NASA's Human Landing System, Core Values, and 'The Unconditionals' | Andy Crocker | People of Space - Today In Space

Episode Transcript
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Today In Space (00:02):
Andy, welcome to Today In Space, and we're back
for another episode of people ofspace this week. We get to talk
with Andy Crocker, and we get toget a look into what this
podcast has been covering forabout a decade. Here, Andy was
deep into this in thebackground, doing the work of
aerospace engineering and somuch about the human landing

(00:25):
system, and we're going to talkall about that in a second. But
Andy, thank you for

Andy Crocker (00:29):
joining us. Thank you so much for having me. I'm
excited to be on Yeah,

thank you. And so let's, let's have you
introduce yourself to the folksand just give like, a background
of where you came from, andreally like what we're going to
talk about today. Yeah,

great, yeah. So I'm an aerospace engineer for 30
years. They've worked in in thespace part of aerospace, not not
commercial aircraft or or otherthings. A little bit of defense
work, missile defense andhypersonics, but a lot of work
with NASA, a lot of work withcommercial space. I've always

(01:03):
been on the industry side, sosupported the government most of
my career, but but I've alwaysbeen on the side of industry. I
fell in love with with aerospacein eighth grade. I did a science
project on space stations, andjust said to myself, Hey, this
is what I want to do. Actually,really wanted to be an

(01:25):
astronaut, and maybe we get intothat a little bit later, but,
but that didn't work out. But I,you know, fell back to to
aerospace engineer, which isalmost as cool. And I've had a
great opportunity to do work ongreat projects, really forward
leaning projects, you know, alot of advanced concepts in my
career. And then, like you said,the human landing system. So

(01:47):
it's been a lot of fun.

Yeah, take me back to like, was it becoming an
astronaut that kind of sparkedyour interest in diving into
this really intense world ofaerospace engineering? Or, like,
was there in your childhood?Like, what? What drove you
there? Yeah,

like, I said it was, I knew I liked math and
science and, you know, you're alot of people don't start
thinking about what they want tobe. I mean, you know, I wanted
to be a quarterback for theDallas Cowboys, you know, but,
but when you really startthinking about realistic career
choices. You know, it can beanything, and sometimes, you

(02:25):
know, nothing really sparksuntil you, even you get into
college. But for me, it was thatscience project, and thinking
about space stations, I kind ofdesigned one, you know, as you
do as an eighth grader. It'sprobably exactly like NASA's
got, probably copied it. But,and this was, you know, this was
Space Station Freedom. This wasway before ISS. Oh, wow. So, so,

(02:48):
yeah, way back. But just at thattime, I said, Okay, this is,
this is what I want to do. I'mgonna work in space. And I was
really thinking aerospaceengineer, but as I really got
into it and and thought moreabout what the options might be.
I started thinking aboutastronaut, and I talk in the
book some about this that, youknow, I probably, if I really

(03:09):
wanted to be an astronaut, Iwould have, and should have put
more effort into that. And wecan talk more about what that
means, but, but, um, the goodnews is that I had invested
myself in aerospace engineering,you know, for a major and had
some good internships thatallowed me to, you know, move in

(03:31):
that direction. So that thathelped a lot. And then, you
know, even though I was reallydisappointed I couldn't be an
astronaut when I found out I Itwasn't. It didn't take too much
to fall back, you know, andstill appreciate, hey, I get,
still get to design spacecraftfor people and robots and, you

(03:52):
know, as it turns out, work withastronauts and things like that.
So not too bad.

That's very cool. Let's touch on your book
real quick, because so I've gotthe title here is the
unconditional, five timelessvalues to live without limits
and ignite your superpower.What, what sparked that and
then, like, what, where was,where did the book come from?

Right? So two, two major things really got me
working on it. I've alwayswritten sort of on the side, but
but never really something likethis. And worked on the human
landing system program and lostand I talked about this in the
book. This is sort of the way Iintroduced the book that you

(04:37):
know we were we were competing.We were one of three companies
competing to actually design thelander to go to the moon. And it
was our, our company, BlueOrigin and SpaceX. And so, you
know, it kind of felt like usagainst Elon and Jeff, right,
sure, but, but, but we didn't.We didn't win. We had two

(04:59):
opportunities. Two kind offinal, final competition things,
and didn't win either time. Andwe had just a fantastic team. It
was, it was an absolute blast towork on. So about five years
that we worked on it, but youget to the end of that, and you
think, Okay, what am I going todo now? And so the way I say it
in the book is, you know, I hada purpose. I had this great

(05:21):
purpose, the holy grail for foraerospace engineer designing a
lunar lander for crew. And Istep back and say, Well, what's,
what's my purpose now? And whatis purpose, you know, what does
that even mean? And at the sametime, the other thing is that my
my kids, you know, were growingup. My son became a senior in
high school, I'm like, wow, Ireally need to get down on

(05:44):
paper. What I want my kids toknow is important in life. And
so as I started writing it, Irealized that, you know, there's
a lot more to success than yourcareer, a lot more than just
your projects are successful, oryou get a promotion, or you make

(06:04):
a lot of money. And I really duginto that, and it turned out to
be a lot more than I expected.It wasn't just a pamphlet for my
kids or something on notebookpaper, but the main thing that I
really realized, and was kind ofan aha moment for me, is that

(06:26):
the unconditional aspect ofthese values, that it's one
thing to have these values andto try to live them, but living
them unconditionally, whichmeans not based on
circumstances, not based on howother people treat you, or how
other people look or or whatyour outcome might be, or you

(06:48):
know what could happen if thingsgo wrong, independent of all
that you need to have thesevalues in your life and and
strive for unconditionality inthese five values. And that
really struck me, and it'sactually meant a lot to me in
terms of how I think about theway I'm trying to be, and how
I'd love my kids to try to be.So I turned it into a book, and

(07:12):
it's, it's meant a lot to me,and I hope you know other people
find it useful.

Yeah, I, I can tell you, I have been on a
journey of living a life ofvalues, and, you know, it's,
that's a journey in itself. AndI think a lot of people, even if
you're not in the aerospace orengineering fields, like it's a
thing that's that's across allall walks of life. And I feel

(07:39):
like the last 20 years, havebeen living with so many options
that you're so if you if youdon't know your values, or if
you're not like paying attentionto them, you can find yourself
sliding down and then realizing,where am I? Who am I? What do I
believe in? You know, yeah,yeah.

