When AI Meets a Lunar Position System? Autonomously Deployable GPS on the Moon w/ NAVXCOM Co-Founders

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to today in space. We'reback for another episode. As

(00:03):
always, I am your space sciencepodcast host from the East
Coast, Alex giorfanos, and thisweek, we are talking to two
young co founders of a companycalled navexcom. I just wanted
to thank the team for reachingout for wanting to be on the
podcast. We love talking tothese young companies that are
just starting out and of anysize, right? And it there's so

(00:27):
much that needs to be done inspace, and one of the things
that we can do here on thepodcast is bring those
conversations to you so you canhear about these different
companies, so that thesecompanies have a chance to get
out there and talk about theirmessage, and just so that we all
get a better idea of what's outthere in the industry. For
anyone that is new to thispodcast, I went to school for
aerospace engineering, and youknow, when I first was trying to

(00:51):
get out into the workforce, Ididn't have many examples of
what was out there, thedifferent companies, the
different jobs, anything likethat. And after doing this
podcast and talking to peoplelike Matt and Luca here, we're
going to talk in a second. Youget to find out more about the
industry and the different pathsthere are. And this is a really

(01:12):
unique one. They both theseguys, have had great experience
within NASA, and now they'retaking that experience outside.
They just have a greatunderstanding of how the
industry works today, I amreally excited to bring this
conversation to you. We thankyou for joining us here on today
in space and as always, pleasemake sure to follow us on social
media, whether it's today inspace pod on X, Twitter or

(01:35):
Instagram, there's today inspace on Tiktok, and then, of
course, we've got our email attodayinspacepodcast@gmail.com so
go check those out. Make sure tosubscribe to the show. Share it
with friends or anyone elsewho's a space nerd or even just
a casual space enthusiast.There's room here for all of us
in our mission to spread loveand spread science. So without

(01:58):
further ado, please welcome Lucaand Matt, the co founders of
navxcom, for an episode ofpeople of science. Let's get to
know them and a little about thecompany's mission and what they
could do for the future of lunartravel. Thanks for joining us.

(02:21):
Welcome everybody to anotherepisode of today in space. We're
here today to talk about thenext stages of going to the
moon, and we're going to talk tosome people who are working on
the next thing that we need upthere. And there's many things
we need in the moon. It is suchan uncharted place for us as
humans, we've haven't been therein a long time, and the last

(02:43):
time we were there, we were onlythere for a short stay. So if
we're going to be there longterm, if we're going to live and
work in space on a daily basis,we need things like
infrastructure. And there's somany things that we need. And
today, our guests from navexcom,the co founders, welcome to the
podcast, gentlemen, pleaseintroduce yourselves and thank

(03:04):
you for joining us. Yeah,
thank you so much for having us.My name is Matthew Onassis. I'm
one of the co founders ofnavixcom, and I am going to be
the CEO of the company once thecompany is larger, and that
makes sense. So a little bitbackground about myself. I had
my Bachelors in tourismmanagement and masters in space

(03:28):
operations, so I thought thatwould be a cool amalgamation of
the two for space tourism, but Iam mostly passionate about Deep
Space infrastructure, and that'swhy we have navixcom. Luke. Do
you want to introduce yourselfreal quick?
Absolutely. Yeah, hello. Thankyou for the introduction. My

(03:51):
name is Luca and but you cancall me Luke. I am one of the co
founders of navixcom, and I'malso going to be the COO once
the company is going to be largeenough little bit of background
about myself. I have abachelor's degree in
astrophysics, and I come from aresource background, and so my
passion is just understandinguniverse and getting there to

(04:14):
answer the big questions.
And it was great, you know, yourteam reached out to us here, and
we got to have a little bit ofchat beforehand and get to know
each other. And I got to say wewe really connected in a lot of
really cool things about wherethe future of space could go and
what you guys are working on. Sobefore we get started, because

(04:34):
we want to learn more about youand your stem origin stories.
Tell us about navscom. What isit? What are you guys trying to
solve? And what's your missionhere?
Sure, Luke, do you want toanswer that? Or do you
want so now, some was bornwithin the NASA environment.
That's where Matt and I met, andthat's where we identified the

(04:56):
gap that NASA was trying to fillwith. The lunatic
infrastructure. NASA definedlunat as a set of standardized
rules as to like what we'regoing to need, an infrastructure
in terms of like networking fornavigation and communication on
demand. And so we came up withthis idea. And after NASA

(05:20):
experience was over, we decidedto open a company and take it to
the next level, being for acontract at NASA Marshall Space
Flight Center. And we actuallywon that contract, and we are
working with them to establishthe first proof of concept,
which is going to be done by theend of this year.
That's awesome. So let's breakthat down real quick. So you

(05:41):
guys met in a NASA internshipprogram. Is that correct?
Yes, correct, yes. Could
you guys tell me a little bitabout that experience? I feel
like that's such a cool pathwayfor people to to enter NASA and
then have these opportunitieslike you guys are having right
now.
Sure, yeah, I think NASA has atleast dozens of different

(06:05):
internship programs, if youwill, through universities,
through directly, throughthemselves, and also some other,
I guess, larger companies, let'ssay, for example, fellowships if
you want to study for your PhD,for example. So I think there

(06:25):
are the opportunities are huge,and pretty much everyone who
wants to get there and learn howNASA does things in terms of
programmatics as well as likeSTEM related activities you can
definitely get there. It's not,it's not a matter of, like, if

(06:46):
you see someone who's done aninternship at NASA, that doesn't
necessarily mean that person isjust super unique or, you know,
a super smart person. It's justa matter of, hey, do you want to
learn? Do you want to challengeyourself or not. So we've done
it. We've actually done both twointernships, and that was kind

(07:06):
of like a collaboration withArizona State University. So
we've done one internship, whichwas about proposal writing. And
you know what? What? What? Iguess, like elements of the
proposals are, and how theyevaluate each proposal,

(07:28):
regardless of what level it is,even if it's like you want to
get some sort of contract withDOD, is very important to learn
how these contracts work,especially for people with STEM
background that they don't have,you know, business background.
They don't know much aboutfinance and program management
and stuff like that. So that wasfantastic for those groups,

(07:50):
those group of people who werevery technical, and they've
learned they were actuallysurprised, of like, how
important it is to include yourprogram management, your
schedule, your budget and stufflike that. And for the most
part, those people who are atNASA or anywhere else evaluating

(08:12):
those kind of like proposals orcontracts, if you will, they
It's very surprising for thosepeople to know how important it
is to include those kind of nontechnical elements to your
proposals. And a lot of peoplewho are evaluating these things,
they're actually theseproposals. They actually don't

(08:32):
have that much of background in,let's say, physics or
mathematics or something, orthey might just have some sort
of background in one branch ofSTEM, but not on the other, on
the other. So that's why it's soimportant to know how to write
proposals. I guess you got toknow what technical writing is

