July 11, 2025 • 49 mins
How do we build a world that truly reflects who we are? In this profound conversation, I sit down with architect and design tastemaker Obiora Nwazota, a powerful voice reshaping our understanding of culture, identity, and design. Obi shares his journey from a childhood in Nigeria, dreaming beyond the prescribed path, to becoming a cultural force in Chicago.
We explore how he challenges the singular narrative of design by asking a simple yet powerful question: If someone walked into your home, would they know an Igbo person lives there? This question opens up a deep dialogue about the importance of ritual, the stories our spaces tell, and the critical mission of his venture, Okpara House, to reclaim and elevate Igbo cultural assets for contemporary life. This episode is a call to all creatives to look deeper into our own heritage and harness our gifts to build a richer, more inclusive world.
Chapters
00:00 - Introduction to Obiora 'Obi' Nwazota
02:50 - Growing Up Igbo: A Childhood of Daydreams
05:05 - The Surprising Link Between Igbo Culture and Haiti
09:12 - Finding Freedom Through Architecture in a New Land
14:42 - Redefining Architecture as the Architecture of Life
20:12 - The Genesis of Okpara House: Filling the Cultural Void
29:59 - The Power of Rituals in Defining Who We Are
34:16 - Reclaiming the African Image: The Story Behind the Book 'Nkemdiche'
44:53 - The Collaborative Process of Creating a Visual Narrative
48:00 - A Final Word on Being a Light for Culture
Connect with Obi:
Follow Obi on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/obiora_nwazota/?hl=en
Obi’s Website: https://www.okparahouse.com/about
Support the Show
Website: www.martineseverin.com
Follow on Instagram: @martine.severin | @thisishowwecreate_
Subscribe to the Newsletter: www.martineseverin.substack.com
This is How We Create is produced by Martine Severin. This episode was edited by Santiago Cardona and Daniel Espinosa.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everyone, this is Obi-Wara Moazota and this is how I create.
Welcome to This is How We Create, a show that digs deeper into the creative life ofcontemporary artists of color.
Discover what feeds their creativity and how they've found or are finding their artisticvoice.
Through these intimate and candid conversations, you'll gain insights into the lives ofcreative professionals of color that are hard to find anywhere else.
(00:30):
Welcome back to This is How We Create.
I'm your host, Martine Saverin.
I'm excited to welcome architect and design tastemaker, Obi Yara Nwazota to the show.
Obi moved to the US from Nigeria to study architecture.
Upon his graduation from architecture school, he went on to work at the most innovativedesign firms in Chicago.
(00:56):
From there, he would found his own firm, Ona Formation,
where he created several acclaimed projects influencing various scenes and culturesthroughout Chicago before becoming the owner of the Orange Skin showroom and Monodie
Chicago Mono Brand showroom.
(01:18):
In 2020, Obie launched Aquara House, whose mission is to harness the power of good designand dialogue and academic research
as powerful agents to stimulate, reactivate, elevate, and reimagine Igbo culture.
Through Okpara House, he reclaims and asserts Igbo cultures relevance to contemporarylifestyles within and beyond the Igbo community.
(01:47):
In 2021, Okpara House Publishing released their first book, Nkemdiche, Why Do We Not GrowBeards?
Which is an all ages,
illustrated storybook that is simply fantastic.
You have to check it out.
During our conversation with Opie, we will discuss how he came to architecture and designand how growing up Igbo influences and influenced everything he does.
(02:15):
We talk about what culture means and what it means to be of African descent in thesemodern times and how to think about imbuing rituals in our everyday routines.
We close the discussion with the story of how he came to write his book and Camdiche, WhyDo We Not Grow Beards?
(02:35):
Alright, let's go ahead and start the show.
Enjoy!
Welcome, Obi!
thank you so much, my team.
So I know I called you Obi, but your name is Obiara, as everyone heard from the beginningof the show.
But you've called yourself Obi for short.
(02:55):
Before the show started, we talked about how important names are.
And you are originally from Nigeria.
Can you talk to us about what it was like for you being little Obiara growing up inNigeria?
Sure, was pretty shy, timid perhaps, but mostly I would say because uh I was ahead of myclass and so I was always with older kids.
(03:27):
You know, as boys, girls mature much faster than boys and so I would imagine that for me,uh being too young for my classmates was responsible for the way.
I tended to be maybe, I don't want to use the word an introvert, but like I was more adreamer, you know, where I could disappear in my little head and then allowed my moods to
(03:54):
let me travel.
So with your moods helping you to travel, how did those moods and your mind end uptraveling to an interest in architecture and design?
Well, for me, play was such an escape.
I was very much into building.
Every little boy would get toys, whether it was Legos and things like that.
(04:18):
You were always creating, you know, these other worlds.
And so I've always been fascinated by storytelling, not the physical world we lived in,but these other fairy tales by otherworldly adventures and things like that, because it
allowed me.
to, I always believed it was a place where rules were so fluid and you could create andcreate alternatives that were real in my head as opposed to what the adults, know, what
(04:48):
the strict conventions of real world pose, especially on a child.
So for me, I think ending up being creative was not.
gonna be wasn't a surprise for me, I should say.
Yeah, that's not a surprise that I ended up that way.
Specifically, where are you from in Nigeria?
(05:09):
I'm actually Igbo.
Yes, I grew up in the southeastern part of Nigeria, which actually has a huge link toHaiti, by the way.
Well, I would just say Igbo-lele.
Yeah, we have, Vodou is very much linked to our African roots.
(05:30):
I wouldn't, I mean, who's to say that my ancestors aren't Igbo?
No, no.
Well, your first rulers, I shouldn't say rulers, but the first Toussaint or whatever,can't remember his name in Haiti.
He's actually of Igbo ancestry.
The original revolution, the first black presidential...
(05:50):
Yes, yes, him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you actually do have a very strong Igbo, direct Igbo representation in Haiti.
And matter of fact,
You know, in the Biafran war, know, we had, we tried to see it from Nigeria in 1968,between 68 and 70.
And the first country to recognize the Igbo's was actually Haiti.
(06:11):
Igbo culture is basically the tapestry, in my opinion, of Haitian culture.
think it influences our music and influences our art, and I reckon it influences the foodthat we eat.
When you think back about that young boy, can you tell me a little bit about what he wouldthink about where you are now in your life?
(06:35):
um I think, in an interesting way, I'm sure he'll be impressed.
But at the same time, I think to go from where I was, far away in those little towns andtownships in Eberland, to me here in Chicago and doing what we're doing and influencing
(07:00):
culture, design, and people's lives.
I don't think it's something that would have been dreamt of.
Perhaps, maybe traditionally growing up, England was where was the go-to place of myparents' time and the time before.
So America was never really in the radar.
So it was never something that was even thought about.
(07:21):
Matter of fact, my dad would always think that this place was just a place, you know...
uh
filled with cowboys and unruly people and all whatnot, you know, but then again, that'sjust how story goes around the world.
I remember when I first came here, one of my classmates from Peru, when her family learnedthat she had gotten a scholarship to come to America, they were so excited until they
(07:44):
found out that she was in Chicago and they all freaked out, like, because they all thoughtAl Capone was still running around.
Yes, long, long, long time ago, you know, America was not even part of the radar.
But at the end, I think,
What would have been impressive for young OB is that I broke away from the normality andthe expectations of most of the children I grew up with, where everybody had to be, you
(08:13):
you're either a doctor, you're a lawyer, you're an engineer, and all these very strictformats of education.
you the arts was not something that was encouraged.
And matter of fact, that's part of why I daydreamed a lot as a kid, because those are thethings that were easily taken away from you, because I wanted to put structure and people
(08:37):
didn't know how to deal with a kid that wants a career in creativity.
It just wasn't safe.
And I think it's the same thing that continues until today.
Although today it's a bit more relaxed, people are a bit more appreciative of
or creative industries, but back then it just wasn't.
(08:57):
And so at first as a child, it was tolerated, but then at some point you have to now growup and start taking, you know, serious your studies and you're going to go become an
engineer or this and that and blah, blah, blah.
You know, my, my mind wasn't having any of that.
And so I think Young Obi see me today will be like, wow, you really did it.
(09:22):
Curious as to how you did it.
