What happens when hip-hop methodology meets ancient glassblowing traditions?
In this captivating conversation, I sit down with Leo Tecosky, a glass artist who's redefining what it means to honor craft traditions while pushing creative boundaries. From his childhood memories of watching a goldsmith neighbor work to discovering the mesmerizing world of molten glass in art school, Leo shares how early exposure to hip-hop culture became the driving force behind his unique approach to fine art.
We explore how travel, cultural investigation, and an insatiable hunger for knowledge fuel his creative process. Leo opens up about the challenges of bridging technical mastery with artistic vision, and how he uses what he calls "hip-hop methodology" to remix centuries-old techniques for contemporary expression. This is a conversation about finding your creative voice when it exists at the intersection of multiple worlds.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Creative Journeys
03:08 Childhood Influences and Early Artistic Exposure
06:01 Education and the Path to Art School
08:54 Discovering Glassblowing and Artistic Techniques
12:02 Creative Process and Finding Artistic Voice
15:14 The Influence of Hip-Hop on Art
17:57 Exploring Graffiti and Material Aesthetics
21:07 Personal Passions and Lifelong Learning
Featured Video Footage:
Corning Museum of Glass (CMoG). (2021, December 2). Leo Tecosky, 36th Rakow Commission Recipient [Video].
YouTube. Leo Tecosky, 36th Rakow Commission Recipient
Connect With Leo:
Website: Leo’s Website
Support the Show
Website: Martine Severin
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Subscribe to the Newsletter: Martine’s Substack
This is How We Create is produced by Martine Severin. This episode was edited by Daniel Espinosa.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Yo, this is Leo Tukoski and this is how I create.
Welcome to This is How We Create, a show that digs deeper into the creative life ofcontemporary artists of color.
Discover what feeds their creativity and how they've found or are finding their artisticvoice.
Through these intimate and candid conversations, you'll gain insights into the lives ofcreative professionals of color that are hard to find anywhere else.
(00:27):
Welcome back to This is How We Create.
On this episode, we welcome Leo Tokoski to the show.
Hey Leo.
Leo, start, could you please tell us a little bit about yourself and the creative workthat you do?
Absolutely.
I'm a glassblower and glass artist.
I make sculpture and installation using blown glass.
(00:52):
Leo, could you share with us your childhood memories and what it was like to grow up?
So from what I understand, you grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and then you moved toFlorida.
Can you talk to us about your early childhood and any exposures to art that youexperienced along the way?
(01:14):
I was born in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
I lived there till I was about 10 with my family.
And actually some of my earliest memories of creating were that one of our neighbors was agoldsmith.
And I remember my mother taking me over to his studio in his house to see how he madejewelry.
(01:36):
And after a while, I remember the Smith would let me use some of his tools and hammer onsome metal.
And that was something that I came up in my memory recently.
I kind of forgot about that, but I think that's one of the very early hands-on experiencesI had as a very young person.
My mother was always interested in art and architecture, and my father was a carpenter,among other things.
(02:02):
And so I was always influenced by different types of creativity, vocational and fine art.
And then moving to Miami, those were my kind of youthful formative years as a teenager.
I guess exposed to that different metropolitan area is slightly, or at least in theeighties and nineties, it was more cosmopolitan than the Albuquerque, New Mexico that I
(02:26):
remember.
Just a different flavor in different ways.
Some things were the same, some things were different.
mean, in New Mexico, we grew up with uh Latino culture.
We grew up with uh Native American culture.
That was a huge influence in our schooling and that really stuck with me um as sort ofbeing connected and in Miami, it's Caribbean culture and more international influence.
(02:53):
But as a very young person, even in New Mexico in the 80s, hip hop was becoming massappreciated and it was in my house as a kid.
We listened to hip hop.
My earliest memories of music are hip hop, funk and soul are, and I think that's my
my kind of real influence and introduction to artists through music.
It's because I think it's really accessible and, you know, it was something that was inthe house all the time.
(03:17):
Growing up through the years, that sort of flow of music in and out of the house issomething that really inspired me and influenced me.
I feel the same way when I was growing up, there was always music in our house.
I grew up in the Caribbean, so we listened to a lot of music from the Caribbean.
And I'm wondering for you, was the last song that you heard that really brought you backto those days where you're like, oh, this song brings me back.
(03:44):
Can you, do you remember?
Yeah, it's a trip.
use SoundCloud as a platform to get music.
I think it's lot more open source based.
But I came across a Cool Mo D record from, I don't know, probably 89 or something.
And it's called I Go To Work.
And it's just like, it's a crazy up-tempo beat and the lyricism is just on point and itreferences lots of 5 % imagery in different ways that are not so apparent.
(04:15):
But I remember as a kid being really interested in Cool Mo D as a rapper, which is weirdfor like a five-year-old to be bumping to Cool Mo D because it was a pretty serious, I
mean, it serious rap.
Like there was some party rap, but he was a really serious rapper.
Wrapped about mathematics and supreme ideology.
And when I was started, I actually, my daughter, I have a daughter who's five years oldand it sort of cropped up in my stream.
(04:44):
when she was about two.
