February 3, 2025 • 31 mins
"I think she had a deep ambivalence about me, knowing me, having a relationship with me from the very beginning." -- Susan Kiyo Ito
Read the transcript of this episode here: https://app.swellai.com/t/tp_01JJYRPQ0EJEGKW4GNXFMCA8CV
EPISODE SUMMARY:
In this episode of Unraveling Adoption, I had the pleasure of speaking with Susan Kiyo Ito, a writing professor and author of the memoir I Would Meet You Anywhere. Susan's book, a culmination of 30 years of work, explores her journey as a biracial adoptee—half Japanese and half white—who was adopted at three and a half months old by Japanese American parents.
We delved into Susan's origin story, her relationship with her adoptive parents, and her deep desire to connect with her birth mother, Yumi. Susan described Yumi as a charismatic yet ambivalent figure, reflecting on the complexities of their relationship and the cultural stigma surrounding adoption in Japanese society.
Throughout our conversation, we discussed the emotional weight of adoption, the challenges of identity, and the universal longing for connection that many adoptees experience. Susan shared how writing her memoir was a healing process, allowing her to articulate her experiences and put down the burdens she had carried for so long.
We also touched on the misconceptions surrounding adoption, particularly the notion of "luck," and how important it is for adoptive parents to support their children in their search for identity and connection without imposing their own feelings onto them.
As we wrapped up, Susan encouraged listeners to embrace their stories and consider the power of sharing their experiences. Her insights and reflections provide a valuable perspective on the complexities of adoption, making this episode a must-listen for anyone impacted by adoption or interested in understanding its nuances.
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RESOURCES:
Susan’s information:
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Explore Susan’s website and purchase her memoir: https://www.thesusanito.com/
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Find her on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/susan.ito
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Unraveling Adoption is produced and hosted by Beth Syverson
Music written and performed by Joseph Nakao
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to
delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Syverson. I'm
an adoptive mom of a vibrant and insightful 20-year-old son,
Joey. I'm walking beside him while working on my own personal
growth and healing. Joey and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by
adoption, and we want to help the general public understand adoption's complexities
(00:24):
better, too. I'm also a certified coach helping seekers
who want to move their lives forward. Well, listeners, I
always advocate for reading adoptee memoirs and
birth parent memoirs, too. I think it's one of the best ways to
understand adoption's complexities. Today's guest, Susan
Kiyo Ito, is a writing professor at Mills College in San
(00:46):
Francisco, and her memoir, I Would Meet You Anywhere,
was a 30-year project in the making. But like a fine
wine, her writing was exquisite and brought me on a roller coaster
ride right along with her. It brought me literally to
tears several times, which is very unusual for me. Her
book has achieved high honors in the literary world. It was
(01:07):
a finalist for the 2024 William Soroyan International Prize
for Writing in Nonfiction. It was a finalist for
the 2023 National Book Critics Circle Award for Autobiography. And
it won the Library Journal's Best Memoir for
2023. Not too shabby, really amazing. And
(01:27):
because her writing is so damn good, Susan's memoir is reaching
a wide audience well beyond the adoption community,
helping others understand adoption's complexities better. So
Yeah, and thank you very much for sharing the gift of your writing. Those
(01:48):
30 years were well spent. I'm sure for part of them, you're like, God, when
is this book gonna get finished? But I think it finished it exactly when it
needed to be and is hitting the perfect note today. I
Yeah, I'm particularly in tune with your story because
my son was adopted from Japan. So we have the
Japanese thing and my ex-husband, his adoptive dad
(02:11):
is Japanese American. And, but my son is a
hundred percent Japanese and you're half white and
half Japanese, but raised by Japanese parents. So it's like, we're
just like the inverse of each other flipped around. And
I just want to sit at your feet and learn. So I'm so
grateful that you're here. Why don't we just start with you just sharing
(02:33):
a little bit about your origin story so people can understand
Sure. Well, to start out with, I was adopted at
three and a half months of age. I am biracial,
half white, half Japanese, and my adoptive
parents are second generation Japanese American. I'm third generation.
(02:53):
And they had been waiting quite a long time. They were
on a waiting list at an adoption agency for over 10 years
before the agency contacted them and said,
well, we have a half Japanese baby. And they jumped it,
jumped a chance. And I think back then
in the day, it was 1959. Matching was very
(03:14):
much of a thing. And I'm not really sure if it
was a mutual decision of theirs, if they would have accepted
a baby of another race, or if it
just wasn't acceptable to give a baby of another race. It's
not clear. But they saw friends
of theirs, people that they knew who were trying to adopt, who were
(03:37):
able to adopt within a year or two. And here they are
going on over a decade. And I know that
it was really rough for them. So they were very happy when
I showed up. I bet. Yeah, so that
was our experience that they were very happy to have
me. You know, but I was always aware that I was adopted. I
was aware that I wasn't a complete match and
(04:00):
that I looked different from them. And they were
very matter of fact about it. You know, they didn't try to
pretend otherwise, but they
also, I would say, raised me to
be very connected to Japanese heritage.
