December 2, 2024 • 25 mins
"I think now that we have this knowledge, then we can use our story to help create awareness." - Lori Evans Ermi
Read the transcript here: https://app.swellai.com/t/tp_01JDRMT4Z5RGJ6SD35WBFBT4PM
EPISODE SUMMARY:
In this episode of Unraveling Adoption, I had the pleasure of welcoming Lori Evans Ermi and her 17-year-old daughter, Kate Ermi, both of whom are adoptees and co-wrote their new book, Adoption Songs. Our conversation delved into the complexities of adoption from their unique perspectives, highlighting the emotional layers that come with their experiences.
Lori shared her journey as a domestic adoptee from the baby scoop era, detailing her late discovery of her adoption at the age of eight and the trust issues that arose from that revelation. Despite having loving adoptive parents, she faced challenges in her identity and connection to her biological roots. Kate, on the other hand, has always known she was adopted and has navigated her own path of understanding her heritage, which was further illuminated through DNA testing.
We discussed the creation of Adoption Songs, where each chapter is framed as a track, with contributors choosing songs that resonate with their adoption stories. The book aims to provide a broad perspective on adoption, acknowledging both the joys and the inherent losses that come with it. Lori emphasized the importance of music as a healing tool, and Kate shared her lifelong passion for music, which has been a source of comfort for her.
Throughout our conversation, we touched on the significance of community and shared experiences among adoptees, as well as the need for more resources and support for young adults in the adoption community. Lori and Kate's commitment to raising awareness and fostering understanding about adoption's complexities is truly inspiring.
I encourage listeners to check out their book and visit their website, adoptionsongs.org, for more information and resources. Additionally, I shared details about an upcoming event, Adoption Healing Quest, which will take place in February 2025, aimed at exploring various healing modalities within the adoption community.
Thank you for joining us in this important conversation, and I hope you find the insights shared by Lori and Kate as enlightening as I did.
===============
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===============
RESOURCES:
Lori and Kate’s information:
-
Find their website with info about their book Adoption Songs: https://www.adoptionsongs.org/
Other resource mentioned in this episode:
-
The Primal Wound by Nancy Verrier: https://www.amazon.com/Primal-Wound-Understanding-Adopted-Child/dp/0963648004
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to
delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Cyberson. I'm
an adoptive mom of a courageous and insightful 20-year-old
son, Joey. I'm walking beside him while working on my own
personal growth and healing. I'm also a certified coach aiming
to help people who are ready to move forward in their life. Joey
(00:24):
and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by adoption. And
we want to help the general public understand adoption's complexities better, too.
I was happy to meet our next two guests in real life, first at
the Untangling Our Roots Summit in Denver last spring, and more recently
when they came to Disneyland for vacation and we met here in
L.A. for dinner. Lori Evans-Ermey and her 17-year-old
(00:46):
daughter, Kate Ermey, are both adoptees, and their stories
are included in Lori's new book called Adoption Songs. Today,
we're going to talk about the complexities of adoption from their unique vantage points
and how music can play a great big role in both of their lives.
Hey, Beth, it's so good to see you again. Good to be here. Thanks
(01:10):
Yeah, of course. Hello. Very good. So
glad to have you here. And first, what I usually do whenever I
have adoptees on is I just want to hear a brief version of your story so
people can kind of figure out where you're coming from. Which one of you would like
to go first with just kind of your bio of your childhood or
(01:33):
I'm a baby scoop era domestic adoptee. I
was adopted by my adoptive parents about six weeks
from a Catholic Charities Orphanage in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Immediately moved to the Bay Area for a few years and
then ended up at the East Coast. I found out when I was eight.
I've recently discovered that that's the borderline of
(01:55):
late discovery because we're well well established
by then. And that truly was life altering for me and not
in a good way. So while I had lovely parents who
adored me, I had some big trust issues after that. So
I basically grew up very typical stories
of my era where, you know, you don't talk about
(02:16):
it. You know, we moved to a place where we had no family, no friends. So
No one knew. I didn't tell a soul until I was 16. I had
shame and all that. Then I met some people who were
adopted. I'm like, I'm adopted too. I
started to come into my own in my 20s. I really never thought about birth
(02:39):
family or biological family as I was referring to it at that point
in time until I really started adulting and
going to doctor's offices and Oh, what's your medical background?
I don't know. I'm adopted, you know, all that stuff. So then got
a little curious, but really just for medical reasons, I never
felt that yearning to connect with biological family.
(03:00):
I really never did. So until the advent of,
you know, many years later, DNA testing, then
I was like, Oh, well, maybe if it happens, and that might be cool. But
I think I was just as I'm now learning recently
out of the fog about a year and a half ago, Once I got my
hands on the primal wound, I had no idea about any of that. So
(03:21):
that put puzzle pieces together very rapidly. I
realized that I was really protecting myself. I didn't want
to get let down or be heard or abandoned again. And
so I just never really sought any connection there.
