April 1, 2025 • 41 mins
Self-promotion can feel uncomfortable—especially for introverted, thoughtful, or reserved Thinkydoers. But what if sharing your impact didn’t have to feel like cringey “bragging?”
In this episode, client experience copywriter and founder of The Content Witches, Nailah King, joins host Sara Lobkovich to explore how to craft authentic client stories that go beyond traditional case studies. Nailah shares practical strategies for telling compelling stories that showcase your work—even when your impact isn’t easily measured in revenue or metrics.
Learn how to manage rejection sensitivity and build confidence in sharing your work stories; and, how to create marketing materials that align with your values instead of squeezing your unique approach into conventional formats.
Episode Highlights:
- Why traditional case studies don’t work for every business and how to tell client stories differently
- Strategies for showcasing your impact without relying on revenue-based metrics
- Managing rejection sensitivity and building confidence in sharing your work
- How introverted and low-energy Thinkydoers can approach self-promotion authentically
- Aligning your marketing materials with your values instead of forcing them into conventional formats
- Practical storytelling techniques to make your work more visible and engaging
- The emotional side of marketing—navigating vulnerability, rejection, and self-doubt
- Nailah’s personal journey and lessons learned from working with values-driven clients
- First steps to crafting client stories that feel natural, honest, and impactful
Key Concepts Explored:
- Authentic Storytelling & Client Impact
- Why traditional case studies don’t work for every business and how to create meaningful client stories
- Strategies for showcasing impact without relying on revenue-based metrics
- The power of storytelling to make your work more visible and engaging
- Self-Promotion for Introverts & Low-Energy Thinkydoers
- How to market yourself authentically without feeling like you’re bragging
- Overcoming the fear of visibility and rejection sensitivity
- Values-Aligned Marketing & Ethical Storytelling
- Creating marketing materials that reflect your values rather than fitting into conventional formats
- The emotional side of sharing your work—navigating vulnerability, self-doubt, and rejection
- How ethical storytelling can help build stronger client relationships and trust
- Building Confidence & Overcoming Rejection Sensitivity
- Understanding rejection sensitivity and how it affects self-promotion
- Strategies for developing confidence in sharing your work and experiences
- First steps to telling client stories in a way that feels natural and impactful
Notable Quotes:
"I don't get to tell you what you found valuable at the end of the day. I can ask questions that help you explore that, but I don't get to determine the most important feature or experience that you had with us working together." - Nailah King (00:05:00)
"Not all of us have work that fits into soundbites and all the attention is paid to getting us to squeeze our work into soundbites." - Sara Lobkovich (00:16:00)
"Honor your energetics, honor your process, honor the format. If it's accessible to you, hire someone. If not, there are ways to do this work that are just easier. But you don't have to miss out, and you don't have to feel excluded. These stories are for us as well." - Nailah King (00:43:00)
Chapters:
[00:00:00] Welcome to Thinkydoers podcast and introduction
[00:01:00] Introduction to Nailah King and why Sara invited her on the podcast
[00:03:00]...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.
Thinkydoers are those of us drawnto deep work where thinking is
working — but we don't stop there.
We're compelled to move the work frominsight to idea, through the messy
middle, to find courage and confidenceto put our thoughts into action.
I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich.
(00:23):
I'm a strategy coach, a huge goal-settingand attainment nerd, and board-certified
health and wellness coach, working atthe overlap of work, life well-being.
I'm also a Thinkydoer.
I'm here to help others find moresatisfaction, less frustration, less
friction, and more flow in our work.
(00:46):
My mission is to help changemakers likeyou transform our workplaces and world.
So let's get started.
Hello, friends!
Nailah King is here with us today.
And Nailah is a copywriterwith a specific specialty.
We met when my business bestieSarah Moon asked if I would
(01:10):
do a client story for her.
Nailah writes Sarah's case studies,but they're actually client stories,
not your typical case study.
I had a really awesome experienceworking with Nailah as a client's
client, and I wanted to bring her onbecause she has a unique perspective
on helping us more shy, introverted,low-spoon Thinkydoer types with
(01:34):
storytelling, especially when we feel liketraditional approaches to case studies
and marketing just don't fit for us.
Nailah and I have a chat about settingyourself up for success with these
kinds of getting people to talk aboutyou and what you do, which is really
getting them to talk about themselvesand their experience with you.
And that doesn't justapply to business owners.
(01:56):
This can also be applied to buildingyour reputation within a workplace
with kind of internal word-of-mouth.
Some of the same principles apply, andNailah has some guidance for us on how
we can overcome some of the barriers thatsome of us have in sharing our impact.
So, if you've ever struggled withasking clients or stakeholders to share
their experience working with you,this episode is specifically for you.
(02:20):
All right, before we dive in, we are inthe launch of You Are a Strategist: Use
No-BS OKRs to Get Big Things Done, myfirst book, We already achieved a top new
release badge in one of our categorieson Amazon, even before the book was
released, while it's just in pre-order.
So I am super excited and if you've beenhere for a while, I want to thank you for
(02:45):
your support around the book and gettingit through its process and into the
world, You can go to youareastrategist.comThe very first release is an
ebook release and then paperback,hardback, and audiobook will follow.
Asking for help is my kryptonite,but I'm asking for help.
We need amplification in socialmedia and with the book review sites.
(03:06):
We need reviewers.
There are lots of ways to support.
And then of course, wealso need book sales.
So visit you are a strategist.comfor more information.
And again, thank you so much.
All right, folks, I havea really big treat today.
Nailah is here.
We met when my business bestie,Sarah Moon, asked if I would do
(03:30):
a client testimonial for her.
And quick shout out to Sarah Moonbecause she's brought incredible
people into my business orbit.
Sarah is a, I would just call her astrategist, but she has specialties
in SEO, and web stuff, and content.
She's my right hand when itcomes to business strategy.
And Nailah writes her case studiesfor her, but they're client stories.
(03:56):
And so we got to talking, we got toknow each other while we were doing the
interview, also became business besties.
And I wanted to bring Nailahon to help us shy, low-spoon,
introverted types with storytelling.
Go ahead and introduce yourself,tell us who you are and what you do.
(04:17):
I am Nailah King, a client experiencecopywriter, and strategist, and
founder of The Content Witches.
And I help values-led strategists,consultants, and facilitators by
creating client success stories thatbuild trust, deepen connections,
and inspire their community.
It's different, though, whatyou do, than most case studies.
(04:37):
So tell me a little bit about what youdo differently and what your method is.
I have a different approachthan your standard case study.
And there's nothing wrong withthe standard case study — if
you like it, I love it.
But I felt like it couldbe exclusive for me.
I am awkward, and I don't havethe biggest client Rolodex, so I'm
(05:03):
typically looking for clients tofeature that have more unique problems
or challenges or are doing the bulkof their work that they do with their
clients is more of a "done-with-you".
They may not necessarily be able tosay that they like 10X-ed their income.
Some clients, speaking of SarahMoon, are obviously able to
(05:25):
create that transformation.
But other folks are makingimpact in different ways.
Like a lot of folks, I'mthe first test case of this.
And I just struggled because I didn'talways have that "I 10X-ed this,"
"I 10X-ed that," "I doubled this,""I tripled that." I found that like
really challenging in my own work, andthen I was finding other like-minded
(05:46):
people who were having the same issues.
They do great work with theirclients, they have great
relationships with their clients.
But when it came to the sort of casestudy format, they couldn't really
fit their process or frameworkor the results into that format.
It didn't work for them.
So they assumed thatthey weren't for them.
It wasn't accessible to them.
That's how that started.
(06:07):
And then there's themarketing part of this, right?
Which is when I create client stories,it's more of a comprehensive conversation.
You can do thatconversation in 30 minutes.
I typically don't.
For two reasons.
One, I don't like to censor y'all.
I like you to talk, talk yourstuff, whatever that stuff is.
We have questions, obviously, thereis some form of structure, but if
(06:30):
something I've asked you is leadingyou towards a wider topic or even a
tangent, I want you to express yourself.
I want us to follow that tangent.
I'm not here to control or censor people.
Some of those tangents lead to reallygreat results and conversations that,
if I had asked a generic questionor went down a more case-study-like
(06:50):
route, we would have missed.
And those are also the things that myclients are — they're going through
my notes and going through the storiesbeing like, "I never knew they felt that
way." "I never knew that was importantto them." "This is something that I
actually see some of my prospectiveclients, people who are going on
discovering calls, being concerned about.
They need to hear this story." Becausein a lot of ways, this one story is
(07:14):
reflective of their other wider clients.
