July 24, 2025 • 36 mins
What if everything you've been taught about goal setting is actually working against you?
What if the rigid structure of SMART goals is crushing your creativity, disconnecting you from your body, and forcing you into a binary that simply doesn't fit who you are?
Today's guest, Zephyr (Zeph) Williams (they/them), is an anti-hustle business strategist who helps radical entrepreneurs build "breathe-easy businesses." When Zeph and I connected over our mutual loathing of SMART goals on social media, I knew we had to have this conversation.
In this episode, we're diving deep into why traditional goal-setting methods fail so many of us—especially neurodivergent folks and anyone who doesn't fit the conventional mold. Zeph introduces their revolutionary SLIC method (Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, Consistent) and shares why self-care isn't optional—it's strategic. But the real magic happens when we land on a beautiful reframe that might just change how you think about achievement forever.
Want to see how No-BS OKRs fit into a coherent Connected Strategic Stack?
This No-BS Connected Strategy Guide shows you what “good” looks like. Download examples of finished Connected Strategic Stacks — including best practice No-BS OKRs — and get instant clarity on your next strategic step. Includes a quick self-assessment to pinpoint your organization’s biggest OKR opportunities.
GET THE GUIDE
Episode Highlights:
- Why SMART goals create a restrictive binary that crushes creativity and exploration
- The semantic problems with SMART goal terminology that create confusion and ambiguity
- How "specific" goals create tunnel vision that blocks curiosity and the learning journey
- The SLIC Method: Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, and Consistent goal-setting
- Why self-care isn't selfish—it's a strategic foundation for sustainable success
- How to reconnect with your body through micro-practices and energy tracking
- The role of grace and compassion when breaking free from binary thinking
- What "queering" business practices means and why it's for everyone
- The beautiful reframe from "goal setting" to "becoming"—asking "What am I becoming?"
- Why consistency means showing up as your needs allow, not the same way every day
- How traditional goal-setting often leads to self-abandonment and disconnection from the body
Key Concepts Explored:
- The binary nature of SMART goals and why they create a restrictive pass/fail mentality
- The SLIC Method as an alternative: Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, and Consistent goal-setting
- Self-care as a radical act of rebellion against systems that devalue your worth
- "Queering" business practices to move beyond traditional binary frameworks
- The shift from "goal setting" to "becoming" as a more expansive approach to growth
- Body-based awareness and reconnecting with somatic needs during goal pursuit
- Why consistency means showing up according to your capacity, not rigid daily habits
Common Questions Answered:
- Why do SMART goals feel so restrictive and overwhelming?
- What makes the SLIC method different from traditional goal-setting?
- How do you start reconnecting with your body if you feel disconnected?
- What does "queering" goal setting actually mean?
- How do you define consistency without burning out?
- Why is self-care considered strategic rather than selfish?
Notable Quotes:
"SMART goals are very binary. You either succeed or you fail. And I'm not somebody who does the binary very well." - Zeph Williams [00:03:00]
"When I hear 'specific,' it feels like a narrowing down... You don't get to enjoy the journey and enjoying the...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.
I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich,and I am a Thinkydoer.
I'm here to help those of us whoare wired for change find more
satisfaction, frustration, lessfriction, and more flow in our work.
Today I have a very niche treat.
I made a new friend on Threads overour mutual loathing of smart goals.
(00:26):
So today my guest is Zeph, an anti-husslebusiness strategist who helps radical
business owners build what they call"breathe-easy businesses." When Zeph
and I connected about our mutualloathing — yes, loathing — of SMART
goals on a social media thread, Iknew we had to have this conversation.
I don't know many peoplewho feel as strongly about.
(00:47):
The fine points of goal setting asI do if you've ever felt boxed in by
traditional goal-setting practices.
If you've wondered why hitting yourtargets doesn't always feel like
success, or if you're curious aboutwhat queering your approach to work
might look like, this episode's for you.
We're going to explore Zeph's SLICmethod for goal setting, talk about why
(01:08):
self-care is not optional, and we happento land on a pretty beautiful reframe.
That might just change how youthink about goals altogether.
So let's get into the episode.
Zeph, I wanna welcome you to Thinkydoers.
We met in a kind of funny way.
Yeah, we did.
Over our mutual loathing ofSMART goals on a Threads post.
(01:33):
I was like, holy shit, someone whohates SMART goals as much as I do.
We've gotta meet.
And so we did.
And you're definitely a Thinkydoer.
I couldn't wait to get you on the podcast.
For folks who don't know you yet though,let's hear who are you, what do you do?
I'm super excited about it.
So if you've not seen me running aroundthese internet streets — hi, hello babes.
(01:55):
I'm an anti-hussle biz strategistshowing radical biz babes how to build
breathe-easy business that make theirbrains happy and let their bodies breathe.
I'm all about simple, values-alignedsystems that fit in a backpack — light,
flexible, and ready to go wherever I go.
There's systems built within,capacity-driven curiosity, so you can
show up with enough space to choose yourown biz adventure without burning out,
(02:16):
where your biz gets to be the portal toa life you actually want to live, one
that's well resourced and rooted in care.
This is Biz is Unusual, and it's whatmakes biz sustainable and subversive
in this capitalistic hellscape.
Because you don't have to choosebetween doing good and doing biz.
Collective care is the biz plan.
I got goosebumps at the end.
I love it.
Welcome.
(02:36):
You expressed your loathing of SMARTgoals online, and I think there
are probably very few people in theworld who have feelings as strong
about SMART goals as you and I do.
there are a lot of people who don'tenjoy them, but I'd just love to
hear from you, why do you have sucha visceral reaction to SMART goals?
(02:56):
Yeah, thank you.
I love this question.
So for me, I'm very expansive.
So for me it's all about possibility,it's all about curiosity, it's about
expanding into who you're becomingand leaving behind who you were.
And so for me, when I think about SMARTgoals, SMART goals are very binary.
You either succeed or you fail.
And I'm not somebody whodoes the binary very well.
(03:17):
I have a very rebellious streak in me.
And It feels very rigid,it feels very structured.
It feels like there's not a lot ofleeway to not only have a different
outcome, but there's not a lot ofspace to actually enjoy the journey as
you're getting to where you want to go.
There's no sense of play,there's no sense of adventure,
(03:38):
there's no sense of exploration.
It's all reliant on the actual outcome— like, what is it, the thing that you want?
And also, what I find with thatis that when we decide the thing
that we want, it's like, why did wedecide that was a thing that we want?
Because most of the time, the goals thatsomebody's already prescribed for us.
Because it's easier to fall into that.
We think about things like money, orwe think about things like visibility.
(03:59):
And I'm like, why are those themetrics that we have decided upon, that
that is what our success looks like?
And I'm like, as somebody who's expansive,that doesn't really fly well with me.
Because that's not how I see success.
That's not how successlives and feels in my body.
I love this so much because my reasonsfor loathing SMART goals are very
(04:22):
mechanical, and,\ yours are very likeenergetic and emotional and beyond that.
And I think that's justabsolutely delightful.
For me, incoherence andambiguity are my kryptonites.
I encountered smart goal settingfirst when I was an employee and
had to write SMART goals for work orwas assigned SMART goals for work.
(04:47):
And every time I say SMARTgoals, I'm putting "goals" in
quotation marks in my head.
Because to me, SMART goalsare planning activity, and
that's plans, not goal setting.
But when I started to work with SMARTgoals in the workplace, I had one
workplace where SMART has a originalmeaning: Specific, Measurable.
(05:08):
Achievable or Attainable,Relevant, and Time-bound.
But I was in a workplace where A meant"Achievable" and R meant "Realistic".
Because not everybody sticksto the original, you know,
what the term stand for.
There's a whole bunch of variations.
And so I sat down to write my goals andI'm like, what the fuck is the difference
(05:31):
between achievable and realistic?
Right.
And what does specific even mean?
Yeah.
I'm a words girl.
I'm a semantics nerd.