I did get matched with the birth mother. She did not
respond to my inquiries. I thanked her for the
(03:44):
bravery to do what she had to do. And then I landed in
a lovely home and had great parents. My adoptive mom
died when I was 16. So that was really rough. My
dad remarried right away, like a lot of men in that time
frame did. And that did not feel like I belonged there.
So I went off to college, started my career, moved
(04:06):
away, never really went back. But that made me very
independent. I feel very fortunate that I had a
good career and a good life. And I tried to
have children. It didn't work out. I had some infertility issues. I
was kind of okay with that. I had a stepdaughter who I
came into her life when she was three. In fact, she was the editor of our
(04:27):
book, wrote several of the chapters, beautiful writer. Lovely woman,
three children of her own, great husband. Anyway, so I was like, I'm
a parent. That's good enough. Well, the universe had a
different plan. I don't know what
So I know from the story that my mom's told me,
(04:50):
so that's kind of what I'm going to get into at the beginning. Basically,
she wasn't really sure if she should adopt or not. And
then eventually there were a lot of signs about her
adopting and her saying that she should adopt. And
she eventually adopted me, obviously. So
my birth mother handed me to her.
(05:15):
And I've always known that I was adopted. So ever since I was really
young, that was something I always knew and something that I was
Okay. Mom wasn't going to make that same mistake, right? Yeah. Not
She always let me know I was adopted. We
originally thought that I was Chilean Hispanic. And
(05:38):
eventually we did DNA tests and we found out that
my ancestors are from Chile, but I'm
actually indigenous. So they're an indigenous tribe
that's from Chile, but I'm not actually Hispanic.
Okay. Okay. I see the difference. Wow. Interesting. So
(05:59):
Maybe there's a trip to Chile in your future. Yeah. Wow.
She writes about that in her track about wanting
Oh, yeah. And have you stayed in touch with your birth
mom? You were connected right there at the beginning, and has it
(06:23):
We wanted an open adoption, but she did not. So we
Okay, whatever works, you know, for everybody. And
you just get dealt the hand you get dealt sometimes, right? A
And I knew quite a bit about her birth mom, obviously, because I
(06:45):
So many layers. Her adoptive mother, we'll
be able to probably locate her with some ease
when Kate's ready, and I know what her original birth
certificate name was. At least we have some information, because
she doesn't know anything else but that information. I find it
(07:06):
Well, that's interesting. And, you know, maybe when you turn 18 or as you mature
and have bandwidth to deal with it, you'll explore some of
those areas, but no pressure, you know, you just gotta
do what you need to do. Wow. And whose idea
was it to write the book Adoption Songs? Kate,
were you involved in the process of it? I know you wrote
(07:27):
your chapters, but like, how involved were you, Kate? Did
I mean, there was a little bit of dragging at
first, just because I'm not usually a motivated type
of person. Oh, yeah, I get it. But then once I
was dragged in, I was in. Okay. I
did create the original design of the cover
(07:50):
Nice. So cool. So that logo with the
triangle, the heart and the music? The shade and like the colors. Oh,
wow. Yeah, it's such a pretty cover. I love it.
And it's very artistic. It's really nice. Laurie, you
kind of started hearing other people's adoption stories and then
were like, hey, we should pull these together to make a book. And
(08:13):
that kind of was the seed that created this book. How has
your original idea of it and the actual outcome of
it, how do they relate? Is this how you thought it would turn out?
No, not at all. Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I
didn't know anything about the primal wound and all of that. And when
I found out about it, we were just trying to get the book over the
(08:35):
finish line because it was a five-year labor of love. Took
a couple of years off. to get a divorce and sell my house and
change my life and create a new identity. It's all good. Everybody's
friends, but I couldn't write a book when all that was going on.
But I'm so glad the way it worked out because I had a chance
to learn what I got to learn and go to Untangle
(08:57):
Your Roots and meeting more people in this community. is
thriving and huge. And five years ago, it wasn't,
it wasn't what it is now. So, you know, I'm glad the
timing worked out the way it did so that I could include what I learned in
the intro. And then really I'm an executive coach
also. So it's all about hope and healing. So the outro It
(09:19):
talks about resources and how can you move beyond that.
But the stories, what was interesting, it was truly just like, oh,
wow, these stories are really great. Oh my gosh, I'm supposed to write a book. But
you could see the thread of trauma through it.
And I never asked the question because I didn't know. It's
there. And that's, in a way, the subtlety about
(09:41):
it, I think, makes it even more powerful because I wasn't being blatant
Yeah, you weren't going out to expose, you know, the darker sides of
adoption. But each story, even the ones that kind of ended happy,
each of them have this sense of loss, which is because adoption
has inherently a sense of loss. It wouldn't be adoption if
(10:02):
there were no maternal separation, right? So you mentioned The Primal Wound.