And again, from the marketing perspective,I like to create a lot of long-form
versions of this so I can chop thingsup and consistently have a lot of
marketing assets to share, without alwayshaving to go back to square one because
that's how I felt with testimonials.
I do a project, and thenthe project would wrap.
(07:35):
I have to go to the testimonial, andit's been a year or two, or maybe three.
And because of how testimonialsgenerally work, there's sort
of a life cycle to those.
I don't necessarily use testimonialsfrom the beginning of my business.
Not because those people aren't valuable.
I cherish our work together, but halfof those services I don't have anymore.
So I needed something more evergreen.
(07:56):
So I try to create that in myown work, but also for my client.
So, what really is different aboutwhat you do is, you don't just make
the case study that is, "I got Xresult" or "the soundbite." You
develop stories about people's clients.
So you do interviews, and then you developa story that's about the client, not just
(08:18):
about the service or the service provider.
Do you remember whatbrought you to that idea?
I feel like those stories are intertwined.
The story of what my client isdoing and the story of what I'm
doing, to me, they are tethered.
We can't have one without the other.
However, I'm all about centering theclient and their experience, because
(08:39):
we're often told you have to lookfor these types of results about
an experience that I'm not having.
I don't get to tell you what youfound valuable at the end of the day.
I can ask questions that help you explorethat, but I don't get to determine the
most important feature or experiencethat you had with us working together.
(09:00):
And I think that's also beautiful,but it's also a missed opportunity.
What was told to go forsoundbite-only opportunities, or
money- or profit-based things.
And those do have value,but you miss things.
So I think when I was starting to do myown testimonials or helping others with
their testimonials, I felt like we weremissing things and this is a slight aside.
(09:23):
But one of the reasons why I ditchedmy novel project is because I went
through the whole thing and realizedI was telling the wrong story.
This was not what people needed to know.
It's not the direction I needed to go in.
And as it relates to clients andbusiness, I think there's this notion
that, probably because of existingframeworks, they will remain redacted,
(09:44):
but there are existing frameworks thattell you, you have to follow a certain
journey and you have to go a certain way.
And that's just not people's experience.
People who are often left out areobviously the people I mentioned
who have impact beyond profit.
But what if you workwith that client again?
What happens to that story?
What if you don't havea linear transformation?
And this happens a lot with low-spoonsfolks, if you didn't have the time
(10:07):
or the energy to implement thatstrategy until a year later, two
years later, three years later?
All of these people who are havingthese great experiences, but there's
nuance to that, we're being left out.
How I thought to do it and pivot away fromthat was, I just would see so many stories
just on the cutting room floor, becauseagain, I couldn't make them work into that
structure that is universally accepted.
(10:30):
And so I decided to createmore or less my own and started
to ask different questions.
This is exactly why Iwanted to have you on.
I have just realized that marketingthe way we're supposed to is not
compatible with my brain or myexistence after marketing the way
we're supposed to for 30 years.
You saw how the status quo ofmarketing wasn't working for you and
(10:53):
what the missed opportunities were,and decided to do your own thing.
In terms of the quality of the work thatyou do for clients, it's super impactful.
I felt honored when Sarah asked if Iwould do a client story with you because
it's not just good for Sarah, it's greatfor me too, to show up in that way.
I think you've found a way to tellstories that feel more compatible
(11:17):
for those of us who are values-based,not just revenue-oriented.
So how do you think about that as abalance when you're working with clients,
between, our lack of natural wiringfor capitalism and still be writing
client stories that support a business?
There are some people, and evenstories I've written about where the
(11:40):
person was like, "I need to get thisrevenue up." I'm not negating those
stories; I'm not mad at those stories.
But the majority of people, and I'vewritten about 15 of these in almost two
years, so quite a few across differentsectors, I did some for a farmer,
for example, who runs not-for-profit.
And the trend that I always noticeis even in instances where they say
(12:03):
that money is the factor, they'reactually looking for something else.
So I think I always look to the client: What are they looking for when they (12:08):
undefined
go into this interaction or projector this conversation or what-have-you?
What are they looking for?
And again, there are exceptionsto every rule, that's life.
But nine times out of ten, people aretrying to gain more clarity, trying to
be in a space where they can explorethings with the practitioner or with
(12:32):
the person that they're working with.
They're not always looking forthese profit-based results to
be centered even in their ownstory because you're real humans.
People have to make money.
I acknowledge that, but I don'tknow that we spend our entire
existence, our raison d'être, justthinking about revenue all the time.
(12:53):
I think that it's framed that waybecause it's a, it's something that
is simpler or more linear to quantify.
It's easy to say, "I invested X, I madeX. The overall profit is X." Whereas,
I think it's more challenging to sayhow someone helped you clarify your
(13:13):
thought process, or in the case of Sarah,helped you build your own framework.
Because the result of that isgoing to take years, potentially.
Not because it's not effective, but tobe able to track all the various nuanced
ways of how it's helped you, you'regoing to be tracking that for years.
So I think "beyond profit" isdefinitely how I frame this.
(13:35):
But there's also so many things thatclients want from us that are beyond that.
And yes, it helps me becausethose aren't necessarily the
results that I bring exclusively.
But I think it helps clients because theydecide, you decide how you want to be
engaged with and what you're looking forand the results that you want to celebrate
(13:57):
and the things that you want to achieve.
I feel like the challenge with alwayspushing profit-based results or even
quantitative results is that what theclient actually came to you to do?
I understand an instance where you'regoing to like an accountant or a money
coach, money-related results make sense.
But if you're going to, like,even a copywriter or a system
(14:18):
specialist, does that make sense?
Is that really what every person'sgoing into any partnership looking for?
So again, I just let the client determine.
What's most valuable.
What often happens to you in theinterviews that I have is we'll get to
the end of the call and someone willremark like, "Oh, I didn’t realize
that this not profit-based facetactually meant a lot to me," because we
(14:41):
spent a lot of time talking about it.
Whereas any other resultsare very cut and dry.
They're like, "I made thismoney, I upped this traffic," and
it's a very short conversation.
Whereas how my clients made them feelis a so much longer of a conversation.
And that tells me in five yearswhere they've moved on and they're
so successful, and they met allthose money-based benchmarks.
(15:02):
They're going to remember that youwere the client that made them feel
good and made them feel proud oftheir business and gave them clarity.
What you're hitting on is Not all of ushave work that fits into soundbites and
all the attention is paid to gettingus to squeeze our work into soundbites.
And what you're doing is saying, "No.If you're a passion-driven, values-led,
(15:25):
not a soundbite service providerbusiness, you've got this long-tail
impact, then tell that story." But we'realso the ones who might be the least
comfortable talking about ourselves.
Do you see that often?
Is it clients that struggle to talkabout themselves that you work with
I think it's not so much that theystruggled to talk about themselves,
(15:50):
but like, back and forth, "Iswhat I'm doing flashy enough?
Is it results-based enough?
Is it worth doing the client story for?"I had someone recently who does, backend
stuff say, "Well, my transformationsdon't have an emotional or destructive
impact." And I'm like, "You sure?"Because if you got a messy backend, and
(16:12):
that's been bugging the heck out of you.
And you come in and you make that thingworkable, there's an emotional impact.
There's relief.
There's reduction of stress.
And then I could see the wheelsturning to them, to be like, "Oh,
that does have value," becausethey've been told what they do is
maybe not that flashy or exciting orwouldn't have an emotional impact.
(16:36):
But we are impacted emotionallybecause business is personal.
We go to a service provider for exampleto help us with something, and that
something is not always measurableby some benchmark, or metric, or
something that's numbers-based.
But you're absolutelytransforming someone's experience.
(16:56):
We're also in a culture wherewe're told to minimize what we do.
So, you know this personally, I'm alwaysthe person who's like, "I'm not minimizing
that for you. If you have something thatyou're proud of that was as a result of
this partnership, we're going to be realloud about it." It's not small to me.
The other part of it is gettingcomfortable with the fact
that you're making an impact.
(17:18):
And even in my emails, every 10emails, I'm always like, "You're
making an impact. I promise."Doesn't matter how small it is.
It matters to people and ourclient stories matter to people.
A story will be up.
And it will really resonate withsomeone, and it will motivate
them, and they'll feel seen.
And I think that's the powerof sharing those stories.
It can feel so lonely in businessif you're not like everybody else.
(17:42):
And there's more of us out there whoare, low-spoons, low energy, whatever
term you use that's affirmative for you.
Don't make yourself small.