I love the way you put that sliding down. That's
exactly the way I put it in thebook. You know, actually, you
say, you know these values, andreally any, any values, but
particularly, I focus on these,if you may have the right
intent. But if, if it's based onthings outside of you, if it's
based on external factors, yoursituation, other people,

(08:19):
whatever, you can quickly slidedown to the negative end of that
spectrum, from, you know, loveto hate, from integrity to
disintegrity, very quickly. Andso you've got to separate
yourself from that slide and andtry to be unconditional. But

(08:39):
you're right. It's a journey.It's, it's very clear in my
book, it's an ideal, which meanswe're not ever going to get
there, right? Yeah, absolutely.Like driving towards the sun on
the horizon, and you're nevergoing to get there, but you keep
your eyes on it,

yeah. And that's engineering in a lot of ways,
right? It's like we have all thebest plans in the world, all the
best theoretical things, but assoon as soon as that stuff gets
made, it's a whole and used,it's a whole

story. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah.
Engineering is a great trainingground for life. Absolutely,

yeah, yeah. I So tell me more about like, when
you first so the company thatyou're working for with the
human landing system, when didyou get started there, and how
did your path look like? Becausewe have a lot of folks who
listen to the podcast. Who arethey may have gotten a STEM
degree, but they don't work inSTEM anymore, but they're still

(09:32):
curious. And I think people havebeen engaging the most with like
learning how different careerpaths go. And I think that's
super valuable. So I'd love toknow your path just there and
how that happened.

Sure. Well, I'll tell you two aspects, one one
for myself, and then one for fora number of people who ended up
being on the team, who werereally not in aerospace or not
in the space part of aerospace,who ended up being on the team.
So I'll talk about both, firstfor myself, back at the end of.
Of 2018 I think it was when NASAsaid, Hey, we're going to, we're

(10:04):
going to try to go back to themoon with people again. And then
the very beginning of the nextyear, Vice President Pence, at
the time, came to Huntsville. Ilive in Huntsville, Alabama. He
came here and said, hey, theTrump administration says we're
going to the moon by 2024 and ofcourse, you know, we're still
waiting, but it obviouslyinjected a lot of excitement and

(10:28):
a lot of energy and also alittle bit of a rush. But at the
same time, nobody had reallydone anything meaningful about
getting back to the moon since1972 right? I mean, Apollo 17,
so we weren't really behind ourmy company had not done anything

(10:48):
like this. We had, we had wonsome good NASA contracts. We had
some some success, but we wehadn't done anything like this.
But the good news, or at leastfor us, was nobody had right,
you know, everybody had donestudies, but we weren't really
behind in terms of lunar lander.So I actually was the one who
went to my boss and said, Weought to do this. You know, we
ought to take a shot at this.Yeah, so we threw our hat in the

(11:12):
ring and got a chance with Ithink it was 12 total companies,
either 11 or 12 total companies,who got a small study contract
to begin. And NASA was stillfiguring out what, how they they
wanted to do it. I mean, theyhad a 2028 goal in mind, and
Trump and Pence said, Wait aminute, you're going to go 2024

(11:34):
so they had to completely redotheir plans. This was, you know,
right at the beginning of that.And so our studies were, our
initial studies were on a verydifferent approach than what we
ended up doing, but, but when wegot through that first study,
then it was okay. Now you'regoing to because we're in this
much faster timeline. NASA saysNow you got to actually design

(11:56):
the real thing, and you got toshow how you can get there by
2024, so at the time, I went tomy boss and said, it would we
have to do this? It's like amoral imperative that we go
after this because, yeah,because we have a shot. I mean,
it's we had. We thought it was agreat design and, and I love

the design. I mean, honestly, yeah, we were
following it, and you guys beingin the mix there at the end, was
very exciting. I mean, oh, itwas

awesome. Yeah, I still love the design. You know,
I have models of it and on mydesk, in fact. And so it was a
lot of fun. But getting tocompete against, you know, the
big name companies thateverybody in the world literally
knows. And we were the the nonames, that people were like who

(12:44):
that was fun. That was a lot offun. And I was talking to
somebody recently and said, youknow, we were, we were kind of
an underdog, because nobody knewwho we were. And that was, that
was fun. It was nice. Itactually probably relieved some
of the pressure that we wouldhave felt otherwise, because
nobody expected us to to do asmuch as we did so So literally,

(13:06):
it was initiative, like, Ireally want to do this, and I
think we can do this, and in thethe situation is unique, because
nobody else had been there thatallowed us to get into it, but I
was in a really unique spot andbe able to kind of help push
that and make that happen. Whenwe when we won, when we got the
first big contract, and it wasus and Blue Origin and SpaceX,

(13:29):
obviously, we had a small team.We had to build the team quick.
And so we, you know, said, Hey,we're hiring. And I spent so
much time in the first three orfour months interviewing people
and making offers. But one ofthe really cool things was we
talked to some great folks whowere automotive engineers, who

(13:50):
were, you know, people who hadworked on commercial aircraft at
Gulfstream, people who weredesigners, like industrial
design folks, but they wanted towork on a lunar lander, right?
Yeah, and if they're supertalented and passionate about
this program, of course we'regoing to hire them. You know, it

(14:14):
doesn't matter that they don'thave the background in space.
Specifically, if they can do thework, we absolutely want them.
So we ended up with a fantasticteam. And really the core team
leadership was just a greatgroup that stayed through pretty
much the whole time. And I mean,half, maybe of them had not

(14:34):
worked on a space programbefore, but they had great, you
know, thermal design experience,great industrial design
experience, great experiencewith automotive I mean,
autonomous vehicles, you know,all those kinds of things. So so
it was a real proof that youdon't have to have worked in

(14:56):
space to be able to get on witha space. Program, and a lot of
those folks moved on, and eitherare working for blue or SpaceX
or, you know, another coolprogram now, because they wanted
to stay with space

Yeah, what were you looking for? I mean, you
kind of said it, but were youlooking for before you met these
people that weren't in theindustry, did you go into it
thinking about who you werelooking for. Were there certain
traits or things when you'retrying to look for these people
that you're thinking about?