(08:54):
and stuff like that. So that wasone of the internships that
we've done. And then the secondone was more technical. So we
work on this project, which now,we took it to navixcom and we
were continuing it so, but Ithink the base of it, if I'm not
mistaken, that was about series,right? Luke,

(09:21):
Sarah's the assignment. Oh, no,that was, I think we worked on
two different projects, becauseI worked on planetary defense,
um, but, and you worked like, inthe exploration of, like,
Sarah's for men. Well, not Sarahman, that's from, that's from
Jupiter, um, the that was anopportunity to learn how NASA

(09:44):
creates missions from the groundup and how they are executed,
which was very interesting. Wehad the opportunity to talk to
people in the sector, both likegovernment and commercial. So it
was an amazing opportunity tolearn. And then we took it to
the next. Step was when weproposed our own idea, and it

(10:04):
got approved, and then wedecided to go into the industry
route and start the company thatproposed it. That's
pretty cool. I mean, you guysbasically got, like, incubator
trading, right? Like you'rebasically prepping for what you
guys are doing right now. Sothat's, that's very cool,

(10:26):
exactly,
I actually incorporated a lot ofthose, I guess, those things
that we've learned through theinternship, and we're, you know,
we're using a lot of thoseconcepts, a lot of those Excel
sheets, and, yeah, you know,those things that we already
got, we saved them up, and we'renow, you know, reusing them,
especially for lesserprogrammatic for the budget

(10:49):
side. They're super cool. Youknow, Excel sheets with a lot of
experience that NASA for, forthe past, like 4050, years, they
were putting into this kind oflike Excel sheets to see how
much of you know how you have tomanage your budget, what are the
elements and how you're gonnaprevent, you know, going over

(11:09):
budget and stuff like that. Sothese are, like, absolutely free
tools that we got that we couldjust work in some companies for
10 years to learn these things.And we just learned that in like
eight months of doing thatinternship with NASA. So it's
extremely important, actually,to do this kind of internships
free of free of charge, and youknow, in a very short period of

(11:30):
time you're going to get there,
yeah, and you've made therelationships on the inside, and
you know how to speak thelanguage for for funding, which
is, it's just a, it's a wholeother world, like you guys were
saying,
yeah, absolutely,
yeah. That's how we got, like,our food, empty door, like to
prefer a proposal, because whatwe do is actually, this is still

(11:52):
like a fully funded NASA projectfor now. So the principal
investigator is actually a NASAperson right now, and we got the
phone door because, I mean, thedirector of the program that we
did to internship in is actuallythe CTO of NASA Marshall Space

(12:12):
Flight Center beyond Dancarriage. So, yeah, we contacted
every NASA center in the nation.And, I mean, as soon as we
contacted like NASA Marshall andJohn and kind of said, Okay, I
can get you guys and you can getand see if you if you guys can

(12:33):
run,
that's awesome. Tell me aboutthe the period of transitioning
out of the program and takingthe project to become navexcom.
What was that like? Was there aspecific day or a moment where
you both it just clicked for youguys? Or Had this been brewing
for a while?

(12:54):
Um, I think after the program, Ijust reached out to Matt on
LinkedIn, and I said I wanted totake it to the next level, and I
must just, like, message theteam members, and must be like,
yeah, sure, we can keep workingon it. But like, you know, not
asking it. They were not askingit as math, so not just, like, I

(13:15):
messaged him and maybe I took itto the next level. And he's
like, okay, let's, let's start acompany. Let's, let's go, like,
full throttle on it. And I waslike, Yeah, this is, this is
exactly what we need. And Istarted looking, yeah. I started
looking for contracts rightaway. And there was the Center
Innovation Fund, which was, yougot sorry, because we finished

(13:39):
in May. And so, yeah, we startedcontacting NASA centers, and
NASA Marshall responded, and wehad the opportunity to bid with
them the technology in terms of,like, the where we developed in
the six months, and that monththat I worked on the technology,

(14:00):
like, really mature andimproved, because, I mean, to be
presented on a proposal, it hadto be, like, completely, like,
more, way more granular and waymore detailed. So yeah, like,
Monday's a nice research andlike, writing down the sections
of proposals and scrapping withthem, doing it again. And, yeah,

(14:24):
so, yeah, we just submitted it.It was a two phase proposal,
which I think it's lessstressful in
a sense. And what does a twophase proposal mean?
Basically, just either yougotta, it's like you either get
through phase one and you canaccess phase two, or if you

(14:44):
don't get through phase one, youyou're done, basically.
But I said funding, like gatedin that, like, if you get to
phase one, you unlock, you know,more funding for phase two or
No, usually you're you're out.If the in the in the. Early
stages of a two phase proposal.If you don't pass phase one,

(15:05):
you're out. But I think, okay,it's more you have the
opportunity. After you passphase one, you get feedback, and
you have the opportunity, likein Preview proposal, even
further for phase two. So evenwhen you start the project, you
start a project with moreconfidence, and you would have
just from directly Phase Oneproposal, gotcha.

(15:27):
Yeah, I think that was not asurprise for me, because I I've
always wanted to become an astroentrepreneur, um, so I actually
started another um company, nota corporation. And and I just
didn't have nobody to help mewith. So I started working on,

(15:48):
you know, the finance, you know,the business plan, then putting
the pieces together and lookingfor funds. And then at that
time, Luke just sent me thismessage. And actually, he sent
that message to pretty mucheveryone in that group that we
were, I think we were a group oflike eight, or something like
that. And so everybody justpulled back, and then we just

(16:12):
stayed in the company. We werewaiting a long time for a lot of
other folks to join us whenwe're doing the, you know, we're
opening the LLC, and nobodywanted to join so for whatever
reason. But we just kept going,kept going, kept going, and we
got better and better, you know,stronger. We tackled a lot of

(16:35):
issues, a lot of bottleneck thatwe had, and we learned a lot. So
we're not perfect. Still, wewill never be perfect. Nobody's
going to be perfect. Never,ever. But it's just a matter of
tackling those issues andsolving the challenges that
appear. And yeah, like I said,even if someone has 4050, years

(16:58):
of experience as a CEO of acompany that is still tackling
issues in a daily basis, andthat's the whole thing, maybe,
maybe that would be at adifferent level, maybe, you
know, at a different magnitude,but we're getting there. We're
definitely getting there.Especially me, I'm coming from a
business background for more,more than a decade, so I've been

(17:21):
through all these kind of issuesbefore, so I know, but this is
kind of something new for me.Aerospace is new, and that's
going to be the home for meforever, and I will never, ever,
ever be able to transition toanother industry. Anyone who
transitions to the spaceindustry never, ever want to

(17:41):
just pull back and go to anotherindustry. It's just, it's just,
it's just so awesome. And likewe meant, like we were talking
about before, the space industryis not boring at all. Maybe,
maybe you're working on some forsome people, maybe satellite
industry is a little bit boringin some, some part of it, but