You are making an impact, so letthat be the thing that drives you
I will never say just do somethingand push past the discomfort.
But really reflect on what you're doingand know that you are making an impact,
(18:05):
and other people should hear thatstory, including your future clients.
And however you choose to share that willonly benefit you and your future clients.
I think part of the subtext herethat's also really important, but
asking for help as my kryptonite.
So I try and do everything myself.
This conversation isjust reminding me that.
A, we can't do everything ourselvesbecause different people see
(18:28):
different things in our work.
And B, we can find people to work withwho are compatible with how we work.
so I think it is just importantto say, when you do feel different
than the business mainstream,work hard to find your people.
You hit on something reallyimportant about the emotional
component of the client stories.
(18:50):
Talking about Thinkydoers, a lot of usstay stuck in the work or in our own
brains or in the thought work piece of it.
And I really struggle to get out of theteaching mode and into the emotional
mode or the resonant mode with clients.
And I think that's somethingyou've developed a method
to do really, really well.
(19:11):
So if we think a little bit about.
how do these storytelling practices applyoutside of the realm of client stories?
Do you have any advice for folkswho struggle with making that
switch into storytelling, whetherit's about their business or about
the work they do as an employee?
Yeah, I always start panicked when Ihave to talk about anything to do with
(19:37):
me or anything in my storytelling.
But then I sort of channel the personwho needs to hear what I'm saying.
Pick a format that works foryou, whether that's a voice
note, whether that's writing.
I always go from the sense of,like, what did I need to hear?
What do my people need to hear?
And I go from there.
(19:59):
With your book, it's aboutfinding yourself as a strategist.
And I think I would approach the doc orthe voice note around what did you need
to hear before you were on this journey?
Because it's probably really,really important to somebody.
Feeling seen and recognized by peopleis so much part of client stories, but
(20:23):
also part of storytelling and messaging.
And not in the hard, copywritingformulas that are like, "I've been
there too." Sharing your experience.
And just leaning on what you needed tohear, what would have been helpful, and
you hope that it resonates with people,but I know that it, in your case, it will.
Approaching the blank cursor with thenotion that, for now, you're talking to
a best friend, or a version of yourself,let's say, who needs to hear what you're
(20:46):
about to say, and then tweak accordingly.
And I think that just settlesmy nerves a little bit more.
Because you talk about being inteaching mode, and service mode,
and I think that's a form of that.
You're being this service tosomebody who needs your support.
And I think that makes it easier for me,personally, when I get super panicked.
Because I always worry, too much LinkedIn.
(21:08):
I always worry, like, "Is this likea corny LinkedIn post? Is this like
a gotcha Instagram post?" I getreally caught up in the format.
Figure out what your format is.
If you're someone who loves to writea voice note, record that, there's
some transcription technology you canuse to get that in the text version.
If you're a writer, do that.
Riff with a partner or a peerif that's easier, and that's
(21:30):
just how I get the storytellingstarted and then go from there.
So I don't know about you.
I am the world's most shy person.
So I love what I do.
I believe in my work.
My clients are incredible.
I am still incredibly shy when itcomes to talking to other people.
So, Even with how intimate myrelationships are with my clients, I feel
(21:55):
weird asking them to tell their stories.
Do you ever have days where you'refeeling friction about getting on
the line and talking to someone?
And if you do, how do you manage that?
I mean, I always struggled withlike feeling like I'm annoying
poeple because I have a lot ofavoidance initially when I was
(22:15):
approaching my old clients.
I like kind of created this narrativein my head that its like its annoying
to be asked questions It must be soannoying for them to be approached.
They probably didn't like the work anyway.
It just went to spiral town.
So, what I do and what I findhelpful in the client stories
perspective is I just like to betransparent about the whole process.
(22:37):
That helps me, and it makes it easierbecause we're getting on the same page.
I sent y'all almost like a welcomepacket, what to expect, what the
interview is going to be like, justto let people get their bearings.
And if they have concerns,they can reach out beforehand.
And I haven't had a lot of that, butyou know, there's been one or two
people who have said, "Ooh, I feellike I have to rehearse or I have to
(23:00):
know everything." And I'm like, "Thisis just meant to be a very casual
conversation." So I do have this momentto be like, "Well, I'm a small guy.
I don't know, why would these peoplewant to talk to me?" I just try to think
about, again, who am I trying to support?
And there's somebody who probablyreally needs to learn about that story.
I know that sounds really corny,but there's somebody who's gonna
(23:22):
really resonate with that story.
So, when I get really nervous orthink, "Gosh, maybe they think I'm
the most annoying woman alive." Iremember that people have free will.
They can decline to talk to me.
And also, that they're probably eagerto share their story too, and to talk
to me and put their story out there, andhave folks learn not just about their
business, but their journey in life.
(23:44):
Because, again, business can belonely and I think even more lonely
if you don't fit the sort of mold.
I was in a redacted group, andI just remember feeling so alone
because I wasn't the archetype.
I would basically be like, "No, I'mtoo tired to do that. I'm not doing a
(24:04):
challenge. I don't have enough energyfor that." It just was very alienating.
So, I always thinkabout, who can this help?
Who is this in service to?
How can I make sure thatpeople have a good experience.
I do have a coaching background,so I try to create that kind of
braver space when we chat as well.
And again, knowing yourwhy is also really helpful.
It's helpful to move forward.
(24:25):
If you find it like quite dysregulating,I don't I say don't overdo it.
It could just be finding a formatthat's more accessible to you.
So some people use tools likeVideoAsk, which is pre-recorded.
So, you would pre-record your questions,and then the client would record, or
write, or audio record their responses.
(24:46):
So some of this is like tweakinga format that works for you too.
That actually gets me to mylast substantive question.
It's not just shyness, I strugglereally hard with a phenomenon called
rejection sensitivity that comeswith neurodivergence for a lot of us.
if you struggle with rejectionsensitivity, which isn't just
about rejection, it is alsoabout how we receive feedback and
(25:09):
other messages from other people.
So the obvious answer is (25:12):
Find someone like you and hire them.
But do you have any other tipsfor folks who are wired that way?
Give yourself some grace.
It's
scary to ask people, and I thinkit's ridiculous that people are like,
"Well, just ask, just don't be scared."Like, oh, okay, never thought of that.
It can be scary.
(25:32):
It can be vulnerable, because typically,your project goes well, and you probably
aren't going to get a lot of surprises.
But if you, are experiencing orhave this experience with rejection
sensitivity, or you're just, I like tocall it my "brain siren" — just starts.
I like to think that she's my biggest op.
She's telling me (25:49):
"They hated you.
Every email's a lie.
It was the worst.
They are going to trash youall of a sudden." And that's
like an extreme of that.
I know that's not everyone's experience,but I just want to dispel the
notion that you shouldn't be scared.
Because for some of us,it's very vulnerable.
And it's also hard to talk yourself out ofthinking the worst with feedback for us.
(26:12):
It can be scary.
And I think like acknowledgingthat to some level helps or is
at least a good starting point.
And then two, you don'thave to approach everyone.
My process is a mix of righttiming, right client, right story.
I think that does take the pressure off.
You don't have to ask every single person.
(26:34):
But usually The cues of who to askand who's right to ask, and therefore
someone who's more likely to say yes,are around picking people who have given
you feedback throughout the process.
They're like positive the whole project.
They haven't waited till theend to give commendations.
And it could just be notes in aGoogle Doc, notes in an email.
It doesn't necessarily have to beparagraph after paragraph of praise,
(26:57):
although I'm sure all of you arelovely and you get that all the time.
Which isn't to say that you'restacking the cards to make sure that
you absolutely get a positive review.
But we want a generative one, right?
We want someone that showcasesour expertise and their
genuine client experience.
If you're nervous about potentiallygetting less-than-favorable feedback,
(27:18):
I'm not going to be somebodywho's like, "That won't happen."
Because I don't know everything.
But I do think lean into chatting withfolks who despite your best efforts,
that they are enjoying the experienceand they want to share and they are
rooting for you to continue to growyour business, and build your business.
And I know all y'all aresmart and amazing people.
There's tons of those people.
(27:39):
Again, it's not to say that if that didn'thappen, you shouldn't approach a client,
but I think it does take the pressure off.
Start with people who you are confidentthat enjoyed their experience: A, and B:
Have a lot to say about that experience.
You don't have to check in with everyone.
And you also don't have to be not scaredif that's something that you feel.
I think one of the thingsthat you're hitting on is
(28:01):
something that's so important.
I hadn't thought about the words thisway before listening to you, but for
those of us who have some rejectionsensitivity, it's important that
we set ourselves up for success.