And so when we get into the semanticsand the semantics aren't helpful for
me, or aren't meaningful or aren'tconsistent, it's basically a term when
what we're aiming for is shared meaning.
(05:52):
I don't know that SMARTgoals really do that for us.
So for me, it's reallymechanical and like cognitive.
you and I have both developedalternative goal-setting practices.
You mentioned "specific", and why wasthat the first word in SMART that you
went to when you're like, what the fuck?
(06:12):
Tell me more about that.
When I hear "specific," it, itfeels like it's a narrowing down.
There's a very narrow focus.
There's a very like, "Let'sclose in and gets straight to the
point." And I'm like, why are wegonna get straight to the point?
Because when we get straight and weget like that tunnel vision, there's
an entire world that's happening aroundyou — and it's like you can't see.
You don't get to see the path.
(06:33):
It's like you're legit andlike an underwater tunnel
that you're driving through.
And you know that there's a worldaround you, but it's not safe
enough for you to be outside.
So there's an element of not feeling safe.
There's an element of not being able toenjoy the journey and enjoying the view.
And I think in the process of all ofthat, people are missing the nuance,
(06:53):
they're missing the emotional cues.
They're missing what it feels liketo be alive in the journey of getting
to where you want to get, withwhatever your outcome, your goal.
As somebody who values curiosityand exploration I just feel
like I'm getting boxed in.
For what reason?
What is the reason?
I really love that you brought up fear inthat context of closing off the curiosity
(07:16):
and the learning journey that happens.
And because I do, in thework that I do in corporate
environments, I see so much fear.
And so SMART goals are planning ouractivity, so they feel within our control.
And so I think that's part ofwhy some people are drawn to them
(07:37):
or find some comfort in them.
But then I'm with you.
It's like, then that plan isat the exclusion of what we
could discover on the way.
Right.
And I'm not even sure those goals areeven things that are in our control.
Because especially when it's anexternal metric of success, which is
(07:59):
where most of our goals lie, is likeon money, or I don't know, whatever.
I've been so focused on away from externalmetrics, I can't even name them anymore.
For me, it's like those are thingsthat are outside my control.
I can't decide how much money I make.
Yeah, I can put in a lot of effort,but if the market's not right,
or I haven't attracted right-fitclients, or just — myriad amounts of
reasons that may not be within it.
(08:21):
So this idea of goals and outcomesbeing within our control, I'm
like, well that's just silly.
'Cause are they really?
Absolutely.
that's why I usually say an "illusionof control." Because even what
we feel like we control — isn't.
There are more variables.
It's an illusion, or a comfortingillusion of control, in most situations.
(08:43):
When we spoke the first time,you mentioned there's no room
for feelings in SMART goals.
So I'd love for you to tell me alittle bit more about, for you, what
gets lost when people are reallyonly focused on those SMART outcomes?
Yeah.
I'm a data nerd, so I understand the powerof quantitative data and qualitative data.
(09:05):
They have very specific reasonsfor existing and you use them
for very specific reasonsand very specific purpose.
I have a master's in policy, soI understand numbers, but I also
understand that qualitative issomething you also need, because
that's where the storytelling happens.
But for me, when I think about likeSMART goals and that quantitative
thing, I think my hang-up with thequantitative and the numbers game is
(09:27):
that's the only thing that you go towards.
It's either you pass or fail.
This theme of exploration and curiositywill play throughout every number,
every letter that SMART stands for.
Because you're just so focusedon getting to that number that
everything else falls away.
And I personally don't feel like I get anopportunity to enjoy the process, because
(09:47):
I'm so stressed and so focused on gettingthat number that nothing else matters.
I'm one of those people that is very typeA — I've gotten better about not being so
type A as I've fallen into my ripe old age— but I used to be that person who was like,
"I have to get to this." And at all costs.
By any means necessary.
(10:08):
Which means that, again, tunnel vision.
You're not seeing anything around you.
You're not being able to enjoy it.
It almost feels like you're losing asense of connection with yourself too.
Because you're so focused on gettingthere that you're not even paying
attention to what your body might need.
I know that when I'm chasing goalslike that, there would be times where
I would skip meals, I wouldn't drinkwater, I would not move out of a
chair because I was so hyper-focusedon getting to where I wanted to go,
(10:30):
that again, nothing else mattered.
So my body was like a desiccatedmummy sitting in a chair, and it's
like, baby, we cannot do this.
This is not happening.
You have an alternative approachto goal setting that you
advocate for — the SLIC method.
So tell me about yourSLIC goal-setting system.
(10:50):
So SLIC stands for Sustainable,Long-term, Iterative, and Consistent.
And the S is super important.
I'm that too.
I'm that self-care girlie.
I'm going to put self-care aboveeverything else because if you are
not taking care of yourself, there'sno way in hell you're gonna be
able to take care of anybody else.
And also, when you take care of yourself,you are sending a gentle reminder that
you matter and that your needs matter.
And I think in this world where it'scapitalism and the patriarchy and
(11:12):
just systems in general that aredoing everything to tell you that
you are not worthy and that you arenot deserving, that we have to be
very proactive in making sure thatwe are taking care of ourselves.
So sustainability, self-care, thosekinds of things will always be at the top
of my list, which is why that's first.
So there's Sustainable, Long-term— oftentimes SMART goals feel like
(11:34):
they're very focused on the short term.
It's like, you get toa goal and that's it.
There's nothing else.
But I'm thinking about, okay, if I hitthis goal, or wherever I'm trying to
get to, that's not the end of the story.
There's also what comes next.
There's also the journey that gets there.
It's allowing myself to take a momentto pause and breathe and invite in a lot
more space in my body, and invite in morespace in my biz or wherever I'm working.
(11:57):
It's focusing on long-termoutcome, long-term progress.
Iterative, so I think one of the otherfailings of SMART goals is that it
does not allow opportunity for youto kind of learn and fuck it up and
make mistakes and pivot and, you know,change things up if something happens.
Because it's got that very es/no,pass/fail, succeed/fail binary.
(12:20):
And iterative goes, "Okay cool, I canrelax into this. This is great." Like,
let me go on this little side quest.
Maybe today I want to, Idon't know, take a rest today.
Or maybe I wanna go exploresomething different.
It might kind of tangibly has somethingto do with this, but not really, and
it's gonna get me closer to this.
But if I was following a SMART goal,I would not be able to go explore it,
because it's a very tenuous thread.
(12:41):
So it's like, "Okay, I can't do thisbecause if I go focus on the quest, I
can't focus on the the goal that I'mgetting to." So I want something that's
iterative and allows me to, again,play and explore and get curious.
Because if I open up this door andallow myself to go choose this side
quest, who knows what I might find?
I might be able to takein more information.
I might be able to learn somethingdifferent that says, "Okay, maybe this
(13:03):
direction you're going isn't right andwe need to pivot and we need to change."
So this is allowing me to adapt andchange and be in an ecosystem that's
thriving and growing at any point.
So, Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative.
And the last one is Consistent.
And it's not consistent as them "showingup every day." I swear to goodness, I
want all coaches, service providers,anybody who is an online person to
(13:25):
stop saying consistent means is showingup every day in the same fucking way.
Stop doing it.
Just please, sweet baby gods.
I'm begging you.
Just do not do that.
Because consistent is showingup as your needs allow.
And again, I'm very body-based.
I'm very much in tune with whatmy body needs and how I, move
in the world, and what I need inorder to show up as my best self.
(13:48):
And so when I'm thinking about Consistent,it's allowing myself to check in
with what I need and how I'm movingthrough the day and going, "Okay, cool.
This is the energy thatI have for the day.
Maybe my definition of consistent meansthat I'm only showing up a little bit.
But I'm still showing up, so that meansI'm still consistent." Even if it's
something like, "my consistency today isjust checking in to do a little journal
prompt." That means I'm still consistent.
(14:09):
So my SLIC system is really about takingoff the pressure that SMART goals put in.