Yeah. So I've hired hundreds of people in my
career, and it does dependsomewhat on the project, but in
general, I think what I and alot of folks that I've worked
with look for is, yeah, you wantpeople who have shown that they
care about their grades. Theydon't have to be 4.0 students,
right? But at least they caredand and that they are well

(15:51):
rounded. They're not justcompletely focused on one thing.
I mean, if they're superpassionate about space, maybe
they're, you know, blinders on,focused on space stuff, that's
that's something but, but reallywell rounded, and then show a
real interest in space. So theycould be doing anything else in
their career, but if they showthat they're really interested

(16:12):
in space, and obviouslyconvinced us that, that there
was a something there, then,then it mattered. And then a lot
of the time we were looking forpeople with hands on experience.
I mean, they don't have to be,they don't have to be mechanics.
You know, there are a lot of, alot of car gear heads who got on
the team, but, but a lot offolks who weren't, but they they

(16:34):
just like to be very hands on,involved in whatever they were
doing, whatever that means. Soall those things are great
traits to have and and thensometimes it's just, hey, this
person is going to be a greatteammate. You know, maybe he or
she is just coming out ofcollege. They don't have any
experience, but they're going tobe a great teammate. You can
just tell by talking to them,they're going to be a glue

(16:57):
person for the team. Yeah, wewant them on the team. Yeah,

no, that's thank you for sharing that. Because I
think especially for people whoare trying to get into the space
industry and feel like impostersyndrome, or I'm not skilled
enough for this, I think that'sa really important thing to
hear. Is that, you know, at theend of the day, it's about being
a part of a team and like thatis a really when you're so skill
obsessed, you can kind of losetrack of that. So could you,

(17:28):
could you tell me a little bitmore, like going back to, like
the Apollo era, you touched onsomething, and even leading up
to that, like the people thatworked on that, they'd never
been done before. So it's notlike there was, like an expert
to be done. So, like, even inthe most glorious sense of
space, which is that era, likethose they they didn't know what

(17:49):
they were doing out of they werewriting the book about it,
right,

right? Yeah. It blows my mind. It just blows. I
mean, we're all we're 60 years,really past what when they
started? Yeah, and it's onlynow. I mean, really, really,
when we started, when NASA said,Hey, we're going to go and
commercial industry is going tobe much more involved and really
going to kind of lead. It wasonly then that the technology is

(18:15):
necessary to do it made it toindustry. I mean, obviously, a
lot of the, you know, computerchips and and thermal management
and autonomy and all kinds ofthings have advanced, you know,
many, many fold in the recentdecades. But, but just all the
things that are necessaryweren't in the hands of industry

(18:36):
until, really, you know, 10years ago or less. So it just
blows my mind that 60 plus yearsago, folks who had none of that,
I mean, it hadn't been inventedyet, were able to with, with
literally, pencil and paper andbrains. Yeah, design these
things, and, you know, had thevery, very few failures that

(18:59):
they did on the ground andelsewhere. It's just, it's mind
boggling. And the fact that, youknow, we're still trying to do
get to the moon, but, but allthe other things we're still
trying to do in space, and it'shard. It's just hard.

Well, I want to jump to that next, because so we
live in this kind of gloriousage where we just spent the last
decade coming from what feltlike a complete break and almost
stop of the space program withthe shuttle die, at least from a
from an iconic sense for thenation. I think I know what you
mean, yeah, yeah. And then wehad this decade of just like

(19:36):
acceleration of the access tospace, and now we've got all
these companies going to themoon, Firefly being the only one
successfully doing it. I space,unfortunately, not landing
number two, intuitive machines,not landing number two, the
moon's really hard to land onright and like the the Apollo,

(19:58):
what they did on Apollo 11 is.Is even that much more exactly
that they did

it. It really is. It really is. Now it's worth
noting that their machines wereintentionally much simpler. You
know, we're trying to do more,and that's part of the problem.
You know, we're we're making itharder, but we do have the
technology we do, we can do it,and we've made mistakes. One of

(20:24):
the things I say in the book,and this is really for kind of
for folks who aren't spacefolks, is something you don't
think about until you work onspace programs. You know, you
spend years and years on this,and there are million things
that that have to go right. Butif one thing goes wrong,

(20:45):
everything, you know, everythingends and even especially with
some of these recent commercialLanders, you know, everything
goes right. Great mission, allthe way to the moon, and then
the very last thing goes wrong,you know. So I mean, they're
fantastic companies. They havesuper smart people, great teams,

(21:07):
awesome technology, andsomething just went wrong. So
it's, it's so hard, and it'sjust absolutely, it should blow
everybody's mind that the Apollofolks were able to do what they
did.

Yeah, yeah. And it, it really, it's kind of like
that thing where people thinksomeone's an overnight success,
and then you look into it andyou're like, No, it's doing it
forever. Like it was Apollo 11that landed on the moon, and
there was Mercury in Geminibefore it like, yeah, there's a
lot of mistakes that theyfigured out along the way. You
know, a lot of

mistakes, a lot of amazing successes. I mean,
Apollo Soyuz. I still am soamazed at that one. But one of
the things I mentioned in thetalk about in the book, is
Apollo one. And obviously, inthe Apollo program, and really
most of the space program until,uh, Challenger, you know, Apollo
one was, was the tragedy thatthat everybody talked about

(21:57):
that. I mean, of course, itwasn't because of that that
Apollo 11 was successful, butthe attention to detail that was
that was added, and, you know,the additional preparation, and
all the things that went intothe program after Apollo one,
when they realized, you know, itcan't happen this way. We've got

(22:17):
to change how we do things. Itjust went through. It could
force them to go through allthese different aspects of, you
know, I talked about endeavor asthe fifth, unconditional, all
the different things you gothrough, especially perseverance
and then, and then growth, whichis, you know, what you want to
get? Sometimes it requiresfailure. You certainly don't

(22:38):
want to lose people's lives whenyou fail, but you learn from
failure, and hopefully you growfrom it. And certainly, the fact
that they didn't, you know, loseanybody else, I mean, Apollo 13
was as amazing as anything,maybe more, but the fact that
they didn't lose anybody elsejust shows that they learned so

(22:59):
much after Apollo one, it's it'samazing. And there's so so many
stories that can be told aboutthat program.

Yeah, one of the gems that I found right around
this human landing system erawas the manual that they left
from that era. Could you tellfolks a little bit about that?

Well, when we started working on human lander,
we spent a lot of time. So I'mlucky to live in Huntsville.
There are a ton of things thereat the Space and Rocket Center
here. If you haven't been,please go. It's a fantastic
place. So there's, especially inthe propulsion side. There's a
ton of things to go look at thatfrom that era. And then, of

(23:46):
course, in Washington, DC, solooked at things up there. But,
but then really looking at themanuals. And there's so many
fantastic books that people haveput together, pulling together
those manuals. So literally,there's a manual for the Lunar
Lander. And, you know, you lookat the not the blueprints, but
the drawings, and in some of thespecs now, the vast majority of

(24:09):
them are out of overcome byevents, you know, so to speak,
because the technology hasadvanced so much more, right?
But it's still reallyinformative. You know, we're
still standing on theirshoulders and so, and it's a lot
of fun to look at those.

