September 19, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of Truth Be Told, Tony Sweet sits down with renowned paranormal investigator and psychologist Dr. Ciarán O’Keeffe, best known for his work on Most Haunted and Paranormal Lockdown. Together, they dive into the fascinating world of ghost hunting and paranormal research — from Europe’s top haunted castles and asylums to the methods that separate genuine investigation from myth.
Dr. O’Keeffe shares his most unforgettable encounters, the psychology behind hauntings, and what it really takes to explore places shrouded in centuries of mystery. And just for fun, we even find out which Ghostbusters character he thinks he’d be!
Whether you’re a believer, a skeptic, or just love a good ghost story, this conversation blends spooky tales with sharp insights you won’t want to miss.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/truth-be-told-paranormal--3589860/support.
Dr. O’Keeffe shares his most unforgettable encounters, the psychology behind hauntings, and what it really takes to explore places shrouded in centuries of mystery. And just for fun, we even find out which Ghostbusters character he thinks he’d be!
Whether you’re a believer, a skeptic, or just love a good ghost story, this conversation blends spooky tales with sharp insights you won’t want to miss.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/truth-be-told-paranormal--3589860/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, welcome back to Truth Be Told, where we dive
deep into the mysteries, the unexplained, and the downright chilling.
Today we are joined by one of Europe's most respected
paranormal investigators, doctor Kieran O'Keefe, known for his work on
Most Haunted and paranormal Lockdown. Kieran brings not only decades
(00:21):
of field experience, but also scientific approach that challenges the myth,
legends and hauntings we think we understand. From ancient castles
to abandoned asylums, Kieran has investigated some of the most
haunted places across Europe. We'll be exploring his experiences inside
these legendary locations, uncovering histories behind the hauntings and asking
(00:46):
the ultimate question what lingers? What really lingers in the shadows?
So get ready for a journey through Europe's darkest corridors
and most restless spirits. I'm Tony, sweet the Truth Be Told.
Please welcome become to the Truth Be Told Studios for
the first time Doctor Kieran O'Keefe. Oh there he is
(01:09):
the rock star of the UK right there.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
You know, Hello, Tony, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I'm doing wonderful? Thank you so much for being here,
and it's always nice to see our paranormal peers from
across the pond, and uh, it's it's uh, it doesn't
get boring for me for the United States, but it's
it's nice to spread out the love to other parts
of the world. So thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Love it. No, I'm I'm honored, genuinely honored. It's a
privilege to be Thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Well, my first thing is you know you're a doctor
of psychology. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, doctor of psychology, but also in that I specialize
in parapsychology and also forensic psychology as well.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
How okay, I know people love when I dive right
into you know, just going into the first question about
paranormal But how does a doctor of psychology get into
this world of paranormal? I know you said parapsychology, about
how did you get into this world in the first place?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
That's a really good question. I guess. I've always been
fascinated by ghost stories, even as a child, you know,
a young boy. I was a foracious reader of classic
ghost authors m R James HP. Lovecraft, for example, and
even contemporary authors Stephen King, Clive Barker, et cetera, to
(02:40):
the extent where my parents were genuinely worried about my
reading habits because I were too young to be reading
that sort of stuff. So that fascination was there. And
then fast forward a few years and in nineteen eighty four,
I saw the movie Ghostbusters, and that cemented an interest
I you know, I knew movie, but I even called
(03:02):
up Columbia University at the time that was featured in
the movie to ask them about their lab that's featured
in the film. And luckily, the person that answered the
phone it sounded as though she had received lots of
similar calls from ignorant people, but she took pity on
me because I was a young boy, and she told
me about the Institute of Parapsychology in North Carolina, the
(03:24):
one where it all started and that used to be
associated with Duke University back in the nineteen thirties, and
that sparked an interest. You know, that wasn't just now
reading ghost stories. It was learning about the science of
this sort of stuff. But I was still interested in
the psychology side, so it kind of started a journey
of discovery in psychology in parapsychology, and actually, you know
(03:48):
you're calling me from the States. I did my undergraduate
degree at a liberal arts college in the States, Washington
College in Maryland, about you know, forty five minutes or
so from Annapolis, that many of your listeners and watchers
will know. And there I double majored in psychology and
(04:08):
also music. But whilst I was doing the psychology, I
did a lot of work down at the Institute of
Parapsychology on my dissertation, which looked at paranoral beliefs and
that sort of stuff, And then did a master's and PhD.
And even though some of those further qualifications were around
forensic psychology and kind of thinking about psychological assistance for
(04:29):
police investigations, I still always maintained an interest in ghosts,
specifically ghosts, but also the wider paranormal area. And then
when I did my PhD, I focused on mediums and
psychics and astrologers and that sort of thing. And then
that turned into an academic career specializing in psychology but
(04:53):
also the psychology of the paranormal, so delivering courses at
university and I continue to do research to this day
well as all the media stuff as well.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I love it. And you're actually well known for blending
skepticism with your investigations, which I appreciate because sometimes here
in the States, some of these stories they go right
into like look, look there, there's there's one, there's one,
there's no one. Yeah. I mean it's like I walk
into a room and I may feel a chill, but
(05:22):
I don't see anything. Ever, so a lot of people
are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, But how do you balance
being open minded while keeping still keeping that scientific lens.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Again, that's a really good question. I guess I need
to start by clarifying when we talk about skeptic and skeptical. Please,
too often the label skeptic is confused with the label cynic.
Cynic it's very closed minded, you know, the same way
as somebody who's dogmatic. It's very closed minded. A skeptic
(05:55):
is somebody that's open minded but questioning. And I think
a lot of people, even a lot of investigators, will
actually be skeptical, but they will be questioning. They will
be looking at stuff and asking questions about what's happening.
So we need to be aware of that. I think
what's interesting for me is that I through all of
(06:16):
my training, I've been involved in the scientific study of
this sort of stuff, so I'm aware of the psychology,
I'm aware of the environmental explanation, and I'll go into
a haunted location as a gachbuster effectively, because I still
love investigating, even though much of my stuff is involved
in the lab. And the balance comes from not immediately
(06:36):
running away with a paranormal explanation. I think that key
is just if something happens, then it's making sure that
it's recorded in some way. And I don't necessarily mean
that it has to be on video, but at least
there's some record of it happening, a time stamp, a
date stamp, even a little description of it if you
don't have access to a camera or a phone to
(06:58):
record it. But in doing that, you're also then looking
at other possible explanations. So the balance comes from me.
For investigations, I have a list of natural explanations depending
on what the experience is, which of course can be
you can see something here, something feel something, all of that.
So I have a list of natural explanations and it's
(07:19):
almost like I'm ticking off all of those. When I
get to the bottom. There is a supernatural explanation. And
that's kind of how I have that balance. I'm open
minded to the possibility. I would love to be able
to pick up the phone and go, we got one,
but I will very much approach it from a scientific perspective.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And what is some of the bigger myths, Because when
you do mention a TV show or a reality show,
a lot of times there's myths about ghost hunting that
people often get wrong. And what do you see of
being one of those television personalities that people are getting wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I think the biggest myth out there about ghost hunting
is that you walk into a haunted location and it
all kicks off. You know. You see that happen on
so many paranorm shows. And don't get me wrong, I've
been part of them, you know myself, and I still
am to an extent, and I love them, you know,
on the ones that come out of North America. There
(08:27):
are so many of them, and I am just such
an addict when it comes to these reality shows. But yeah,
the common trope is you walk into a haunted location
and suddenly it happens. For anybody that knows ghost hunting,
a lot of it can be just like watching paint dry.
You know, you can just be sitting in a dark
location and nothing happens, and I think that is one
(08:50):
of the biggest myths for me. The other one, of course,
is around the use of equipment. People are frequently using
equipment that has its purpose for something else. So an
EMF meter is a classic example that is a specifically
a meter for measuring electromagnetic fields and people using it
as a ghost detector. Well, that's wrong, and we continuously
(09:14):
do that in TV shows because it beeps and it
flashes and it looks brilliant, But actually we should be
using an EMF meter to show that people's experiences are real.
And what I mean by that is there's research to
show that electromagnetic fields can affect our brain in such
a way that we may hallucinate. Well, if somebody has
(09:35):
an experience, point the EMF meter at their head, if
that's not going off, then you know, potentially there's not
EMF kind of circulating in the area that might be
causing the hallucination. So if it doesn't go off, that's
better than all of the flashing and stuff like that.
With the caveat. I know how TV works, and we
(09:56):
like to have all of the flashy stuff and it
all looks very scientific. It could lovely, so I recognize that.
But yeah, I think those are the two biggest myths
in my world.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I love I love how you explain that. I think
people will appreciate that, and I know people that watch
these shows or even people that are going into haunted places.
And from your opinion, do you think paranormal activity is
more of psychological environmental are just just truly supernatural supernatural?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I'm going to sound like a politician when I say
that it feels as though it's a mix of all
of that, And that might surprise some people because they
even though I declare myself as a skeptic, people might
be thinking from what I'm saying, Ah, he says that,
but he's a scientist and he's dismissive and he's cynical.