If people aren't familiar, The Primal Wound is a book by Nancy
Verrier, and it's kind of a concept of adoption carrying
with it a primal wound that most adoptees carry
consciously, some unconsciously perhaps, but that it's
non-verbal, it's pre-verbal, it happens when you're a baby most
(10:24):
of the time. And so it's really tough and I
think you're very brave to kind of pivot a little bit and
add those parts at the beginning and the resources at the end and
create this kind of broad swath of
Yeah. And I really tried to get the perspective of a birth mother in
(10:46):
this version, and I wasn't able to get anyone comfortable
enough to do it. But since then, and we are already planning
adoption songs too, we'll much more be
Donor conceived. I mean, that's just such a
broad community now. And we all sort of have that
(11:09):
same need for identity and connection and the
mainstream doesn't get it. And I understand why.
I hope Kate's not either. She
But we feel an opportunity and privilege to help others
increase their awareness of what all of this is without trying
(11:30):
to over-sensationalize it because no one
is going to listen to us if we're pounding our fists. But if I can help
in some way, and then you mentioned about the music
and the title, music is very healing. Music
for many of us, you hear a song and you remember exactly where
you were like the first time you heard that song or really just
(11:52):
as a narrative of a particular era of your life. That's why we had asked the
people that were contributing to choose a song that resonates
with their journey, and that would be the title of their track. And
Kate's very musical. She's got the piano in the background there. Yes,
I know. I love that. She's an incredible singer. She doesn't like it when I brag about
Yes. So lots of music interest. So your books, adoption
(12:15):
songs, each of the chapters are tracks instead of chapters in each contributor
chose a song that kind of represents their adoption story or
that speaks to their adoption story. And you have a playlist on Spotify.
Ah, nice. That includes all of those tracks that each of these adoptees chose
to represent their life. Wow. Kate, tell me about your music life.
(12:38):
I've been musical for my whole life. I've
been singing since I could talk,
probably. I started playing
piano when I was seven. I
also have taken violin lessons, guitar
lessons, drum lessons. I have like a
(13:06):
I was in a previous life. I
was a singer, very involved in musical theater, and I was a flautist. I
was a wannabe piano player, but I never
was able to get those lessons. So I know everybody says it's not too late, but
I'd love when Kate plays.
(13:26):
We would sit in the car, we would sing. What was some of our songs, Kate,
I think I love you. Point me in the direction of Albuquerque.
Oh, we'd make up lyrics and we'd just laugh and
(13:49):
laugh. Long road trips. Our family is from
very many different places, so we're always in the car. There's always music
It sounds like you definitely had music in your nurture side, Kate,
but I wonder if maybe as you discover more about your biological family,
I wonder if there's a long history of musicians in there too. That'd
(14:09):
be interesting to find out. Yeah, maybe. Wow.
And I imagine this waking up and reading The Primal
Wound, you went to Untangling Our Roots. How has that all
been for you guys? It seems like you started off this book like, yay, adoption.
And now you're like, ooh, adoption. Tell
me about that shift for both of you. Kate, would you like to answer
(14:31):
first? Yeah. I know you were like the youngest one at Untangling Our Roots in
Denver. How was that for you? How are you doing? How
It was really interesting to hear all these different people's
stories and seeing so many different views
of adoption because it's not just like, oh, there's the adopted
(14:53):
and that's it. Because then there's so many other
perspectives of adoption that all tie
it together that not a lot of people think about.
So that was really interesting to see so many perspectives from
people. And it's also really weird how people just
feel the same. That was something that was really interesting to
(15:15):
see was how everyone was like, yep, yep. Yep.
Like they all just agree. A lot of nodding heads. Yeah. About all
these different things that was like you always are feeling
it, but you never know if someone else feels the same way.
And then when all these people were together, they all felt the
same way about the same things, about the same feelings and
(15:36):
stuff like that. So that was really interesting to hear as
I remember going around. I think it was Brian going around with a microphone around
this big room. And people were saying how it was about feeling
dismissed, I believe, about their feelings about adoption. And
just people just kept saying, yes, people told me
I was crazy or yes, people said, oh, you should be lucky. And just
(15:58):
everyone in the room was just nodding their heads. And people like me, adoptive parents
are just like, oh, oh, this is tough, tough,
Yeah, it was really intense. It was intense. And, you
know, coming at it from two sides of the triad,
because I didn't know about all this when I adopted Kate.
(16:20):
And I don't know how to even say this well, but Kate's
birth mom was not really capable of caring for her. So she
was not going to ever be raised by her birth
mother. She had some issues. So I don't know if that makes it
right or better or whatever, but certainly I adore her
and she knows it and we've got a really amazing connection. But
(16:42):
then I was really concerned once I learned about how
adoptees were feeling and they weren't all as lucky as I was with great
adoptive parents. I was a little concerned. In fact, I reached out
to you, Beth and Lori Holden, and Lori Gerald, and just
said, Hey, am I doing the wrong thing, bringing Kate to this environment
where I don't want her like, like, Oh my gosh, your mother a job yet.
