May 21, 2025 • 34 mins
In a world that celebrates the loudest voices and the biggest followings, what if quiet spaces are where real belonging begins?
In this deeply personal and connected conversation, Sara Lobkovich sits down with community strategist Carrie Melissa Jones to explore the surprising power of “quiet communities” — where introverts, neurodivergent folks, and the socially anxious can finally feel seen, heard, and safe.
If you’ve ever felt like community just isn’t for you… this episode might just change everything.
Episode Highlights:
- Carrie’s journey with social anxiety and building inclusive, "quiet" communities
- Belonging without active participation—research and real-life insights
- Using bodily awareness and boundaries to stay grounded as a community creator
- Self-leadership and support systems to prevent burnout in community work
- Practical tips for both hosts and participants to feel more confident and aligned
Key Concepts Explored:
- Self-Regulation in Online Spaces: How digital communities offer spaces for thoughtful connection for introverts and neurodivergent people.
- Quiet Communities: Community spaces that don't demand constant engagement and allow people to participate on their own terms.
- Meaningful Engagement vs. Engagement for Engagement's Sake: The importance of connecting community activities to purpose and growth rather than arbitrary metrics.
- Body Awareness as Community Evaluation: Using physical reactions and feelings as guidance for whether a community is a good fit.
- Belonging Without Participation: Research findings on how affiliation alone can create a sense of belonging without requiring active involvement.
- Self-Leadership in Community Building: Managing internal dialogues and anxieties that arise when creating and managing communities.
- Community as Healing Practice: How creating spaces for others can help heal our own relationship to connection.
- Distributed Leadership: Inviting others' contributions rather than trying to do everything yourself.
- Community Building as a Long Game: The importance of patience and persistence in both building and participating in communities.
Notable Quotes:
"If there's a place that you wish existed... why not be the person that starts that?"
— Carrie Melissa Jones [00:13:00]
"You cannot do it alone. It's not a solo activity. To really create a community, you've got to see, recognize, and invite in the gifts of others and others' contributions."
— Carrie Melissa Jones[00:42:32] - [00:42:54]
I start everything I do scared and then once you get rolling it gets fun. Nothing starts fun. Everything starts with anxiety.
— Sara Lobkovich [00:46:45]
Chapters:
[00:00:00] Introduction and Meet Carrie Melissa Jones
[00:05:51] Social Anxiety and Career: Turning Challenges into Expertise
[00:11:22] Redefining Community: "Quiet Communities" and Meaningful Engagement
[00:15:38] Challenging the "Not a Joiner" Identity and Finding Your Fit
[00:19:53] Body Awareness: Using Physical Responses as Your Community Guide
[00:25:32] Advice for Shy Community Creators: Boundaries and Sustainability
[00:29:42] Research Insights: Belonging Without Active Participation
[00:39:03] Self-Leadership and Distributed Responsibility in Community Building
[00:44:30] Practical Pre-Launch Strategies and "Doing It Scared"
[00:48:10] The Long Game: Advice for Participants, Hosts, and Closing Thoughts
Upcoming Events:
- Q3 Strategic Achievement Intensive is now waitlisting!...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sara (00:01):
Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.
Thinkydoers are those of us drawnto deep work where thinking is
working — but we don't stop there.
We're compelled to move the work frominsight to idea, through the messy
middle, to find courage and confidenceto put our thoughts into action.
I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich.
(00:23):
I'm a strategy coach, a huge goal-settingand attainment nerd, and board-certified
health and wellness coach, working atthe overlap of work, life well-being.
I'm also a Thinkydoer.
I'm here to help others find moresatisfaction, less frustration, less
friction, and more flow in our work.
(00:46):
My mission is to help changemakers likeyou transform our workplaces and world.
So let's get started
Hello, friends.
Today I am very excited to bring youa conversation with Carrie Melissa
Jones, community strategist, authorand founder of the CMJ Community.
(01:09):
What makes this episode especiallyintriguing is that Carrie has built
her career around creating spaces forconnection and community, while also
navigating her own social anxiety.
If you've ever felt that communityspaces aren't for you because you're
introverted, shy, neurodivergent,or just sensitive, this episode
(01:29):
might change your perspective.
We will explore what makes communitiessafe and accessible for different thinking
and sensory styles, the power of quietcommunities, and how belonging can
happen even without active participation.
Carrie will also share practicaladvice for both community
participants and those consideringbuilding their own communities.
(01:50):
So whether you are a self-proclaimedlone wolf like me or someone wrestling
with how to create connection on yourown terms, this conversation offers
insights that just might surprise you.
All right.
I am super excited to have CarrieMelissa Jones here with me today.
Carrie and I met throughJamar Diggs' Low Lift Club.
(02:14):
What we're gonna be talking about todayis community and community building,
in the context of being a Thinkydoer,maybe someone who isn't necessarily
wired for networking and connection.
I participated in her community andwas so impressed with your rigor.
I know how busy you are, and I'msuper excited to have you here today.
(02:38):
So go ahead and tell peoplewho you are and what you do.
Carrie (02:41):
I'm so excited to be having this conversation.
When you explained who a Thinkydoeris, I was like, yes, that's me.
I am Carrie Melissa Jones.
I am the co-author of the book,right over my shoulder, Building
Brand Communities with Charles Vogl.
And I'm a community strategist,community builder, and researcher of
belonging and connection, and what thatmeans, especially what it means on the
(03:05):
internet, as confusing as that maybe.
I help people all day longconnect both online and offline.
Sara (03:12):
That right there is a perfect opening, because so many of us who
are introverted or neurodivergentor sensitive or autistic, have
different sensory needs, wind up doingso much of our connecting online.
I just did naturally, and then nowknowing what I do about my wiring,
it makes perfect sense, becauseI can regulate myself with people
(03:35):
online, compared to all those motorneurons firing when we're in person
and everything that comes into play.
But I'd love to hear, how didyou start doing this work?
Carrie (03:46):
Yeah.
What you just shared is pretty muchmuch me to a T, especially as teenager.
I did not have the language then for whymy social anxiety was as high as it was.
I just knew that I felt like I literallycould not use my voice sometimes.
Like, I was too afraid to speak, becauseeverything was just happening around me.
And so, yes, exactly like you mentioned,I discovered online forums, this is
(04:10):
pre-Facebook, pre-MySpace, all that.
And I discovered that there were placeswhere people were connecting around
all kinds of topics, from motorcyclesto music, that was my big thing.
And you could meet people from all overthe world and I did not know this at
the time, but it was absolutely for meabout self-regulation and being able
to take in what people were saying andprocess it, and then think, okay, what
(04:33):
is my thoughtful contribution to this?
And/or what do I feel safe sharing in thisspace that I can't share anywhere else?
I didn't realize that doingthat as a teenager was gonna
open up my career, but it did.
And then I got into doingthis professionally.
I used to work mostly intech, also in publishing.
And there were all kinds of folks who,for the first time, we're trying to
(04:54):
do work on the internet at the sametime and needed a steward, needed
someone to help them to connectand do their work more effectively.
And so I discovered that this jobtitle of "community manager" existed.
And then when I discovered that, Iwas like, this is my life's work.
I just decided one day,this is what I want to do.
And I've been doing it ever since.
Went to grad school tostudy it, all that stuff.
(05:15):
So yeah, I'm just a hugenerd about this topic.
Sara (05:18):
That's so awesome.
It's wild to meet other folkswho've been at it that long.
know there are a lot of us, but youjust look so young to be as old as I am.
So tell me a little bit more, youmentioned social anxiety, if you're
comfortable talking about that,I'd love for you to share a bit.
I think there's so much overlapbetween different neurodivergences
(05:40):
and anxiety and other mentalhealth issues, and social anxiety.
So me a little bit more about how socialanxiety has affected you and your career
and the choice to do this for work.
Carrie (05:53):
I feel like until I was probably in my mid-twenties, I contorted my
entire career around my social anxiety.