(18:02):
for the most part, especially ifyou're getting into lunar
operations, human spaceflight.Like, who gets bored of human
spaceflight? Yeah,
totally, totally. I It's so muchfun to see how much things have
changed in 10 years. I think wehad talked about that before,
like when I was looking intowhen I was in my aerospace

(18:24):
engineering degree, 2008 2000you know, to 15. Like there was,
we lost the big program of thespace shuttle, and then there
really wasn't anything, youknow, we're still figuring it
out afterwards. And you thinkabout where we are today, where
we've got rapidly reusablerockets launching almost, you
know what? Three times a weekout of Florida. And, I mean, we

(18:47):
have so many spacecraft to keeptrack of. It's, it's, it's
amazing, you know? So what is itright now that excites you the
most about the space industry?
Me, personally, is that we canfeel that we're in into like an
into the dawn of like a new erafor humanity. We're starting to

(19:11):
our journey towards becominglike a multi planetary species,
and we're saying the first scamsto get there. The government are
set on it and the industry isset on it. There's a lot of
synergy going on between thesetwo words, which were, like,
very different, just in water,yeah, yeah. Now there's starting

(19:36):
to be a lot of like, synergythings like NASA and other like
government branches are like,starting to like, fund more and
more startups to create, tolike, have a pool of like
different ideas and differentlike angles to like, tackle
problems, and so yeah, these arevery these are definitely, like,

(19:56):
very exciting times, and to be apart of it and to be developing
something. As significantlyimportant as, like the lunar air
net and like GPS, which, likeGPS now the crap where we
actually called it LPs, Lunaposition system. It's not
trademark, but nice.
I like LPs. That's
without our sign, without oursign. Yeah, I think, yeah. I

(20:22):
think we're in a pivotal moment.As Luke mentioned, just like,
you know, 20 some 30 years ago,that internet was nothing and no
one thought that, you know,internet is going to be, you
know, the new name enabler. Webelieve, and I personally
strongly believe that we're inthat moment. We're in that

(20:44):
pivotal moment that in the nextfive to 10 years, if, if you're
not getting into the spaceindustry, it's going to be too
late. So that's what we'regetting in there. And I think a
lot of greatest stuff are goingto happen in the next, like I
mentioned, five to 10 years. Soif you're getting now, you're

(21:05):
going to be one of the majorplayers in the in the future. It
doesn't mean that at that time,no one's going to be able to get
there, but it's just going to bemuch, much harder. So get your
feet there as soon as possible.It's going to be pivotal.
There's going to be an evolutionin terms of industries. And I
think that's the, that's thefinal destiny for humans that we

(21:27):
want to be among stars. Andwe're getting there. We're
still, you know, type zerocivilization. But I don't, I
don't think, you know type onecivilization is going to be too
far. People are talking about1000 years or something like
that. Some people more realistic100 years. But I think it's
going to be much, much, much,much earlier than that. I think

(21:48):
the next 30 to 50 years, we'regoing to get there with with the
rapid changes in technology,especially AI. But yeah, it's
very exciting, super exciting.Yeah,
so, I mean, there's so much togo off of that, but I wanted to
just go back to this, just tomake sure we we gave it its
time. So, lunar positioning,right? GPS on the moon, internet

(22:13):
connectivity. Where is it at?Now, I'm sure I could give an
explanation of it. I know we'vetalked about it before, but I'd
love to know you guys areworking on the problem. Where is
the moon today? As far as thatstuff,
yeah, as far as, like, thecurrent, like state of the art.
I mean, there's now, there's nosignificant state of the art to

(22:34):
relate to. And we kind of lookedat what happened with like,
recent learner missions, wheresome unfortunately, like they
land the wrong spot and theytipped over some like
instrumentation was not able tocomplete their experience. Um,
so as far as like navigate, evenfor Mars, and navigation is done

(22:55):
through like, either likeDoppler effects, or signal gets
sent back to Earth or visually.And that is, yeah, and that is
not the most efficient way to gofor like autonomous operation,
especially if we want to go bigscale, for big scale, like

(23:15):
colonization, we need preciseGPS and demands like support
autonomous operation, and also,like, autonomous spacecraft
landing on site to, like, ensurethat the colonization happens in
a fast and secure way.
Yeah, routines, I think we'renot worried about, you know,
launch pads getting blown upbecause it didn't hit it, right,

(23:39):
or anything like that? Yeah,
yeah, sure. I think that eventhe current, the current
infrastructure, I think it's noteven supporting the current
missions, let alone the futuremissions that hundreds of
companies and countries andagencies, they're going to be
collaborating we see that. Wesee that that's our, you know,
we envision in the future.That's the whole thing. If you

(24:02):
can envision the future, youwill definitely be a part of it,
because you know the value, youknow what's going to happen, and
you will get there. So yeah, Imean the current, like I said,
the current infrastructuredoesn't even handle that, let
alone the future operations. Andthat's why we found this gap in
the lunanet framework, and we'refailing it. There are so many

(24:27):
other competitors, actually. Wedon't really like to call them
competitors. We actually want towork with everyone. But there's
so many other, I guess,solutions that better word, but
they're not there quite yet, andI think they will get there, but
without a system, without asurface system, like our

(24:49):
systems, it's just theoperations are not going to be
efficient, and not manycompanies, and you know,
countries cannot collaboratewith each other if. Efficiently.
So, you know, at that cost thatwe're developing these systems
is definitely, definitelyenabling a lot of new companies
also coming to the to the, youknow, lunar operations and in

(25:14):
the lunar economy. So, yeah,definitely, like, like I
mentioned, there is noinfrastructure so far built into
the navigation andcommunication, especially not in
the navigation part of it, somaybe a little bit of
communication here and there,surface to surface, I'm sorry,
not surface to surface, butsurface to satellites and those

(25:38):
kind of lacklustercommunications with delay and
kilobyte per second of datatransfer rates. But yeah, we're
talking about gigabits,gigabytes per second per client.
So yeah,
that's that is a real, real stepforward. I mean, I think if I

(25:59):
remember the story correctly,during the Artemis mission.
Artemis one, they released a fewCubeSats, and even those
CubeSats over helped overwhelmthe Deep Space Network. At one
point they fixed it. But, like,that's kind of the level where
we're at. It's just like, youknow, I think we're seeing some

(26:20):
of this in the US. You know,there's certain places where
you're just seeing roads havecompletely fallen apart. We've
seen bridges fall apart here,you know, like infrastructure
and keeping that stuff up is onething, but when you don't even
have it to then maintain it,it's a whole other thing. So
going back to the ground basedtech, can you dig a little bit

(26:41):
more into the approach that youguys are taking that makes it
different than everybody else,
definitely. So what all wants todo is get fully autonomous, so
fully autonomous deployment, sothat it can prepare the timeline
and prepare you, likely, on asurface for like, ultimately for