How were you able to convince your father who probably as you mentioned that Everyone wasgoing to England, but you ended up coming to Chicago How did you manage to convince them
to to allow you to?
Go across the to where Al Capone probably still reigns
(09:47):
I'll tell you something.
I grew up in a strict, strict home.
I mean, I, wasn't fun.
I, it was not fun at all.
I mean, this is how, how not fun it was.
Uh, most of my mates in boarding school hated going to any excuse.
(10:08):
mean, boarding school was fun, but any excuse to go home, they were on it.
For me, boarding school was my escape.
time to go home after boarding school was dread.
I dreaded it.
By the time I could, this was my means of running away.
Cause it worked out that my father never liked America, rarely came this way.
(10:31):
And so was like, where is the farthest place I can go that these guys would not come afterme and then I can go be myself.
And America happened to be it.
And the moment it was possible, I was gone.
And so
Coming here meant that I now could take control of my life and do what I learned andreally push myself to where I wanted to go without having to submit to higher forces and
(11:00):
so forth and so forth.
And I mean, there's so much more to it than this interview allows, but anyway, that'sgeneral gist of it.
I think you're right.
I don't think we have the time to speak about this part about you having an intrinsicunderstanding of who you are and how restrictive you might have felt.
(11:21):
putting words in your mouth.
um or not fun.
You said not fun.
How not fun.
you have be correct when you say not very restrictive.
Actually, believe me, that's mild.
I'm not saying that, I mean, I'm not talking about being abused.
That's not the, that's not the point.
It's not, I wasn't abused or any other stuff, but it's just people.
(11:41):
And remember I said at the beginning how like I went to school far too young for my class,for my proper age makes, you know, the difference between a nine year old boy and a 12
year old boy is like night and day.
as opposed to a 21-year-old boy and a 24-year-old person.
You understand?
The age is such a big difference.
(12:03):
People are expecting of you what someone at 12 is doing and you are nine.
you know, it's just, yeah, it's, Anyway, were also based on their expectations that werejust not correct.
Thank you for sharing that.
There's a huge difference psychologically and developmentally between nine and 12, I knowfor sure.
(12:26):
So you came to Chicago to study architecture.
Can you tell me a little bit about what that experience was like and how your approach toarchitecture and design has changed since you've been over here?
So I came here, yes, I came to study architecture.
(12:48):
My first semester, I didn't know my left from my right, because actually, in I transferredinto my second year.
So I actually missed out on the first year when people have been broken in and you'rebeing taught the basics and all that stuff.
And so I joined them in my second year without any of that stuff.
And I'm sure most of my classmates thought I might not even survive the next semester.
(13:13):
which truly was about to happen.
Somehow I discovered that there was more to architecture than architecture.
And that was the world of design.
And that's what I became smitten by.
I remember approaching one of my professors and I'm like, man, please, could you teach mehow to design?
(13:33):
And the guy looks at me and like, laughed.
And it's like, Orby, if I could teach you how to design, I won't be here talking to you.
be in my own private island, richer than God, you know.
I like, my goodness.
But then he actually gave me some pointers.
I ended up basically living in a library, soaking up everything that was to do aboutdesign and all that stuff.
(13:57):
So I literally taught myself to recognize and to understand what were the markers, whatwere the differences, what was what.
Of course, at first your copy and paste type of a thing, and then slowly
things start to align, they start to make sense and you start to discern those things.
And so for me, that was the beginning of realizing that there was more to architecturethan the discourse allows, you know, where you're almost kind of boxed in, you know,
(14:27):
within certain strict rules and things like that.
And for me, anything that gives me the feeling of being strict, automatically, I want tobreak out of that.
And that I think goes back to my childhood.
And so from the get-go,
The way I saw architecture was not necessarily the way a lot of my classmates did, know,where it's about brick and mortar, it's about philosophy and blah, blah, blah, and all
(14:52):
that stuff.
For me, was all about living, how we lived, you know, and architecture I saw ineverything.
And so it took a long time to get to where I am today in terms of being a person tomanifest those things.
Because to me, the training of architecture
You know, you go to school and you train for four years, five years, know, seven years.
(15:15):
It's not enough to, because architecture for me, you know, it's a combination of art andscience and it's probably one of the ultimate forms of creativity.
you can't, nothing in this school can teach you in five to seven years, you know.
You know, that's why I think even in that trade, even when you practice architecture as aformal endeavor, it takes years and years and years and years for you to start.
(15:40):
break out to start to really do stuff.
You know, I quickly found out that for me, it wasn't just in building actual buildings,but architecture for me was in, you know, it was beyond building, beating books, beating
products, objects, art, food, you name it.
That to me, it's architecture of life.
And that was what my interest became.
(16:05):
I fell in love with design, everything that has to do with design when I was in my, Ithink in my early 20s.
How I grew up with around a lot of immigrants where we were told you had to go into thesensible careers, lawyer um or medicine.
(16:26):
Yep.
Design never occurred to me and it's not until now that I realized that world and theworld I am now in as a photographer.
That's my world, that's my jam and I don't think I never realized that how it is, itunderguards everything that we do.
You know, when you think about design and you see a street sign or you're going down thehighway, it is the, just, it provides the structure.
(16:53):
to our lives and we don't think, we don't talk about that part of it.
really such a good point you're making because to me, at the end of the day, you could bea chemist, you could be a physician, you could be a lawyer or any of these other
professions.
What separates you from everybody else is actually if you understand that every field isactually a creative field.
(17:23):
You see, you could be a doctor and you're all about
you know, getting that amazing salary and then, you know, doing your shifts here, there,or you're like, how do I use the tools that have been taught to now expand, you know, the
minds of people to create and create new medicines, new ways of healing and all that.
(17:44):
That to me is where design comes in.
And you see that it's manifest in all these other things, but we tend to separate thesethings into, and partition them into different boxes.
In my opinion, nature does not work that way.
It's all interrelated.
And so you find out that design as a course, as a discourse, actually should be anunderlay on top of which all the other things should be built.
(18:10):
And if we had that, then I believe we should be a bit more closer to understanding the waynature, actually the natural world actually works.
And when you do look at how the world works and you think about the design that's in aleaf or the design that's on the scales of a fish, I mean, it's just, it's in everything.
(18:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
But I mean, that's another conversation that we could ah go into gladly.
This is a really great segue because I met you before.
I don't think you remember me.
I was at Minati.
So you are a tastemaker and everyone in Chicago knows your name because you're not onlythe owner of the Orange Skin showroom and Minati Chicago, you've even launched a
(19:04):
restaurant.
So I met you when I was doing a photo shoot with Patrick Chavez.
Yes.
remember you were styling or no, no, you did the photography or something.
I can't remember exactly, but yes.
my God.
And that's for the world.
you imagine?
Isn't that a small world?
(19:25):
I remember you talking about orange skin and how passionate you were about design andabout giving a voice to brown voices.
I think you since then went and you founded Okpara House.
You are creating content where the whole goal is to
(19:50):
encourage people to take responsibility to build a better and fairer society whereinclusion and equity is for everyone and is not just a privilege.
I would love for you to talk a little bit about that.
Okay, well, do you have a week?
(20:13):
Okay.
All right.
Well, since we're done, we'll find a way to speak and to keep it very short.
Well, essentially it's this.
We are, you know, the West pretty much deservedly or undeservedly or whatever, however youwant to argue the case.
That's really besides the point.
But at the end of the day, they are the overriding narrative that has actually pretty muchcondensed
(20:40):
every other composition into their narrative.
know, nothing could be farther from the truth.
The world is a multiracial, multiethnic experience.
Each of these ethnicities and races, you know, every other thing in between, is actuallythe richness that we are as humans.
(21:05):
You know,
Access to all these opinions, tastes, philosophy, ideas is part of what really makes uscomplete.
And so you find out that the entire education that runs the world of design and prettymuch every other, you know, most of the professions are all seen through a singular
(21:29):
perspective.
And it's all wonderful.
as long as, yes, you're doing that and you're working within it and not outside of it.
But then you wake up one day and you realize that there's more to this thing.
There's so much more to it than just this tiny sliver of uh reference.
(21:49):
And so you start to ask the questions.
And, you know, for me, the questions I started asking some years ago, you know, what's sodifficult is you can't just go off on a limb.
and be an army of one.