But no, I'm genuinely open minded to the possibility. But
(10:55):
is it purely psychological and purely environment or purely environmental?
I think it's a combination of those. But I think
in some instances you will have haunted locations where it's
a combination of the psychology in the environment. But there
are those little how can I put it nuggets, those
gold nuggets, those experiences that people have where you just go,
(11:18):
how on earth can you explain that? Seriously, unless the
person who's told you the story is flat out lying,
how on earth can you explain it? You know? And
those are the moments I love, And that's what I mean.
There's a combination. So even in those haunted locations where
people are having what appeared to be genuine experiences, you
(11:38):
still cannot separate psychology or the environment from those experiences.
There still have to be there, but there still also
might be an authentic, genuine paranormal experience happening, the psychology
happening all the time. And if you walk into a
haunted location, the very fact that you are in a
location means that there is some aspect of the environment
(11:58):
that's at work.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I think it's funny when when people watch a horror
film it seems like their sensitivity to paranormal activity heightens
because it puts you on edge. And I wonder if
by somebody just saying this house is haunted, it already
(12:22):
puts you in a mindset, psychological mindset of okay, watch
for things that I probably normally wouldn't watch for if
I was just walked into the yes, the home without
even being told that. So I because I've done that
where you know, I've walked in and like nothing bothered me,
(12:45):
but somebody said, oh yeah, when I was here last time,
I saw two eyes looking out of this back closet
and you're like, oh, and that kind of and then
you start thinking about things. So that's why I feel
the psychology sometimes plays a role in it. But I
grew up in a haunted or a haunted home where
(13:06):
I was a child that saw an old man harmless,
but we think it was probably the guy that built
the home. He was the bank owner and so he
had built this home. But I'm assuming that's what it
was because my nephew years later saw the same old man.
So something like that. I I nobody told me about it,
(13:30):
you know, like, ohether it's haunted. It just happened. So
but psychologically, if somebody tells you something, or if you've
seen a horror film the night before, I think possibly
that could be exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And I think there's two things in psychology we talk
about suggestion, and that's exactly how tony this idea that
if you suggest to somebody that a place is haunted,
they're more likely to misinterpret mundane experiences being something haunting.
And the classic example I always give my students is
(14:05):
if I tell you a location is haunted and you
walk in there and you feel a breeze on the
back of your neck, you may think, oh, there's something
behind me, or there's a spirit that's just passed behind me.
If you walk into an office, you know, in a
high rise, and you feel a breeze on the back
of your neck, you're probably looking for the air conditioning
the open window, and that's the difference between the two. Now,
(14:25):
I also recognize there'll be investigators out there who, when
they feel a breeze on the back of the neck,
will be trying to discount that the window is open
and all that sort of stuff. That's absolutely fine, but
it's just a way of illustrating suggestion. So you're absolutely
right what we say and what prior knowledge we have
about an experience or a location can impact us or
influence us. But I think there's also another part which
(14:48):
you hit on perfectly, and that is the horror movie
analogy that you said kind of almost primed, and I
always say never underestimate the power of fear, because that's
ultimately what it is. You know, there's loads of research
showing the impact that fear has on our body, you
(15:08):
know that heart rate and lung capacity. It increases our
electrodermal activity, so our sweat response. But it also starts
playing with our brain and messes with our perception, and
if we have too much of it, then it can
tip us over the edge. And exactly like you say,
we're almost overly primed to then have a haunting experience
(15:32):
and it's very difficult to get away from that. And
of course, you know, as ghost hunters we often work very,
very late night. So if you combine suggestion and fear
and tiredness, right, it's almost a recipe for ghostly disaster,
isn't it.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
But also, if you think about it, also spirits when
you are your most vulnerable, spirits can feel that. It's
almost like a horse that feels the writer is fearful,
so they take advantage of that. So I don't know
if that's possible that those feelings combined allow spirits to
(16:11):
come into your presence easier. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I think that's an interesting idea. I wouldn't buy into
that at all from my perspective in terms of kind
of creating an open door. But I'm going to turn
it on its head slightly and kind of agree with you,
but not necessarily in terms of opening the door in
terms of fear or that spirits can see that and
(16:36):
they feed off in some way. I'm going to argue
the point in terms of the open mindedness nature of
it is that you know, if you have that fearful
element and that suggested, you know, suggestive element, you can
become open minded to the possibility that you're going to
have an experience in that particular location. And I think
(16:58):
open mindedness, but so belief can play a factor. And
a classic example is I did an investigation of a
haunted warehouse in the north of England many years ago,
now about eighteen years ago, and the group that I
was with we started off and somebody felt a little
(17:19):
bit odd and I said, okay, well, you know, let's
carry on because of course you're feeling a bit odd
because we're in a haunted okay for Vesco, and somebody
just went kieran, shut up, stop with the skepticism tonight.
Can we ask you to do one thing for us,
and that is to leave kind of the skeptical side
and just for one night, just become a complete, devout
(17:42):
believer that everything you experience is going to be a
genuine experience. Just get into that mindset, almost like your
role playing, but really immerse yourself. And it was an
interesting experience. I thought, Okay, fine, you know, I'll give
this a go. And it wasn't faking that I was believing.
I really try to get into that mindset of believing
(18:05):
that there were genuinely ghosts there and believing that every
little knock, every little feeling I had, every little change
in temperature, everything that happened was down to a ghost.
And I tell you what, the number of experiences I
had that night was immense, absolute immense. And I'm not
(18:26):
saying that proves the psychology element. You could look at
it and say, yeah, absolutely, that proves psychology. You could
look at it in another way, and That's where I'm
going to agree with you, and that is that you
need to be potentially in the right mindset to have
genuine experiences. And so that's what I mean. I don't
necessarily buy into the idea that goes to a feed
(18:48):
of it, but there's an element of that in terms
of you need to be in the right mindset. And
I always say to people, I'm potentially the worst person
to have on an investigation because things don't happen. Having
that right mindset, I think is quite key. So kind
of that's a fifty to fifty agreement with you. That's
all right, I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
It's a win for me. You know, I told you
my experience, and I feel like a lot of people
in the paranormal. In paranormal, you know, it is a
huge bubble of different genres, you know, UFO and ghosts
and and I you know, I've had a UFO experience
and it did kind of really put me on this
(19:29):
track of being in this field. And so I always
ask the people that are in this what was your
experience your first experience not just watching Ghostbusters, but an
experience of walking into a haunted place or feeling something
or seeing a spirit for the first time. When was that.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
There are two experiences in my formative years and they
are around the same time, when I was about eight
nine years old, so you're young. Yeah. So one of them,
the first one was visiting a village in Devon So
on the south coast of England, an old, very old
(20:12):
fishing village. You can't even drive into the village. You
have to walk in, park your car at the top
and walk into the village. It's a lovely, lovely place.
But we were walking near that village past a cave
on the coast and I felt a real chill down
the back of my neck. I thought, this is weird,
and it wasn't. Somebody opened the window and you feel cold.
(20:35):
I think people know what I'm talking about, if they've
had this experience in a haunted environment. You feel that
genuine chill, you know this is really odd. We then
walked from there up to the tourist information office within
the center of the village, and we were looking and
I was just rifling through kind of these old newspapers
and the kind of mock up of old newspapers. And
(20:59):
about one hundred and fifty to two hundred years prior
to this point, there had been an incestuous cannibalistic family,
oh Wow, who had hidden themselves and the population of
the local area dropped by close to one hundred people
(21:20):
because of this family going out in the dead and
night abducting people taking them back to where they were
hiding and you know, having their wiki way and being cannibals. Now,
where did they hide in that cave that I walked
by and got that chill? And I looked down it
and went, oh wow, And there was something in there
(21:40):
that went wow. Did I just pick up on, you know,
the remnants of that horrific family that were in that cave?
Or did I feel a chill simply because it's on
the coast and it's England and it's not the sunniest
day and the wind whipping through the cave? Did I
feel that chill? And then it's pure coincidence that I
(22:03):
happened to you know, So there was something I don't
know what it was, but some element of skepticism that
was always there. But that was a real formative experience
that just kind of instilled that fascination with ghostly experiences
to go, what if you know, that would be amazing.
And I mentioned that as the first one. The other
(22:23):
one was a year later and it was a UFO experience.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Oh you like me?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, it was bizarre. It was Christmas Day nineteen eighty.
We're driving home late that night, so it's Christmas Day morning,
about one two o'clock in the morning from visiting Christmas
friend visiting friends over Christmas, and we're driving back along
this busy road and my dad pulls over the car
(22:52):
and everybody else is doing the same, and they're all
getting out of their cars and looking up into the sky,
and my brother and I are in the backseat look
out as well. We look up to this guy and
we see this big ball of light and these all
these little balls of light behind it. My dad comes
back to the car and he says, boys, here's a notebook.
I want you to draw on it what you see
(23:13):
so we can have a record.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's smart of your dad to do.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Oh, really smart. Now, there's nothing that really happened with
that experience other than it just instilled a fascination with UFOs.
I didn't really suddenly go off from that point and think, oh,
there's all these flying sources of its alien and all
of that. But it instilled a fascination with the whole paranormal.