(27:02):
like, arrival. So basically,like seaport operations, where
they will need to be done,either like Southport or like
one of the seas on the near sideof the land, or even the
proposed telescope on the farside of the main that's very
that's very exciting, but whatwe want to do is, like an

(27:24):
autonomous deployment, so nohuman is going to be required
to, like, set up theinfrastructure, and it's going
to be able to, yeah, and it'sgoing to be able to support like
operations autonomously andGetting like, even habitats
ready for, like, human arrival,and also for human arrival,

(27:45):
making sure, like, thespacecraft is going to land
very, very safely on a preparedlaunch pad. Yeah, that's, that's
probably very important.
No, that's, that's great. Ithink so much of the, you know,
going to the moon, and even theargument, you know, against

(28:05):
something like going to Marswas, you know, the equation was
always, well, you have to buildeverything and send humans and
put them together. It'd be niceif you had a rover. But, you
know, building a MarsExploration Rover each time is
just not, you know, feasiblefor, for scaling all of this. So

(28:26):
what is, what is the autonomousstuff look like right now, in
your planning stages, are we?Are we launching, say, a swarm
of these in a payload? Are theythat small? What are we looking
at?
Yeah, that's kind of the ideawhat we're going to be
providing, aside from like thelike etch modes, it's going to

(28:49):
be a central mode, which isgoing to like, support computing
power on lunar surface. And it'sgoing to create a cloud
environment where all missionsare going to be supported. And
more than a cloud environment,this is going to create an
ecosystem, standardizedecosystem, which is what NASA
wants with lunar program. Andit's going to be able to

(29:11):
communicate with orbiters suchas like lunar gateway,
initially, and then hopefullylike more. But to like to first
deploy a system, it's betterlike to be ground based,
because, you know, it provideslike, full coverage of a
specific area. And yeah, and so,yeah, yeah, the creation of this

(29:35):
ecosystem is very important tolike Foster, like collaboration
between like, differentcommercial entities, but also
different governments. We wantto like, we started like, we got
registered. And the USA,European Space Agency earlier
this year, they have anotherprogram. And what we want to do
is, like, bring everyonetogether within lunar net so

(29:58):
that we don't have discrepancy.Use just like, what happened
with like, I think it was thenine use the GPS in GALILEO that
the United States had to sendrepresentatives around Europe to
tell everyone, please use theGPS that we have in place. Don't
use your system. We, yeah,ideally, we don't want that to

(30:19):
happen again. Furthermore, it'sgood for redundancies, but it's
good to, like all collaborate ona single system, to be in peace,
in place. Yeah, definitely, oursystems are scalable. So we're
starting with five or six. We'restill not 100% sure, but we're
working on it five or six roversthat they have antennas on it.

(30:44):
So we don't really want to callthem rovers, because it's very
confusing, so we call themmobile stations. But then, but
then, yes. So the way that oursoftware architecture works is
that it's autonomous and it'sscalable. It's autonomously
scalable, and we can add as manyas these rovers as possible, as

(31:06):
we wish. So if, if the, let'ssay, there are more operations
on the other side of the moon,and we just want to expand it,
we can definitely expand itdepending on, you know, what
range we're going to be getting.We're still doing more, you
know, R and D on, on the range,because, you know, the
environment is very different onthe moon. So the range that we

(31:28):
get on Earth is probably goingto be a little bit different.
We're not 100% sure how,exactly, how different in terms
of, you know, how manykilometers is going to be
reduced, but we definitely havesome benchmark data to go based

(31:49):
on. So, yeah, we definitely canexpand the system as much as we
want and create more redundancy,adds more mobile stations. We're
adding, we also, we're alsogoing to have redundancy in the
central communication server,which is the main, the brain of
the system, even though that'sthe single source of truth in

(32:12):
our architecture. But we haveredundancy, so automatically
switch to the other one. But,yeah,
that's really cool. I mean, oneof the things that I've thought
about with, you know, we'retaking these first big steps
right of, of making thisroutine. And one thing we've
talked about here in the podcastis the the space conundrum, you

(32:32):
know, and and when things, forwhatever reason, seem to be
going more chaotic in real life,like during the first space race
we had, you know, the Cold War.We had a lot of civil rights
stuff happening in the country,and then we also had all of this
stuff happening in space. Idon't know why the two are
related, but progress and chaosin life seem to be, seem to be

(32:54):
related. And so this idea ofhaving consistent funding over
and over again to have, youknow, the perfect program to set
up, you know, what you wouldideally want to do, which is
kind of what the Apollo programwas so lucky in that it had, it
had the, the, you know, nationaldefense budget behind it, so

(33:17):
they could do so much. But eventhat ran out. So my point of
bringing that up is, the waythat you guys are introducing
the system, is it, it doesn'trequire some huge Goliath thing
that we're trying to, you know,lurch forward into the future,
set up the perfect network. Youguys are setting up something

(33:38):
that can build over time andand, of course, stop me if I'm
wrong. But if you guys aredoing, you know, the same
platform as, say, what SpaceXand Starlink and these types of
things, which is less expensivetech that allows for, you know,
mass scaling of it. But you canalso, if the program has a

(33:59):
moment where, let's say, fundingis drier. We have to select and
focus. You guys can drop GPS orLPS wherever you know the
mission is going to be, whetherit's just the South Pole, you
know, instead of sending a wholebunch of satellites that are
going to, you know, Stripe outthe whole moon in order to
provide coverage, that's a lotof satellites to launch, as

(34:21):
opposed to, you know, a fewmobile platforms on the surface
where you need it. I thinkthat's really cool for mission
architecture, you know, planningin the future,
yeah, yeah. That's great. That'sthe whole idea. Yeah, as we
said, this is, this is finallyenvisioned to like perpendic

(34:43):
timeline, and then it needs tolike it's designed to be
integrated, either like moremobile stations, more platforms
and future olders around them.So the architecture is like i.
Very reliant on artificialintelligence, and works so that

(35:05):
this is a system that, like yousaid, built over time, because
it learns, the more it is on themoon surface, the more it learns
how to adapt. And this is, thisis interesting, because, since
the central, center othercomputational power is going to
be located at the essentialnode. If an orbiter connects to

(35:27):
a network, they're going to beable to, like, utilize the same
and learn from the same datathat our system has learned over
time. And so they're going tobe, yeah, so they're going to
connect to the networking bemore ready to go. So, yeah, this
is something that operates verymuch like the human brain.