I mean, some people do that, but it just puts you, the challenges at a spectacularlyhumongous place that sometimes you end up being swallowed by the challenges that you don't
(22:16):
end up getting anything done.
But anyway, so here I am, I've been under the titillation of a particular point ofreference and I've worked within the confines of that reference point.
And then you wake up one day and you realize that you come from elsewhere.
And so it becomes a question of recognizing that there are all identities.
(22:38):
And so the question becomes, and who am I?
Where do I come from?
What do I represent?
And where am I going?
You start to realize that everything you've been prepared to be has been defined by theother.
and has nothing to do actually with whom you are.
(23:01):
You can continue or you could do something about it.
And so I chose to actually address these things.
Now, and I'm going to kind of jump in about a bit.
So along my exploration research and all whatnot, uh we woke up one day last year, it was2020.
(23:22):
and the pandemic came and then followed swiftly by the BLM movement.
And so the BLM movement was so powerful and important in the sense that it tore off allthe blinders that we had about the concerns of Black folks worldwide.
(23:43):
Questions were now made to confront questions that we either sidestepped or didn't evenrecognize was there.
And we just had to face these things face on.
And part of the things that I found so amazing was, the same time, it can be shocking, butit also depends on how you look at it.
(24:05):
know, they say the glass is either half full or half empty.
But in my perspective, what this thing did was it took this, it violently tore off thisveil on the
eyes of black folks to reveal, avoid this empty abyss where it should have been full ofour assets, our knowledge assets, our cultural assets, the things that identify us to what
(24:37):
it is to be African, whether you're paid to the mainland or you're paid to the diaspora, Imean, black African.
And so this emptiness
Actually, as frightening as it is to see this void, it also was amazing to know that, nowat least we know that this was something that should have been filled with something.
(25:02):
That thing it should be filled with is our, these are our assets, you the contents of ourlife.
And these things have to be built or rebuilt in this case, but rebuilding not by others,but this time around by us.
And hence part of what Opera House stands to do is to now create.
(25:24):
But this time around, I'm going back into my culture, Igbo culture, and taking our assets,knowledge assets, our cultural assets, and making them relevant again to contemporary
lifestyles.
And so a black child does not wake up and not have...
uh
I don't want to use the word options, but I guess that's the closest thing I can use.
(25:48):
in terms of, know, there's nothing wrong with reading Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs,nothing wrong with reading Alice in Wonderland, but you should read about you first.
And then the Alice in Wonderland becomes an extracurricular thing that enriches what youalready hear.
But right as of today, it's unfortunately...
(26:11):
You're reading all this sort of stuff that has nothing to do with our heritage oranything.
And then the rest that has to do with us is missing in recognizing that the questionbecomes who gets to do these things and who are the people that are going to be working on
this stuff?
And this is to me where creatives have to wake up, creatives of color, people of all thesebeautiful creatives that are people of color.
(26:37):
It's a mandate for us to now devote this
gifts that we have into cultivating, into nurturing, into creating all this content thatcan give our future alternatives.
If you come to the table of books, you have 10 choices.
(26:59):
Today, you only have one choice.
I'll tell you a really short story.
My son is mixed race.
We were living in London at the time and we were on holiday in Spain.
And my husband is a native Spanish speaker and we wanted to have books where in English,books that were in French because I speak to him in French only.
(27:22):
And my husband speaks to him in Spanish only.
So you can imagine the books that you need to have to be able to nurture all of thoselanguages.
So we go to this little bookstore in San Sebastian, and it's a beautiful bookstore thathas this impressive children's section.
And there are these great books that are in Spanish.
(27:44):
And so we sat on this poof with him, and I picked a book at random.
The book was called Mama and Me in Spanish.
And I flipped through it, I flipped through it.
And of course, it was of this young boy and his mom.
We purchased the book, but it was this of a young white boy and his white mother.
(28:08):
As soon as we got it home, I found a brown marker and I had to literally color the mom inbecause I wanted to be sure that he would have a good reference that while he was, he's
like, you know, a cafe-ole child.
I wanted him to always remember that his mom was a darker lady, know, more coffee coloredlady.
(28:35):
In some ways, I really wish that little boy had your new book, which we'll talk about in alittle bit, where he could see such strong representations of his culture, of his African
heritage, where his people, his mom, he knows that I'm from Haiti and we have books onHaiti.
(28:57):
He eats the food.
But that other part is the passing of the culture and filling that void you talked aboutbecause it's a psychic void, right?
It's not, it's not, you can't explain it, but you do feel it.
You feel that there's an absence of something.
Finding literature, finding design, finding stories to fill that void is so important andto reaffirm.
(29:24):
the right of belonging and to cultivate and to nurture, as you mentioned.
And can I, can I expand on this?
Okay.
Beautiful story.
And so now I'm going to tell you it's more thing that also it's part of, there's so manythings that are part of the inspiration of why our house was created.
(29:45):
But one of them was also one day I was thinking, man, say I was in home and someone cameinto my home.
How would they know an evil man?
lives in that apartment.
A black man, an African man, an Igbo man lives in that apartment.
(30:08):
And so I asked this to people and people were, well, I mean, they'll see, you know, maybethe art on my wall, maybe, you know, the food in my fridge.
You start to look and then you pick out those things.
And so I'm like, yeah, that's amazing.
Until you realize that black
(30:29):
art is actually more owned by non-black people, more or less more owned by the West thanit's owned by Africans.
Does that make those people black?
Or, you you look into the fridge, you can eat sushi all you want, doesn't make youJapanese unless you're deaf.
(30:54):
So you start to realize that once upon a time,
The African was free spiritually and materially.
And today we've been, I don't want to use the word rubbed, but we've been cleansedsystematically and methodically of everything except for the skin on our bodies.
(31:17):
And so you find out that the rituals that define us, those things have to come back.
So it's not so much about the food you eat.
but how you ritualize that food.
The objects around you, you wake up in the morning, what are the first things you do?
How do you connect to your ancestors?
(31:39):
You know, when you take a bath, how do you bathe?
It's not the food you eat, but how you eat it.
How do you commune?
Those things are all the things that, so when you look to the Japanese and you start tosee how like they have this ability to combine,
the ancient cultures with the super, super modern culture.
(32:02):
It's not so much about the food that you have, but how you ritualize the food.
You wake up in the morning, how do you connect to your ancestors?
You go to take a bath.
What are you taking a bath?
And how do you even take a bath?
Your ability to make and to connect spiritually to the world.
(32:26):
So you're just this thing that exists at the behest and mercy of everybody else, you know?
And to me, that is part of what needs rebuilding as Africans.
Our architecture, the way we interact with space, is different from the way the Westinteracts with space.
(32:47):
The West is more, you know, it's obviously through geography we've all been shaped.
As Africans, are more extroverts.
Here, you're more of an introvert.
You're more reserved in the way that you actually interact with life.
And so you find out that we are here uh almost like a round peg being forced into a squareuh hole.
(33:16):
And so for me, it's a fantastic thing to awaken to, but it's also a very terrifying thing.
you know, in terms of, my goodness, it's all everywhere.
Look, I need to redefine what it is that defines who I am because such as a person, butthe things you surround yourself by and how you interact with it.
(33:37):
And I'm assuming that is one of the impetus, that's one of the driving factors as to whyyou decided to write a book.
Can you tell us a little bit about that experience?
Well, okay, regarding the book, it's all what's at stake is the image of the African.
(33:59):
Our image has been defined by others that are not us.
In other words, your image had already traveled ahead of you to China, to Portugal, toFrance, later on to the United States before we came.
by the you arrive, someone already has this idea of how they see you based on someoneelse's description of you.
(34:24):
And most of it is derogatory.
This has continued up until today, you know, where the normalization of the black image orwhat it is that is the black image is still being defined.
It's still being a subject of who gets to own it and who gets to define what that is.
(34:45):
And yet we're not part of that conversation and we have to be part of that conversation.
And so for me as an African, simple things like have Africans, do you see the world,intimate side of our existence?
In other words, the interiors of how we live and how we lived in the time before thecontact with the West.
(35:11):
There are very, very, very, very, very rare images of this.