It's really taking off the expectationsof success that the SMART goal really
like hammers in dust, and really goes,"Okay, cool. What do you need to know
about yourself right now in order toshow up today with the tools, knowledge,
resources, and energy that you havealready, and letting that be enough."
(14:33):
The thing that really catches my ear,thinking about some of the clients I work
with who have either been conditioned orwho have evolved to be cut off from body.
And like a minute ago when we were talkingabout SMART goals, the term that came
to mind was "self-abandoning." Like,the singular focus on this one outcome.
(14:57):
That to me is really arbitrary, it'ssometimes at the exclusion of our
somatic awareness or our selves.
And so I'd love for the listeners who arelistening and their brains are still in
the space of, "I have to" or "I can't"or who live in the conditioned binary.
(15:25):
What would you say to someone eitherdrawing from your work with clients
or from your own evolution, what wouldyou say to someone who's listening
and is like still in that space?
The first thing I'd ask you to dois invite a little bit of grace
and compassion for yourself.
Because these are reallyingrained systems.
We are indoctrinated into likecapitalism and the patriarchy and
(15:50):
deciding who we are and who weshould be from a very young age.
And we are not told that there ispossibility to be anything other
than what you're expected to be.
There's probably not gonna be a big momentwhere you're gonna go, "Okay, this binary
is not working for me." It's going torequire a lot of grace and compassion to
even just have that self-awareness to be,"Oh, this is not working." So I would say:
(16:14):
One, offering that grace and compassion.
And two, start looking at littlemicro things that you're doing during
the day, and start paying attention.
Taking notes.
Whether that's doing an energy tracker.
I think one of the thing firstthings I did was track, "Do I
have more energy in the morning?
Do I have more energy at night?
Are there pockets of day where I have moreenergy?" Because that was allowing me more
space to actually figure out and be morebrave and comfortable in myself to have
(16:39):
a moment to step back and start thinkingcritically about how I'm moving in the
world and how I'm showing up in the world.
But, grace and compassion, and then takingthese small moments to start getting a
little bit of self-awareness about allthe ways in which you are getting really
rigid on "I have to do it this way" or "ithas to be this way," and going and just
starting to invite a little curiosity.
(17:00):
Why does it have to be that way?
Who says it has to be this way?
What story is it telling me about whathappens if I don't do it this way?
And letting just those littlesmall nudges be enough.
Because it's gonna be babysteps for a long time.
unless you, of course decide to go ona Vogue runway and and decide that you
are coming home to yourself and cominghome to an identity that is completely
(17:22):
outside what society is deemed asquote-unquote “normal.” Unless you
have that moment, you're gonna haveto pull out these bricks bit by bit.
Bit by bit.
So it's going to take some time.
I worry, like if the catwalk doesn'twork, maybe you're just that person, it's
like, "Okay, cool, this isn't working.Let's just get a steamroller and knock it
down." There's always gonna be options.
But that grace and space, to have alittle compassion for yourself, to have
(17:45):
a little bit of curiosity, and to starthaving those brave questions about the
way the world works and your place andit, and does it need to be that way?
Every person starts somewhere.
Just seeing how disconnected peoplebecome from self and self-care
and body-based experiences.
(18:06):
I just think there's a lot to be talkedabout because even if people don't
feel it or get it right away, there'ssomething at some point in their life
where they're gonna be like, whoa, lookat that — I'm looking at bees right now
pollinating blackberry flowers rightoutside my door, and it's like, whoa.
(18:30):
You know, like, we have thosemoments that stop us and remind
us that we are living beings in aworld, not just cogs in machines.
And you just said something toothat made me think about something.
'cause you're talking about people who arein a body and, you might be in a body that
feels a little, like not only disconnectedfrom your brain, but feels like dead.
Like your body just kind offeels like it's on autopilot.
(18:51):
And so trying to have those questionsthat I posed might feel really
big and might feel really scary.
It might feel really unnerving,because you were starting to question.
So grace and compassionmight not be enough.
And what I would invite you to doto that is find like some kind of
movement practice to start gettingthose feelings to move, because your
feelings, if they get stuck in yourbody, it's just gonna continue to go.
(19:13):
And you're gonna start feelingreally physical effects for it.
Allowing those feelings to move throughit, something where you can start
noticing how your body is moving inspace, and start paying attention to, like
— especially when you're on walks, noticinghow the balls to your feet strike the
ground and just paying attention to that.
That way, you're not like outside ofyour body and feeling like it feels
unsafe or it doesn't feel brave for you.
(19:33):
I don't wanna say "safe" becausesafe means a lot of different things.
It's very subjective.
I think more "brave." It feelsmore brave to be in your body.
So just start paying attentionto those small things.
And if it starts feelingtoo much, then back up.
Retreat.
Retreat, go back intothat like mind-numbness.
Keep building in little increments.
Again, it's baby steps.
Working with your body, especiallywhen it doesn't feel brave to be in
(19:56):
your body, takes a very long time.
It takes a lot of tears,it takes a lot of swearing.
I think I cussed for like yearsbecause my body just did not feel safe.
And I had to take baby steps.
Even like meditation was really hard.
It's going to take time.
Especially the more that yourbody feels unsafe, especially
people who are carrying trauma.
I don't say that I'm trauma-informed.
I say I'm more trauma-conscious.
I'm aware that people move inthe world and have traumatic
(20:18):
experiences, and your body justsometimes carries the memories of it.
Our bodies do keep the score of that.
And so it takes a little bit of time toget your body used to the fact that it
is feeling brave, that it is feeling alittle bit more brave in this moment.
And so again, it's baby steps.
It's taking the time to bepatient, which is why I said grace
and capacity in the beginning.
Yeah.
(20:38):
My last guest, Shauna Bryant,is a breathwork, instructor, and
she talked about titration, likelittle bits to titrate up, which
is what I'm hearing from you also.
But I'd just love to hear a little bitabout, you know, with all of the things
that you could do with your life andwork and energy, why have you chosen
(21:00):
this kind of work that queers work?
Or what drew you to it?
For me, queers hold a specialkind of magic, especially
like gender-expansive folks.
And for people who are not awareof my language, gender-expansive is
anybody who, doesn't really identifywith the genders male and female.
They're kind of more outthere, more expansive.
(21:21):
There's a lot of unfurling.
So that's what I callgender-expansive folks, because
again, possibility and curiosity.
It is legit one of the things that Iprize and one of the things I value.
You know, you could be leveraging yourskills and talent and everything that is
you in any millions of different fields,and you've chosen to work with people kind
(21:42):
of around their careers and the workplace.
So what drew you to doing thiswork in the workplace setting
and in the career setting?
So for me queers, they'rea special kind of magic.
As somebody who identifiesas queer, they're my people.
And before I was doing this work, Iwas working in community spaces, doing
prison abolition work, working withlike formerly incarcerated queer people.
(22:03):
I originally started actuallydoing criminal justice policy.
That master's degree in policy came in.
And so I was doing, I was directingpolicy at a national level and I hated it.
Absolutely.
This was before like my gender unfurled,and I kind of unfolded that flag.
But buttoned-up suits?
It wasn't fitting my body.
And I knew even when I was getting thatdegree that it was just gonna be awful.
(22:28):
And then I was going to hate it.
I was gonna be able to do so muchgood, but it was not gonna be
something I was going to enjoy.
And I got lucky that I got to get to workin a nonprofit organization, and doing
like prison abolition work, because Idid get a bit of that community stuff.
And, and it was good because I gotto decide what policy looked like.
(22:48):
I still had to work on the hill andstill had to influence like lobbyists
and reps and have long conversationsand have to make compromises.
And you were just alwaystrying to figure out where am
I drawing my line in the sand?
I always had to think criticallyabout how much harm am I causing?
Is this going to cause harm long term?
What's the compromisethat I have to make here?
(23:08):
And so I started looking at frameworkslike transformative and restorative
justice, which takes that step forwardand looks at like, what are all the
systemic ways in which harm is beingcaused, and how do we make repairs there?
