Operation Custody

One day in January 2009, 91-year-old Selma “Sally” Hill was not answering her phone calls, which was very unusual for her. Sally’s life partner, Lester, had a daily habit of speaking with Sally at 4:00 pm each day. When Sally didn’t answer Lester’s calls on January 7, 2009, Lester became concerned. He called Sally’s grandson Eric, who later showed up at Sally’s house to find Lester’s family waiting and worrying outside. While they waited, Eric went inside the house to search for his grandmother, but he could not find her. As Sally did not drive, it made no sense for her not to be at home.

Join us at the quiet end for Operation Custody. Eric and his young daughter had been living with Sally since Eric and his wife separated. A heated custody battle for their young daughter had gone on for some time, but what happened that January day would shock everyone involved and end in unforeseeable violence.

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Sources

Defendant Seeks Separate Trial from Wife, Daughter in Dublin Murder Case, Patch.com, 3-7-2011, https://patch.com/california/dublin/defendant-seeks-separate-trial-from-wife-daughter-in-1ac34c3606, retrieved 4-8-2025.

Killing for Custody, Worst Ex Ever, Netflix, retrieved 4-8-2025.

People v. Hill, California Court of Appeals, Decision date 4-16-2025, retrieved 4-9-2025.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
True Crime Brewery contains disturbing content related to real life crimes.
Medical information is opinion based on facts of a crime
and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment.
Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to True Crime Brewery.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
I'm Jill and I'm Dick.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
So one day in January of two thousand and nine,
ninety one year old Selma Sally Hill was not answering
her phone calls, and this was very unusual for her.
Sally had a life partner, Leicester, and they had a
daily habit of speaking with each other at four pm
each day, So when Sally didn't answer Lester's calls on

(00:53):
January seventh, two thousand and nine, Leicester became concerned pretty quickly.
He called Sally's grand son, Eric, who later showed up
at Sally's house to find Lester's family waiting and worrying outside.
While they waited, Eric went inside the house to search
for his grandmother, but he couldn't find her. So as
Sally didn't drive, it made absolutely no sense for her

(01:17):
not to be at home. Join us at the Quiet
End for Operation custody. Eric and his young daughter had
been living with Sally since Eric and his wife had separated.
A heated custody battle for their young daughter had gone
on for some time, but what happened that January day
would shock everyone involved, and that day would end in

(01:38):
unforeseeable violence. So before we talk about violence and blood
and horrible things, we always open our beers.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
And this is a good work. Yeah, you're gonna like this.
This is a beer called Details and Dialects, brewed by
Bottle of Logic from Anaheim, California. I like the name.
It's a nice name. This is an American strong ale
and it's a heavy hitter. It's fourteen percent alcohol by vobe.
So we're going to be sharing this with everybody.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
And napping afterwards. At least I will be.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, we'll take it a little snooze, Okay. So this
is a murky brown collared beer tinge of red, small
tan head. Not that much to look at, but it
gets better. The aroma is peaches, fresh peaches, cinnamon, vanilla,
a little bit of booze there, and then the taste
follows the nose and really peach just explodes in the mouth,

(02:31):
really great. Cinnamon and vanilla are very complimentary to it.
A little bit of a Barrel Presence is an all
star beer.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Great, so barrel presence. I'm thinking woody right, Okay, okay, woody, okay,
all right, Dicky, Well I'm ready open it up.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
Okay, okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Down here at the quiet end, I'd just like to
thank Becks for this episode. She recommended this case to us.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
I believe so she did.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
So why don't you start us out?

Speaker 3 (03:16):
All right, We'll start with Selma Sally. She was born
to Matilda and Oliver Home in May nineteen seventeen. She
grew up on a farm in North Dakota with twelve
siblings and a time and place where most women were
settling down and starting their own families at a young age.
Sally was always an independent, independent person who wanted to

(03:37):
see some of the world and have a job of
her own. So at twenty years of age, Sally moved
away to California. That's a big jump, right, Yeah, it's
from North Dakota.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think it's very bold for that day and age. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
So she worked as a cosmetologist before marrying Lyman Hill
in nineteen forty.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, so she didn't wait that long. She did settle down.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Nearly soon she was what twenty three.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, that's pretty young.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
And at the beginning of World War two, Lyman served
in the Armed Forces and Sally helped the country's war
effort by working for him the post office. Sally was
an upbeat person with many friends. She had a son,
Gregory Hill, and the family moved to Dublin, Ohio, and
after Sally got older and her husband passed away, she
spent a lot of time with her son Greg's family.

(04:22):
She would become especially close with her grandson Eric and
eventually Eric's young daughter Elizabeth. So in her eighties, Sally
found herself a companion who loved her very much, and
that was Lester Rowe, and they would be together for
over a decade.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
So I think that's really nice, because it's really I'm
sure it's not easy to find someone that you click
with at that age. No, there aren't a lot of
lucky theft. Yeah, it really is, and they seem to
really care about each other. So, Sally's grandson, Eric was
a shy, nerdy guy who liked to play video games
with his best friend Ryan, and the two slightly awkward

(04:59):
but smart gus mostly liked to play Xbox and PlayStation together.
Ryan would say that Eric was an all around good guy,
quiet but very kind, and it would be hard to
imagine anyone having a problem with Eric just because he
would really just go out of his way for anyone
in need. He was non judgmental, and he'd been through

(05:20):
enough of his own personal struggles to empathize with other people.
So Eric really felt like his life was getting on
track in the early two thousands when he began working
for the Alameda County Social Services Office in Oakland, California.
Eric was an eligibility technician, and that's someone who's responsible
for determining the eligibility of individuals and families for public

(05:44):
assistance programs. So really kind like his grandmother, Eric liked
the idea of helping people in need on this kind
of large scale. It was a challenging position, as he
had to understand the regulations, the policies, and procedures everything
that would govern public assistance programs like Medicaid, but Eric

(06:04):
did find this job very enjoyable. So at the Social
Service's office, Eric worked alongside a fun, friendly older woman
named may Lee. May was more outgoing than Eric, so
she had many friends in the office, and in October
of two thousand and two, May invited Eric to go
on a hike with her and some of their coworkers.

(06:26):
So when May showed up to pick up Eric on
the morning of the hike, her daughter, Rosa was driving,
and that's when Eric met Rosa for the first time.
Rosa was smart, and she worked as an engineer at
a tech company. She was very analytical, and Eric was
just fascinated by her. He really couldn't believe that she
really seemed to like him, and he was so impressed

(06:48):
with her. She told him all about her experiences working
in Silicon Valley, and she laughed when he told her jokes,
which you know, not a lot of people did. He
wasn't the funniest, but even his kind of silly dad
jokes she seemed to enjoy.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
So that seems like they hit it off pretty well.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
They hit it off pretty much immediately to hear Eric tell.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
It, Yeah, well, Eric is pretty naive. Eric was naive
with ye women. It sounds like he was not real
good with the opposite sex, really not real good. Just
had no experience, no experience at all.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Really, Yeah, his dad would say that, Yeah, that's true.
So they're on this hike and they really seem to
connect and he ended up spending most of the day
talking with her, just the two of them. So he
felt really lucky because Rosa was smart, pretty, and she
really was paying a lot of attention to him, so
it was almost immediate that he was attracted to her.

