August 12, 2025 • 58 mins
What does it take to leap into the unknown for the sake of your creative calling? In this episode, I talk with Lori Tharps, a writer, educator, and creative catalyst who did just that.
Lori shares the powerful story behind her decision to leave a tenured professorship at Temple University to start a new life in Southern Spain.
We explore her journey to create The Sanctuary, a vital community for BIPOC women writers, and dig into her profound belief that storytelling is a tool with the power to change the world. This conversation is a moving testament to the magic that unfolds when you have the courage to build the life you've always imagined.
Chapters
00:00 - Introducing Lori L. Tharps
02:52 - The Childhood Friendship That Sparked a Creative Life
07:25 - From "Lying" to Storytelling: The Gift of a Typewriter
09:47 - What Truly Makes a Good Story?
16:04 - "Watch Me": Defying the Myth That Motherhood and Writing Don't Mix
17:47 - The Physical Feeling of Purpose: Flow vs. Frustration
21:17 - The Leap of Faith: Why She Left a Tenured Professorship for Spain
28:28 - Making Time to Create, Inspired by Our Literary Ancestors
32:53 - The Birth of The Sanctuary for BIPOC Women Writers
37:04 - The Myth of the Solitary Writer and the Power of Community
47:17 - What Does a Real Writing Practice Look Like? (It's More Than Just Writing)
53:34 - The Gospel of Storytelling: How New Narratives Can Save the World
Check out the full video interview on our YouTube channel!
Connect with Lori:
Follow Lori on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/loriltharps/?hl=en
Lori’s Website: https://www.loriltharps.com/
Support the Show
Website: www.martineseverin.com
Follow on Instagram: @martine.severin | @thisishowwecreate_
Subscribe to the Newsletter: www.martineseverin.substack.com
This is How We Create is produced by Martine Severin. This episode was edited by Santiago Cardona and Daniel Espinosa.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, this is Lori L.
Farbs and this is how I create.
Welcome to This is How We Create, a show that digs deeper into the creative life ofcontemporary artists of color.
Discover what feeds their creativity and how they've found or are finding their artisticvoice.
Through these intimate and candid conversations, you'll gain insights into the lives ofcreative professionals of color that are hard to find anywhere else.
(00:27):
Welcome back to This Is How We Create.
My name is Martine Severin, your host.
Today, we have Lori L.
Tharps on the show.
In a world where stories shape our understanding of reality, some voices have remainedpersistently unheard.
And today we're joined by Lori L.
Tharps, a writer who's dedicated her life to changing that narrative.
(00:49):
From her early days as a journalist at Entertainment Weekly in Essence to becoming atenured professor
At Temple University, Lori has consistently broken new grounds in storytelling.
But perhaps her most dramatic chapter began in 2021 when she left her established life inAmerica to start anew in Southern Spain.
(01:11):
There, she launched Read, Write, and Create, a platform and podcast supporting womenwriters of color.
Her latest venture, The Sanctuary, provides a space for BIPOC women writers
to nurture their craft and build sustainable careers.
Tharves, whose work includes the acclaimed book, Hair Story, Untangling the Roots of BlackHair in America, and collaborations on the redemption of Bobby Love, joins us today to
(01:42):
discuss her journey from that first Remington typewriter to becoming a champion fordiverse voices in literature.
Laurie, it is so much.
I'm looking forward to this so much.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me, Martine.
I'm so excited to be here.
(02:02):
So I don't always get a chance to meet my guest first, but you and I met at Afros andAudio, a podcast conference in Baltimore just this year.
And it's so fun because I had stumbled upon your work and didn't really know it.
And you had stumbled upon my work and I didn't know that you had stumbled upon my work.
(02:25):
So it was just like a really lovely coming together.
We will start the podcast.
going back to your childhood memories.
Could you share with us your childhood memories of growing up in Wisconsin?
And can you tell us about any exposure that you had to creativity and to the arts and howthat might have influenced your journey into writing, into the work that you do today?
(02:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's really funny because I was just in New York City and I was staying with mychildhood best friend.
um Her name is Miko and I was just commenting to her because I was with my daughter andshe has a son who's about the same age as my daughter.
And we were saying, oh, our children have to become best friends as well since we werechildhood best friends.
(03:18):
And I was trying to explain to my daughter why
our relationship, mine and my friend Miko's, was so important.
And I realize it's because our friendship really, I feel, introduced me to this idea ofcreativity and reading in a very specific way.
And ironically, Miko grew up, she designs books and I write books.
(03:42):
So it's like the friendship.
And the influence of books and reading and art is obviously very strong.
It wasn't just for me.
So growing up in Wisconsin, often felt that I was, because I was often the only blackperson in the mostly white spaces that I inhabited in my neighborhood, in my school, I was
(04:03):
a swimmer.
everything I did seemed to be very white.
And because Milwaukee, where the city I grew up in is a very segregated city,
and we happened to live in the white parts of the city, because it was also very, it's notjust racially segregated, but also very uh economically segregated.
So all that to say, they are the spaces that I were in were very white.
(04:25):
So Miko, my best friend from the time I was four years old, happened to be Japanese andIrish.
So her mom was Japanese and her Japanese American and her dad was Irish American.
And she was an only child and her...
parents would often want me to hang around because then their daughter would have somebodyto hang out with.
And both Miko's parents were artists as well.
(04:49):
And so they didn't have a television.
And when I would go over to play with Miko, we would most often either play some kind ofimaginative play with dress up or we would create these fantastical worlds.
Sometimes she did my hair.
That was her way of like, she liked to use my hair as sculpture material.
(05:11):
My mom would always say, don't let Niko play with your hair, because she would take outwhatever braids my mom had given me and play with my hair.
And we would read.
Again, no TV allowed in Niko's house.
So Niko introduced me to the love of reading.
So we would read, we would talk about the stories we read, we would make up our ownstories.
And Niko's parents would read to us as well.
(05:33):
So it was like reading and storytelling and imaginative.
even our Halloween costumes were so creative.
And Miko once made an entire outfit out of hefty trash bags.
like, I just like playing with her and being in their household where creativity wasreally praised and really honored.
(05:55):
just, as I look back on it, and again, because I just spent a lot of time with Miko this,you know, less than a month ago, I was really, really aware of how much their influence
had on me.
And also because Miko's mother was Japanese American, we ate a lot of Japanese food.
I learned some Japanese language.
So not to say that that was the entirety of what inspired me to be a writer, but it gaveme very early access to this idea of living a creative life and what that looked like in
(06:31):
kind of everyday terms.
So Miko was just my friend, her parents.
happened to be artists, I didn't think about it in those concrete terms.
I just saw what it was like to center reading and creative play and not using televisionas your main mode of entertainment.
So that was, feel like, a big influence on my quote unquote creativity.
(06:53):
And when it turned into writing for me was when my mother came home and she had found anantique Remington typewriter at a Remmage sale.
and that was something she liked to do for fun, was just go treasure hunting at rummagesales.
And she gave me that typewriter because she said that she knew I was a naturalstoryteller.
(07:15):
I told a lot of lies.
I would make up stories and lie about things all the time, but not like lies like, did youeat the last cookie?
I would lie about like, I would tell people I was an orphan or like that my parents diedin a fire or something like, I mean like ridiculous stories because I was deeply
influenced by like James and the Giant Peach and other stories where the children are allorphans.
(07:40):
And I'm like, well, I would like to have this dramatic story.
My dad thought there was like something deeply wrong with me that I was lying all thetime.
My mom saw me as a storyteller, so she bought me a typewriter.
So the...
The typewriter allowed me to take all these creative ideas I had in my head.
And I think some of my creativity was also born of this desire of escapism because I wasattracted to people who were different because I was different.
(08:09):
So that's why I loved being with Miko's family because everything about their life wasvery different, culturally different.
And then the artistic part was also different.
And I just gravitated towards other, otherness, difference.
And so I could write all these crazy ideas and stories down with my typewriter and makewhat was in my head manifest on the page.
(08:32):
And that to me was really exciting.
And also I had, again, the flair for the dramatic, call it lies, call it storyteller, butI liked an audience.
So I often started out writing plays and then performing them and forcing my cousins, Ihad lots of cousins, to perform the plays that I wrote.
(08:54):
But I was like Tyler Perry before Tyler Perry.
I was like, I starred, wrote, directed, costume designer.
And I even would, of course, print programs listing all of my accomplishments.
I would mention my cousins who were the actors, but I also mentioned everything else thatwas done by me.
So I loved an audience.
(09:14):
I did love an audience.
And I was in theater a lot too.
So that's where my creative childhood was.
And as much as I, you know,
don't have a lot of love for Milwaukee because of its lack of diversity in some ways, Iwas able to explore all of my creative interests.
I did theater, I did little writing courses, I did stand-up comedy.
(09:39):
So all of the things that were interesting to me, I was able to pursue them from a prettyearly age, and I am grateful for that.
So you teach writing, but more specifically, you are the queen of what makes a good story.
That's how I know you.
Can you tell us about how even that early on, how you came to understand what makes areally good story?
(10:09):
Sure.
So, again, because I was often writing for an audience, right?
Like, I often performed my stories, whether it was a straight play or I was maybe justreading the story aloud, I was able to see what people liked, right?
And I spoke to a, um I interviewed an author, E.B.
(10:30):
Zoboi, who spoke about this as well, where she said she actually got her start, she's anovelist, but she actually
got her start in spoken word poetry.
And she's like, the best way to see how your words hit is to perform them, right?
It's like, right, you get that automatic response when the audience responds to this, theysigh, they clap, they laugh.
(10:57):
And she's like, that's a really powerful way to know that you're a writer, to know thatyou know how to manipulate words to strike or to get a response from your audience.
And so I think a lot of writers, whether they're storytellers or writers, don't realizehow powerful it is to have that immediate feedback because then it can help you understand
(11:19):
what moves people, right?
What are the elements in a story that move people?
And again, most stories are written to be heard or to be read by other people.
So I think what makes a good story is relatable characters,
who are doing something interesting.
remember, interesting is a very subjective word, and it's up to the storyteller to makethe something interesting, right?
(11:47):
So, relatable characters doing something interesting and some kind of tension in thestory.
So the tension, you know, if it's a thriller, mean, the tension is, the main charactergonna die?
But tension could also be, is attractive man gonna fall in love with the mousy?
It's librarian, right?
There's the tension.
(12:08):
Like, can it actually happen?
I mean, and you can eat a good storyteller can make tension in something as simple as willthe little boy appreciate the sacrifices that the apple tree made him, made for him, which
was, know, Shel Silverstein's book, The Giving Tree, which to this day guts me.
And it's such a simple, simple story.
(12:29):
And yet it's so powerful.
You have a main character, you have tension, you have a relatable character.
you have tension.
So again, these are the components.
They're very, very simple and every story can be kind of broken down into thosecomponents.