And so as I was doing this working, kindof deepening my understanding of what
healing justice and transformative andrestorative justice looks like, I started
realizing that I was not cut out to bemaking this change on a macro level.
(23:33):
Yes, I loved it.
And I love being able tomake big impact like that.
I'm an introvert, butI'm also very personable.
I do love talking to people andI do like getting to know people.
I love to hold space for people.
I like hearing their stories and likehelping them figure out how to move
in the world in a way where they don'tfeel like they have to be shamed or have
to be judged for things that they havedone or experiences that they have had.
(23:56):
I wanted to do it on a micro level.
And I was like, there's notreally anything going on in like
the coaching space right now.
This was around 2020-ish, 2021-ish.
So I was still working in nonprofit,and kind of building like a
spiritual coaching practice thatwas working with people like this.
And so I started doing just one-on-onework with people and helping them
figure out like, how do we dotransformative justice at a micro level?
(24:18):
How do we do it on a person level?
And over time, it kind of evolved.
I'd already built my business.
I was like, okay, cool.
So now that I know there's lots ofqueers and spiritual people who are
building businesses, and yes, they wantthe transformative justice, that means
that I get to talk about social justice.
Now I get to talk about likehow to be anti-racist, and
anti-capitalist, and anti-system.
And how do we build theseinto your businesses?
(24:39):
What does that look like?
And that's where I'm at, figuringout what all this looks like.
So roundabout story, how I got all intothis is just like, queer people are magic.
And I want that magic tobe shared with everybody.
And I want that magic to be shared ina way that feels good for whoever is
casting those spells and like makingthose potions, and in a way where they
(24:59):
feel celebrated and not exploited.
Because so many people who falloutside the norm of the cishet
patriarchy are being erased.
And they're having violence acted on, andthere's just so much where their magic
and their specialness is getting dimmed.
And it's not to say that people aren'tlike lighting up, but trying to be in
(25:20):
that world where that constant pressureto be somebody that they're not, and being
forced to fit in a world that was neverdesigned for them in the first place.
I don't want us to besitting in that world.
I wanna break open that box, break openthose binaries, and allow us to all move
in spaces where we feel celebrated, wherewe feel held, where we are well-resourced
(25:40):
to live the lives that we deserve.
Because this capitalistsystem has got to fucking go.
I'm fucking over it.
Like exploiting people, for what reason?
So some billionaire can have anextra $2 in their bank account?
Like for what reason?
One of the things that I've enjoyedso much in watching your work since
(26:01):
we connected, is the role that yourorganizing background plays in.
A lot of our people internalize, "what'swrong with me?" Like, that was the
voice in my head for a long, long time.
"What's wrong with me at work?
What's wrong with me that I can't justchill the fuck out, what's wrong with me
(26:22):
that I can't understand what's expectedof me?" You know, it's that steady
stream of "what's wrong with me?" voices.
I recognized finally that therewas nothing wrong with me.
I was in environments that weren'tfertile for me, and I could
create an environment that is.
What I love about your organizingbackground is there's so little attention
(26:43):
paid to actually recognizing the actof harm that happens in workplaces.
Your approach and the way that you workwith people, your experience with trying
to write actual harms from your organizingbackground, comes through in how you see
(27:04):
people in their work and in their careers.
And I just think that's really special.
I think there's so much focus placed onthe individual pulling themselves up, and
so little focus on the active recoveryfrom harm and recognition of harm that
happens in workplaces and in careers.
(27:24):
That's just one of the things that Ireally enjoy seeing about what you do.
Thank you.
I'm so tired of seeing people try to fitin spaces too small for their brilliance.
There are just so many people who arebrilliant and who are smart and who
are so very capable and have the skillsand the knowledge and the capacity
to do so much good in this world.
(27:45):
Sometimes it just feels like theworld has just gotten to them and
that light has gotten really dim.
I can still see it.
I want this for you.
I wanna be able to see peoplelike turn that light on.
I want them to open up like a flower.
I want them to bloom into the personthat they know themselves to be.
They just need a littlehelp for remembering it.
They need a little nudge to rememberthat they've always been this way.
(28:09):
Just the world got to them.
And so we just need to unmakethe world a little bit so they
can find their own place here.
I also think it's important among mylistenership, it's a really broad swath
of people, and there are gonna be peoplewho are really excited to hear us talking
about queerness, and then there are gonnabe people who are like, what the fuck?
(28:32):
I think it's really important.
people who aren't a part of the queercommunity, might listen to part of this
conversation and think it's not for them.
And what I'm saying is it is absolutelyfor you too, because all of us need
that connection with self and thatunfurling that you're talking about.
(28:52):
Queer for me is anybody who islooking at the system and realizing
that they don't fit and they wantto do something about not fitting.
They see that there are issues and thatthere are challenges and that there
are very real problems, the Holocaustthat's happening in Palestine, the
ICE raids that were happening in LA,everything that's happening in Sudan
and Congo, and just all of these things.
(29:15):
If you see these things and youknow that there is something that
is deeply disturbing and not okayabout that, and you are actively
working towards dismantling thatand doing something to, bring about
change, then I see you as queer.
If you're seeing the world and realizingthat it's not perfect and you wanna do
something about it, and you are doingsomething about it, then for me that's
queer enough because you're, you'relegitimately queering the system.
(29:38):
You're changing the system.
You're transforming it into somethingthat it's never been before.
Yeah.
I think the part of why I am so gratefulthat we've like that we intersected is.
I even struggle withthe term "goal setting".
Like I want to come up with somethingother than the term "goal setting"
(30:01):
to describe what we're talking about.
Because when we talk about goal setting,we think about external accomplishment or
achievement of that one specific thing.
In my work and my world, and I think inyours, when we talk about goal setting,
we're talking about tapping into whatwe know deeply to be true and important
(30:21):
within to point us in the direction oflearning, growth, self-knowing, curiosity.
It's like the furthest thingfrom what most people think of
when they think of goal setting.
And I felt really alone in that.
Like, what is it with me thatwhen I think about goal setting,
I see it so differently?
(30:42):
And so it's just been really fun to findsomeone else who, when we talk about
goal setting, we can talk about it inthis completely different way together.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, and I've reallyenjoyed this conversation.
But I also love that that's kindof like queer, queering biz.
It's like redefining words and redefiningspaces, making them our own, and claiming
our power and claiming our sovereignty.
And just saying, this is mine.
(31:03):
And I'm like, well, we'vealready reclaimed queer.
Can we reclaim goals?
Like, can we just reclaim it?
I mean, not to like put atotally cheesy point on it, but
we're queering goal setting.
Right, we are.
And we're not alone.
I know, but yeah, I'm stillhaving like a very like, bodily
reaction to the word goal.
Like I just, feel like I just wannalike hairball, I just wanna choke on it.
(31:26):
Because I spend more time now in themotorcycle racing, it's like I spend
so much time now on the sports side ofthings where goal setting is like we're
talking about the process of becoming.
It is not the destination.
I don't have that visceral reaction tothe term goal setting anymore, but I do
(31:48):
just wish there was a way to distinguishwhat we're talking about from that term.
Yeah.
And now I'm like, maybe it'sjust, what are you becoming?
What if it's not goal setting?
What if it's just becoming,what are you becoming?
That, yeah, that just gave me goosebumps.
I like that idea, like becoming,instead of goal setting.
Yeah, I like that too.
Well, I think that's the perfect note.
(32:10):
I know you have a launch going rightnow, if people wanna connect with
you or they wanna hear more aboutyour work, where can they find you?
I'm super excited because by thetime this episode comes out, I will
have my Instagram nine-grid, Solike that would be the good space.
But I am, its_mxzephy across all social.
So that's I-T-S underscore M-XZ-E-P-H-Y across all of them.
(32:31):
I'm more on Threads than I amanywhere else, but I have been
showing up on Instagram Storiesbecause I can do talking heads.