(35:50):
I think NASA recognizes actuallythis need, even long before us,
they had, they felt this need.But lucky for us, no one has
ever designed any system for it,because no one has ever taken
this seriously. Like youmentioned, we're going to be
needing between 20 to 50satellites. And look at the cost

(36:13):
of building such satellite to,you know, being in lunar orbits,
it's not just like in Leo oryou're just park it in geo and
you don't really need that muchof fuel to burn for lunar
missions. You're going to beneeding huge amount of fuel to
stay, to stay in the in the inthe orbit and building those

(36:35):
swarm of satellites. It's justnot going to be economically
feasible, and that's why NASAknows this. However, like I
mentioned, those satellites, andhopefully also the lunar gateway
is going to be there in a coupleof years from now, those are
going to be very, verybeneficial in terms of the

(36:58):
routing of the of the databetween Earth and the Moon. So
even though we're also workingon laser communication, but for
redundancy purposes, and maybenot only for redundancy
purposes, but also maybe thereare some other not maybe, but
for sure, there are some otheruse cases of satellites being

(37:20):
complimentary to our system. So,right, yeah, definitely,
definitely has to be acollaboration. And that's the
whole thing. We're trying to getmore companies and people into
the industry to collaborate, andbasically that's how we how we
make money. We connect all ofthem together, and by creating

(37:42):
that collaboration, that thatenvironment, that ecosystem, as
Luke mentioned, we can makemoney off of that. And that's,
that's basically, you know, whatother companies they want. They
want collaboration. If there isone company drilling, but they
don't have the technology to,let's say, use it for some

(38:02):
reason, maybe they would justdrill it, analyze the regolith,
and that's it. But what ifanother company can come in and,
you know, do something withthat? They can they can drill,
they can extract some, you know,precious material, and then
another company will just useit. So there is going to be a
lot of communication betweenthem. And think about that

(38:24):
communication of like peoplesitting on the on on, you know,
in the ground segment on Earth,and just deciding, okay, what
should I do with this? Let mejust go to my c3 which is c2 or
c3 command and control asoftware and just click on this
one, like manually, just to go,Okay, let's just go x, x, I

(38:45):
don't know, x, y, let's go twofeet, and now wait like two
minutes to see what happens. Sowe just like automating all that
process together so companies,they can, they can, you know,
collaborate without any delay,without any I guess, like you
know, extra costs, rather thanthe price that they pay for our

(39:09):
systems, which are going to bevery small and minuscule,
compared to if they wanted todevelop it themselves. So even
if they wanted to developsomething, let's say it will
just cost them 3040, $50 millionmore, because now they have to
develop a better, let's say,thermal system or power, you
know, power system, BMS and allthose kind of subsystems that

(39:31):
they have to upskill, becausenow they have a much, you know,
larger data handling systems andcommunication system, more
expensive antennas, and so onand so forth. So we're just
providing them with that.Instead of spending $50 million
on R and D and, you know,manufacturing, we're only
charging a few million dollars.But also, in addition to that,

(39:54):
we're enabling them tocollaborate with other
companies, which they couldn'tdo even if they built the best
communication. Navigation systemfor themselves. They still
couldn't connect with othercompanies. So we also actually
prevent disasters. So if anotherrover, if they're closed, let's
say there are some missions thatare closed, they're nearby, not

(40:16):
a mission they have, like a,let's say a rover that is moving
and another rover comes in andcollide with that which is a
which is a possibility in the inthe future, in the next, let's
say 1015, 20 years, that's goingto be a possibility. There are
going to be hundreds, if not1000s, of rovers just roving
around. So there has to be asingle source of truth to

(40:36):
monitor all these things andmake sure, making sure that with
that planning that they have,like I mentioned, it's not going
to be like, hey, push a buttonand just, like, on Mars, let's
just go, like, 10 feet forwardand then stop, go to the left or
something. It's just going tobe, it's going to be real time.
So they're going to beautonomously moving. So we've
got to make sure that we'remonitoring that. And actually,

(41:01):
we're not monitoring that, butwe're giving this feature to our
customers, and, you know,agencies, let's say Space Force
and NASA, to also monitor themand control them if necessary.
And
I, just as you were explainingthat, I just realized that, you
know, once you have this netdown on the ground, it can move
and adjust, you know, along theway that's, that's a whole other

(41:24):
capability that's such a simplething that we don't really have
that often. And and the idearight now of, you know, even how
I believe this is how it workstoday, but, you know, satellite
detection and stuff right nowand managing all that traffic up
there, you know, if there isn'tgood communication between the

(41:45):
different groups, a disastercould happen. And so, you know,
going on the moon, and you'vegot this mix of private and
public, and then publicly fundedprivate companies, and all the
different scenarios that is, alot of of different systems that
could exist. And so think aboutthe problem now, where we have

(42:06):
near misses with organizationsthat are trained to work
together. What happens later?When? When this boom happens and
and we're playing catch up thewhole time?
Yeah, that's also like mothernamed illustrator, sometimes,
like two units, they mustcommunicate, and they end up
like in the same place, becausethere's no single, single social

(42:29):
truth, like client anything.They operate on different
frequencies. Well, that's that'swhere our topic is, and that's
for safety reasons, but yeah, ithappens in that environment, and
we definitely don't want that tohappen on them when there's
like, millions, if not billions,of dollars of equipment going
around. We don't want to, like,waste it on car crash. So we we

(42:54):
want to, like, prevent that.Yeah and yeah, we want to
prevent we're going to do forcompanies like, provide, like an
abstraction, like, byabstraction. And, you know, when
we driving our car, we don'tneed to know how the car works.
We just turn on and drive. Andthat's what we want to provide
for companies. Just like, youknow, plug in into the system

(43:17):
and and play. So plug
in and play Exactly,
yeah. We use that word a lot ofjust plug in play. We try to
make everything plug in and playjust as simple as possible. The
smallest things are like,
Yeah. And it feels like, onceyou guys get enough people using
it, I mean, I would think thenext stage is especially since

(43:40):
you know, you'd be workingwithin a somewhat NASA
infrastructure, at least withthem, like then NASA could start
recommending that on anyspacecraft that go out there, so
it becomes a requirement for,you know, a certain type of
funding or a program orsomething like that. Absolutely,
absolutely, that's what we'reaiming towards, and that that's
what NASA's looking for. So,yeah, this is going to be like,

(44:05):
the direction that theirenvironment is going to is going
to go on.
Well, I want to touch back onthe AI aspect, because I think,
I mean, it's in the lexicon,it's in the zeitgeist. It's, you
know, the one thing we don'twant it to become is magic,
right? So that's not scientific,and the more we can understand

(44:28):
it, the more we can do with it.So right now, are you guys
building out artificialintelligence that you're
prompting and and learningcurrently, or is that still
something in development?
Um, development? I'd say we'redeveloping it, but we've
actually successfully deployedit like, as we said previously,

(44:51):
we're doing something thatoperates very similar to a
brain, so it is predictable, andI don't think it's ever going to
be not predictable. Open thatcase, because for it to be not
predictable, you need like, ahuge data center and a huge data
center on site thatcommunicates, like, continuously
with it. And that's not going tobe the case on the data center