(17:03):
And after everything she knows, and I did not find that energy
at all at the event, but I wanted to make sure I
wasn't putting Kate in a position where. you know, she
wasn't ready for, I wasn't ready for. But, you know,
I think now that we have this knowledge, then we can use
our story to help create awareness, right? I
(17:26):
I think your family story is very powerful because you're
able to say, yeah, we love each other. We're so happy
that the two of us are together. And you both have
separation trauma from your birth parents. Laura, you have trauma
of finding out you were adopted at eight, late discovery, adoptee.
But you loved your adoptive parents dearly, right? And
(17:49):
aren't complaining about your adoptive parents. So we're able to
hold the two things at once, which is complex. It's
more complex than our culture likes to have things, right? They're
like, Oh, it has to be one or the other, but it can be both. It is both.
Well, that's a paradox. And
not everyone can handle paradox, right? And I respect that
(18:10):
too. I think too, as influencers, which we
all are, Beth and many others, we need to meet our
audience where they are, right? And we can inform, but I have to
know when to put the brakes on or when I can accelerate a
little bit or push in as I'm learning. And because I'm
so curious by nature anyway, and I'm learning every day by
(18:31):
being involved in your work and your book. But
I see the momentum is rapidly
increasing in a good way. All of us just out
there planting our seeds, that law of multiplicity. I
think it's going to be. And then people like Kate being able to use
(18:52):
Absolutely. I love when our young people
come out, like my son is 20 and Kate
is 17 and your voice is so important
and we want to hear from you and I wish there were more
groups or programs for your age people.
I know my son's gone to a couple of adoptee-only things and
(19:14):
they're like, all people my age. And he's like, Mom, I can't go. They're all
old. But I know there's got to be ways
for us to serve you young adults better than teens. But
Kate, what have you found so far to be supportive or
Well, I mean, obviously, one of my main things that
like, calms me down always is music. So obviously,
(19:40):
I have a couple songs that I know will always calm
me down. And that has helped me a lot. That's
great. And then just like support from my family and friends, knowing
That's nice. And you know, with your mom having done her
work through the book and through all of this research she's
(20:01):
done, that if you have various feelings about
being adopted or about your birthday coming up or about reunion
someday, that she will be able to hold all of whatever
feelings you're having, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's
really important as adoptive parents. I always encourage adoptive parents to
do the work we need to do to be able to sit with our kids' pain. It's
(20:24):
hard. As Lori was saying, it's like, gulp. What did
I do? And oh, man, I took my kid from a
whole different country and just like, oh, no.
But, you know, we can't go back and change it.
Not that we even would want to. really, you know, Kate, I don't
know if you would have, you know, it wouldn't have been safe for you to be raised by
(20:45):
your birth mother, right? And I don't know what my son's situation is, but we
literally can't go back and change it. So what can we do from
today going forward? How can we be more open, more
understanding, more compassionate, more able to hold
all of these complexities together? And that is what you
are doing. And your book is so helpful to everyone. And
(21:07):
I think your book is great because it is not super
duper intense, like a little scary. It's more
mainstream, which is great. We need books like yours in the mainstream where
people can go, oh, Oh, adoption isn't all just perfect
and happy, happy, happy. But it's it doesn't like slap us in
the face with it. I think your book has got a really great niche right
(21:29):
I'm glad to hear you say that, because that's exactly where we felt that
was an opportunity to make an impact. Right. And
yes, I have a career and a life. So this is all just
out of a passion for wanting to make things
different. And just meeting, you know, you and others has been Like,
(21:50):
Yeah, it really is. I think that all of
the zooming that we had to do from COVID, it really coalesced
a lot of different things. But I think this adoption community is
is on a roll and you are on it and you're leading
one of those trains. And I'm really grateful to know you guys. It's
nice to have a mother daughter team and so much adoption
(22:12):
in both of your lives, you know, generationally. And
And I should ask, what is the best way to find
you or your book? Do you have a website or just go
Adoptionsongs.org has all
(22:33):
the connections to the book, the playlist, lots
of vignettes from people that are in the book and why they chose their song.
And so there's a lot of information and resources in there and also
events that'll be coming up. We've got an event coming up,
a couple of them, so hopefully we'll see some people out there. Great.
And we're looking for book clubs. I'm happy to pop on if somebody
(22:55):
wants a Q&A kind of thing. I've got some merch I'd love
to pop in the mail, our little playlist bookmarks. Yes,
I love those. If you want to do a book club, you know, we can support that.
Yeah, great. That's very nice of you. Thank you, Lori. And yeah, just
find their website, adoptionsongs.org. I will
put that in the show notes in case you're driving or running right now and can't write
(23:15):
it down. All right, very good. We'll look them up and
let's support this work by this amazing adoptee duo.