(07:43):
Like you said, he had very little to no experience
with women. In fact, his father would say he'd never
had a girlfriend before Rosa, so he really had to
work up his courage to ask Rosa out on a date,
and he was thrilled when she said yes. Their first
date went really well, and then they began seeing a
lot of each other for the next few months. They

(08:06):
had a lot of fun together, going to dinners and movies,
and they even took a couple of trips together.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Eric's best friend Ryan saw that Eric was happy, almost giddy,
and he was happy for him. Eric's dad, Greg, was
also happy for his son. Eric seemed happier than he
had been in a long time, and he was inexperienced socially,
but his relationship with Rosa seemed to become serious pretty quickly.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Now.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
When Greg met Rosa, he did find her to be
a bit odd. He would ask her a question and
she would cup her mouth and whisper the answer into
Eric's ear, and then Eric would answer for her. To me,
that's more than odd. Yeah, I'm just astounded by that.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, it's something like a three or four year old
child would do with their mother.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah, I'm trying to picture this.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, very strange. But you know, Eric's not going to
be super picky about this. This is the first girlfriend
he's ever had, and you know he fell in love
with her quickly. Yeah, but yeah, definitely that was an
odd thing.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah. Ryan noticed it too when he first met Rosa,
but Eric just explained this behavior to himself by saying
it Rosa was even more shy than he was.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, that's hard to imagine.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Greg did believe that she was shy, but he would
later wonder if it was a way Rosa had of
controlling a room.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
Well, yeah, I could see if you're doing that, you're
kind of getting everyone's attention on you. But then, on
the other hand, if you want to control a room,
why wouldn't you be outspoken? So there's something a little
shady about it to me, like she's kind of secretive
or you know, hiding something a little bit.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, I would wonder about that. Yeah, me too, because
that's just really strange behavior.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
To me, it is, and I could see maybe it
would happen once, but for it to keep happening especially,
it's very very odd.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah. Well there's some other oddities too, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Another odd thing happened when Greg spoke with Eric over
the telephone. Rosa would always listen in to their conversations,
so it became so obvious that Eric even had a
code word to let his father know when Rosa was
listening in. Of course, this was very odd behavior, and
the people in Eric's life did begin to feel a

(10:13):
bit uncomfortable around Rosa after that, because she seemed to
be very controlling and jealous and just you know, weird
for lack of a better word. Ryan, who was Eric's
best friend, started to send some tension between Rosa and
Eric too, but you know, he didn't want to say
anything because Eric had been, you know, so happy to
finally find someone, and you know, Ryan didn't want to

(10:36):
be the one to ruin it for him. So the
relationship continued until on Valentine's Day two thousand and four,
Eric proposed to Rosa.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
So that wasn't a very long courtship.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
No, I mean they met in two thousand and two.
This is two thousand and four, so almost a couple
of years, maybe a year and a half.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
I thought it was shorter, okay.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
So when she said yes, he was excited and happy.
He called to tell his sister, then his parents, and
then his grandmother, Sally, who was very important to him.
They were all excited for him, and Sally especially was
excited about planning the wedding and she was hoping to
become a great grandmother. Eric had been very close with
Sally since he was just a little boy. She was

(11:20):
very friendly and had always been a very doting grandmother
for him. Now at this point when he's marrying Rosa,
Sally's already in her late eighties, but Eric noticed a
new energy with her as she helped Rosa with the
wedding plans. It really seemed to make her happy. I
think she had worried about Eric for many years because
Eric had had issues and really not many relationships. So

(11:44):
I think she was just kind of relieved that he'd
found someone and she wanted him to be happy.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah, happy and relieved.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, And after they were engaged. Rosa's mom may also
seemed very happy and excited. Rosa was super close with
many and May would step in and take over some
of the decisions. Rosa would pretty much always go along
with what May said, and Eric would in turn follow
whatever Rosa said. So May's kind of in charge of

(12:12):
things if you look at it that way.

Speaker 3 (12:14):
Yeah, whatever May says is the rule.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Well, and that's something we wonder with this whole situation
is how much was Rosa's doing and how much was
May controlling Rosa?

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Well, if she always did as May asked her to do,
she's not that much in control.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Mays in control, right, But at the same time, she's
an adult. Well yeah, so zerah, so she's responsible. Yeah,
But Eric just wants to please her, is the feeling
I get. He's gonna work hard, He's going to do
whatever it takes just to please her and make her happy.
He didn't want a lot, He just wanted, you know,
a nice, happy, little family, and he thought he could
have that with Rosa. So Eric married Rosa in April

(12:54):
of two thousand and five, and on his wedding day,
Eric felt like he had found his person and hope
that they would be together forever. I mean that was
the idea of it anyway, and Sally was just thrilled
for Eric. Despite their reservations about some of Rosa's behavior,
Eric's family and friends really wanted to just think the
best of Rosa and be happy for Eric, so they

(13:16):
all did. Greg did, Ryan did, and Sally especially did
because Sally's thinking great grandchildren, which is something she really wanted.

Speaker 3 (13:26):
And so the couple went on the honeymoon to Hawaii,
and it seemed like all of Eric's dreams were coming true.
Over the time spent preparing for the wedding, Rosa had
been very stressed out and they'd been arguing a lot.
Eric had convinced himself that things would be better after
the wedding was behind them, and he hoped that she
would be able to relax and enjoy yourself in Hawaii.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
That's kind of funny if you are engaged to someone
and you're fighting a lot and things aren't going well,
and then you think, well, we'll get the wedding behind
us and things will be better. It's really not how
it works.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
Oh, it's pretty wistful thinking, it is.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
It's kind of like people who think, well, let's have
a baby, it'll bring us closer together. Yeah, you know,
it just doesn't work that way, no, because.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
You know, if you're seeing these actions, whether it's food
of stress or or whatever, it's a red flag. It is.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
And I'm sure there was stress, but this isn't like
extreme stress. It's not like a blended family. They don't
have any of those issues. It really should have been
fairly simple.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
One would think there's no ex.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Husband or ex wife, there's no kids to worry about,
and you know, they weren't wealthy, but they could afford
things and they had the support of their families. So
you know, if she's already arguing with him a lot
and being stressed out, you have to wonder how are
they going to deal with real life situations once they're
married and maybe have a child.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
It would be worrisome to me.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, So even on their honeymoon, Rosa was very agitated
and easily angered. So no surprise there, but I guess
Eric was surprised by this, and then about a week
into this trap they ended up having a really big fight.
During this fight, Rosa tried to punch Eric in the face.
She actually took a full swing at him with a
closed fist. She missed him. But this was really the

(15:12):
first warning sign that there might be something really wrong
with Rosa. Maybe she wasn't really in love with Eric,
or maybe she just had a real propensity for violence.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
So after the wedding, they lived with May for a
few months before buying their own condo in Fremont. Eric
had already gone deeply into debt to pay for the wedding,
and it was a financial strain to pay the bills.
But by this time Rosa had stopped working, so there
was a one income family. Now Eric was responsible for
paying everything.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, and that's one thing in all my research, I
have not been able to figure out why she stopped working.
She was the educated one with the better job.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
Well, you could say that she had achieved her goal
of marrying a guy, yeah, and felt like she could
stay home. Yeah, work was done, I guess.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
But I do find it odd when they don't have
any children. What's she doing all day?