So it was this interesting full circle, because I started bumping it for her and realizingthat I knew more about this music than I thought I did when I was a kid.
Does that make sense?
um
When we're driving around, I always like to use that as a time to indoctrinate my son into80s and 90s hip hop.
(05:11):
And so it's gotten to the point where I've told my little guy, was like, hey, can you kickit?
And of course he responded in kind.
Yes, I can.
Not exactly the lyrics, but it's nice to know that you can, even when they're this young,you could try to like.
share some of the same, um I guess, that feeling that you had and probably I had as wellwhen you're surrounded by music.
(05:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good foundation.
Like the word indoctrination is powerful.
And I think it's about building a good foundation for appreciation.
So you left Miami and went to school for art at SVA.
Can you talk to us about how that came about?
(06:01):
Well, so just to clarify, I went from high school, I went to Alfred University, which isWestern New York.
uh in the summers, living in Miami during the summers, they get very hot, as you know,both climate wise and social wise, uh let's say.
And my family was very involved in my upbringing and they supported me a lot in lots ofdifferent ways at all times when I needed it.
(06:30):
Um, and so in the summers in high school, I would, I would leave Miami and go to Vermontwhere I have an uncle who ran a small bakery and he was friends with a blacksmith.
And, uh, I got a job with the blacksmith working, making production metalwork items forthe blacksmith and washing dishes at night at my uncle's cafe.
(06:51):
so graduating from high school as a young person, you know, often, or at least I was, andI know.
A lot of people I knew were confused about what the future could hold and the sort ofprescribed tracks for people moving forward, desk jobs, uh corporate America, didn't
(07:12):
really interest me.
Again, I'd been growing up in the hip hop culture since I was five.
So the fact that I was going to probably go into a regular nine to five wasn't reallygoing to play out, I don't think, for me.
And I found that I was, you I could work with my hands.
I was interested in that labor process, focusing on materials and just uh being indifferent environment.
(07:35):
And so through experience, I met some people who were students at Alfred University inVermont, my older cousin's friends.
And so to my mother's great delight, I decided that art school would be a good compromise.
She wanted me to go to university.
So this would be a good place for me to go work with my hands, be like,
(07:57):
you know, learning adjacent in terms of traditional liberal arts schooling.
And that's how I got there.
And I learned about materials there.
I learned about fine art there, how to think in the fine arts way and how to apply yourmaterials in the same way.
I think in our notes, I have it listed that you attended SVA.
(08:19):
Is that correct?
I went to SVA as a master's student.
so, okay, so I graduated from Alford University in 2003 and through lots of differenttributaries, I ended up in Brooklyn, New York.
And after I finished undergraduate, I did some traveling and some apprenticeships as aglassmaker in the US and abroad.
(08:42):
And I ended up in New York in Brooklyn about 2005.
And then in 2009, I went to SVA, the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan to get a master'sdegree in fine art.
Well, I think we have to roll that back, Leo.
I need to know.
I'm like just so curious.
How did glassblowing come in?
Because you talked about um working with your uncle who's a goldsmith.
(09:08):
And where did you get that interest in glassblowing?
So I went to undergrad for fine art and with metalworking experience.
Alfred is a SUNY Ceramics College and State University of New York Ceramics College with100, by the time I got there 20 plus years ago, they had 100 years of ceramic art and
(09:33):
probably roughly 30 plus years of glass art education.
So.
Just by being a student, was introduced to different studio methods as an undergraduate.
I started working in neon, bending glass tubes and illuminating them, which was aninteresting way for me to translate hip hop art and graffiti art.
I wasn't the first to do it, but I came to it on my own volition.
(09:55):
And another studio that they had there was a glass-blown studio with a furnace.
And I became fascinated with the material because it's a molten glob manipulated withother tools.
It's the temperature.
makes it so that you can't touch it with your hands.
In the same way that hot metal and blacksmithing is constructed, you use other tools tomanipulate the material.
(10:17):
Glass blowing is similar, but its viscosity makes it susceptible to gravity.
So it's like honey, it wants to hit the floor.
And to see somebody do something as simple as blow a tumbler or a drinking glass wasmind-blowing.
And I realized that...
At that point, we all take glass as a material kind of for granted.
(10:38):
It's this transparent material that's used architecturally.
It holds buildings up.
It allows us to see in or out and protects us from elements as well as uh otherutilitarian uses for, like I said, drinking vessels and other decorative uses.
But I was really enthralled by that process, molting glass, which when it's hot, gives offlight.
(11:02):
It's so hot, it's an illuminated material.
So you're working with them with a lit material, inflating it with your own breath andthen manipulating it to become your wildest dreams.
So I was really drawn to that material.
I experimented a little bit as an undergraduate.
And when I finished school, I sort of made it a mission to get involved as a glassblower.
(11:23):
I became a studio assistant in Southern New Jersey at Wheaton Village, now Wheaton Artsand Cultural Center, which was a living museum.
And I became a
a studio assistant for the glassblowers at the museum and the visiting artists whoparticipated in fellowships there.
So I worked with studio glass artists doing fine art sculptural work, and I worked withmuseum glassblowers making traditional American blown glass items.