(45:14):
is going to be enough to supportoperations, and then the rest of
the computing power is going tobe jumped back on Earth, but
it's going to be updated. Like,updates are going to be done,
like remotely, so we will alwaysbe able to control what's going
on, so and also what we want towe have, like, a prevention

(45:37):
measure in place that is called,like, just a button. I put it in
zombie ads, so that kind of justdoesn't, like start running by
by itself. And so, yeah, it'svery it's very centralized, and
it's very secure, in terms of,like, AI is something that can
learn from the environment, notsomething that necessarily like

(45:59):
things for itself. It'ssomething that becomes more and
smarter, and yeah,
we're also very big oncybersecurity, and we have a
great team. So yeah, we'redefinitely incorporating a lot
of their experience into oursystems, and we just want to

(46:20):
make sure that our systems areas infallible as possible. There
is not such a system as likesecure, 100% secure, unless you
just lock it down, which, inthis case, probably not going to
happen. But we have some ideasof how to lock it down in a way
that it will only provide thosekind of local internet for

(46:44):
users, and then it will beconnected to Earth through a
different channel. And then thatchannel cannot just access the
data of our of our clientseasily. So we're working on that
is still on progress. Is stillin progress. And, you know, R
and D phase, but, yeah, we'remaking a lot of progress on

(47:06):
that.
That's cool. I mean, the more Ilearn and and read about AI and
use AI tools, like we'll beusing that for for this podcast,
to to help me with editing. Youknow, from a from an individual
perspective, it's already beenan invaluable tool. I mean, I've
saved hours of my my weekpreparing for the show thanks

(47:28):
to, thanks to AI tools, and tothink about what it could do for
space travel. You know, wealways had, you know, the ship
is a computer that speaks toyou, you know, like, that's a
pretty classic sci fi trope. Andto think now, you know, there
would be all these different aisthat could potentially merge

(47:50):
into, you know, whatever ends uprunning, or maybe they all work
together on that system thatthat keeps us alive as we're in
space, to think about how muchwork is and collaboration is
going to go into that, and whatcomes out of that that keeps us
alive in space is kind of kindof crazy to think about.

(48:12):
Yeah, I think it's an integralpart of this space, you know,
space technologies. It in thefuture, we're just going to see
huge, you know, progress on likeAI and machine learning. And I
think without it, we definitelycannot be achieving what we want
to achieve to, you know, put amillion people on on Mars, and,

(48:36):
you know, traveling between, youknow, four months to nine
months, depending what kind oftechnology we're going to be
having. And still, you know,even if it's one week, you need
AI to accommodate you on boardin terms of entertainment, in
terms of, let's say, keeping youalive, in terms of closed loop
ECLS system, because, for themost part, you just cannot have

(48:58):
like a life support system thatis just open, like an ISS, for
example. So without AI having aclue, a loop closure, ACLs
system is almost impossible. Itis definitely possible, but it's
just not going to be asefficient and probably going to
be very costly. It's going totake a lot of space, and so on

(49:19):
and so forth. So yeah, AI isdefinitely going to help
tremendously in the couple inthe coming years. So yeah,
definitely,
yeah. The thing with AI is thatit simplifies things and
incentivize like usage ofsomething, like anything. So
that's what we're movingtowards, because it's efficient

(49:42):
and it works even likecomputationally, most AI based
solutions, at least for ourbranches of research, are more
efficient than like algorithmicsolutions and thinking in the
broader spectrum. And so that'salso why, one of the reasons why

(50:04):
everything's going up towards AIand also towards like, launching
each given,
yeah, and you mentioned, youmentioned something about like,
you're personally using it. Soyou know, for example, in
generative AI, like chat, GPTis, is very efficient, but it
makes a lot of mistakes. So nowyou got to find that balance of

(50:27):
reliability versus efficiency.We haven't even got there yet.
And as you can see, you know inchat GPT, we just always say
that chat GPT can make mistakes.And I think that's gonna that's
going to be like this for thenext, like decade or so. We're
not going to have a perfect AIsystem. We're still going to

(50:48):
improve it improve, especiallyin generative AI, which is going
to be integrated into, let'ssay, spaceships, to talk to
someone, right? You don't wantto be in isolation. You want to
talk to someone. And probably AIis just going to make a lot of
sense in in that realm, in termsof astronauts of cognitive
health. So, but we're definitelynot going to get there earlier

(51:13):
than, let's say, a decade fromnow or so, to have a perfect
system that doesn't make anysort of mistake, because even
one mistake out of 1 millionanswers, or something like that
can be devastating, especiallyif you're talking about non
generative AI that is designingat rocket. And, you know, I
think, I think I can talk aboutthat, because now that asked me

(51:36):
anything from the new CEO ofBlue Origin was, was published.
So someone just asked the newCEO, hey, do we are we going to
have, like, AI implemented into,like, our manufacturing system?
And he said, Yeah, definitely.We're working on that to make

(51:57):
that a reality of you know, AIwill just design the rockets and
find the most, I guess, like themost efficient way of achieving
something. And as you can see,even without AI, where we're
achieving a lot of progress. Idon't know if you send the new
engines of starship, if I'm notmistaken, the version three,

(52:21):
yeah? So super Yeah, raptorthree ones. They're super, super
slick. And, you know, all thatredundancy, all those tubes and
everything is just gone. Thinkabout AI saying that, Oh,
actually, you don't even needhalf of it. You can just achieve
the same thing. Or, even better,if you're just doing it this
way, and that would be in just amatter of few minutes, that it

(52:44):
will just make that decision,design everything for you. So
yeah, we're definitely going tosee a lot of changes, but in my
opinion, it's just not going tohappen because of the mistakes
that AI is making. Yeah,
and I definitely the curveball Idid not expect when it first
came out was that it would givean answer just because it was
asked to give an answer, youknow. And essentially, I don't

(53:06):
think it was doing a purpose,but it lied to us, you know. So
it's, it's an interestingchallenge that I never would
have expected out of somethingin my mind of AI, and, you know,
I'm still playing with thisthought, but I wanted to know
what you guys think about,especially since you guys are
involved in in developing yourown, you know, I think with

(53:29):
generative AI right now,there's, we talk about the
single source of truth, or justtruth in general. Think AI
proposes a very strangechallenge for all of us as it
gets better and better. I mean,I saw a video again. I don't
even know if it's real, but Isaw a video that someone posted
that was entirely AI generated,no voice, but it was a woman who

(53:50):
was talking on stage, and I keptlooking for flaws, and I
couldn't find one. So what doyou guys think about something
like a tagging system like, Ithink I've already seen it. I
know on YouTube, you need to tagif there's AI generation, it's a

(54:11):
weird problem, right? Because insome ways, I think it's good for
everyone to know like this, youknow, might as well get the
credit, right? It was generatedby AI, and we're kind of in this
training race of data for allthese machine learning systems.
Do you think it's a good thingto tag everything that's AI on