So you left Milwaukee and then went to Columbia for school and you stayed in New York fora few years before leaving and heading to temple to teach.
(13:01):
As you are going along your journey, can you tell me a little bit about how you...
made time to write and how you continued to hone your craft in becoming a stronger andbetter writer every day.
Yes, part of that answer is before I went to Smith College for undergraduate degree andafter I always knew I wanted to be a writer.
(13:30):
I in my dream was to be a novelist, but novelist doesn't come with a paycheck.
So I segue into journalism because journalists, they get paid.
But my college didn't have a journalism.
major and I didn't really commit to being a writer until I was in my final year ofcollege.
(13:50):
So when I graduated from Smith, I got a job in public relations and I hated it.
Like I hated it with a passion and I liken it to liking one man but marrying his brotherbecause you couldn't get him.
So public relations is media adjacent.
It's journalism adjacent.
You're doing similar work, but you're not a journalist and it's,
(14:13):
fundamentally different, but they're so close.
And I thought that it would be good enough, but it certainly wasn't.
And I felt like I was selling my soul to the devil by working for publicists, working as apublicist rather than as a journalist.
And I say that because when I decided to go to journalism school to get my master's degreein journalism, first I had to take out loans to go.
(14:37):
um Everybody says you don't need a master's degree to be a journalist.
I mean, this was a choice that I made to really define myself as a journalist going toColumbia.
But it was like, the decision was so serious in my mind that this is what I wanted to do.
I wanted to be a writer.
This was how I was gonna get myself there.
That it's like, if you can imagine Scarlett O'Hara, you know, at the end of the book,after all, tomorrow's another day, by God, this will never happen again.
(15:06):
I was like standing.
you know, on the Brooklyn Bridge saying, you know, I will never be a publicist again.
I will be a journalist.
I will write.
This is my calling.
This is my truth.
And so I took that very seriously.
And when I graduated from Columbia, everybody, all my professors said, well, now you haveto go to the Midwest and find a job at a medium market.
(15:28):
And then you can make your way back to a major market like New York or to And I was like,oh, uh-uh, I'm from Wisconsin.
You cannot make me go back there.
I am here, I'm not leaving.
And that was really my attitude since I graduated until now is I will find a way to dowhat I want to do, what I love and what I have promised myself, which is to be a writer.
(15:51):
So when I graduated, I had a job working at Vibe magazine before I even graduated.
I got the job secured a couple of days before graduation.
When I got pregnant for the first time, I was working happily at Entertainment Weekly.
And I remember I met this woman on the playground, I'm like eight and a half monthspregnant, and she's like, well, you know you can't be a mother and a writer.
It's impossible.
(16:12):
Like she literally said, it's impossible.
And I was like, really?
Watch me.
It was the very idea that I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do was the impetus Ineeded to say, but I will.
Because you say it's impossible, I rebuke that idea.
(16:33):
The one thing, there was two things I always said I wanted to be, which was a writer and amother.
So again, it's like when you have a clear purpose in your life and you have this visionfor yourself, I don't think it's hard to, I mean, I don't wanna say like it's easy, but it
just is.
You don't give yourself alternatives.
(16:55):
There wasn't something else I wanted so badly or equally.
I couldn't think of what else I would want to do besides be a writer.
So I just stayed doing it in any way I could.
Laurie, I'm curious, how does your purpose feel in your body?
And I can tell you how it feels in mine.
But I guess as I was hearing you, was thinking about what that woman said.
(17:18):
And I think about how it's been proven over and over again.
There are lots of women who have children who do write, and it looks very different forthem.
But obviously, it comes with some, I don't want to say sacrifices, choices, I guess youhave to make.
but I'd love to hear about how your purpose feels in your body, particularly when you'revibing and you're living in your purpose versus how it feels when you are going against
(17:46):
it.
That's a great question.
So a lot of writers use this term, like being in flow and where like the writing is comingreally easily.
I feel almost tingly inside, if you will.
And I, you know, they say that Americans like our worst, the thing that's going to kill usis not smoking.
(18:10):
It's like sitting.
I could sit for hours.
if I'm writing and I'm in flow and I know what I'm doing is great.
And it just feels good and I don't have any problem with it.
I'm like, my gosh, it's two o'clock in the morning.
Why am I still sitting at my desk?
And again, the stories, the words, they just flow.
And I feel lucky that, you know, that happens for me when I'm writing a blog post aboutlike an opinion piece or something I'm just excited to write about.
(18:38):
It helps, it happens for me when I'm working on a novel that
nobody makes you write a novel.
Like I've never been contracted to write a novel.
So any novel I'm working on, for the most part, I'm excited about it.
And so again, it's like a joy.
literally, I wrote myself a little sign for my door.
It says Lori's writing workshop.
(18:59):
And when I come into my office, that's what I feel like.
I'm like, I'm coming to do.
I love it.
Now, on the other hand, do get, I mean, I have to make a living.
And so sometimes I write for other people.
I do ghost writing.
Sometimes I'm just, you know, writing articles for publications.
And that feels like sometimes that can feel like torture.
(19:24):
I mean, it can literally feel like almost like having a rash, like something like aburning frustration and anger because you're using your gifts.
for something that you don't believe in.
It's like, it would be asking a superhero to work for the dark side.
And that's how I feel when I'm using my gifts.
(19:45):
And I do believe that my ability to write is a gift.
So if I'm using it for something that doesn't fulfill me or satisfy me or feels like it's,again, it's just transactional.
It's almost like a burning in my stomach.
It's an uncomfortable feeling and I just can't wait to like put it aside and get back tothe writing that fulfills me, that lights me up.
(20:08):
It seems like you sometimes go against convention.
mean, you said to this woman, well, perhaps you didn't say it out loud, but perhaps yousaid it to yourself that watch me, I'm going to do it.
But the other thing that you did as well is that you became a professor, a tenuredprofessor at Temple University, and you decided to kind of switch tracks at that time.
(20:35):
Can you tell me about that story?
Sorry, you're referring to me becoming a professor, like going into academia as theswitching tracks?
No, I guess I'm talking about, well, I guess, yeah, you have several tracks that youswitched in your career.
So you left journalism, you became, you left journalism and started teaching and you thengot tenure and then you left teaching.
(21:06):
Well, technically you didn't leave teaching.
You left university life, you left academia and
move to Spain.
So you've changed tracks several times.
Yes, I mean, yes and no, because essentially I've been a writer all along.
I've just changed platforms, if you will, or institutions.
(21:28):
when I, you know, the move into academia was precipitated by my move leaving New York Cityand moving to Philadelphia.
So at the time, New York City was the epicenter of magazine journalism, which is what Ispecialized in.
And so I knew
I couldn't maintain that if I was living in Philadelphia.
(21:51):
So academia became the way for me to have a steady paycheck while I was a new mom to twoand then three children.
But it also allowed me, gave me the security that I could then write without working as afreelancer and wondering and being forced to write, again, just in a transactional way so
(22:14):
I could be a lot more selective.
about the types of things I wrote.
So I wrote my first book, Hair Story, while I still worked in magazine journalism in NewYork City.
My second book, Kingi Gazpacho, was a memoir.
I was still in New York when I wrote that.
So I was actually working on my first novel when I entered academia, which again, youdon't get paid to write novels.
(22:36):
So it was actually very convenient that I had this full-time job and I could write also atthe same time.
Academia allowed me to, again, to teach, which I really enjoyed, but also to, again,pursue the writing projects that I wanted to without worrying about the financial gain or
(22:57):
loss that I might take in pursuing projects that moved me.
And because the things that moved me usually had to do with black people and other peopleof color, race, and identity, they weren't necessarily big money makers.
I wasn't writing books that I knew were gonna be
bestsellers, for example, but I would know that they were important.
(23:19):
having the academic job allowed me to do that.
And then when I moved to Spain, we moved to Spain in 2021 in the middle of the pandemicduring the Black Lives Matter 2.0 movement, as I call after the murder of George Floyd.
And that was, again, precipitated by knowing that I always want it to be a globalliterary, like to have this global literary life that was always
(23:45):
in my journals writing about it.
Like that was my dream.
In fact, I became a writer with this idea that I could live anywhere in the world if I'm awriter.
And so after at that time, when the world felt like it was ending in a lot of ways, Ithought if I don't make this move now, if I don't take this leap of faith now, I mean, I
(24:08):
don't have tomorrow for sure.
Like, again, it sounds cliche, but I feel like 2020, 2021 proved.
that tomorrow is not promised.
And so at that point, I had started ghost writing and I continued to write books formyself and still did freelance writing and was able to financially prove to myself that I
(24:30):
didn't need academia anymore as that safety net, which it had been for the majority of mychildren's lives, their young lives, so to speak.
And so the move to Spain and launching Read, Write and Create
which like you said, I'm still teaching, but it allowed me to recenter my creative writinginstead of having the kind of academic overlord, if you will, kind of dictating the
(24:58):
majority of my time because yes, I was still able to write, but it had to be in the cracksand crevices of other finding that time in between my academic responsibilities.
And now I can again center.
the things that light me up the most, my creative work, and also helping other writersbring their visions, their literary visions, to life as well.
(25:21):
So it's always about the writing, but being a mother as well and having to have thatpractical angle to it, I have moved around knowing, I think always in the back of my mind
though, that a writer's life shouldn't look like one thing.
I mean, I don't want to be
writing the same thing I was writing 20 years ago.
(25:43):
If I'm not evolving, then this writer's life that I selected wouldn't live up to the dreambecause that was one of the fundamental things that made writing so attractive to me is
that you never know what's coming next.
And you can always be trying different things, nonfiction, fiction, short stories, novels,movie screenplays, anything is possible.
(26:05):
yeah, I feel like my career has evolved exactly as it was meant to.
As you were chatting and you have a full life, kids, dog, the whole thing, when you wereteaching, when you were at Temple, how did you find time to write that was at least to
(26:26):
write outside of your duties as a professor?
Well, I mean, obviously we have summers, which is again, one of the benefits of working inacademia.
Although there always seems to be something, you know, teaching a summer course, having todo research or other things that are required.
So it always seems like you're a lot done over the summers and it's never quite as muchtime as you think.
(26:51):
But regardless, you do have your summers.
And also in order to get tenure and to keep my job, I had to write.
Like there's no choice.
And so that's the thing, like one of the reasons that I feel like I'm a good book coachand champion for other writers is I really don't let people make excuses because we, if
(27:13):
you wanna do something, you just do it.
You make the time.
I did a whole podcast episode about that.
You're never gonna find the time, cause it's not there and you can't manufacture time.
You have to make the time in your schedule for the things that you prioritize, the thingsthat are important to you.
And one of the reasons on my podcast, the Read, Write, Create podcast, the reason that Ialways tell stories about our literary ancestors is because whatever troubles we're having
(27:39):
right now as writers, like we can't find the time, we can't figure out how to get thisdone.
Look at our literary ancestors, look at Phyllis Wheatley.