However, there are images of us from afar where you're going to see the mud huts, thescantily dressed people pounding our way out mortars, and then the talking little African
uh animal to identify that you're in Africa.
Maybe there's a giraffe or maybe there's a lion and then there's a certain sun and thenvoila, that's the image of the African.
(35:36):
But then there's this other side, which when the ethnographers came and the archaeologistsand all those also came,
and carted away a lot of our objects, a lot of the things that we live with, and depositedthem into Western museums, exotified them, and did something I find to be so incredibly
(36:01):
dangerous and damaging to us, is that it turned those tools from everyday objects
that are approachable that we can use and use as part of our lives into things to be madeinto exotic affairs, deposited behind glass walls on pedestals, never to be touched, never
(36:25):
functional.
What they did now do for us is that it took away your tools and then replaced it withsomeone else's tool.
Usually the person that took away your tools replaced your tools with their tools because
Obviously, it's better for you to buy theirs than to continue to make yours.
And so you wake up with a whole generation of people that have never interacted withanything that is made in Africa, that is part of their modern ways of living.
(36:57):
Matter of fact, going to any African home today, it will be incredibly difficult for youto find anything that they're using.
that they uphold at a high level that is a tool as part of something that is part of theirancestry.
It's not our spoons and knives, it's not our bowls, it's not our chairs, it's not ourtables, you know?
(37:23):
And all this has been exchanged for something from the other.
And then you have to come to London to go to the London Museum or you come to New York,know, or come to Chicago to go to a museum to see your, how.
your ancestors created and made the things that actually was used in defining who you aretoday.
(37:45):
It's incredible.
So I wanted to bring us back to your book, and I may not pronounce it the right way, but Iencourage you to correct me.
It is called Nkemdj.
And Kem Diye, Why Do We Not Grow Beards?
This book is so beautiful.
(38:08):
So beautiful.
In fact, and I believe you won an award for it.
You won an award from the American Institute of Graphic Arts because it's just thatbeautiful.
But let's talk about the genesis of the book, how it came about.
And if you could just tell us a little bit about it too, that would be great.
(38:29):
Well, the book started its journey probably about three years ago.
Actually, about the time I had, I wanted to do something to highlight where I came from.
And so the first excursion I did was actually in food.
And I had done this restaurant, know, showcasing Nigerian cuisine, uh particularly fromIgbo culture.
(38:52):
But it was in the experience of that.
restaurant that I realized that, oh my goodness, I'm operating a bit farther away fromwhere I should be.
And we have issues that are much more foundational, know, where if the foundations arebroken, can't, you know, it doesn't matter how amazing a structure or building you're
going to build on top.
(39:12):
It's vulnerable.
Due to address those issues meant, unfortunately, I had to shut down the restaurant, butthen shutting it down.
was also what then created explorations that became warehouse.
So as part of addressing foundational issues, I was interested in where are childrengetting their basic ideas about whom they are.
(39:40):
I start to look, I don't see.
Or if you see that poorly done,
and they're done because people are frustrated about what they don't have.
And so they just got and do things like, well, wait a minute.
Here I am.
come from, you know, I'm a creative, I'm connected to some of the most amazing talents.
How come we're not using this abilities to actually innovate?
(40:06):
I, you know, these, all this amazing cultural content and treasures.
And so the idea was born, you know, to start to investigate all those things.
And so when I started, there were so many directions I found myself all of a sudden, youknow, having to address.
The book came about because I grew up with a rich, you know, history of folklore and, youknow, I mean, most people my generation and before that was normal.
(40:36):
And I was like, okay, where are all the stories?
I mean, you come here, you, you know, you see Disney and
maybe a few characters that have become this thing that Disney has become.
And yet I'm like, my God, but we, where I come from, there's thousands of these things andthey've not been, nothing has been done to invest into these things and take them to, you
(40:56):
know, polish them, modernize them, or bring them, you know, to be part of our currentculture, either from a position of education or a position of uh maintaining and nurturing
these
uh assets that go back generations.
And so I first started writing several, fact I uh think there are like four or five, no,five books or five stories, story books that are already written.
(41:27):
then, but the second thing was, it wasn't good enough to rewrite some of these folkloristsinto modern context.
But again, the image of the African
kept nagging at me.
And so I wanted to also have this visual narrative that correctly addresses and portraysus for whom we are.
(41:55):
And so this was an opportunity to actually marry both things.
So at the beginning, because of the specific idea of the story in this particular bookcalled In Candidature, Why Would You Not Grow a Beard?
Well, why would you not grow
beards.
At first it was why women don't grow beards, but then I changed it to why we do not growbeards.
that you should also, you know, I didn't want to just give it away so easily, but it alsobrought me to face a very, very difficult thing that, oh, I should say a very challenging
(42:27):
position of perception.
so beards in the West,
is a thing of masculinity, it's a thing of brute force and all what not is not usuallyassociated with feminine qualities and beauty and things like that.
And that also reminded me of a particular time way back at the onset of the century whenPicasso had come across an African mask and it shattered his perception on emotions where
(43:01):
this mask
was able to portray emotions that are deep, especially coming from someone like Picassotrained as a portrait uh artist.
I think he was one of the best in the Victorian language back then in Paris.
The going way of his training was more about realism, uh creating the most beautifulfaxing of an actual person.
(43:28):
But that meant that was very surface.
And so when he confronted this African mask, for the first time he understood that youcould actually go deeper to emotions.
And so that's something we Africans are capable of.
And that's something that is so normal for us.
In doing this book, the question was, how can you illustrate a bearded woman and make thatacceptable in the West?
(43:55):
And so I tried to do it for very, very long time because I couldn't figure out how I coulddo this.
And so one day, you're like, wait a minute, if women grew beards, what would they do?
They would do exactly what they do with the hair on their heads.
They would braid it, they would throw it, they would have ribbons, they would adorn it, ohall kinds of things, perfumes, you name it, it would all be there.
(44:18):
And I was like, my God, that's exactly the answer.
Anyway, much, much later.
I found, I now had to find someone that could work with to capture this stuff.
this young girl, Lucy, she's a French paper cut artist, very, very talented.
At first I had brought her in to do work on something else, on some paper masks that I wasalso exploring.
(44:41):
And then later I was able to convince her to come this way and do these drawings.
But it took, it took over a year and a half of research and all kinds of stuff to get whatwe wanted to get.
the feeling right, you know, and she did a fantastic job at the end to really channel andget those things.
Now, why is this important for me in terms of the illustration, the visual narrative?
(45:05):
Again, like I keep saying, it's all about our control on what it is that we are and whogets to control it.
You find out that the book is set in a time that coincided with the West's
first interaction with black Africa.
And if you look at the images that came out of that period, it is one of savages is one ofpeople that are subhuman and derogatory and all kinds of funninesses.
(45:35):
But the same time period in the hands of an African, you start to see our nobility.
You start to instead of seeing our existence from afar, which is mostly exterior, thehearts and all that stuff, you get to see us more intimately.
You see the way we are, the way the objects serve our lives and things like that.
(45:56):
And it's such a contrast.
It's such an important book in terms of not just for black folks or black children, butalso for non-black children to also see a better way or the right way to see this culture.
So for me, the book is so important on two sides, both as for the community, but foroutside of the community, because we want to read.
(46:21):
redefine and control how with that person.
Just flipping through the book is such a treat because it feels like such a classic and Iwould recommend that people listening to this will definitely have the link to both how to
purchase the book into a powerhouse.
(46:42):
It's incredibly beautiful and I really want to commend you for adding to the literatureand adding to the history and finding a way to nurture.
encourage people to be more inquisitive and to encourage just love because I think that inthe Western world it seems that only a book like Alice in Wonderland as you mentioned
(47:06):
earlier or any of the other books written by Westerns can be relatable but this book isjust such a treat in every way and the typeface as well.
Yeah, no, I had an amazing team.
I the guys at Span, I mean, uh gosh, you know, even the printers in Latvia, everybody, itwasn't a one-man job.
(47:28):
It was a culmination of so many different people.
In fact, even before the book even came out about, you know, I'd have a few people hereand they're like, man, could you read a little bit of this and tell me what you're
thinking and throw things and they didn't even know why they were doing it, but they youknow, they didn't know what's...
that meant from.
It's a book that could have only happened based on the experience.