Yeah, it tells you a lot about, like, what it
means to go to space. And Ithink it's really an adventure.
And I think I'm learning moreabout, like, what that means.
And to your point, the failureis being a part of it. You know,
if you look into in the classicsense, the hero's journey,

(24:50):
right, in a lot of ways, that'swhat going to space is, and what
you have to do. And I thinkthat's why your book about the
unconditional is so important,because it's going to. Test you
along the way. It's, it's notgoing to be easy, but like, it's
those things that keep youtogether and fighting through
that,

right, right? Yeah, it's, it's, it's amazing
to me, in from two differentperspectives, where we are
today, in terms of common folksbeing able to go to space. You
know, not non multi decadetrained astronauts going to
space. It's amazing for onereason, you know, that people

(25:33):
can do it, that so many havedone it, and many, many, many
more are going to do it. Youknow, soon. It's amazing. On the
other side, in that I've been inthe industry 30 years. And I
thought at the beginning of mycareer, people would be doing it
soon, so that it is so hard andit's taken so long. But the
thing that I know will happen,unfortunately, before too long,
is it'll become commonplace.People will fit, you know, take

(25:55):
it for granted, and, yeah, it'shard. I think I know eventually
we will make it as safe asflying in an airplane, right?
Eventually. But the thing that II thought a lot about recently
is when more people are going tospace and have a chance to look
back at Earth, and this issomething all of the astronauts

(26:20):
talk about that, the perspectivethat you get looking at the
Earth from space, particularlyfrom the moon, but but even even
in Earth orbit, gives you acompletely different perspective
on our little problems here onthe planet, right? And you know,
you can't see the bordersbetween countries, and you can't

(26:40):
see the fights going on in theground, and all of that stuff
kind of vanishes, and yourealize, you know, there's 8
billion people on this littleball in the middle of this vast
universe that I'm excited about.There's a great book called
overview effect that that's, Ithink it's in its fourth
edition, and I just finishedreading it the other day that
talks about that, and it's, it'sa great thing to think about a

(27:08):
lot more people having thatperspective of, Hey, we gotta
take care of this planet andeach other. Because, you know,
it's one thing to be in in themix of it, but it's another
thing when you can step back andsee literally, the big picture,

yeah, and that's where space and being involved
in some of the aerospaceengineering is really deep at
the end of the day. And, like,it is so technical just to,
like, make it happen. But yeah,man, it's one of the deepest
things that you can you can be apart of. You know, yeah,

it is the astronauts, especially the ones
who went to the moon, just haveincredibly philosophical and
emotional, you know, responsesto to their experience,

yeah, and we're, we're at this kind of similar
place with the humans of thatera that just in a lot of ways,
like what manufacturing inAmerica is going through right
now. I came from the tool makingworld, so the machinists, like,
there's so many people who areso skilled and trained and just

(28:17):
had next level abilities to makethings. And, you know, we still
have some of them left, thankgoodness. And you know, the the
transfer of that knowledge andand what we do with that, with
this next generation, is veryinteresting in space is going
through that now, with, withvery, you know, luckily, a

(28:40):
decade of, you know, goodprivate industry support of the
public effort, I don't know. Idefinitely want to do more to
try and connect with the peoplethat we still have with us, you
know,

right? Yeah, that was something that that was
exciting earlier in my career, Iwas able to meet and connect
with and learn from folks whowere still around from either
the beginning of shuttle orthere were a few that were still
around from Apollo, especiallyhere in Huntsville, there were,
there were a number very, veryfew anymore, the ones now really

(29:20):
were from the very end ofApollo, maybe or, or certainly
still the beginning of shuttle.But, yeah, the the knowledge
they have, the just theexperience of of, you know,
building something from nothingis is amazing to learn from. One
of the things that that I thinkhas really been exciting the

(29:41):
last probably five years is nowthat there are a handful of very
successful companies in theprivate space world. They have
spawned so many others becausepeople, you know, they'll go to
a SpaceX or a Blue Origin or,you know. Their brim or Boeing
or whatever, but, but thenthey'll go somewhere else and

(30:03):
start a company or or joinanother company, but, but that
has really, like I said, just inthe last five years, really
expanded the capabilities,because people are trying to,
you know, 3d print rockets andso many propulsion companies
have sprung up that are doingreally cool propulsion
technology and in autonomy and,you know, communications and all

(30:28):
kinds of the stuff that, youknow, if they had stayed at one
company, would have, wouldn'thave happened, and really would
have been one company's IP butnow they're, they're taking it
out, and they're in there anddeveloping their own
intellectual property. So that'sthat's really exciting to see,
and I'm really happy that that'sfinally happening.

I agree. And I think the private sector has
been very interesting. You know,I came at it from it being very
difficult in the 2010s to find ajob in aerospace engineering to
this new era where there's somuch of it, it's, it's a good,
it seems like a really goodhedge against the ever twisting

(31:11):
whims of the political, youknow, whoever is in charge, you
know, and, and the space programwas plagued with that, with
George Bush and in Justconstellation and, you know,
back and forth, where, where doyou see right now? This, this
private, public space programthat we have going on, what's
good about it? What'schallenging about it?

Yeah, I think the challenge that still exists
across most of the commercialspace industry is that not many
folks have proven that you canmake a really good business case
out of some of these. You know,more exciting, but more more

(31:54):
leading edge plans. Socommercial space stations,
fantastic idea needs to happen,absolutely but how many
companies can really make moneyin the near term doing that? I
don't know. I am so excited. Ican't wait to see how the lunar

(32:16):
infrastructure develops. I mean,that is absolutely necessary,
yeah, not just, you know,footprints and flags, but
actually developing habitats andpower systems, and, you know,
long term communication systemsall over the globe of the moon.
But can you make a business casefrom that? I don't know. Maybe

(32:38):
in the near term, maybe not.It's good that there are a
couple of billionaires, a fewbillionaires, involved in space.
There used to be a joke that ifyou want to be a millionaire in
space, you need to start as abillionaire.