She was enslaved when she wrote her first book of poetry as an enslaved woman who got thefirst book by an African American published.
And again, she was enslaved.
(28:00):
She was kind of busy.
So what is your excuse?
When I look at all of our literary ancestors who found the time, uh made a way, were ableto overcome the fact that women weren't even allowed, like third class citizens, black
women were fourth class citizens.
So that is where I get the inspiration.
(28:21):
And I just don't allow myself to have excuses to say, it's not possible.
I don't have time.
Children were super young.
Sometimes, I I had very little money because at that point I was a freelance writer.
My husband is a teacher, like never made a lot of money.
But I took the little bit of money I had and I hired a babysitter for my second son, myelder son.
(28:43):
He was three.
The baby was a month or two.
No, he was, guess, six or seven months old.
But regardless, I hired a babysitter for like four hours a week.
That's what I could afford.
So...
When the babysitter was available, had my baby for those four hours, I would go to a cafe,because New York City apartments were teeny, so there was no place for me to be writing.
(29:03):
I would just go to a cafe, take my computer, and that's how I wrote my novel.
Four hours per week.
And if that's all I had, that's what I did.
And that's why I say that actually mothers are really efficient writers, because if youlearn, look, the baby sleep, that's when you're gonna write.
When you have all the time in the world, you tend to waste it.
So there's no secret.
There's absolutely no secret except the mindset shift that if this is something that'simportant to you, you will make the time to do what you have to do.
(29:31):
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
The reason why I started my sub stack newsletter, Creative Matters, is because once I waslooking at how much time I was spending on social media, and in one week I spent two hours
on Instagram and on YouTube.
And then at that point, Lori, I was complaining how I had no time, blah, blah, blah, I waslike, you need to tell me I found two hours somehow.
(30:01):
to give my time away to someone else.
And so that's why I took it back.
And I was like, okay, well, then we're going to figure this thing out.
And we know that routinely the way that we have to, we have to work in the way, if we wantto get anything done, we just have to be focused.
Like you said, we have to live in our purpose and we just have to do it rather thancomplaining about how we want to do it.
(30:29):
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.
And I'm not suggesting that it's easy.
And people will say, oh, if you want to be a writer, if you want to be a creative, youhave to be on social media, you have to do marketing, you don't tell people what you're
doing or promote your work.
And so it really is this, it's a mind fuck.
Like you just don't know where you should be spending your time because you want to getthat book deal.
(30:54):
And the first thing people ask is, well, how many followers do you have?
Do you have a platform?
And so that struggle is real.
That's why I'm saying I don't want to diminish this idea that, yeah, you just ignore theworld, do what you have to do, because there are other concerns.
But what I always tell my writers in the sanctuary is it doesn't matter if you have aplatform, if you have no book.
(31:20):
So it's about when you do these things, right?
So it is impossible.
I mean, you have a limited amount of time.
Does that mean you should like work on your book for an hour and then work on social mediafor an hour?
I don't believe so.
I think you should work on your book, get your book written because there's a lot of timesif you're working on a book or if you're working on a longer form project, but there's a
(31:41):
lot of in between times when you're working on a long form project.
So for example, you're writing a book, you're writing a novel, for example, or anynonfiction manuscript doesn't matter, but a long form project, you have to write it.
and then put it away for a moment and kind of rest.
Well, while you're resting, go work on your social media stuff.
Go work on your platform at that point.
(32:03):
And then you gotta pick it up again, work on your second draft.
And then when that second draft is with a beta reader, for example, guess what you can bedoing?
Working on that social media stuff.
And then there's, again, so there's lots of kind of ebbs and flows of this creativeprocess where you aren't actually writing all the time, but when you are writing, be
writing.
(32:23):
and also recognize again that having a platform isn't really a, there's no point if youdon't have the product.
The product is what's really important.
And at the end of the day, if that product is good enough, not that it'll sell itself,cause it won't.
I mean, let's be honest, it won't, but it will give you a leg up if you have that greatproduct.
(32:47):
And then you can start working on the audience and the social media and all thatextraneous stuff.
So remember, keep your eyes on what's important, which is the writing, the creativeproduct, whatever it might be.
then, and because only you can do that also, you can always hire somebody.
if worse, I hire my 13 year old to do a lot of my social media, you know, things likethat.
(33:09):
But you really can, you can hire somebody to do the other stuff, but the creative output,that can only come from you.
And so that's, know, if you have limited time, that's what I always tell my writers, focuson the product.
do the other stuff as, you know, once the cake is baked, then you can come and worry aboutthe frosting and the decorations.
(33:30):
Well, let's talk about sanctuary and let's talk about writing.
I was telling my husband yesterday how excited I am for when sanctuary opens again becauseI'm joining.
I created the outline and I'm in the process of writing the first two chapters of what Ihope will be my book.
(33:50):
But we never know, you know, like when you go into writing a book or when you go intowriting, you start one thing and then you realize, no, it really is something else.
oh
It is always a journey, so I'm really excited to learn from you.
But tell us a little bit about Sanctuary, because then I have some other questions thatI'm sure people will want to know about how to become a stronger writer.
(34:13):
Sure, absolutely.
And I have to just say really quickly that that's actually the best attitude you can have,Martina, about writing.
And that's something I used to teach my journalism students because it was reallyimportant.
But any writer who embarks on a project, you have an idea, but you have to be open to thefact that this idea could morph into something completely different once you get into it.
And when you're too wedded to what it was supposed to be, you can find the experience tobe very unpleasant because it's like working where there's a wall and you just...
(34:41):
can't get through it because you're not allowing the project to evolve and develop intowhat it needs to be.
So that's just something that I wanted to comment that you have the perfect attitude aboutit is where is it going to take me?
Where is this journey going to take me?
So the sanctuary is something that, yes, I've always wanted to be a writer, but I'mnaturally a community builder.
That's just something that I am.
(35:02):
I just naturally do.
I am the person who, random people in a room, and I'll be like, we should start a group,you guys.
Like, there should be a group.
You, you and you, let's come on, let's do something, let's have a club, let's have acommunity.
I actually got in trouble in third grade.
That just reminded me how far back this goes because I was like, three of my friends, Iwas like, we should start our own club called the Four-Colored Rainbow.
(35:27):
I don't know why, because they were all white, but I still was like, we should be calledthe Four-Colored Rainbow.
I had a logo for us.
had a little like, I had it all worked out.
And then one of this.
another little girl's mom called and said her daughter felt left out because she wasn'tpart of the four colored rainbow.
But the point is, was always coming, like putting people in groups, creating community,something I've always done.
(35:50):
And as writers, particularly, this is so important because writing is a solitary job andit's a long job.
It's a long process to go from idea to book being out in the world.
And something that I've actually
become an evangelist about is how important it is for people to write in community.
(36:14):
And I'm gonna take that up another notch, two other notches, how important it is for womento write in community and how important it is for BIPOC women to write in community.
Why?
Because BIPOC women are the least represented people in the mainstream book industry.
And yet we're the ones that buy the most books, fun fact.
So we need the support.
(36:36):
plain and simple.
Like even if we're just talking about for business advice, we need the support.
But it goes so much deeper than that.
When you write in community, there are research studies that prove that women who write incommunity are more prolific, more productive, feel more confident about their work, and
their work actually improves.
(36:56):
Like their craft improves when they work in community.
So from like, I don't have to say anything else about why I created the community.
with just those facts, right?
But more importantly, there's such a myth that writing should be something that you do byyourself, that there's some sort of extra prize for sitting in your attic, toiling away at
(37:18):
your typewriter, never coming out for air, never changing your clothes, just like thissuffering writer who does everything by themselves.
again,
when you look at the most successful writers, all of them have a support system.
Most of them had communities.
And not like a dirty little secret, but it's not really talked about that our favoritewriters have these support systems in place.
(37:43):
And again, because women writers and women of color writers in particular are so oftenoverlooked for great work, we'd need that extra layer of defense and support and
I mean, and that support is everything from financial support.
So in the sanctuary, we provide resources for our writers to apply for grants, contests,open submission calls that are not specifically for BIPOC women, but that we vet them to
(38:14):
make sure that these are opportunities that women of color would be good for.
But also even just, and that craft advice, we do workshops, writing workshops, craftworkshops, generative workshops.
But also we really talk about
platform and promoting your work and how do you get your work out and seen by the rightpeople.
So we say that we help writers with the entire life cycle of their writing career becauseit's not just about getting the work done or becoming a better quote unquote writer.
(38:43):
We want women writers to have the entirety of a writing career.
So write the book, sell the book, promote the book, become a best seller and repeat.
We believe, like our ethos in the sanctuary is that BIPOC women writers are the women, arethe people who are going to write the stories that change the world.
And so whatever support we can give each other, and of course, just being in communitywith one another, we see collaboration happening.
(39:11):
We see support happening.
have accountability partners.
Like we share not just physical resources, but mental resources, emotional resources foreach other.
And it's incredible to see
even just doing co-writing sessions where I have to get up at 6 a.m.
if I'm gonna get this book done.
You talked about when do you find the time?
(39:32):
Well, sometimes it means getting up at six.
Some of our writers are in the Midwest, so it's five for them, but they're there becausethey know everybody else is there and they're gonna get that novel written.
They're gonna get that memoir written.
And we have feedback circles once a month for different genres.
So again, you're not doing it alone.
Someone's gonna tap you on your virtual shoulder.
(39:54):
Hey, you said you were gonna get your memoir done.
You said you're gonna have your chapter.
What happened to it?
And when you win that prize or get the agent, we are all cheering for you.
And that's the other thing, like regular people, you know this, Martine, because creativesare our own special bunch.
Regular people are not gonna be like, you got an agent, girl?
Good Lord, congratulations.
(40:15):
They're gonna be like, I guess that's good, right?
Or I finished this chapter.
Nobody cares except other writers.
I've been working for months and I finally got the chapter right.
I got the wording right.
Nobody cares in your regular life.
And that's also, it can be depressing when you put all this time and energy getting up at6 a.m.
toiling away on this thing.
(40:37):
Nobody cares except other writers.
So you want to be with your people and that's what the sanctuary is.
It's one big love fest of BIPOC women writers, like supporting one another, loving on eachother.
and it's a virtual community, so we have members from all over the United States, and nowwe have quite a few members in Europe and the UK as well.
(40:58):
And on my recent visit to the United States, we did some in-person meetups, so now we'veseen each other in real life, and we want people to keep on meeting up.
I I haven't been to Atlanta, but we've got a bunch of people in Atlanta.
They meet up on their own, so we're just really trying to foster this strong community ofBIPOC women writers.
(41:18):
so that we can take over the world.
I think you're so right because sometimes we'll see a book that someone has published andall of a sudden we think, that person did do it on their own.
But every single writer who has been on this podcast talks about their community.