It wasn't until many years later, at about two and
(23:40):
a half years ago now, on the show that I'm
part of Uncanny, we were doing an episode of Rendullsham Forest,
the Rendulsham UFO case, which is the big UFO case
in England. It's our equivalent of your area fifty one basically,
And we were looking at that particular case investigated, and
(24:01):
I suddenly went hold on a second, and I got
out a map of England and I was looking at
the road that we had taken that particular night, and
it was barely a few miles away from Rendlesham Forest.
That night that we were driving back was Christmas Day
night nineteen eighty, which was the exact night when all
of these military personnel, American military personnel had this experiencing.
(24:25):
When you see you, I suddenly thought, what are the
chances that I've witnessed you know the history associated with that. Yeah,
amazing UFO law. So yeah, those two experiences, I think
we were the most influential in instilling a curiosity and
a fascination with the paranormal. It.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
It just thrilled me too. Now I want to even
do more just through your experience. And I just find
it fascinating when a lot of people, especially you know,
fifteen twenty years ago and before that, were very much
don't say I saw UFO, don't say I saw a cost,
people are gonna think I'm nuts, But now people are
(25:06):
more open. And when you do mention, oh I do
a paranormal show, Oh, oh my gosh. You know, it's
they have their own stories. So I love when people
share me their stories. So thank you for sharing that.
And I did title this podcast Europe's Most Haunted Places,
so we may change that, but well, but I do
(25:29):
find it fascinating that, you know, America, you know, we're
two hundred and fifty, almost fifty years old, but Native
Americans have been here way longer. But Europe has thousands
and thousands of years of history. So there's so much
I couldn't even imagine as a paranormal investigator, where you choose,
(25:55):
how you even choose to pick a spot. So what
was that at when you became this, you know, paranormal investigator.
Where did you start? What was the first place that you,
as a professional paranormal investigator you decided to.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Go. That's a really really good question. You say professional,
I'll go back to actually when I was sixteen, so
I wasn't professional in the sense of well being a
qualified parapsychologist and you know, being known in the media
and doing scientific research. But if I go back to
that one and then I can always you know, go
forward to being a parapsychologist. When I was sixteen years old,
(26:36):
I was living in a place called high Wickham in
England and the village next door to high Wickham is
a place called west Wickham where they have the infamous
health Fire Caves. Oh and I think some people have
heard of that, and it's been on a couple of
American shows since. But when I was sixteen years older,
(26:58):
I approached the owner of the health Fire Caves. And
also there is a huge hill next to the cave
and there's a mausoleum at the top as well. So
kind of approached the owners and said, I'd love to
come and do an investigation. You know, I'm interested in
ghosts and that sort of stuff. And they said how
much will it cost us, which is a complete flip
(27:19):
to how it is now. Now they would be charging
me to go and do an investigation rather than paying
me to do an investigation. There. It is brilliant place,
brilliant place, so beautiful. That is Healthire Cave. That was
the first place really that I investigated. Kind of here's
a structured investigation and I'm actually going to go out
and do that. And a location with a fabulous history,
(27:43):
you know, goes back hundreds and hundreds of years. Originally
it was developed built the one of the Dashwoods, which
is the family that live in westwickham Manor that own
the caves hundreds of years ago. They wanted to create
employment for the locals to kind of pay them in
much the same way that you hear the story about
(28:03):
Winchester Mystery House. That this idea of creating employment. So
they were just basically dig these caves, but actually some
of the material would come out and be used for
the roads locally, but it also gets a reputation for
them hell Fire Club which is said to have conducted
a lot of its naughty activities to put it that way,
(28:26):
in the basement of the health Fire Caves and got
some lovely ghost stories associated with it. So that was
I think that's really kind of That was sixteen, I
guess the first couple of investigations that I conducted when
I really became a professional ghostbuster about thirty years ago.
There are two locations that happened within a couple of
(28:47):
months of each other that are amazing big locations it's
not like I started off small health fire caves, of
course is brilliant. The two real ones would be probably
Oxford Castle, which is the oldest building in Oxford. It
was previously a castle and then it became a prison.
(29:07):
So that was one investigation, and then a couple of
months after that I was with a team of researchers
from a university investigating Hampton Court Palace, which again is
an amazing location and people that don't know the history
need to look it up. It's a palace just outside
of London that was originally built by Cardinal Wolsey in
(29:30):
fifteen fourteen when he died I think it's fifteen twenty
nine around then he handed it over to Henry the
Eighth and Henry the Eighth expanded it to make this magnificent,
magnificent building. But from that point on you get an
interesting history that has formed the trigger for haunting experiences subsequently,
(29:51):
and it's focused around Catherine Howard, Henry the Eighth's fifth wife,
who when Henry found out that she had committed adultery
or he listened to the rumors that she had treated adultery,
he ordered her execution and the story goes that Catherine
Howard was in Hampton Called Palace and she ran to
(30:12):
him in his private chapel, begging Henry not to do
this and begging his forgiveness, and she was dragged by
Night's security basically kicking and screaming along this corridor and
then put onto a boat and take into the Tower
of London and that was it and executed. And since
(30:33):
then people have reported on that particular corridor the sounds
of kicking and screaming kind of you know, somebody's feet
being dragged along, but also oppressive, very negative, very sad
emotional feelings as they're going across in that corridor. And yeah,
I was just very fortunate to have lived in that
(30:56):
location in Hampton called Palace for two weeks part of
an investigation and also a psychology experiment that we did.
So when you asked me, which are the first two
or which is the first one, I would put heal
Fire Caves, then Oxford Castle and Hampton Court Palace.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I love that and I wish I could say that
was my first, but that was not. That sounds very storybooks,
So I love it. And do you feel that because
I love that? You said the one was a castle
turned to a prison, which even enhanced it more. But castles, churches, prison, prisons, asylums.
(31:40):
Is there one that you feel has more activity than
the other or does it really matter?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
There's two ways of looking at it. There are definite
locations where there is more reported activity from others. The
reason why I point to Hampton Court Palace and there's
somebody who feels privileged that I was able to investigate
is because for about one hundred and fifty two hundred years,
even though the original Katherine Howard's story goes back to
the fifteen hundreds, we've got documented history of people having
(32:17):
haunted experiences from about one hundred and fifty two hundred
years ago, from visitor books, from diaries. The curator there
has accumulated all of this, so we've got a lovely
consistency with that experience. So there's an example of a
location where you just go yeah, more than any other
that has so many different experiences that people have reported,
(32:40):
so I would go yeah. Hampton Court Palace is a
key one, but related to Hampton Court Palace, Tower of
London is another one because of its history, because the
number of people who have died there and what went
on there. But there's an element of this, and I
don't want it to sound arrogant, but kind you introduce
the idea of the history here in Europe. You could
(33:03):
almost literally take a pin and put it somewhere in
Europe and you know that within a few hours drive
you're going to find a location that a is beautiful
to look at or is scary to look at because
it's kind of the Gothic version, but ultimately a grand
haunted location that has a wonderful history. If I ask
(33:25):
colleagues you know who are ghost hunters, there are few
that are on the bucket list for ghost hunters, and
I think one of them will always be the catacombs
in Paris.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Oh yeah, I want to go. There's so bad and
I haven't.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I bizarrely, I lived in Paris for a year at
the there. I know it's really bad, and I've just
admitted it, like this is just a rule that I
said that. But yeah, there's a location where you think
about it. A vast network kind of underground tunnels and
rooms from the late seventeen hundreds effectively created to house
(34:01):
dead bodies because they one of the cemeteries in Paris,
one of the big cemeteries, A big wall kind of
smashed and kind of fell onto some of the graves,
and the decision was made very quickly, we need a
safer place to house all of these bodies. And then
in you know, literally a year, there are about twenty
(34:23):
cemeteries within the Paris area where they just shut down.
They took all the bodies and they put them under
the catacombs, and then that continued through history. So the
claim is that there are about six million people buried
in the catacombs. So if ever there was a logic
to where people are buried causing hauntings, that has got
(34:45):
to be the most active place.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
I mean even one percent of If there was just
one percent of those, that's a lot of spirits to
what what is one of the most active locations that
you you have experienced in your you know, years of
doing this that you know you left and go I
(35:08):
don't know if I want to go back there or
have you.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yeah, that's a good question. My wife will laugh at
that particular question because she knows that will never happen.
I'll never be in a location where I go I
don't want to go back there, that that will not happen.
I have, you know, carved out a career for myself,
you know, hunting ghosts effectively or ghostbusting, however you want
to put it. And I'm fascinated by it to the
(35:32):
extent wherever ghost jumped out and shouted boo, I would
not run away. I would be standing there with a
clipboard asking it questions. I've been taking photographs. If anything,
the ghosts will be bored to death, so I don't.
There's no locations that I have been wary about and
scared enough that I won't go back. However, there is
(35:53):
a location that I've investigated a number of times that personally,
I feel is probably one of the most active locations
that I've been in, just because of the number of
experiences that I've witnessed and how people respond to the environment.
