January 20, 2025 • 26 mins
"It's a deep rooted fear of every adoptive parent that the parent will get rejected." - Dr. Asra Ali
Read the transcript of this episode here: https://app.swellai.com/t/tp_01JHS4S4K9DW0G3AZRZKWG970A
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EPISODE SUMMARY:
In this episode of Unraveling Adoption, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Asra Ali, an adoptee from India whose adoption was facilitated by Mother Teresa. Dr. Asra shared her unique adoption story, highlighting the positive experiences she had growing up in a loving family that embraced her identity as an adopted child from a young age.
We delved into the cultural narratives surrounding adoption in India, discussing the historical preference for male children and the significant shifts that have occurred over the years. Dr. Asra explained how adoption practices have evolved, moving from informal arrangements to more structured legal processes to combat issues like human trafficking.
As a psychologist and child and family therapist, Dr. Asra works with adoptive families in India, helping them navigate the complexities of adoption. She emphasized the importance of honesty and emotional support for adopted children, noting that many adoptive parents struggle with insecurity and often keep the child's adoption a secret. This can lead to emotional disconnects and challenges for the child.
Throughout our conversation, Dr. Asra provided valuable insights into the common mistakes adoptive parents make and the need for open communication about adoption. She also shared her mixed feelings about her own adoption, reflecting on the unanswered questions regarding her biological family.
Listeners will find this episode enlightening as we explore the intricacies of adoption in India and the universal themes that resonate with adoptive families worldwide. Dr. Asra's work is a testament to the importance of understanding and supporting adopted children, and I encourage anyone interested in this topic to reach out to her for guidance.
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RESOURCES:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space
to delve into adoption's complexities together. I am
Beth Syverson. I'm an adoptive mom of a bright and insightful
20-year-old son, Joey, who is struggling to find
his path. I'm walking beside him while working on my
own personal growth and healing. Joey and I are committed to helping
(00:22):
anyone impacted by adoption and we want to help the general public
understand adoption's complexities better too. I'm also
a certified coach helping seekers who want to move their lives forward.
For this week's episode, we have our first guest coming from India. Let's
find out what makes adoption in India unique. Dr.
Asra Ali is an adoptee whose adoption was
(00:45):
facilitated by Mother Teresa herself, one
of over 5,000 children who were placed through her missionaries of
charity. She now is a psychologist and child and
family therapist and public speaker, and she primarily serves
adoptive families in India. She will help us understand the
cultural narratives that exist in India about adoption and
(01:06):
how she's trying to improve lives for adopted people there. So
welcome to Unraveling Adoption. Dr. Asra, I'm glad you're here. Thank
you so much, Beth. Thank you. It's a pleasure being here. I
should say we have had an Indian adoptee on, but he grew
up here. So you're my first Indian adoptee
(01:26):
Well, I would love to know your adoption story. It's
pretty fascinating to me over here that Mother Teresa was
involved in your adoption or her organization. I'm not sure how closely she
was tied, but I would love to hear from you what you
Yeah. So basically my dad was into construction and
(01:47):
my parents always decided that they would like to
adopt children rather than have their own. They had
this social thing going on for a couple of years and
they were really lucky that they got an opportunity to help
out Mother Teresa's nursery and my dad
was invited and so did my mom go and no
(02:08):
familiarity happened and it was great, it was fun.
They learned a lot about my parents and somewhere
down the road, I think Mother Teresa felt that my sister
and me were, you know, these were the people that they would like
to give us into. And we fell in, I think they fell in love
with us the minute they saw us. And
(02:29):
that is how Mother Teresa actually came into picture.
So she was the one who actually initiated and
helped my adoptive parents adopt us. And
she felt we fit in perfectly into the family. So my
older sister, who's like five years older than me, she
has also been given up for adoption. through Mother Teresa. And
(02:51):
exactly after five years, I think Mother Teresa felt they really
took care of my sister. And so I think they
felt it's great that I also would be a great member of the family.
Okay, very good. And Tell me about the
culture around adoption. I hope I have that statistic right, that
she facilitated over 5,000 children being adopted through her
(03:14):
organization. Is adoption in India, like
domestic adoption, what is the cultural status of
So the cultural status comes with the very thought of
gender. So gender plays a very important role in
our culture. Of course, back in those days. Today, it is not that
bad. People would prefer having adopted
(03:35):
a male child than a female child. And that
is one of the cultural differences back in those days. Whereas
today, we see it's pretty much equal. So there is a
huge shift in culture. That's also one of the reasons why
in India we had female foeticide being one
of the biggest issues. Oh, really? Yeah. And one
(03:56):
of the main reasons a lot of people today, in
today's day and age, choose to adopt is because of
their lifestyle. They have certain biological issues
going on, the kind of food, the mental health
issues, and some actually choose for
themselves to adopt. So there is this huge shift from back
(04:17):
in those days to now. And culturally,
in the olden days, what would happen, it would be the grandparents
who would take care of the kids. It would normally be a joint
family venture. Today, I'll say, for example, there's a couple
who couldn't conceive. there would be an aunt or
somebody who would actually give the child to them because they would
(04:39):
have too many kids, hence the population. So
that came in as an adoption, as a legal thing,
because it also became an illegal concept at some point. So
people would just pick up kids, deliver them and hand it
over to someone. So that became a legal issue at some point.