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yeah? I would like to know that mm hm. So
obviously they began to have serious money problems, and that
became the topic of many of their arguments. She was
angry with Eric pretty much every day, and he began
to feel like she only wanted him around to make
money and pay the bills, constant fighting, and Eric had
no idea how to handle it.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
No, I mean Eric really was clueless, poor guy. He
just like, I want her to be happy, you know,
It's really kind of sad.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
Eric was always walking around on eggshells, worrying about what
would be the next thing to throw Rosa off her handle. Well.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Then Eric began to dread even going home because every
day there was an argument and he was always doing
something Rosa did not like. He just could not please her.
She didn't lead off with violence, but the incident in
Hawaii was always in the back of Eric's mind, like
if she was willing to do that, will she do
that again? Which normally the case. So Eric did have

(17:03):
a lot of issues. We'd have mentioned that back in
high school he had a history of some mental health
issues like depression or mostly depression. Yeah, and being in
this turbulent relationship, along with the constant pressure to make
more money, really began to take a.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Toll though there was a ton of stress.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Oh yeah. Now, over time, Rosa began to separate Eric
from his family. She had many demands on how he
shouldn't be talking or spending time with his family or
his friends. He wasn't in contact with his father, or
his grandmother or even his best friend Ryan. And Rosa
was extremely possessive and jealous of Eric's relationship with anyone

(17:41):
but her. This is like the last guy you should
be jealous of or worried about cheating. He wasn't going
to happen. I wouldn't think no, So it's definitely something
wrong with Rosa's thinking here. But of course Eric really
wanted the marriage to work.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yeah, he wanted to be married and he wanted to
have a family with Rose. And then a few months
after they were married, Rosa became pregnant. Eric was super
excited about becoming a father. He and Rosa talked about
having a traditional Catholic family. This was something Eric had
always wanted and was really looking forward to. They talked
about having a big family, five or six kids yep.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
So June twenty first, two thousand and six, their daughter,
Elizabeth was born. Eric was, of course very nervous, but
he had a lot of fun spending time with his
baby daughter whenever he could. But you know, he was
also very busy during this time because now Eric was
working two jobs. He was working during the day at
his job with Alameda County Social Services and that was

(18:56):
from eight thirty am to five pm. Then from eleven
thirty pm to eight am he worked at a pharmacy.
So that just sounds exhausting.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
How do you do ariaging like sixteen eighteen hours a day.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, barely enough time to get any sleep. Also, on
the weekend he worked at the pharmacy, so very very
little sleep. But he was taking his marriage vows in
his role as a father very seriously. He felt like
he should provide for his family.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
Well, yeah, that was Rosa just fine.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
It kind of did because I think she didn't really
want him around, right.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
Probably helped him because if he's not around, he's not
fighting with her.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Well in that way, yes, but I'm sure that's not
what he wanted when he got married. No, No, but
he really would do just about anything to make his
family life work, and he was bending over backwards but
still just seemed like Rosa didn't care and just could
never be satisfied with anything. So then the fights were escalating,
and that's when Rosa began threatening divorce and this was

(19:59):
very upsetting. Was shocked by this because Rosa had always
portrayed herself as a devout Catholic, and she told him
she didn't believe in divorce. Eric had to do everything
Rosa's way or she'd threatened to leave him and take
the baby with her. So it seemed like she was
becoming more manipulative and maybe using their daughter, you know,

(20:19):
against him a bit.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
Now this is really painful to Eric, who really did
love his wife. He wanted more than anything for the
marriage to work out and for Rosa and their daughter
to be happy. So he continued to try to do
everything he could to please Rosa, and when he couldn't
make it work, he felt like he had failed. Well,
by this time, we were thinking, there's nothing he's going
to be able to do. It's going to please her.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
No, But with his thought process of not being very
experienced and kind of being down on himself a lot,
he would blame himself a lot for this. So shortly
after their daughter was born, Rosa began to leave the
house with her for long periods of time. She started
spending time at her parents' house. So when Eric did

(21:02):
come home from work, his wife and daughter wouldn't even
be there. And this started out being you know, two
three times a week until it was like every day
and he barely saw them. So he was lonely and
missed being able to spend time with his daughter. After all,
he was working so that he could have this family life,
but there was no family life now, and that's when

(21:24):
his mental health issues really returned. He became seriously depressed,
and finally, in March of two thousand and seven, Rosa
and Eric separated, but he said he never decided to separate.
There was never a discussion, just all of a sudden,
Rosa kicked him out of the house. And by this time,
Rosa had already taken control of all of their assets

(21:45):
and their bank accounts, so she had their home, the child,
and access to all of the money, and he pretty
much had nothing. He even really had nowhere to go.
He didn't have enough money to rent an apartment, and
it was awkward because he hadn't been in time with
his family or friends for a while due to Rosa's
demands and you know, kind of keeping him away from everyone.

(22:07):
So he was sad and embarrassed, but he was desperate,
so he showed up at his grandmother, Sally's house, and Sally,
of course took him in without any hesitation. She was
a very kind, loving and understanding woman, and even though
Eric had isolated himself from her for really quite some time,
she took him in and there were really no questions asked.

(22:29):
She was taking him in.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
It's the kind of woman she was.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, that was his home. No matter what happened in
his life. He could always come home to her, which
was really sweet.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
And once they'd been separated, Eric found that he missed
his daughter and he felt like a failure because his
marriage hadn't worked out. But at the same time, he
was feeling really relieved he didn't have to deal that
much with Rosa anymore.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Well, yeah, the stress had been really incredible, it.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Must have been. So Eric began coming back out of
his shell and reconnecting with those he'd been close with
for marrying Rosa. Eric's father, Greg was relieved because he
knew that Rosa was not good for his son. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
By then, you know, they pretty much knew that.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Well, the way we've presented this case, we've known it
since they were dating, or at least since the honeymoon.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Well, yeah, I mean at that point, you're wondering, you're worrying, right,
You are, but you're hoping for the best. Everyone was
just hoping for the best, which didn't happen. So now
Rosa had custody of their daughter and she wasn't even
allowing Eric to have any visits, and there was really
no reason for that. He'd always been a good father,
he'd done his best at least, you know. So Eric

(23:38):
eventually initiated some legal filings to get full custody in
May of two thousand and seven, and he did this
because he'd been informed by a Child Protective Services social
worker that she believed Rosa was a danger to their
daughter due to her paranoid tendencies and her erratic behavior.
And also on their daughter's first birthday, Eric had nicely

(24:01):
asked to visit their daughter and Rosa had just flatly refused.
So they'd really upset Eric and his family members, and
he felt like he had no choice at that point
but to try and get custody. So this was a
big process that Alameda County Family Court assigned to doctor
Philip Montes, a psychologist, as the mediator in the Hills case.

(24:23):
The court ordered both Eric and Rosa to have psychiatric evaluations.
Then at the next hearing, the court decided that they
would share custody equally, but during the next year and
a half of custody litigation, Eric complained to the psychologist
about Rosa. So these complaints included that she disrupted daycare,

(24:43):
not putting Elizabeth into daycare as was agreed, she was
overfeeding the child, which is weird, and she did not
return her on time after a Thanksgiving visit. So she
just wasn't basically cooperating.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
Yeah, this really pissed Rosa off custody.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
She was just enraged, and things started to get ugly.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Really ugly. She sent an email to Eric's employer saying
that he was off his medication and that he was
talking about shooting a place up.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
That got Eric suspended while they investigated that claim.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Well that's very serious, for sure, you think so.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, Eric had never owned a gun, had never threatened
anyone with any kind of violence.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well, and I think people at work thought this can't
be real, but you know, you have to be careful.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, Plus he's terrified of losing his job. Of course,
the investigation lasted over two months. A psychiatrist eventually cleared
Eric to return to work, but then a few months
later Rosa made a new allegation against Eric. She called
the police and accused Eric of sexually molesting her daughter.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
Now, this is the worst.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
So Eric get shocked by this and immediately deny these allegations.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
I know, but how do you prove that you didn't
do something. It's really hard.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
It's very hard, and just.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
Labeling someone with that is so serious. And when a
parent does that, the court does not take kindly to
a mother making that up either. No, no, it's really
an awful thing to do. This was very frightening because
if Rosa was believed, Eric might never have any contact
with his daughter again, and an accusation like that was

(26:23):
very damaging. And now Eric was just in a constant
state of fear about what might happen, and of course
that did not help with his depression. So he was
just in a really bad state. Now, Rosa really would
go to any length to portray Eric as a child
molester and as a mentally deranged person, and this was
all in the effort to take custody of their daughter