(54:31):
the internet as AI? Or what doyou guys even think about that
proposal? It's an idea I'mthrowing out there.
I personally think it's correctbecause, I mean, there's a huge
problem that we're trying totackle as as humans, I would
say, regarding with the ethicsof AI right now. I mean,
companies have been trying todevelop, like Amazon and

(54:54):
Microsoft have been trying todevelop AI systems, and
sometimes they have to scrap.Project, because, I mean, AI
with was, like running intoproblems and like not being able
to, like, break from, likesocial stigmas, and, you know,
because the day I was being fedup to was, like, faulty, and,

(55:19):
well, I wouldn't say faulty,even if you polish it, you try
to polish it as much as you can.Yeah, it's, it's biased from
like, what's been going on,like, in our society. So in case
of, like, an AI for HR, andsometimes there's been cases
where the AI used to like favor,I know, why women candidates,

(55:45):
and that's that's not fair, andthat is something that needs to
be, like, addressed by inregards to the ethics of AI and
Congress is actually working onit. And like taught, these are
some institutions are workingdays and nights like, tackle
this problem. Because, I mean,AI is getting developed

(56:05):
regardless, because it's a hugesource of, like, income for
companies. And, you know, it'ssomething, it's something
generates revenue. There's gonnabe some people that don't care
about the ethics behind it, andif, yeah, and if we want, like,
if we generate an AI, I wouldn'tsay like evil, because, I mean,

(56:26):
it's got no feelings, but whichis faulty, which is, which makes
bias decisions, that's, that'sdangerous, or what I could, it
could become also like, if thatdata gets sold To like, to
generate, like, depending onyour AI and so on so forth.
Like, the escalation could belike, exponential. So, yeah, we

(56:47):
need to be careful about that.Regarding videos, that's, I
think that's just, that's,that's slightly simpler matter
it, I think it needs to betagged as, like, AI generated,
because, I mean, we're not goingto be able to like tell the
difference, and it can be usedfor like in that cases. And

(57:09):
that's something that shouldlike start from. Like the AI
generation tool that generatescontent that is not correct, it
should recognize that thecontent is not sound good, and
it should not make that contentto like to start with. And also
the platforms in which thiscontent is shared on, they

(57:33):
should be able to like monitorall of this. So, yeah, at least
for now, it should be monitors.Yeah, generally, I don't know,
European Union, I don't
think there is any tool as oftoday that can recognize, like a
counter AI that can recognize,you know, an AI generated

(57:56):
content. Of course, there are alot of patterns. For example, in
chat GPT, you see chatgpt, GPTwill never just say hey. There
are some contracts such as thisand that. It will always say
like, so this like, and then itwill just continue. And there

(58:17):
are a lot of commas, and thenings and things like that. There
are some patterns in chat GPT,especially in the previous, you
know, versions, but it's gettingbetter and better, and I don't
think anyone can actually likebuild, I guess, a tool that can
recognize it, if someone coulddo so, in a way that can catch

(58:40):
up with the speed of developmentof AI? That would be a
brilliant, brilliant idea and agreat business idea, that you
can make billions of dollars outof it. But I don't think there
is any way to catch up as ofnow, maybe you could. And I
remember Elon Musk's, I think itwas Tesla. I think it was first.

(59:05):
It was space Six's YouTubechannel that got hacked, and
yeah, and then it was Tesla acouple of weeks ago, I think two
weeks ago, or something likethat. And it's just so surreal,
like Elon is just talking, justso surreal, until you just

(59:26):
notice that these are scammers.For a lot of people, they don't
actually recognize it. A lot ofpeople, and I've been watching a
lot of these videos that arejust busting these scammers,
specifically in India, butthey're making billions, and
that's an issue. So that AI isgetting into that industry as
well, to the scamming industry,and I think it's going to be

(59:49):
huge. So I mean, if you have anidea that can recognize this
kind of like aI generatedcontent or phone calls or
something like that, you're abillionaire, maybe a
trillionaire. Yeah, yeah, you
heard it here, folks. So if youwant to jump on that, go for it.
I'm too busy. But yeah, it's,it's fascinating, and, you know,

(01:00:10):
it, it really makes me thinkabout the the core of it, right?
We talked about that earlier,that we've got problems with
this being biased, and at theend of the day, you know, we're
the creators of it, and we'rebiased. So how, how unbiased Can
we really expect AI to become,especially in the early days,

(01:00:31):
it's just so interesting, likeeven now, when I when I search
for something on a browser, youknow, the first thing that pops
up is the AI explanation, and Iam doing my best to scroll past
that every single time, becauseI just don't want, it's just
not, I don't trust that data setyet. And that's just the
engineer in me, you know? AndI'm, I'm glad that people are

(01:00:54):
trying to, to push it, to to getthis revenue generation going.
But you know, the people thatare writing it and the people
that are driving it, you know,it'll be interesting to see if
we can get more and more peopleto talk about their, maybe
philosophies behind it. I thinkthat could be really, really

(01:01:15):
beneficial just to help peopleunderstand. It's assuming people
want people want people tounderstand, but that's a whole
that's a whole other topic. Whatelse guys What? What else would
you guys like to close with? Isthere anything else in the short
term that navixcom is looking todo, anything the folks can look
forward to or maybe help joinin?

(01:01:40):
Guess. Now I was going to saythat we are working really hard
to get as many as you know,passionate people and new
startups to, you know, join our,I guess, collaborative efforts

(01:02:02):
for the infrastructure,especially, you know, those,
those of younger generationsthat they're brilliant, they
have amazing ideas, but they'rejust as scared that, hey, how
can I just manage a company likespace companies? It just
requires dozens of millions ofdollars to do something? No, it
doesn't. You can just get usstarted with something like SBIR

(01:02:22):
and, you know, build yourbusiness based on that. So we,
we are really working hard onthat. But also we're also
working on some othertechnologies besides this Lunar,
you know, NAVCOM system, kindof, some of them are related,
and we can incorporate it to ourecosystem, but some of them are

(01:02:45):
completely separate from fromthe lunar applications. So after
all, we're a navigation andcommunication company, and not
specifically to space, but we'resuper passionate about space,
and I think even this lunarapplications that we're that
we're developing, they have adual use, if not, you know,

(01:03:05):
triple use on on Earth, on Marsand also on the moon. So I don't
know if you have ever heardabout network in a box
technologies that they doactually have them. We do
actually have them on Earth.It's mostly used for GPS denied
environments. So our system willjust improve that network in a

(01:03:27):
box, functionalities that wecurrently have, especially as
Luke mentioned, the the youknow, the autonomous deployment
of it in some areas that youknow, humans can get there, but
rovers can or some othersystems, maybe drones can get on
Earth. So our networkarchitecture or software, and

(01:03:51):
also our hardware can justimprove that those kind of
systems on Earth as well. Sowe're working diligently on this
project, but also on otherprojects to, you know, solve
other problems that no one hasever solved, and we're finding
gaps when filling them up. Someof these ideas, some of these
technologies, they're inideation, some of them, they're