Oh, OK. So you was pretty loose, just like, oh, well,
(05:01):
I guess I'll take this kid. And then eventually people created
paperwork and bureaucracies around it and made it more of
a legal thing. And that's good in your eyes
Absolutely. Because it's very unfortunate. Children
get sold to couples who can't conceive. OK,
so there was a lot of trafficking. Yes, absolutely. Human
(05:22):
trafficking is there. Especially when it comes to a gender.
So the gender is a big deal in India. So that is a cultural shift.
So boys were more valued. Absolutely. Or
are. Absolutely. And today things have changed.
Yeah. OK, things are getting better. Yeah, absolutely. OK,
good, good, good. And I know many Indian
(05:45):
adoptees that live in America that were inter-country adopted here. But
how common is adoption in India domestically? Do
Most kids stay in the country. So as
per adoption agency, they have certain rules. So
the rules are if the parents, the future adoptive parents
(06:06):
belong to India, they are citizens of the country, they
prefer having the child being here. Because the very
fact that the child may be going out, there is a trust issue
that happens. So a lot of documentation work goes in. Because
it is very unfortunate, but a lot of couples do adopt kids
from India, and they also utilize them
(06:28):
and misuse them abroad. So we have cases of abuse, we
have cases of using them like helpers, not
treating them right. Yeah, like maids. So, absolutely like
maids. So, many a times this is also an issue, but things
have obviously evolved. Hence, there is this huge
rule, they do a lot of background check, they have police verification,
(06:50):
they actually check the income of the couple. and if
they are the ones who actually keep the child or
are they taking the child, are they standing in queue for
that child and giving it away or selling the child Okay,
a lot of systems have come in an order to because there are a lot
of families who want kids But don't get an
(07:11):
opportunity So the more the filters we add
in the form or online the tougher it gets for
the couples, right? So if they're not going to look at ethnicity complexion
Gender, it's easier for them to get an adopted child. It's quicker.
Oh But if they start having filtration like say
example They want a kid who's probably British or fair, complexion-wise,
(07:36):
or they are specific about having a gender. Like,
I want a male kid or a female kid. So when you have
choices given like this, lower the chances of adoption. So
Okay. And complexion is a real thing. I know in a lot of Asian
countries that lighter, complexed people are more
(07:57):
desirable or something. Is that in India too? Unfortunately,
yeah. I know. Yeah, it's terrible, huh? Oh, gosh,
that's really tough. And tell me, before I get too far along, tell me about
your childhood. How did you do in your adoptive family? How did you do with
So the word adoption was introduced to
(08:21):
So they would keep telling me, you know, you're lucky and You
have been adopted. We are lucky to have you. So a lot of positive
strokes would keep going in. So the entire approach was
very positive. Of course, we didn't know as kids what it meant, but
as we grew, we could connect. That was one. Another factor
was the appearance, the physical appearance. We
(08:44):
started realizing that we don't look like them. So that's when
questions come in, right? And why are we not so tall?
See, for a child, it is always the physical, the look. Basically,
how do you look? How do you connect? Genetic coding. Why don't I
look like my mom? Or why don't I look like my dad? Right?
Which is very typical and very normal in any adoptive
(09:05):
child, for that matter. So, we were introduced very positively.
And my dad also being a psychologist himself,
who's also into human behavior, and my mom, who's also
done her master's in psychology, both of them knew how to
handle it. And every time we had queries, they
(09:27):
They would answer it to us. And we would also go
for these tiny camps that we had for
adoptive children. So they used to be the social gatherings. Yeah,
that still happens. Something that we
have in our country is something called the adoption plays.
So there is open awareness towards it. Of course, we do know that
(09:49):
we have counseling, but we have special counseling cases also.
Okay. You
And that's what you do now, right? Absolutely. That's your job. You work
(10:09):
right with adoptive families and kids. Absolutely. Yeah. Wow.
Well, it sounds like your parents were pretty aware and self-aware
and helpful. What do you see adoptive parents today
in your practice? What are the mistakes that they're making? What are they goofing up?
So I think a lot of parents are a little insecure because
they haven't been told how they have to tell and talk to
(10:32):
the child. They go wrong there. And it's a lot of
hush-hush even till day. They do not want to tell
their in-laws. They don't want to tell their neighbors. And in fact,
they're scared. Oh, they try and keep it secret. Absolutely. They
try and keep a secret to the child. Oh, wow. That never
works out well. So they do not reveal it to the child. And
(10:52):
the other is they try to keep shifting schools if they get to
know. Oh, so if someone finds out, they just yank the kid
out. Yeah, absolutely. And
instead of addressing the issue, they try to run
away from the issue. And they think it is best that
the child doesn't know, because I'll tell you one thing. It's
(11:13):
a deep rooted fear of every adoptive parent
that the parent will get rejected. So this is universal.
This has got nothing to do with Indian thing, but it's universal.