(26:46):
away from him. We haven't heard Rosa's side of this,
but there's really nothing I could find that would indicate
that Eric was a problem at all. Maybe she wasn't
in love with him, and that's fine, but she didn't
need to do this to him.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
Well, if she's pursuing a scorched earth.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Policy, absolutely so these allegations were complete fiction, and her
motivation was to have one hundred percent custody of their daughter.
Then Eric began to believe that May, Rosa's mom had
wanted to be a grandmother, So maybe she'd been the
one to push Rosa to be with Eric just to
have a baby for her. And think about it, that

(27:24):
could be possible because May is the one that kind
of set them up to meet.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
She did. She arranged the first.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Meeting right, and that very first meeting, Rosa was very
attentive to Eric and a lovely guy. But was he
really the kind of guy that she would be that
attracted to? That quickly seemed a little odd if you
look back on it. So Eric decided that Rosa probably
had never even loved him at all. It had all
just been a setup for him to support her and

(27:50):
give her a baby, and now that she had what
she wanted, she just wanted to get him out of
their lives. And what was really tough was that she'd
do anything. She'd do whatever she had to do just
to get what she wanted.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Oh that's what we're seeing.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
There seemed to be no limit, no empathy for Eric,
no even really consideration for what she was putting her
daughter through with all of this, because of course her
daughter loved her dad. He was a sweet guy.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
It was determined that Eric had no inappropriate contact with
his daughter. Deployed backfired on Rosa, and Eric was granted
eighty five percent physical custody of Elizabeth, as well as
one hundred percent legal custody. Now, Rosa became more resistant
to follow in court orders and she became uncooperative with
the court mediator. Those aren't good things to do, no,

(28:40):
if you're trying to get more custody. Every time the
mediator turned into a report on the case, it would
include some kind of conflict or incident that involved Rosa.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
Well, it was Rosa's own behaviors which really worked against
her and that lost her much of the custody of
her daughter. But you know, of course she was angry
with the courts, with Air and with anyone who was
supportive of Eric. And this would include Sally, even though
she's in her eighties and really has nothing to do
with it other than supporting her grandson and great granddaughter

(29:12):
and loving them. And you know, she had loved Rosa
and tried to really make her part of the family,
but that never worked out. So eventually it got to
the point where Rosa and Eric really were not able
to even talk to each other, but May seemed anxious
to be of help and she became their go between.
By then, May was working in a different office from Eric,

(29:33):
so he was having fewer interactions with her. But when
Eric did interact with May, she was friendly with him
and cordial. She didn't show any signs of being angry
with Eric or any signs that she was holding a
grudge at all, which you know, was kind of well,
I wouldn't say unusual, but it was a bit surprising
for him, and in a good way though. He thought, well, good,

(29:56):
maybe not everybody's gone mad, right, maybe I have some
on that side of the family who really cares about
my daughter. But that really wasn't true either. We'll find out.
So in January of two thousand and nine, Eric and
his daughter were living with his grandmother, Sally. And now
she's ninety one years old and her health is really
kind of deteriorated, but she still did always try to

(30:19):
be available and help any way she could with Eric's daughter,
Elizabeth really liked to play games with her great grandmother,
even though Sally had lost a lot of her mobility,
so Sally would enjoy having Elizabeth nearby and she could
make her giggle. And during this time, the family really
made a lot of memories that Eric would always cherish.

(30:39):
The little girl would climb in the bed with her
great grandmother and play games, and it's just very sweet,
very sweet situation. So even though Eric probably would have
liked to be able to have his own place, it
was really a nice household for the child, at least
temporarily to have that extended family. Yeah, and of course
Sally just loved it. So Sally was a petite woman.

(31:02):
She was just five feet tall, and she'd become somewhat overweight,
and she had very poor eyesight. She'd been having more
and more difficulty getting around. She hadn't driven in years,
and sometimes she had to use a walker to help
with her balance when she moved around the house. Sally
was in this long term relationship with ninety year old Lester,
a younger man kind of scandalous, right, I tell you.

(31:26):
But Lester was also in declining health. Lester had terminal
bladder cancer, but they still got together and they called
each other daily. If they didn't see each other, they
were on the phone. Lester regularly spoke on the phone
with Sally at four pm on those days when they
couldn't be together, and they were very regimented about this,

(31:46):
as you can imagine. Yes, yes, it's not a lot
going on in their lives, so this was a big deal.
This was something they did. And they'd even call it
cocktail hour, where they'd get on the phone and have
a drink and chat, which I think is just a
door horrible. It's nice, isn't that nice?

Speaker 3 (32:02):
So on January seventh, two thousand and nine, Eric and
his daughter Elizabeth left the house at around seven in
the morning before Sally had woken up, and Eric dropped
Elizabeth at daycare and then he went on to work.
And then when Lester made his four o'clock call to Sally,
she didn't answer the phone, and that was very unusual.
They were very regimented about these calls. Never really missed one, No,

(32:27):
they didn't. So a few minutes later, Lester called again,
and then he called again, and each time he left
a message, she sounded more and more distressed because Sally
wasn't picking up well right now.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Sally could not leave the house on her own, and
he knew that Eric was at work and Elizabeth was
at daycare. So he's really worried. And of course what
he's worried about is her health. I mean, she's ninety one,
she has impaired mobility and eyesight. He's thinking maybe she fell.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
Yeah, there's all sorts of things. You're thinking, yeah, she could.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
Have had a stroke, fallen anything, really, so he's really worried.
He loved her. So he called up Jeff and Ute Rowe,
that's his son and daughter in law, and he explained
to them that he'd been trying to reach Sally by
phone for the last hour and it was very unusual
that she wasn't answering. So Leicester was obviously upset. So

(33:21):
Jeff and Uta agreed to drive to Sally's house to
check on her.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
So they arrived at Sally's around five point thirty in
the afternoon and nothing seemed unusual that was on the exterior.
They weren't inside yet. They knocked on the doors and
ran the doorbell several times. Jeff checked the backyard, and then,
having found nothing, they decided to stay there until Eric
got home from work.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Well, yeah, because he's due home now any minute.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah. Yeah. So he arrived at the house with Elizabeth
after he picked her up from daycare, and Jeff and
Ute explained to him why they were there. They all
went into the house together through the garage, with Elizabeth
in her father's arms. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
So Jeff and Uta waited in the family while Eric
carried his daughter upstairs. When Eric went into his grandmother's room,
he saw May crouching near the closet.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
So, what the hell, Yeah, what's up?

Speaker 2 (34:12):
He was confused and worried because May obviously should not
have been there. She did not have a relationship with
Sally at all. She'd really never been there. So when

(34:36):
May said that Sally was out shopping, Eric knew that
was crazy, that was wrong. Sally did not just go
out shopping. So then he asked May how she'd gotten
into the house, and May said that she had come
in through the door in the garage. So now Eric
is really kind of frightened. He's starting to worry that
May had done something to Sally. She seemed like she

(34:57):
was up to something, and he's really worried about Sally,
so he ran toward the garage. As Eric ran down
the stairs, Rosa ran out of the baby's room and
charged toward him. So she was wearing a dark trench
coat and a black ski mask, So now he really
is scared something's up. Then he felt something hit him

(35:17):
on the back of his head and he heard popping noises.
He fell down in the hallway and May and Rosa
began hitting him repeatedly all over his body. They had
like a police baton. Rosa used a stun gun on
Eric repeatedly on his legs and his lower torso also
while May was continuing to hit him, so Eric yelled

(35:39):
out for Jeff to help him. Downstairs, Jeff and his
wife heard two or three popping sounds, followed by Eric screaming,
and Eric was yelling.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
What are you doing?