But, you know, that doesn't know it was true
historically, that was correct.Yeah, now

it's not true, because they just keep making
more and more money in the otherside of the business. But no,
I'm clearly, you know, there arecompanies making money and and
companies are are successful,and that's great, because it
shows it can be done. But, butthey're making money in sort of
the standard ways, you know, theGetting Things in orbit, putting
satellites in orbit, you know,beaming internet down to earth

(33:23):
those more traditional ways. Ithink it's going to be quite a
few more years before we reallysee those more leading edge
technologies show prove a goodbusiness case. I don't know that
there's any small launchcompany, like truly small launch

(33:43):
company, that's really shownthat they can make money. I
think Rocket Lab is probably theclosest, but they're beyond what
I would call small and SpaceX.You know, they leaped past small
long time ago, but, but a lot ofthe companies who have been
trying to do small launch on asmaller scale. It's, you know,

(34:03):
it's hard to make money. So,yeah, all that stuff will get
fleshed out. And I would imaginethere'll be, you know, one or
two companies that that competein those different arenas, and
eventually we'll figure out howto make money. But that, to me,
is the biggest question. It'sgreat that there's so many
people with lots of money, notjust the billionaires, but the
venture capitalists and hedgefunds and whatever investing in

(34:27):
space that has, I mean, it'sjust blown my mind. How much
money is going into space now,and that is really, really
exciting, because that willeventually push things towards
making money, which obviouslymakes more things happen. But I
still think we're so so far onthe front. We're just barely on

(34:49):
the front end of this commercialwave into space, and absolutely
it's going to be, you know,space will be conquered by the.
By commercial entities. I thinkgovernment still will lead the
way in developing keytechnologies. I think that's a
key thing that NASA and othergovernment entities will do, no

(35:12):
matter what happens with withthe budget or whatever. I think
there's certain technologiesthat only government will be
willing to invest in, until therisk, you know, gets driven
down, but, but I think it lookslike commercial entities will,
will eventually be the ones to,you know, conquer the solar
system, so to speak.

Yeah, yeah. I definitely tend to agree with
that. And it's, it's interestingto see how space progress and
like chaos in society seems to,like be intertwined. We have
this thing called the Spaceconundrum, and, like, the first

(35:51):
cycle of that was obviously theApollo era, and how, the closer
we got to landing on the moon,the crazier things got in, just
like the world back on Earth.And it seems like we're on that
same cycle right now, but I feellike we're only in, like Gemini.
I feel like we've still got along way to go. So thinking of

(36:15):
that, and just like where we'regoing if the goal posts are the
Moon and Mars. How do youapproach that in your mind? Is
it? And I think I kind of heardit from what you were saying
before. Is it about using themoon as like a testing ground
for developing all thesetechnologies and then going to

(36:36):
Mars? Or do you just take it toMars and and give it a shot, or
something else I don't

know. Yeah, I so you're right. I did kind of show
my hand earlier. I I believeright now, and maybe my mind
gets changed in the next five or10 years, but I really believe,
after having looked at it prettyhard over the last seven plus
years, that going to the moonand establishing a a rhythm, a

(37:04):
cadence of of doing itsuccessfully, safely, and
putting in place a aninfrastructure. It doesn't have
to be a colony, but, but aninfrastructure with, you know,
power and calm and and habitatsand demonstrating, you know,
long term stays. This is, youknow, more than 30 days. This is

(37:27):
months. Yeah, I think that isreally key. I really do think we
can, we can use lunar resources.I don't know how quickly we can
turn lunar regolith intopropellant. I'm not convinced
that that that will happenreally, really quickly, but I
think there are some propellantsthat that can be made relatively

(37:50):
quickly, and maybe, you know,maybe those help us. But getting
to the Moon is about as hard interms of propulsion. You know,
energy getting from the Earth tothe Moon is about as hard as it
getting from the moon to Mars. Imean, it's, yeah, it's it.
There's so much of an advantageof starting at the moon and

(38:11):
going to Mars, or at leasthaving a lot of things pre in
place that at or around themoon, right? So I really
believe, believe in thatstrongly. I'm sure, whether it's
SpaceX or blue or or anothercompany. I'm sure somebody's
going to try to go to Mars, andit'll be a footprints in flags
mission. But, you know, I Iwould love for at least in

(38:37):
parallel, if not, if not first,let's show we can get to the
moon, let's do it the right way.You know, establish your
presence, establish a set ofrules on the moon that that all
the countries that that go tothe moon will will behave in a
reasonable way. I think there'sa lot of work to be done there,
of course, but then, but then,use that as a springboard. I'm

(38:59):
excited about nuclear propulsionand the potential for that
getting us to Mars quicker andmaking that trip a little less
daunting. But no matter, nomatter what propulsion we're
going to come up with in thenext 20 years, at least, it's
going to be a long mission andreally daunting from a human

(39:22):
health perspective and manyother things. So I'm just a moon
first advocate right now.

Yeah, I think moon first, or Moon and Mars,
makes a lot of sense, because,you know, you have a backup plan
that's within a rescue missionfor them, for the moon, that's
That's right off the bat, Ithink with the passing of the
ISS, which will happen at somepoint, where is our beacon of

(39:51):
international partnership, like,even with everything that's been
happening in the world here, thefact that we still had that
happening. Throughout all this,to me, at least, was like, man,
thank god this still exists. Youknow, it's an example of us
working together to survive. Doyou see an international moon

(40:15):
base happening?

Maybe, maybe that's a great question. I
really hope a lot of people aretalking about that because,
because that is reallyimportant, I agree with you.
It's been a fantasticdemonstration of how different
countries can work together on,you know, really hard things and
ignore the things going on onthe ground. You know, another

(40:37):
thing of getting out of gettingoff the ground, to gain some
perspective. Yeah, I do thinkso. When we were working on HLS,
we had international partners onour team. We were actively
looking at other internationalpartners to work with us on
things that will happen on themoon. And then, of course, the

(41:00):
mission required us to go to thegateway, and that has many
international partners involved.Now we'll see if that, if that,
you know, continues to be a partof the long term plan. But I
think the fact that it was sucha big part of Gateway signals
that most of the countries whoare investing significantly in

(41:22):
space know that they're going tohave to work together. So I
think that means whether it's aspace station at a Lagrange
point, or around the moon or onthe lunar surface, there has to
be government collaboration, andhonestly, Industry
Collaboration. It's, you know,yeah, there are a few companies

(41:44):
that have the books to do majorthings on their own, but there's
got to be standards established,and there's got to be ways that
we can work together. Becausethings like a lunar
infrastructure major, you know,space station and obviously, a
moon mission is going to requirea lot of different things that
multiple commercial entitiesneed to be involved in.