(11:51):
So I got this dual track of sculpture glass and production utilitarian glass.
And from there, I was invited to work in Sweden
with a husband and wife studio art team outside of Stockholm.
And so I worked with them for six months as a studio assistant, learning traditionalSwedish glass processes.
(12:14):
And from there, I came to Brooklyn in 2005 with the intention of substituting a two-weekcourse and have been there ever since.
How does traditional Swedish glassblowing differ from what you were learning when you wereassisting in the U.S.?
(12:34):
It actually doesn't differ that much.
Interestingly enough, I came to find out later the glass studio I was working at in SouthJersey was part of a larger historical context of American factory glass, which had
recruited numbers of Swedish factory glass blowers in the 17 and 1800s.
So there's a really close correlation stylistically.
(12:56):
And so it wasn't a huge leap for me from one spot to the other.
this point, I'd love to talk about your creative process and as you started creating yourown pieces, can you walk us through how you created those pieces from ideation to the
final product?
(13:17):
That's an interesting journey.
have always worked sort of simultaneously between technical learning and like you say,this application of creative process and one, they both inform each other in different
ways.
So I have ideas for glass and then I don't necessarily have the skillset to create them.
(13:38):
So then I learn technical processes and apply those to my creative thought.
So there's this.
kind of like hills and valleys to my methodology where I'm learning new techniques andapplying them to my aesthetic.
And then I'm investigating my aesthetic and trying to figure out which techniques willwork for that.
(14:03):
So if, as you look at my work through time, you can see that there's this sort oftrajectory of object scale design.
You can see that initially,
A lot of my work sort of revolves around some of these historical traditional processes,uh like the graal technique, which is a Swedish technique of overlaying different colors
(14:26):
to create patterns that you then cut through different colors, make different contrastingcompositions, and then you sort of encase that in glass and freeze that imagery.
And so that was a way for me to add in like graffiti styles and different
visual components into a technique that um is sort of like, I mean, it's literally trappedin the glass, but it's also trapped in that kind of technique.
(14:55):
And then later on, you can see that as my skills progress, my sculpting technique isgetting closer to what I want to see these visual aesthetics flesh out as.
um So in the one hand, earlier on, there are techniques that exist that I can insert my
ideas into and later on I have ideas that I now need to kind of come up with techniques torealize.
(15:22):
And that's what's interesting about Glass is that it's got 2,000 years of technicalhistory but it's still kind of wide open in terms of inventing new forms and new ways to
think about the material.
I'd love to hear you talk more about finding your creative voice, Leo, because you justmentioned earlier that there currently is a gap sometimes between where you want to go and
(15:50):
where your current skills are.
And as you're going through years upon years of creating, what are you trying to achieveand what is your creative voice?
That's a hard question.
I, on the one hand, am very interested in pursuing the material of a glass.
(16:11):
On the one hand, I'm very interested in investigating the material of glass from amaterial study standpoint, as well as perpetuating the tradition and the techniques of
glass blowing.
I like the fact that I'm part of a 2000 year history of material manipulation.
But on the other hand, I'm not satisfied enough with that as a uh
(16:32):
creative output.
glass blowers, many artisans who work in different fields of craft are satisfied withpursuing the sort of tropes of those materials, whether it's ceramics, glass, metalwork.
I feel like the hip-hop methodology that I use requires more investigation beyond that.
(16:54):
um And so that is my creative driving force.
The hip-hop methodology of approaching a system that is
exists and is in place and remixing, manipulating, reorganizing, and reconsidering thosetraditions for contemporary output that resonates with people and specifically with the
(17:17):
youth and youth culture, I think, is very important.
So creative process is about connecting those two interests.
It's deeper than just like listening to rap and
blowing glass in the studio, finding out how those two things connect.
It involves lots of travel, involves other cultural investigations and aesthetic outputsthat I can layer into my work.
(17:41):
That first trip to Sweden in 2004 was a very eye-opening experience.
And since then, I've pursued travel as a way to educate myself.
find learning about world cultures
to be a very positive influence on my work.
And I try to express that through my work.
(18:04):
And the layering is not quite one on top of the other, it's this mesh that folds and foldsagain and has through pathways and circular pathways and blind pathways, I think, that are
important to having a successful but really more um
(18:27):
The word I'm looking for is enriching, an enriching kind of experience.
That's a wonderful answer.
I've never asked anyone that question before, Leo, so thank you for being like, anyway,but it's certainly it's a hard question, isn't it?
Because I don't know, I even now I don't quite know what I'm trying to say or do to mywork.
(18:51):
I think I know.
But with each project that I do, particularly if it's personal work, it's once the work iscompleted or
as I'm doing the work or as I'm retouching it or as I'm looking at the body of the workthat I've created, it's at that point that I start to understand what I'm trying to say.
(19:13):
And sometimes it's even years later that I'm like, that's what I was really looking for.
I guess it's wonderful for those who know straight away what they're trying to say and whythey're saying it, but it does sound like in some way what you're doing is glass weaving.
because there's so much that's embedded in what it is that you're doing and such thatthere are color that peeks through and so on, uh that it's an ongoing process for sure.