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Over and over again, so thinking that they may have
heard gunshots, Jeff and Ute ran to the next door
neighbor's house and the neighbor called nine to one one,
then the three of them and then went back to
Sally's house, and there they heard more of these popping sounds,
and the neighbor heard Eric screaming, wait, wait, wait, So
they were beating him and tasing him. So while this

(36:12):
is going on, Eric had blood dripping down his face
and he's really fighting for his life. At this point,
Eric weighed over two hundred and fifty pounds and Rosa
and May were tiny, each weighing about one hundred pounds.
So Eric was able to stand up and push May away,
but then Rosa would knock him down again. He was

(36:33):
stunned and hit again multiple times. Eric did manage to
get the baton away from them, and he began striking
back at the two women. He kicked Rosa back into
the baby's room, but she got out again and she
used the stun gun on him, telling him to shut
up and stop moving. So then Rosa held a gun
to Eric's chest, so he stopped fighting and he lay

(36:55):
still on the floor. May then got on top of
Eric and pushed a baton down on his throat, choking him.
So both May and Rosa demanded that Eric say he
would give up custody of his daughter, and Eric agreed.
He said, yes, you can have custody, just to keep
them from killing him. Yeah, but what kind of a
thought process is that? Do you think you're going to

(37:17):
attack someone like that? And then the court's going to say, well,
you said that you'd give up custody, So I'm afraid
we're going to have to give custody to the attacking mother.
I mean, what are they thinking when you're in that
kind of threat or duress? Nothing you say is going
to be held too.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
No. No, But by this time Eric heard sirens getting closer,
so Rosa ran over to the window and may continue
to hold the baton on Eric's throat, and Rosa returned
to the bedroom doorway, pointing the gun at Eric, and
soon Eric heard police officers entering the house. He's probably
thinking you be.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah, hopefully.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
Deputies from the Sheriff's office arrived at Sala's house at
five point fifty three pm. They heard yelling and screaming
from inside the house. They heard a male voy saying,
please don't kill me. I don't want to die. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
I know he was a big guy, but you know,
kind of a soft guy.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Well, I would figure everybody who weighs north of two
hundred and fifty pounds is probably not in the best
of shape.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Well, some people are they're big and muscly, but that
wasn't the case with Eric.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
Don't think that's the case of Eric.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
No, he was just kind of chubby. So the deputies
walked up the stairs with their guns drawn. They found
Eric on his knees in the hallway. May was standing
nearby some on spent bullets, a stun gun and a
collapsible baton, and her head was bleeding. So Eric suddenly
ran into a bedroom to get away from Rosa, who

(38:39):
was holding a gun on him. But the police didn't
know that. They just saw this large man in May
and they didn't see Rosa yet, so a deputy used
his stun gun to incapacitate Eric.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
So poor Eric.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Eric said, you know this, this stun gun really worked.
This was a much stronger model than what May and
Rosa had been able to buy. But May was ordered
to drop to her knees and raise her hands above
her head. But the police don't know. They're thinking it's
more likely that it's the man that's the aggressor. Right,
oh yeah, at this little Asian woman who's twenty years

(39:16):
older than him or whatever. But still poor Eric. So
Eric was shouting that May and Rosa had a gun
and that his two year old daughter was in the house.
Deputy Jared had Away asked May where the child was,
but she wouldn't answer him. Then finally she pointed to
the bathroom. Had Away looked into a mirror on the

(39:36):
bathroom wall, and that's when he saw a reflection of
Rosa standing still in a nearby bedroom. Had Away then
ordered Rosa to come out of the bedroom with her
hands raised. She followed his instructions. Had Away then found
a second stun gun in that bedroom, and he found
the two year old crying by herself, shut in the bathroom.

(39:57):
So that's how much she cared about her daughter.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
What a scene.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, So deputies took May and Rosa from the house
and searched them. Rosa was still wearing the long black
trench coat and multiple layers of clothing. In her jacket pocket,
they found an unloaded handgun. May was wearing a heavy
tan colored coat with black pants, and she told a
deputy that she had another stun gun in her pocket.

(40:22):
May was taken to the hospital because she'd been hitting
the head with the baton by Eric trying to defend himself,
so she had to go there. To get treatment. Then
Deputy Mitchell Mensinger found Rosa's father Ping nearby the scene.
He was slouched down in the driver's seat of a
gray Prius that was parked across the street and several

(40:43):
houses down the street. So the car was registered to Ping,
and inside the deputy found a pink and black backpack
which belonged to May. It contained her business cards, her
driver's license, a flashlight, a red wig pepper spray, a headlamp,
and written directions to Sally's house.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
So got the kid all packed.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
Really no effort at concealing what she was up to.
So the reasoning here is such as.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
That, Yeah, in Sally's backyard near the fence, police found
a black backpack and it held a pocket, saw, packaging tape,
a rope, crossbow, arrows, a knife, a pride bar, and
twenty two caliber ammunition. Wow they came well armed, Oh
they did.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
At the crime scene, forensics retrieved several items from the
upstairs of the house and these included a knife with
a sheath, latex gloves, twenty two caliber bullets, and a
retractable baton and another stun gun. Deputies did search the
backyard and there was no evidence of a struggle out there.
But then they saw a storage shed that was padlocked shut,

(41:50):
so they cut that open to take a look inside.
So inside of the shed there was a trash barrel
with a blue sheet in it. But when they peered
in and looked a little closer, they recognized a human
foot in the trash can, sticking out of the trash can. Yeah,
can you imagine discovery awful? So Sally's body had been

(42:11):
placed headfirst in this garbage container, a ninety one year
old woman. She'd been wrapped in blue sheets. There were
plastic grocery bags on her head, neck, and hands, and
there was also a white rope wrapped around her body.
So the police are thinking this was no accident, right,
this woman's been victimized.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
And murdered and hid, it would seem.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Salie's autopsy would reveal that she had several blunt injuries
to her head and neck, and she had taser burn
marks on her right hand arm and Torso this poor woman.
The cause of death was determined to be asphyxiation due
to strangulation. So this is just horrible. Rosa's Acura Integra,
which had been parked near Sally's house, was impounded and

(42:58):
inside this vehicle there was a box of twenty two
caliber bullets and some packaging for a glass cutter. A
black duffel bag was there which contained handcuffs, leg irons,
pepper spray, a hack saw, an axe, a prie bar,
and a rubber mallet. So what in the fuck were
they planning here? This is all for a ninety one

(43:19):
year old woman. Well, then I guess for Eric and
Eric too, Oh my god, but wow, they were really armed.
There was also a blue coin purse with two thousand
dollars cash and an envelope with four hundred and thirty
two dollars and six cents, so I'm not sure what
the money was for. But then police were especially shocked
when they found a samurai sword with a shoulder strap

(43:43):
in the car. Holy holy ground, oh wow wow.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
So when the police did interview Rosa, she claimed that
she had seen her ex husband in the same bed
as their daughter. Despite no evidence being found to support
her allegations of sexual abuse, Rosa would stick with this story.
She told detectives that she had entered Sally's house to
confront Eric, but that Sally had stopped her and in

(44:07):
a moment of frustration. She said she had unintentionally injured
the elderly woman.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
They were still going to be blaming Eric, aren't we. So, May,
when she was interviewed, said that she had witnessed the
fight between her daughter and Eric and that she had
stepped in to help Rosa. So, at this point, with
no other witnesses, the police weren't sure who to believe.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
No, they really weren't sure. But they did know that
Eric lived at the house, and then they did find
out that he had custody, So plus finding all those
things in May's car, it was starting to come together.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
Yeah, it unraveled pretty quickly, pretty quickly. Yeah. So the
very next day, actually January eighth, deputies executed a search
warrant on a home and Antioch. There they found mail
addressed to May, Ping and Rosa. They also recovered a
computer and a thirty eight caliber revolver that was registered
to Ping. Not a forensics computer experts analyze a computer

(45:01):
and found internet searches for Taser guns, gun silencers, and
how to break into a house.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Right, so, it was determined that May and Ping had
a second home. On January twentieth, the search was done
on a home in Brentwood, and inside this house they
found evidence that May and Rosa had lived in this home,
and that included bills and a paste ub in May's name,
and then some job applications in Rosa's name. So now

(45:30):
Rosa was starting to look for a job. Huh, I
don't get it. I don't know. Well. Inside this house,
deputies found printed documents and handwritten notes. In the kitchen
there was one print out from the Internet that had
information about chloroform and poisons and antidotes. There were other
print outs titled medications that can cause confusion in elderly

(45:54):
persons and medications that should be avoided if possible when
certain diseases are pressed. So these all show that they
were targeting Sally. Then in a notebook there were recorded
movements of vehicles, including Eric's, at Sally's house. More notes
indicating stalking behaviors and plans for their crimes were found too.