(47:53):
The experience I have gone through and the kind of people I've met doing it is why this isable to happen.
And I think it's kind of cool actually for me to see.
It's been a pleasure to chat with you.
I really command you in being such a light.
Thank you so much, Martin.
(48:15):
You're just a bundle of beauty and it's just so cool to see and to reconnect.
there.
I have a quick favor to ask you before you go.
If you're loving this show, would you mind taking a quick second to leave us a five starreview
(48:35):
on your favorite go-to podcast app.
Here's the thing.
Those reviews are like magic fairy dust.
They help other creators of color discover our show and tap into their own artisticsuperpowers.
While you're at it, why not subscribe to our sub stack newsletter, Creative Matters.
(48:56):
Creative Matters is like a weekly dose of inspiration delivered straight to your inbox.
You can find the link
to subscribe in the show notes.
All right, that's all that I have for you today.
I can't wait to see you on the next episode.
Bye.
Hello everyone, this is Obi-Wara Moazota and this is how I create.
Welcome to This is How We Create, a show that digs deeper into the creative life ofcontemporary artists of color.
Discover what feeds their creativity and how they've found or are finding their artisticvoice.
Through these intimate and candid conversations, you'll gain insights into the lives ofcreative professionals of color that are hard to find anywhere else.
(00:30):
Welcome back to This is How We Create.
I'm your host, Martine Saverin.
I'm excited to welcome architect and design tastemaker, Obi Yara Nwazota to the show.
Obi moved to the US from Nigeria to study architecture.
Upon his graduation from architecture school, he went on to work at the most innovativedesign firms in Chicago.
(00:56):
From there, he would found his own firm, Ona Formation,
where he created several acclaimed projects influencing various scenes and culturesthroughout Chicago before becoming the owner of the Orange Skin showroom and Monodie
Chicago Mono Brand showroom.
(01:18):
In 2020, Obie launched Aquara House, whose mission is to harness the power of good designand dialogue and academic research
as powerful agents to stimulate, reactivate, elevate, and reimagine Igbo culture.
Through Okpara House, he reclaims and asserts Igbo cultures relevance to contemporarylifestyles within and beyond the Igbo community.
(01:47):
In 2021, Okpara House Publishing released their first book, Nkemdiche, Why Do We Not GrowBeards?
Which is an all ages,
illustrated storybook that is simply fantastic.
You have to check it out.
During our conversation with Opie, we will discuss how he came to architecture and designand how growing up Igbo influences and influenced everything he does.
(02:15):
We talk about what culture means and what it means to be of African descent in thesemodern times and how to think about imbuing rituals in our everyday routines.
We close the discussion with the story of how he came to write his book and Camdiche, WhyDo We Not Grow Beards?
(02:35):
Alright, let's go ahead and start the show.
Enjoy!
Welcome, Obi!
thank you so much, my team.
So I know I called you Obi, but your name is Obiara, as everyone heard from the beginningof the show.
But you've called yourself Obi for short.
(02:55):
Before the show started, we talked about how important names are.
And you are originally from Nigeria.
Can you talk to us about what it was like for you being little Obiara growing up inNigeria?
Sure, was pretty shy, timid perhaps, but mostly I would say because uh I was ahead of myclass and so I was always with older kids.
(03:27):
You know, as boys, girls mature much faster than boys and so I would imagine that for me,uh being too young for my classmates was responsible for the way.
I tended to be maybe, I don't want to use the word an introvert, but like I was more adreamer, you know, where I could disappear in my little head and then allowed my moods to
(03:54):
let me travel.
So with your moods helping you to travel, how did those moods and your mind end uptraveling to an interest in architecture and design?
Well, for me, play was such an escape.
I was very much into building.
Every little boy would get toys, whether it was Legos and things like that.
(04:18):
You were always creating, you know, these other worlds.
And so I've always been fascinated by storytelling, not the physical world we lived in,but these other fairy tales by otherworldly adventures and things like that, because it
allowed me.
to, I always believed it was a place where rules were so fluid and you could create andcreate alternatives that were real in my head as opposed to what the adults, know, what
(04:48):
the strict conventions of real world pose, especially on a child.
So for me, I think ending up being creative was not.
gonna be wasn't a surprise for me, I should say.
Yeah, that's not a surprise that I ended up that way.
Specifically, where are you from in Nigeria?
(05:09):
I'm actually Igbo.
Yes, I grew up in the southeastern part of Nigeria, which actually has a huge link toHaiti, by the way.
Well, I would just say Igbo-lele.
Yeah, we have, Vodou is very much linked to our African roots.
(05:30):
I wouldn't, I mean, who's to say that my ancestors aren't Igbo?
No, no.
Well, your first rulers, I shouldn't say rulers, but the first Toussaint or whatever,can't remember his name in Haiti.
He's actually of Igbo ancestry.
The original revolution, the first black presidential...
(05:50):
Yes, yes, him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you actually do have a very strong Igbo, direct Igbo representation in Haiti.
And matter of fact,
You know, in the Biafran war, know, we had, we tried to see it from Nigeria in 1968,between 68 and 70.
And the first country to recognize the Igbo's was actually Haiti.
(06:11):
Igbo culture is basically the tapestry, in my opinion, of Haitian culture.
think it influences our music and influences our art, and I reckon it influences the foodthat we eat.
When you think back about that young boy, can you tell me a little bit about what he wouldthink about where you are now in your life?
(06:35):
um I think, in an interesting way, I'm sure he'll be impressed.
But at the same time, I think to go from where I was, far away in those little towns andtownships in Eberland, to me here in Chicago and doing what we're doing and influencing
(07:00):
culture, design, and people's lives.
I don't think it's something that would have been dreamt of.
Perhaps, maybe traditionally growing up, England was where was the go-to place of myparents' time and the time before.
So America was never really in the radar.
So it was never something that was even thought about.
(07:21):
Matter of fact, my dad would always think that this place was just a place, you know...
uh
filled with cowboys and unruly people and all whatnot, you know, but then again, that'sjust how story goes around the world.
I remember when I first came here, one of my classmates from Peru, when her family learnedthat she had gotten a scholarship to come to America, they were so excited until they
(07:44):
found out that she was in Chicago and they all freaked out, like, because they all thoughtAl Capone was still running around.
Yes, long, long, long time ago, you know, America was not even part of the radar.
But at the end, I think,
What would have been impressive for young OB is that I broke away from the normality andthe expectations of most of the children I grew up with, where everybody had to be, you
(08:13):
you're either a doctor, you're a lawyer, you're an engineer, and all these very strictformats of education.
you the arts was not something that was encouraged.
And matter of fact, that's part of why I daydreamed a lot as a kid, because those are thethings that were easily taken away from you, because I wanted to put structure and people
(08:37):
didn't know how to deal with a kid that wants a career in creativity.
It just wasn't safe.
And I think it's the same thing that continues until today.
Although today it's a bit more relaxed, people are a bit more appreciative of
or creative industries, but back then it just wasn't.
(08:57):
And so at first as a child, it was tolerated, but then at some point you have to now growup and start taking, you know, serious your studies and you're going to go become an
engineer or this and that and blah, blah, blah.
You know, my, my mind wasn't having any of that.
And so I think Young Obi see me today will be like, wow, you really did it.
(09:22):
Curious as to how you did it.
How were you able to convince your father who probably as you mentioned that Everyone wasgoing to England, but you ended up coming to Chicago How did you manage to convince them
to to allow you to?
Go across the to where Al Capone probably still reigns
(09:47):
I'll tell you something.
I grew up in a strict, strict home.
I mean, I, wasn't fun.
I, it was not fun at all.
I mean, this is how, how not fun it was.
Uh, most of my mates in boarding school hated going to any excuse.
(10:08):
mean, boarding school was fun, but any excuse to go home, they were on it.
For me, boarding school was my escape.
time to go home after boarding school was dread.
I dreaded it.
By the time I could, this was my means of running away.
Cause it worked out that my father never liked America, rarely came this way.
(10:31):
And so was like, where is the farthest place I can go that these guys would not come afterme and then I can go be myself.
And America happened to be it.
And the moment it was possible, I was gone.
And so
Coming here meant that I now could take control of my life and do what I learned andreally push myself to where I wanted to go without having to submit to higher forces and
(11:00):
so forth and so forth.