Yeah, absolutely. And so like looking
towards the future and kind oflike preparing this next
generation of STEM folks, theunconditional and stuff that you
you talked about and humanvalues. How important is that to
be taught in those fields? And Imean, to me, it feels like it

(42:31):
was not really a thing taughtwhen I went to school. And it
feels like a real I mean, it's,it's a good point for somebody
who has emotional intelligenceto go into those areas, because
they can be such a valuable andI think you'd mentioned, that's
kind of what you figured out.How important is that to teach
to that next generation? How dowe do that?

Yeah, I think it's critical. And so fortunately,
I've been, I've always beeninterested in both the hard
skills and the soft skills. Youknow, I've talked about left
side and right side of thebrain, even though that's not
really a thing. But you knowwhat? I mean? Yeah, that it
doesn't necessarily comenaturally, but I've always kind
of liked to be able to do bothon both sides. So so it's a

(43:16):
little more comfortable for meto get into that. It's
definitely not for everybody,and especially hard for for
engineers. You know,stereotypically, yeah, but as
you say, it's, it's way beyondaerospace, right? It's way
beyond just a an engineer'sproblem, or just a sign science
and technical person's problem.It's, it's an everybody issue.

(43:37):
To me, it's these kinds ofvalues which are apolitical. You
know, a religious they are notdenominational. They in my book,
I intentionally there's a lot oftalk about how religious
practices talk about theimportance of these values, but

(43:58):
it's all religions, right? It'snot, it's not just one. All
religions talk about theimportance of love and gratitude
and integrity and accountabilityand endeavor, and those things
should be taught in school froma very early age. You know,
those few of us who are who arefortunate enough to have great
parents and great home lives, weget taught most of those at

(44:21):
home. Hopefully, we still needmore, but there's so many people
who don't, and even for thosewho do, it needs to be
reinforced. So I, I've beenthinking about, you know, is
there something I can do? Andmaybe that leads to, leads me to
do something, you know, in mynext career, but in trying to
help instill these values in inthe lives of school kids, and

(44:45):
then, and then, obviously, highschool, college, and then when
people are in the workplace,there's there's so much that we
have to learn once we're in thethick of it, and at that time,
you. It makes it really hard togo discover integrity, right?

Yeah, you really late at that point. Yeah,

right. So I think it's really important. And like
I said, I'm thinking about whatdoes that mean for me going
forward, but, but I hope we,those of us who do know how
important the values are in ourlives, in any role we play,
whether it's in the workplace orat home or whatever, will

(45:29):
intentionally try to instillthese values in our in our
friends and our family and inourselves in particular.

Yeah. I mean, there's so many so little that
connects us these days that wehave like common ground on. And
I think the Apollo era had sucha unique effect of unifying
people. And I mean, you know, itwas an arms race, so I mean the
having a defense level budgetbehind it helps a ton, and the

(46:01):
nation's focus that's that'simportant. But when we are when
the accelerant for spaceprogress and our next space
cycle is the private sector,it's definitely something that
really needs to be hit on, andnot saying that the environment

(46:23):
during those early years washealthy in some areas. But you
know, in today's world, youtalked about the unconditional
as being like a life support forengineers, especially when, when
things get wrong, get tough. AndI know for me, some practice

(46:44):
I've put into place recentlydealing with some of these long
term, difficult engineeringproblems is a gratitude journal.
So three things before I go tobed, three things when I wake up
and it's it's been reallyimportant, I think, for me, and
I think this is true for a lotof engineers, being like some

(47:07):
self love, you know, you're socritical and like, you want to
put yourself through the ringerto solve the problem, right? And
I needed that. So it's great.Yeah,

that's a great practice. That's really great. I
totally agree with you. Yes, itis, without having the the
national, I guess, the nationalenergy behind, you know, the
space program, like we did inthe 60s. And, well, really the
60s, it kind of stopped beforegot to the 70s. Yeah, for the

(47:38):
most part. But, but yeah, itdefinitely, luckily, space isn't
terribly partisan. I mean, yeah,it's still partisan in some
ways, but, I mean, it's, it's alot less partisan than a lot of
things. So that's good, but,yeah, but yeah, like you say,
it's with it becoming more andmore private. You know, it's
focused on dollars rather thandoing the right thing,

(47:59):
necessarily. So it is importantfor us to make sure that these
values are instilled inindividuals, so that, hopefully
they take them to theorganizations that they're in.
Again, I think, starting at ayoung age, and instilling those
values so that. And the thingis, you know, I talk about this

(48:19):
in the book. I wish I could hitit even harder in the book, that
if you have these values, you'regoing to be successful, right?
Yeah, the point is the successof money and title and fame and
all that stuff that's notimportant. Some of that will
happen if you have these values,because you're naturally going
to be the kind of person thatpeople want to hire and that

(48:40):
people want to promote and thatpeople want to people want to be
in charge of teams, and peoplewant to put on the best
projects, but but the moreimportant thing is you'll have
that personal fulfillment andand feel good about it, because
you know you're doing it theright way, and everyone around
you will want to behave the wayyou're behaving. So again, I
just think having these valuesand still at an early age, but

(49:04):
but having them as a workplaceculture for these companies that
are trying to do these superhard things, and it's so easy to
make decisions that may not leadto the best outcomes if you're
not really paying attention.

Yeah, no, I I definitely agree with you on
that, and it's, it's definitelytough. I mean, it's not an easy
thing. And I think even the waythat things are, the way leaders
approach things, I think there'sa lot of leaders who don't focus
on any of those things thesedays. And I think part of it is,

(49:40):
we had our economy was reallygood for a while there. So I
think you could really squeezethe lemon for a while there.
And, yeah, I think

you can look, I mean, the economy can be great,
and people try to eke out thelast little bit, or the economy
can be bad, and people try to,you know, get, get theirs. I. I
think things can go wrong in anysituation, right? So that's why
it's important for it to beunconditional. It can't depend
on the external situation. Itcan't depend on what you're
going to get out of it. Youknow, accountability has to be

(50:16):
no matter what's going tohappen, I'm going to own it, and
good or bad, I'm going to ownit, I'm going to live with the
results, and then I'm going to,if it goes bad, I'm going to go
fix it. And so if it'sunconditional, then doesn't
matter what the economy isdoing, it doesn't matter what
other companies are doing, anddoesn't matter even what your
neighbors are doing, as long asyou're focused on I'm going to

(50:39):
do what's right no matter what.