They talk about the person that helps them think about the character development orsomebody who will read the first draft for them and say, this section here, it's pretty
(41:49):
whack.
or someone who will just help them think through ideas.
We don't go through this world alone.
We need each other and we need the help.
Could you tell me a little bit about how you see people change as they've gone throughsanctuary in terms of their skill, their writing skill, or at least maybe you could talk
(42:13):
about some of the common lessons that you see people learn as they go through sanctuaryand are
sharpening their skill as a writer.
To be honest, think the most common benefit that people get and that they're so surprisedabout really is this idea that their writing practice improves in community.
(42:38):
So we have people come in who are like, I haven't written, I don't have a regular writingpractice.
haven't, you know, I write once in a blue moon, but since I started in the sanctuary, likeI finished an entire draft of my novel.
and the sanctuary has only been open for a year.
And it's because the idea of having this form of accountability, having, we call eachother sister-scribes in the sanctuary, I cannot overstate how important regularity to a
(43:07):
writing practice is.
It's just like being an athlete.
If you don't write on a regular basis, then you are not gonna improve.
So you could be the most talented writer in the world, but if you don't write regularly,your craft does not improve.
if you write regularly, every single time you write, you are going to strengthen thatwriting muscle.
(43:30):
so, for example, we have co-writing sessions almost every day of the week, but we alsohave generative writing sessions once a month.
And we try different techniques and we share different ways that you can look at yourwriting, practice writing.
We did a workshop on
using music to create your characters.
(43:51):
It's a very interesting process.
But we also did a workshop on using poetry to make, to become a better prose writer.
So when you come to the workshops and you're practicing these different things, andthat's, it's the idea of regular practice.
So the first Saturday of every month, we have these kind of creative writing workshops,and we have the co-writing sessions almost every day of the week.
(44:15):
And so what you have is that people come in,
not having a practice.
They call themselves a writer or they want to write a book, but they don't have a writingpractice.
And that's what we teach our writers to do.
It's like joining a gym.
I always say the sanctuary is like a combination of a house of worship and a gym.
We keep you inspired and in shape so that you can get the work done that you want to getdone.
(44:38):
And people don't think about writing that way.
They're like, oh, I want to write a book.
And they like, 2025 is going to be the year I write my book.
with no practice, it'd be like saying, I'm gonna run a marathon in 2025.
Well, what have you done to get in shape?
What have you done to strengthen your muscles so that you could actually run a marathon?
(44:58):
Again, we don't teach people how to write.
Like the sanctuary is not for the person who's never really taken any kind of writingclasses, has never really practiced their writing.
And they're like, oh, that sounds like fun.
No offense, like it's not about that.
It's, but we can't help you.
You have to know how to write.
You just don't have a solid writing practice.
And we firmly believe, like any other skill, you can always improve.
(45:23):
I I've written seven books, but I still take writing classes.
I still participate in the workshops if I'm not teaching them.
I still always look for opportunities to go to writing retreats where I'm not justwriting, but learning something new because I don't know everything.
I mean, I still
I at poetry, but would love to become a better poet.
(45:48):
Would like to learn how to be more efficient with my words like poets are, right?
So that is what we do, I think, really well in the sanctuary, which is to help peopleunderstand what it means to have a writing practice.
And when you have a writing practice, you will be amazed at how much better you become asa writer.
(46:09):
And again, I keep using the sports metaphors, but it's like,
When you take a runner or a swimmer, any other kind of like endurance athlete, and youmake them work out in the gym a little bit and make their muscles stronger, they're like,
my gosh, swimming is so much easier now that my muscles are stronger.
my gosh, I can run faster and farther now that I've done a little strength training on mylegs.
(46:34):
It's the same idea in, not everybody, but many people don't recognize how important thatkind of regular practice is.
to elevating your writing.
So what does a writing practice look like?
uh Okay, that's a very good question.
So many people are like, if you don't write every day, you can't be a writer.
(46:54):
I think that puts a lot of people off because with their busy lives, they can't even thinkabout how they could possibly write every day.
A writing practice though requires regularity.
It requires, this is when I write on a regular basis.
So maybe it's Mondays from seven in the morning till eight in the morning.
(47:15):
Every Monday, that's what you do.
You're in the same place and you do it.
If you can do every day, Monday through Friday, then that's what you do.
Maybe you're a weekend writer.
Saturdays and Sundays, you dedicate three hours per day.
That's what your practice looks like.
Now, what else is involved in a writing practice?
(47:37):
Reading.
People don't understand.
That's why the sanctuary is part of the umbrella of my overall brand, which is Read,Write, and Create.
A writing practice isn't just the writing.
There's thinking, there's reading, and there's other creating, which is why I love yourpodcast, Martín, because creative people tend to have multiple mediums that they display
(48:03):
their creativity in.
We just had Ingrid Rojas Contreras visit us in the sanctuary.
She wrote the memoir, The Man Who Could Move Clouds, beautiful memoir.
We have a book club because we read.
And the book club is the read like a writer book club.
And so when we have our meetings, we talk about craft as much as we talk about story,about the book.
(48:28):
And sometimes the author comes.
So Ingrid came and she was talking about her process for writing this incredible memoir.
And somebody asked her about how she chose the structure for the book.
And she said, well, I was taking a basket weaving class at the time.
And while I was writing, just felt like I needed to take a basket weaving class.
(48:48):
And she discovered that kind of the structure of the weaving led her to the structure shewanted to use for laying out her story, which was fascinating.
But that's why I always tell my writers to figure out like what other creative outletsmight you use or pursue, not like to be a professional or anything, but literally just to
(49:12):
allowed the creative self be in practice to then inspire or impact or influence yourwriting.
It's incredible.
So the writing practice means that you have reading, creating, and writing incorporatedinto your life, and then it becomes a practice.
(49:34):
Oh boy.
I was listening to one of your episodes where you were talking about like how you need toread to write.
And I was like, oh, this is exactly what I've been doing because there are some people,some writers that I love because the prose is so, so spectacular.
And I don't know where I found this, but one person was saying sometimes if you want tostrengthen your muscles a little bit, you could literally
(50:02):
choose a passage from a book and just type it out so that as you're typing it out, there'ssomething about seeing and then transferring it through touch that embeds it in your mind
in a different way than you might ever think that it could be, you know, just a little bitdifferent.
But I'm finding that, you know, I'm doing a lot more reading on writing right now, whichis kind of, it's super meta.
(50:30):
but really interesting as well because it makes me think about what am I trying toaccomplish in this paragraph?
What am I trying to accomplish in this sentence?
What am I trying to accomplish through using this comma?
And it's all of these things that I, you know, I write, but I never really think aboutwhat I'm writing.
(50:50):
I think about, okay, so how can I engage, but not necessarily how can I write in order tomake sure that
what I'm writing is indigene.
It's been just really fascinating to learn about writing.
Yeah, I mean, and that's what I mean also that like learning how to be a good writer,Yo-Yo Ma still practices his cello.
(51:14):
Like he doesn't just like chill and then go give a concert, right?
He is constantly improving, which you'd think, well, Yo-Yo Ma kind of, I think he knowswhat he's doing by now, but he still wants to be better.
And writers, we still want to be better.
There's so many different things to study, so many different styles.
So many different techniques that people use when you read it, you're like, whoa, that'sreally cool.
(51:38):
Now, the first time you read it, you might just be engaged in the story.
But then when you go back, because maybe the story just, there was a whodunit, maybe therewas something that you're like, I just feel so sad.
How did the writer get me to feel this?
Or how did the writer hook me into the story that I couldn't put it down?
You go back and ask yourself, what was happening on the page on the line level?
(52:02):
Is it the way that they structured the paragraphs?
Is it the fact that they had short chapters?
Or they had long chapters?
Or each one chapter was long, one was short.
You go back and dissect the structure of the book, the line level, the words they used,and you can learn so much by the response you had to the work.
And that's really what we're doing when we're reading, and that's why reading is soimportant as writers.
(52:25):
That's lovely.
Well, Lori, as we wrap up, I would love for you to tell me about a book or a concept thathas significantly shaped your outlook on life.
Hmm.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I am in my early 50s, so I've lived a lot of life.
(52:48):
And I've had, at certain points in my life, there was different messaging that wassignificant to me.
But right now, at this stage in my life, I am truly, I call myself a storytellingevangelist, but it is almost magical how this concept keeps coming up in my life.
(53:08):
And when I say storytelling evangelist, I mean that I
preach the gospel of storytelling as a powerful form for social change.
That storytelling ruined the world, but storytelling can save the world.
Storytelling is a buzzword right now.
They're teaching storytelling in business schools.
Their storytelling is now the big marketing buzzword where, your company's story.
(53:33):
Everybody connects to stories, but it's true.
Everybody does connect to stories.
They connect to stories more than they connect to
facts and figures and profit and loss forms that you could talk about for your company.
But I look at storytelling as, it's like, since I moved to Spain and I've dedicated mylife to my own creative storytelling output, but also supporting other storytellers and
(54:02):
doing it with a strong manifesto and a really strong sense of purpose.
I don't just work with BIPOC women writers because I like them.
I really believe that the world we live in was shaped by the storytelling of white men forthe most part.
I mean, that's what white supremacy is all about.
(54:24):
It was this creation story meant to keep white men at the top of the food chain, right?
And it's just a story.
That concept of white supremacy is a fairy tale.
Literally, I say it's a grim fairy tale told by an unreliable narrator.
That's what white supremacy is.
And so we need new stories.
We need new narratives.
(54:45):
And who should tell those stories but the people who have had their voices silenced?
People of the global majority, particularly women, because the melanin and then our genderhas kept us labeled as the stories that we tell as unimportant.
Chinua Achebe said that until the lion learns to write, all stories will glorify thehunter.
(55:09):
And so my mission with the sanctuary is to get all these writers, get all these lionswriting, right?
Telling these stories so that we can stop glorifying the hunter and change the narrativethat we all live by.
My impetus, my inspiration to write is to do the same thing.
I want to tell stories that will change people's lives by making them think differentlyabout what's possible and where they came from, okay?
(55:36):
So.
That's what I live by now.
really, really believe, like when I call myself a storytelling evangelist, it's not just acatchy title.
It's very long and it's very, and if you say it over and over again, it's, you know, itgets stuck on your tongue.
But I really am saying that because I truly believe that storytelling will save the world.
So, and when I say it's kind of magical, it just keeps popping up in different ways toreinforce this belief that I am on the right track and that what I'm doing
(56:07):
is important.
It seems like the perfect place to stop, Lori.
Wow.
That was great.
Thank you so much, Laurie, for coming on the show.
I really enjoyed chatting with you and I feel like your podcast always leaves me peppedup.
(56:29):
Like I just feel like it gives me a little zing that I needed to get myself into gear.
I can't wait to be part of Sanctuary and I can't wait to learn more from you and I knowthat as
our listeners are listening to this episode that they will be, they have a lot ofquestions to ask themselves as to what they want out of their lives and what story are
(56:55):
they telling with their actions and through their creativity and their creative life.