Sure, sure, sure. No. Yeah. And the whole, where's my
real parent? You know, the adoptive parents are like, I am your real parent. What
about me? And yeah, that insecurity and
(11:34):
God, that is so tough for adoptive parents. Ideally, they
would work on it before they even adopted, but no one does that.
And so they come to your office and they're like, what do we do?
Are kids acting out or are kids having trouble? And we
So unfortunately, a lot of parents come when
(11:55):
it is almost too late. Somebody has either told
the child or added that in the child's mind
that you look different from your parents so the child also wouldn't have realized and
when they start showing certain symptoms in school like
probably the child is showing a symptom which is a classic symptom of
learning disability that we see or emotional disturbances or
(12:17):
any behavioral problems that is exactly when
parents wake up and say hey something is wrong they forget that
it could be because somebody has hurt the
child by probably telling something very tiny like,
why aren't you as tall as your mom? Or why
aren't you as fair as your dad? Or you guys
(12:39):
don't look like a family. Are you really a family? So
when these questions are thrown and issues come,
They're visible. That is when they come. Whereas, bang
on, I have a set of parents who call me up and say,
we are planning to adopt a child. Can you kindly guide
us? Yes, we have both sets. Oh, that's nice. Can you kindly guide
(13:02):
us on how do we go about, what is
the process? So I tell them, more the filtration, less
are the chances. It's a very simple technique. More
the filtration, less are the chances. Explain that some more. Of
getting the child adopted. Yeah. Okay. So when we say, like
I mentioned earlier, more the filters, like the gender, complexion,
(13:23):
personality that you're looking for. Yeah, more filters. Okay. More
the filters, less are the chances of you. It's like a queue. You're
right in the front. You're at probably fourth
one, standing in the queue as a parent, virtual queue, and
you're waiting for your number. So there are three parents,
three couples who are waiting. You're the fourth one. So
(13:44):
the first one said, it doesn't matter to us, whatever we get, we will
take it with open arms. The second one says, I want a
girl only. So there, from the second, they go to the eighth.
So this is a cycle. And suppose the fourth one says,
no, I want a boy who's extremely fair or extremely
tall. We want to see the genetic coding. We want to see the medical
(14:06):
issues. We want to see if there's any disability. They go right at
Yeah, so that slow it down. Now, it
hurts to hear those kind of desires. It's
kind of like placing an order, right? It feels like, well,
this is what I want. And you know, when you give birth, you
don't get to pick any of that. You just get whatever
(14:29):
happens. And I feel like adoptive parents, they're
kind of like shopping. Well, it is kind of like shopping. And it's
a little distasteful, don't you think, that people are like, well, I want this
perfect child exactly the way I want it. the
child, maybe it will come just like they asked for, but maybe
their child will have a learning disability or maybe they'll
(14:50):
be gay or maybe they'll be whatever. And sheesh, I
don't know if those types of parents that put in a big wish list are going to be the kind that
are going to be open to whatever arrives, you
It does happen. It does happen. It's the reality. Many
of them say, for example, if we have, like you rightly pointed
(15:11):
out with regard to a child being gay, immediately, because
the parent is not ready to accept, he or she will say, oh,
They blame everything on adoption. And this is not a
generic thing, but it is somewhere out there, right? So
there is this wonderful thing that I would like to share with you. There was a
(15:32):
couple who had two biological girls and chose to adopt
another child. So there were some, you know, tiny misunderstandings
between children as they were growing up. So the kid turned around
and tried to complain to the mom. And at some point, the
child learned that he or she needs to fight her own battles.
So she turned around and she said, Hey, you know what? I'm so happy
(15:54):
I'm adopted. At least I was chosen, but they did not
have a choice with you. You came the way you are. You
That's right, that's right. Oh my gosh. That's a very different
thought. For sure, that's a good way to turn
it on its head. Wow. And now that you're an adult and
(16:15):
you're working with families and seeing kind of the
effects of adoption every day in your practice, when you think
about Mother Teresa now, what feelings do you
So to be very honest, I think it's a very mixed feeling. Sometimes
I feel, oh, wow, it's a great social cause. But
(16:37):
as an adopted child, sometimes I have often
wondered, not that I'm not happy or something, but I
feel if that wouldn't happen, probably I would be with my biological parents.
So I feel like you have been taken away. So
it's not a very positive feeling. Do you know what happened with
your biological parents? No, I don't. I don't. It does
(17:01):
Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You cannot get your records.
OK. There's no records. It's very close. So you don't even
know if you truly were an orphan or if your parents are
still alive. You have no idea. Absolutely. We don't know. Oh, so much. So
you just wonder. You just wonder. Gosh. And I wonder if
an organization would have come around your birth family and
(17:22):
given them the resources they need if you would have been able to stay. I mean,
It used to be a very open conversation. Again, like I mentioned, they were open. So
probably while I was growing up, I did tell them that, why don't
we go back to the orphanage and find my birth mom? I
was somehow not fascinated with the father. I don't know why. I
(17:43):
hear that a lot. But it's the mother that connects. Yeah. We don't care
about the father. always a mother. So I
don't know why it happens but it happens. It's a very natural thing I
guess. So I said I want to go and see if my
birth mom is alive. I want to go and see if I have siblings and
for some reason I am very stuck up
(18:05):
to the twin and I don't know why. And
I did read about this. I did a little research. So it
says there is a small percentage of adoptive children
while they're growing up They always feel that there is a twin and
we have been supporting. Yeah, it's a huge research they
(18:26):
I've heard that people feel like there's another one of them. I guess
it's like having a twin, like there's another person living a parallel life
And you're just wondering. And it's very funny because whenever my parents
wouldn't allow me to step out of country, I used to
say, maybe I'll find my twin there. It's just. Oh,
(18:49):
Yeah, maybe. Oh my goodness. You know,
the other Indian adoptee that I interviewed, Sanjay Pulver, he
has a twin, but he doesn't have any idea where they are. Doesn't know
Is there a feeling of the other person too? Does the kid feel?