(19:44):
Yeah, I mean, it's the cliche is that it's, you know, the trip is the journey, not thedestination.
um But in lots of ways, that's really what it's about.
Sometimes I could really care less about the final output.
It becomes proof of that journey, I guess, to a certain extent.
And I I appreciate finished work, my finished work for those points that it embodies and.
(20:12):
I mean, as far as creative process grows, it's rare that I'll sketch out something that'sgoing to be a finished piece.
I work a little bit iteratively.
Like I said, it's about investigation.
And so I end up with a kind of a library of things that then get compiled later based onhow they interact with each other or what I'm thinking about at the time when it's time to
(20:39):
coalesce those.
those objects, but it's rare that I've got a drawing that I hold up that looks like thework on the wall.
And so like that has its ups and downs.
know, like I sometimes I'm envious of the people who are like drawing shop done becauseyeah, but at the end of the day, I'm way more fulfilled because I, it just means that I'm
(21:01):
not finished.
um There, there is finished work and there are things that, that
very, very recently, you know, some successes with museum acquisitions and things likethat.
Those will be what they are and they will exist like that, hopefully forever.
But a lot of my work gets revisited and recycled into itself because my experience,because I've traveled more, I've read something new, I've learned another technique.
(21:27):
um And so I just go back and I'm like, wait, now I know, now I know what I should do withthis.
Boom.
And then I redress it.
So in looking at your website, Leo, you're doing both glass blowing, you're also workingwith neon, right?
um You are doing graffiti, and then you're also doing ceramics.
(21:52):
I would love to have you chat a little bit about how graffiti really is woven through allof the work that you do.
um
When did that start?
Did that start way at the beginning or did you, this is something you discovered as youthrough the middle?
I mean, just to clarify, think what you're looking at is probably also glass.
(22:17):
I don't work in ceramic whatsoever, um but you're probably looking at some enameled.
You're looking at the flat wall pieces.
Yeah, that's um silkscreen enamel work, which is also glass.
Wow, I didn't, I couldn't tell.
Oh wow, that's incredible then.
(22:38):
um So the question is about graffiti and how you've woven it through your work.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, as a young person in the 80s and 90s, I was drawn to graffiti as a material.
Every young person I knew was interested in it.
I knew many graffiti writers who were very serious about it as a youth.
(23:02):
I wouldn't say I was extremely serious about being a writer in the streets.
I did partake in that as a practice, but I was really drawn to it as a
as an aesthetic component of a public space.
And what I mostly was drawn to, I think, in hindsight was the linear quality of graffiti.
(23:26):
It's a very singular line flow.
There isn't really, I mean, there's no erasing.
There's no do-overs.
There's a lot of confidence in line work of graffiti art.
spray paint is an unforgiving material.
It goes down, it's down.
And I think early on it became a huge, I mean, it was always a part of my work.
(23:50):
uh When I worked as a blacksmith, or when I worked for a blacksmith as a 15 year old, atlunch, I would wolf down my lunch and the shop owner would let me go in and mess around
with tools.
And I immediately started working in the same way, trying to make graffiti out of metal.
And...
(24:10):
When I got to art school as an undergraduate, it became the sole focus of how I expressedmy material studies, working with wood, working in ceramics, working with metal and also
with neon.
And it became a fountain of inspiration to be able to think about materials from thataesthetic standpoint.
(24:34):
As an art student, your art teachers are really forcing you to
figure out where your inspiration comes from.
How do you manifest your ideas?
Or who do you look up to to figure out, know, what artists are you interested in and howdo they manifest their ideas?
And so, you know, we were sent to the library, you know, look up this person, look at thatperson.
(24:56):
I was always, I skipped a library because I went to my CV collection and my black bookcollection and my, you know, subway art and, you know, wild style videos.
That's where I went to get my inspiration to investigate fine art.
(25:16):
So it's always been there for me.
It really does go back to those days of listening to music when you were younger.
Well, Leo, as our time draws to a close, my last question for you is, beyond your work asa glass artist, what are some of your hobbies or passions that you enjoy off the clock?
(25:39):
Sorry, I'm laughing.
It's like I blow glass and I make dinner for my kid, that's it.
But those are my passions.
But truly off the clock, I spend a lot of time thinking about my work and I am also tryingto figure out how to get back into traveling for those experiences and that inspiration
that I think is crucial to how I form my creativity.
(26:05):
And so in...
In the downtime, I'm trying to read about history.
I'm reading about Islamic art in artifacts and sacred geometry.
I'm reading about Hebrew language and the history of Hebrew language.
I'm reading about Arabic calligraphy.
What else am I reading about?
I just finished Can't Stop Won't Stop, which is an amazing sort of dissertation on the hiphop generation written by a journalist, which covers
(26:34):
hip hop since its inception and talks about how hip hop was a social motivating factor.
Yeah, I'm just trying to wolf down knowledge.
You know, in my off time, I'm just trying to learn more.
And having a child, I think is a great way to like sort of re-experience and relearnthings and get refreshed through new eyes about learning.