What were the ways in which Icould avoid social interaction?
Even though I'm very sociallyanxious, I'm also very driven.
It's like, how can I still advancein my career, was the question I was
holding — but without having to do thescary things like get up on stage and
(06:13):
talk and host meetup events where I bringtogether strangers and things like that.
Actually, one of the seminal moments ofmy life was I went and I lived in New
Zealand for a year, and I lived on farms.
And I worked on farms and metpeople from all over the world.
And I was forced, throughexposure, essentially exposure
therapy, just over and over again.
(06:35):
Carrie, you're gonna have to haveconversations with people who maybe,
like, for whom English is not theirfirst language, and you're gonna have
to really zone in on how to connectwith folks from all over the world.
And so that opened that up for me,and I realized that it was a skill
that I developed, opening up to peopleand getting them to open up to me.
And so, I started to open up thispossibility that my career did not have
to mean me hiding for my entire career.
(06:58):
But a lot of my early career wasbehind the scenes, behind the
curtain, not sharing a lot of myself.
I've just, over many years, step bystep, have opened up more and more.
I try now not to let my career be designedby avoidance of social interaction.
I'm more just aware of it.
And then when I choose to, then I canchallenge myself with an opportunity
(07:19):
to get out of my comfort zone.
Sara (07:21):
This is gonna be one of those episodes where we're just, like,
totally twinning the whole time.
Carrie (07:27):
Yes, please.
Sara (07:29):
So, some people might be surprised to hear someone who wrestles with social
anxiety chose community as a career.
Tell me a bit about what communitymeans to you, and a little bit more
about how this wound up what youdo, despite your social anxiety.
Carrie (07:46):
So what community means to me is a group of people who care
about one another's, welfare, whoactually care about one another
beyond just making a sale orfinishing a transaction of some sort.
And they say that we create thethings that we most need to heal
within ourselves, and I thinkthat's 100% what I have done.
(08:07):
I have been very afraid ofconnection, and so that's something
that's needed to heal within me.
And so now, I consider a lot of mylife's work is: how do we create
spaces in which it is safer to have thecourage to connect with other people?
For me, it's about navigating and workingwith the challenges that I've always
had, and then I now have a deep level ofempathy for anyone who's feeling that,
(08:31):
and now I can design for those folks andto make sure that they feel included and
make sure that if they would like to,there's an invitation to them to deepen,
or they can stay in the background andjust watch, because that's okay too.
Those are all things thatare very important to me.
And growing up, I always sawcommunity as being like, it's
the loudest people in the room.
It's people who have no fear of speakingup around a big conference table.
(08:53):
Now, that's not whatit means to me at all.
It's what happens in the quietmoments, in the small interactions,
in the constant showing up.
Sara (09:02):
One of the things I loved about your community versus other online
communities I've been in is just how calm.
It's not pressure to do anythingor to engage in any certain way.
So you have really cultivated thatskillset for creating places that
do feel safer or like people canengage in the way that fits them.
How did you develop those practices?
Carrie (09:24):
Yeah, it's a combination of what I've developed over many years through my
empathy, but also through research thatI've done and research that I've read
about social anxiety and communicationapprehension and things like that.
What you're referring to is likewhat we call a quiet community,
and that's not for everybody.
Some people wanna be surrounded bynoise and liveliness all the time.
(09:45):
But it's been a really consciousdecision for us to say: actually,
we want you to come here when.
You feel like you are ready to receivesupport, and we don't want you coming
here just because we have pinged you orsent you an email or reminded you for the
15th time, There's a certain amount ofthat we must do in order to ensure that
people are aware of all the benefits ofbeing a member, but we're never creating
(10:08):
engagement for engagement's sake.
I always steer folks clear of that.
Any kind of engagement you're tryingto create in your community, it
needs to be meaningful engagement,which means it needs to connect
people to one of two things, otherpeople who are going to help them on
their journey, or to their purpose.
Why did I join this in the firstplace, and how is this engagement
I'm now being invited into helpingme make progress toward that purpose?
Sara (10:31):
So if you think about two different constituencies, the people who think
that community is not for them becausethey're shy or introverted or socially
anxious, what would you say to folks likethat, either to challenge that belief
or to help them see things differentlyabout community and connection?
Carrie (10:48):
A lot of people just say, "I'm not a joiner. I don't join things." And
they, I think they tend to over-identifywith that as part of their identity.
Like, "I'm just not a person that joinsthings." I would challenge anyone who
thinks "I can't join an organization orjoin a community that I want to be part
of because X, Y, and Z reasons" — I wouldchallenge anyone who's kind of having
that knee-jerk reaction to ask themselves: maybe I'm not someone who joins a lot (11:03):
undefined
of things, but is this something that'sgonna help me grow in a way that would,
it might sound kind of cheesy, butgrow in a way that I would be proud of?
And that doesn't mean youhave to join 15 things.
Join one thing thatcould be life-changing.
To join one community in which youdecide to contribute and commit.
(11:24):
The other thing is that, yeah,I will just confirm that not
all communities are made equal.
Someone created them becausethey heard from somebody else
that they should start one.
And it's not like that deepdrive to create something that do
didn't exist in the world before.
So yeah, there's a lot of badcommunities out there that are
probably not worth your time.
(11:45):
But if you can be choosy about it andcareful about it and deliberate about
it, there's a community out there.
And if it does not exist,then you can create it.
if there's a place that you wish existed,why not be the person that starts that?
Sara (11:59):
I am so much not a joiner that I don't even identify as not a
joiner, I identify as a lone wolf.
Like, firmly in the individual context.
But I spent last week with a client,with their whole organization
for their annual offsite.
And then I went right from there toAtlanta for one of our MotoAmerica race
rounds, and we had a full team this time.
(12:20):
It's the most people we've ever managedfor a one-bike program with our team.
And I had, I wouldn't say loneliness,I felt alone after leaving those
physical spaces with groups ofpeople where I felt belonging.
I've been here all by myself.
And I was shocked.
I love being by myself.
(12:41):
But I love that belonging is one ofthe elements that you center also,
because a lot of us, especially withneurodivergence or social anxiety, spend
so much time masking that then we mightnot be putting our feelings or needs of
belonging first, because we're tryingto figure out everybody else's needs.
So, you mentioned safety in communities.
(13:03):
For us, my listeners, this kind ofcognitive and personality and sensory
style, who is attracted to this podcast: how might people tell safe or unsafe, (13:09):
undefined
or more belonging versus less a fitkind of community from each other?
Is there anything that youwould tell people to watch for?
Carrie (13:23):
Yeah.
a couple things, and I'll caveatall of this with: belonging
is in the eye of the beholder.
So what works for one personmight not work for another.
and I can even go back to my ownstatement about communities being bad.
Well, who gets to determine that?
I'm not the ultimate arbiterof a good and bad community.
But I think the most importantthing to do when entering into
any community, including an onlineone, is to check your own body and
(13:47):
your responses to what's happening.
So in a lot of communities,you'll join and then you'll just
be like, dropped into a space.
And then you're trying to look aroundand you feel really disoriented.
That can be in a physical room thatyou're in, where you're like, "Where do
I go next?" Like, I just put my name tagon, but now I have no idea where to sit.
I usually will just gravitate towardany kind of food at that point.
Just, "Okay, where's the food?" Or evenin an online community, you're like,
(14:11):
"Okay, well now which section do I goto and how do I make friends here?" So
just being really aware of what's goingon and what might have been designed
either intentionally or not intentionally.
And going where you feel calmI think is really important.
If I feel anxious in a space andI can't find a way to regulate
myself unless I leave it, that's theinformation that I need to know if
(14:34):
I should continue to show up or not.
There's lots to uncover underneaththat, but I think that's the most
important piece is just being awareof your own body's reactions to
the communities you're part of.