And that is a place called Battery Myrus. It is
a Second World War bunker on the Channel Islands on
(36:17):
the Isle of Guernsey that sits between England and France,
and it was part of the occupation in the Second
World War, so it's got quite a negative history associated
with it. But it's a underground bunker that is quite
vast and it has a number of tunnels and a
number of rooms in it, but it has a very
(36:40):
cold atmosphere. It's all kind of very derelict now, but
the imagination runs wild with you in terms of when
you think about the history and who was there and
what they did to the locals in the island. But
visiting there as an investigator, it is one of those
locations where I have seen more experiences from people than
(37:04):
I have in any other location. Pretty Much anybody that
goes in there, even if they have nothing else happened
to them, they will go in there and just go
there's something about this atmosphere that's just not right. And
it's different from walking into a wanted location and go, oh,
this is spooky, this is scary. It's not that it's
(37:25):
to the extent where most people when they go in there,
when I've witnessed them, you know, on public ghost hunts,
but also private going in with private groups and investigating,
when they say it, they go it feels like something's
not right, and as they're saying it, there's that real
sense of they don't want to go any further, they
(37:46):
don't want to step in there, and that is very different.
And you add on to that people hearing voices, people
hearing footsteps, and ominous presence, people seeing shadows, you know,
and fleeting shado is walking down the corridor, and you know,
all of that sort of stuff, and it feels as
though there is a location where you've got a lot
(38:08):
of activity, and a lot of activity that continues to
this day every time an investigator steps in. So yeah,
hopefully that answers your question.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
No, it sure does. And and I know times running
out because I know you're you're getting ready to you're
on your tours, and I don't want to keep you
too much longer. But I had the chance to go
to Buddha Castle and Buddha Pest where Vlad the Impaler
was imprisoned a couple of years ago, and I was
the same way. Uh my spouse was with me, scared
(38:40):
to death, but I was like, let's go. And I
mean it's dark and you know, wet and all kinds
of stuff, and I loved it. And I've not had
the opportunity to go with someone like you. I'd love
to come to Europe and go on an investigation with.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yes, next time, next time you're this part of the
big pond, do drop me a line and we can
do that. I will an investigation love that.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
But yeah, it's funny how some people love this. And
two more questions, maybe three, but so we always hear
the dark side of investigation. Have you ever it just
popped in my head. Have you ever had a spirit
that you saw that actually had humor?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Oh? That's yes, And with a slight caveat that, I
think in this country we have maybe a more of
a leaning towards the less demonic side of things, so
you don't see so many negative hauntings or negative responses
(39:47):
as you might see in North America. Having said that,
there are still very scary and very negative places. But yes,
there was one case and it wasn't something I witnessed,
but it is one of those moments people have said
to me, has there ever been any that's convinced you?
And there are a couple of things, but there's one
particular experience that happened in a case that I think
(40:09):
is one of those moments where you go, yeah, it's
very difficult to explain, and it's exactly that there's humor
in it. And it's a case called the batter Sea
Poltergeist and the bat Sea Poltergeist was a case that
happened in Battersea, which is a part of London, back
in nineteen fifties, and it is a poltergeist case that
ran for twelve years. I think it's one of the
(40:33):
longest running poltergeist cases. But the activity was at its
peak in the first couple of years and then it
just dropped off and became less frequent as the years
rolled on. But those first two years was excessive and
it centered around a young girl, Shirley, and her family
that were there in the house and witnessed lots and
(40:54):
lots of different phenomena, and there are some scary moments,
people getting pulled off a bed, spontaneous fire pans being
thrown around in the kitchen, loud noises, awful kind of messages,
and scratching on the wall. So there's stuff there that
is negative. But in the middle of that there is
an interesting, humorous moment. And when people ask me about
(41:14):
that case and any of the other cases, they always say, hell, Kieran,
you must be impressed with all of that phenomena. I go, no,
I'm not. And there's explanations for all of that stuff,
but there's not an explanation for this one moment, and
that is when the family were in a room and
there are five of them, and they all reported a
(41:35):
pair of slippers falling off a table and walking out
of the room. Wow, now you know, I could be
in a situation if somebody says, you know, I think
you know the slippers kind of floated off the table
and landed on the floor. I go, oh, they could
(41:57):
have fallen off. It could be on a number of things.
But tell me how five people can hallucinate or misinterpret
a pair of slippers falling off a table and literally
walking out of the room. You can't. You can't do
that unless all five of them colluded to make it up,
(42:18):
which is unbelievable myself, because one of them was actually
very skeptical about a lot of the phenomena, would not
go along with some of the phenomenos experience. So all
five of them reported this very odd moment that for me,
it's just one of the funniest moments in cases that
I've heard of a pair of slippers.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
But it's scary and funny at the same time. But
I'm sure the skeptic was probably not much skeptic after that,
So that's true. That's true. So for before we get
out of here, what are some of this maybe top
three haunted locations that either you've heard of or that
you've experienced that people that may want to able to.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
If we talk. Yes, So if we're talking about Europe
a number of different ones. So we mentioned about catacombs,
I would say that would be in my top three.
I would say also, if you're going to France to
visit the catacombs, go to Chateau de Bressac, which is
in the Loire Valley, often on lists of being one
(43:26):
of the top most haunted locations in Europe. And I'm
not sure why other than the fact that there is
a repeatable phenomena that happens, and that is that the
green Lady is seen in that particular chateau, and it
centers around a murder that happened many centuries ago. There
(43:49):
was a couple living there, Charlotte Debrez, and she was
having an affair and the husband killed her and her lover,
and Charlotte is said to haunt the corridors of the
castle and she's seen as a green lady. Now, that's
the only real phenomena that's associated there but it's such
(44:10):
a repeatable phenomena and consistent phenomena that I think that
would be one of the locations that I think people
should visit if they're this side of the pond, so
that chateaudu Brisac. It's a shame that people can't go
and investigate the Tower of London, but you can visit
it as a tourist, so I would one hundred percent
(44:30):
recommend that people do that. And then the third location
I think would probably be Castle Leslie, which is a
vast manor house on the borders of Ireland and Northern Ireland,
and some people might know it if they're huge Beatles fans,
(44:56):
but effectively it was the place where Paul McCartney when
he first got married, he took his wife, they had
their honeymoon there. It's a lovely, lovely manner, but it
is again one of those locations that's deceptive. You look
at it and it feels quite welcoming and it feels lovely,
but actually the phenomena associated with there and when people
(45:17):
stay there they have quite negative experiences. So I think
that would be in my top three, apart from all
of the other ones that I said already, which would
be in my top five. So Hampton Court Palace, you
know I've just given you my top three Kataku, Chateau
Dubrezac also Castle Leslie in Tower of London. If you
(45:37):
do nothing else and you are a ghost fan and
you come to London, then do go and visit Hampton
Court Palace. It is just an amazing location, especially that
haunted history.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
I love it. Thank you for sharing that. And before
we go, tell us about your tour in your podcast,
so people that are over here might want to if
they're in the area or go on over there, they
might want to participate, So tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yes. So I am am part of a podcast called
Uncanny and each episode, individuals tell their story, their ghostly story,
their haunting story, and it's done in a very respectful
way so that the story is presented. We hear their voice,
we hear everything that they've experienced, and then myself representing
(46:28):
Team Skeptic, I've got my t shirt there tem Skeptic,
my self representing Team Skeptic kind of does a little
bit of scientific analysis of the experience they've had. And
then my colleague Evelyn Hollow as part is Leeds Team
Believer and she gives her perspective from believer thing, but
all done in a very respectful way. The person has
had the experience, there's nothing we can take away from that.
(46:50):
And that's what's resulted in the success of this podcast
that's on the BBC. We're into like six seven series
of that, and off the back of that, it was
a BBC two television series that individuals I think can watch.
I think it's got international reach. And off the back
of that we are doing a theater tour, an Uncanny
(47:12):
Theater Tour, which started last night in Manchester in England
and it runs till the end of March. So if
anybody's visiting between now and the end of March, do
look out for Uncanny tickets and the Uncanny Theater Tour.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Love it. I wish I was there to see it,
but are definitely gonna subscribe to your podcast. Lastly, something
to leave on because you said Ghostbusters was your inspiration
of the cast of the Ghostbusters egon Doctor Peter Ray
and Winston which one are.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
You about about ten years ago? I would always say
Vankman ten fifty because he was the coolest all say Venkman.
But now I'm in my older years, and I do
a lot of experimental research at the lab. I even
have on my bag my inspiration which is Spangler. Yeap,
(48:13):
so there you go.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Love it well, thank you, and I appreciate you for
doing what you do and then taking a time out
of your busy schedule to zoom in from across the pond.
So appreciate you for being here.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Absolute pleasure. So it's been great chatting with you, some
amazing questions. So yeah, wonderful and yeah, hopefully we can
do it again.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Oh don't worry, we will. We will as long as
you say yes. Well, go to your Instagram. Oh yeah,
thank it's oh Keef Kieran, I think yep, yep. And
do you have a website people can go to or no.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
So if you go to any of my social media
accounts and I'm on x I'm on Facebook as well,
you can find a link tree account. So if anybody
knows link Tree, just look up link Tree, look up
my full name Kira O'Keefe. You'll find all of the
information about my research and about tools and podcasts and
various things.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Perfect. Well, thank you so much, congratulations on everything, and
thank you everybody for being here on truth be told.