I am launching something calledthe Aligned as Fuck Biz Clinic.
So I'm in the middle oflaunching it now There's so much
collective care built into it.
10% of every sale goes to anorganization that people vote on.
Every tenth session goes to somebodywho needs it, and then there's also
a 20-minute follow up that peoplecan have, but they can donate that
(32:52):
20-minute to somebody who needs it.
Collective care is the business plan, andit's making sure that we are all taken
care of and we are all well-resourced.
And the only way we can do that is by bothtaking care of ourselves and then turning
around and taking care of everybody else.
Thank you so much for making the time.
This is so awesome.
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
This has been a lot of fun.
(33:13):
It's actually been thehighlight of my day.
That shift from goal setting tobecoming — I am gonna be sitting
with that one for a while.
If you found yourself nodding alongduring our critique of SMART goals, or
if Zeph's SLIC Method resonates withyou, I would love to hear about it.
You can find me on most socialmedia platforms @saralobkovich or
(33:35):
email me at sara@thinkydoers.com.
You can find Zeph across allsocial platforms @its_mxzephy.
Zeph is most active on Threadswhere we met, but you'll also find
them sharing wisdom on Instagram.
If you have questions, suggestions,or would like to connect, you
(33:58):
can always find me at findrc.coor on any social media platform.
I'm pretty sure I'm the onlySara Lobkovich out there.
And if you haven't already,please subscribe to Thinkydoers
wherever you listen to podcastsand consider leaving us a review.
These conversations matter andthey reach more people when you
help spread and amplify them.
Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.
I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich,and I am a Thinkydoer.
I'm here to help those of us whoare wired for change find more
satisfaction, frustration, lessfriction, and more flow in our work.
Today I have a very niche treat.
I made a new friend on Threads overour mutual loathing of smart goals.
(00:26):
So today my guest is Zeph, an anti-husslebusiness strategist who helps radical
business owners build what they call"breathe-easy businesses." When Zeph
and I connected about our mutualloathing — yes, loathing — of SMART
goals on a social media thread, Iknew we had to have this conversation.
I don't know many peoplewho feel as strongly about.
(00:47):
The fine points of goal setting asI do if you've ever felt boxed in by
traditional goal-setting practices.
If you've wondered why hitting yourtargets doesn't always feel like
success, or if you're curious aboutwhat queering your approach to work
might look like, this episode's for you.
We're going to explore Zeph's SLICmethod for goal setting, talk about why
(01:08):
self-care is not optional, and we happento land on a pretty beautiful reframe.
That might just change how youthink about goals altogether.
So let's get into the episode.
Zeph, I wanna welcome you to Thinkydoers.
We met in a kind of funny way.
Yeah, we did.
Over our mutual loathing ofSMART goals on a Threads post.
(01:33):
I was like, holy shit, someone whohates SMART goals as much as I do.
We've gotta meet.
And so we did.
And you're definitely a Thinkydoer.
I couldn't wait to get you on the podcast.
For folks who don't know you yet though,let's hear who are you, what do you do?
I'm super excited about it.
So if you've not seen me running aroundthese internet streets — hi, hello babes.
(01:55):
I'm an anti-hussle biz strategistshowing radical biz babes how to build
breathe-easy business that make theirbrains happy and let their bodies breathe.
I'm all about simple, values-alignedsystems that fit in a backpack — light,
flexible, and ready to go wherever I go.
There's systems built within,capacity-driven curiosity, so you can
show up with enough space to choose yourown biz adventure without burning out,
(02:16):
where your biz gets to be the portal toa life you actually want to live, one
that's well resourced and rooted in care.
This is Biz is Unusual, and it's whatmakes biz sustainable and subversive
in this capitalistic hellscape.
Because you don't have to choosebetween doing good and doing biz.
Collective care is the biz plan.
I got goosebumps at the end.
I love it.
Welcome.
(02:36):
You expressed your loathing of SMARTgoals online, and I think there
are probably very few people in theworld who have feelings as strong
about SMART goals as you and I do.
there are a lot of people who don'tenjoy them, but I'd just love to
hear from you, why do you have sucha visceral reaction to SMART goals?
(02:56):
Yeah, thank you.
I love this question.
So for me, I'm very expansive.
So for me it's all about possibility,it's all about curiosity, it's about
expanding into who you're becomingand leaving behind who you were.
And so for me, when I think about SMARTgoals, SMART goals are very binary.
You either succeed or you fail.
And I'm not somebody whodoes the binary very well.
(03:17):
I have a very rebellious streak in me.
And It feels very rigid,it feels very structured.
It feels like there's not a lot ofleeway to not only have a different
outcome, but there's not a lot ofspace to actually enjoy the journey as
you're getting to where you want to go.
There's no sense of play,there's no sense of adventure,
(03:38):
there's no sense of exploration.
It's all reliant on the actual outcome— like, what is it, the thing that you want?
And also, what I find with thatis that when we decide the thing
that we want, it's like, why did wedecide that was a thing that we want?
Because most of the time, the goals thatsomebody's already prescribed for us.
Because it's easier to fall into that.
We think about things like money, orwe think about things like visibility.
(03:59):
And I'm like, why are those themetrics that we have decided upon, that
that is what our success looks like?
And I'm like, as somebody who's expansive,that doesn't really fly well with me.
Because that's not how I see success.
That's not how successlives and feels in my body.
I love this so much because my reasonsfor loathing SMART goals are very
(04:22):
mechanical, and,\ yours are very likeenergetic and emotional and beyond that.
And I think that's justabsolutely delightful.
For me, incoherence andambiguity are my kryptonites.
I encountered smart goal settingfirst when I was an employee and
had to write SMART goals for work orwas assigned SMART goals for work.
(04:47):
And every time I say SMARTgoals, I'm putting "goals" in
quotation marks in my head.
Because to me, SMART goalsare planning activity, and
that's plans, not goal setting.
But when I started to work with SMARTgoals in the workplace, I had one
workplace where SMART has a originalmeaning: Specific, Measurable.
(05:08):
Achievable or Attainable,Relevant, and Time-bound.
But I was in a workplace where A meant"Achievable" and R meant "Realistic".
Because not everybody sticksto the original, you know,
what the term stand for.
There's a whole bunch of variations.
And so I sat down to write my goals andI'm like, what the fuck is the difference
(05:31):
between achievable and realistic?
Right.
And what does specific even mean?
Yeah.
I'm a words girl.
I'm a semantics nerd.
And so when we get into the semanticsand the semantics aren't helpful for
me, or aren't meaningful or aren'tconsistent, it's basically a term when
what we're aiming for is shared meaning.
(05:52):
I don't know that SMARTgoals really do that for us.
So for me, it's reallymechanical and like cognitive.
you and I have both developedalternative goal-setting practices.
You mentioned "specific", and why wasthat the first word in SMART that you
went to when you're like, what the fuck?
(06:12):
Tell me more about that.
When I hear "specific," it, itfeels like it's a narrowing down.
There's a very narrow focus.
There's a very like, "Let'sclose in and gets straight to the
point." And I'm like, why are wegonna get straight to the point?
Because when we get straight and weget like that tunnel vision, there's
an entire world that's happening aroundyou — and it's like you can't see.
You don't get to see the path.
(06:33):
It's like you're legit andlike an underwater tunnel
that you're driving through.
And you know that there's a worldaround you, but it's not safe
enough for you to be outside.
So there's an element of not feeling safe.
There's an element of not being able toenjoy the journey and enjoying the view.
And I think in the process of all ofthat, people are missing the nuance,
(06:53):
they're missing the emotional cues.
They're missing what it feels liketo be alive in the journey of getting
to where you want to get, withwhatever your outcome, your goal.
As somebody who values curiosityand exploration I just feel
like I'm getting boxed in.
For what reason?
What is the reason?
I really love that you brought up fear inthat context of closing off the curiosity
(07:16):
and the learning journey that happens.
And because I do, in thework that I do in corporate
environments, I see so much fear.