Thank you so much for being here. So listeners, after you
go check out Laurie and Kate's book and their website, go
find unravelingadoption.com I have all sorts of resources on
there and information about our book, Adoption and Suicidality in
(23:37):
Events, and I wanted to just highlight an event coming
up in a couple of months. It's February 8th, 2025. It's
called Adoption Healing Quest, and
it will be an in-person event in Seal Beach, California, which
is near Long Beach in Southern California. I am really looking
forward to this event and I hope lots of you will come out either who
(24:00):
live near LA or who want to come travel to LA
in February, not a bad time of year to get out of worse
weather situations. So it's going to involve about
10 practitioners from our Healing the Adoption Constellation database
and we all are going to provide lots of different opportunities for
exploring different healing modalities. And on
(24:22):
the evening of February 8th, we'll be doing a hybrid screening
of Brian Stanton's film at Ghost Kingdom. So
there will be information on my website soon. Ticketing
will be any day now and I hope that you will check it out
or at least mark your calendar, reserve February 8th
for Adoption Healing Quest. Thank you all for
(24:44):
listening. We really are very honored that you took
the time to listen to this episode. Please share it with anyone you know that
might benefit from hearing from Lori and Kate and hearing
about their book. And we just really appreciate you all. And
Lori, Kate, and I want you all to stay safe.
Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to
delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Cyberson. I'm
an adoptive mom of a courageous and insightful 20-year-old
son, Joey. I'm walking beside him while working on my own
personal growth and healing. I'm also a certified coach aiming
to help people who are ready to move forward in their life. Joey
(00:24):
and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by adoption. And
we want to help the general public understand adoption's complexities better, too.
I was happy to meet our next two guests in real life, first at
the Untangling Our Roots Summit in Denver last spring, and more recently
when they came to Disneyland for vacation and we met here in
L.A. for dinner. Lori Evans-Ermey and her 17-year-old
(00:46):
daughter, Kate Ermey, are both adoptees, and their stories
are included in Lori's new book called Adoption Songs. Today,
we're going to talk about the complexities of adoption from their unique vantage points
and how music can play a great big role in both of their lives.
Hey, Beth, it's so good to see you again. Good to be here. Thanks
(01:10):
Yeah, of course. Hello. Very good. So
glad to have you here. And first, what I usually do whenever I
have adoptees on is I just want to hear a brief version of your story so
people can kind of figure out where you're coming from. Which one of you would like
to go first with just kind of your bio of your childhood or
(01:33):
I'm a baby scoop era domestic adoptee. I
was adopted by my adoptive parents about six weeks
from a Catholic Charities Orphanage in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Immediately moved to the Bay Area for a few years and
then ended up at the East Coast. I found out when I was eight.
I've recently discovered that that's the borderline of
(01:55):
late discovery because we're well well established
by then. And that truly was life altering for me and not
in a good way. So while I had lovely parents who
adored me, I had some big trust issues after that. So
I basically grew up very typical stories
of my era where, you know, you don't talk about
(02:16):
it. You know, we moved to a place where we had no family, no friends. So
No one knew. I didn't tell a soul until I was 16. I had
shame and all that. Then I met some people who were
adopted. I'm like, I'm adopted too. I
started to come into my own in my 20s. I really never thought about birth
(02:39):
family or biological family as I was referring to it at that point
in time until I really started adulting and
going to doctor's offices and Oh, what's your medical background?
I don't know. I'm adopted, you know, all that stuff. So then got
a little curious, but really just for medical reasons, I never
felt that yearning to connect with biological family.
(03:00):
I really never did. So until the advent of,
you know, many years later, DNA testing, then
I was like, Oh, well, maybe if it happens, and that might be cool. But
I think I was just as I'm now learning recently
out of the fog about a year and a half ago, Once I got my
hands on the primal wound, I had no idea about any of that. So
(03:21):
that put puzzle pieces together very rapidly. I
realized that I was really protecting myself. I didn't want
to get let down or be heard or abandoned again. And
so I just never really sought any connection there.
I did get matched with the birth mother. She did not
respond to my inquiries. I thanked her for the
(03:44):
bravery to do what she had to do. And then I landed in
a lovely home and had great parents. My adoptive mom
died when I was 16. So that was really rough. My
dad remarried right away, like a lot of men in that time
frame did. And that did not feel like I belonged there.
So I went off to college, started my career, moved
(04:06):
away, never really went back. But that made me very
independent. I feel very fortunate that I had a
good career and a good life. And I tried to
have children. It didn't work out. I had some infertility issues. I
was kind of okay with that. I had a stepdaughter who I
came into her life when she was three. In fact, she was the editor of our
(04:27):
book, wrote several of the chapters, beautiful writer. Lovely woman,
three children of her own, great husband. Anyway, so I was like, I'm
a parent. That's good enough. Well, the universe had a
different plan. I don't know what
So I know from the story that my mom's told me,
(04:50):
so that's kind of what I'm going to get into at the beginning. Basically,
she wasn't really sure if she should adopt or not. And
then eventually there were a lot of signs about her
adopting and her saying that she should adopt. And
she eventually adopted me, obviously. So
my birth mother handed me to her.