We appreciate you for spending time with us. As always,
we're here every Friday, and we'd love to hear from
your amazing own experiences, and we hope that you share
your stories with us, and please subscribe and follow us
(49:34):
and share this show. And thank you for always being
here for me for these many years. So until next time,
take care of yourself and each other. We'll see you soon.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
Bye,
Well, welcome back to Truth Be Told, where we dive
deep into the mysteries, the unexplained, and the downright chilling.
Today we are joined by one of Europe's most respected
paranormal investigators, doctor Kieran O'Keefe, known for his work on
Most Haunted and paranormal Lockdown. Kieran brings not only decades
(00:21):
of field experience, but also scientific approach that challenges the myth,
legends and hauntings we think we understand. From ancient castles
to abandoned asylums, Kieran has investigated some of the most
haunted places across Europe. We'll be exploring his experiences inside
these legendary locations, uncovering histories behind the hauntings and asking
(00:46):
the ultimate question what lingers? What really lingers in the shadows?
So get ready for a journey through Europe's darkest corridors
and most restless spirits. I'm Tony, sweet the Truth Be Told.
Please welcome become to the Truth Be Told Studios for
the first time Doctor Kieran O'Keefe. Oh there he is
(01:09):
the rock star of the UK right there.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
You know, Hello, Tony, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I'm doing wonderful? Thank you so much for being here,
and it's always nice to see our paranormal peers from
across the pond, and uh, it's it's uh, it doesn't
get boring for me for the United States, but it's
it's nice to spread out the love to other parts
of the world. So thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Love it. No, I'm I'm honored, genuinely honored. It's a
privilege to be Thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Well, my first thing is you know you're a doctor
of psychology. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, doctor of psychology, but also in that I specialize
in parapsychology and also forensic psychology as well.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
How okay, I know people love when I dive right
into you know, just going into the first question about
paranormal But how does a doctor of psychology get into
this world of paranormal? I know you said parapsychology, about
how did you get into this world in the first place?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
That's a really good question. I guess. I've always been
fascinated by ghost stories, even as a child, you know,
a young boy. I was a foracious reader of classic
ghost authors m R James HP. Lovecraft, for example, and
even contemporary authors Stephen King, Clive Barker, et cetera, to
(02:40):
the extent where my parents were genuinely worried about my
reading habits because I were too young to be reading
that sort of stuff. So that fascination was there. And
then fast forward a few years and in nineteen eighty four,
I saw the movie Ghostbusters, and that cemented an interest
I you know, I knew movie, but I even called
(03:02):
up Columbia University at the time that was featured in
the movie to ask them about their lab that's featured
in the film. And luckily, the person that answered the
phone it sounded as though she had received lots of
similar calls from ignorant people, but she took pity on
me because I was a young boy, and she told
me about the Institute of Parapsychology in North Carolina, the
(03:24):
one where it all started and that used to be
associated with Duke University back in the nineteen thirties, and
that sparked an interest. You know, that wasn't just now
reading ghost stories. It was learning about the science of
this sort of stuff. But I was still interested in
the psychology side, so it kind of started a journey
of discovery in psychology in parapsychology, and actually, you know
(03:48):
you're calling me from the States. I did my undergraduate
degree at a liberal arts college in the States, Washington
College in Maryland, about you know, forty five minutes or
so from Annapolis, that many of your listeners and watchers
will know. And there I double majored in psychology and
(04:08):
also music. But whilst I was doing the psychology, I
did a lot of work down at the Institute of
Parapsychology on my dissertation, which looked at paranoral beliefs and
that sort of stuff, And then did a master's and PhD.
And even though some of those further qualifications were around
forensic psychology and kind of thinking about psychological assistance for
(04:29):
police investigations, I still always maintained an interest in ghosts,
specifically ghosts, but also the wider paranormal area. And then
when I did my PhD, I focused on mediums and
psychics and astrologers and that sort of thing. And then
that turned into an academic career specializing in psychology but
(04:53):
also the psychology of the paranormal, so delivering courses at
university and I continue to do research to this day
well as all the media stuff as well.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I love it. And you're actually well known for blending
skepticism with your investigations, which I appreciate because sometimes here
in the States, some of these stories they go right
into like look, look there, there's there's one, there's one,
there's no one. Yeah. I mean it's like I walk
into a room and I may feel a chill, but
(05:22):
I don't see anything. Ever, so a lot of people
are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, But how do you balance
being open minded while keeping still keeping that scientific lens.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Again, that's a really good question. I guess I need
to start by clarifying when we talk about skeptic and skeptical. Please,
too often the label skeptic is confused with the label cynic.
Cynic it's very closed minded, you know, the same way
as somebody who's dogmatic. It's very closed minded. A skeptic
(05:55):
is somebody that's open minded but questioning. And I think
a lot of people, even a lot of investigators, will
actually be skeptical, but they will be questioning. They will
be looking at stuff and asking questions about what's happening.
So we need to be aware of that. I think
what's interesting for me is that I through all of
(06:16):
my training, I've been involved in the scientific study of
this sort of stuff, so I'm aware of the psychology,
I'm aware of the environmental explanation, and I'll go into
a haunted location as a gachbuster effectively, because I still
love investigating, even though much of my stuff is involved
in the lab. And the balance comes from not immediately
(06:36):
running away with a paranormal explanation. I think that key
is just if something happens, then it's making sure that
it's recorded in some way. And I don't necessarily mean
that it has to be on video, but at least
there's some record of it happening, a time stamp, a
date stamp, even a little description of it if you
don't have access to a camera or a phone to
(06:58):
record it. But in doing that, you're also then looking
at other possible explanations. So the balance comes from me.
For investigations, I have a list of natural explanations depending
on what the experience is, which of course can be
you can see something here, something feel something, all of that.
So I have a list of natural explanations and it's
(07:19):
almost like I'm ticking off all of those. When I
get to the bottom. There is a supernatural explanation. And
that's kind of how I have that balance. I'm open
minded to the possibility. I would love to be able
to pick up the phone and go, we got one,
but I will very much approach it from a scientific perspective.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And what is some of the bigger myths, Because when
you do mention a TV show or a reality show,
a lot of times there's myths about ghost hunting that
people often get wrong. And what do you see of
being one of those television personalities that people are getting wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I think the biggest myth out there about ghost hunting
is that you walk into a haunted location and it
all kicks off. You know. You see that happen on
so many paranorm shows. And don't get me wrong, I've
been part of them, you know myself, and I still
am to an extent, and I love them, you know,
on the ones that come out of North America. There
(08:27):
are so many of them, and I am just such
an addict when it comes to these reality shows. But yeah,
the common trope is you walk into a haunted location
and suddenly it happens. For anybody that knows ghost hunting,
a lot of it can be just like watching paint dry.
You know, you can just be sitting in a dark
location and nothing happens, and I think that is one
(08:50):
of the biggest myths for me. The other one, of course,
is around the use of equipment. People are frequently using
equipment that has its purpose for something else. So an
EMF meter is a classic example that is a specifically
a meter for measuring electromagnetic fields and people using it
as a ghost detector. Well, that's wrong, and we continuously
(09:14):
do that in TV shows because it beeps and it
flashes and it looks brilliant, But actually we should be
using an EMF meter to show that people's experiences are real.
And what I mean by that is there's research to
show that electromagnetic fields can affect our brain in such
a way that we may hallucinate. Well, if somebody has
(09:35):
an experience, point the EMF meter at their head, if
that's not going off, then you know, potentially there's not
EMF kind of circulating in the area that might be
causing the hallucination. So if it doesn't go off, that's
better than all of the flashing and stuff like that.
With the caveat. I know how TV works, and we
(09:56):
like to have all of the flashy stuff and it
all looks very scientific. It could lovely, so I recognize that.
But yeah, I think those are the two biggest myths
in my world.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I love I love how you explain that. I think
people will appreciate that, and I know people that watch
these shows or even people that are going into haunted places.
And from your opinion, do you think paranormal activity is
more of psychological environmental are just just truly supernatural supernatural?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I'm going to sound like a politician when I say
that it feels as though it's a mix of all
of that, And that might surprise some people because they
even though I declare myself as a skeptic, people might
be thinking from what I'm saying, Ah, he says that,
but he's a scientist and he's dismissive and he's cynical.
But no, I'm genuinely open minded to the possibility. But
(10:55):
is it purely psychological and purely environment or purely environmental?
I think it's a combination of those. But I think
in some instances you will have haunted locations where it's
a combination of the psychology in the environment. But there
are those little how can I put it nuggets, those
gold nuggets, those experiences that people have where you just go,
(11:18):
how on earth can you explain that? Seriously, unless the
person who's told you the story is flat out lying,
how on earth can you explain it? You know? And
those are the moments I love, And that's what I mean.
There's a combination. So even in those haunted locations where
people are having what appeared to be genuine experiences, you
(11:38):
still cannot separate psychology or the environment from those experiences.