But he really did have a twin. But yeah, yeah, I
(19:10):
think that there's this longing, this just deep disconnection.
And it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Well, what
can we as well, let's start with adoptive parents,
because I am one and you are so intelligent and
working with parents all the time. And from your adoptive perspective, as
a professional, what is one thing that adoptive
(19:33):
parents can just do better. Let's just assume that we tell our kids that they're
adopted. Let's just assume that they know. After
I think honesty is what they feel and
acknowledging the adoptive child's feelings. That
is something they run away from. So they do not acknowledge. And
(19:54):
this is a common trait I have observed. So one
of the reasons adoptive children also come for counseling is
because the child tells me, ma'am, my parents
do not understand what I'm trying to tell you. So there is an emotional
disconnect. And you can't blame the child. So when
we talk about trust and mistrust as
(20:16):
a psychological term, they need to understand that
you have a family where your roots are,
you know where you belong. But when your child does
not know, he or she needs a root to
hold on to. And you're not giving them that. So
being honest and helping them find themselves
(20:38):
is very important. Being there emotionally and
being there especially when they're vulnerable is the crux
of the problem. They do have a lot of breakdowns. A lot of kids who
come, they have a lot of breakdowns. But what are we doing
about it? Counseling is just one tiny little percentage of
whatever But when you have taken up a huge responsibility as
(20:59):
a parent Very very important to address the
emotional vacuum Because that can never fill,
right? It's a vacuum If
you ask me, I would describe it as a hollow room
There was a fetus which has gone away What happens to the
womb? So a lot of adopted children are stuck at
(21:20):
the womb level. That is why we say we need to work towards
the inner child healing. That's exactly why we tell that.
So the healing has not happened from birth. It's very important for
Yeah, so much to learn and to be aware of. And
I bet a lot of adoptive parents, they don't think that far ahead.
They're just like, well, I just want a child and
(21:44):
I want someone to take care of me when I'm older or whatever. You just want
to fill up your family and you just want that cute little baby. But
it's so deep and it's so painful for
the adopted person to live not knowing and
just feeling that deep hole. So adoptive parents, step
up, step up and do our best. You
(22:05):
know, I think for me, it's helped me tremendously to
do my own work on my own inner wounds that
aren't related to adoption, but my own stuff. So it doesn't like
come, come out while I'm dealing with
my own kid. It's so important. Well, everybody has
work to do. Oh my goodness. Thank you for the work you're doing for families
(22:26):
there in India. Welcome, welcome. Yeah. Is
there any way that we can be supportive of
Absolutely, if there's anything. See, they can, at this
point, anybody who requires emotional support,
please feel free to share my number, my email ID with
them. They can get in touch. We could have a couple of sessions. Reason
(22:51):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Are you able to work worldwide or are
Yeah. Oh, nice. Oh, very good. I, in fact, recently helped
a couple work towards adoption about, I think, three
months ago. They are in the U.S. right now. They're Indians,
but they didn't know how to go about. And they looked into
(23:13):
my Instagram page on adoption and they got
in touch with me. So they said, how do we
adopt? How do we go about? And So
Oh, that's great. So you help them get on the right path right
from the beginning or before the beginning, before they even adopt, you
(23:33):
I start working on the parents the minute they tell me we
I say, lovely. May I know why? And there are
hundreds of reasons they share. And many a times, the
couple is very confused. How can someone ask me,
why do you want a daughter? Because that's an
(23:56):
Oh, that probably throws some of them, and then they know that they have some more work
Yeah, it's not an easy, like, oh, let's just adopt. It's
deep. It's a lot of inner work for everyone involved.
Well, what's the best way for people to get ahold of you? Is it through the Instagram, or
They can connect with me via Instagram, my email ID,
(24:20):
Okay. All right. And why don't you just say your Instagram handle and then
All right. Yeah. The doctor D is the small letter.
It's not capital. Oh, small D-R. Dot A-S-R-A-A-L-I 25. That's
(24:43):
Okay. Excellent. Well, thank you, Dr. Asura. It's
been very nice to get to know you. I continue to marvel at
technology that allows me to talk to people around the world. It's a
It's a pleasure to be a part of your interview. It's
It's amazing. Well, I'm glad to know you and you're
doing great work there in India and around the world. And I
(25:04):
hope people look you up and I'm glad to have you walking
with me on this journey of better understanding and being
better for our adopted kids. Thank you very much. Thank you so much.