And that's what you're describing is.
Pick the people where you thinkyou're more likely to succeed.
You don't have to start in the deepend, and it's okay to be nervous.
(28:24):
Which I think is just greatlife principles for folks
that struggle with RSD.
Yeah.
And I just did a summit, and Iwas saying, you also don't always
have to start from scratch.
Go to somebody who gave you a testimonial.
See what they said.
Is there anything in that testimonialthat you want to explore more?
Is there anything that they're alludingto that you want to know more about?
(28:44):
Approaching people you alreadyapproach may seem counterintuitive,
but a testimonial, depending onhow you do them, whether you do a
form or however you structure that,is that start of that journey.
Because you typically get a testimonialpretty soon after a project ends, and
that tends to be more about your worktogether, which obviously still has
(29:05):
value, but it's less about your results.
So, I always think you can even takeoff even more added pressure by just
going to somebody you've alreadygone to for a smaller capacity.
And start having a longerconversations about that experience.
Because I'm sure they haveplenty to say as well.
There's still a possibility that they'llsay, actually, that's it, that's all.
But it's a starting pointthat I think to me feels more
(29:28):
approachable and more accessible.
And certainly to my clients, I'm like,"You've wrapped a project, now you're
going to do it." If you're thinkingabout long term and you want to get
started, well, go back a little.
There might be some gems in there.
I think that helps reduce anotherone of my personal barriers.
You've hit on that client storiesdon't have to just be testimonials
(29:49):
right after the work finishes.
What's actually juicy, and interesting andwould resonate might happen independently
of the actual hands-on work, long after.
Now my wheels are turning aboutwhich clients would make the most
interesting and diverse client stories.
One of the things that when I worked withyou on the client story for Sarah Moon,
(30:12):
you create such a warm, gentle space forpeople that you get on the line with.
Is that on purpose, or can you tell meanything about how you do that for folks?
I Coaching helped.
So I took a coaching course.
It's accredited.
It's not by a phony, it's legit.
And the purview of that isbasically to not lead people.
(30:36):
Don't follow the galloping hooves.
I think that comes from a place ofwanting a particular type of result.
So I do build questions aroundthe client's goals, but I also
leave lots of space for us totalk about whatever comes up.
And I know that's probablycounterintuitive for other people
to be like, why would you let aconversation spiral or like just go in
directions that maybe they shouldn't?
(30:58):
But I think that's where a lot ofreally interesting insights lie.
Is the tangents, theside stories, the asides.
I will often watch y'all realize inreal-time how much something meant
to you that you had no idea mattereduntil we have that conversation.
So part of it is, yes, I have thiscoaching background, which helps me (I
(31:19):
hope) create braver spaces for y'all.
And even before that, I do givea sort of packet that walks you
through the process and gives youthe opportunity to ask any questions.
But I don't share questionsreally ahead of time.
I fear that it makes folks nervous,and also that they have to give me a
particular answer, which is stressful.
(31:41):
If you think that I'm lookingfor some special answer, I'm not
looking for some special answer.
I'm looking for you to give me theanswer that reflects your experience,
because you're the boss on this call.
I'm only timekeeping.
You decide what mattersto you, as you should.
You're the client.
I don't know why this is controversial.
But it would be great, I wouldlove the power to say "I want to
(32:04):
showcase one particular result andwho cares what the client thinks." In
theory, wouldn't that be so simple,but it doesn't work like that.
So definitely coaching background,transparency around the process.
Just having open conversationswith folks really helps.
And I also don't censor y'all.
You can talk about whatever itis that comes to comes to mind.
(32:25):
And it's up to me, because I am thewriter, the story shaper, to decide
what stays in and what doesn't stay in.
And also, if you've divulged somethingthat you have consented for me to know,
but potentially not the client, andcertainly not the public, I omit those.
from the final product.
So there's obviously privacy and, securityaround the conversations that we have.
That's how I build each conversation.
(32:45):
And it is longer than averagethan how other people do.
I did have someone say, "90 minutes,that's so long." And I’m like, really?
Because I be kiki-ing withpeople, and we always run over.
We have a great time.
And I like to think we have fun.
When I was sitting down to talk to you asa client story subject, I was so nervous.
(33:06):
I just wanted to talk about how awesomeSarah Moon is, which is easy to do.
But it took me some time to getinto the vibe of actually having the
conversation instead of just trying towrite a client story for Sarah Moon.
And so your patience is reallyeffective at helping people make
that transition and settle in.
But then you bring up such a good pointthat, you do a 90-minute interview
(33:30):
and you wind up with a few minutesof a finished product of a client's
story that's the absolute best parts.
It's a really good reminder that wedon't get our stories in one take,
in a soundbite, like they start outas these long winding back-and-forths
between two people, and thenthat's what uncovers the best bits.
(33:54):
I just think the takeaway hereis if you're someone like me
who struggles with it, then findsomeone like you to work with.
Because by asking for help, I would windup with a completely different client
story than if I tried to do it myself.
Yeah, I mean, you're a smart cookie.
I think you can do anything.
However, I think that'swhat I bring to the table.
(34:17):
that y'all are the storyteller.
I'm the story shaper.
I take that raw material and thenI put that together and make sure
that together we write somethingthat's reflective of your experience.
Because I don't want to tella story that isn't your story.
I also like to write things that peoplewant to read and people want to share.
Because I've also had people approachme to be like, I've had problems
(34:39):
in the past of clients sharingthis, and I'm like, interesting.
I don't have that problem.
I've never encountered that.
But I'm also writing for thereader, I'm balancing things.
I want it to represent yourstory and not feel manufactured
to feel like it's a true story.
I want to showcase the client'sexpertise, but also there's a
readership that has to read this, right?
I know people think that a client storyis more of a sales document, and it is.
(35:02):
It's probably one of ten (minimum)pieces of content that people are
reading before they make a decision.
So, it better be interesting.
Is there anything else that youwould want to offer in terms of
advice or key takeaways for folks?
The key takeaways are (35:17):
you can find something that works for you.
I know gathering insights can feel likea pain, and it can be a longer process.
I personally take up tosix weeks, assuming that
the energy is there.
Sometimes, I extend projects,which I'm very transparent
about with all my clients.
It can be something that takesa while, but it is worth it.
(35:38):
Because you don't have to go back to thedrawing board all the time, which is what
I don't like about social media, whichis a tirade for a different episode.
But you are building a basis anda foundation to always share.
Half the time I just send the direct link.
But occasionally, when I'm feelingspicy, I will include different quotes
and other parts of it broken up.
(35:59):
So you're creating a longtermevergreen asset, that's
what's important to remember.
It's okay to feel a bit awkwardabout approaching clients, but you
are making an impact with them,and they want to support you.
Nine times out of ten that's the case.
And I think in the 10th case where it'snot, you probably know that already
before going into that scenario.
(36:20):
I think the people who didn't lovesomething are quite visible, quite loud.
Honor those feelings, but also acknowledgethat people do want to support you.
And three, it's about the client,and their experience, and their story
matters, but also there's somebodywho wants to work with you and they
just need slightly more information.
(36:42):
But they're also looking for someonewho's a bit like them, maybe not fully.
But who has similar experiencesand has worked with you and that's
going to tie everything together.
So the TL;DR of this is, it's worthit, but I don't want you to feel
like you have to push through justbecause I'm a person who's an expert.
It's never going to happen.
I think honor your energetics, honoryour process, honor the format.
(37:04):
If it's accessible to you, hire someone.
If not, there are ways to dothis work are just easier.
But you don't have to miss out, andyou don't have to feel excluded.
These stories are for us as well.
One of my most important keyresults for myself right now is
to hear, I feel seen or variationson that theme from folks more.
(37:25):
So we actually count it.
that's a key result that wekeep track of when we hear it.
When I can finally pull the triggeron client stories, like that number
is going to go up by like 10x, 20x,like it's going to be a big jump.
I'm really excited.
If people want to learn more about youand your work, where can they find you?
They can find me at my website,www.thecontentwitches.ca.
(37:48):
I am most entertaining on Threads.
I’m a ghost—a specter—onInstagram, but technically there.
And I'm trying to get BlueSky going.
I kind of posted and ghosted.
I'm so sorry.
But I'm, trying.
And LinkedIn, begrudgingly.
Yeah, it's the same for me.
I'm trying so hard to get off ofThreads and onto BlueSky, but man,
that character count just kills me.
(38:10):
It's not enough.
Thank you for joining andlistening to this conversation with
Nailah King about storytelling.