Well, thank you, Weren'tine, and I appreciate this opportunity to talk to other creativepeople.
And if people do want to join the sanctuary, they can find every bit of information aboutit on the Read, Write, and Create website, is R-E-E-D, writeandcreate.com.
(57:22):
there.
I have a quick favor to ask you before you go.
If you're loving this show, would you mind taking a quick second to leave us a five-starreview on your favorite go-to podcast app?
Here's the thing.
Those reviews are like magic fairy dust.
They help other creatives of color discover our show and tap into their own artisticsuperpowers.
(57:47):
While you're at it,
Why not subscribe to our sub stack newsletter Creative Matters?
Creative Matters is like a weekly dose of inspiration delivered straight to your inbox.
You can find the link to subscribe in the show notes.
All right, that's all that I have for you today.
(58:08):
I can't wait to see you on the next episode.
Bye.
Hi, this is Lori L.
Farbs and this is how I create.
Welcome to This is How We Create, a show that digs deeper into the creative life ofcontemporary artists of color.
Discover what feeds their creativity and how they've found or are finding their artisticvoice.
Through these intimate and candid conversations, you'll gain insights into the lives ofcreative professionals of color that are hard to find anywhere else.
(00:27):
Welcome back to This Is How We Create.
My name is Martine Severin, your host.
Today, we have Lori L.
Tharps on the show.
In a world where stories shape our understanding of reality, some voices have remainedpersistently unheard.
And today we're joined by Lori L.
Tharps, a writer who's dedicated her life to changing that narrative.
(00:49):
From her early days as a journalist at Entertainment Weekly in Essence to becoming atenured professor
At Temple University, Lori has consistently broken new grounds in storytelling.
But perhaps her most dramatic chapter began in 2021 when she left her established life inAmerica to start anew in Southern Spain.
(01:11):
There, she launched Read, Write, and Create, a platform and podcast supporting womenwriters of color.
Her latest venture, The Sanctuary, provides a space for BIPOC women writers
to nurture their craft and build sustainable careers.
Tharves, whose work includes the acclaimed book, Hair Story, Untangling the Roots of BlackHair in America, and collaborations on the redemption of Bobby Love, joins us today to
(01:42):
discuss her journey from that first Remington typewriter to becoming a champion fordiverse voices in literature.
Laurie, it is so much.
I'm looking forward to this so much.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me, Martine.
I'm so excited to be here.
(02:02):
So I don't always get a chance to meet my guest first, but you and I met at Afros andAudio, a podcast conference in Baltimore just this year.
And it's so fun because I had stumbled upon your work and didn't really know it.
And you had stumbled upon my work and I didn't know that you had stumbled upon my work.
(02:25):
So it was just like a really lovely coming together.
We will start the podcast.
going back to your childhood memories.
Could you share with us your childhood memories of growing up in Wisconsin?
And can you tell us about any exposure that you had to creativity and to the arts and howthat might have influenced your journey into writing, into the work that you do today?
(02:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's really funny because I was just in New York City and I was staying with mychildhood best friend.
um Her name is Miko and I was just commenting to her because I was with my daughter andshe has a son who's about the same age as my daughter.
And we were saying, oh, our children have to become best friends as well since we werechildhood best friends.
(03:18):
And I was trying to explain to my daughter why
our relationship, mine and my friend Miko's, was so important.
And I realize it's because our friendship really, I feel, introduced me to this idea ofcreativity and reading in a very specific way.
And ironically, Miko grew up, she designs books and I write books.
(03:42):
So it's like the friendship.
And the influence of books and reading and art is obviously very strong.
It wasn't just for me.
So growing up in Wisconsin, often felt that I was, because I was often the only blackperson in the mostly white spaces that I inhabited in my neighborhood, in my school, I was
(04:03):
a swimmer.
everything I did seemed to be very white.
And because Milwaukee, where the city I grew up in is a very segregated city,
and we happened to live in the white parts of the city, because it was also very, it's notjust racially segregated, but also very uh economically segregated.
So all that to say, they are the spaces that I were in were very white.
(04:25):
So Miko, my best friend from the time I was four years old, happened to be Japanese andIrish.
So her mom was Japanese and her Japanese American and her dad was Irish American.
And she was an only child and her...
parents would often want me to hang around because then their daughter would have somebodyto hang out with.
And both Miko's parents were artists as well.
(04:49):
And so they didn't have a television.
And when I would go over to play with Miko, we would most often either play some kind ofimaginative play with dress up or we would create these fantastical worlds.
Sometimes she did my hair.
That was her way of like, she liked to use my hair as sculpture material.
(05:11):
My mom would always say, don't let Niko play with your hair, because she would take outwhatever braids my mom had given me and play with my hair.
And we would read.
Again, no TV allowed in Niko's house.
So Niko introduced me to the love of reading.
So we would read, we would talk about the stories we read, we would make up our ownstories.
And Niko's parents would read to us as well.
(05:33):
So it was like reading and storytelling and imaginative.
even our Halloween costumes were so creative.
And Miko once made an entire outfit out of hefty trash bags.
like, I just like playing with her and being in their household where creativity wasreally praised and really honored.
(05:55):
just, as I look back on it, and again, because I just spent a lot of time with Miko this,you know, less than a month ago, I was really, really aware of how much their influence
had on me.
And also because Miko's mother was Japanese American, we ate a lot of Japanese food.
I learned some Japanese language.
So not to say that that was the entirety of what inspired me to be a writer, but it gaveme very early access to this idea of living a creative life and what that looked like in
(06:31):
kind of everyday terms.
So Miko was just my friend, her parents.
happened to be artists, I didn't think about it in those concrete terms.
I just saw what it was like to center reading and creative play and not using televisionas your main mode of entertainment.
So that was, feel like, a big influence on my quote unquote creativity.
(06:53):
And when it turned into writing for me was when my mother came home and she had found anantique Remington typewriter at a Remmage sale.
and that was something she liked to do for fun, was just go treasure hunting at rummagesales.
And she gave me that typewriter because she said that she knew I was a naturalstoryteller.
(07:15):
I told a lot of lies.
I would make up stories and lie about things all the time, but not like lies like, did youeat the last cookie?
I would lie about like, I would tell people I was an orphan or like that my parents diedin a fire or something like, I mean like ridiculous stories because I was deeply
influenced by like James and the Giant Peach and other stories where the children are allorphans.
(07:40):
And I'm like, well, I would like to have this dramatic story.
My dad thought there was like something deeply wrong with me that I was lying all thetime.
My mom saw me as a storyteller, so she bought me a typewriter.
So the...
The typewriter allowed me to take all these creative ideas I had in my head.
And I think some of my creativity was also born of this desire of escapism because I wasattracted to people who were different because I was different.
(08:09):
So that's why I loved being with Miko's family because everything about their life wasvery different, culturally different.
And then the artistic part was also different.
And I just gravitated towards other, otherness, difference.
And so I could write all these crazy ideas and stories down with my typewriter and makewhat was in my head manifest on the page.
(08:32):
And that to me was really exciting.
And also I had, again, the flair for the dramatic, call it lies, call it storyteller, butI liked an audience.
So I often started out writing plays and then performing them and forcing my cousins, Ihad lots of cousins, to perform the plays that I wrote.
(08:54):
But I was like Tyler Perry before Tyler Perry.
I was like, I starred, wrote, directed, costume designer.
And I even would, of course, print programs listing all of my accomplishments.
I would mention my cousins who were the actors, but I also mentioned everything else thatwas done by me.
So I loved an audience.
(09:14):
I did love an audience.
And I was in theater a lot too.
So that's where my creative childhood was.
And as much as I, you know,
don't have a lot of love for Milwaukee because of its lack of diversity in some ways, Iwas able to explore all of my creative interests.
I did theater, I did little writing courses, I did stand-up comedy.
(09:39):
So all of the things that were interesting to me, I was able to pursue them from a prettyearly age, and I am grateful for that.
So you teach writing, but more specifically, you are the queen of what makes a good story.
That's how I know you.
Can you tell us about how even that early on, how you came to understand what makes areally good story?
(10:09):
Sure.
So, again, because I was often writing for an audience, right?
Like, I often performed my stories, whether it was a straight play or I was maybe justreading the story aloud, I was able to see what people liked, right?
And I spoke to a, um I interviewed an author, E.B.
(10:30):
Zoboi, who spoke about this as well, where she said she actually got her start, she's anovelist, but she actually
got her start in spoken word poetry.
And she's like, the best way to see how your words hit is to perform them, right?
It's like, right, you get that automatic response when the audience responds to this, theysigh, they clap, they laugh.
(10:57):
And she's like, that's a really powerful way to know that you're a writer, to know thatyou know how to manipulate words to strike or to get a response from your audience.
And so I think a lot of writers, whether they're storytellers or writers, don't realizehow powerful it is to have that immediate feedback because then it can help you understand
(11:19):
what moves people, right?
What are the elements in a story that move people?
And again, most stories are written to be heard or to be read by other people.
So I think what makes a good story is relatable characters,
who are doing something interesting.
remember, interesting is a very subjective word, and it's up to the storyteller to makethe something interesting, right?
(11:47):
So, relatable characters doing something interesting and some kind of tension in thestory.
So the tension, you know, if it's a thriller, mean, the tension is, the main charactergonna die?
But tension could also be, is attractive man gonna fall in love with the mousy?
It's librarian, right?
There's the tension.
(12:08):
Like, can it actually happen?
I mean, and you can eat a good storyteller can make tension in something as simple as willthe little boy appreciate the sacrifices that the apple tree made him, made for him, which
was, know, Shel Silverstein's book, The Giving Tree, which to this day guts me.
And it's such a simple, simple story.
(12:29):
And yet it's so powerful.
You have a main character, you have tension, you have a relatable character.
you have tension.
So again, these are the components.
They're very, very simple and every story can be kind of broken down into thosecomponents.
So you left Milwaukee and then went to Columbia for school and you stayed in New York fora few years before leaving and heading to temple to teach.
(13:01):
As you are going along your journey, can you tell me a little bit about how you...
made time to write and how you continued to hone your craft in becoming a stronger andbetter writer every day.
Yes, part of that answer is before I went to Smith College for undergraduate degree andafter I always knew I wanted to be a writer.
(13:30):
I in my dream was to be a novelist, but novelist doesn't come with a paycheck.
So I segue into journalism because journalists, they get paid.
But my college didn't have a journalism.
major and I didn't really commit to being a writer until I was in my final year ofcollege.
(13:50):
So when I graduated from Smith, I got a job in public relations and I hated it.
Like I hated it with a passion and I liken it to liking one man but marrying his brotherbecause you couldn't get him.
So public relations is media adjacent.
It's journalism adjacent.
You're doing similar work, but you're not a journalist and it's,
(14:13):
fundamentally different, but they're so close.