So listeners, I hope you found this episode to be enlightening and informative
about adoption in India and the way we can best
support our adoptees all around the world. And
(25:27):
after you go look up Dr. Azra's information on
Instagram, please find Unraveling Adoption online
at unravelingadoption.com. I want to highlight our
upcoming big in-person event in Southern California on
February 8th, 2025. It's called
Adoption Healing Quest. And we created it for
(25:49):
anyone impacted by adoption. Adoptees, birth or
first parents, adoptive parents, and compassionate allies.
You're all warmly invited to attend. It's going
to be involving 10 practitioners and
a film screening in the evening. And we hope that if you're anywhere near
Southern California, you will join us. Information is
(26:10):
below in the show notes or at unravelingadoption.com slash
events. Thank you for listening. Dr. Asra and I
Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space
to delve into adoption's complexities together. I am
Beth Syverson. I'm an adoptive mom of a bright and insightful
20-year-old son, Joey, who is struggling to find
his path. I'm walking beside him while working on my
own personal growth and healing. Joey and I are committed to helping
(00:22):
anyone impacted by adoption and we want to help the general public
understand adoption's complexities better too. I'm also
a certified coach helping seekers who want to move their lives forward.
For this week's episode, we have our first guest coming from India. Let's
find out what makes adoption in India unique. Dr.
Asra Ali is an adoptee whose adoption was
(00:45):
facilitated by Mother Teresa herself, one
of over 5,000 children who were placed through her missionaries of
charity. She now is a psychologist and child and
family therapist and public speaker, and she primarily serves
adoptive families in India. She will help us understand the
cultural narratives that exist in India about adoption and
(01:06):
how she's trying to improve lives for adopted people there. So
welcome to Unraveling Adoption. Dr. Asra, I'm glad you're here. Thank
you so much, Beth. Thank you. It's a pleasure being here. I
should say we have had an Indian adoptee on, but he grew
up here. So you're my first Indian adoptee
(01:26):
Well, I would love to know your adoption story. It's
pretty fascinating to me over here that Mother Teresa was
involved in your adoption or her organization. I'm not sure how closely she
was tied, but I would love to hear from you what you
Yeah. So basically my dad was into construction and
(01:47):
my parents always decided that they would like to
adopt children rather than have their own. They had
this social thing going on for a couple of years and
they were really lucky that they got an opportunity to help
out Mother Teresa's nursery and my dad
was invited and so did my mom go and no
(02:08):
familiarity happened and it was great, it was fun.
They learned a lot about my parents and somewhere
down the road, I think Mother Teresa felt that my sister
and me were, you know, these were the people that they would like
to give us into. And we fell in, I think they fell in love
with us the minute they saw us. And
(02:29):
that is how Mother Teresa actually came into picture.
So she was the one who actually initiated and
helped my adoptive parents adopt us. And
she felt we fit in perfectly into the family. So my
older sister, who's like five years older than me, she
has also been given up for adoption. through Mother Teresa. And
(02:51):
exactly after five years, I think Mother Teresa felt they really
took care of my sister. And so I think they
felt it's great that I also would be a great member of the family.
Okay, very good. And Tell me about the
culture around adoption. I hope I have that statistic right, that
she facilitated over 5,000 children being adopted through her
(03:14):
organization. Is adoption in India, like
domestic adoption, what is the cultural status of
So the cultural status comes with the very thought of
gender. So gender plays a very important role in
our culture. Of course, back in those days. Today, it is not that
bad. People would prefer having adopted
(03:35):
a male child than a female child. And that
is one of the cultural differences back in those days. Whereas
today, we see it's pretty much equal. So there is a
huge shift in culture. That's also one of the reasons why
in India we had female foeticide being one
of the biggest issues. Oh, really? Yeah. And one
(03:56):
of the main reasons a lot of people today, in
today's day and age, choose to adopt is because of
their lifestyle. They have certain biological issues
going on, the kind of food, the mental health
issues, and some actually choose for
themselves to adopt. So there is this huge shift from back
(04:17):
in those days to now. And culturally,
in the olden days, what would happen, it would be the grandparents
who would take care of the kids. It would normally be a joint
family venture. Today, I'll say, for example, there's a couple
who couldn't conceive. there would be an aunt or
somebody who would actually give the child to them because they would
(04:39):
have too many kids, hence the population. So
that came in as an adoption, as a legal thing,
because it also became an illegal concept at some point. So
people would just pick up kids, deliver them and hand it
over to someone. So that became a legal issue at some point.
Oh, OK. So you was pretty loose, just like, oh, well,
(05:01):
I guess I'll take this kid. And then eventually people created
paperwork and bureaucracies around it and made it more of
a legal thing. And that's good in your eyes
Absolutely. Because it's very unfortunate. Children
get sold to couples who can't conceive. OK,
so there was a lot of trafficking. Yes, absolutely. Human
(05:22):
trafficking is there. Especially when it comes to a gender.
So the gender is a big deal in India. So that is a cultural shift.
So boys were more valued. Absolutely. Or
are. Absolutely. And today things have changed.