(27:00):
Everything is about the pursuit of knowledge and knowledge itself.
and is a way for me to do that.
So it's another way of folding in things so that I can be, so that can possess as muchknowledge as I can.
Thank so much for joining us, Leo.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
(27:23):
there.
I have
favorite to ask you before you go.
If you're loving this show, would you mind taking a quick second to leave us a five-starreview on your favorite go-to podcast app?
Here's the thing.
Those reviews are like magic fairy dust.
They help other creatives of color discover our show and tap into their own artisticsuperpowers.
(27:48):
While you're at it, why not subscribe to our sub-stack newsletter, Creative Matters?
matters is like a weekly dose of inspiration delivered straight to your inbox.
You can find the link to subscribe in the show notes.
All right, that's all that I have for you today.
(28:09):
I can't wait to see you on the next episode.
Bye.
Yo, this is Leo Tukoski and this is how I create.
Welcome to This is How We Create, a show that digs deeper into the creative life ofcontemporary artists of color.
Discover what feeds their creativity and how they've found or are finding their artisticvoice.
Through these intimate and candid conversations, you'll gain insights into the lives ofcreative professionals of color that are hard to find anywhere else.
(00:27):
Welcome back to This is How We Create.
On this episode, we welcome Leo Tokoski to the show.
Hey Leo.
Leo, start, could you please tell us a little bit about yourself and the creative workthat you do?
Absolutely.
I'm a glassblower and glass artist.
I make sculpture and installation using blown glass.
(00:52):
Leo, could you share with us your childhood memories and what it was like to grow up?
So from what I understand, you grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and then you moved toFlorida.
Can you talk to us about your early childhood and any exposures to art that youexperienced along the way?
(01:14):
I was born in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
I lived there till I was about 10 with my family.
And actually some of my earliest memories of creating were that one of our neighbors was agoldsmith.
And I remember my mother taking me over to his studio in his house to see how he madejewelry.
(01:36):
And after a while, I remember the Smith would let me use some of his tools and hammer onsome metal.
And that was something that I came up in my memory recently.
I kind of forgot about that, but I think that's one of the very early hands-on experiencesI had as a very young person.
My mother was always interested in art and architecture, and my father was a carpenter,among other things.
(02:02):
And so I was always influenced by different types of creativity, vocational and fine art.
And then moving to Miami, those were my kind of youthful formative years as a teenager.
I guess exposed to that different metropolitan area is slightly, or at least in theeighties and nineties, it was more cosmopolitan than the Albuquerque, New Mexico that I
(02:26):
remember.
Just a different flavor in different ways.
Some things were the same, some things were different.
mean, in New Mexico, we grew up with uh Latino culture.
We grew up with uh Native American culture.
That was a huge influence in our schooling and that really stuck with me um as sort ofbeing connected and in Miami, it's Caribbean culture and more international influence.
(02:53):
But as a very young person, even in New Mexico in the 80s, hip hop was becoming massappreciated and it was in my house as a kid.
We listened to hip hop.
My earliest memories of music are hip hop, funk and soul are, and I think that's my
my kind of real influence and introduction to artists through music.
It's because I think it's really accessible and, you know, it was something that was inthe house all the time.
(03:17):
Growing up through the years, that sort of flow of music in and out of the house issomething that really inspired me and influenced me.
I feel the same way when I was growing up, there was always music in our house.
I grew up in the Caribbean, so we listened to a lot of music from the Caribbean.
And I'm wondering for you, was the last song that you heard that really brought you backto those days where you're like, oh, this song brings me back.
(03:44):
Can you, do you remember?
Yeah, it's a trip.
use SoundCloud as a platform to get music.
I think it's lot more open source based.
But I came across a Cool Mo D record from, I don't know, probably 89 or something.
And it's called I Go To Work.
And it's just like, it's a crazy up-tempo beat and the lyricism is just on point and itreferences lots of 5 % imagery in different ways that are not so apparent.
(04:15):
But I remember as a kid being really interested in Cool Mo D as a rapper, which is weirdfor like a five-year-old to be bumping to Cool Mo D because it was a pretty serious, I
mean, it serious rap.
Like there was some party rap, but he was a really serious rapper.
Wrapped about mathematics and supreme ideology.
And when I was started, I actually, my daughter, I have a daughter who's five years oldand it sort of cropped up in my stream.
(04:44):
when she was about two.
So it was this interesting full circle, because I started bumping it for her and realizingthat I knew more about this music than I thought I did when I was a kid.
Does that make sense?
um
When we're driving around, I always like to use that as a time to indoctrinate my son into80s and 90s hip hop.
(05:11):
And so it's gotten to the point where I've told my little guy, was like, hey, can you kickit?
And of course he responded in kind.
Yes, I can.
Not exactly the lyrics, but it's nice to know that you can, even when they're this young,you could try to like.
share some of the same, um I guess, that feeling that you had and probably I had as wellwhen you're surrounded by music.
(05:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good foundation.
Like the word indoctrination is powerful.
And I think it's about building a good foundation for appreciation.
So you left Miami and went to school for art at SVA.
Can you talk to us about how that came about?