(05:15):
And I've always known that I was adopted. So ever since I was really
young, that was something I always knew and something that I was
Okay. Mom wasn't going to make that same mistake, right? Yeah. Not
She always let me know I was adopted. We
originally thought that I was Chilean Hispanic. And
(05:38):
eventually we did DNA tests and we found out that
my ancestors are from Chile, but I'm
actually indigenous. So they're an indigenous tribe
that's from Chile, but I'm not actually Hispanic.
Okay. Okay. I see the difference. Wow. Interesting. So
(05:59):
Maybe there's a trip to Chile in your future. Yeah. Wow.
She writes about that in her track about wanting
Oh, yeah. And have you stayed in touch with your birth
mom? You were connected right there at the beginning, and has it
(06:23):
We wanted an open adoption, but she did not. So we
Okay, whatever works, you know, for everybody. And
you just get dealt the hand you get dealt sometimes, right? A
And I knew quite a bit about her birth mom, obviously, because I
(06:45):
So many layers. Her adoptive mother, we'll
be able to probably locate her with some ease
when Kate's ready, and I know what her original birth
certificate name was. At least we have some information, because
she doesn't know anything else but that information. I find it
(07:06):
Well, that's interesting. And, you know, maybe when you turn 18 or as you mature
and have bandwidth to deal with it, you'll explore some of
those areas, but no pressure, you know, you just gotta
do what you need to do. Wow. And whose idea
was it to write the book Adoption Songs? Kate,
were you involved in the process of it? I know you wrote
(07:27):
your chapters, but like, how involved were you, Kate? Did
I mean, there was a little bit of dragging at
first, just because I'm not usually a motivated type
of person. Oh, yeah, I get it. But then once I
was dragged in, I was in. Okay. I
did create the original design of the cover
(07:50):
Nice. So cool. So that logo with the
triangle, the heart and the music? The shade and like the colors. Oh,
wow. Yeah, it's such a pretty cover. I love it.
And it's very artistic. It's really nice. Laurie, you
kind of started hearing other people's adoption stories and then
were like, hey, we should pull these together to make a book. And
(08:13):
that kind of was the seed that created this book. How has
your original idea of it and the actual outcome of
it, how do they relate? Is this how you thought it would turn out?
No, not at all. Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I
didn't know anything about the primal wound and all of that. And when
I found out about it, we were just trying to get the book over the
(08:35):
finish line because it was a five-year labor of love. Took
a couple of years off. to get a divorce and sell my house and
change my life and create a new identity. It's all good. Everybody's
friends, but I couldn't write a book when all that was going on.
But I'm so glad the way it worked out because I had a chance
to learn what I got to learn and go to Untangle
(08:57):
Your Roots and meeting more people in this community. is
thriving and huge. And five years ago, it wasn't,
it wasn't what it is now. So, you know, I'm glad the
timing worked out the way it did so that I could include what I learned in
the intro. And then really I'm an executive coach
also. So it's all about hope and healing. So the outro It
(09:19):
talks about resources and how can you move beyond that.
But the stories, what was interesting, it was truly just like, oh,
wow, these stories are really great. Oh my gosh, I'm supposed to write a book. But
you could see the thread of trauma through it.
And I never asked the question because I didn't know. It's
there. And that's, in a way, the subtlety about
(09:41):
it, I think, makes it even more powerful because I wasn't being blatant
Yeah, you weren't going out to expose, you know, the darker sides of
adoption. But each story, even the ones that kind of ended happy,
each of them have this sense of loss, which is because adoption
has inherently a sense of loss. It wouldn't be adoption if
(10:02):
there were no maternal separation, right? So you mentioned The Primal Wound.
If people aren't familiar, The Primal Wound is a book by Nancy
Verrier, and it's kind of a concept of adoption carrying
with it a primal wound that most adoptees carry
consciously, some unconsciously perhaps, but that it's
non-verbal, it's pre-verbal, it happens when you're a baby most
(10:24):
of the time. And so it's really tough and I
think you're very brave to kind of pivot a little bit and
add those parts at the beginning and the resources at the end and
create this kind of broad swath of
Yeah. And I really tried to get the perspective of a birth mother in
(10:46):
this version, and I wasn't able to get anyone comfortable
enough to do it. But since then, and we are already planning
adoption songs too, we'll much more be
Donor conceived. I mean, that's just such a
broad community now. And we all sort of have that
(11:09):
same need for identity and connection and the
mainstream doesn't get it. And I understand why.