Sara (14:44):
One of the patterns I notice in myself is I get so hyped up and anxious
about, especially group events andthings like that where I don't know,
people or unfamiliar kind of gatherings,that my interoceptors or my body
awareness is not good to begin with.
And so then it just goesright out the window.
So that is a really good reminderthat there are some tools in
(15:06):
my toolkit for checking back inwith myself when I have that.
I went to a YouTube creator event afew weeks ago here in Seattle where
I didn't know anybody, except one, myformer hairstylist was, and my social
skills are very rusty post pandemic.
They definitely eroded during thepandemic because I wasn't forced to
do group gatherings and be in person.
(15:28):
But the funny thing aboutthat event was I just named.
it.
I just was like, "Yeah, I'm really shy.
I'm a super big introvert.
You all do cool stuff on YouTube.
I talk about goal setting." And justlike, instead of trying to be confident
or whatever we're supposed to be inthose situations, I just named it.
And every single person I talked tosaid, "Oh, I'm an introvert too."
Carrie (15:53):
Yeah.
Sara (15:53):
So it's all out there pretending extroverted in social gatherings
when we could just be ourselves.
And then again, like, that's howwe find that belonging is by being
ourselves, letting that show.
So, let's switch gears and talk aboutpeople who have created communities or who
do actively aspire to create communities.
What would you say to shy or socially.
(16:16):
anxious folks who decide they wantto take on community creation?
Do you have any recommendedplaces to start?
Carrie (16:22):
I've written a book about it.
So I would say check outBuilding Brand Communities.
Sara (16:26):
And your community?
Carrie (16:27):
And my community, the CMJ Community, where we share the frameworks
around community building and insteadof just saying, "Okay, I think I'm gonna
build a community. Now I'm gonna go buildit," we have a structure and a process
to help you to step back and thinkreally deeply before you do create it.
And say, "Who do I want to gather?
What do they have in common?
What needs to be special about thisspace that I can't find anywhere else?
(16:48):
And what else might already be outthere also that I might be able to
lean on, partner with, whatever else."So that's a big resource. But the one
thing that I see happening over andover again with a lot of creators and
entrepreneurs who start communities isthey think, "Oh, I started a community.
Now I have to be available 24/7.".
Speaking of myself, I candissociate really easily, especially
if I'm online for too long.
(17:09):
As someone with socialanxiety, I need to know that.
I don't have to give everything ofmyself and more to run a community.
And so I tell this to our clients allthe time, is just you get to decide.
If this community only meets liveonce a quarter, hey, guess what?
You get to decide I had a client recentlysay, " I'm gonna give up every Saturday
(17:30):
for the next six months to do office hourswith my community." And I asked her, I was
like, "Is that what you really wanna bedoing every Saturday morning for the next
six months?" She's like, "No, but that'slike the only time people can meet."
And I said, "Well, that doesn't sounda time like when you should be meeting.
You know, if that's not bringingyou energy, maybe once a month you
do that." And she's like, "Wait,so I don't have to be available all
the time?" No, you pick the rules.
(17:51):
That's the great thing about runningthe community, is you get to create the
world that you wish existed, even ifit's just like one little, tiny world.
That's your little tiny worldthat you get to set the rules for.
And sure, like in collaboration withand in connection with others, you
don't have to give everything ofyourself, and then more than that.
Sara (18:06):
So I am a professional community manager going back as long as you.
Large brand community managementin the very early internet days
through till about 2010, 2011.
And I learned more in 30 days in yourcommunity about setting up a community
for success, on community management andcreating safety and belonging, than in
(18:30):
my entire career of community management.
I ultimately decided that managinga community was not for me while
I was putting the book together.
And and so it was the best thing everbecause I could see it well done.
And see, "This is not right thing forme right now. It will be sometime."
But it was just so cool to see itdone so well and learn so much just
(18:54):
from a month or two in your community.
I'm really careful about recommendingcommunities and spaces, especially
online communities, because theycan be so challenging and sometimes
hurtful, sometimes harmful.
But yours is one that I canjust unqualifiably recommend.
Carrie (19:11):
Oh, thank you.
Sara (19:11):
I'm thinking about like your research brain and what you've
learned technically about community.
Is there anything that you thinkwould surprise people in the research?
Carrie (19:23):
there's so much, actually, I don't know where to begin.
And I say that because so much ofthe conventional wisdom or what
we think is true about being inconnection with others is wrong.
And if that weren't the case, if itwere the case that our conventional
wisdom about connection was spot on100% of the time, then we would not be
(19:43):
living in the loneliest era of Americanhistory, and world history in many cases.
And we wouldn't be living in oneof the most disconnected times
in at least American history.
I don't wanna speak onbehalf of other cultures.
So much of what we think aboutcommunity is just not what the
neuroscience has to say about it.
It's not what the socialpsychology has to say about it.
(20:04):
We just did some primary researchas a team, and we just found that
this very large organization, theyhave a community that feels an
extremely high sense of belonging.
We actually ran a surveying projectwith them, very high belonging across
the organization, with a couple ofsegments that disagreed, that they
did not feel a sense of belonging.
But what we learned is that they didn'tnecessarily always say that, "Because
(20:25):
I feel a sense of belonging, "I wantto participate more," or, "I want to
participate more because I have a senseof belonging." They're actually saying,
" I feel a sense of belonging becauseby affiliating with this organization
and showing up in whatever way I can,that one, it's accepted and there's no
judgment about my participation, andtwo, I feel able to deepen more into
my identity and values around thisthing, around the community's topic.
(20:49):
And that, in and of itself, isimportant to me." This goes back
to our concept of a quiet communityand why that's so important.
A quiet community is actually saying,"You don't have to do anything
differently or be anything differentthan who you already are and what you're
already doing in order to be acceptedhere." Simply joining an organization
and just being an observer of it.
I think you can still feela sense of belonging there.
(21:10):
And especially like, my social needsare not that high for myself personally.
Like, I also love to spend time alone.
I have a handful of very close friends,and if I only ever saw them for
like months at a time, I'd be okay.
My spouse is the t otal opposite,and if he doesn't have like his
bar nights out with strangers,he he goes a little haywire.
Being part of a community does notmean having to contribute everything.
(21:33):
It just means saying, " Hey, this isimportant to me, and I'm gonna bring
it in as part of my life." That doesn'tmean I have to practice every part of it.
Sara (21:41):
That is so interesting to hear about the power just of affiliation and like
connection, even without participation.
That's wild.
To hear you talk about that.
Carrie (21:52):
Yeah.
It's so important.
There's research on, this is commonknowledge at this point, but there's
mass distrust of all kinds oforganizations, from small community
organizations to obviously for-profitenterprises and everything else.
So the need to affiliate is very strong,and yet the distrust of affiliation
with different organizations is so high.
It's really important and interestingto be in this time that we're in
(22:15):
and be very choosy about who weaffiliate, and what they're doing
to create that sense of belonging
Sara (22:20):
Tell us a little bit about what folks can expect in your book.
What are they gonna learn and find there?
Carrie (22:25):
Yeah, so it's really a guidebook.
It's written for organizationsand organizational leaders, how
any organization can thoughtfullyinvest in relationships with
people important to them.
So that's often called community, butit doesn't have to be called community.
In my work since publishing the book in2020, we have worked with nonprofits,
we worked with spiritual organizations,we worked with schools, any kind of
(22:47):
organization that's trying to bringpeople together that matter to them.
And it goes through the mostimportant principles and frameworks
to understand to do it reallythoughtfully and strategically.
Sara (22:57):
We've covered a lot of ground.
Is there anything that you wannashare that I haven't brought up yet?
Carrie (23:02):
If anything, I would just say that, especially for folks who might be
listening who are thinking about buildingcommunities, we don't often talk about the
importance of the ongoing self-leadershipthat is important in running a community.
What I've found over many years oflaunching many communities and helping
creators launch communities is thatit can be a very confronting thing.