(46:15):
One note read crime equals desire ability opportunity. Sounds like
they were on drugs like sounds like a night on pop.
Flashlight as a weapon to hit at forehead, wrist. Pepper
spray does not work on everybody. Tear gas trial toxicology,
arsenic traceless death, and poisoned tablet. So a lot of

(46:37):
Internet searching was going on.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
Here, That's not all of it. No, So in a
bedroom bathroom, deputys found notes for a revenge spell against
Eric Hill, Gregory Hill, and Selma and a note referring
to Eric and Selma Hill as troublemakers. The hard drives
of several computers seized found Internet searches for traceless suicide,
homemade silence, how to murder, gun shows, how to get

(47:03):
away with murder, punishment for murder, and how to strangle.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Wow, my god.

Speaker 3 (47:09):
All these materials convinced police that May and Rosa had
been actively planning their home invasion for over a month,
and they called their plan Operation Custody.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
Yeah, this was craziness total.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
At least, theorized that May and Rosa had intended to
kill Eric as well as Sally and for j suicide
note framing him for the murder of his grandmother.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
That's truly awful. Did they even consider what that would
be like for Eric's daughter?

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Well, they weren't too concerned with her. No, she was
left in the bathroom. Nobody was tending to her.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
She was more like cargo, right, like just a piece
of property to fight about. Well of Verizon Wireless cell
phone analyst examined the cell records of Rosa, May and
Ping's phones. Rosa Cell made a series of ten calls
to May's cell phone from eleven forty six am to
five point fifteen pm on January seventh, two thousand and nine.

(48:03):
And remember Sally would have been home alone during that
whole time period. May's cell connected through cell towers in
Oakland until five oh five PM. Then remaining calls at
five oh five, five twelve, and five point fifteen were
processed through towers in Dublin and Pleasanton. Two tasers were
activated in May's name Beck in December twenty fourth, two

(48:25):
thousand and eight. It's a nice Christmas Eve family activity.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
I guess yeah, yeah, yeah, A good idea. Honey, Let's
go get to go to church. Let's go buy some tasers.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Yeah, let's go get these tasers activated.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
An employee from the Antioch Armory said that two tasers
and pepper spray were sold to an older Asian couple
on Christmas Eve. A man who sold guns at a Reno,
Nevada gun show in October two thousand and eight, said
that he had sold a thirty two caliber gun to
Rosa in May in a private sale for two hundred
dollars cash.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
So this was planned months ahead of time. So in
June eleven, Rosa and Mayhill went on trial for one
charge of murder and one charge of attempted murder. Rosa's
defense was that she had gone to Sally's house to
check on her daughter's safety. So here's what Rosa claimed,
and we don't believe it, but I'm going to go
over it.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
I'd like to hear it, okay.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
So, Rosa claimed that early on the morning of January seventh,
two thousand and nine, she woke up from a nightmare
in which her daughter was screaming, no, Daddy, No. She
said she left the house, taking her gun, a stun gun,
and a taser in case Eric became violent. Rosa said
she then drove to Sally's house in Dublin, parked around

(49:39):
the corner, and climbed onto a second floor balcony. She
testified that when she looked into a window, she saw
Eric and their daughter lying naked on a futon. It's
just so disgusting to even have that thought, right, Yes,
so she claimed that Eric was fondling the child and
that he had an erection. So Rosa testified she did

(50:00):
know what to do. She climbed down from the balcony
and rang the doorbell, but no one would answer the door.
She said she did not call the police because she
had no proof of what she'd just seen. So she
testified that she was just so emotionally overwhelmed that she
couldn't leave her daughter with Eric anymore. You know, she
had to save her. So, according to Rosa's testimony, she

(50:20):
saw Eric leave for work that morning, so she went
into the backyard and she heard Sally open the side
door to the garage. So Rosa said she believed that
Sally was not aware of what Eric was doing and
that if she knew that Eric was molesting their daughter,
she would help her protect the child. So Rosa decided

(50:41):
to speak to Sally. The two women went into the
garage through the side door, and Rosa then told Sally
about the molestation, and according to her testimony, she was
hoping that Sally then would stop financially supporting Eric and
be on her side, but instead, she said, Sally said
that Eric was the child's father and he could do
whatever you wanted, and when Rosa heard this, she was

(51:03):
very shocked and angry. So, according to Rosa, Sally grabbed
something that looked like a knife or a box cutter.
Can you imagine? Can you see this ninety one year old? No,
you can barely keep her own balance, and she appeared
to swing it at Rosa, pointing it at her face.
So Rosa grabbed a broom and hit Sally with it
several times. She testified she'd become really angry, so she'd

(51:25):
lost it, Rosa said. She then tastes Sally and shoved
her with the broom, and at that point Sally fell
backwards and began to gag. Rosa then used a stun
gun to see if Sally would move, but she wouldn't,
so instead of like tapping her on the shoulder and saying,
you know, are you okay? Are you gonna move, she

(51:46):
just tased her to see.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
Yeah, that's a good way as you do, yeah, so,
Rosa claimed. After this all happened, she was in shock.
She called her mother but couldn't reach her until three pm.
And she wraps Salie and she eats and moved her
body by herself out to the shod in the backyard.
She said she's able to do this by using boards
and propping the body onto a dolly, And after putting
Sally's body into the trash bin, she pad locked the door,

(52:10):
and this key was later found on a utility belt
worn by Rosa.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
So then you have to wonder did she bring the padlock?
Sounds like it, So she was kind of planning on
that part. That's really something.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
Yeah, she just figured it might come in handy.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
God, well, they brought everything else from the house. Yeah,
why not, I guess. So. Rosa said that she then
decided to wait for Eric to get home, just to
see if she could convince him to let May take
care of Elizabeth. Rosa testified that when May arrived at
the house at five point twenty five pm, Rosa met
her at the side entrance, and without telling her mother

(52:46):
what she'd done to Sally, Rosa told May that she
needed her to watch the child so she could talk
with Eric about custody. So when Eric got home, Rosa
was upstairs. Now, she never mentioned that people were calling
and knocking on the door trying to check on Sally
all that time. Right, she said she heard Eric talking
to her mother, And in Rosa's version of these events,

(53:08):
when she was in the upstairs hallway, it was Eric
who charged it her, so of course she was afraid
and she tased him. Now, she never really said why
she had a taser in the first place, so that
was kind of a hole in the story.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Oh smolly, yeah, she said.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
It didn't do anything, though, and Eric grabbed her and
began to bang her head onto the floor repeatedly. Then
May came and tried to pull Eric off of Rosa,
Rosa said, and Rosa was able to reach a stun
gun to stun him again. So she testified that Eric
hit her mother on the head with a baton, and
that Eric had a gun, never mind that she had

(53:44):
purchased the gun with her mother and she had brought
the baton with her. But the two year old ran
into the hallway at that point, and Rosa picked her
up and put her into the bathroom and closed the door,
and she said that's when she heard the sirens approaching.
Rosa testified that she had not gone to the house
that day with any intention of killing anyone.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
Oh well, why did she bring all that stuff with her?