I hope Kate's not either. She
But we feel an opportunity and privilege to help others
increase their awareness of what all of this is without trying
(11:30):
to over-sensationalize it because no one
is going to listen to us if we're pounding our fists. But if I can help
in some way, and then you mentioned about the music
and the title, music is very healing. Music
for many of us, you hear a song and you remember exactly where
you were like the first time you heard that song or really just
(11:52):
as a narrative of a particular era of your life. That's why we had asked the
people that were contributing to choose a song that resonates
with their journey, and that would be the title of their track. And
Kate's very musical. She's got the piano in the background there. Yes,
I know. I love that. She's an incredible singer. She doesn't like it when I brag about
Yes. So lots of music interest. So your books, adoption
(12:15):
songs, each of the chapters are tracks instead of chapters in each contributor
chose a song that kind of represents their adoption story or
that speaks to their adoption story. And you have a playlist on Spotify.
Ah, nice. That includes all of those tracks that each of these adoptees chose
to represent their life. Wow. Kate, tell me about your music life.
(12:38):
I've been musical for my whole life. I've
been singing since I could talk,
probably. I started playing
piano when I was seven. I
also have taken violin lessons, guitar
lessons, drum lessons. I have like a
(13:06):
I was in a previous life. I
was a singer, very involved in musical theater, and I was a flautist. I
was a wannabe piano player, but I never
was able to get those lessons. So I know everybody says it's not too late, but
I'd love when Kate plays.
(13:26):
We would sit in the car, we would sing. What was some of our songs, Kate,
I think I love you. Point me in the direction of Albuquerque.
Oh, we'd make up lyrics and we'd just laugh and
(13:49):
laugh. Long road trips. Our family is from
very many different places, so we're always in the car. There's always music
It sounds like you definitely had music in your nurture side, Kate,
but I wonder if maybe as you discover more about your biological family,
I wonder if there's a long history of musicians in there too. That'd
(14:09):
be interesting to find out. Yeah, maybe. Wow.
And I imagine this waking up and reading The Primal
Wound, you went to Untangling Our Roots. How has that all
been for you guys? It seems like you started off this book like, yay, adoption.
And now you're like, ooh, adoption. Tell
me about that shift for both of you. Kate, would you like to answer
(14:31):
first? Yeah. I know you were like the youngest one at Untangling Our Roots in
Denver. How was that for you? How are you doing? How
It was really interesting to hear all these different people's
stories and seeing so many different views
of adoption because it's not just like, oh, there's the adopted
(14:53):
and that's it. Because then there's so many other
perspectives of adoption that all tie
it together that not a lot of people think about.
So that was really interesting to see so many perspectives from
people. And it's also really weird how people just
feel the same. That was something that was really interesting to
(15:15):
see was how everyone was like, yep, yep. Yep.
Like they all just agree. A lot of nodding heads. Yeah. About all
these different things that was like you always are feeling
it, but you never know if someone else feels the same way.
And then when all these people were together, they all felt the
same way about the same things, about the same feelings and
(15:36):
stuff like that. So that was really interesting to hear as
I remember going around. I think it was Brian going around with a microphone around
this big room. And people were saying how it was about feeling
dismissed, I believe, about their feelings about adoption. And
just people just kept saying, yes, people told me
I was crazy or yes, people said, oh, you should be lucky. And just
(15:58):
everyone in the room was just nodding their heads. And people like me, adoptive parents
are just like, oh, oh, this is tough, tough,
Yeah, it was really intense. It was intense. And, you
know, coming at it from two sides of the triad,
because I didn't know about all this when I adopted Kate.
(16:20):
And I don't know how to even say this well, but Kate's
birth mom was not really capable of caring for her. So she
was not going to ever be raised by her birth
mother. She had some issues. So I don't know if that makes it
right or better or whatever, but certainly I adore her
and she knows it and we've got a really amazing connection. But
(16:42):
then I was really concerned once I learned about how
adoptees were feeling and they weren't all as lucky as I was with great
adoptive parents. I was a little concerned. In fact, I reached out
to you, Beth and Lori Holden, and Lori Gerald, and just
said, Hey, am I doing the wrong thing, bringing Kate to this environment
where I don't want her like, like, Oh my gosh, your mother a job yet.
(17:03):
And after everything she knows, and I did not find that energy
at all at the event, but I wanted to make sure I
wasn't putting Kate in a position where. you know, she
wasn't ready for, I wasn't ready for. But, you know,
I think now that we have this knowledge, then we can use
our story to help create awareness, right? I
(17:26):
I think your family story is very powerful because you're
able to say, yeah, we love each other. We're so happy
that the two of us are together. And you both have
separation trauma from your birth parents. Laura, you have trauma
of finding out you were adopted at eight, late discovery, adoptee.
But you loved your adoptive parents dearly, right? And
(17:49):
aren't complaining about your adoptive parents. So we're able to
hold the two things at once, which is complex. It's
more complex than our culture likes to have things, right? They're
like, Oh, it has to be one or the other, but it can be both. It is both.