And what I mean by that is, when youlaunch a community, all of your internal
(23:25):
dialogues about, "Am I doing enough?
Am I doing too much?
Am I helping people in theway that I said I would be?
Am I gonna retreat right now because Ijust wanna hide from everybody?" All of
it comes up in your face. And for me,and this goes back to, like, I've created
my entire career about confronting muchof my own fears around this. For me,
I find that confrontation to be such agift and an opportunity for me to say
(23:50):
either, "Yes, that's a good question.
Let me sit with it and answer it." Or," That question is actually just coming
up because of past trauma and fears andthings like that, and I just need to quiet
it down. And I need to acknowledge thatit's there." And that's part of me being
like, " Hey, I'm here to protect you.
I'm here to keep you safe." And thenI could be like, " No, it's okay. I
really appreciate you stepping up, butlike you can take a little nap now." And
(24:14):
what a therapeutic approach to the work.
But getting support through thatself-leadership is so crucial.
And I see so many creatorsand entrepreneurs burn out
when they don't have it.
And we have folks in our communitywho many times have been like, "I
don't actually know if I want to keepgoing." And then we'll get on one
coaching call and they'll be like,"Oh, this actually wasn't that serious.
I was definitely in a place ofdysregulation about this, and now I
(24:36):
feel better." So yeah, just reallyimportant to have that support.
Sara (24:39):
Oh, I mean, even hearing you talk through that, I'm like, oh.
I also don't have to do it all myself.
Be cause I struggle with everysingle gremlin you just mentioned.
And so I'm trying to do a betterjob of, when my gremlins are
the barrier, just recognizing,that can be someone else's job.
I mean, there are people whoare really good at whatever
(25:00):
is setting off my gremlins.
I think that's part of it too.
For a lot of us, especially folks whoare solopreneurs, we feel like we have
to do it all ourselves, and it's justa really good reminder that community
creation and nurturing is challengingenough without feeling like we have
to force ourselves to do it all alone.
Carrie (25:20):
Yeah.
And in fact, you cannot do it alone.
It's not a solo activity.
It's just not possible.
You're creating something else.
If you're creating it entirelyalone and getting no support from
anybody else, you're essentiallycreating like one-on-one services,
just in a different package, right?
To really create a community, you'vegot to see, recognize, and invite in the
gifts of others and others' contributions.
(25:41):
And you'd be surprised, peopleare often just waiting for the
opportunity to be generous.
People want to be askedfor their contribution.
Whether that means hosting a call in yourcommunity, or bringing their expertise to
a workshop that they wanna run with you.
We have people in our communitywho step up as volunteers
to welcome in new members.
And that's the thing that justmakes them feel happy to be
(26:02):
able to say hello to new people.
And it stresses me out tohave to personally welcome
everyone as soon as they join.
So we said, "Okay.
You wanna do this?
Here you go.
Here's a new person that joined,go say hi to them." Yeah.
We have lots of volunteer structurein place in the CMJ community.
Sara (26:16):
I learned so much by watching how you do it.
It's so cool.
So for any listeners who are like, Iam gonna build a community, I can't
wait, I'm super excited, let’s go!
What would you encourage them to consideror do before they actually get started?
What's the pre-work that you wouldrecommend before someone turns on that
Circle account and starts inviting people?
Carrie (26:39):
That's a great question.
I always recommend a couple of things.
One is (26:43):
start out by talking to people.
Talk to people who you think you mightwant to invite to be in that community.
And, we teach, as you were mentioningat the beginning of this, we're
very rigorous in how we do this.
We teach a template of questionsyou might want to ask to members.
But it can just start out as informalconversations like, are you part of
any communities around this topic?
(27:04):
If so, what do you like about them?
What is missing from them?
What can I provide that's different?
So number one (27:08):
talk to people informally and get their feedback.
And that also starts building upexcitement, and people want to support
you as you go through that journey.
That's number one.
And number two is (27:17):
test it first.
Do a test run.
That might mean hosting oneworkshop, like, a workshop you'd
like to host in your community.
If that's something you plan todo or one challenge or hosting
the kinds of conversations youmight wanna have in the community.
Put them out there and test howthey go on a small scale first.
(27:37):
And bring that bodily awarenessinto how did this make me feel?
Did I feel really anxious goinginto this and I was able to calm
down and move through that anxiety?
Or did I feel really anxious aboutthis and then I just found it
really overwhelming and I shut down?
I just recommend with everything.
It's about taking small steps every day.
That's how communities are built,is one small next step at a time.
(27:57):
And so start small, andthen build from there.
Sara (28:00):
I also think there's a subtle nuance in something you just said
that it's not, " Am I anxious?
And if I'm anxious, don't do it." It's," Am I anxious to begin, and then I settle
in and get my role?" Because it's so easyto avoid the things that make us anxious.
So much of what we have to gain iswhat happens when we just do it scared.
It's like I start everything I do scared.
And then once you getrolling, nothing, starts fun.
(28:23):
Everything starts with anxiety.
So I just think that's really wiseto not have the standard be what
can you do without being nervous?
Carrie (28:30):
Yeah.
I have to tell you, I've beendoing this for many years.
I get nervous beforeevery single call I host.
And now I host multiple callsa week in our community.
Every single time I get nervous, and bythe end of that call, I'm in our slack
with our internal team being like, " Ilove these people" — in all caps.
Because we also know that thereaction that our body has to anxiety
is very similar to excitement.
(28:51):
And so those things canget really mixed up for us.
And the nervousness is okay.
It's actually just keeping youon your toes in some cases.
Sara (28:58):
Well Carrie, this has been amazing.
I knew it would be, butthis has been amazing.
Where can people find out more about youand your work if they wanna hear more?
Carrie (29:07):
So you can find me on Instagram or LinkedIn, at Carrie Melissa Jones, and
then my website is carriemelissajones.com.
Sara (29:15):
Awesome.
And anything else youwanna before we drop?
Carrie (29:19):
Just that it's a long game.
Community building andcommunity participation.
If you're not planning on launchingand leading your own community,
becoming involved in othercommunities is also a long game.
And it takes time.
Just be patient with yourself, andeverything is an opportunity to open up
to whatever might be next in your life.
yeah.
Just take one small step at a time.
Sara (29:38):
If you're in a community as a participant and you're like, “I don’t
know if this is for me…” Do you haveanything that you would say, try
or do or consider before you exit?
Carrie (29:50):
Go back to the onboarding materials and see if you missed something.
Nobody ever reads onboarding materialsor watches the onboarding video
thoroughly enough the first time.
Go back and just see if there wasan instruction you missed somewhere.
Especially in the excitementof joining something new,
you can often glaze over it.
So, that's number one.
And then number two, I would justsay, look at who the leaders of that
(30:13):
community are and see are these peoplethat you want to surround yourself with?
And if yes, then just stickwith it a little bit longer.
And if no, then don't feel bad.
Like it's not a cult.
You can leave anytime you want.
If it's a cult, like, that's adifferent conversation we can be having.
But that's the whole beauty of communitiesis that they have permeable boundaries.
You should be able to come and go.
(30:33):
Otherwise, like I said, that'sthe definition of a closed cult.
Sara (30:37):
Yeah.
So then what about for communityhosts who have started a community?
They're up and running and they're like,“I don’t think this is for me…” or “I
don’t know if I can do this…” What wouldyou say to someone in that position?
Carrie (30:49):
Very clearly
Delete whatever you have going on there.
See if you can do 30% less.
I have a feeling it willstill be more than enough.
Delete a space that you've created, deletean event series that you're planning.
Just go down to its most simple,what is the easiest possible
thing you can do and start there.
Sara (31:08):
It's fantastic advice.
Well, Carrie, thank you so much.
This has been wonderful.
I can't wait to have you back when wecan talk about your book in more detail.
Carrie (31:15):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been such a funconversation and great to tap
into this like part of myself.
I often, I mask a lot.