I loved those parts of your book, you know, the church you went to kind
(04:22):
of far away that was a Japanese church and all the holidays and
festivities and food, all of that is so
impactful. And I thought that was all wonderful. And
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the
book, you know, the book talks about your upbringing for
(04:44):
sure, but it kind of centers around, the title even talks about
this desire to be around in the orbit of your birth
mother, Yumi. How would you describe your
I would describe her as very charismatic,
(05:04):
very social, charismatic,
cheerful person, although very, very private
at the same time. I think she had a deep ambivalence about
me, knowing me, having a relationship with me
from the very beginning. And I think it was a real challenge
(05:25):
for her because it was such a deeply held
secret for her. It was it was difficult. And
And you could probably very likely identify this better than
me. But I believe in the Japanese culture that kind of
let's just not talk about it. Let's just not air
(05:47):
our dirty laundry. That kind of thing is very prominent in Japanese Asian culture
probably overall. But I wonder that was probably a
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I do know she
told me that her parents never knew about me. Her
There's an organization here in LA, in Little Tokyo, that is doing a lot of great
(06:09):
work around mental health and kind of reducing that
stigma in the Japanese culture, which I
know from just watching my ex-husband's family and just being
around Japanese people. is it is not
a small thing. It is a small thing. It's a cultural
stigma that that we have to reckon with, especially people
(06:30):
like you that are kind of stuck in the middle and had no choice in it.
And, you know, your life is
not a stigma, but I'm sure it felt like
it was right. Like you're an actual person. You're not something
to be hidden or to be ashamed of. Absolutely not.
But I'm sure that that's how it felt. And that must have been very painful. Yeah,
(06:54):
yeah. Well, and your title of the book, would you like to
talk about the title and the links that you would go to
Yeah, the title actually comes from
a little passage from the day that I met
her. I was a college student and, you
know, I was just being silly in my head, kind of doing this little Dr.
(07:17):
Seuss thing. I would meet you in a car. I would meet you in a jar. You
know, I would meet you anywhere. But it really did speak
to just this incredible sense of urgency
and intensity that I felt like, whatever you want to do, wherever you
want to go, in whatever circumstances, I'm there. It's
that important to me. it's really, really important to
(07:38):
me. And that just kind of continued
on through the length of our relationship and
that I would be willing to lie about who I
was. I would be willing to do all kinds of things.
But the thing that I love about the title, and I credit my writing
group for helping me find it, because I had a number of really terrible titles
(08:00):
before this, and that it really doesn't just
mean her. It started out really related to her, but
then it also extended to my
birth father's family. It also extended to,
I think, my adoptive parents that I
(08:21):
felt like I would need them wherever and in whatever
way, you know, whatever way we could to connect. My
adoptive mother had dementia toward the end of her life,
and I felt very, very close to
her then, but felt the same way about her, like I wouldn't meet her anywhere.
you know, in whatever state she was or in whatever way
(08:44):
she was able to be with me. And then ultimately, I
was like, oh, actually, it's like I would meet, you
know, meeting myself, you know, being able to meet myself on
this journey. And also, for me, the
importance of adopting community. and
that adoptee community is very, very important to me. And
(09:06):
then ultimately my readers, you know, I would be, I've
been on a huge book tour for, you know, 10 months, you
know, just meeting people for whom the book has
resonated has also been really, really meaningful to
me. It's the way that I also sign my books
(09:27):
Uh, I loved your I would meet you in Seattle. I would meet you in Chicago.
So it's really about making connection. And it starts
out, you know, very specifically about the day that
I met my birth mother, but I think it really extends further
Yes. And as you evolve throughout the
(09:49):
book, I feel like you were less sacrificial
of your own needs in the process. I mean, at
the beginning, you literally would have dropped anything to
go find Yumi and she often would not reciprocate,
right? It was just kind of chasing energy. But
I feel like as you grew, you set some more
(10:11):
boundaries or took better care of yourself as you went through. Do you feel that
Oh, definitely, definitely. You know, at the beginning, I
really literally would have done anything. And I think, you
know, later on, I felt like I
needed to do what I needed to do for myself. Part of it was
actually writing the book. You know, that was sort of
(10:36):
Yes. Yes. And how has it been for you? Did it,
did it release something in you when you hit that publish button and we're done
Yeah, it did. I mean, it did in a way that I
really was not expecting. Like I wasn't expecting it
to have the emotional impact
that it did. And what I often say is that, you
(10:59):
know, I carried so much of this in my body and in my psyche.
And I thought about it all the time, it was really kind of all
consuming. Once I put it in the book, it like
it lives in the book and how it lives in the pages. And
I feel like I was able to put my burden down
and let it live in the pages. And it
(11:22):
doesn't stay with me in the way that it did before I
That's beautiful. I know that writing can be so healing, and I've heard that from several
adoptees that I've interviewed about their memoirs, how much
of a process of healing that actual writing and publishing has
been. That's really great. I pulled out a little quote from
(11:42):
the toward the end of your book that is so powerful. It says, Still,
I couldn't resist Yumi's siren call. I
would crash on the rocks of her. And
I mean, how many of us do that for whoever is
our people that we would do practically anything for?