And I mean, there's so much more to it than this interview allows, but anyway, that'sgeneral gist of it.
I think you're right.
I don't think we have the time to speak about this part about you having an intrinsicunderstanding of who you are and how restrictive you might have felt.
(11:21):
putting words in your mouth.
um or not fun.
You said not fun.
How not fun.
you have be correct when you say not very restrictive.
Actually, believe me, that's mild.
I'm not saying that, I mean, I'm not talking about being abused.
That's not the, that's not the point.
It's not, I wasn't abused or any other stuff, but it's just people.
(11:41):
And remember I said at the beginning how like I went to school far too young for my class,for my proper age makes, you know, the difference between a nine year old boy and a 12
year old boy is like night and day.
as opposed to a 21-year-old boy and a 24-year-old person.
You understand?
The age is such a big difference.
(12:03):
People are expecting of you what someone at 12 is doing and you are nine.
you know, it's just, yeah, it's, Anyway, were also based on their expectations that werejust not correct.
Thank you for sharing that.
There's a huge difference psychologically and developmentally between nine and 12, I knowfor sure.
(12:26):
So you came to Chicago to study architecture.
Can you tell me a little bit about what that experience was like and how your approach toarchitecture and design has changed since you've been over here?
So I came here, yes, I came to study architecture.
(12:48):
My first semester, I didn't know my left from my right, because actually, in I transferredinto my second year.
So I actually missed out on the first year when people have been broken in and you'rebeing taught the basics and all that stuff.
And so I joined them in my second year without any of that stuff.
And I'm sure most of my classmates thought I might not even survive the next semester.
(13:13):
which truly was about to happen.
Somehow I discovered that there was more to architecture than architecture.
And that was the world of design.
And that's what I became smitten by.
I remember approaching one of my professors and I'm like, man, please, could you teach mehow to design?
(13:33):
And the guy looks at me and like, laughed.
And it's like, Orby, if I could teach you how to design, I won't be here talking to you.
be in my own private island, richer than God, you know.
I like, my goodness.
But then he actually gave me some pointers.
I ended up basically living in a library, soaking up everything that was to do aboutdesign and all that stuff.
(13:57):
So I literally taught myself to recognize and to understand what were the markers, whatwere the differences, what was what.
Of course, at first your copy and paste type of a thing, and then slowly
things start to align, they start to make sense and you start to discern those things.
And so for me, that was the beginning of realizing that there was more to architecturethan the discourse allows, you know, where you're almost kind of boxed in, you know,
(14:27):
within certain strict rules and things like that.
And for me, anything that gives me the feeling of being strict, automatically, I want tobreak out of that.
And that I think goes back to my childhood.
And so from the get-go,
The way I saw architecture was not necessarily the way a lot of my classmates did, know,where it's about brick and mortar, it's about philosophy and blah, blah, blah, and all
(14:52):
that stuff.
For me, was all about living, how we lived, you know, and architecture I saw ineverything.
And so it took a long time to get to where I am today in terms of being a person tomanifest those things.
Because to me, the training of architecture
You know, you go to school and you train for four years, five years, know, seven years.
(15:15):
It's not enough to, because architecture for me, you know, it's a combination of art andscience and it's probably one of the ultimate forms of creativity.
you can't, nothing in this school can teach you in five to seven years, you know.
You know, that's why I think even in that trade, even when you practice architecture as aformal endeavor, it takes years and years and years and years for you to start.
(15:40):
break out to start to really do stuff.
You know, I quickly found out that for me, it wasn't just in building actual buildings,but architecture for me was in, you know, it was beyond building, beating books, beating
products, objects, art, food, you name it.
That to me, it's architecture of life.
And that was what my interest became.
(16:05):
I fell in love with design, everything that has to do with design when I was in my, Ithink in my early 20s.
How I grew up with around a lot of immigrants where we were told you had to go into thesensible careers, lawyer um or medicine.
(16:26):
Yep.
Design never occurred to me and it's not until now that I realized that world and theworld I am now in as a photographer.
That's my world, that's my jam and I don't think I never realized that how it is, itunderguards everything that we do.
You know, when you think about design and you see a street sign or you're going down thehighway, it is the, just, it provides the structure.
(16:53):
to our lives and we don't think, we don't talk about that part of it.
really such a good point you're making because to me, at the end of the day, you could bea chemist, you could be a physician, you could be a lawyer or any of these other
professions.
What separates you from everybody else is actually if you understand that every field isactually a creative field.
(17:23):
You see, you could be a doctor and you're all about
you know, getting that amazing salary and then, you know, doing your shifts here, there,or you're like, how do I use the tools that have been taught to now expand, you know, the
minds of people to create and create new medicines, new ways of healing and all that.
(17:44):
That to me is where design comes in.
And you see that it's manifest in all these other things, but we tend to separate thesethings into, and partition them into different boxes.
In my opinion, nature does not work that way.
It's all interrelated.
And so you find out that design as a course, as a discourse, actually should be anunderlay on top of which all the other things should be built.
(18:10):
And if we had that, then I believe we should be a bit more closer to understanding the waynature, actually the natural world actually works.
And when you do look at how the world works and you think about the design that's in aleaf or the design that's on the scales of a fish, I mean, it's just, it's in everything.
(18:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
But I mean, that's another conversation that we could ah go into gladly.
This is a really great segue because I met you before.
I don't think you remember me.
I was at Minati.
So you are a tastemaker and everyone in Chicago knows your name because you're not onlythe owner of the Orange Skin showroom and Minati Chicago, you've even launched a
(19:04):
restaurant.
So I met you when I was doing a photo shoot with Patrick Chavez.
Yes.
remember you were styling or no, no, you did the photography or something.
I can't remember exactly, but yes.
my God.
And that's for the world.
you imagine?
Isn't that a small world?
(19:25):
I remember you talking about orange skin and how passionate you were about design andabout giving a voice to brown voices.
I think you since then went and you founded Okpara House.
You are creating content where the whole goal is to
(19:50):
encourage people to take responsibility to build a better and fairer society whereinclusion and equity is for everyone and is not just a privilege.
I would love for you to talk a little bit about that.
Okay, well, do you have a week?
(20:13):
Okay.
All right.
Well, since we're done, we'll find a way to speak and to keep it very short.
Well, essentially it's this.
We are, you know, the West pretty much deservedly or undeservedly or whatever, however youwant to argue the case.
That's really besides the point.
But at the end of the day, they are the overriding narrative that has actually pretty muchcondensed
(20:40):
every other composition into their narrative.
know, nothing could be farther from the truth.
The world is a multiracial, multiethnic experience.
Each of these ethnicities and races, you know, every other thing in between, is actuallythe richness that we are as humans.
(21:05):
You know,
Access to all these opinions, tastes, philosophy, ideas is part of what really makes uscomplete.
And so you find out that the entire education that runs the world of design and prettymuch every other, you know, most of the professions are all seen through a singular
(21:29):
perspective.
And it's all wonderful.
as long as, yes, you're doing that and you're working within it and not outside of it.
But then you wake up one day and you realize that there's more to this thing.
There's so much more to it than just this tiny sliver of uh reference.
(21:49):
And so you start to ask the questions.
And, you know, for me, the questions I started asking some years ago, you know, what's sodifficult is you can't just go off on a limb.
and be an army of one.
I mean, some people do that, but it just puts you, the challenges at a spectacularlyhumongous place that sometimes you end up being swallowed by the challenges that you don't
(22:16):
end up getting anything done.
But anyway, so here I am, I've been under the titillation of a particular point ofreference and I've worked within the confines of that reference point.
And then you wake up one day and you realize that you come from elsewhere.
And so it becomes a question of recognizing that there are all identities.
(22:38):
And so the question becomes, and who am I?
Where do I come from?
What do I represent?
And where am I going?
You start to realize that everything you've been prepared to be has been defined by theother.
and has nothing to do actually with whom you are.
(23:01):
You can continue or you could do something about it.
And so I chose to actually address these things.
Now, and I'm going to kind of jump in about a bit.
So along my exploration research and all whatnot, uh we woke up one day last year, it was2020.
(23:22):
and the pandemic came and then followed swiftly by the BLM movement.