(01:04:13):
in development, and some of themsuper close to
commercialization. In just acouple of months, we're gonna
release two products that wehave. We're working with an R
and D company, and these are,you know, significant changes in
the in the state of art, and wehope that, you know, the revenue

(01:04:34):
that we get from those kind ofproducts or services help us
just develop these lunarapplications, lunar NAVCOM
system. So, yeah, we're workingreally hard on that, and we're
not going to stop we're going todo it. A lot of other companies
and countries and organizations,they're going to join us, and

(01:04:55):
we're going to see a very brightfuture in the space industry.
Yeah. And this is also, like,the beauty of, like, space
research, because, I mean, theother project that we're working
on, like spin offs from, like,the space technology that we're
developing. So it was, I don'tknow if it's true anymore, but
it was saying that $1 investedin space brings back $10 a

(01:05:16):
night. Yeah, and yeah, I heardthat one too. Yeah, I don't know
if it's true anymore, but maybeit's even higher because of
inflation. But the Yeah, like,investment in space brings like,
because, I mean, it's such adifferent angle to, like, tackle
technology problems that thenyou can just apply it on Earth

(01:05:39):
and be like, Oh, this is waymore this way faster. So, like,
integrated way easier, way morecustomer friendly, like, anyone
can use it. So, yeah, there's agreat spin off. So of course,
commercializing is a whole otherchallenge, and we're also
working on that. But it's greatthat space for research funding

(01:06:02):
gets these opportunities to ushere on our future benefit like
life like every day, and notjust like life like five years
from now, necessarily, right?Yeah, yeah. I
think that's one of thechallenges with a lot of space
technology. And I think we livein an age right now where, you
know, you've got SpaceX is, islaunching more things into space

(01:06:26):
than we've ever launched before,just by itself. But then it's
also putting up satellitesthat's helping, you know, people
get internet in some places,it's cheaper to have Starlink in
some places, you know, you youbasically would need satellite
internet anyways. And they're,they're able to deploy it. I
mean, it's going to, you know,places that have natural
disasters, obviously, inUkraine, it was deployed. So,

(01:06:49):
you know, it's, it's touchingeverything, and it's, it's
helping fund the future programsthat they're going to do in
space. So I love that you guysare doing that and providing
value today instead of waitingfor tomorrow, which is, I think,
very new in the space industry.
Yeah, definitely.

(01:07:10):
Well, cool guys. Any last wordsfor the folks out there? This
was a absolute pleasure. I wantto have you guys back on again
when you guys have thoseproducts out. But yeah, any any
last words,
I guess from me it would be um,like I mentioned before, please,
please, if you have ideas, bringit on. Um. Just search for

(01:07:34):
programs that NASA has, forexample, or DOD SBIR
Technologies, a lot of them fromAir Force to Space Force. That
you can bid on those you canlearn how to write proposals, or
you can there are some othercompanies that they will write
the proposals for. You just signan NDA with them. They will take

(01:07:54):
care of everything, and there isa very high chance that you're
going to win those contracts. Asan example, SBIR will give you
$150,000 roughly. Some others,let's say sometimes maybe
$250,000 or army. But ingeneral, you will get about a
million bucks to develop yourideas and commercialize them.
And then also the government,especially in this realm, NASA,

(01:08:18):
will just help you commercializeit and then connect you with the
industry leaders to developthose and commercialize them to
a point that it will contributeto the economy on Earth and also
in space. So yet, definitely getthere. Like if you have ideas,
please, please bring it on.Start your own company. It's not

(01:08:38):
that difficult. Just watch acouple of YouTube videos, chat
GPT, will help tremendously.There you go. And, yeah,
definitely, please, please getinvolved. And let's just build a
better future for humanity.
Yeah, yeah. Starting at startingis not difficult. To keep going

(01:09:01):
as like, that's, that's, that'sa different fact, and that's
where, like, you see differentsome like companies that succeed
and fail, but also likeindividuals that succeed and
fail. Um, so yeah, definitelyeither like anything, like from
starting a company throughanything. Just get started and

(01:09:22):
then just keep going. And yeah,trust, trust your vision. And
yeah, have numbers, don't quit.That helps. And so yeah,
just don't quit. Yeah, just keepgoing. Keep going. If you if you
feel like your ideas areworthwhile, they will fill gaps.

(01:09:43):
Go for it. Don't quit. Just beresilient. Push and, you know,
be coherent, and you're gonnaget there. Definitely there
that. The cool fact about thenew space, and some people call
it space 3.0 and some others,they just go to like, eight.
Open. The cool fact is that, youknow, not even the sky is the

(01:10:08):
limit, the space is the limit.You can. You can make money off
of pretty much everything inspace, especially in the new
space, there are so muchopportunities, so much you can,
you can open an ice cream shopon the moon. I'm kidding. But
anything that, anything that canscientifically works, like you

(01:10:30):
can just develop something onthe moon. Let's say you're just
developing, you know, let's sayhabitats, or something like
that. They're not going to beonly one company, company X
developing yet. They're, youknow, the US government,
especially NASA, is going tocreate redundancy. For sure. You

(01:10:51):
know, they're going to, they'regoing to make sure that there
are multiple, multiple, youknow, companies, multiple
providers. And that's just the,I guess the government side of
it, but in the commercial side,completely independent from from
the government, there are stilla lot of opportunities, actually
more opportunities than whatNASA will allow and sponsors,

(01:11:14):
for example, or supports. Soyet, I mean, this space is the
limit. Just come up with anidea, amazing ideas, that is
doable, both scientifically andin, you know, in terms of like
do ability, in terms of likeengineering side, but also in
terms of the financial side ofit. To see, is it like feasible

(01:11:37):
to make money off of this? Howmuch would it cost to develop
this and over time, just takingall these things into
consideration. And if youbelieve that you can make money
off of it, that's probably thenext brilliant idea. And that's
the company that VCs, they liketo call them unicorn. So yeah,
definitely you're going to be aunicorn if you have a great idea
and you go for it and push forit and don't quit

(01:11:59):
well on those amazing words ofencouragement, folks. Thank you
so much for joining us today,and Matt and Luke. Thank you so
much for coming on and sharingyour your your origin stories.
And really, you know about navexcalm and what you guys are
working on. We wish you guys allthe luck, and we can't wait to
see what you guys are in sixmonths a year. And you know, if,

(01:12:22):
if space is the limit, as far aswe know, it's infinite. So
that's, that's your answer.Don't, don't underestimate
yourself. Or what's what'spossible we don't even know yet.
So thank you guys so much forbeing on the podcast. Thank
you for having my pleasure.Thank
you so much for inviting us.
Absolutely, absolutely Wellfolks, spread love and spread

(01:12:43):
science. Have a good one, andwe'll see you on the next
episode of today in space. Seeya

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