Yeah, no, well said, well said, Tell me more
about the the process of thebook I was, I was writing that,

yeah, it was, it was fun. I like, I said, I do, I
do enjoy spending time on thehard skills and the soft skills,
you know, humanities and theengineering so, so for me, it's
fun. I had not ever writtensomething like this. I've, you
know, done other writing before,but very different, a lot of
research. So somebody else askedme a similar question, and I

(51:13):
said, you know, there's part ofit for me does require some
systematic thinking, the systemengineering that goes into, you
know, what are the requirements?And, you know, what are the
functions of each of theseparts, but, but it's what's all
the stuff that I want to, that Iwant to put together, and then,

(51:33):
how do I, how do I organize it?I really enjoy that. I enjoy
organizing things. I enjoyseeing the big picture, and then
seeing how it fits together. Soputting that outline together
that says, Okay, this is how, ina first cut, how it might flow.
And then I actually go to theother side, the more you know,
humanity side, emotional side,whatever, and start to just

(51:56):
write about this. And that'swhere you got to be a little
less analytical and a littlemore just let it go, let it
flow, yeah, and so there's someof that too. And then it goes
back and forth, you know, youlet it flow, and then you
realize that's a bunch ofgobbledygook, and you gotta, you
gotta do a little systematicwork again. But, yeah, that was

(52:19):
fun for me to be able to go backand forth. And I'm sure when
people look at the book and seehow I've organized it, they're
going to say, Oh, I see, yeah,that was an engineer, but, but
hopefully there's some otherstuff in it that that also does
get into the emotion and thephilosophy and some of the you
know, what's really importantfrom just a personal
perspective. And then, and then,when I got to the point of doing

(52:44):
the editing and actually goingthrough the self publishing
process and getting it out toall the online platforms and
available in physical stores andstuff that that's all new to me
as well. So that was fun.

Do you think being an engineer kind of
prepared you for the the gruntwork side of things, of just
like getting in there andsolving problems.

Absolutely, I know there, there are plenty of
engineers who don't necessarilylike getting into the weeds,
but, but, um, I, I think Iprobably learned early on, some
of my early career jobs were, Iwasn't a software engineer, but
I did a lot of coding to try toI was mainly focused in
propulsion, but did a lot ofmodeling and and analysis. So,

(53:28):
you know, getting into the codeand really finding, okay, where
are things going wrong. You knowthat that teaches you to dig in
and don't go home until it'sfixed, right? So, so I had a
good bit of that, and that'sjust sort of been part of the
way I do things. So Idefinitely, definitely don't

(53:50):
mind working hard when, when Iknow there's a good result
coming, right?

Yeah, no, that's and I think especially, having
gone for aerospace engineeringlike, you picked something that
was pretty grand in the schemeof things, you know, so, like,
the problem being so, like,enticing, if you will,

yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you
know, you knew this, you gothrough it's not just aerospace,
it's in the engineering, but youstruggle through it. It's really
hard. You feel great, you knowthat you've completed it, and
then you get out of theworkforce, and that's completely
different than what you studiedin school, right? But, but you
learned a lot of habits, inparticular, how to work hard,

(54:33):
how to know what you're going tospend time on. Hey, I've got
five things to do, but I've onlygot time to do two of them,
which to you know that that, tome, is as valuable as anything I
learned.

Yeah, yeah, someone was, I think it was a
comedy bit about engineers, butthey mentioned that engineers
keep the world moving. And Ithink that's like a pretty good
way of explaining, like the thespeed and also the you. A
totality of what you need to doto, like, go make this problem

(55:04):
work, you know, right,

right? Yeah, yeah. We may be to blame for, you
know, things going too fast and,you know, things getting too
complicated, but, but, yes, wedo keep things moving,

yeah. And that seems to be the posture that I
think you kind of have to takeas the engineers, like, it's
okay if you're telling me toback off a little bit like we're
in a good spot,

yeah, absolutely.

For those who are looking to get into the
space industry, do you have anyadvice for them?

I can speak from the perspective of a person
who's hired many engineers, likeI said, the things that I looked
for were, you know, good worthwork ethic, which usually shows
up in at least decent grades,but then pretty well rounded,
willing to be involved in anumber of things, you know,
beyond just School and then, andthen show a passion for or a

(56:03):
real interest in space, youknow, hey, I was part of the
club, you know, maybe I was achemical engineer, but I was
part of the space hardware club,or I was part of the rocket
team. And, you know, I've goneto hear lectures by astronauts
or, you know, have gone to theSpace and Rocket Center 100

(56:24):
times, whatever it is thatshows, hey, you're really
interested in this, and thatmakes it likely that you're
going to invest yourself in thejob. And then, you know, of
course, EQ matters. So, youknow, is the person going to be
able to get along with the team,and is the person going to going
to be able to deal with workingextra hours when it's necessary?

(56:48):
And, you know, all those kindsof things, but in general, I
think, you know, show thatyou're you got a good work
ethic, you're well rounded, andin particular, that you have an
interest in what you're goingafter.

Yeah, yeah, no, thank you. I think that's,
that's really good advice.There's a lot of things I'd like
to ask you to close out, but canyou talk to me a little bit more
about your journey? Like, wantto be an astronaut? I think we
were going to touch a little bitmore on that. Yeah.

So, yeah, interesting story. So the after
my sophomore year college, I wasable to do an internship at NASA
Langley in in Virginia, and wasworking for a guy who was
actually part of the MarsPathfinder team and so great
mentor, and I was runningtrajectories for going to Mars

(57:40):
and stuff, but I, at that time,wanted to be an astronaut still,
and I thought, hey, what bettertime to find out what it really
takes? I'm just going to callthe astronaut doctor. So this
was before the internet. I mean,before the internet was

(58:01):
available. If I could, yeah,yeah, Google it. You know, I
literally had to use phone booksand in search through, you know,
the NASA Johnson line, until Igot but I got to the doctor, and
I kind of knew this going in,but, but my eyes weren't,
weren't good enough, and at thetime, still, you had to have

(58:21):
pretty good vision, and mineweren't close. So, you know, I
was devastated. You know, itwas, it was open and closed. No,
no question. You couldn't haveLASIK back then. That wasn't
allowed, yeah, so, so that wasit. And luckily, I was, you
know, I was working on this coolproject with a cool guy and in a
great team. And it was kind of,it didn't take too long for me