I mask it a lot.
Sara (31:25):
Well, good.
Well, this is a safe zone,
Carrie (31:27):
Yes, I love it.
Sara (31:31):
All right.
That was my conversation with CarrieMelissa Jones about community building,
for those of us who might not naturallygravitate toward group settings.
I love Carrie's insights that communityisn't a sprint, it's a long game.
Something that takes time,and practice and patience.
Whether you're participating or building.
If you're interested in learning moreabout Carrie's work, you can find her on
(31:54):
Instagram and LinkedIn as Carrie MelissaJones, or visit her website at carrie
melissa jones dot com . Her book, BuildingBrand Communities offers a deeper dive
into the frameworks that she's developed.
What resonated with youfrom today's conversation?
Did any of Carrie's insightsabout quiet communities or the
power of affiliation even withoutparticipation strike a chord for you.
(32:18):
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
All right, friends, That's it for today.
Stay in the loop with everythinggoing on around here by
visiting findrc.co/newsletterand joining my mailing list.
Got questions?
My email addresses are too hard tospell, so visit findrc.co/contact
(32:40):
and shoot me a note that way.
You'll also find me at@saralobkovich on most of your
favorite social media platforms.
For today's show notes,visit findrc.co/thinkydoers.
If there's someone you'd like featuredon this podcast, drop me a note.
And if you know other Thinkydoers who'dbenefit from this episode, please share.
(33:02):
Your referrals, your word of mouth,and your reviews are much appreciated.
I'm looking forward to the questionsthis episode sparks for you, and I
look forward to seeing you next time.
Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.
Thinkydoers are those of us drawnto deep work where thinking is
working — but we don't stop there.
We're compelled to move the work frominsight to idea, through the messy
middle, to find courage and confidenceto put our thoughts into action.
I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich.
(00:23):
I'm a strategy coach, a huge goal-settingand attainment nerd, and board-certified
health and wellness coach, working atthe overlap of work, life well-being.
I'm also a Thinkydoer.
I'm here to help others find moresatisfaction, less frustration, less
friction, and more flow in our work.
(00:46):
My mission is to help changemakers likeyou transform our workplaces and world.
So let's get started
Hello, friends.
Today I am very excited to bring youa conversation with Carrie Melissa
Jones, community strategist, authorand founder of the CMJ Community.
(01:09):
What makes this episode especiallyintriguing is that Carrie has built
her career around creating spaces forconnection and community, while also
navigating her own social anxiety.
If you've ever felt that communityspaces aren't for you because you're
introverted, shy, neurodivergent,or just sensitive, this episode
(01:29):
might change your perspective.
We will explore what makes communitiessafe and accessible for different thinking
and sensory styles, the power of quietcommunities, and how belonging can
happen even without active participation.
Carrie will also share practicaladvice for both community
participants and those consideringbuilding their own communities.
(01:50):
So whether you are a self-proclaimedlone wolf like me or someone wrestling
with how to create connection on yourown terms, this conversation offers
insights that just might surprise you.
All right.
I am super excited to have CarrieMelissa Jones here with me today.
Carrie and I met throughJamar Diggs' Low Lift Club.
(02:14):
What we're gonna be talking about todayis community and community building,
in the context of being a Thinkydoer,maybe someone who isn't necessarily
wired for networking and connection.
I participated in her community andwas so impressed with your rigor.
I know how busy you are, and I'msuper excited to have you here today.
(02:38):
So go ahead and tell peoplewho you are and what you do.
Carrie (02:41):
I'm so excited to be having this conversation.
When you explained who a Thinkydoeris, I was like, yes, that's me.
I am Carrie Melissa Jones.
I am the co-author of the book,right over my shoulder, Building
Brand Communities with Charles Vogl.
And I'm a community strategist,community builder, and researcher of
belonging and connection, and what thatmeans, especially what it means on the
(03:05):
internet, as confusing as that maybe.
I help people all day longconnect both online and offline.
Sara (03:12):
That right there is a perfect opening, because so many of us who
are introverted or neurodivergentor sensitive or autistic, have
different sensory needs, wind up doingso much of our connecting online.
I just did naturally, and then nowknowing what I do about my wiring,
it makes perfect sense, becauseI can regulate myself with people
(03:35):
online, compared to all those motorneurons firing when we're in person
and everything that comes into play.
But I'd love to hear, how didyou start doing this work?
Carrie (03:46):
Yeah.
What you just shared is pretty muchmuch me to a T, especially as teenager.
I did not have the language then for whymy social anxiety was as high as it was.
I just knew that I felt like I literallycould not use my voice sometimes.
Like, I was too afraid to speak, becauseeverything was just happening around me.
And so, yes, exactly like you mentioned,I discovered online forums, this is
(04:10):
pre-Facebook, pre-MySpace, all that.
And I discovered that there were placeswhere people were connecting around
all kinds of topics, from motorcyclesto music, that was my big thing.
And you could meet people from all overthe world and I did not know this at
the time, but it was absolutely for meabout self-regulation and being able
to take in what people were saying andprocess it, and then think, okay, what
(04:33):
is my thoughtful contribution to this?
And/or what do I feel safe sharing in thisspace that I can't share anywhere else?
I didn't realize that doingthat as a teenager was gonna
open up my career, but it did.
And then I got into doingthis professionally.
I used to work mostly intech, also in publishing.
And there were all kinds of folks who,for the first time, we're trying to
(04:54):
do work on the internet at the sametime and needed a steward, needed
someone to help them to connectand do their work more effectively.
And so I discovered that this jobtitle of "community manager" existed.
And then when I discovered that, Iwas like, this is my life's work.
I just decided one day,this is what I want to do.
And I've been doing it ever since.
Went to grad school tostudy it, all that stuff.
(05:15):
So yeah, I'm just a hugenerd about this topic.
Sara (05:18):
That's so awesome.
It's wild to meet other folkswho've been at it that long.
know there are a lot of us, but youjust look so young to be as old as I am.
So tell me a little bit more, youmentioned social anxiety, if you're
comfortable talking about that,I'd love for you to share a bit.
I think there's so much overlapbetween different neurodivergences
(05:40):
and anxiety and other mentalhealth issues, and social anxiety.
So me a little bit more about how socialanxiety has affected you and your career
and the choice to do this for work.
Carrie (05:53):
I feel like until I was probably in my mid-twenties, I contorted my
entire career around my social anxiety.
What were the ways in which Icould avoid social interaction?
Even though I'm very sociallyanxious, I'm also very driven.
It's like, how can I still advancein my career, was the question I was
holding — but without having to do thescary things like get up on stage and
(06:13):
talk and host meetup events where I bringtogether strangers and things like that.
Actually, one of the seminal moments ofmy life was I went and I lived in New
Zealand for a year, and I lived on farms.
And I worked on farms and metpeople from all over the world.
And I was forced, throughexposure, essentially exposure
therapy, just over and over again.
(06:35):
Carrie, you're gonna have to haveconversations with people who maybe,
like, for whom English is not theirfirst language, and you're gonna have
to really zone in on how to connectwith folks from all over the world.
And so that opened that up for me,and I realized that it was a skill
that I developed, opening up to peopleand getting them to open up to me.
And so, I started to open up thispossibility that my career did not have
to mean me hiding for my entire career.
(06:58):
But a lot of my early career wasbehind the scenes, behind the
curtain, not sharing a lot of myself.
I've just, over many years, step bystep, have opened up more and more.
I try now not to let my career be designedby avoidance of social interaction.
I'm more just aware of it.
And then when I choose to, then I canchallenge myself with an opportunity
(07:19):
to get out of my comfort zone.
Sara (07:21):
This is gonna be one of those episodes where we're just, like,
totally twinning the whole time.
Carrie (07:27):
Yes, please.
Sara (07:29):
So, some people might be surprised to hear someone who wrestles with social
anxiety chose community as a career.