Yeah. OK, things are getting better. Yeah, absolutely. OK,
good, good, good. And I know many Indian
(05:45):
adoptees that live in America that were inter-country adopted here. But
how common is adoption in India domestically? Do
Most kids stay in the country. So as
per adoption agency, they have certain rules. So
the rules are if the parents, the future adoptive parents
(06:06):
belong to India, they are citizens of the country, they
prefer having the child being here. Because the very
fact that the child may be going out, there is a trust issue
that happens. So a lot of documentation work goes in. Because
it is very unfortunate, but a lot of couples do adopt kids
from India, and they also utilize them
(06:28):
and misuse them abroad. So we have cases of abuse, we
have cases of using them like helpers, not
treating them right. Yeah, like maids. So, absolutely like
maids. So, many a times this is also an issue, but things
have obviously evolved. Hence, there is this huge
rule, they do a lot of background check, they have police verification,
(06:50):
they actually check the income of the couple. and if
they are the ones who actually keep the child or
are they taking the child, are they standing in queue for
that child and giving it away or selling the child Okay,
a lot of systems have come in an order to because there are a lot
of families who want kids But don't get an
(07:11):
opportunity So the more the filters we add
in the form or online the tougher it gets for
the couples, right? So if they're not going to look at ethnicity complexion
Gender, it's easier for them to get an adopted child. It's quicker.
Oh But if they start having filtration like say
example They want a kid who's probably British or fair, complexion-wise,
(07:36):
or they are specific about having a gender. Like,
I want a male kid or a female kid. So when you have
choices given like this, lower the chances of adoption. So
Okay. And complexion is a real thing. I know in a lot of Asian
countries that lighter, complexed people are more
(07:57):
desirable or something. Is that in India too? Unfortunately,
yeah. I know. Yeah, it's terrible, huh? Oh, gosh,
that's really tough. And tell me, before I get too far along, tell me about
your childhood. How did you do in your adoptive family? How did you do with
So the word adoption was introduced to
(08:21):
So they would keep telling me, you know, you're lucky and You
have been adopted. We are lucky to have you. So a lot of positive
strokes would keep going in. So the entire approach was
very positive. Of course, we didn't know as kids what it meant, but
as we grew, we could connect. That was one. Another factor
was the appearance, the physical appearance. We
(08:44):
started realizing that we don't look like them. So that's when
questions come in, right? And why are we not so tall?
See, for a child, it is always the physical, the look. Basically,
how do you look? How do you connect? Genetic coding. Why don't I
look like my mom? Or why don't I look like my dad? Right?
Which is very typical and very normal in any adoptive
(09:05):
child, for that matter. So, we were introduced very positively.
And my dad also being a psychologist himself,
who's also into human behavior, and my mom, who's also
done her master's in psychology, both of them knew how to
handle it. And every time we had queries, they
(09:27):
They would answer it to us. And we would also go
for these tiny camps that we had for
adoptive children. So they used to be the social gatherings. Yeah,
that still happens. Something that we
have in our country is something called the adoption plays.
So there is open awareness towards it. Of course, we do know that
(09:49):
we have counseling, but we have special counseling cases also.
Okay. You
And that's what you do now, right? Absolutely. That's your job. You work
(10:09):
right with adoptive families and kids. Absolutely. Yeah. Wow.
Well, it sounds like your parents were pretty aware and self-aware
and helpful. What do you see adoptive parents today
in your practice? What are the mistakes that they're making? What are they goofing up?
So I think a lot of parents are a little insecure because
they haven't been told how they have to tell and talk to
(10:32):
the child. They go wrong there. And it's a lot of
hush-hush even till day. They do not want to tell
their in-laws. They don't want to tell their neighbors. And in fact,
they're scared. Oh, they try and keep it secret. Absolutely. They
try and keep a secret to the child. Oh, wow. That never
works out well. So they do not reveal it to the child. And
(10:52):
the other is they try to keep shifting schools if they get to
know. Oh, so if someone finds out, they just yank the kid
out. Yeah, absolutely. And
instead of addressing the issue, they try to run
away from the issue. And they think it is best that
the child doesn't know, because I'll tell you one thing. It's
(11:13):
a deep rooted fear of every adoptive parent
that the parent will get rejected. So this is universal.
This has got nothing to do with Indian thing, but it's universal.
Sure, sure, sure. No. Yeah. And the whole, where's my
real parent? You know, the adoptive parents are like, I am your real parent. What
about me? And yeah, that insecurity and
(11:34):
God, that is so tough for adoptive parents. Ideally, they
would work on it before they even adopted, but no one does that.
And so they come to your office and they're like, what do we do?