And so SMART goals are planning ouractivity, so they feel within our control.
And so I think that's part ofwhy some people are drawn to them
(07:37):
or find some comfort in them.
But then I'm with you.
It's like, then that plan isat the exclusion of what we
could discover on the way.
Right.
And I'm not even sure those goals areeven things that are in our control.
Because especially when it's anexternal metric of success, which is
(07:59):
where most of our goals lie, is likeon money, or I don't know, whatever.
I've been so focused on away from externalmetrics, I can't even name them anymore.
For me, it's like those are thingsthat are outside my control.
I can't decide how much money I make.
Yeah, I can put in a lot of effort,but if the market's not right,
or I haven't attracted right-fitclients, or just — myriad amounts of
reasons that may not be within it.
(08:21):
So this idea of goals and outcomesbeing within our control, I'm
like, well that's just silly.
'Cause are they really?
Absolutely.
that's why I usually say an "illusionof control." Because even what
we feel like we control — isn't.
There are more variables.
It's an illusion, or a comfortingillusion of control, in most situations.
(08:43):
When we spoke the first time,you mentioned there's no room
for feelings in SMART goals.
So I'd love for you to tell me alittle bit more about, for you, what
gets lost when people are reallyonly focused on those SMART outcomes?
Yeah.
I'm a data nerd, so I understand the powerof quantitative data and qualitative data.
(09:05):
They have very specific reasonsfor existing and you use them
for very specific reasonsand very specific purpose.
I have a master's in policy, soI understand numbers, but I also
understand that qualitative issomething you also need, because
that's where the storytelling happens.
But for me, when I think about likeSMART goals and that quantitative
thing, I think my hang-up with thequantitative and the numbers game is
(09:27):
that's the only thing that you go towards.
It's either you pass or fail.
This theme of exploration and curiositywill play throughout every number,
every letter that SMART stands for.
Because you're just so focusedon getting to that number that
everything else falls away.
And I personally don't feel like I get anopportunity to enjoy the process, because
(09:47):
I'm so stressed and so focused on gettingthat number that nothing else matters.
I'm one of those people that is very typeA — I've gotten better about not being so
type A as I've fallen into my ripe old age— but I used to be that person who was like,
"I have to get to this." And at all costs.
By any means necessary.
(10:08):
Which means that, again, tunnel vision.
You're not seeing anything around you.
You're not being able to enjoy it.
It almost feels like you're losing asense of connection with yourself too.
Because you're so focused on gettingthere that you're not even paying
attention to what your body might need.
I know that when I'm chasing goalslike that, there would be times where
I would skip meals, I wouldn't drinkwater, I would not move out of a
chair because I was so hyper-focusedon getting to where I wanted to go,
(10:30):
that again, nothing else mattered.
So my body was like a desiccatedmummy sitting in a chair, and it's
like, baby, we cannot do this.
This is not happening.
You have an alternative approachto goal setting that you
advocate for — the SLIC method.
So tell me about yourSLIC goal-setting system.
(10:50):
So SLIC stands for Sustainable,Long-term, Iterative, and Consistent.
And the S is super important.
I'm that too.
I'm that self-care girlie.
I'm going to put self-care aboveeverything else because if you are
not taking care of yourself, there'sno way in hell you're gonna be
able to take care of anybody else.
And also, when you take care of yourself,you are sending a gentle reminder that
you matter and that your needs matter.
And I think in this world where it'scapitalism and the patriarchy and
(11:12):
just systems in general that aredoing everything to tell you that
you are not worthy and that you arenot deserving, that we have to be
very proactive in making sure thatwe are taking care of ourselves.
So sustainability, self-care, thosekinds of things will always be at the top
of my list, which is why that's first.
So there's Sustainable, Long-term— oftentimes SMART goals feel like
(11:34):
they're very focused on the short term.
It's like, you get toa goal and that's it.
There's nothing else.
But I'm thinking about, okay, if I hitthis goal, or wherever I'm trying to
get to, that's not the end of the story.
There's also what comes next.
There's also the journey that gets there.
It's allowing myself to take a momentto pause and breathe and invite in a lot
more space in my body, and invite in morespace in my biz or wherever I'm working.
(11:57):
It's focusing on long-termoutcome, long-term progress.
Iterative, so I think one of the otherfailings of SMART goals is that it
does not allow opportunity for youto kind of learn and fuck it up and
make mistakes and pivot and, you know,change things up if something happens.
Because it's got that very es/no,pass/fail, succeed/fail binary.
(12:20):
And iterative goes, "Okay cool, I canrelax into this. This is great." Like,
let me go on this little side quest.
Maybe today I want to, Idon't know, take a rest today.
Or maybe I wanna go exploresomething different.
It might kind of tangibly has somethingto do with this, but not really, and
it's gonna get me closer to this.
But if I was following a SMART goal,I would not be able to go explore it,
because it's a very tenuous thread.
(12:41):
So it's like, "Okay, I can't do thisbecause if I go focus on the quest, I
can't focus on the the goal that I'mgetting to." So I want something that's
iterative and allows me to, again,play and explore and get curious.
Because if I open up this door andallow myself to go choose this side
quest, who knows what I might find?
I might be able to takein more information.
I might be able to learn somethingdifferent that says, "Okay, maybe this
(13:03):
direction you're going isn't right andwe need to pivot and we need to change."
So this is allowing me to adapt andchange and be in an ecosystem that's
thriving and growing at any point.
So, Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative.
And the last one is Consistent.
And it's not consistent as them "showingup every day." I swear to goodness, I
want all coaches, service providers,anybody who is an online person to
(13:25):
stop saying consistent means is showingup every day in the same fucking way.
Stop doing it.
Just please, sweet baby gods.
I'm begging you.
Just do not do that.
Because consistent is showingup as your needs allow.
And again, I'm very body-based.
I'm very much in tune with whatmy body needs and how I, move
in the world, and what I need inorder to show up as my best self.
(13:48):
And so when I'm thinking about Consistent,it's allowing myself to check in
with what I need and how I'm movingthrough the day and going, "Okay, cool.
This is the energy thatI have for the day.
Maybe my definition of consistent meansthat I'm only showing up a little bit.
But I'm still showing up, so that meansI'm still consistent." Even if it's
something like, "my consistency today isjust checking in to do a little journal
prompt." That means I'm still consistent.
(14:09):
So my SLIC system is really about takingoff the pressure that SMART goals put in.
It's really taking off the expectationsof success that the SMART goal really
like hammers in dust, and really goes,"Okay, cool. What do you need to know
about yourself right now in order toshow up today with the tools, knowledge,
resources, and energy that you havealready, and letting that be enough."
(14:33):
The thing that really catches my ear,thinking about some of the clients I work
with who have either been conditioned orwho have evolved to be cut off from body.
And like a minute ago when we were talkingabout SMART goals, the term that came
to mind was "self-abandoning." Like,the singular focus on this one outcome.
(14:57):
That to me is really arbitrary, it'ssometimes at the exclusion of our
somatic awareness or our selves.
And so I'd love for the listeners who arelistening and their brains are still in
the space of, "I have to" or "I can't"or who live in the conditioned binary.
(15:25):
What would you say to someone eitherdrawing from your work with clients
or from your own evolution, what wouldyou say to someone who's listening
and is like still in that space?
The first thing I'd ask you to dois invite a little bit of grace
and compassion for yourself.
Because these are reallyingrained systems.
We are indoctrinated into likecapitalism and the patriarchy and
(15:50):
deciding who we are and who weshould be from a very young age.
And we are not told that there ispossibility to be anything other
than what you're expected to be.
There's probably not gonna be a big momentwhere you're gonna go, "Okay, this binary
is not working for me." It's going torequire a lot of grace and compassion to
even just have that self-awareness to be,"Oh, this is not working." So I would say:
(16:14):
One, offering that grace and compassion.
And two, start looking at littlemicro things that you're doing during
the day, and start paying attention.