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Yeah, just in case, I don't know, her story is shit,
really it is.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
But I guess make something up on the spur of
the moment. That's what she came up with, I guess.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
But just the whole plot was ridiculous. Wasn't going to
work in any way whatsoever. No, so she gave a
statement to police that night because they threatened to take
her daughter away from her permanently, she said, and Rosa
told the police that May had tasted Eric. But then
at the trial she said that she had lied to
the police in her interview that night, and she changed

(54:35):
her story anyway. Both Rosa and May were convicted of
one count of first degree murder and one count of
premeditated attempted murder. Then May was also convicted of one
count of first degree burglary. So in late August of
twenty eleven, the court sentenced Rosa to consecutive prison terms

(54:56):
of twenty five years to life plus one year on
count one one and life with the possibility of parole
plus ten years on count two. The court sentenced May
to consecutive terms of twenty five years to life on
count one and life with the possibility of parole on
count two. May's husband, Ping Lee, who was obviously involved

(55:18):
in this in some way, was later sentenced to just
four years in prison as an accessory after the fact.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
So both Rosa and May have appealed their convictions. Roses
were affirmed, but the appeals panel decided that a lack
of instruction on aiding and a betting felony murder in
the case of Rose's mother may may have confused the jury,
so May's murder conviction was overturned in twenty fifteen as
there was evidence that she was just an accessorted murder
after the fact, but May's conviction for attempted murder was confirmed,

(55:49):
so both May and her daughter Rosa are serving his
sentence in Central California Women's Facility. May's parole eligibility hearing
recently occurred in March of this year and was denied.
Her next hearing is in twenty twenty eight. Roses first
parole hearing is scheduled for July of twenty twenty nine.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Yeah, so just super sad, unnecessary, terrible. Eric did raise
his daughter and said that she's turned out just great
and he's been happy, so that's one good thing.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Yeah, here's this guy who really is simple. Yeah, and
he just wanted to have a family, and this is
what happened.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Right well, and you really do have to wonder what
was going on there behind the scenes, why she even
was with him in the first place.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
Yeah, it would seem there's some multerior motive.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
There was something going on in that family. Yeah, in
May and Roses family for sure. Well, thanks again to
Beck's for this recommendation.

Speaker 4 (56:43):
We will be back really.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Soon with our bonus shows and for now we're going
to do some feedback. But before we do the feedback,
let me just take a few seconds to tell our
new listeners that we have a premium option of TCB
that you can subscribe to to get early, ad free
and bonus shows. You also get a free gift and
a thank you note from us, and we do appreciate
our supporters. If you prefer, you can also subscribe at

(57:08):
patreon dot com slash ti grabber for the same benefits.
So you can go to tigrabber dot com slash subscribe
or Patreon dot com slash ti grabber. Other ways we
ask you to support the show is if you would
give us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or
wherever you listen, and we would love to get an
email or a voicemail with your feedback on cases we've covered,

(57:32):
any opinions, any case suggestions. We do love to hear
from our listeners. If you have some feedback or case
suggestions for us, you can send us an email. Our
email address is True Crime Brewery at tigrabber dot com.
And voicemails can be sent very easily by just clicking
on the voicemail link in our show notes or on

(57:52):
our website and you can record right there from your laptop,
your iPad, your phone, whatever. So it is super easy
and we'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 5 (58:15):
It's time for listener feedback.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
So let's move on with some feedback.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
We've got the latest on Lucy let Be because I
know everyone's followed that trial and its outcome. So the
barrister representing Lucy Letbe has handed over new medical evidence
that he claimed would demolish the case against her. Mark McDonald,
barrister told reporters that Lucy has a new hope. He
delivered the full findings of a fourteen person expert panel

(58:54):
of neonetologists and pediatric specialists who say poor medical care
and natural causes where the reasons for babies collapsing at
the counters of Chester Hospital in the natal unit. Also
given to the Criminal Cases Review Commission CCRC, which investigates
potential miscarriages of justice, was a separate report from seven
Medics which claims the results of insolent Tessa on two

(59:17):
infants which the jury concluded let be poisoned, were unreliable.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
Yeah, so what's next for Lucy Because if it was
in the US, I feel like I'd have a better understanding.
But things are different. They're different in Great Britain.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
Yes they are. Now despite the findings of this expert panel,
Lucy's release or even a retrial is not a guarantee.
She's already had two applications for leaf to appeal refused,
and grounds of appeal related to what her defense argued
were errors in judicial decision making during the trial, not
the medical evidence.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Oh well, that's interesting because I would think the medical
evidence would be grounds for appeal, one would think, especially
now with all of these medical professional scientists coming forward.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
What this means now is that the CCRC is the
only path left open for Lucy to challenge her convictions.

Speaker 4 (01:00:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
So the CCRC investigates potential miscarriages of justice. In England,
Wales and Northern Ireland, and the Commission is expected to
treat her case as a priority. I guess because of
all the public attention it's been getting.

Speaker 3 (01:00:20):
Well, so yeah, there's a lot of publicity. Yeah, even
making it a priority still could take at least a
year to review the evidence before making a referral back
to the Court of Appeal could be even considered right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
And meanwhile, she's in prison. So if you think she's guilty,
you're fine with that. But if you think that she's not,
and I would have to say she wasn't proven guilty
in a valid way in my opinion, then it's terrible
that this young woman is in prison.

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
Yeah, it really is. Well, you just have to at
this point keep faith in thinking that it's all going
to work out.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Okay, Oh I guess that's all she can do. But
I mean, her life is kind of ruined aside from
just being in prison. Oh yes, always going to be
people who think she did it. No matter what, they
will always be people that will think she's a baby killer.
So as far as ever having a career in the
field that she loved, that's gone. And I feel like
a lot of it is just because of using poor

(01:01:15):
scientific evidence that really was not valid or was misconscrewed
it trial.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
Really well, if you're really cynically you say that the
prosecution picked experts to support their views.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
Oh well, I don't think you have to be that cynical.
They always do, right. But I wonder about the doctors,
the pediatricians that were there. I wonder why were they
pointing their fingers at her. I don't know, do you
think they sincerely believe she did it? Or do you
think they were kind of setting her up to protect themselves.
It's a good question.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
It could be.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Yeah, it really could be. Okay, So that's a case
we'll be keeping an eye on for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
And here's another case.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
Yeah, we have an email with a case suggestion from Sydney,
and Sydney writes, Hey, Dick and Jill, I have a
super hosted case that I need you to to cover
on the podcast. It's the case of Stephen Walter Plattle.
On April twelfth, twenty eighteen, forty three year old Plattle
murdered his biological daughter, twenty year old Katie Rose Fusco Plattle,

(01:02:14):
with whom he'd been engaged in an incestuous relationship and
her adoptive father, fifty six year old Anthony Charles Fusco.
And this happened in New Milford, Connecticut. So the day before,
Stephen had murdered his and Katy's seven month old son,
Bennett by smothering him in North Carolina. So this is
just a story from Hall. Really, I have heard of it.

(01:02:37):
The case received widespread attention due to the incest between
Stephen and Katy, as well as the mishandling of the
incest trial that led up to the killings, which really
had ignored Stephen's history of abuse and failed to restrict
Stephen's access to Katie and their son Bennett. Thanks so
much and keep up the excellent work. Sidney P. From

(01:02:57):
North Carolina. Well, thank you, Sidney. So. In nineteen ninety five,
Stephen Plattele, who was twenty, met and began to groom
Alyssa Garcia, age fifteen, over the Internet. He traveled to
San Antonio to begin a sexual relationship with her, and
Alissa ran away with him to live in New York.
Then she became pregnant at age sixteen. On January twenty ninth,

(01:03:21):
nineteen ninety eight, she gave birth to their first child
at seventeen, whom they named Denise Plattle. And we know
what happens with Denise and what follows is just a
really unbelievable and disturbing story. So thank you, Sydney. I
think it's worth looking at, although it's horrific. Have you
heard of that? I thought we had heard of that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:41):
We have heard that, Yeah, but I'm still trying to
sort everything out.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Well, yeah, I don't want to give it away, but
you kind of get the gist of what happened here.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
Yeah. Did they think they'd be an interesting case to do?