Are kids acting out or are kids having trouble? And we
So unfortunately, a lot of parents come when
(11:55):
it is almost too late. Somebody has either told
the child or added that in the child's mind
that you look different from your parents so the child also wouldn't have realized and
when they start showing certain symptoms in school like
probably the child is showing a symptom which is a classic symptom of
learning disability that we see or emotional disturbances or
(12:17):
any behavioral problems that is exactly when
parents wake up and say hey something is wrong they forget that
it could be because somebody has hurt the
child by probably telling something very tiny like,
why aren't you as tall as your mom? Or why
aren't you as fair as your dad? Or you guys
(12:39):
don't look like a family. Are you really a family? So
when these questions are thrown and issues come,
They're visible. That is when they come. Whereas, bang
on, I have a set of parents who call me up and say,
we are planning to adopt a child. Can you kindly guide
us? Yes, we have both sets. Oh, that's nice. Can you kindly guide
(13:02):
us on how do we go about, what is
the process? So I tell them, more the filtration, less
are the chances. It's a very simple technique. More
the filtration, less are the chances. Explain that some more. Of
getting the child adopted. Yeah. Okay. So when we say, like
I mentioned earlier, more the filters, like the gender, complexion,
(13:23):
personality that you're looking for. Yeah, more filters. Okay. More
the filters, less are the chances of you. It's like a queue. You're
right in the front. You're at probably fourth
one, standing in the queue as a parent, virtual queue, and
you're waiting for your number. So there are three parents,
three couples who are waiting. You're the fourth one. So
(13:44):
the first one said, it doesn't matter to us, whatever we get, we will
take it with open arms. The second one says, I want a
girl only. So there, from the second, they go to the eighth.
So this is a cycle. And suppose the fourth one says,
no, I want a boy who's extremely fair or extremely
tall. We want to see the genetic coding. We want to see the medical
(14:06):
issues. We want to see if there's any disability. They go right at
Yeah, so that slow it down. Now, it
hurts to hear those kind of desires. It's
kind of like placing an order, right? It feels like, well,
this is what I want. And you know, when you give birth, you
don't get to pick any of that. You just get whatever
(14:29):
happens. And I feel like adoptive parents, they're
kind of like shopping. Well, it is kind of like shopping. And it's
a little distasteful, don't you think, that people are like, well, I want this
perfect child exactly the way I want it. the
child, maybe it will come just like they asked for, but maybe
their child will have a learning disability or maybe they'll
(14:50):
be gay or maybe they'll be whatever. And sheesh, I
don't know if those types of parents that put in a big wish list are going to be the kind that
are going to be open to whatever arrives, you
It does happen. It does happen. It's the reality. Many
of them say, for example, if we have, like you rightly pointed
(15:11):
out with regard to a child being gay, immediately, because
the parent is not ready to accept, he or she will say, oh,
They blame everything on adoption. And this is not a
generic thing, but it is somewhere out there, right? So
there is this wonderful thing that I would like to share with you. There was a
(15:32):
couple who had two biological girls and chose to adopt
another child. So there were some, you know, tiny misunderstandings
between children as they were growing up. So the kid turned around
and tried to complain to the mom. And at some point, the
child learned that he or she needs to fight her own battles.
So she turned around and she said, Hey, you know what? I'm so happy
(15:54):
I'm adopted. At least I was chosen, but they did not
have a choice with you. You came the way you are. You
That's right, that's right. Oh my gosh. That's a very different
thought. For sure, that's a good way to turn
it on its head. Wow. And now that you're an adult and
(16:15):
you're working with families and seeing kind of the
effects of adoption every day in your practice, when you think
about Mother Teresa now, what feelings do you
So to be very honest, I think it's a very mixed feeling. Sometimes
I feel, oh, wow, it's a great social cause. But
(16:37):
as an adopted child, sometimes I have often
wondered, not that I'm not happy or something, but I
feel if that wouldn't happen, probably I would be with my biological parents.
So I feel like you have been taken away. So
it's not a very positive feeling. Do you know what happened with
your biological parents? No, I don't. I don't. It does
(17:01):
Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You cannot get your records.
OK. There's no records. It's very close. So you don't even
know if you truly were an orphan or if your parents are
still alive. You have no idea. Absolutely. We don't know. Oh, so much. So
you just wonder. You just wonder. Gosh. And I wonder if
an organization would have come around your birth family and
(17:22):
given them the resources they need if you would have been able to stay. I mean,
It used to be a very open conversation. Again, like I mentioned, they were open. So
probably while I was growing up, I did tell them that, why don't
we go back to the orphanage and find my birth mom? I
was somehow not fascinated with the father. I don't know why. I
(17:43):
hear that a lot. But it's the mother that connects. Yeah. We don't care
about the father. always a mother. So I
don't know why it happens but it happens. It's a very natural thing I
guess. So I said I want to go and see if my
birth mom is alive. I want to go and see if I have siblings and
for some reason I am very stuck up
(18:05):
to the twin and I don't know why. And
I did read about this. I did a little research. So it
says there is a small percentage of adoptive children
while they're growing up They always feel that there is a twin and
we have been supporting. Yeah, it's a huge research they
(18:26):
I've heard that people feel like there's another one of them. I guess
it's like having a twin, like there's another person living a parallel life
And you're just wondering. And it's very funny because whenever my parents
wouldn't allow me to step out of country, I used to
say, maybe I'll find my twin there. It's just. Oh,
(18:49):
Yeah, maybe. Oh my goodness. You know,
the other Indian adoptee that I interviewed, Sanjay Pulver, he
has a twin, but he doesn't have any idea where they are. Doesn't know
Is there a feeling of the other person too? Does the kid feel?