Tell me a bit about what communitymeans to you, and a little bit more
about how this wound up what youdo, despite your social anxiety.
Carrie (07:46):
So what community means to me is a group of people who care
about one another's, welfare, whoactually care about one another
beyond just making a sale orfinishing a transaction of some sort.
And they say that we create thethings that we most need to heal
within ourselves, and I thinkthat's 100% what I have done.
(08:07):
I have been very afraid ofconnection, and so that's something
that's needed to heal within me.
And so now, I consider a lot of mylife's work is: how do we create
spaces in which it is safer to have thecourage to connect with other people?
For me, it's about navigating and workingwith the challenges that I've always
had, and then I now have a deep level ofempathy for anyone who's feeling that,
(08:31):
and now I can design for those folks andto make sure that they feel included and
make sure that if they would like to,there's an invitation to them to deepen,
or they can stay in the background andjust watch, because that's okay too.
Those are all things thatare very important to me.
And growing up, I always sawcommunity as being like, it's
the loudest people in the room.
It's people who have no fear of speakingup around a big conference table.
(08:53):
Now, that's not whatit means to me at all.
It's what happens in the quietmoments, in the small interactions,
in the constant showing up.
Sara (09:02):
One of the things I loved about your community versus other online
communities I've been in is just how calm.
It's not pressure to do anythingor to engage in any certain way.
So you have really cultivated thatskillset for creating places that
do feel safer or like people canengage in the way that fits them.
How did you develop those practices?
Carrie (09:24):
Yeah, it's a combination of what I've developed over many years through my
empathy, but also through research thatI've done and research that I've read
about social anxiety and communicationapprehension and things like that.
What you're referring to is likewhat we call a quiet community,
and that's not for everybody.
Some people wanna be surrounded bynoise and liveliness all the time.
(09:45):
But it's been a really consciousdecision for us to say: actually,
we want you to come here when.
You feel like you are ready to receivesupport, and we don't want you coming
here just because we have pinged you orsent you an email or reminded you for the
15th time, There's a certain amount ofthat we must do in order to ensure that
people are aware of all the benefits ofbeing a member, but we're never creating
(10:08):
engagement for engagement's sake.
I always steer folks clear of that.
Any kind of engagement you're tryingto create in your community, it
needs to be meaningful engagement,which means it needs to connect
people to one of two things, otherpeople who are going to help them on
their journey, or to their purpose.
Why did I join this in the firstplace, and how is this engagement
I'm now being invited into helpingme make progress toward that purpose?
Sara (10:31):
So if you think about two different constituencies, the people who think
that community is not for them becausethey're shy or introverted or socially
anxious, what would you say to folks likethat, either to challenge that belief
or to help them see things differentlyabout community and connection?
Carrie (10:48):
A lot of people just say, "I'm not a joiner. I don't join things." And
they, I think they tend to over-identifywith that as part of their identity.
Like, "I'm just not a person that joinsthings." I would challenge anyone who
thinks "I can't join an organization orjoin a community that I want to be part
of because X, Y, and Z reasons" — I wouldchallenge anyone who's kind of having
that knee-jerk reaction to ask themselves: maybe I'm not someone who joins a lot (11:03):
undefined
of things, but is this something that'sgonna help me grow in a way that would,
it might sound kind of cheesy, butgrow in a way that I would be proud of?
And that doesn't mean youhave to join 15 things.
Join one thing thatcould be life-changing.
To join one community in which youdecide to contribute and commit.
(11:24):
The other thing is that, yeah,I will just confirm that not
all communities are made equal.
Someone created them becausethey heard from somebody else
that they should start one.
And it's not like that deepdrive to create something that do
didn't exist in the world before.
So yeah, there's a lot of badcommunities out there that are
probably not worth your time.
(11:45):
But if you can be choosy about it andcareful about it and deliberate about
it, there's a community out there.
And if it does not exist,then you can create it.
if there's a place that you wish existed,why not be the person that starts that?
Sara (11:59):
I am so much not a joiner that I don't even identify as not a
joiner, I identify as a lone wolf.
Like, firmly in the individual context.
But I spent last week with a client,with their whole organization
for their annual offsite.
And then I went right from there toAtlanta for one of our MotoAmerica race
rounds, and we had a full team this time.
(12:20):
It's the most people we've ever managedfor a one-bike program with our team.
And I had, I wouldn't say loneliness,I felt alone after leaving those
physical spaces with groups ofpeople where I felt belonging.
I've been here all by myself.
And I was shocked.
I love being by myself.
(12:41):
But I love that belonging is one ofthe elements that you center also,
because a lot of us, especially withneurodivergence or social anxiety, spend
so much time masking that then we mightnot be putting our feelings or needs of
belonging first, because we're tryingto figure out everybody else's needs.
So, you mentioned safety in communities.
(13:03):
For us, my listeners, this kind ofcognitive and personality and sensory
style, who is attracted to this podcast: how might people tell safe or unsafe, (13:09):
undefined
or more belonging versus less a fitkind of community from each other?
Is there anything that youwould tell people to watch for?
Carrie (13:23):
Yeah.
a couple things, and I'll caveatall of this with: belonging
is in the eye of the beholder.
So what works for one personmight not work for another.
and I can even go back to my ownstatement about communities being bad.
Well, who gets to determine that?
I'm not the ultimate arbiterof a good and bad community.
But I think the most importantthing to do when entering into
any community, including an onlineone, is to check your own body and
(13:47):
your responses to what's happening.
So in a lot of communities,you'll join and then you'll just
be like, dropped into a space.
And then you're trying to look aroundand you feel really disoriented.
That can be in a physical room thatyou're in, where you're like, "Where do
I go next?" Like, I just put my name tagon, but now I have no idea where to sit.
I usually will just gravitate towardany kind of food at that point.
Just, "Okay, where's the food?" Or evenin an online community, you're like,
(14:11):
"Okay, well now which section do I goto and how do I make friends here?" So
just being really aware of what's goingon and what might have been designed
either intentionally or not intentionally.
And going where you feel calmI think is really important.
If I feel anxious in a space andI can't find a way to regulate
myself unless I leave it, that's theinformation that I need to know if
(14:34):
I should continue to show up or not.
There's lots to uncover underneaththat, but I think that's the most
important piece is just being awareof your own body's reactions to
the communities you're part of.
Sara (14:44):
One of the patterns I notice in myself is I get so hyped up and anxious
about, especially group events andthings like that where I don't know,
people or unfamiliar kind of gatherings,that my interoceptors or my body
awareness is not good to begin with.
And so then it just goesright out the window.
So that is a really good reminderthat there are some tools in
(15:06):
my toolkit for checking back inwith myself when I have that.
I went to a YouTube creator event afew weeks ago here in Seattle where
I didn't know anybody, except one, myformer hairstylist was, and my social
skills are very rusty post pandemic.
They definitely eroded during thepandemic because I wasn't forced to
do group gatherings and be in person.
(15:28):
But the funny thing aboutthat event was I just named.
it.
I just was like, "Yeah, I'm really shy.
I'm a super big introvert.
You all do cool stuff on YouTube.
I talk about goal setting." And justlike, instead of trying to be confident
or whatever we're supposed to be inthose situations, I just named it.
And every single person I talked tosaid, "Oh, I'm an introvert too."
Carrie (15:53):
Yeah.
Sara (15:53):
So it's all out there pretending extroverted in social gatherings
when we could just be ourselves.
And then again, like, that's howwe find that belonging is by being
ourselves, letting that show.
So, let's switch gears and talk aboutpeople who have created communities or who
do actively aspire to create communities.
What would you say to shy or socially.
(16:16):
anxious folks who decide they wantto take on community creation?
Do you have any recommendedplaces to start?
Carrie (16:22):
I've written a book about it.
So I would say check outBuilding Brand Communities.
Sara (16:26):
And your community?