And I thought that it would be good enough, but it certainly wasn't.
And I felt like I was selling my soul to the devil by working for publicists, working as apublicist rather than as a journalist.
And I say that because when I decided to go to journalism school to get my master's degreein journalism, first I had to take out loans to go.
(14:37):
um Everybody says you don't need a master's degree to be a journalist.
I mean, this was a choice that I made to really define myself as a journalist going toColumbia.
But it was like, the decision was so serious in my mind that this is what I wanted to do.
I wanted to be a writer.
This was how I was gonna get myself there.
That it's like, if you can imagine Scarlett O'Hara, you know, at the end of the book,after all, tomorrow's another day, by God, this will never happen again.
(15:06):
I was like standing.
you know, on the Brooklyn Bridge saying, you know, I will never be a publicist again.
I will be a journalist.
I will write.
This is my calling.
This is my truth.
And so I took that very seriously.
And when I graduated from Columbia, everybody, all my professors said, well, now you haveto go to the Midwest and find a job at a medium market.
(15:28):
And then you can make your way back to a major market like New York or to And I was like,oh, uh-uh, I'm from Wisconsin.
You cannot make me go back there.
I am here, I'm not leaving.
And that was really my attitude since I graduated until now is I will find a way to dowhat I want to do, what I love and what I have promised myself, which is to be a writer.
(15:51):
So when I graduated, I had a job working at Vibe magazine before I even graduated.
I got the job secured a couple of days before graduation.
When I got pregnant for the first time, I was working happily at Entertainment Weekly.
And I remember I met this woman on the playground, I'm like eight and a half monthspregnant, and she's like, well, you know you can't be a mother and a writer.
It's impossible.
(16:12):
Like she literally said, it's impossible.
And I was like, really?
Watch me.
It was the very idea that I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do was the impetus Ineeded to say, but I will.
Because you say it's impossible, I rebuke that idea.
(16:33):
The one thing, there was two things I always said I wanted to be, which was a writer and amother.
So again, it's like when you have a clear purpose in your life and you have this visionfor yourself, I don't think it's hard to, I mean, I don't wanna say like it's easy, but it
just is.
You don't give yourself alternatives.
(16:55):
There wasn't something else I wanted so badly or equally.
I couldn't think of what else I would want to do besides be a writer.
So I just stayed doing it in any way I could.
Laurie, I'm curious, how does your purpose feel in your body?
And I can tell you how it feels in mine.
But I guess as I was hearing you, was thinking about what that woman said.
(17:18):
And I think about how it's been proven over and over again.
There are lots of women who have children who do write, and it looks very different forthem.
But obviously, it comes with some, I don't want to say sacrifices, choices, I guess youhave to make.
but I'd love to hear about how your purpose feels in your body, particularly when you'revibing and you're living in your purpose versus how it feels when you are going against
(17:46):
it.
That's a great question.
So a lot of writers use this term, like being in flow and where like the writing is comingreally easily.
I feel almost tingly inside, if you will.
And I, you know, they say that Americans like our worst, the thing that's going to kill usis not smoking.
(18:10):
It's like sitting.
I could sit for hours.
if I'm writing and I'm in flow and I know what I'm doing is great.
And it just feels good and I don't have any problem with it.
I'm like, my gosh, it's two o'clock in the morning.
Why am I still sitting at my desk?
And again, the stories, the words, they just flow.
And I feel lucky that, you know, that happens for me when I'm writing a blog post aboutlike an opinion piece or something I'm just excited to write about.
(18:38):
It helps, it happens for me when I'm working on a novel that
nobody makes you write a novel.
Like I've never been contracted to write a novel.
So any novel I'm working on, for the most part, I'm excited about it.
And so again, it's like a joy.
literally, I wrote myself a little sign for my door.
It says Lori's writing workshop.
(18:59):
And when I come into my office, that's what I feel like.
I'm like, I'm coming to do.
I love it.
Now, on the other hand, do get, I mean, I have to make a living.
And so sometimes I write for other people.
I do ghost writing.
Sometimes I'm just, you know, writing articles for publications.
And that feels like sometimes that can feel like torture.
(19:24):
I mean, it can literally feel like almost like having a rash, like something like aburning frustration and anger because you're using your gifts.
for something that you don't believe in.
It's like, it would be asking a superhero to work for the dark side.
And that's how I feel when I'm using my gifts.
(19:45):
And I do believe that my ability to write is a gift.
So if I'm using it for something that doesn't fulfill me or satisfy me or feels like it's,again, it's just transactional.
It's almost like a burning in my stomach.
It's an uncomfortable feeling and I just can't wait to like put it aside and get back tothe writing that fulfills me, that lights me up.
(20:08):
It seems like you sometimes go against convention.
mean, you said to this woman, well, perhaps you didn't say it out loud, but perhaps yousaid it to yourself that watch me, I'm going to do it.
But the other thing that you did as well is that you became a professor, a tenuredprofessor at Temple University, and you decided to kind of switch tracks at that time.
(20:35):
Can you tell me about that story?
Sorry, you're referring to me becoming a professor, like going into academia as theswitching tracks?
No, I guess I'm talking about, well, I guess, yeah, you have several tracks that youswitched in your career.
So you left journalism, you became, you left journalism and started teaching and you thengot tenure and then you left teaching.
(21:06):
Well, technically you didn't leave teaching.
You left university life, you left academia and
move to Spain.
So you've changed tracks several times.
Yes, I mean, yes and no, because essentially I've been a writer all along.
I've just changed platforms, if you will, or institutions.
(21:28):
when I, you know, the move into academia was precipitated by my move leaving New York Cityand moving to Philadelphia.
So at the time, New York City was the epicenter of magazine journalism, which is what Ispecialized in.
And so I knew
I couldn't maintain that if I was living in Philadelphia.
(21:51):
So academia became the way for me to have a steady paycheck while I was a new mom to twoand then three children.
But it also allowed me, gave me the security that I could then write without working as afreelancer and wondering and being forced to write, again, just in a transactional way so
(22:14):
I could be a lot more selective.
about the types of things I wrote.
So I wrote my first book, Hair Story, while I still worked in magazine journalism in NewYork City.
My second book, Kingi Gazpacho, was a memoir.
I was still in New York when I wrote that.
So I was actually working on my first novel when I entered academia, which again, youdon't get paid to write novels.
(22:36):
So it was actually very convenient that I had this full-time job and I could write also atthe same time.
Academia allowed me to, again, to teach, which I really enjoyed, but also to, again,pursue the writing projects that I wanted to without worrying about the financial gain or
(22:57):
loss that I might take in pursuing projects that moved me.
And because the things that moved me usually had to do with black people and other peopleof color, race, and identity, they weren't necessarily big money makers.
I wasn't writing books that I knew were gonna be
bestsellers, for example, but I would know that they were important.
(23:19):
having the academic job allowed me to do that.
And then when I moved to Spain, we moved to Spain in 2021 in the middle of the pandemicduring the Black Lives Matter 2.0 movement, as I call after the murder of George Floyd.
And that was, again, precipitated by knowing that I always want it to be a globalliterary, like to have this global literary life that was always
(23:45):
in my journals writing about it.
Like that was my dream.
In fact, I became a writer with this idea that I could live anywhere in the world if I'm awriter.
And so after at that time, when the world felt like it was ending in a lot of ways, Ithought if I don't make this move now, if I don't take this leap of faith now, I mean, I
(24:08):
don't have tomorrow for sure.
Like, again, it sounds cliche, but I feel like 2020, 2021 proved.
that tomorrow is not promised.
And so at that point, I had started ghost writing and I continued to write books formyself and still did freelance writing and was able to financially prove to myself that I
(24:30):
didn't need academia anymore as that safety net, which it had been for the majority of mychildren's lives, their young lives, so to speak.
And so the move to Spain and launching Read, Write and Create
which like you said, I'm still teaching, but it allowed me to recenter my creative writinginstead of having the kind of academic overlord, if you will, kind of dictating the
(24:58):
majority of my time because yes, I was still able to write, but it had to be in the cracksand crevices of other finding that time in between my academic responsibilities.
And now I can again center.
the things that light me up the most, my creative work, and also helping other writersbring their visions, their literary visions, to life as well.
(25:21):
So it's always about the writing, but being a mother as well and having to have thatpractical angle to it, I have moved around knowing, I think always in the back of my mind
though, that a writer's life shouldn't look like one thing.
I mean, I don't want to be
writing the same thing I was writing 20 years ago.
(25:43):
If I'm not evolving, then this writer's life that I selected wouldn't live up to the dreambecause that was one of the fundamental things that made writing so attractive to me is
that you never know what's coming next.
And you can always be trying different things, nonfiction, fiction, short stories, novels,movie screenplays, anything is possible.
(26:05):
yeah, I feel like my career has evolved exactly as it was meant to.
As you were chatting and you have a full life, kids, dog, the whole thing, when you wereteaching, when you were at Temple, how did you find time to write that was at least to
(26:26):
write outside of your duties as a professor?
Well, I mean, obviously we have summers, which is again, one of the benefits of working inacademia.
Although there always seems to be something, you know, teaching a summer course, having todo research or other things that are required.
So it always seems like you're a lot done over the summers and it's never quite as muchtime as you think.
(26:51):
But regardless, you do have your summers.
And also in order to get tenure and to keep my job, I had to write.
Like there's no choice.
And so that's the thing, like one of the reasons that I feel like I'm a good book coachand champion for other writers is I really don't let people make excuses because we, if
(27:13):
you wanna do something, you just do it.
You make the time.
I did a whole podcast episode about that.
You're never gonna find the time, cause it's not there and you can't manufacture time.
You have to make the time in your schedule for the things that you prioritize, the thingsthat are important to you.
And one of the reasons on my podcast, the Read, Write, Create podcast, the reason that Ialways tell stories about our literary ancestors is because whatever troubles we're having
(27:39):
right now as writers, like we can't find the time, we can't figure out how to get thisdone.
Look at our literary ancestors, look at Phyllis Wheatley.
She was enslaved when she wrote her first book of poetry as an enslaved woman who got thefirst book by an African American published.
And again, she was enslaved.
(28:00):
She was kind of busy.
So what is your excuse?
When I look at all of our literary ancestors who found the time, uh made a way, were ableto overcome the fact that women weren't even allowed, like third class citizens, black
women were fourth class citizens.
So that is where I get the inspiration.
(28:21):
And I just don't allow myself to have excuses to say, it's not possible.
I don't have time.
Children were super young.
Sometimes, I I had very little money because at that point I was a freelance writer.
My husband is a teacher, like never made a lot of money.
But I took the little bit of money I had and I hired a babysitter for my second son, myelder son.
(28:43):
He was three.
The baby was a month or two.
No, he was, guess, six or seven months old.
But regardless, I hired a babysitter for like four hours a week.
That's what I could afford.
So...