And so the BLM movement was so powerful and important in the sense that it tore off allthe blinders that we had about the concerns of Black folks worldwide.
(23:43):
Questions were now made to confront questions that we either sidestepped or didn't evenrecognize was there.
And we just had to face these things face on.
And part of the things that I found so amazing was, the same time, it can be shocking, butit also depends on how you look at it.
(24:05):
know, they say the glass is either half full or half empty.
But in my perspective, what this thing did was it took this, it violently tore off thisveil on the
eyes of black folks to reveal, avoid this empty abyss where it should have been full ofour assets, our knowledge assets, our cultural assets, the things that identify us to what
(24:37):
it is to be African, whether you're paid to the mainland or you're paid to the diaspora, Imean, black African.
And so this emptiness
Actually, as frightening as it is to see this void, it also was amazing to know that, nowat least we know that this was something that should have been filled with something.
(25:02):
That thing it should be filled with is our, these are our assets, you the contents of ourlife.
And these things have to be built or rebuilt in this case, but rebuilding not by others,but this time around by us.
And hence part of what Opera House stands to do is to now create.
(25:24):
But this time around, I'm going back into my culture, Igbo culture, and taking our assets,knowledge assets, our cultural assets, and making them relevant again to contemporary
lifestyles.
And so a black child does not wake up and not have...
uh
I don't want to use the word options, but I guess that's the closest thing I can use.
(25:48):
in terms of, know, there's nothing wrong with reading Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs,nothing wrong with reading Alice in Wonderland, but you should read about you first.
And then the Alice in Wonderland becomes an extracurricular thing that enriches what youalready hear.
But right as of today, it's unfortunately...
(26:11):
You're reading all this sort of stuff that has nothing to do with our heritage oranything.
And then the rest that has to do with us is missing in recognizing that the questionbecomes who gets to do these things and who are the people that are going to be working on
this stuff?
And this is to me where creatives have to wake up, creatives of color, people of all thesebeautiful creatives that are people of color.
(26:37):
It's a mandate for us to now devote this
gifts that we have into cultivating, into nurturing, into creating all this content thatcan give our future alternatives.
If you come to the table of books, you have 10 choices.
(26:59):
Today, you only have one choice.
I'll tell you a really short story.
My son is mixed race.
We were living in London at the time and we were on holiday in Spain.
And my husband is a native Spanish speaker and we wanted to have books where in English,books that were in French because I speak to him in French only.
(27:22):
And my husband speaks to him in Spanish only.
So you can imagine the books that you need to have to be able to nurture all of thoselanguages.
So we go to this little bookstore in San Sebastian, and it's a beautiful bookstore thathas this impressive children's section.
And there are these great books that are in Spanish.
(27:44):
And so we sat on this poof with him, and I picked a book at random.
The book was called Mama and Me in Spanish.
And I flipped through it, I flipped through it.
And of course, it was of this young boy and his mom.
We purchased the book, but it was this of a young white boy and his white mother.
(28:08):
As soon as we got it home, I found a brown marker and I had to literally color the mom inbecause I wanted to be sure that he would have a good reference that while he was, he's
like, you know, a cafe-ole child.
I wanted him to always remember that his mom was a darker lady, know, more coffee coloredlady.
(28:35):
In some ways, I really wish that little boy had your new book, which we'll talk about in alittle bit, where he could see such strong representations of his culture, of his African
heritage, where his people, his mom, he knows that I'm from Haiti and we have books onHaiti.
(28:57):
He eats the food.
But that other part is the passing of the culture and filling that void you talked aboutbecause it's a psychic void, right?
It's not, it's not, you can't explain it, but you do feel it.
You feel that there's an absence of something.
Finding literature, finding design, finding stories to fill that void is so important andto reaffirm.
(29:24):
the right of belonging and to cultivate and to nurture, as you mentioned.
And can I, can I expand on this?
Okay.
Beautiful story.
And so now I'm going to tell you it's more thing that also it's part of, there's so manythings that are part of the inspiration of why our house was created.
(29:45):
But one of them was also one day I was thinking, man, say I was in home and someone cameinto my home.
How would they know an evil man?
lives in that apartment.
A black man, an African man, an Igbo man lives in that apartment.
(30:08):
And so I asked this to people and people were, well, I mean, they'll see, you know, maybethe art on my wall, maybe, you know, the food in my fridge.
You start to look and then you pick out those things.
And so I'm like, yeah, that's amazing.
Until you realize that black
(30:29):
art is actually more owned by non-black people, more or less more owned by the West thanit's owned by Africans.
Does that make those people black?
Or, you you look into the fridge, you can eat sushi all you want, doesn't make youJapanese unless you're deaf.
(30:54):
So you start to realize that once upon a time,
The African was free spiritually and materially.
And today we've been, I don't want to use the word rubbed, but we've been cleansedsystematically and methodically of everything except for the skin on our bodies.
(31:17):
And so you find out that the rituals that define us, those things have to come back.
So it's not so much about the food you eat.
but how you ritualize that food.
The objects around you, you wake up in the morning, what are the first things you do?
How do you connect to your ancestors?
(31:39):
You know, when you take a bath, how do you bathe?
It's not the food you eat, but how you eat it.
How do you commune?
Those things are all the things that, so when you look to the Japanese and you start tosee how like they have this ability to combine,
the ancient cultures with the super, super modern culture.
(32:02):
It's not so much about the food that you have, but how you ritualize the food.
You wake up in the morning, how do you connect to your ancestors?
You go to take a bath.
What are you taking a bath?
And how do you even take a bath?
Your ability to make and to connect spiritually to the world.
(32:26):
So you're just this thing that exists at the behest and mercy of everybody else, you know?
And to me, that is part of what needs rebuilding as Africans.
Our architecture, the way we interact with space, is different from the way the Westinteracts with space.
(32:47):
The West is more, you know, it's obviously through geography we've all been shaped.
As Africans, are more extroverts.
Here, you're more of an introvert.
You're more reserved in the way that you actually interact with life.
And so you find out that we are here uh almost like a round peg being forced into a squareuh hole.
(33:16):
And so for me, it's a fantastic thing to awaken to, but it's also a very terrifying thing.
you know, in terms of, my goodness, it's all everywhere.
Look, I need to redefine what it is that defines who I am because such as a person, butthe things you surround yourself by and how you interact with it.
(33:37):
And I'm assuming that is one of the impetus, that's one of the driving factors as to whyyou decided to write a book.
Can you tell us a little bit about that experience?
Well, okay, regarding the book, it's all what's at stake is the image of the African.
(33:59):
Our image has been defined by others that are not us.
In other words, your image had already traveled ahead of you to China, to Portugal, toFrance, later on to the United States before we came.
by the you arrive, someone already has this idea of how they see you based on someoneelse's description of you.
(34:24):
And most of it is derogatory.
This has continued up until today, you know, where the normalization of the black image orwhat it is that is the black image is still being defined.
It's still being a subject of who gets to own it and who gets to define what that is.
(34:45):
And yet we're not part of that conversation and we have to be part of that conversation.
And so for me as an African, simple things like have Africans, do you see the world,intimate side of our existence?
In other words, the interiors of how we live and how we lived in the time before thecontact with the West.
(35:11):
There are very, very, very, very, very rare images of this.
However, there are images of us from afar where you're going to see the mud huts, thescantily dressed people pounding our way out mortars, and then the talking little African
uh animal to identify that you're in Africa.
Maybe there's a giraffe or maybe there's a lion and then there's a certain sun and thenvoila, that's the image of the African.
(35:36):
But then there's this other side, which when the ethnographers came and the archaeologistsand all those also came,
and carted away a lot of our objects, a lot of the things that we live with, and depositedthem into Western museums, exotified them, and did something I find to be so incredibly
(36:01):
dangerous and damaging to us, is that it turned those tools from everyday objects
that are approachable that we can use and use as part of our lives into things to be madeinto exotic affairs, deposited behind glass walls on pedestals, never to be touched, never
(36:25):
functional.
What they did now do for us is that it took away your tools and then replaced it withsomeone else's tool.
Usually the person that took away your tools replaced your tools with their tools because
Obviously, it's better for you to buy theirs than to continue to make yours.