There still have to be there, but there still also
might be an authentic, genuine paranormal experience happening, the psychology
happening all the time. And if you walk into a
haunted location, the very fact that you are in a
location means that there is some aspect of the environment
(11:58):
that's at work.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I think it's funny when when people watch a horror
film it seems like their sensitivity to paranormal activity heightens
because it puts you on edge. And I wonder if
by somebody just saying this house is haunted, it already
(12:22):
puts you in a mindset, psychological mindset of okay, watch
for things that I probably normally wouldn't watch for if
I was just walked into the yes, the home without
even being told that. So I because I've done that
where you know, I've walked in and like nothing bothered me,
(12:45):
but somebody said, oh yeah, when I was here last time,
I saw two eyes looking out of this back closet
and you're like, oh, and that kind of and then
you start thinking about things. So that's why I feel
the psychology sometimes plays a role in it. But I
grew up in a haunted or a haunted home where
(13:06):
I was a child that saw an old man harmless,
but we think it was probably the guy that built
the home. He was the bank owner and so he
had built this home. But I'm assuming that's what it
was because my nephew years later saw the same old man.
So something like that. I I nobody told me about it,
(13:30):
you know, like, ohether it's haunted. It just happened. So
but psychologically, if somebody tells you something, or if you've
seen a horror film the night before, I think possibly
that could be exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And I think there's two things in psychology we talk
about suggestion, and that's exactly how tony this idea that
if you suggest to somebody that a place is haunted,
they're more likely to misinterpret mundane experiences being something haunting.
And the classic example I always give my students is
(14:05):
if I tell you a location is haunted and you
walk in there and you feel a breeze on the
back of your neck, you may think, oh, there's something
behind me, or there's a spirit that's just passed behind me.
If you walk into an office, you know, in a
high rise, and you feel a breeze on the back
of your neck, you're probably looking for the air conditioning
the open window, and that's the difference between the two. Now,
(14:25):
I also recognize there'll be investigators out there who, when
they feel a breeze on the back of the neck,
will be trying to discount that the window is open
and all that sort of stuff. That's absolutely fine, but
it's just a way of illustrating suggestion. So you're absolutely
right what we say and what prior knowledge we have
about an experience or a location can impact us or
influence us. But I think there's also another part which
(14:48):
you hit on perfectly, and that is the horror movie
analogy that you said kind of almost primed, and I
always say never underestimate the power of fear, because that's
ultimately what it is. You know, there's loads of research
showing the impact that fear has on our body, you
(15:08):
know that heart rate and lung capacity. It increases our
electrodermal activity, so our sweat response. But it also starts
playing with our brain and messes with our perception, and
if we have too much of it, then it can
tip us over the edge. And exactly like you say,
we're almost overly primed to then have a haunting experience
(15:32):
and it's very difficult to get away from that. And
of course, you know, as ghost hunters we often work very,
very late night. So if you combine suggestion and fear
and tiredness, right, it's almost a recipe for ghostly disaster,
isn't it.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
But also, if you think about it, also spirits when
you are your most vulnerable, spirits can feel that. It's
almost like a horse that feels the writer is fearful,
so they take advantage of that. So I don't know
if that's possible that those feelings combined allow spirits to
(16:11):
come into your presence easier. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I think that's an interesting idea. I wouldn't buy into
that at all from my perspective in terms of kind
of creating an open door. But I'm going to turn
it on its head slightly and kind of agree with you,
but not necessarily in terms of opening the door in
terms of fear or that spirits can see that and
(16:36):
they feed off in some way. I'm going to argue
the point in terms of the open mindedness nature of
it is that you know, if you have that fearful
element and that suggested, you know, suggestive element, you can
become open minded to the possibility that you're going to
have an experience in that particular location. And I think
(16:58):
open mindedness, but so belief can play a factor. And
a classic example is I did an investigation of a
haunted warehouse in the north of England many years ago,
now about eighteen years ago, and the group that I
was with we started off and somebody felt a little
(17:19):
bit odd and I said, okay, well, you know, let's
carry on because of course you're feeling a bit odd
because we're in a haunted okay for Vesco, and somebody
just went kieran, shut up, stop with the skepticism tonight.
Can we ask you to do one thing for us,
and that is to leave kind of the skeptical side
and just for one night, just become a complete, devout
(17:42):
believer that everything you experience is going to be a
genuine experience. Just get into that mindset, almost like your
role playing, but really immerse yourself. And it was an
interesting experience. I thought, Okay, fine, you know, I'll give
this a go. And it wasn't faking that I was believing.
I really try to get into that mindset of believing
(18:05):
that there were genuinely ghosts there and believing that every
little knock, every little feeling I had, every little change
in temperature, everything that happened was down to a ghost.
And I tell you what, the number of experiences I
had that night was immense, absolute immense. And I'm not
(18:26):
saying that proves the psychology element. You could look at
it and say, yeah, absolutely, that proves psychology. You could
look at it in another way, and That's where I'm
going to agree with you, and that is that you
need to be potentially in the right mindset to have
genuine experiences. And so that's what I mean. I don't
necessarily buy into the idea that goes to a feed
(18:48):
of it, but there's an element of that in terms
of you need to be in the right mindset. And
I always say to people, I'm potentially the worst person
to have on an investigation because things don't happen. Having
that right mindset, I think is quite key. So kind
of that's a fifty to fifty agreement with you. That's
all right, I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
It's a win for me. You know, I told you
my experience, and I feel like a lot of people
in the paranormal. In paranormal, you know, it is a
huge bubble of different genres, you know, UFO and ghosts
and and I you know, I've had a UFO experience
and it did kind of really put me on this
(19:29):
track of being in this field. And so I always
ask the people that are in this what was your
experience your first experience not just watching Ghostbusters, but an
experience of walking into a haunted place or feeling something
or seeing a spirit for the first time. When was that.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
There are two experiences in my formative years and they
are around the same time, when I was about eight
nine years old, so you're young. Yeah. So one of them,
the first one was visiting a village in Devon So
on the south coast of England, an old, very old
(20:12):
fishing village. You can't even drive into the village. You
have to walk in, park your car at the top
and walk into the village. It's a lovely, lovely place.
But we were walking near that village past a cave
on the coast and I felt a real chill down
the back of my neck. I thought, this is weird,
and it wasn't. Somebody opened the window and you feel cold.
(20:35):
I think people know what I'm talking about, if they've
had this experience in a haunted environment. You feel that
genuine chill, you know this is really odd. We then
walked from there up to the tourist information office within
the center of the village, and we were looking and
I was just rifling through kind of these old newspapers
and the kind of mock up of old newspapers. And
(20:59):
about one hundred and fifty to two hundred years prior
to this point, there had been an incestuous cannibalistic family,
oh Wow, who had hidden themselves and the population of
the local area dropped by close to one hundred people
(21:20):
because of this family going out in the dead and
night abducting people taking them back to where they were
hiding and you know, having their wiki way and being cannibals. Now,
where did they hide in that cave that I walked
by and got that chill? And I looked down it
and went, oh wow, And there was something in there
(21:40):
that went wow. Did I just pick up on, you know,
the remnants of that horrific family that were in that cave?
Or did I feel a chill simply because it's on
the coast and it's England and it's not the sunniest
day and the wind whipping through the cave? Did I
feel that chill? And then it's pure coincidence that I
(22:03):
happened to you know, So there was something I don't
know what it was, but some element of skepticism that
was always there. But that was a real formative experience
that just kind of instilled that fascination with ghostly experiences
to go, what if you know, that would be amazing.
And I mentioned that as the first one. The other
(22:23):
one was a year later and it was a UFO experience.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Oh you like me?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, it was bizarre. It was Christmas Day nineteen eighty.
We're driving home late that night, so it's Christmas Day morning,
about one two o'clock in the morning from visiting Christmas
friend visiting friends over Christmas, and we're driving back along
this busy road and my dad pulls over the car
(22:52):
and everybody else is doing the same, and they're all
getting out of their cars and looking up into the sky,
and my brother and I are in the backseat look
out as well. We look up to this guy and
we see this big ball of light and these all
these little balls of light behind it. My dad comes
back to the car and he says, boys, here's a notebook.
I want you to draw on it what you see
(23:13):
so we can have a record.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's smart of your dad to do.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Oh, really smart. Now, there's nothing that really happened with
that experience other than it just instilled a fascination with UFOs.
I didn't really suddenly go off from that point and think, oh,
there's all these flying sources of its alien and all
of that. But it instilled a fascination with the whole paranormal.
It wasn't until many years later, at about two and
(23:40):
a half years ago now, on the show that I'm
part of Uncanny, we were doing an episode of Rendullsham Forest,
the Rendulsham UFO case, which is the big UFO case
in England. It's our equivalent of your area fifty one basically,
And we were looking at that particular case investigated, and
(24:01):
I suddenly went hold on a second, and I got
out a map of England and I was looking at
the road that we had taken that particular night, and
it was barely a few miles away from Rendlesham Forest.