Well, that's a paradox. And
not everyone can handle paradox, right? And I respect that
(18:10):
too. I think too, as influencers, which we
all are, Beth and many others, we need to meet our
audience where they are, right? And we can inform, but I have to
know when to put the brakes on or when I can accelerate a
little bit or push in as I'm learning. And because I'm
so curious by nature anyway, and I'm learning every day by
(18:31):
being involved in your work and your book. But
I see the momentum is rapidly
increasing in a good way. All of us just out
there planting our seeds, that law of multiplicity. I
think it's going to be. And then people like Kate being able to use
(18:52):
Absolutely. I love when our young people
come out, like my son is 20 and Kate
is 17 and your voice is so important
and we want to hear from you and I wish there were more
groups or programs for your age people.
I know my son's gone to a couple of adoptee-only things and
(19:14):
they're like, all people my age. And he's like, Mom, I can't go. They're all
old. But I know there's got to be ways
for us to serve you young adults better than teens. But
Kate, what have you found so far to be supportive or
Well, I mean, obviously, one of my main things that
like, calms me down always is music. So obviously,
(19:40):
I have a couple songs that I know will always calm
me down. And that has helped me a lot. That's
great. And then just like support from my family and friends, knowing
That's nice. And you know, with your mom having done her
work through the book and through all of this research she's
(20:01):
done, that if you have various feelings about
being adopted or about your birthday coming up or about reunion
someday, that she will be able to hold all of whatever
feelings you're having, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's
really important as adoptive parents. I always encourage adoptive parents to
do the work we need to do to be able to sit with our kids' pain. It's
(20:24):
hard. As Lori was saying, it's like, gulp. What did
I do? And oh, man, I took my kid from a
whole different country and just like, oh, no.
But, you know, we can't go back and change it.
Not that we even would want to. really, you know, Kate, I don't
know if you would have, you know, it wouldn't have been safe for you to be raised by
(20:45):
your birth mother, right? And I don't know what my son's situation is, but we
literally can't go back and change it. So what can we do from
today going forward? How can we be more open, more
understanding, more compassionate, more able to hold
all of these complexities together? And that is what you
are doing. And your book is so helpful to everyone. And
(21:07):
I think your book is great because it is not super
duper intense, like a little scary. It's more
mainstream, which is great. We need books like yours in the mainstream where
people can go, oh, Oh, adoption isn't all just perfect
and happy, happy, happy. But it's it doesn't like slap us in
the face with it. I think your book has got a really great niche right
(21:29):
I'm glad to hear you say that, because that's exactly where we felt that
was an opportunity to make an impact. Right. And
yes, I have a career and a life. So this is all just
out of a passion for wanting to make things
different. And just meeting, you know, you and others has been Like,
(21:50):
Yeah, it really is. I think that all of
the zooming that we had to do from COVID, it really coalesced
a lot of different things. But I think this adoption community is
is on a roll and you are on it and you're leading
one of those trains. And I'm really grateful to know you guys. It's
nice to have a mother daughter team and so much adoption
(22:12):
in both of your lives, you know, generationally. And
And I should ask, what is the best way to find
you or your book? Do you have a website or just go
Adoptionsongs.org has all
(22:33):
the connections to the book, the playlist, lots
of vignettes from people that are in the book and why they chose their song.
And so there's a lot of information and resources in there and also
events that'll be coming up. We've got an event coming up,
a couple of them, so hopefully we'll see some people out there. Great.
And we're looking for book clubs. I'm happy to pop on if somebody
(22:55):
wants a Q&A kind of thing. I've got some merch I'd love
to pop in the mail, our little playlist bookmarks. Yes,
I love those. If you want to do a book club, you know, we can support that.
Yeah, great. That's very nice of you. Thank you, Lori. And yeah, just
find their website, adoptionsongs.org. I will
put that in the show notes in case you're driving or running right now and can't write
(23:15):
it down. All right, very good. We'll look them up and
let's support this work by this amazing adoptee duo.
Thank you so much for being here. So listeners, after you
go check out Laurie and Kate's book and their website, go
find unravelingadoption.com I have all sorts of resources on
there and information about our book, Adoption and Suicidality in
(23:37):
Events, and I wanted to just highlight an event coming
up in a couple of months. It's February 8th, 2025. It's
called Adoption Healing Quest, and
it will be an in-person event in Seal Beach, California, which
is near Long Beach in Southern California. I am really looking
forward to this event and I hope lots of you will come out either who
(24:00):
live near LA or who want to come travel to LA
in February, not a bad time of year to get out of worse
weather situations. So it's going to involve about
10 practitioners from our Healing the Adoption Constellation database
and we all are going to provide lots of different opportunities for
exploring different healing modalities. And on
(24:22):
the evening of February 8th, we'll be doing a hybrid screening
of Brian Stanton's film at Ghost Kingdom. So
there will be information on my website soon. Ticketing
will be any day now and I hope that you will check it out
or at least mark your calendar, reserve February 8th
for Adoption Healing Quest. Thank you all for
(24:44):
listening. We really are very honored that you took
the time to listen to this episode. Please share it with anyone you know that
might benefit from hearing from Lori and Kate and hearing
about their book. And we just really appreciate you all. And
Lori, Kate, and I want you all to stay safe.
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