I wanna thank Nailah fordoing this episode with me.
I've been really looking forward toit, and I wish I could have recorded
all the way till we hung up becauseafter we dropped the recording,
we had a great conversation about.
(38:32):
The power of long form storytelling forthose of us who are wired differently
compared to the blips of social mediathat sometimes just drain and distract us.
But that's an episode for another time.
If you wanna learn more about Nala andher work with client stories, you can
find her at www.thecontentwitches.ca.
(38:55):
She is also most entertainingon threads, as she mentioned,
and you can find her there.
I'm gonna spell this one outat N A I L A H dot Z dot KING.
So nailah.z.king.
Now, don't forget it is book launchmonth, so you can find all that
(39:15):
information at youarestrategist.com.
Thank you so much for all ofyour support and for listening
today, and I'll see you next time.
All right, friends, That's it for today.
stay in the loop with everythinggoing on around here by
visiting findrc.co/newsletterand joining my mailing list.
(39:38):
Got questions?
My email addresses are too hard tospell, so visit findrc.co/contact
and shoot me a note that way.
You'll also find me at@saralobkovich on most of your
favorite social media platforms.
For today's show notes, visitfindrc.co/thinkydoers if there's
(39:59):
someone you'd like featured onthis podcast, drop me a note.
And if you know other Thinkydoers who'dbenefit from this episode, please share.
Your referrals, your word of mouth,and your reviews are much appreciated.
I'm looking forward to the questionsthis episode sparks for you, and I
look forward to seeing you next time.
Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.
Thinkydoers are those of us drawnto deep work where thinking is
working — but we don't stop there.
We're compelled to move the work frominsight to idea, through the messy
middle, to find courage and confidenceto put our thoughts into action.
I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich.
(00:23):
I'm a strategy coach, a huge goal-settingand attainment nerd, and board-certified
health and wellness coach, working atthe overlap of work, life well-being.
I'm also a Thinkydoer.
I'm here to help others find moresatisfaction, less frustration, less
friction, and more flow in our work.
(00:46):
My mission is to help changemakers likeyou transform our workplaces and world.
So let's get started.
Hello, friends!
Nailah King is here with us today.
And Nailah is a copywriterwith a specific specialty.
We met when my business bestieSarah Moon asked if I would
(01:10):
do a client story for her.
Nailah writes Sarah's case studies,but they're actually client stories,
not your typical case study.
I had a really awesome experienceworking with Nailah as a client's
client, and I wanted to bring her onbecause she has a unique perspective
on helping us more shy, introverted,low-spoon Thinkydoer types with
(01:34):
storytelling, especially when we feel liketraditional approaches to case studies
and marketing just don't fit for us.
Nailah and I have a chat about settingyourself up for success with these
kinds of getting people to talk aboutyou and what you do, which is really
getting them to talk about themselvesand their experience with you.
And that doesn't justapply to business owners.
(01:56):
This can also be applied to buildingyour reputation within a workplace
with kind of internal word-of-mouth.
Some of the same principles apply, andNailah has some guidance for us on how
we can overcome some of the barriers thatsome of us have in sharing our impact.
So, if you've ever struggled withasking clients or stakeholders to share
their experience working with you,this episode is specifically for you.
(02:20):
All right, before we dive in, we are inthe launch of You Are a Strategist: Use
No-BS OKRs to Get Big Things Done, myfirst book, We already achieved a top new
release badge in one of our categorieson Amazon, even before the book was
released, while it's just in pre-order.
So I am super excited and if you've beenhere for a while, I want to thank you for
(02:45):
your support around the book and gettingit through its process and into the
world, You can go to youareastrategist.comThe very first release is an
ebook release and then paperback,hardback, and audiobook will follow.
Asking for help is my kryptonite,but I'm asking for help.
We need amplification in socialmedia and with the book review sites.
(03:06):
We need reviewers.
There are lots of ways to support.
And then of course, wealso need book sales.
So visit you are a strategist.comfor more information.
And again, thank you so much.
All right, folks, I havea really big treat today.
Nailah is here.
We met when my business bestie,Sarah Moon, asked if I would do
(03:30):
a client testimonial for her.
And quick shout out to Sarah Moonbecause she's brought incredible
people into my business orbit.
Sarah is a, I would just call her astrategist, but she has specialties
in SEO, and web stuff, and content.
She's my right hand when itcomes to business strategy.
And Nailah writes her case studiesfor her, but they're client stories.
(03:56):
And so we got to talking, we got toknow each other while we were doing the
interview, also became business besties.
And I wanted to bring Nailahon to help us shy, low-spoon,
introverted types with storytelling.
Go ahead and introduce yourself,tell us who you are and what you do.
(04:17):
I am Nailah King, a client experiencecopywriter, and strategist, and
founder of The Content Witches.
And I help values-led strategists,consultants, and facilitators by
creating client success stories thatbuild trust, deepen connections,
and inspire their community.
It's different, though, whatyou do, than most case studies.
(04:37):
So tell me a little bit about what youdo differently and what your method is.
I have a different approachthan your standard case study.
And there's nothing wrong withthe standard case study — if
you like it, I love it.
But I felt like it couldbe exclusive for me.
I am awkward, and I don't havethe biggest client Rolodex, so I'm
(05:03):
typically looking for clients tofeature that have more unique problems
or challenges or are doing the bulkof their work that they do with their
clients is more of a "done-with-you".
They may not necessarily be able tosay that they like 10X-ed their income.
Some clients, speaking of SarahMoon, are obviously able to
(05:25):
create that transformation.
But other folks are makingimpact in different ways.
Like a lot of folks, I'mthe first test case of this.
And I just struggled because I didn'talways have that "I 10X-ed this,"
"I 10X-ed that," "I doubled this,""I tripled that." I found that like
really challenging in my own work, andthen I was finding other like-minded
(05:46):
people who were having the same issues.
They do great work with theirclients, they have great
relationships with their clients.
But when it came to the sort of casestudy format, they couldn't really
fit their process or frameworkor the results into that format.
It didn't work for them.
So they assumed thatthey weren't for them.
It wasn't accessible to them.
That's how that started.
(06:07):
And then there's themarketing part of this, right?
Which is when I create client stories,it's more of a comprehensive conversation.
You can do thatconversation in 30 minutes.
I typically don't.
For two reasons.
One, I don't like to censor y'all.
I like you to talk, talk yourstuff, whatever that stuff is.
We have questions, obviously, thereis some form of structure, but if
(06:30):
something I've asked you is leadingyou towards a wider topic or even a
tangent, I want you to express yourself.
I want us to follow that tangent.
I'm not here to control or censor people.
Some of those tangents lead to reallygreat results and conversations that,
if I had asked a generic questionor went down a more case-study-like
(06:50):
route, we would have missed.
And those are also the things that myclients are — they're going through
my notes and going through the storiesbeing like, "I never knew they felt that
way." "I never knew that was importantto them." "This is something that I
actually see some of my prospectiveclients, people who are going on
discovering calls, being concerned about.
They need to hear this story." Becausein a lot of ways, this one story is
(07:14):
reflective of their other wider clients.
And again, from the marketing perspective,I like to create a lot of long-form
versions of this so I can chop thingsup and consistently have a lot of
marketing assets to share, without alwayshaving to go back to square one because
that's how I felt with testimonials.
I do a project, and thenthe project would wrap.
(07:35):
I have to go to the testimonial, andit's been a year or two, or maybe three.
And because of how testimonialsgenerally work, there's sort
of a life cycle to those.
I don't necessarily use testimonialsfrom the beginning of my business.
Not because those people aren't valuable.
I cherish our work together, but halfof those services I don't have anymore.
So I needed something more evergreen.
(07:56):
So I try to create that in myown work, but also for my client.
So, what really is different aboutwhat you do is, you don't just make
the case study that is, "I got Xresult" or "the soundbite." You
develop stories about people's clients.
So you do interviews, and then you developa story that's about the client, not just
(08:18):
about the service or the service provider.
Do you remember whatbrought you to that idea?
I feel like those stories are intertwined.
The story of what my client isdoing and the story of what I'm
doing, to me, they are tethered.
We can't have one without the other.
However, I'm all about centering theclient and their experience, because
(08:39):
we're often told you have to lookfor these types of results about
an experience that I'm not having.
I don't get to tell you what youfound valuable at the end of the day.
I can ask questions that help you explorethat, but I don't get to determine the
most important feature or experiencethat you had with us working together.
(09:00):
And I think that's also beautiful,but it's also a missed opportunity.