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
Yeah, I remember seeing something on television about it years ago,
So we'll have to do some research. So why don't
you read our next email, which is a case suggestion
from Georgina.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
This is from Georgina, Julle and Dick. I love your
show and have my first case suggestion after listening for
five or six years.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
So.

Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
In two thousand and three, France witnessed the arrest of
Bertrand Cantat, lead men of the group Noir Desire, after
a violent argument with his partner, actress Marie Trintignant, that
left her hospitalized on the brink of death. Some so
this is a tragic accident, but after the real truth
was known, many people were shocked and horrified to learn
about the violence he had inflicted on her. It's the

(01:04:35):
story of how men have gotten away with abusing women,
especially men of power and wealth. So many issues for
you to sink your teeth into. Thanks so much, Georgina
from Canada.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Well, thank you, Georgina. We actually have watched the docuseries
on this case, which is on Netflix. Do you remember
watching that?

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
I do?

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Okay, So She's definitely right. This is worth digging into.
To me, It's a story that really outraged me and
it will make you think about it whether we can
separate the art from the artist, kind of like you
can kill someone, but if people like you and you're popular,
you can go back out there and make millions of dollars,
you know, a little bit like people have asked many

(01:05:12):
times with like the Michael Jackson thing. Yes he was
a talented singer, but would you still pay money to
go see him? Of course that's a moot point now,
but knowing what he likely did to children, and.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
You can look at all sorts of examples that way, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
You can, absolutely so. I think A good question to
ask is would you pay to see an artist who
has killed or abused women? And shocking? How many people
would disturbing? Okay, anyway, I think it's a food for
thought and something worth talking about. You think so, Oh, definitely,
kind of one of those frustrating, making my blood boil
type of situations.

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
There's a ton of examples you can.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Use, there really are, and I think maybe if we
do an episode on that case, we'll go over some
other people who've done things and you know, have made
comebacks and whatnot. What comes to mind is mel Gibson.
Do you know that he's still outdoing things that people
are it's outrageous to me.

Speaker 3 (01:06:05):
Well, and there's simple minded things like Pete Rose, a
great baseball player who was convicted of cheating by betting
on games, and people who outraged that he's not in
the Hall of Fame and he's not in the Hall
of Fame because of what he's done.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Yeah, well, I agree with that. But it's not as
bad as a violent or a sexual assault.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
Oh no, no, but lots of examples.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
Absolutely. Okay, So why don't you read our next email,
which is from.

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
Tavis from tabas Hi Jill and Dick had an idea
for a future episode of TCB. On June twenty seventh,
nineteen ninety five, Jody huizen Twitt was abducted from her
apartment parking lot on her way to KIMTTV in Mason City,
Iowa for her shift as the morning show anchor. Seems
significant as this year will mark the thirtieth anniversary of

(01:06:54):
her abduction.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Thirty years and.

Speaker 3 (01:06:56):
In December of twenty four the prime suspect died from Alzheimer's.
I don't know if you all have ever done this case,
but i'd love your spin on it best, Tavis.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Thank you, Tavis. Actually, I have a book on this case,
and I listened to a podcast series on this case.
It's actually fairly well known, but it is something I'd
like to talk about because it's unsolved. It is interesting.
So Jody was a news anchor for KIMT in Mason City, Iowa,
and on June twenty seventh, nineteen ninety five, she was

(01:07:26):
leaving for work when she was abducted. Police found her shoes,
her keys, and hairspray next to her car in the
apartment parking lot. Her body's never been found, but she
was declared legally dead in two thousand and one. Late
last year, an area in Winstead, Minnesota was searched after
an anonymous tip, but no human remains were found. So

(01:07:46):
the only person of interest was a neighbor, John van Seiss,
who said he was friends with Jody and she had
been to his house the night before her abduction.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Yeah, so here's the last one to see her.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Apparently, But Jody had recently been seeing a new boyfriend
and there's been speculation that she'd been abducted by him,
or a jealous X or something. Well I guess not
the new boyfriend. They've eliminated him. But anyway, it's definitely
a story worth covering, and I'll keep it on our
to do list.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
Yes, let's do that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Okay. Then we have an email from Kimberly, and Kimberly writes,
thank you so much for all the time and work
you put into this very enjoyable podcast. I also do
have a recommendation for a crime for you to cover,
as it was in my home state of Wisconsin, and
it remains a mystery from what I can tell. Tom
mon Phil's body was found in a two story pulp

(01:08:36):
that at the James River Paper Mill in Green Bay,
Wisconsin in November nineteen ninety two. So Tom was found
with a forty pound weight tied to his neck in
a pulp vat at the James River paper Mill. Six
co workers were charged with his murder. Now I'll have
been paroled. There's a documentary on this case that I
found and that's titled Beyond Human Nature. There's also like

(01:09:00):
a five hundred page book on this that was done
possibly with Tom's brother, I think that I'd like to read.
So it doesn't sound like that big of a case,
but it's actually quite fascinating because several people were convicted
and many people believe that they shouldn't have been. Weeks
before his death, Tom Manfhils had contacted authorities about a

(01:09:22):
coworker who was stealing electrical wiring from the mill, and
although he had done this anonymously, his coworkers found out
about this. So apparently there was kind of a big
deal about him saying I don't want my name to
get out, but then it getting out to the men
he worked with, so they would have had a big
grudge against him, kind of a whistleblower type of deal.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):
Yeah, that's the thought.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Now, one of Tom's brothers believes that he killed himself,
and that is another theory. But I'm going to read
the book and hopefully find the documentary.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Documentary I think is coming out in May early May.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
I saw that, but I think it was May of
twenty twenty three article set, so I think it should
already be out.

Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
Actually, Okay, Well, look sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
You read those articles and they say it's coming out
this month, but it's that month of a different year.

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
Well it's some year.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Yeah, So if it's May of this year, that's fine too,
because that'll just be in a few weeks. So, yeah, Kimberly,
I think that is a very interesting one.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
I'm just wondering why if thinking that he killed himself,
why would he tie a weight around his neck.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
Well, there's a lot of that kind of stuff. That's
why there's a five hundred page book, I guess. So
there's a lot to it, and that's why I think
it might be really fascinating, would be.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
Right now, we also have the Lori Valo case going
on in Arizona for killing her fourth husband, Charles Valo.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
Yeah, she's doing a good job of representing herself.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
Oh my God. Yeah, it's bad. It's really bad, but
kind of fascinating to watch. Obviously, lots of people covering it,
so we don't need to say a lot about it,
but if anyone wants to share an opinion, I'd love
to hear from you about it. Yeah, and we should
have a verdict pretty soon, within the next couple of
weeks anyway. And I definitely think she'll be convicted because

(01:11:07):
you were definitely being sarcastic when you said she's doing
a great job defending herself.

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
I mean, just the just a little sarcasm.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
You know, it's a human being who died, so I
don't want to make light of it at all, But
just the things she would ask questions about were just
so so stupid, just ridiculous, petty things that really have
nothing to do with it. But I did love seeing
Charles's sister on the stand because she didn't take any
shit from Laurie, and that was enjoyable to see because

(01:11:35):
that woman really suffered a lot because Laurie not only
killed her brother but her grandson.

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Yeah, so that's a super sad case. Okay, everybody, thank
you for being with us today, and we'll see you
next time at the Quiet End.

Speaker 5 (01:11:48):
Bye guys, bye bye the.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
Di and at.

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
Dely I

Speaker 5 (01:12:21):
A