(58:44):
to say, Okay, this is not a badbackup option. I'll stick with
it. And that was, you know,that's been a good decision. But
more recently, I was here inHuntsville at a dinner, and Mike
Massimino was keynote speaker,and he came and spoke. And, you

(59:05):
know, he's fantastic speaker.He's great and all of us got a
copy of one of his books. Thebook is, I think, Spaceman,
great book. I mean, hispersonality comes out in the
pages, so it's worth reading.But he talks in the book about,
you know, he always wanted to bean astronaut, and he went to
NASA Johnson and did a ton ofstuff there, but he was rejected

(59:28):
for his vision. But what he didwas train his eyes to get
better. And he did it again andagain and again again. I mean, I
don't remember how long it took,but it wasn't overnight, but he
trained his eyes to be able topass the test. And I kind of
looked at that, you know, thisis many years after being

(59:49):
rejected myself. And I kind oflooked at that and said, you
know, Mike's purpose wasstronger than mine. You know, he
had really invested in. Himselfso much in wanting to be an
astronaut that he was willing togo do everything it took, and he
did it, and worked on the HubbleSpace Telescope and all that I

(01:00:14):
wasn't willing to do that, youknow, my purpose wasn't strong
enough to be an astronaut, and Isort of, you know, tongue in
cheek in the book say, you know,I had a problem. I had a vision
problem. My eyes weren't goodenough, but my vision for being
an astronaut wasn't strongenough either. And, you know,

(01:00:35):
it's a good lesson for me. Imean, I've had a fantastic
career. I wouldn't trade it,but, you know, I would say to
people, if that's something thatyou really, really want to do,
and that really is your dream,you got to go all the way. It
doesn't mean you'll get it, butyou'll have a better chance. And
for Mike, you know, he dideventually get it. So I, I

(01:00:56):
thought that was a great story.Love reading about Mike and
seeing his success, but it's, itwas a great reminder to me that,
you know, I could have donethings differently, and, you
know, might have been able to bean astronaut. Who

Today In Space (01:01:09):
knows, yeah, well, with with the way that
things have kind of evolved,especially the term astronaut. I
mean, as we start to figure outwhat more types of people can do
to go into space? If that opensup, are you down? I

Andy Crocker (01:01:27):
am always down. I have always been down. I, you
know, don't tell my wife. Butif, if there were an opportunity
to go to Mars and not come back,I would probably do it. But
going to the moon absolutely,you know, and as soon as I can
afford it, and don't have towait in a line a million people

(01:01:47):
long, I'll buy a ticket to go onone of these other missions. So,
yes, down every day of the weekand can't wait. I hope I can do
it in my lifetime, but, but I'mexcited that so many other
people will be able to

Yeah, so one last thing, so you mentioned the
you want to go to Mars and staythere? Could you get a little
bit more on the why? Because Ilove hearing people, you know,
that want to go. I think it's socool. I

if I had that opportunity, I would hope I were
a little bit older, so that Iwould have, you know, lived more
in my life, and I could say,okay, you know, this is, this is
a good way to go if you got togo, no better way to go than
this. But no, I doing somethingthat's never been done before.
You know, even if it takes yourlife, I don't know that just

(01:02:38):
it's been a dream of mine to bean astronaut. And, you know,
thinking about space for 30years and all those things, it
just that, to me, is kind of theculmination. So, like I said, my
family probably wouldn't agree,and probably wouldn't let me go,
but they probably shoot me inthe leg, so I couldn't go, but,
but, you know, I it does notshock me at all that many people

(01:03:02):
have have signed up for previousmissions that were to go to Mars
and not come back. It doesn'tsurprise me. Yeah. I mean, I
would probably do

it, yeah. I mean, talk about being in the
record books. I mean, like thefirst people that came to
America. I mean, that's kind ofit feels like the polar right,
like,

yeah, for me, it's not even about the record book
so much. It's just just theexperience. I mean, yeah, you
know, I would hope that would atleast have the opportunity to to
provide back to earth what thatexperience is like, because I'd
hate to have to just keep it tomyself, right? But that
experience and being able toshare it with others, that

(01:03:43):
that's me, is worth it. Whocares what the record books say?

Yeah, yeah. I think, I think that is really
cool. And so we interviewed DrSarah Lynn mark, right, yeah.
And she that's what she wassaying, was her recommendation
was the people that should go onthose first ministers to Mars,
or people that have lived theirlife, have lived their life are
in and are in that older stageof life, because you know the

(01:04:08):
long term effects of space,right? You will have naturally,
probably passed away at at thatpoint when those are a thing. So
you kind of fit. And eventhinking about sending a team,
there's definitely a challengeof sending someone with youth to
to Mars, you know, just asurvival thing. And, right?

(01:04:29):
Yeah, so I think

there's, I've seen stories about that too, and very
often it says, you know, sendpeople in their 50s. And I'm
like, Hey, that's not that oldanymore, but, but you know,
people who've lived their liveseven. And maybe I'm wrong, but I
feel like I've seen things thatsay the the expected effects of
radiation on older people areare less than on younger people.

(01:04:51):
But in any case, just as yousaid, the fact that, you know,
maybe we don't feel as bad if,if these people have lived full
lives on the earth and. Sopresumably, if they get selected
for a Mars mission, they willhave, but yeah, people are going
to want to go for the samereasons that I said, and
probably others.

Yeah, no, I think that's that's super cool.
Well, Andy, thank you forjoining me on the podcast and
sharing your story. And yeah,absolutely. Is there anything
last minute that you want tolast thoughts that you want to
share?

Well, thanks for the opportunity. Now, we covered
everything that that I wouldhave hoped and more, and you and
I, I'm sure it could talk fordays on these topics. I
certainly can talk about spaceforever. I'd love for people to
to check out more about thebook, you can go to Andy
crockerbooks.com and find a linkthere to find the book pretty

(01:05:47):
much anywhere, but yeah, checkit out. There's there's space
stories and a lot about valuesthat that I think will really
matter to a lot of people.

Thank you so much for coming on and and
folks, thank you for joining us.This has been another episode of
people of space and of Today InSpace, so thanks for joining us.
Stay curious, spread love,spread science, and we'll see
you on the next episode. See ya.

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NASA's Human Landing System, Core Values, and 'The Unconditionals' | Andy Crocker | People of Space

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}NASA's Human Landing System, Core Values, and 'The Unconditionals' | Andy Crocker | People of Space