What was told to go forsoundbite-only opportunities, or
money- or profit-based things.
And those do have value,but you miss things.
So I think when I was starting to do myown testimonials or helping others with
their testimonials, I felt like we weremissing things and this is a slight aside.
(09:23):
But one of the reasons why I ditchedmy novel project is because I went
through the whole thing and realizedI was telling the wrong story.
This was not what people needed to know.
It's not the direction I needed to go in.
And as it relates to clients andbusiness, I think there's this notion
that, probably because of existingframeworks, they will remain redacted,
(09:44):
but there are existing frameworks thattell you, you have to follow a certain
journey and you have to go a certain way.
And that's just not people's experience.
People who are often left out areobviously the people I mentioned
who have impact beyond profit.
But what if you workwith that client again?
What happens to that story?
What if you don't havea linear transformation?
And this happens a lot with low-spoonsfolks, if you didn't have the time
(10:07):
or the energy to implement thatstrategy until a year later, two
years later, three years later?
All of these people who are havingthese great experiences, but there's
nuance to that, we're being left out.
How I thought to do it and pivot away fromthat was, I just would see so many stories
just on the cutting room floor, becauseagain, I couldn't make them work into that
structure that is universally accepted.
(10:30):
And so I decided to createmore or less my own and started
to ask different questions.
This is exactly why Iwanted to have you on.
I have just realized that marketingthe way we're supposed to is not
compatible with my brain or myexistence after marketing the way
we're supposed to for 30 years.
You saw how the status quo ofmarketing wasn't working for you and
(10:53):
what the missed opportunities were,and decided to do your own thing.
In terms of the quality of the work thatyou do for clients, it's super impactful.
I felt honored when Sarah asked if Iwould do a client story with you because
it's not just good for Sarah, it's greatfor me too, to show up in that way.
I think you've found a way to tellstories that feel more compatible
(11:17):
for those of us who are values-based,not just revenue-oriented.
So how do you think about that as abalance when you're working with clients,
between, our lack of natural wiringfor capitalism and still be writing
client stories that support a business?
There are some people, and evenstories I've written about where the
(11:40):
person was like, "I need to get thisrevenue up." I'm not negating those
stories; I'm not mad at those stories.
But the majority of people, and I'vewritten about 15 of these in almost two
years, so quite a few across differentsectors, I did some for a farmer,
for example, who runs not-for-profit.
And the trend that I always noticeis even in instances where they say
(12:03):
that money is the factor, they'reactually looking for something else.
So I think I always look to the client: What are they looking for when they (12:08):
undefined
go into this interaction or projector this conversation or what-have-you?
What are they looking for?
And again, there are exceptionsto every rule, that's life.
But nine times out of ten, people aretrying to gain more clarity, trying to
be in a space where they can explorethings with the practitioner or with
(12:32):
the person that they're working with.
They're not always looking forthese profit-based results to
be centered even in their ownstory because you're real humans.
People have to make money.
I acknowledge that, but I don'tknow that we spend our entire
existence, our raison d'être, justthinking about revenue all the time.
(12:53):
I think that it's framed that waybecause it's a, it's something that
is simpler or more linear to quantify.
It's easy to say, "I invested X, I madeX. The overall profit is X." Whereas,
I think it's more challenging to sayhow someone helped you clarify your
(13:13):
thought process, or in the case of Sarah,helped you build your own framework.
Because the result of that isgoing to take years, potentially.
Not because it's not effective, but tobe able to track all the various nuanced
ways of how it's helped you, you'regoing to be tracking that for years.
So I think "beyond profit" isdefinitely how I frame this.
(13:35):
But there's also so many things thatclients want from us that are beyond that.
And yes, it helps me becausethose aren't necessarily the
results that I bring exclusively.
But I think it helps clients because theydecide, you decide how you want to be
engaged with and what you're looking forand the results that you want to celebrate
(13:57):
and the things that you want to achieve.
I feel like the challenge with alwayspushing profit-based results or even
quantitative results is that what theclient actually came to you to do?
I understand an instance where you'regoing to like an accountant or a money
coach, money-related results make sense.
But if you're going to, like,even a copywriter or a system
(14:18):
specialist, does that make sense?
Is that really what every person'sgoing into any partnership looking for?
So again, I just let the client determine.
What's most valuable.
What often happens to you in theinterviews that I have is we'll get to
the end of the call and someone willremark like, "Oh, I didn’t realize
that this not profit-based facetactually meant a lot to me," because we
(14:41):
spent a lot of time talking about it.
Whereas any other resultsare very cut and dry.
They're like, "I made thismoney, I upped this traffic," and
it's a very short conversation.
Whereas how my clients made them feelis a so much longer of a conversation.
And that tells me in five yearswhere they've moved on and they're
so successful, and they met allthose money-based benchmarks.
(15:02):
They're going to remember that youwere the client that made them feel
good and made them feel proud oftheir business and gave them clarity.
What you're hitting on is Not all of ushave work that fits into soundbites and
all the attention is paid to gettingus to squeeze our work into soundbites.
And what you're doing is saying, "No.If you're a passion-driven, values-led,
(15:25):
not a soundbite service providerbusiness, you've got this long-tail
impact, then tell that story." But we'realso the ones who might be the least
comfortable talking about ourselves.
Do you see that often?
Is it clients that struggle to talkabout themselves that you work with
I think it's not so much that theystruggled to talk about themselves,
(15:50):
but like, back and forth, "Iswhat I'm doing flashy enough?
Is it results-based enough?
Is it worth doing the client story for?"I had someone recently who does, backend
stuff say, "Well, my transformationsdon't have an emotional or destructive
impact." And I'm like, "You sure?"Because if you got a messy backend, and
(16:12):
that's been bugging the heck out of you.
And you come in and you make that thingworkable, there's an emotional impact.
There's relief.
There's reduction of stress.
And then I could see the wheelsturning to them, to be like, "Oh,
that does have value," becausethey've been told what they do is
maybe not that flashy or exciting orwouldn't have an emotional impact.
(16:36):
But we are impacted emotionallybecause business is personal.
We go to a service provider for exampleto help us with something, and that
something is not always measurableby some benchmark, or metric, or
something that's numbers-based.
But you're absolutelytransforming someone's experience.
(16:56):
We're also in a culture wherewe're told to minimize what we do.
So, you know this personally, I'm alwaysthe person who's like, "I'm not minimizing
that for you. If you have something thatyou're proud of that was as a result of
this partnership, we're going to be realloud about it." It's not small to me.
The other part of it is gettingcomfortable with the fact
that you're making an impact.
(17:18):
And even in my emails, every 10emails, I'm always like, "You're
making an impact. I promise."Doesn't matter how small it is.
It matters to people and ourclient stories matter to people.
A story will be up.
And it will really resonate withsomeone, and it will motivate
them, and they'll feel seen.
And I think that's the powerof sharing those stories.
It can feel so lonely in businessif you're not like everybody else.
(17:42):
And there's more of us out there whoare, low-spoons, low energy, whatever
term you use that's affirmative for you.
Don't make yourself small.
You are making an impact, so letthat be the thing that drives you
I will never say just do somethingand push past the discomfort.
But really reflect on what you're doingand know that you are making an impact,
(18:05):
and other people should hear thatstory, including your future clients.
And however you choose to share that willonly benefit you and your future clients.
I think part of the subtext herethat's also really important, but
asking for help as my kryptonite.
So I try and do everything myself.
This conversation isjust reminding me that.
A, we can't do everything ourselvesbecause different people see
(18:28):
different things in our work.
And B, we can find people to work withwho are compatible with how we work.
so I think it is just importantto say, when you do feel different
than the business mainstream,work hard to find your people.
You hit on something reallyimportant about the emotional
component of the client stories.
(18:50):
Talking about Thinkydoers, a lot of usstay stuck in the work or in our own
brains or in the thought work piece of it.
And I really struggle to get out of theteaching mode and into the emotional
mode or the resonant mode with clients.
And I think that's somethingyou've developed a method
to do really, really well.
(19:11):
So if we think a little bit about.
how do these storytelling practices applyoutside of the realm of client stories?
Do you have any advice for folkswho struggle with making that
switch into storytelling, whetherit's about their business or about
the work they do as an employee?
Yeah, I always start panicked when Ihave to talk about anything to do with
(19:37):
me or anything in my storytelling.
But then I sort of channel the personwho needs to hear what I'm saying.
Pick a format that works foryou, whether that's a voice
note, whether that's writing.
I always go from the sense of,like, what did I need to hear?
What do my people need to hear?
And I go from there.