(06:01):
Well, so just to clarify, I went from high school, I went to Alfred University, which isWestern New York.
uh in the summers, living in Miami during the summers, they get very hot, as you know,both climate wise and social wise, uh let's say.
And my family was very involved in my upbringing and they supported me a lot in lots ofdifferent ways at all times when I needed it.
(06:30):
Um, and so in the summers in high school, I would, I would leave Miami and go to Vermontwhere I have an uncle who ran a small bakery and he was friends with a blacksmith.
And, uh, I got a job with the blacksmith working, making production metalwork items forthe blacksmith and washing dishes at night at my uncle's cafe.
(06:51):
so graduating from high school as a young person, you know, often, or at least I was, andI know.
A lot of people I knew were confused about what the future could hold and the sort ofprescribed tracks for people moving forward, desk jobs, uh corporate America, didn't
(07:12):
really interest me.
Again, I'd been growing up in the hip hop culture since I was five.
So the fact that I was going to probably go into a regular nine to five wasn't reallygoing to play out, I don't think, for me.
And I found that I was, you I could work with my hands.
I was interested in that labor process, focusing on materials and just uh being indifferent environment.
(07:35):
And so through experience, I met some people who were students at Alfred University inVermont, my older cousin's friends.
And so to my mother's great delight, I decided that art school would be a good compromise.
She wanted me to go to university.
So this would be a good place for me to go work with my hands, be like,
(07:57):
you know, learning adjacent in terms of traditional liberal arts schooling.
And that's how I got there.
And I learned about materials there.
I learned about fine art there, how to think in the fine arts way and how to apply yourmaterials in the same way.
I think in our notes, I have it listed that you attended SVA.
(08:19):
Is that correct?
I went to SVA as a master's student.
so, okay, so I graduated from Alford University in 2003 and through lots of differenttributaries, I ended up in Brooklyn, New York.
And after I finished undergraduate, I did some traveling and some apprenticeships as aglassmaker in the US and abroad.
(08:42):
And I ended up in New York in Brooklyn about 2005.
And then in 2009, I went to SVA, the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan to get a master'sdegree in fine art.
Well, I think we have to roll that back, Leo.
I need to know.
I'm like just so curious.
How did glassblowing come in?
Because you talked about um working with your uncle who's a goldsmith.
(09:08):
And where did you get that interest in glassblowing?
So I went to undergrad for fine art and with metalworking experience.
Alfred is a SUNY Ceramics College and State University of New York Ceramics College with100, by the time I got there 20 plus years ago, they had 100 years of ceramic art and
(09:33):
probably roughly 30 plus years of glass art education.
So.
Just by being a student, was introduced to different studio methods as an undergraduate.
I started working in neon, bending glass tubes and illuminating them, which was aninteresting way for me to translate hip hop art and graffiti art.
I wasn't the first to do it, but I came to it on my own volition.
(09:55):
And another studio that they had there was a glass-blown studio with a furnace.
And I became fascinated with the material because it's a molten glob manipulated withother tools.
It's the temperature.
makes it so that you can't touch it with your hands.
In the same way that hot metal and blacksmithing is constructed, you use other tools tomanipulate the material.
(10:17):
Glass blowing is similar, but its viscosity makes it susceptible to gravity.
So it's like honey, it wants to hit the floor.
And to see somebody do something as simple as blow a tumbler or a drinking glass wasmind-blowing.
And I realized that...
At that point, we all take glass as a material kind of for granted.
(10:38):
It's this transparent material that's used architecturally.
It holds buildings up.
It allows us to see in or out and protects us from elements as well as uh otherutilitarian uses for, like I said, drinking vessels and other decorative uses.
But I was really enthralled by that process, molting glass, which when it's hot, gives offlight.
(11:02):
It's so hot, it's an illuminated material.
So you're working with them with a lit material, inflating it with your own breath andthen manipulating it to become your wildest dreams.
So I was really drawn to that material.
I experimented a little bit as an undergraduate.
And when I finished school, I sort of made it a mission to get involved as a glassblower.
(11:23):
I became a studio assistant in Southern New Jersey at Wheaton Village, now Wheaton Artsand Cultural Center, which was a living museum.
And I became a
a studio assistant for the glassblowers at the museum and the visiting artists whoparticipated in fellowships there.
So I worked with studio glass artists doing fine art sculptural work, and I worked withmuseum glassblowers making traditional American blown glass items.
(11:51):
So I got this dual track of sculpture glass and production utilitarian glass.
And from there, I was invited to work in Sweden
with a husband and wife studio art team outside of Stockholm.
And so I worked with them for six months as a studio assistant, learning traditionalSwedish glass processes.
(12:14):
And from there, I came to Brooklyn in 2005 with the intention of substituting a two-weekcourse and have been there ever since.
How does traditional Swedish glassblowing differ from what you were learning when you wereassisting in the U.S.?
(12:34):
It actually doesn't differ that much.
Interestingly enough, I came to find out later the glass studio I was working at in SouthJersey was part of a larger historical context of American factory glass, which had
recruited numbers of Swedish factory glass blowers in the 17 and 1800s.
So there's a really close correlation stylistically.