Carrie (16:27):
And my community, the CMJ Community, where we share the frameworks
around community building and insteadof just saying, "Okay, I think I'm gonna
build a community. Now I'm gonna go buildit," we have a structure and a process
to help you to step back and thinkreally deeply before you do create it.
And say, "Who do I want to gather?
What do they have in common?
What needs to be special about thisspace that I can't find anywhere else?
(16:48):
And what else might already be outthere also that I might be able to
lean on, partner with, whatever else."So that's a big resource. But the one
thing that I see happening over andover again with a lot of creators and
entrepreneurs who start communities isthey think, "Oh, I started a community.
Now I have to be available 24/7.".
Speaking of myself, I candissociate really easily, especially
if I'm online for too long.
(17:09):
As someone with socialanxiety, I need to know that.
I don't have to give everything ofmyself and more to run a community.
And so I tell this to our clients allthe time, is just you get to decide.
If this community only meets liveonce a quarter, hey, guess what?
You get to decide I had a client recentlysay, " I'm gonna give up every Saturday
(17:30):
for the next six months to do office hourswith my community." And I asked her, I was
like, "Is that what you really wanna bedoing every Saturday morning for the next
six months?" She's like, "No, but that'slike the only time people can meet."
And I said, "Well, that doesn't sounda time like when you should be meeting.
You know, if that's not bringingyou energy, maybe once a month you
do that." And she's like, "Wait,so I don't have to be available all
the time?" No, you pick the rules.
(17:51):
That's the great thing about runningthe community, is you get to create the
world that you wish existed, even ifit's just like one little, tiny world.
That's your little tiny worldthat you get to set the rules for.
And sure, like in collaboration withand in connection with others, you
don't have to give everything ofyourself, and then more than that.
Sara (18:06):
So I am a professional community manager going back as long as you.
Large brand community managementin the very early internet days
through till about 2010, 2011.
And I learned more in 30 days in yourcommunity about setting up a community
for success, on community management andcreating safety and belonging, than in
(18:30):
my entire career of community management.
I ultimately decided that managinga community was not for me while
I was putting the book together.
And and so it was the best thing everbecause I could see it well done.
And see, "This is not right thing forme right now. It will be sometime."
But it was just so cool to see itdone so well and learn so much just
(18:54):
from a month or two in your community.
I'm really careful about recommendingcommunities and spaces, especially
online communities, because theycan be so challenging and sometimes
hurtful, sometimes harmful.
But yours is one that I canjust unqualifiably recommend.
Carrie (19:11):
Oh, thank you.
Sara (19:11):
I'm thinking about like your research brain and what you've
learned technically about community.
Is there anything that you thinkwould surprise people in the research?
Carrie (19:23):
there's so much, actually, I don't know where to begin.
And I say that because so much ofthe conventional wisdom or what
we think is true about being inconnection with others is wrong.
And if that weren't the case, if itwere the case that our conventional
wisdom about connection was spot on100% of the time, then we would not be
(19:43):
living in the loneliest era of Americanhistory, and world history in many cases.
And we wouldn't be living in oneof the most disconnected times
in at least American history.
I don't wanna speak onbehalf of other cultures.
So much of what we think aboutcommunity is just not what the
neuroscience has to say about it.
It's not what the socialpsychology has to say about it.
(20:04):
We just did some primary researchas a team, and we just found that
this very large organization, theyhave a community that feels an
extremely high sense of belonging.
We actually ran a surveying projectwith them, very high belonging across
the organization, with a couple ofsegments that disagreed, that they
did not feel a sense of belonging.
But what we learned is that they didn'tnecessarily always say that, "Because
(20:25):
I feel a sense of belonging, "I wantto participate more," or, "I want to
participate more because I have a senseof belonging." They're actually saying,
" I feel a sense of belonging becauseby affiliating with this organization
and showing up in whatever way I can,that one, it's accepted and there's no
judgment about my participation, andtwo, I feel able to deepen more into
my identity and values around thisthing, around the community's topic.
(20:49):
And that, in and of itself, isimportant to me." This goes back
to our concept of a quiet communityand why that's so important.
A quiet community is actually saying,"You don't have to do anything
differently or be anything differentthan who you already are and what you're
already doing in order to be acceptedhere." Simply joining an organization
and just being an observer of it.
I think you can still feela sense of belonging there.
(21:10):
And especially like, my social needsare not that high for myself personally.
Like, I also love to spend time alone.
I have a handful of very close friends,and if I only ever saw them for
like months at a time, I'd be okay.
My spouse is the t otal opposite,and if he doesn't have like his
bar nights out with strangers,he he goes a little haywire.
Being part of a community does notmean having to contribute everything.
(21:33):
It just means saying, " Hey, this isimportant to me, and I'm gonna bring
it in as part of my life." That doesn'tmean I have to practice every part of it.
Sara (21:41):
That is so interesting to hear about the power just of affiliation and like
connection, even without participation.
That's wild.
To hear you talk about that.
Carrie (21:52):
Yeah.
It's so important.
There's research on, this is commonknowledge at this point, but there's
mass distrust of all kinds oforganizations, from small community
organizations to obviously for-profitenterprises and everything else.
So the need to affiliate is very strong,and yet the distrust of affiliation
with different organizations is so high.
It's really important and interestingto be in this time that we're in
(22:15):
and be very choosy about who weaffiliate, and what they're doing
to create that sense of belonging
Sara (22:20):
Tell us a little bit about what folks can expect in your book.
What are they gonna learn and find there?
Carrie (22:25):
Yeah, so it's really a guidebook.
It's written for organizationsand organizational leaders, how
any organization can thoughtfullyinvest in relationships with
people important to them.
So that's often called community, butit doesn't have to be called community.
In my work since publishing the book in2020, we have worked with nonprofits,
we worked with spiritual organizations,we worked with schools, any kind of
(22:47):
organization that's trying to bringpeople together that matter to them.
And it goes through the mostimportant principles and frameworks
to understand to do it reallythoughtfully and strategically.
Sara (22:57):
We've covered a lot of ground.
Is there anything that you wannashare that I haven't brought up yet?
Carrie (23:02):
If anything, I would just say that, especially for folks who might be
listening who are thinking about buildingcommunities, we don't often talk about the
importance of the ongoing self-leadershipthat is important in running a community.
What I've found over many years oflaunching many communities and helping
creators launch communities is thatit can be a very confronting thing.
And what I mean by that is, when youlaunch a community, all of your internal
(23:25):
dialogues about, "Am I doing enough?
Am I doing too much?
Am I helping people in theway that I said I would be?
Am I gonna retreat right now because Ijust wanna hide from everybody?" All of
it comes up in your face. And for me,and this goes back to, like, I've created
my entire career about confronting muchof my own fears around this. For me,
I find that confrontation to be such agift and an opportunity for me to say
(23:50):
either, "Yes, that's a good question.
Let me sit with it and answer it." Or," That question is actually just coming
up because of past trauma and fears andthings like that, and I just need to quiet
it down. And I need to acknowledge thatit's there." And that's part of me being
like, " Hey, I'm here to protect you.
I'm here to keep you safe." And thenI could be like, " No, it's okay. I
really appreciate you stepping up, butlike you can take a little nap now." And
(24:14):
what a therapeutic approach to the work.
But getting support through thatself-leadership is so crucial.
And I see so many creatorsand entrepreneurs burn out
when they don't have it.
And we have folks in our communitywho many times have been like, "I
don't actually know if I want to keepgoing." And then we'll get on one
coaching call and they'll be like,"Oh, this actually wasn't that serious.
I was definitely in a place ofdysregulation about this, and now I
(24:36):
feel better." So yeah, just reallyimportant to have that support.
Sara (24:39):
Oh, I mean, even hearing you talk through that, I'm like, oh.
I also don't have to do it all myself.
Be cause I struggle with everysingle gremlin you just mentioned.
And so I'm trying to do a betterjob of, when my gremlins are
the barrier, just recognizing,that can be someone else's job.