When the babysitter was available, had my baby for those four hours, I would go to a cafe,because New York City apartments were teeny, so there was no place for me to be writing.
(29:03):
I would just go to a cafe, take my computer, and that's how I wrote my novel.
Four hours per week.
And if that's all I had, that's what I did.
And that's why I say that actually mothers are really efficient writers, because if youlearn, look, the baby sleep, that's when you're gonna write.
When you have all the time in the world, you tend to waste it.
So there's no secret.
There's absolutely no secret except the mindset shift that if this is something that'simportant to you, you will make the time to do what you have to do.
(29:31):
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
The reason why I started my sub stack newsletter, Creative Matters, is because once I waslooking at how much time I was spending on social media, and in one week I spent two hours
on Instagram and on YouTube.
And then at that point, Lori, I was complaining how I had no time, blah, blah, blah, I waslike, you need to tell me I found two hours somehow.
(30:01):
to give my time away to someone else.
And so that's why I took it back.
And I was like, okay, well, then we're going to figure this thing out.
And we know that routinely the way that we have to, we have to work in the way, if we wantto get anything done, we just have to be focused.
Like you said, we have to live in our purpose and we just have to do it rather thancomplaining about how we want to do it.
(30:29):
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.
And I'm not suggesting that it's easy.
And people will say, oh, if you want to be a writer, if you want to be a creative, youhave to be on social media, you have to do marketing, you don't tell people what you're
doing or promote your work.
And so it really is this, it's a mind fuck.
Like you just don't know where you should be spending your time because you want to getthat book deal.
(30:54):
And the first thing people ask is, well, how many followers do you have?
Do you have a platform?
And so that struggle is real.
That's why I'm saying I don't want to diminish this idea that, yeah, you just ignore theworld, do what you have to do, because there are other concerns.
But what I always tell my writers in the sanctuary is it doesn't matter if you have aplatform, if you have no book.
(31:20):
So it's about when you do these things, right?
So it is impossible.
I mean, you have a limited amount of time.
Does that mean you should like work on your book for an hour and then work on social mediafor an hour?
I don't believe so.
I think you should work on your book, get your book written because there's a lot of timesif you're working on a book or if you're working on a longer form project, but there's a
(31:41):
lot of in between times when you're working on a long form project.
So for example, you're writing a book, you're writing a novel, for example, or anynonfiction manuscript doesn't matter, but a long form project, you have to write it.
and then put it away for a moment and kind of rest.
Well, while you're resting, go work on your social media stuff.
Go work on your platform at that point.
(32:03):
And then you gotta pick it up again, work on your second draft.
And then when that second draft is with a beta reader, for example, guess what you can bedoing?
Working on that social media stuff.
And then there's, again, so there's lots of kind of ebbs and flows of this creativeprocess where you aren't actually writing all the time, but when you are writing, be
writing.
(32:23):
and also recognize again that having a platform isn't really a, there's no point if youdon't have the product.
The product is what's really important.
And at the end of the day, if that product is good enough, not that it'll sell itself,cause it won't.
I mean, let's be honest, it won't, but it will give you a leg up if you have that greatproduct.
(32:47):
And then you can start working on the audience and the social media and all thatextraneous stuff.
So remember, keep your eyes on what's important, which is the writing, the creativeproduct, whatever it might be.
then, and because only you can do that also, you can always hire somebody.
if worse, I hire my 13 year old to do a lot of my social media, you know, things likethat.
(33:09):
But you really can, you can hire somebody to do the other stuff, but the creative output,that can only come from you.
And so that's, know, if you have limited time, that's what I always tell my writers, focuson the product.
do the other stuff as, you know, once the cake is baked, then you can come and worry aboutthe frosting and the decorations.
(33:30):
Well, let's talk about sanctuary and let's talk about writing.
I was telling my husband yesterday how excited I am for when sanctuary opens again becauseI'm joining.
I created the outline and I'm in the process of writing the first two chapters of what Ihope will be my book.
(33:50):
But we never know, you know, like when you go into writing a book or when you go intowriting, you start one thing and then you realize, no, it really is something else.
oh
It is always a journey, so I'm really excited to learn from you.
But tell us a little bit about Sanctuary, because then I have some other questions thatI'm sure people will want to know about how to become a stronger writer.
(34:13):
Sure, absolutely.
And I have to just say really quickly that that's actually the best attitude you can have,Martina, about writing.
And that's something I used to teach my journalism students because it was reallyimportant.
But any writer who embarks on a project, you have an idea, but you have to be open to thefact that this idea could morph into something completely different once you get into it.
And when you're too wedded to what it was supposed to be, you can find the experience tobe very unpleasant because it's like working where there's a wall and you just...
(34:41):
can't get through it because you're not allowing the project to evolve and develop intowhat it needs to be.
So that's just something that I wanted to comment that you have the perfect attitude aboutit is where is it going to take me?
Where is this journey going to take me?
So the sanctuary is something that, yes, I've always wanted to be a writer, but I'mnaturally a community builder.
That's just something that I am.
(35:02):
I just naturally do.
I am the person who, random people in a room, and I'll be like, we should start a group,you guys.
Like, there should be a group.
You, you and you, let's come on, let's do something, let's have a club, let's have acommunity.
I actually got in trouble in third grade.
That just reminded me how far back this goes because I was like, three of my friends, Iwas like, we should start our own club called the Four-Colored Rainbow.
(35:27):
I don't know why, because they were all white, but I still was like, we should be calledthe Four-Colored Rainbow.
I had a logo for us.
had a little like, I had it all worked out.
And then one of this.
another little girl's mom called and said her daughter felt left out because she wasn'tpart of the four colored rainbow.
But the point is, was always coming, like putting people in groups, creating community,something I've always done.
(35:50):
And as writers, particularly, this is so important because writing is a solitary job andit's a long job.
It's a long process to go from idea to book being out in the world.
And something that I've actually
become an evangelist about is how important it is for people to write in community.
(36:14):
And I'm gonna take that up another notch, two other notches, how important it is for womento write in community and how important it is for BIPOC women to write in community.
Why?
Because BIPOC women are the least represented people in the mainstream book industry.
And yet we're the ones that buy the most books, fun fact.
So we need the support.
(36:36):
plain and simple.
Like even if we're just talking about for business advice, we need the support.
But it goes so much deeper than that.
When you write in community, there are research studies that prove that women who write incommunity are more prolific, more productive, feel more confident about their work, and
their work actually improves.
(36:56):
Like their craft improves when they work in community.
So from like, I don't have to say anything else about why I created the community.
with just those facts, right?
But more importantly, there's such a myth that writing should be something that you do byyourself, that there's some sort of extra prize for sitting in your attic, toiling away at
(37:18):
your typewriter, never coming out for air, never changing your clothes, just like thissuffering writer who does everything by themselves.
again,
when you look at the most successful writers, all of them have a support system.
Most of them had communities.
And not like a dirty little secret, but it's not really talked about that our favoritewriters have these support systems in place.
(37:43):
And again, because women writers and women of color writers in particular are so oftenoverlooked for great work, we'd need that extra layer of defense and support and
I mean, and that support is everything from financial support.
So in the sanctuary, we provide resources for our writers to apply for grants, contests,open submission calls that are not specifically for BIPOC women, but that we vet them to
(38:14):
make sure that these are opportunities that women of color would be good for.
But also even just, and that craft advice, we do workshops, writing workshops, craftworkshops, generative workshops.
But also we really talk about
platform and promoting your work and how do you get your work out and seen by the rightpeople.
So we say that we help writers with the entire life cycle of their writing career becauseit's not just about getting the work done or becoming a better quote unquote writer.
(38:43):
We want women writers to have the entirety of a writing career.
So write the book, sell the book, promote the book, become a best seller and repeat.
We believe, like our ethos in the sanctuary is that BIPOC women writers are the women, arethe people who are going to write the stories that change the world.
And so whatever support we can give each other, and of course, just being in communitywith one another, we see collaboration happening.
(39:11):
We see support happening.
have accountability partners.
Like we share not just physical resources, but mental resources, emotional resources foreach other.
And it's incredible to see
even just doing co-writing sessions where I have to get up at 6 a.m.
if I'm gonna get this book done.
You talked about when do you find the time?
(39:32):
Well, sometimes it means getting up at six.
Some of our writers are in the Midwest, so it's five for them, but they're there becausethey know everybody else is there and they're gonna get that novel written.
They're gonna get that memoir written.
And we have feedback circles once a month for different genres.
So again, you're not doing it alone.
Someone's gonna tap you on your virtual shoulder.
(39:54):
Hey, you said you were gonna get your memoir done.
You said you're gonna have your chapter.
What happened to it?
And when you win that prize or get the agent, we are all cheering for you.
And that's the other thing, like regular people, you know this, Martine, because creativesare our own special bunch.
Regular people are not gonna be like, you got an agent, girl?
Good Lord, congratulations.
(40:15):
They're gonna be like, I guess that's good, right?
Or I finished this chapter.
Nobody cares except other writers.
I've been working for months and I finally got the chapter right.
I got the wording right.
Nobody cares in your regular life.
And that's also, it can be depressing when you put all this time and energy getting up at6 a.m.
toiling away on this thing.
(40:37):
Nobody cares except other writers.
So you want to be with your people and that's what the sanctuary is.
It's one big love fest of BIPOC women writers, like supporting one another, loving on eachother.
and it's a virtual community, so we have members from all over the United States, and nowwe have quite a few members in Europe and the UK as well.
(40:58):
And on my recent visit to the United States, we did some in-person meetups, so now we'veseen each other in real life, and we want people to keep on meeting up.
I I haven't been to Atlanta, but we've got a bunch of people in Atlanta.
They meet up on their own, so we're just really trying to foster this strong community ofBIPOC women writers.
(41:18):
so that we can take over the world.
I think you're so right because sometimes we'll see a book that someone has published andall of a sudden we think, that person did do it on their own.
But every single writer who has been on this podcast talks about their community.
They talk about the person that helps them think about the character development orsomebody who will read the first draft for them and say, this section here, it's pretty
(41:49):
whack.
or someone who will just help them think through ideas.
We don't go through this world alone.
We need each other and we need the help.
Could you tell me a little bit about how you see people change as they've gone throughsanctuary in terms of their skill, their writing skill, or at least maybe you could talk
(42:13):
about some of the common lessons that you see people learn as they go through sanctuaryand are
sharpening their skill as a writer.
To be honest, think the most common benefit that people get and that they're so surprisedabout really is this idea that their writing practice improves in community.
(42:38):
So we have people come in who are like, I haven't written, I don't have a regular writingpractice.
haven't, you know, I write once in a blue moon, but since I started in the sanctuary, likeI finished an entire draft of my novel.
and the sanctuary has only been open for a year.
And it's because the idea of having this form of accountability, having, we call eachother sister-scribes in the sanctuary, I cannot overstate how important regularity to a
(43:07):
writing practice is.
It's just like being an athlete.