(19:59):
With your book, it's aboutfinding yourself as a strategist.
And I think I would approach the doc orthe voice note around what did you need
to hear before you were on this journey?
Because it's probably really,really important to somebody.
Feeling seen and recognized by peopleis so much part of client stories, but
(20:23):
also part of storytelling and messaging.
And not in the hard, copywritingformulas that are like, "I've been
there too." Sharing your experience.
And just leaning on what you needed tohear, what would have been helpful, and
you hope that it resonates with people,but I know that it, in your case, it will.
Approaching the blank cursor with thenotion that, for now, you're talking to
a best friend, or a version of yourself,let's say, who needs to hear what you're
(20:46):
about to say, and then tweak accordingly.
And I think that just settlesmy nerves a little bit more.
Because you talk about being inteaching mode, and service mode,
and I think that's a form of that.
You're being this service tosomebody who needs your support.
And I think that makes it easier for me,personally, when I get super panicked.
Because I always worry, too much LinkedIn.
(21:08):
I always worry, like, "Is this likea corny LinkedIn post? Is this like
a gotcha Instagram post?" I getreally caught up in the format.
Figure out what your format is.
If you're someone who loves to writea voice note, record that, there's
some transcription technology you canuse to get that in the text version.
If you're a writer, do that.
Riff with a partner or a peerif that's easier, and that's
(21:30):
just how I get the storytellingstarted and then go from there.
So I don't know about you.
I am the world's most shy person.
So I love what I do.
I believe in my work.
My clients are incredible.
I am still incredibly shy when itcomes to talking to other people.
So, Even with how intimate myrelationships are with my clients, I feel
(21:55):
weird asking them to tell their stories.
Do you ever have days where you'refeeling friction about getting on
the line and talking to someone?
And if you do, how do you manage that?
I mean, I always struggled withlike feeling like I'm annoying
poeple because I have a lot ofavoidance initially when I was
(22:15):
approaching my old clients.
I like kind of created this narrativein my head that its like its annoying
to be asked questions It must be soannoying for them to be approached.
They probably didn't like the work anyway.
It just went to spiral town.
So, what I do and what I findhelpful in the client stories
perspective is I just like to betransparent about the whole process.
(22:37):
That helps me, and it makes it easierbecause we're getting on the same page.
I sent y'all almost like a welcomepacket, what to expect, what the
interview is going to be like, justto let people get their bearings.
And if they have concerns,they can reach out beforehand.
And I haven't had a lot of that, butyou know, there's been one or two
people who have said, "Ooh, I feellike I have to rehearse or I have to
(23:00):
know everything." And I'm like, "Thisis just meant to be a very casual
conversation." So I do have this momentto be like, "Well, I'm a small guy.
I don't know, why would these peoplewant to talk to me?" I just try to think
about, again, who am I trying to support?
And there's somebody who probablyreally needs to learn about that story.
I know that sounds really corny,but there's somebody who's gonna
(23:22):
really resonate with that story.
So, when I get really nervous orthink, "Gosh, maybe they think I'm
the most annoying woman alive." Iremember that people have free will.
They can decline to talk to me.
And also, that they're probably eagerto share their story too, and to talk
to me and put their story out there, andhave folks learn not just about their
business, but their journey in life.
(23:44):
Because, again, business can belonely and I think even more lonely
if you don't fit the sort of mold.
I was in a redacted group, andI just remember feeling so alone
because I wasn't the archetype.
I would basically be like, "No, I'mtoo tired to do that. I'm not doing a
(24:04):
challenge. I don't have enough energyfor that." It just was very alienating.
So, I always thinkabout, who can this help?
Who is this in service to?
How can I make sure thatpeople have a good experience.
I do have a coaching background,so I try to create that kind of
braver space when we chat as well.
And again, knowing yourwhy is also really helpful.
It's helpful to move forward.
(24:25):
If you find it like quite dysregulating,I don't I say don't overdo it.
It could just be finding a formatthat's more accessible to you.
So some people use tools likeVideoAsk, which is pre-recorded.
So, you would pre-record your questions,and then the client would record, or
write, or audio record their responses.
(24:46):
So some of this is like tweakinga format that works for you too.
That actually gets me to mylast substantive question.
It's not just shyness, I strugglereally hard with a phenomenon called
rejection sensitivity that comeswith neurodivergence for a lot of us.
if you struggle with rejectionsensitivity, which isn't just
about rejection, it is alsoabout how we receive feedback and
(25:09):
other messages from other people.
So the obvious answer is (25:12):
Find someone like you and hire them.
But do you have any other tipsfor folks who are wired that way?
Give yourself some grace.
It's
scary to ask people, and I thinkit's ridiculous that people are like,
"Well, just ask, just don't be scared."Like, oh, okay, never thought of that.
It can be scary.
(25:32):
It can be vulnerable, because typically,your project goes well, and you probably
aren't going to get a lot of surprises.
But if you, are experiencing orhave this experience with rejection
sensitivity, or you're just, I like tocall it my "brain siren" — just starts.
I like to think that she's my biggest op.
She's telling me (25:49):
"They hated you.
Every email's a lie.
It was the worst.
They are going to trash youall of a sudden." And that's
like an extreme of that.
I know that's not everyone's experience,but I just want to dispel the
notion that you shouldn't be scared.
Because for some of us,it's very vulnerable.
And it's also hard to talk yourself out ofthinking the worst with feedback for us.
(26:12):
It can be scary.
And I think like acknowledgingthat to some level helps or is
at least a good starting point.
And then two, you don'thave to approach everyone.
My process is a mix of righttiming, right client, right story.
I think that does take the pressure off.
You don't have to ask every single person.
(26:34):
But usually The cues of who to askand who's right to ask, and therefore
someone who's more likely to say yes,are around picking people who have given
you feedback throughout the process.
They're like positive the whole project.
They haven't waited till theend to give commendations.
And it could just be notes in aGoogle Doc, notes in an email.
It doesn't necessarily have to beparagraph after paragraph of praise,
(26:57):
although I'm sure all of you arelovely and you get that all the time.
Which isn't to say that you'restacking the cards to make sure that
you absolutely get a positive review.
But we want a generative one, right?
We want someone that showcasesour expertise and their
genuine client experience.
If you're nervous about potentiallygetting less-than-favorable feedback,
(27:18):
I'm not going to be somebodywho's like, "That won't happen."
Because I don't know everything.
But I do think lean into chatting withfolks who despite your best efforts,
that they are enjoying the experienceand they want to share and they are
rooting for you to continue to growyour business, and build your business.
And I know all y'all aresmart and amazing people.
There's tons of those people.
(27:39):
Again, it's not to say that if that didn'thappen, you shouldn't approach a client,
but I think it does take the pressure off.
Start with people who you are confidentthat enjoyed their experience: A, and B:
Have a lot to say about that experience.
You don't have to check in with everyone.
And you also don't have to be not scaredif that's something that you feel.
I think one of the thingsthat you're hitting on is
(28:01):
something that's so important.
I hadn't thought about the words thisway before listening to you, but for
those of us who have some rejectionsensitivity, it's important that
we set ourselves up for success.
And that's what you're describing is.
Pick the people where you thinkyou're more likely to succeed.
You don't have to start in the deepend, and it's okay to be nervous.
(28:24):
Which I think is just greatlife principles for folks
that struggle with RSD.
Yeah.
And I just did a summit, and Iwas saying, you also don't always
have to start from scratch.
Go to somebody who gave you a testimonial.
See what they said.
Is there anything in that testimonialthat you want to explore more?
Is there anything that they're alludingto that you want to know more about?
(28:44):
Approaching people you alreadyapproach may seem counterintuitive,
but a testimonial, depending onhow you do them, whether you do a
form or however you structure that,is that start of that journey.
Because you typically get a testimonialpretty soon after a project ends, and
that tends to be more about your worktogether, which obviously still has
(29:05):
value, but it's less about your results.
So, I always think you can even takeoff even more added pressure by just
going to somebody you've alreadygone to for a smaller capacity.
And start having a longerconversations about that experience.
Because I'm sure they haveplenty to say as well.
There's still a possibility that they'llsay, actually, that's it, that's all.
But it's a starting pointthat I think to me feels more
(29:28):
approachable and more accessible.
And certainly to my clients, I'm like,"You've wrapped a project, now you're
going to do it." If you're thinkingabout long term and you want to get
started, well, go back a little.
There might be some gems in there.
I think that helps reduce anotherone of my personal barriers.
You've hit on that client storiesdon't have to just be testimonials
(29:49):
right after the work finishes.