I mean, there are people whoare really good at whatever
(25:00):
is setting off my gremlins.
I think that's part of it too.
For a lot of us, especially folks whoare solopreneurs, we feel like we have
to do it all ourselves, and it's justa really good reminder that community
creation and nurturing is challengingenough without feeling like we have
to force ourselves to do it all alone.
Carrie (25:20):
Yeah.
And in fact, you cannot do it alone.
It's not a solo activity.
It's just not possible.
You're creating something else.
If you're creating it entirelyalone and getting no support from
anybody else, you're essentiallycreating like one-on-one services,
just in a different package, right?
To really create a community, you'vegot to see, recognize, and invite in the
gifts of others and others' contributions.
(25:41):
And you'd be surprised, peopleare often just waiting for the
opportunity to be generous.
People want to be askedfor their contribution.
Whether that means hosting a call in yourcommunity, or bringing their expertise to
a workshop that they wanna run with you.
We have people in our communitywho step up as volunteers
to welcome in new members.
And that's the thing that justmakes them feel happy to be
(26:02):
able to say hello to new people.
And it stresses me out tohave to personally welcome
everyone as soon as they join.
So we said, "Okay.
You wanna do this?
Here you go.
Here's a new person that joined,go say hi to them." Yeah.
We have lots of volunteer structurein place in the CMJ community.
Sara (26:16):
I learned so much by watching how you do it.
It's so cool.
So for any listeners who are like, Iam gonna build a community, I can't
wait, I'm super excited, let’s go!
What would you encourage them to consideror do before they actually get started?
What's the pre-work that you wouldrecommend before someone turns on that
Circle account and starts inviting people?
Carrie (26:39):
That's a great question.
I always recommend a couple of things.
One is (26:43):
start out by talking to people.
Talk to people who you think you mightwant to invite to be in that community.
And, we teach, as you were mentioningat the beginning of this, we're
very rigorous in how we do this.
We teach a template of questionsyou might want to ask to members.
But it can just start out as informalconversations like, are you part of
any communities around this topic?
(27:04):
If so, what do you like about them?
What is missing from them?
What can I provide that's different?
So number one (27:08):
talk to people informally and get their feedback.
And that also starts building upexcitement, and people want to support
you as you go through that journey.
That's number one.
And number two is (27:17):
test it first.
Do a test run.
That might mean hosting oneworkshop, like, a workshop you'd
like to host in your community.
If that's something you plan todo or one challenge or hosting
the kinds of conversations youmight wanna have in the community.
Put them out there and test howthey go on a small scale first.
(27:37):
And bring that bodily awarenessinto how did this make me feel?
Did I feel really anxious goinginto this and I was able to calm
down and move through that anxiety?
Or did I feel really anxious aboutthis and then I just found it
really overwhelming and I shut down?
I just recommend with everything.
It's about taking small steps every day.
That's how communities are built,is one small next step at a time.
(27:57):
And so start small, andthen build from there.
Sara (28:00):
I also think there's a subtle nuance in something you just said
that it's not, " Am I anxious?
And if I'm anxious, don't do it." It's," Am I anxious to begin, and then I settle
in and get my role?" Because it's so easyto avoid the things that make us anxious.
So much of what we have to gain iswhat happens when we just do it scared.
It's like I start everything I do scared.
And then once you getrolling, nothing, starts fun.
(28:23):
Everything starts with anxiety.
So I just think that's really wiseto not have the standard be what
can you do without being nervous?
Carrie (28:30):
Yeah.
I have to tell you, I've beendoing this for many years.
I get nervous beforeevery single call I host.
And now I host multiple callsa week in our community.
Every single time I get nervous, and bythe end of that call, I'm in our slack
with our internal team being like, " Ilove these people" — in all caps.
Because we also know that thereaction that our body has to anxiety
is very similar to excitement.
(28:51):
And so those things canget really mixed up for us.
And the nervousness is okay.
It's actually just keeping youon your toes in some cases.
Sara (28:58):
Well Carrie, this has been amazing.
I knew it would be, butthis has been amazing.
Where can people find out more about youand your work if they wanna hear more?
Carrie (29:07):
So you can find me on Instagram or LinkedIn, at Carrie Melissa Jones, and
then my website is carriemelissajones.com.
Sara (29:15):
Awesome.
And anything else youwanna before we drop?
Carrie (29:19):
Just that it's a long game.
Community building andcommunity participation.
If you're not planning on launchingand leading your own community,
becoming involved in othercommunities is also a long game.
And it takes time.
Just be patient with yourself, andeverything is an opportunity to open up
to whatever might be next in your life.
yeah.
Just take one small step at a time.
Sara (29:38):
If you're in a community as a participant and you're like, “I don’t
know if this is for me…” Do you haveanything that you would say, try
or do or consider before you exit?
Carrie (29:50):
Go back to the onboarding materials and see if you missed something.
Nobody ever reads onboarding materialsor watches the onboarding video
thoroughly enough the first time.
Go back and just see if there wasan instruction you missed somewhere.
Especially in the excitementof joining something new,
you can often glaze over it.
So, that's number one.
And then number two, I would justsay, look at who the leaders of that
(30:13):
community are and see are these peoplethat you want to surround yourself with?
And if yes, then just stickwith it a little bit longer.
And if no, then don't feel bad.
Like it's not a cult.
You can leave anytime you want.
If it's a cult, like, that's adifferent conversation we can be having.
But that's the whole beauty of communitiesis that they have permeable boundaries.
You should be able to come and go.
(30:33):
Otherwise, like I said, that'sthe definition of a closed cult.
Sara (30:37):
Yeah.
So then what about for communityhosts who have started a community?
They're up and running and they're like,“I don’t think this is for me…” or “I
don’t know if I can do this…” What wouldyou say to someone in that position?
Carrie (30:49):
Very clearly
Delete whatever you have going on there.
See if you can do 30% less.
I have a feeling it willstill be more than enough.
Delete a space that you've created, deletean event series that you're planning.
Just go down to its most simple,what is the easiest possible
thing you can do and start there.
Sara (31:08):
It's fantastic advice.
Well, Carrie, thank you so much.
This has been wonderful.
I can't wait to have you back when wecan talk about your book in more detail.
Carrie (31:15):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been such a funconversation and great to tap
into this like part of myself.
I often, I mask a lot.
I mask it a lot.
Sara (31:25):
Well, good.
Well, this is a safe zone,
Carrie (31:27):
Yes, I love it.
Sara (31:31):
All right.
That was my conversation with CarrieMelissa Jones about community building,
for those of us who might not naturallygravitate toward group settings.
I love Carrie's insights that communityisn't a sprint, it's a long game.
Something that takes time,and practice and patience.
Whether you're participating or building.
If you're interested in learning moreabout Carrie's work, you can find her on
(31:54):
Instagram and LinkedIn as Carrie MelissaJones, or visit her website at carrie
melissa jones dot com . Her book, BuildingBrand Communities offers a deeper dive
into the frameworks that she's developed.
What resonated with youfrom today's conversation?
Did any of Carrie's insightsabout quiet communities or the
power of affiliation even withoutparticipation strike a chord for you.
(32:18):
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
All right, friends, That's it for today.
Stay in the loop with everythinggoing on around here by
visiting findrc.co/newsletterand joining my mailing list.
Got questions?
My email addresses are too hard tospell, so visit findrc.co/contact
(32:40):
and shoot me a note that way.
You'll also find me at@saralobkovich on most of your
favorite social media platforms.
For today's show notes,visit findrc.co/thinkydoers.
If there's someone you'd like featuredon this podcast, drop me a note.
And if you know other Thinkydoers who'dbenefit from this episode, please share.
(33:02):
Your referrals, your word of mouth,and your reviews are much appreciated.
I'm looking forward to the questionsthis episode sparks for you, and I
look forward to seeing you next time.
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