If you don't write on a regular basis, then you are not gonna improve.
So you could be the most talented writer in the world, but if you don't write regularly,your craft does not improve.
if you write regularly, every single time you write, you are going to strengthen thatwriting muscle.
(43:30):
so, for example, we have co-writing sessions almost every day of the week, but we alsohave generative writing sessions once a month.
And we try different techniques and we share different ways that you can look at yourwriting, practice writing.
We did a workshop on
using music to create your characters.
(43:51):
It's a very interesting process.
But we also did a workshop on using poetry to make, to become a better prose writer.
So when you come to the workshops and you're practicing these different things, andthat's, it's the idea of regular practice.
So the first Saturday of every month, we have these kind of creative writing workshops,and we have the co-writing sessions almost every day of the week.
(44:15):
And so what you have is that people come in,
not having a practice.
They call themselves a writer or they want to write a book, but they don't have a writingpractice.
And that's what we teach our writers to do.
It's like joining a gym.
I always say the sanctuary is like a combination of a house of worship and a gym.
We keep you inspired and in shape so that you can get the work done that you want to getdone.
(44:38):
And people don't think about writing that way.
They're like, oh, I want to write a book.
And they like, 2025 is going to be the year I write my book.
with no practice, it'd be like saying, I'm gonna run a marathon in 2025.
Well, what have you done to get in shape?
What have you done to strengthen your muscles so that you could actually run a marathon?
(44:58):
Again, we don't teach people how to write.
Like the sanctuary is not for the person who's never really taken any kind of writingclasses, has never really practiced their writing.
And they're like, oh, that sounds like fun.
No offense, like it's not about that.
It's, but we can't help you.
You have to know how to write.
You just don't have a solid writing practice.
And we firmly believe, like any other skill, you can always improve.
(45:23):
I I've written seven books, but I still take writing classes.
I still participate in the workshops if I'm not teaching them.
I still always look for opportunities to go to writing retreats where I'm not justwriting, but learning something new because I don't know everything.
I mean, I still
I at poetry, but would love to become a better poet.
(45:48):
Would like to learn how to be more efficient with my words like poets are, right?
So that is what we do, I think, really well in the sanctuary, which is to help peopleunderstand what it means to have a writing practice.
And when you have a writing practice, you will be amazed at how much better you become asa writer.
(46:09):
And again, I keep using the sports metaphors, but it's like,
When you take a runner or a swimmer, any other kind of like endurance athlete, and youmake them work out in the gym a little bit and make their muscles stronger, they're like,
my gosh, swimming is so much easier now that my muscles are stronger.
my gosh, I can run faster and farther now that I've done a little strength training on mylegs.
(46:34):
It's the same idea in, not everybody, but many people don't recognize how important thatkind of regular practice is.
to elevating your writing.
So what does a writing practice look like?
uh Okay, that's a very good question.
So many people are like, if you don't write every day, you can't be a writer.
(46:54):
I think that puts a lot of people off because with their busy lives, they can't even thinkabout how they could possibly write every day.
A writing practice though requires regularity.
It requires, this is when I write on a regular basis.
So maybe it's Mondays from seven in the morning till eight in the morning.
(47:15):
Every Monday, that's what you do.
You're in the same place and you do it.
If you can do every day, Monday through Friday, then that's what you do.
Maybe you're a weekend writer.
Saturdays and Sundays, you dedicate three hours per day.
That's what your practice looks like.
Now, what else is involved in a writing practice?
(47:37):
Reading.
People don't understand.
That's why the sanctuary is part of the umbrella of my overall brand, which is Read,Write, and Create.
A writing practice isn't just the writing.
There's thinking, there's reading, and there's other creating, which is why I love yourpodcast, Martín, because creative people tend to have multiple mediums that they display
(48:03):
their creativity in.
We just had Ingrid Rojas Contreras visit us in the sanctuary.
She wrote the memoir, The Man Who Could Move Clouds, beautiful memoir.
We have a book club because we read.
And the book club is the read like a writer book club.
And so when we have our meetings, we talk about craft as much as we talk about story,about the book.
(48:28):
And sometimes the author comes.
So Ingrid came and she was talking about her process for writing this incredible memoir.
And somebody asked her about how she chose the structure for the book.
And she said, well, I was taking a basket weaving class at the time.
And while I was writing, just felt like I needed to take a basket weaving class.
(48:48):
And she discovered that kind of the structure of the weaving led her to the structure shewanted to use for laying out her story, which was fascinating.
But that's why I always tell my writers to figure out like what other creative outletsmight you use or pursue, not like to be a professional or anything, but literally just to
(49:12):
allowed the creative self be in practice to then inspire or impact or influence yourwriting.
It's incredible.
So the writing practice means that you have reading, creating, and writing incorporatedinto your life, and then it becomes a practice.
(49:34):
Oh boy.
I was listening to one of your episodes where you were talking about like how you need toread to write.
And I was like, oh, this is exactly what I've been doing because there are some people,some writers that I love because the prose is so, so spectacular.
And I don't know where I found this, but one person was saying sometimes if you want tostrengthen your muscles a little bit, you could literally
(50:02):
choose a passage from a book and just type it out so that as you're typing it out, there'ssomething about seeing and then transferring it through touch that embeds it in your mind
in a different way than you might ever think that it could be, you know, just a little bitdifferent.
But I'm finding that, you know, I'm doing a lot more reading on writing right now, whichis kind of, it's super meta.
(50:30):
but really interesting as well because it makes me think about what am I trying toaccomplish in this paragraph?
What am I trying to accomplish in this sentence?
What am I trying to accomplish through using this comma?
And it's all of these things that I, you know, I write, but I never really think aboutwhat I'm writing.
(50:50):
I think about, okay, so how can I engage, but not necessarily how can I write in order tomake sure that
what I'm writing is indigene.
It's been just really fascinating to learn about writing.
Yeah, I mean, and that's what I mean also that like learning how to be a good writer,Yo-Yo Ma still practices his cello.
(51:14):
Like he doesn't just like chill and then go give a concert, right?
He is constantly improving, which you'd think, well, Yo-Yo Ma kind of, I think he knowswhat he's doing by now, but he still wants to be better.
And writers, we still want to be better.
There's so many different things to study, so many different styles.
So many different techniques that people use when you read it, you're like, whoa, that'sreally cool.
(51:38):
Now, the first time you read it, you might just be engaged in the story.
But then when you go back, because maybe the story just, there was a whodunit, maybe therewas something that you're like, I just feel so sad.
How did the writer get me to feel this?
Or how did the writer hook me into the story that I couldn't put it down?
You go back and ask yourself, what was happening on the page on the line level?
(52:02):
Is it the way that they structured the paragraphs?
Is it the fact that they had short chapters?
Or they had long chapters?
Or each one chapter was long, one was short.
You go back and dissect the structure of the book, the line level, the words they used,and you can learn so much by the response you had to the work.
And that's really what we're doing when we're reading, and that's why reading is soimportant as writers.
(52:25):
That's lovely.
Well, Lori, as we wrap up, I would love for you to tell me about a book or a concept thathas significantly shaped your outlook on life.
Hmm.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I am in my early 50s, so I've lived a lot of life.
(52:48):
And I've had, at certain points in my life, there was different messaging that wassignificant to me.
But right now, at this stage in my life, I am truly, I call myself a storytellingevangelist, but it is almost magical how this concept keeps coming up in my life.
(53:08):
And when I say storytelling evangelist, I mean that I
preach the gospel of storytelling as a powerful form for social change.
That storytelling ruined the world, but storytelling can save the world.
Storytelling is a buzzword right now.
They're teaching storytelling in business schools.
Their storytelling is now the big marketing buzzword where, your company's story.
(53:33):
Everybody connects to stories, but it's true.
Everybody does connect to stories.
They connect to stories more than they connect to
facts and figures and profit and loss forms that you could talk about for your company.
But I look at storytelling as, it's like, since I moved to Spain and I've dedicated mylife to my own creative storytelling output, but also supporting other storytellers and
(54:02):
doing it with a strong manifesto and a really strong sense of purpose.
I don't just work with BIPOC women writers because I like them.
I really believe that the world we live in was shaped by the storytelling of white men forthe most part.
I mean, that's what white supremacy is all about.
(54:24):
It was this creation story meant to keep white men at the top of the food chain, right?
And it's just a story.
That concept of white supremacy is a fairy tale.
Literally, I say it's a grim fairy tale told by an unreliable narrator.
That's what white supremacy is.
And so we need new stories.
We need new narratives.
(54:45):
And who should tell those stories but the people who have had their voices silenced?
People of the global majority, particularly women, because the melanin and then our genderhas kept us labeled as the stories that we tell as unimportant.
Chinua Achebe said that until the lion learns to write, all stories will glorify thehunter.
(55:09):
And so my mission with the sanctuary is to get all these writers, get all these lionswriting, right?
Telling these stories so that we can stop glorifying the hunter and change the narrativethat we all live by.
My impetus, my inspiration to write is to do the same thing.
I want to tell stories that will change people's lives by making them think differentlyabout what's possible and where they came from, okay?
(55:36):
So.
That's what I live by now.
really, really believe, like when I call myself a storytelling evangelist, it's not just acatchy title.
It's very long and it's very, and if you say it over and over again, it's, you know, itgets stuck on your tongue.
But I really am saying that because I truly believe that storytelling will save the world.
So, and when I say it's kind of magical, it just keeps popping up in different ways toreinforce this belief that I am on the right track and that what I'm doing
(56:07):
is important.
It seems like the perfect place to stop, Lori.
Wow.
That was great.
Thank you so much, Laurie, for coming on the show.
I really enjoyed chatting with you and I feel like your podcast always leaves me peppedup.
(56:29):
Like I just feel like it gives me a little zing that I needed to get myself into gear.
I can't wait to be part of Sanctuary and I can't wait to learn more from you and I knowthat as
our listeners are listening to this episode that they will be, they have a lot ofquestions to ask themselves as to what they want out of their lives and what story are
(56:55):
they telling with their actions and through their creativity and their creative life.
Well, thank you, Weren'tine, and I appreciate this opportunity to talk to other creativepeople.
And if people do want to join the sanctuary, they can find every bit of information aboutit on the Read, Write, and Create website, is R-E-E-D, writeandcreate.com.
(57:22):
there.
I have a quick favor to ask you before you go.
If you're loving this show, would you mind taking a quick second to leave us a five-starreview on your favorite go-to podcast app?
Here's the thing.
Those reviews are like magic fairy dust.
They help other creatives of color discover our show and tap into their own artisticsuperpowers.
(57:47):
While you're at it,
Why not subscribe to our sub stack newsletter Creative Matters?
Creative Matters is like a weekly dose of inspiration delivered straight to your inbox.
You can find the link to subscribe in the show notes.
All right, that's all that I have for you today.
(58:08):
I can't wait to see you on the next episode.
Bye.
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