What's actually juicy, and interesting andwould resonate might happen independently
of the actual hands-on work, long after.
Now my wheels are turning aboutwhich clients would make the most
interesting and diverse client stories.
One of the things that when I worked withyou on the client story for Sarah Moon,
(30:12):
you create such a warm, gentle space forpeople that you get on the line with.
Is that on purpose, or can you tell meanything about how you do that for folks?
I Coaching helped.
So I took a coaching course.
It's accredited.
It's not by a phony, it's legit.
And the purview of that isbasically to not lead people.
(30:36):
Don't follow the galloping hooves.
I think that comes from a place ofwanting a particular type of result.
So I do build questions aroundthe client's goals, but I also
leave lots of space for us totalk about whatever comes up.
And I know that's probablycounterintuitive for other people
to be like, why would you let aconversation spiral or like just go in
directions that maybe they shouldn't?
(30:58):
But I think that's where a lot ofreally interesting insights lie.
Is the tangents, theside stories, the asides.
I will often watch y'all realize inreal-time how much something meant
to you that you had no idea mattereduntil we have that conversation.
So part of it is, yes, I have thiscoaching background, which helps me (I
(31:19):
hope) create braver spaces for y'all.
And even before that, I do givea sort of packet that walks you
through the process and gives youthe opportunity to ask any questions.
But I don't share questionsreally ahead of time.
I fear that it makes folks nervous,and also that they have to give me a
particular answer, which is stressful.
(31:41):
If you think that I'm lookingfor some special answer, I'm not
looking for some special answer.
I'm looking for you to give me theanswer that reflects your experience,
because you're the boss on this call.
I'm only timekeeping.
You decide what mattersto you, as you should.
You're the client.
I don't know why this is controversial.
But it would be great, I wouldlove the power to say "I want to
(32:04):
showcase one particular result andwho cares what the client thinks." In
theory, wouldn't that be so simple,but it doesn't work like that.
So definitely coaching background,transparency around the process.
Just having open conversationswith folks really helps.
And I also don't censor y'all.
You can talk about whatever itis that comes to comes to mind.
(32:25):
And it's up to me, because I am thewriter, the story shaper, to decide
what stays in and what doesn't stay in.
And also, if you've divulged somethingthat you have consented for me to know,
but potentially not the client, andcertainly not the public, I omit those.
from the final product.
So there's obviously privacy and, securityaround the conversations that we have.
That's how I build each conversation.
(32:45):
And it is longer than averagethan how other people do.
I did have someone say, "90 minutes,that's so long." And I’m like, really?
Because I be kiki-ing withpeople, and we always run over.
We have a great time.
And I like to think we have fun.
When I was sitting down to talk to you asa client story subject, I was so nervous.
(33:06):
I just wanted to talk about how awesomeSarah Moon is, which is easy to do.
But it took me some time to getinto the vibe of actually having the
conversation instead of just trying towrite a client story for Sarah Moon.
And so your patience is reallyeffective at helping people make
that transition and settle in.
But then you bring up such a good pointthat, you do a 90-minute interview
(33:30):
and you wind up with a few minutesof a finished product of a client's
story that's the absolute best parts.
It's a really good reminder that wedon't get our stories in one take,
in a soundbite, like they start outas these long winding back-and-forths
between two people, and thenthat's what uncovers the best bits.
(33:54):
I just think the takeaway hereis if you're someone like me
who struggles with it, then findsomeone like you to work with.
Because by asking for help, I would windup with a completely different client
story than if I tried to do it myself.
Yeah, I mean, you're a smart cookie.
I think you can do anything.
However, I think that'swhat I bring to the table.
(34:17):
that y'all are the storyteller.
I'm the story shaper.
I take that raw material and thenI put that together and make sure
that together we write somethingthat's reflective of your experience.
Because I don't want to tella story that isn't your story.
I also like to write things that peoplewant to read and people want to share.
Because I've also had people approachme to be like, I've had problems
(34:39):
in the past of clients sharingthis, and I'm like, interesting.
I don't have that problem.
I've never encountered that.
But I'm also writing for thereader, I'm balancing things.
I want it to represent yourstory and not feel manufactured
to feel like it's a true story.
I want to showcase the client'sexpertise, but also there's a
readership that has to read this, right?
I know people think that a client storyis more of a sales document, and it is.
(35:02):
It's probably one of ten (minimum)pieces of content that people are
reading before they make a decision.
So, it better be interesting.
Is there anything else that youwould want to offer in terms of
advice or key takeaways for folks?
The key takeaways are (35:17):
you can find something that works for you.
I know gathering insights can feel likea pain, and it can be a longer process.
I personally take up tosix weeks, assuming that
the energy is there.
Sometimes, I extend projects,which I'm very transparent
about with all my clients.
It can be something that takesa while, but it is worth it.
(35:38):
Because you don't have to go back to thedrawing board all the time, which is what
I don't like about social media, whichis a tirade for a different episode.
But you are building a basis anda foundation to always share.
Half the time I just send the direct link.
But occasionally, when I'm feelingspicy, I will include different quotes
and other parts of it broken up.
(35:59):
So you're creating a longtermevergreen asset, that's
what's important to remember.
It's okay to feel a bit awkwardabout approaching clients, but you
are making an impact with them,and they want to support you.
Nine times out of ten that's the case.
And I think in the 10th case where it'snot, you probably know that already
before going into that scenario.
(36:20):
I think the people who didn't lovesomething are quite visible, quite loud.
Honor those feelings, but also acknowledgethat people do want to support you.
And three, it's about the client,and their experience, and their story
matters, but also there's somebodywho wants to work with you and they
just need slightly more information.
(36:42):
But they're also looking for someonewho's a bit like them, maybe not fully.
But who has similar experiencesand has worked with you and that's
going to tie everything together.
So the TL;DR of this is, it's worthit, but I don't want you to feel
like you have to push through justbecause I'm a person who's an expert.
It's never going to happen.
I think honor your energetics, honoryour process, honor the format.
(37:04):
If it's accessible to you, hire someone.
If not, there are ways to dothis work are just easier.
But you don't have to miss out, andyou don't have to feel excluded.
These stories are for us as well.
One of my most important keyresults for myself right now is
to hear, I feel seen or variationson that theme from folks more.
(37:25):
So we actually count it.
that's a key result that wekeep track of when we hear it.
When I can finally pull the triggeron client stories, like that number
is going to go up by like 10x, 20x,like it's going to be a big jump.
I'm really excited.
If people want to learn more about youand your work, where can they find you?
They can find me at my website,www.thecontentwitches.ca.
(37:48):
I am most entertaining on Threads.
I’m a ghost—a specter—onInstagram, but technically there.
And I'm trying to get BlueSky going.
I kind of posted and ghosted.
I'm so sorry.
But I'm, trying.
And LinkedIn, begrudgingly.
Yeah, it's the same for me.
I'm trying so hard to get off ofThreads and onto BlueSky, but man,
that character count just kills me.
(38:10):
It's not enough.
Thank you for joining andlistening to this conversation with
Nailah King about storytelling.
I wanna thank Nailah fordoing this episode with me.
I've been really looking forward toit, and I wish I could have recorded
all the way till we hung up becauseafter we dropped the recording,
we had a great conversation about.
(38:32):
The power of long form storytelling forthose of us who are wired differently
compared to the blips of social mediathat sometimes just drain and distract us.
But that's an episode for another time.
If you wanna learn more about Nala andher work with client stories, you can
find her at www.thecontentwitches.ca.
(38:55):
She is also most entertainingon threads, as she mentioned,
and you can find her there.
I'm gonna spell this one outat N A I L A H dot Z dot KING.
So nailah.z.king.
Now, don't forget it is book launchmonth, so you can find all that
(39:15):
information at youarestrategist.com.
Thank you so much for all ofyour support and for listening
today, and I'll see you next time.
All right, friends, That's it for today.
stay in the loop with everythinggoing on around here by
visiting findrc.co/newsletterand joining my mailing list.
(39:38):
Got questions?
My email addresses are too hard tospell, so visit findrc.co/contact
and shoot me a note that way.
You'll also find me at@saralobkovich on most of your
favorite social media platforms.
For today's show notes, visitfindrc.co/thinkydoers if there's
(39:59):
someone you'd like featured onthis podcast, drop me a note.
And if you know other Thinkydoers who'dbenefit from this episode, please share.
Your referrals, your word of mouth,and your reviews are much appreciated.
I'm looking forward to the questionsthis episode sparks for you, and I
look forward to seeing you next time.
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