Taking notes.
Whether that's doing an energy tracker.
I think one of the thing firstthings I did was track, "Do I
have more energy in the morning?
Do I have more energy at night?
Are there pockets of day where I have moreenergy?" Because that was allowing me more
space to actually figure out and be morebrave and comfortable in myself to have
(16:39):
a moment to step back and start thinkingcritically about how I'm moving in the
world and how I'm showing up in the world.
But, grace and compassion, and then takingthese small moments to start getting a
little bit of self-awareness about allthe ways in which you are getting really
rigid on "I have to do it this way" or "ithas to be this way," and going and just
starting to invite a little curiosity.
(17:00):
Why does it have to be that way?
Who says it has to be this way?
What story is it telling me about whathappens if I don't do it this way?
And letting just those littlesmall nudges be enough.
Because it's gonna be babysteps for a long time.
unless you, of course decide to go ona Vogue runway and and decide that you
are coming home to yourself and cominghome to an identity that is completely
(17:22):
outside what society is deemed asquote-unquote “normal.” Unless you
have that moment, you're gonna haveto pull out these bricks bit by bit.
Bit by bit.
So it's going to take some time.
I worry, like if the catwalk doesn'twork, maybe you're just that person, it's
like, "Okay, cool, this isn't working.Let's just get a steamroller and knock it
down." There's always gonna be options.
But that grace and space, to have alittle compassion for yourself, to have
(17:45):
a little bit of curiosity, and to starthaving those brave questions about the
way the world works and your place andit, and does it need to be that way?
Every person starts somewhere.
Just seeing how disconnected peoplebecome from self and self-care
and body-based experiences.
(18:06):
I just think there's a lot to be talkedabout because even if people don't
feel it or get it right away, there'ssomething at some point in their life
where they're gonna be like, whoa, lookat that — I'm looking at bees right now
pollinating blackberry flowers rightoutside my door, and it's like, whoa.
(18:30):
You know, like, we have thosemoments that stop us and remind
us that we are living beings in aworld, not just cogs in machines.
And you just said something toothat made me think about something.
'cause you're talking about people who arein a body and, you might be in a body that
feels a little, like not only disconnectedfrom your brain, but feels like dead.
Like your body just kind offeels like it's on autopilot.
(18:51):
And so trying to have those questionsthat I posed might feel really
big and might feel really scary.
It might feel really unnerving,because you were starting to question.
So grace and compassionmight not be enough.
And what I would invite you to doto that is find like some kind of
movement practice to start gettingthose feelings to move, because your
feelings, if they get stuck in yourbody, it's just gonna continue to go.
(19:13):
And you're gonna start feelingreally physical effects for it.
Allowing those feelings to move throughit, something where you can start
noticing how your body is moving inspace, and start paying attention to, like
— especially when you're on walks, noticinghow the balls to your feet strike the
ground and just paying attention to that.
That way, you're not like outside ofyour body and feeling like it feels
unsafe or it doesn't feel brave for you.
(19:33):
I don't wanna say "safe" becausesafe means a lot of different things.
It's very subjective.
I think more "brave." It feelsmore brave to be in your body.
So just start paying attentionto those small things.
And if it starts feelingtoo much, then back up.
Retreat.
Retreat, go back intothat like mind-numbness.
Keep building in little increments.
Again, it's baby steps.
Working with your body, especiallywhen it doesn't feel brave to be in
(19:56):
your body, takes a very long time.
It takes a lot of tears,it takes a lot of swearing.
I think I cussed for like yearsbecause my body just did not feel safe.
And I had to take baby steps.
Even like meditation was really hard.
It's going to take time.
Especially the more that yourbody feels unsafe, especially
people who are carrying trauma.
I don't say that I'm trauma-informed.
I say I'm more trauma-conscious.
I'm aware that people move inthe world and have traumatic
(20:18):
experiences, and your body justsometimes carries the memories of it.
Our bodies do keep the score of that.
And so it takes a little bit of time toget your body used to the fact that it
is feeling brave, that it is feeling alittle bit more brave in this moment.
And so again, it's baby steps.
It's taking the time to bepatient, which is why I said grace
and capacity in the beginning.
Yeah.
(20:38):
My last guest, Shauna Bryant,is a breathwork, instructor, and
she talked about titration, likelittle bits to titrate up, which
is what I'm hearing from you also.
But I'd just love to hear a little bitabout, you know, with all of the things
that you could do with your life andwork and energy, why have you chosen
(21:00):
this kind of work that queers work?
Or what drew you to it?
For me, queers hold a specialkind of magic, especially
like gender-expansive folks.
And for people who are not awareof my language, gender-expansive is
anybody who, doesn't really identifywith the genders male and female.
They're kind of more outthere, more expansive.
(21:21):
There's a lot of unfurling.
So that's what I callgender-expansive folks, because
again, possibility and curiosity.
It is legit one of the things that Iprize and one of the things I value.
You know, you could be leveraging yourskills and talent and everything that is
you in any millions of different fields,and you've chosen to work with people kind
(21:42):
of around their careers and the workplace.
So what drew you to doing thiswork in the workplace setting
and in the career setting?
So for me queers, they'rea special kind of magic.
As somebody who identifiesas queer, they're my people.
And before I was doing this work, Iwas working in community spaces, doing
prison abolition work, working withlike formerly incarcerated queer people.
(22:03):
I originally started actuallydoing criminal justice policy.
That master's degree in policy came in.
And so I was doing, I was directingpolicy at a national level and I hated it.
Absolutely.
This was before like my gender unfurled,and I kind of unfolded that flag.
But buttoned-up suits?
It wasn't fitting my body.
And I knew even when I was getting thatdegree that it was just gonna be awful.
(22:28):
And then I was going to hate it.
I was gonna be able to do so muchgood, but it was not gonna be
something I was going to enjoy.
And I got lucky that I got to get to workin a nonprofit organization, and doing
like prison abolition work, because Idid get a bit of that community stuff.
And, and it was good because I gotto decide what policy looked like.
(22:48):
I still had to work on the hill andstill had to influence like lobbyists
and reps and have long conversationsand have to make compromises.
And you were just alwaystrying to figure out where am
I drawing my line in the sand?
I always had to think criticallyabout how much harm am I causing?
Is this going to cause harm long term?
What's the compromisethat I have to make here?
(23:08):
And so I started looking at frameworkslike transformative and restorative
justice, which takes that step forwardand looks at like, what are all the
systemic ways in which harm is beingcaused, and how do we make repairs there?
And so as I was doing this working, kindof deepening my understanding of what
healing justice and transformative andrestorative justice looks like, I started
realizing that I was not cut out to bemaking this change on a macro level.
(23:33):
Yes, I loved it.
And I love being able tomake big impact like that.
I'm an introvert, butI'm also very personable.
I do love talking to people andI do like getting to know people.
I love to hold space for people.
I like hearing their stories and likehelping them figure out how to move
in the world in a way where they don'tfeel like they have to be shamed or have
to be judged for things that they havedone or experiences that they have had.
(23:56):
I wanted to do it on a micro level.
And I was like, there's notreally anything going on in like
the coaching space right now.
This was around 2020-ish, 2021-ish.
So I was still working in nonprofit,and kind of building like a
spiritual coaching practice thatwas working with people like this.
And so I started doing just one-on-onework with people and helping them
figure out like, how do we dotransformative justice at a micro level?
(24:18):
How do we do it on a person level?
And over time, it kind of evolved.
I'd already built my business.
I was like, okay, cool.
So now that I know there's lots ofqueers and spiritual people who are
building businesses, and yes, they wantthe transformative justice, that means
that I get to talk about social justice.
Now I get to talk about likehow to be anti-racist, and
anti-capitalist, and anti-system.
And how do we build theseinto your businesses?
(24:39):
What does that look like?
And that's where I'm at, figuringout what all this looks like.
So roundabout story, how I got all intothis is just like, queer people are magic.