(12:56):
And so it wasn't a huge leap for me from one spot to the other.
this point, I'd love to talk about your creative process and as you started creating yourown pieces, can you walk us through how you created those pieces from ideation to the
final product?
(13:17):
That's an interesting journey.
have always worked sort of simultaneously between technical learning and like you say,this application of creative process and one, they both inform each other in different
ways.
So I have ideas for glass and then I don't necessarily have the skillset to create them.
(13:38):
So then I learn technical processes and apply those to my creative thought.
So there's this.
kind of like hills and valleys to my methodology where I'm learning new techniques andapplying them to my aesthetic.
And then I'm investigating my aesthetic and trying to figure out which techniques willwork for that.
(14:03):
So if, as you look at my work through time, you can see that there's this sort oftrajectory of object scale design.
You can see that initially,
A lot of my work sort of revolves around some of these historical traditional processes,uh like the graal technique, which is a Swedish technique of overlaying different colors
(14:26):
to create patterns that you then cut through different colors, make different contrastingcompositions, and then you sort of encase that in glass and freeze that imagery.
And so that was a way for me to add in like graffiti styles and different
visual components into a technique that um is sort of like, I mean, it's literally trappedin the glass, but it's also trapped in that kind of technique.
(14:55):
And then later on, you can see that as my skills progress, my sculpting technique isgetting closer to what I want to see these visual aesthetics flesh out as.
um So in the one hand, earlier on, there are techniques that exist that I can insert my
ideas into and later on I have ideas that I now need to kind of come up with techniques torealize.
(15:22):
And that's what's interesting about Glass is that it's got 2,000 years of technicalhistory but it's still kind of wide open in terms of inventing new forms and new ways to
think about the material.
I'd love to hear you talk more about finding your creative voice, Leo, because you justmentioned earlier that there currently is a gap sometimes between where you want to go and
(15:50):
where your current skills are.
And as you're going through years upon years of creating, what are you trying to achieveand what is your creative voice?
That's a hard question.
I, on the one hand, am very interested in pursuing the material of a glass.
(16:11):
On the one hand, I'm very interested in investigating the material of glass from amaterial study standpoint, as well as perpetuating the tradition and the techniques of
glass blowing.
I like the fact that I'm part of a 2000 year history of material manipulation.
But on the other hand, I'm not satisfied enough with that as a uh
(16:32):
creative output.
glass blowers, many artisans who work in different fields of craft are satisfied withpursuing the sort of tropes of those materials, whether it's ceramics, glass, metalwork.
I feel like the hip-hop methodology that I use requires more investigation beyond that.
(16:54):
um And so that is my creative driving force.
The hip-hop methodology of approaching a system that is
exists and is in place and remixing, manipulating, reorganizing, and reconsidering thosetraditions for contemporary output that resonates with people and specifically with the
(17:17):
youth and youth culture, I think, is very important.
So creative process is about connecting those two interests.
It's deeper than just like listening to rap and
blowing glass in the studio, finding out how those two things connect.
It involves lots of travel, involves other cultural investigations and aesthetic outputsthat I can layer into my work.
(17:41):
That first trip to Sweden in 2004 was a very eye-opening experience.
And since then, I've pursued travel as a way to educate myself.
find learning about world cultures
to be a very positive influence on my work.
And I try to express that through my work.
(18:04):
And the layering is not quite one on top of the other, it's this mesh that folds and foldsagain and has through pathways and circular pathways and blind pathways, I think, that are
important to having a successful but really more um
(18:27):
The word I'm looking for is enriching, an enriching kind of experience.
That's a wonderful answer.
I've never asked anyone that question before, Leo, so thank you for being like, anyway,but it's certainly it's a hard question, isn't it?
Because I don't know, I even now I don't quite know what I'm trying to say or do to mywork.
(18:51):
I think I know.
But with each project that I do, particularly if it's personal work, it's once the work iscompleted or
as I'm doing the work or as I'm retouching it or as I'm looking at the body of the workthat I've created, it's at that point that I start to understand what I'm trying to say.
(19:13):
And sometimes it's even years later that I'm like, that's what I was really looking for.
I guess it's wonderful for those who know straight away what they're trying to say and whythey're saying it, but it does sound like in some way what you're doing is glass weaving.
because there's so much that's embedded in what it is that you're doing and such thatthere are color that peeks through and so on, uh that it's an ongoing process for sure.
(19:44):
Yeah, I mean, it's the cliche is that it's, you know, the trip is the journey, not thedestination.
um But in lots of ways, that's really what it's about.
Sometimes I could really care less about the final output.
It becomes proof of that journey, I guess, to a certain extent.
And I I appreciate finished work, my finished work for those points that it embodies and.
(20:12):
I mean, as far as creative process grows, it's rare that I'll sketch out something that'sgoing to be a finished piece.
I work a little bit iteratively.
Like I said, it's about investigation.
And so I end up with a kind of a library of things that then get compiled later based onhow they interact with each other or what I'm thinking about at the time when it's time to
(20:39):
coalesce those.
those objects, but it's rare that I've got a drawing that I hold up that looks like thework on the wall.