But he really did have a twin. But yeah, yeah, I
(19:10):
think that there's this longing, this just deep disconnection.
And it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Well, what
can we as well, let's start with adoptive parents,
because I am one and you are so intelligent and
working with parents all the time. And from your adoptive perspective, as
a professional, what is one thing that adoptive
(19:33):
parents can just do better. Let's just assume that we tell our kids that they're
adopted. Let's just assume that they know. After
I think honesty is what they feel and
acknowledging the adoptive child's feelings. That
is something they run away from. So they do not acknowledge. And
(19:54):
this is a common trait I have observed. So one
of the reasons adoptive children also come for counseling is
because the child tells me, ma'am, my parents
do not understand what I'm trying to tell you. So there is an emotional
disconnect. And you can't blame the child. So when
we talk about trust and mistrust as
(20:16):
a psychological term, they need to understand that
you have a family where your roots are,
you know where you belong. But when your child does
not know, he or she needs a root to
hold on to. And you're not giving them that. So
being honest and helping them find themselves
(20:38):
is very important. Being there emotionally and
being there especially when they're vulnerable is the crux
of the problem. They do have a lot of breakdowns. A lot of kids who
come, they have a lot of breakdowns. But what are we doing
about it? Counseling is just one tiny little percentage of
whatever But when you have taken up a huge responsibility as
(20:59):
a parent Very very important to address the
emotional vacuum Because that can never fill,
right? It's a vacuum If
you ask me, I would describe it as a hollow room
There was a fetus which has gone away What happens to the
womb? So a lot of adopted children are stuck at
(21:20):
the womb level. That is why we say we need to work towards
the inner child healing. That's exactly why we tell that.
So the healing has not happened from birth. It's very important for
Yeah, so much to learn and to be aware of. And
I bet a lot of adoptive parents, they don't think that far ahead.
They're just like, well, I just want a child and
(21:44):
I want someone to take care of me when I'm older or whatever. You just want
to fill up your family and you just want that cute little baby. But
it's so deep and it's so painful for
the adopted person to live not knowing and
just feeling that deep hole. So adoptive parents, step
up, step up and do our best. You
(22:05):
know, I think for me, it's helped me tremendously to
do my own work on my own inner wounds that
aren't related to adoption, but my own stuff. So it doesn't like
come, come out while I'm dealing with
my own kid. It's so important. Well, everybody has
work to do. Oh my goodness. Thank you for the work you're doing for families
(22:26):
there in India. Welcome, welcome. Yeah. Is
there any way that we can be supportive of
Absolutely, if there's anything. See, they can, at this
point, anybody who requires emotional support,
please feel free to share my number, my email ID with
them. They can get in touch. We could have a couple of sessions. Reason
(22:51):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Are you able to work worldwide or are
Yeah. Oh, nice. Oh, very good. I, in fact, recently helped
a couple work towards adoption about, I think, three
months ago. They are in the U.S. right now. They're Indians,
but they didn't know how to go about. And they looked into
(23:13):
my Instagram page on adoption and they got
in touch with me. So they said, how do we
adopt? How do we go about? And So
Oh, that's great. So you help them get on the right path right
from the beginning or before the beginning, before they even adopt, you
(23:33):
I start working on the parents the minute they tell me we
I say, lovely. May I know why? And there are
hundreds of reasons they share. And many a times, the
couple is very confused. How can someone ask me,
why do you want a daughter? Because that's an
(23:56):
Oh, that probably throws some of them, and then they know that they have some more work
Yeah, it's not an easy, like, oh, let's just adopt. It's
deep. It's a lot of inner work for everyone involved.
Well, what's the best way for people to get ahold of you? Is it through the Instagram, or
They can connect with me via Instagram, my email ID,
(24:20):
Okay. All right. And why don't you just say your Instagram handle and then
All right. Yeah. The doctor D is the small letter.
It's not capital. Oh, small D-R. Dot A-S-R-A-A-L-I 25. That's
(24:43):
Okay. Excellent. Well, thank you, Dr. Asura. It's
been very nice to get to know you. I continue to marvel at
technology that allows me to talk to people around the world. It's a
It's a pleasure to be a part of your interview. It's
It's amazing. Well, I'm glad to know you and you're
doing great work there in India and around the world. And I
(25:04):
hope people look you up and I'm glad to have you walking
with me on this journey of better understanding and being
better for our adopted kids. Thank you very much. Thank you so much.
So listeners, I hope you found this episode to be enlightening and informative
about adoption in India and the way we can best
support our adoptees all around the world. And
(25:27):
after you go look up Dr. Azra's information on
Instagram, please find Unraveling Adoption online
at unravelingadoption.com. I want to highlight our
upcoming big in-person event in Southern California on
February 8th, 2025. It's called
Adoption Healing Quest. And we created it for
(25:49):
anyone impacted by adoption. Adoptees, birth or
first parents, adoptive parents, and compassionate allies.
You're all warmly invited to attend. It's going
to be involving 10 practitioners and
a film screening in the evening. And we hope that if you're anywhere near
Southern California, you will join us. Information is
(26:10):
below in the show notes or at unravelingadoption.com slash
events. Thank you for listening. Dr. Asra and I
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