And I want that magic tobe shared with everybody.
And I want that magic to be shared ina way that feels good for whoever is
casting those spells and like makingthose potions, and in a way where they
(24:59):
feel celebrated and not exploited.
Because so many people who falloutside the norm of the cishet
patriarchy are being erased.
And they're having violence acted on, andthere's just so much where their magic
and their specialness is getting dimmed.
And it's not to say that people aren'tlike lighting up, but trying to be in
(25:20):
that world where that constant pressureto be somebody that they're not, and being
forced to fit in a world that was neverdesigned for them in the first place.
I don't want us to besitting in that world.
I wanna break open that box, break openthose binaries, and allow us to all move
in spaces where we feel celebrated, wherewe feel held, where we are well-resourced
(25:40):
to live the lives that we deserve.
Because this capitalistsystem has got to fucking go.
I'm fucking over it.
Like exploiting people, for what reason?
So some billionaire can have anextra $2 in their bank account?
Like for what reason?
One of the things that I've enjoyedso much in watching your work since
(26:01):
we connected, is the role that yourorganizing background plays in.
A lot of our people internalize, "what'swrong with me?" Like, that was the
voice in my head for a long, long time.
"What's wrong with me at work?
What's wrong with me that I can't justchill the fuck out, what's wrong with me
(26:22):
that I can't understand what's expectedof me?" You know, it's that steady
stream of "what's wrong with me?" voices.
I recognized finally that therewas nothing wrong with me.
I was in environments that weren'tfertile for me, and I could
create an environment that is.
What I love about your organizingbackground is there's so little attention
(26:43):
paid to actually recognizing the actof harm that happens in workplaces.
Your approach and the way that you workwith people, your experience with trying
to write actual harms from your organizingbackground, comes through in how you see
(27:04):
people in their work and in their careers.
And I just think that's really special.
I think there's so much focus placed onthe individual pulling themselves up, and
so little focus on the active recoveryfrom harm and recognition of harm that
happens in workplaces and in careers.
(27:24):
That's just one of the things that Ireally enjoy seeing about what you do.
Thank you.
I'm so tired of seeing people try to fitin spaces too small for their brilliance.
There are just so many people who arebrilliant and who are smart and who
are so very capable and have the skillsand the knowledge and the capacity
to do so much good in this world.
(27:45):
Sometimes it just feels like theworld has just gotten to them and
that light has gotten really dim.
I can still see it.
I want this for you.
I wanna be able to see peoplelike turn that light on.
I want them to open up like a flower.
I want them to bloom into the personthat they know themselves to be.
They just need a littlehelp for remembering it.
They need a little nudge to rememberthat they've always been this way.
(28:09):
Just the world got to them.
And so we just need to unmakethe world a little bit so they
can find their own place here.
I also think it's important among mylistenership, it's a really broad swath
of people, and there are gonna be peoplewho are really excited to hear us talking
about queerness, and then there are gonnabe people who are like, what the fuck?
(28:32):
I think it's really important.
people who aren't a part of the queercommunity, might listen to part of this
conversation and think it's not for them.
And what I'm saying is it is absolutelyfor you too, because all of us need
that connection with self and thatunfurling that you're talking about.
(28:52):
Queer for me is anybody who islooking at the system and realizing
that they don't fit and they wantto do something about not fitting.
They see that there are issues and thatthere are challenges and that there
are very real problems, the Holocaustthat's happening in Palestine, the
ICE raids that were happening in LA,everything that's happening in Sudan
and Congo, and just all of these things.
(29:15):
If you see these things and youknow that there is something that
is deeply disturbing and not okayabout that, and you are actively
working towards dismantling thatand doing something to, bring about
change, then I see you as queer.
If you're seeing the world and realizingthat it's not perfect and you wanna do
something about it, and you are doingsomething about it, then for me that's
queer enough because you're, you'relegitimately queering the system.
(29:38):
You're changing the system.
You're transforming it into somethingthat it's never been before.
Yeah.
I think the part of why I am so gratefulthat we've like that we intersected is.
I even struggle withthe term "goal setting".
Like I want to come up with somethingother than the term "goal setting"
(30:01):
to describe what we're talking about.
Because when we talk about goal setting,we think about external accomplishment or
achievement of that one specific thing.
In my work and my world, and I think inyours, when we talk about goal setting,
we're talking about tapping into whatwe know deeply to be true and important
(30:21):
within to point us in the direction oflearning, growth, self-knowing, curiosity.
It's like the furthest thingfrom what most people think of
when they think of goal setting.
And I felt really alone in that.
Like, what is it with me thatwhen I think about goal setting,
I see it so differently?
(30:42):
And so it's just been really fun to findsomeone else who, when we talk about
goal setting, we can talk about it inthis completely different way together.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, and I've reallyenjoyed this conversation.
But I also love that that's kindof like queer, queering biz.
It's like redefining words and redefiningspaces, making them our own, and claiming
our power and claiming our sovereignty.
And just saying, this is mine.
(31:03):
And I'm like, well, we'vealready reclaimed queer.
Can we reclaim goals?
Like, can we just reclaim it?
I mean, not to like put atotally cheesy point on it, but
we're queering goal setting.
Right, we are.
And we're not alone.
I know, but yeah, I'm stillhaving like a very like, bodily
reaction to the word goal.
Like I just, feel like I just wannalike hairball, I just wanna choke on it.
(31:26):
Because I spend more time now in themotorcycle racing, it's like I spend
so much time now on the sports side ofthings where goal setting is like we're
talking about the process of becoming.
It is not the destination.
I don't have that visceral reaction tothe term goal setting anymore, but I do
(31:48):
just wish there was a way to distinguishwhat we're talking about from that term.
Yeah.
And now I'm like, maybe it'sjust, what are you becoming?
What if it's not goal setting?
What if it's just becoming,what are you becoming?
That, yeah, that just gave me goosebumps.
I like that idea, like becoming,instead of goal setting.
Yeah, I like that too.
Well, I think that's the perfect note.
(32:10):
I know you have a launch going rightnow, if people wanna connect with
you or they wanna hear more aboutyour work, where can they find you?
I'm super excited because by thetime this episode comes out, I will
have my Instagram nine-grid, Solike that would be the good space.
But I am, its_mxzephy across all social.
So that's I-T-S underscore M-XZ-E-P-H-Y across all of them.
(32:31):
I'm more on Threads than I amanywhere else, but I have been
showing up on Instagram Storiesbecause I can do talking heads.
I am launching something calledthe Aligned as Fuck Biz Clinic.
So I'm in the middle oflaunching it now There's so much
collective care built into it.
10% of every sale goes to anorganization that people vote on.
Every tenth session goes to somebodywho needs it, and then there's also
a 20-minute follow up that peoplecan have, but they can donate that
(32:52):
20-minute to somebody who needs it.
Collective care is the business plan, andit's making sure that we are all taken
care of and we are all well-resourced.
And the only way we can do that is by bothtaking care of ourselves and then turning
around and taking care of everybody else.
Thank you so much for making the time.
This is so awesome.
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
This has been a lot of fun.
(33:13):
It's actually been thehighlight of my day.
That shift from goal setting tobecoming — I am gonna be sitting
with that one for a while.
If you found yourself nodding alongduring our critique of SMART goals, or
if Zeph's SLIC Method resonates withyou, I would love to hear about it.
You can find me on most socialmedia platforms @saralobkovich or
(33:35):
email me at sara@thinkydoers.com.
You can find Zeph across allsocial platforms @its_mxzephy.
Zeph is most active on Threadswhere we met, but you'll also find
them sharing wisdom on Instagram.
If you have questions, suggestions,or would like to connect, you
(33:58):
can always find me at findrc.coor on any social media platform.
I'm pretty sure I'm the onlySara Lobkovich out there.
And if you haven't already,please subscribe to Thinkydoers
wherever you listen to podcastsand consider leaving us a review.
These conversations matter andthey reach more people when you
help spread and amplify them.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.