And so like that has its ups and downs.
know, like I sometimes I'm envious of the people who are like drawing shop done becauseyeah, but at the end of the day, I'm way more fulfilled because I, it just means that I'm
(21:01):
not finished.
um There, there is finished work and there are things that, that
very, very recently, you know, some successes with museum acquisitions and things likethat.
Those will be what they are and they will exist like that, hopefully forever.
But a lot of my work gets revisited and recycled into itself because my experience,because I've traveled more, I've read something new, I've learned another technique.
(21:27):
um And so I just go back and I'm like, wait, now I know, now I know what I should do withthis.
Boom.
And then I redress it.
So in looking at your website, Leo, you're doing both glass blowing, you're also workingwith neon, right?
um You are doing graffiti, and then you're also doing ceramics.
(21:52):
I would love to have you chat a little bit about how graffiti really is woven through allof the work that you do.
um
When did that start?
Did that start way at the beginning or did you, this is something you discovered as youthrough the middle?
I mean, just to clarify, think what you're looking at is probably also glass.
(22:17):
I don't work in ceramic whatsoever, um but you're probably looking at some enameled.
You're looking at the flat wall pieces.
Yeah, that's um silkscreen enamel work, which is also glass.
Wow, I didn't, I couldn't tell.
Oh wow, that's incredible then.
(22:38):
um So the question is about graffiti and how you've woven it through your work.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, as a young person in the 80s and 90s, I was drawn to graffiti as a material.
Every young person I knew was interested in it.
I knew many graffiti writers who were very serious about it as a youth.
(23:02):
I wouldn't say I was extremely serious about being a writer in the streets.
I did partake in that as a practice, but I was really drawn to it as a
as an aesthetic component of a public space.
And what I mostly was drawn to, I think, in hindsight was the linear quality of graffiti.
(23:26):
It's a very singular line flow.
There isn't really, I mean, there's no erasing.
There's no do-overs.
There's a lot of confidence in line work of graffiti art.
spray paint is an unforgiving material.
It goes down, it's down.
And I think early on it became a huge, I mean, it was always a part of my work.
(23:50):
uh When I worked as a blacksmith, or when I worked for a blacksmith as a 15 year old, atlunch, I would wolf down my lunch and the shop owner would let me go in and mess around
with tools.
And I immediately started working in the same way, trying to make graffiti out of metal.
And...
(24:10):
When I got to art school as an undergraduate, it became the sole focus of how I expressedmy material studies, working with wood, working in ceramics, working with metal and also
with neon.
And it became a fountain of inspiration to be able to think about materials from thataesthetic standpoint.
(24:34):
As an art student, your art teachers are really forcing you to
figure out where your inspiration comes from.
How do you manifest your ideas?
Or who do you look up to to figure out, know, what artists are you interested in and howdo they manifest their ideas?
And so, you know, we were sent to the library, you know, look up this person, look at thatperson.
(24:56):
I was always, I skipped a library because I went to my CV collection and my black bookcollection and my, you know, subway art and, you know, wild style videos.
That's where I went to get my inspiration to investigate fine art.
(25:16):
So it's always been there for me.
It really does go back to those days of listening to music when you were younger.
Well, Leo, as our time draws to a close, my last question for you is, beyond your work asa glass artist, what are some of your hobbies or passions that you enjoy off the clock?
(25:39):
Sorry, I'm laughing.
It's like I blow glass and I make dinner for my kid, that's it.
But those are my passions.
But truly off the clock, I spend a lot of time thinking about my work and I am also tryingto figure out how to get back into traveling for those experiences and that inspiration
that I think is crucial to how I form my creativity.
(26:05):
And so in...
In the downtime, I'm trying to read about history.
I'm reading about Islamic art in artifacts and sacred geometry.
I'm reading about Hebrew language and the history of Hebrew language.
I'm reading about Arabic calligraphy.
What else am I reading about?
I just finished Can't Stop Won't Stop, which is an amazing sort of dissertation on the hiphop generation written by a journalist, which covers
(26:34):
hip hop since its inception and talks about how hip hop was a social motivating factor.
Yeah, I'm just trying to wolf down knowledge.
You know, in my off time, I'm just trying to learn more.
And having a child, I think is a great way to like sort of re-experience and relearnthings and get refreshed through new eyes about learning.
(27:00):
Everything is about the pursuit of knowledge and knowledge itself.
and is a way for me to do that.
So it's another way of folding in things so that I can be, so that can possess as muchknowledge as I can.
Thank so much for joining us, Leo.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
(27:23):
there.
I have
favorite to ask you before you go.
If you're loving this show, would you mind taking a quick second to leave us a five-starreview on your favorite go-to podcast app?
Here's the thing.
Those reviews are like magic fairy dust.
They help other creatives of color discover our show and tap into their own artisticsuperpowers.
(27:48):
While you're at it, why not subscribe to our sub-stack newsletter, Creative Matters?
matters is like a weekly dose of inspiration delivered straight to your inbox.
You can find the link to subscribe in the show notes.
All right, that's all that I have for you today.
(28:09):
I can't wait to see you on the next episode.
Bye.
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