That night that we were driving back was Christmas Day
night nineteen eighty, which was the exact night when all
of these military personnel, American military personnel had this experiencing.
(24:25):
When you see you, I suddenly thought, what are the
chances that I've witnessed you know the history associated with that. Yeah,
amazing UFO law. So yeah, those two experiences, I think
we were the most influential in instilling a curiosity and
a fascination with the paranormal. It.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
It just thrilled me too. Now I want to even
do more just through your experience. And I just find
it fascinating when a lot of people, especially you know,
fifteen twenty years ago and before that, were very much
don't say I saw UFO, don't say I saw a cost,
people are gonna think I'm nuts, But now people are
(25:06):
more open. And when you do mention, oh I do
a paranormal show, Oh, oh my gosh. You know, it's
they have their own stories. So I love when people
share me their stories. So thank you for sharing that.
And I did title this podcast Europe's Most Haunted Places,
so we may change that, but well, but I do
(25:29):
find it fascinating that, you know, America, you know, we're
two hundred and fifty, almost fifty years old, but Native
Americans have been here way longer. But Europe has thousands
and thousands of years of history. So there's so much
I couldn't even imagine as a paranormal investigator, where you choose,
(25:55):
how you even choose to pick a spot. So what
was that at when you became this, you know, paranormal investigator.
Where did you start? What was the first place that you,
as a professional paranormal investigator you decided to.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Go. That's a really really good question. You say professional,
I'll go back to actually when I was sixteen, so
I wasn't professional in the sense of well being a
qualified parapsychologist and you know, being known in the media
and doing scientific research. But if I go back to
that one and then I can always you know, go
forward to being a parapsychologist. When I was sixteen years old,
(26:36):
I was living in a place called high Wickham in
England and the village next door to high Wickham is
a place called west Wickham where they have the infamous
health Fire Caves. Oh and I think some people have
heard of that, and it's been on a couple of
American shows since. But when I was sixteen years older,
(26:58):
I approached the owner of the health Fire Caves. And
also there is a huge hill next to the cave
and there's a mausoleum at the top as well. So
kind of approached the owners and said, I'd love to
come and do an investigation. You know, I'm interested in
ghosts and that sort of stuff. And they said how
much will it cost us, which is a complete flip
(27:19):
to how it is now. Now they would be charging
me to go and do an investigation rather than paying
me to do an investigation. There. It is brilliant place,
brilliant place, so beautiful. That is Healthire Cave. That was
the first place really that I investigated. Kind of here's
a structured investigation and I'm actually going to go out
and do that. And a location with a fabulous history,
(27:43):
you know, goes back hundreds and hundreds of years. Originally
it was developed built the one of the Dashwoods, which
is the family that live in westwickham Manor that own
the caves hundreds of years ago. They wanted to create
employment for the locals to kind of pay them in
much the same way that you hear the story about
(28:03):
Winchester Mystery House. That this idea of creating employment. So
they were just basically dig these caves, but actually some
of the material would come out and be used for
the roads locally, but it also gets a reputation for
them hell Fire Club which is said to have conducted
a lot of its naughty activities to put it that way,
(28:26):
in the basement of the health Fire Caves and got
some lovely ghost stories associated with it. So that was
I think that's really kind of That was sixteen, I
guess the first couple of investigations that I conducted when
I really became a professional ghostbuster about thirty years ago.
There are two locations that happened within a couple of
(28:47):
months of each other that are amazing big locations it's
not like I started off small health fire caves, of
course is brilliant. The two real ones would be probably
Oxford Castle, which is the oldest building in Oxford. It
was previously a castle and then it became a prison.
(29:07):
So that was one investigation, and then a couple of
months after that I was with a team of researchers
from a university investigating Hampton Court Palace, which again is
an amazing location and people that don't know the history
need to look it up. It's a palace just outside
of London that was originally built by Cardinal Wolsey in
(29:30):
fifteen fourteen when he died I think it's fifteen twenty
nine around then he handed it over to Henry the
Eighth and Henry the Eighth expanded it to make this magnificent,
magnificent building. But from that point on you get an
interesting history that has formed the trigger for haunting experiences subsequently,
(29:51):
and it's focused around Catherine Howard, Henry the Eighth's fifth wife,
who when Henry found out that she had committed adultery
or he listened to the rumors that she had treated adultery,
he ordered her execution and the story goes that Catherine
Howard was in Hampton Called Palace and she ran to
(30:12):
him in his private chapel, begging Henry not to do
this and begging his forgiveness, and she was dragged by
Night's security basically kicking and screaming along this corridor and
then put onto a boat and take into the Tower
of London and that was it and executed. And since
(30:33):
then people have reported on that particular corridor the sounds
of kicking and screaming kind of you know, somebody's feet
being dragged along, but also oppressive, very negative, very sad
emotional feelings as they're going across in that corridor. And yeah,
I was just very fortunate to have lived in that
(30:56):
location in Hampton called Palace for two weeks part of
an investigation and also a psychology experiment that we did.
So when you asked me, which are the first two
or which is the first one, I would put heal
Fire Caves, then Oxford Castle and Hampton Court Palace.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I love that and I wish I could say that
was my first, but that was not. That sounds very storybooks,
So I love it. And do you feel that because
I love that? You said the one was a castle
turned to a prison, which even enhanced it more. But castles, churches, prison, prisons, asylums.
(31:40):
Is there one that you feel has more activity than
the other or does it really matter?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
There's two ways of looking at it. There are definite
locations where there is more reported activity from others. The
reason why I point to Hampton Court Palace and there's
somebody who feels privileged that I was able to investigate
is because for about one hundred and fifty two hundred years,
even though the original Katherine Howard's story goes back to
the fifteen hundreds, we've got documented history of people having
(32:17):
haunted experiences from about one hundred and fifty two hundred
years ago, from visitor books, from diaries. The curator there
has accumulated all of this, so we've got a lovely
consistency with that experience. So there's an example of a
location where you just go yeah, more than any other
that has so many different experiences that people have reported,
(32:40):
so I would go yeah. Hampton Court Palace is a
key one, but related to Hampton Court Palace, Tower of
London is another one because of its history, because the
number of people who have died there and what went
on there. But there's an element of this, and I
don't want it to sound arrogant, but kind you introduce
the idea of the history here in Europe. You could
(33:03):
almost literally take a pin and put it somewhere in
Europe and you know that within a few hours drive
you're going to find a location that a is beautiful
to look at or is scary to look at because
it's kind of the Gothic version, but ultimately a grand
haunted location that has a wonderful history. If I ask
(33:25):
colleagues you know who are ghost hunters, there are few
that are on the bucket list for ghost hunters, and
I think one of them will always be the catacombs
in Paris.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Oh yeah, I want to go. There's so bad and
I haven't.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I bizarrely, I lived in Paris for a year at
the there. I know it's really bad, and I've just
admitted it, like this is just a rule that I
said that. But yeah, there's a location where you think
about it. A vast network kind of underground tunnels and
rooms from the late seventeen hundreds effectively created to house
(34:01):
dead bodies because they one of the cemeteries in Paris,
one of the big cemeteries, A big wall kind of
smashed and kind of fell onto some of the graves,
and the decision was made very quickly, we need a
safer place to house all of these bodies. And then
in you know, literally a year, there are about twenty
(34:23):
cemeteries within the Paris area where they just shut down.
They took all the bodies and they put them under
the catacombs, and then that continued through history. So the
claim is that there are about six million people buried
in the catacombs. So if ever there was a logic
to where people are buried causing hauntings, that has got
(34:45):
to be the most active place.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
I mean even one percent of If there was just
one percent of those, that's a lot of spirits to
what what is one of the most active locations that
you you have experienced in your you know, years of
doing this that you know you left and go I
(35:08):
don't know if I want to go back there or
have you.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yeah, that's a good question. My wife will laugh at
that particular question because she knows that will never happen.
I'll never be in a location where I go I
don't want to go back there, that that will not happen.
I have, you know, carved out a career for myself,
you know, hunting ghosts effectively or ghostbusting, however you want
to put it. And I'm fascinated by it to the
(35:32):
extent wherever ghost jumped out and shouted boo, I would
not run away. I would be standing there with a
clipboard asking it questions. I've been taking photographs. If anything,
the ghosts will be bored to death, so I don't.
There's no locations that I have been wary about and
scared enough that I won't go back. However, there is
(35:53):
a location that I've investigated a number of times that personally,
I feel is probably one of the most active locations
that I've been in, just because of the number of
experiences that I've witnessed and how people respond to the environment.
And that is a place called Battery Myrus. It is
a Second World War bunker on the Channel Islands on
(36:17):
the Isle of Guernsey that sits between England and France,
and it was part of the occupation in the Second
World War, so it's got quite a negative history associated
with it. But it's a underground bunker that is quite
vast and it has a number of tunnels and a
number of rooms in it, but it has a very
(36:40):
cold atmosphere. It's all kind of very derelict now, but
the imagination runs wild with you in terms of when
you think about the history and who was there and
what they did to the locals in the island. But
visiting there as an investigator, it is one of those
locations where I have seen more experiences from people than
(37:04):
I have in any other location. Pretty Much anybody that
goes in there, even if they have nothing else happened
to them, they will go in there and just go
there's something about this atmosphere that's just not right. And
it's different from walking into a wanted location and go, oh,
this is spooky, this is scary. It's not that it's
(37:25):
to the extent where most people when they go in there,
when I've witnessed them, you know, on public ghost hunts,
but also private going in with private groups and investigating,
when they say it, they go it feels like something's
not right, and as they're saying it, there's that real
sense of they don't want to go any further, they
(37:46):
don't want to step in there, and that is very different.