And so you wake up with a whole generation of people that have never interacted withanything that is made in Africa, that is part of their modern ways of living.
(36:57):
Matter of fact, going to any African home today, it will be incredibly difficult for youto find anything that they're using.
that they uphold at a high level that is a tool as part of something that is part of theirancestry.
It's not our spoons and knives, it's not our bowls, it's not our chairs, it's not ourtables, you know?
(37:23):
And all this has been exchanged for something from the other.
And then you have to come to London to go to the London Museum or you come to New York,know, or come to Chicago to go to a museum to see your, how.
your ancestors created and made the things that actually was used in defining who you aretoday.
(37:45):
It's incredible.
So I wanted to bring us back to your book, and I may not pronounce it the right way, but Iencourage you to correct me.
It is called Nkemdj.
And Kem Diye, Why Do We Not Grow Beards?
This book is so beautiful.
(38:08):
So beautiful.
In fact, and I believe you won an award for it.
You won an award from the American Institute of Graphic Arts because it's just thatbeautiful.
But let's talk about the genesis of the book, how it came about.
And if you could just tell us a little bit about it too, that would be great.
(38:29):
Well, the book started its journey probably about three years ago.
Actually, about the time I had, I wanted to do something to highlight where I came from.
And so the first excursion I did was actually in food.
And I had done this restaurant, know, showcasing Nigerian cuisine, uh particularly fromIgbo culture.
(38:52):
But it was in the experience of that.
restaurant that I realized that, oh my goodness, I'm operating a bit farther away fromwhere I should be.
And we have issues that are much more foundational, know, where if the foundations arebroken, can't, you know, it doesn't matter how amazing a structure or building you're
going to build on top.
(39:12):
It's vulnerable.
Due to address those issues meant, unfortunately, I had to shut down the restaurant, butthen shutting it down.
was also what then created explorations that became warehouse.
So as part of addressing foundational issues, I was interested in where are childrengetting their basic ideas about whom they are.
(39:40):
I start to look, I don't see.
Or if you see that poorly done,
and they're done because people are frustrated about what they don't have.
And so they just got and do things like, well, wait a minute.
Here I am.
come from, you know, I'm a creative, I'm connected to some of the most amazing talents.
How come we're not using this abilities to actually innovate?
(40:06):
I, you know, these, all this amazing cultural content and treasures.
And so the idea was born, you know, to start to investigate all those things.
And so when I started, there were so many directions I found myself all of a sudden, youknow, having to address.
The book came about because I grew up with a rich, you know, history of folklore and, youknow, I mean, most people my generation and before that was normal.
(40:36):
And I was like, okay, where are all the stories?
I mean, you come here, you, you know, you see Disney and
maybe a few characters that have become this thing that Disney has become.
And yet I'm like, my God, but we, where I come from, there's thousands of these things andthey've not been, nothing has been done to invest into these things and take them to, you
(40:56):
know, polish them, modernize them, or bring them, you know, to be part of our currentculture, either from a position of education or a position of uh maintaining and nurturing
these
uh assets that go back generations.
And so I first started writing several, fact I uh think there are like four or five, no,five books or five stories, story books that are already written.
(41:27):
then, but the second thing was, it wasn't good enough to rewrite some of these folkloristsinto modern context.
But again, the image of the African
kept nagging at me.
And so I wanted to also have this visual narrative that correctly addresses and portraysus for whom we are.
(41:55):
And so this was an opportunity to actually marry both things.
So at the beginning, because of the specific idea of the story in this particular bookcalled In Candidature, Why Would You Not Grow a Beard?
Well, why would you not grow
beards.
At first it was why women don't grow beards, but then I changed it to why we do not growbeards.
that you should also, you know, I didn't want to just give it away so easily, but it alsobrought me to face a very, very difficult thing that, oh, I should say a very challenging
(42:27):
position of perception.
so beards in the West,
is a thing of masculinity, it's a thing of brute force and all what not is not usuallyassociated with feminine qualities and beauty and things like that.
And that also reminded me of a particular time way back at the onset of the century whenPicasso had come across an African mask and it shattered his perception on emotions where
(43:01):
this mask
was able to portray emotions that are deep, especially coming from someone like Picassotrained as a portrait uh artist.
I think he was one of the best in the Victorian language back then in Paris.
The going way of his training was more about realism, uh creating the most beautifulfaxing of an actual person.
(43:28):
But that meant that was very surface.
And so when he confronted this African mask, for the first time he understood that youcould actually go deeper to emotions.
And so that's something we Africans are capable of.
And that's something that is so normal for us.
In doing this book, the question was, how can you illustrate a bearded woman and make thatacceptable in the West?
(43:55):
And so I tried to do it for very, very long time because I couldn't figure out how I coulddo this.
And so one day, you're like, wait a minute, if women grew beards, what would they do?
They would do exactly what they do with the hair on their heads.
They would braid it, they would throw it, they would have ribbons, they would adorn it, ohall kinds of things, perfumes, you name it, it would all be there.
(44:18):
And I was like, my God, that's exactly the answer.
Anyway, much, much later.
I found, I now had to find someone that could work with to capture this stuff.
this young girl, Lucy, she's a French paper cut artist, very, very talented.
At first I had brought her in to do work on something else, on some paper masks that I wasalso exploring.
(44:41):
And then later I was able to convince her to come this way and do these drawings.
But it took, it took over a year and a half of research and all kinds of stuff to get whatwe wanted to get.
the feeling right, you know, and she did a fantastic job at the end to really channel andget those things.
Now, why is this important for me in terms of the illustration, the visual narrative?
(45:05):
Again, like I keep saying, it's all about our control on what it is that we are and whogets to control it.
You find out that the book is set in a time that coincided with the West's
first interaction with black Africa.
And if you look at the images that came out of that period, it is one of savages is one ofpeople that are subhuman and derogatory and all kinds of funninesses.
(45:35):
But the same time period in the hands of an African, you start to see our nobility.
You start to instead of seeing our existence from afar, which is mostly exterior, thehearts and all that stuff, you get to see us more intimately.
You see the way we are, the way the objects serve our lives and things like that.
(45:56):
And it's such a contrast.
It's such an important book in terms of not just for black folks or black children, butalso for non-black children to also see a better way or the right way to see this culture.
So for me, the book is so important on two sides, both as for the community, but foroutside of the community, because we want to read.
(46:21):
redefine and control how with that person.
Just flipping through the book is such a treat because it feels like such a classic and Iwould recommend that people listening to this will definitely have the link to both how to
purchase the book into a powerhouse.
(46:42):
It's incredibly beautiful and I really want to commend you for adding to the literatureand adding to the history and finding a way to nurture.
encourage people to be more inquisitive and to encourage just love because I think that inthe Western world it seems that only a book like Alice in Wonderland as you mentioned
(47:06):
earlier or any of the other books written by Westerns can be relatable but this book isjust such a treat in every way and the typeface as well.
Yeah, no, I had an amazing team.
I the guys at Span, I mean, uh gosh, you know, even the printers in Latvia, everybody, itwasn't a one-man job.
(47:28):
It was a culmination of so many different people.
In fact, even before the book even came out about, you know, I'd have a few people hereand they're like, man, could you read a little bit of this and tell me what you're
thinking and throw things and they didn't even know why they were doing it, but they youknow, they didn't know what's...
that meant from.
It's a book that could have only happened based on the experience.
(47:53):
The experience I have gone through and the kind of people I've met doing it is why this isable to happen.
And I think it's kind of cool actually for me to see.
It's been a pleasure to chat with you.
I really command you in being such a light.
Thank you so much, Martin.
(48:15):
You're just a bundle of beauty and it's just so cool to see and to reconnect.
there.
I have a quick favor to ask you before you go.
If you're loving this show, would you mind taking a quick second to leave us a five starreview
(48:35):
on your favorite go-to podcast app.
Here's the thing.
Those reviews are like magic fairy dust.
They help other creators of color discover our show and tap into their own artisticsuperpowers.
While you're at it, why not subscribe to our sub stack newsletter, Creative Matters.
(48:56):
Creative Matters is like a weekly dose of inspiration delivered straight to your inbox.
You can find the link
to subscribe in the show notes.
All right, that's all that I have for you today.
I can't wait to see you on the next episode.
Bye.
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