And you add on to that people hearing voices, people
hearing footsteps, and ominous presence, people seeing shadows, you know,
and fleeting shado is walking down the corridor, and you know,
all of that sort of stuff, and it feels as
though there is a location where you've got a lot
(38:08):
of activity, and a lot of activity that continues to
this day every time an investigator steps in. So yeah,
hopefully that answers your question.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
No, it sure does. And and I know times running
out because I know you're you're getting ready to you're
on your tours, and I don't want to keep you
too much longer. But I had the chance to go
to Buddha Castle and Buddha Pest where Vlad the Impaler
was imprisoned a couple of years ago, and I was
the same way. Uh my spouse was with me, scared
(38:40):
to death, but I was like, let's go. And I
mean it's dark and you know, wet and all kinds
of stuff, and I loved it. And I've not had
the opportunity to go with someone like you. I'd love
to come to Europe and go on an investigation with.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yes, next time, next time you're this part of the
big pond, do drop me a line and we can
do that. I will an investigation love that.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
But yeah, it's funny how some people love this. And
two more questions, maybe three, but so we always hear
the dark side of investigation. Have you ever it just
popped in my head. Have you ever had a spirit
that you saw that actually had humor?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Oh? That's yes, And with a slight caveat that, I
think in this country we have maybe a more of
a leaning towards the less demonic side of things, so
you don't see so many negative hauntings or negative responses
(39:47):
as you might see in North America. Having said that,
there are still very scary and very negative places. But yes,
there was one case and it wasn't something I witnessed,
but it is one of those moments people have said
to me, has there ever been any that's convinced you?
And there are a couple of things, but there's one
particular experience that happened in a case that I think
(40:09):
is one of those moments where you go, yeah, it's
very difficult to explain, and it's exactly that there's humor
in it. And it's a case called the batter Sea
Poltergeist and the bat Sea Poltergeist was a case that
happened in Battersea, which is a part of London, back
in nineteen fifties, and it is a poltergeist case that
ran for twelve years. I think it's one of the
(40:33):
longest running poltergeist cases. But the activity was at its
peak in the first couple of years and then it
just dropped off and became less frequent as the years
rolled on. But those first two years was excessive and
it centered around a young girl, Shirley, and her family
that were there in the house and witnessed lots and
(40:54):
lots of different phenomena, and there are some scary moments,
people getting pulled off a bed, spontaneous fire pans being
thrown around in the kitchen, loud noises, awful kind of messages,
and scratching on the wall. So there's stuff there that
is negative. But in the middle of that there is
an interesting, humorous moment. And when people ask me about
(41:14):
that case and any of the other cases, they always say, hell, Kieran,
you must be impressed with all of that phenomena. I go, no,
I'm not. And there's explanations for all of that stuff,
but there's not an explanation for this one moment, and
that is when the family were in a room and
there are five of them, and they all reported a
(41:35):
pair of slippers falling off a table and walking out
of the room. Wow, now you know, I could be
in a situation if somebody says, you know, I think
you know the slippers kind of floated off the table
and landed on the floor. I go, oh, they could
(41:57):
have fallen off. It could be on a number of things.
But tell me how five people can hallucinate or misinterpret
a pair of slippers falling off a table and literally
walking out of the room. You can't. You can't do
that unless all five of them colluded to make it up,
(42:18):
which is unbelievable myself, because one of them was actually
very skeptical about a lot of the phenomena, would not
go along with some of the phenomenos experience. So all
five of them reported this very odd moment that for me,
it's just one of the funniest moments in cases that
I've heard of a pair of slippers.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
But it's scary and funny at the same time. But
I'm sure the skeptic was probably not much skeptic after that,
So that's true. That's true. So for before we get
out of here, what are some of this maybe top
three haunted locations that either you've heard of or that
you've experienced that people that may want to able to.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
If we talk. Yes, So if we're talking about Europe
a number of different ones. So we mentioned about catacombs,
I would say that would be in my top three.
I would say also, if you're going to France to
visit the catacombs, go to Chateau de Bressac, which is
in the Loire Valley, often on lists of being one
(43:26):
of the top most haunted locations in Europe. And I'm
not sure why other than the fact that there is
a repeatable phenomena that happens, and that is that the
green Lady is seen in that particular chateau, and it
centers around a murder that happened many centuries ago. There
(43:49):
was a couple living there, Charlotte Debrez, and she was
having an affair and the husband killed her and her lover,
and Charlotte is said to haunt the corridors of the
castle and she's seen as a green lady. Now, that's
the only real phenomena that's associated there but it's such
(44:10):
a repeatable phenomena and consistent phenomena that I think that
would be one of the locations that I think people
should visit if they're this side of the pond, so
that chateaudu Brisac. It's a shame that people can't go
and investigate the Tower of London, but you can visit
it as a tourist, so I would one hundred percent
(44:30):
recommend that people do that. And then the third location
I think would probably be Castle Leslie, which is a
vast manor house on the borders of Ireland and Northern Ireland,
and some people might know it if they're huge Beatles fans,
(44:56):
but effectively it was the place where Paul McCartney when
he first got married, he took his wife, they had
their honeymoon there. It's a lovely, lovely manner, but it
is again one of those locations that's deceptive. You look
at it and it feels quite welcoming and it feels lovely,
but actually the phenomena associated with there and when people
(45:17):
stay there they have quite negative experiences. So I think
that would be in my top three, apart from all
of the other ones that I said already, which would
be in my top five. So Hampton Court Palace, you
know I've just given you my top three Kataku, Chateau
Dubrezac also Castle Leslie in Tower of London. If you
(45:37):
do nothing else and you are a ghost fan and
you come to London, then do go and visit Hampton
Court Palace. It is just an amazing location, especially that
haunted history.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
I love it. Thank you for sharing that. And before
we go, tell us about your tour in your podcast,
so people that are over here might want to if
they're in the area or go on over there, they
might want to participate, So tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yes. So I am am part of a podcast called
Uncanny and each episode, individuals tell their story, their ghostly story,
their haunting story, and it's done in a very respectful
way so that the story is presented. We hear their voice,
we hear everything that they've experienced, and then myself representing
(46:28):
Team Skeptic, I've got my t shirt there tem Skeptic,
my self representing Team Skeptic kind of does a little
bit of scientific analysis of the experience they've had. And
then my colleague Evelyn Hollow as part is Leeds Team
Believer and she gives her perspective from believer thing, but
all done in a very respectful way. The person has
had the experience, there's nothing we can take away from that.
(46:50):
And that's what's resulted in the success of this podcast
that's on the BBC. We're into like six seven series
of that, and off the back of that, it was
a BBC two television series that individuals I think can watch.
I think it's got international reach. And off the back
of that we are doing a theater tour, an Uncanny
(47:12):
Theater Tour, which started last night in Manchester in England
and it runs till the end of March. So if
anybody's visiting between now and the end of March, do
look out for Uncanny tickets and the Uncanny Theater Tour.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Love it. I wish I was there to see it,
but are definitely gonna subscribe to your podcast. Lastly, something
to leave on because you said Ghostbusters was your inspiration
of the cast of the Ghostbusters egon Doctor Peter Ray
and Winston which one are.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
You about about ten years ago? I would always say
Vankman ten fifty because he was the coolest all say Venkman.
But now I'm in my older years, and I do
a lot of experimental research at the lab. I even
have on my bag my inspiration which is Spangler. Yeap,
(48:13):
so there you go.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Love it well, thank you, and I appreciate you for
doing what you do and then taking a time out
of your busy schedule to zoom in from across the pond.
So appreciate you for being here.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Absolute pleasure. So it's been great chatting with you, some
amazing questions. So yeah, wonderful and yeah, hopefully we can
do it again.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Oh don't worry, we will. We will as long as
you say yes. Well, go to your Instagram. Oh yeah,
thank it's oh Keef Kieran, I think yep, yep. And
do you have a website people can go to or no.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
So if you go to any of my social media
accounts and I'm on x I'm on Facebook as well,
you can find a link tree account. So if anybody
knows link Tree, just look up link Tree, look up
my full name Kira O'Keefe. You'll find all of the
information about my research and about tools and podcasts and
various things.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Perfect. Well, thank you so much, congratulations on everything, and
thank you everybody for being here on truth be told.
We appreciate you for spending time with us. As always,
we're here every Friday, and we'd love to hear from
your amazing own experiences, and we hope that you share
your stories with us, and please subscribe and follow us
(49:34):
and share this show. And thank you for always being
here for me for these many years. So until next time,
take care of yourself and each other. We'll see you soon.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
Bye,
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