And it's so, it's
(12:04):
so fraught. There's actually this short film by an adoptee
I know, Farrell Amadeus, and somebody kind
of tricks her into saying, I found your birth mother and I will take you to her
and then proceeds to try to kill her. really
kind of horror little mini film. But
it is like, well, yeah, that's what
(12:27):
we're willing to do for those people that call our name. You know,
we're willing to just put ourselves in tricky situations,
put ourselves at risk, you know, ignore red flags
and and that bond with your birth mother. It's so,
so, so strong. Are you able, well,
you did in your book beautifully, but are you able in literal, in
(12:50):
time words, explain how frustrating that
was for you to be so drawn to this woman that
was so ambivalent and so unable to give
Well, it was hard, you know, and I think it was also especially hard
for people around me who care about me, who
(13:12):
saw me keep going back for more and
keep keep trying, or, you
know, for a relationship that really couldn't
be the way that I wanted. You know, I think it couldn't be
because of each other. Like I couldn't give her the relationship that
she wanted and vice versa, you know, because we just
(13:34):
wanted really different things out of it. And that was that
was difficult. And it was difficult for people who care about me
to see me getting hurt. And I
I think it was It was really challenging. It was
hard. Yeah. And I think putting it in the book has
allowed me to kind of step back and look at it
(13:54):
from a slightly more I'm never going to be
totally objective, but being able to look at the whole
thing from a slightly more objective viewpoint
and see just how I don't know, lopsided it
was or just yeah, it was just it
(14:15):
As you've toured around the country on your book tour, have other adoptees
said, oh, my gosh, I do the same thing or I've done the same thing? Oh,
I mean, and that's been that's been one of the best parts, I think, of
putting the book out is finding you
know, that I was able to validate experience of other adoptees and
(14:35):
they for me as well, where they were like, this really
resonated, I really got this, I really understood, you really
articulated my experience. And that's been one
I bet, I bet, I bet so many adoptees can be like, oh my
gosh, yes. no matter, you know, what their racial situation
is or details, but that drive to connect
(14:59):
with your birth mother, I think is probably universal. One
thing I loved about your book was the many details, just
little tiny sensory details that just put you in the
place. Is that because you're an English teacher?
I mean, I know that's what people teach to do, but it was, it seemed also
so organic. It wasn't just like, now here's your sense of sight and
(15:22):
here's your sense of sound. You know, it wasn't like formulaic in
any way. It felt very natural and just pulled me in. How did
You know, I have to say it's just the
way I experience the world. Do you know what I mean? And
it's, I know that I've heard about musicians or
dancers or visual artists, their brains work.
(15:45):
Like somebody said, I always see in colors, you know, always noticing
the color shapes or things. And I don't do
that, but when I'm walking around in the world, I'm
narrating it in my head. And I'm kind of like describing
the shape of the leaves outside the window where I'm, you
(16:08):
I'm just living descriptive words, narrating my
life. Like what I mean, like she slumped against
the steering wheel in her car. I
don't know what it is or just, it's
weirdly the way that my brain works. And so I just write
(16:28):
Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. But how did you remember those details,
especially as, you know, during your first reunion or when you're
Well, I actually happen to have right here. This is the journal
that I was writing in when I met her. I
mean, I knew that a day like
that, it would be so easy to just have an out-of-body
(16:51):
experience and forget it instantly, you know, or
for it to just, you know, it's so surreal and
it's very hard to hold onto it. So I forced myself to
write down every detail as soon as I got back to
where I was staying. and just not forget this. And
so, and it's interesting, because I hadn't really looked at it
(17:14):
a lot while I was writing. And then I went back and
sort of did a reality check and I'm like, oh, you know, I've been using
my imagination. It wasn't exactly like that, you know. And
so I had to like do a reality check on myself, a
fact check on myself. And see, no, I wrote
this, you know, on that day, many decades ago,
(17:37):
Yeah. It's interesting. Our brain does kind of make up stuff
as it goes along. It just kind of transforms, but you have the
actual documentation. That's pretty amazing. You're like a writer's writer. That's
pretty incredible. That is amazing. And toward the
end of the book, you talk about what life might have been like if
instead of being adopted, maybe you were taken care of by your white
(17:59):
side of your family, or maybe adopted by white people, I don't know. But
I think there was a chance that somebody else could have taken care of you if
they had known on your white side. And then you were like, whoa, what must that
have been like? You wouldn't have had all the Japanese culture that you grew up with. And,
whew, I mean, that's like a parallel universe kind of question. How could you ever know?
Well, I think, I mean, it came up and this is
(18:22):
a little bit of a spoiler. So close your ears. You don't want
to hear a spoiler. But I did meet people
from the paternal side of my family eventually. And,
you know, they said, Oh, if we'd only known you could have lived with
us. And, you know, I saw where they
lived and how they lived. And it was a completely different existence.
(18:43):
There's like no Japanese people or other Asian people anywhere
around. And it would have been a completely different
life. You know, I would have gained things that I didn't
have and I don't have. And I would
have lost things that are very, very dear to me. So. It
just kind of brings up the randomness, I think, of adoption
(19:06):
that, you know, there's a child and then there
are, you know, all sorts of parents or, you
know, potential parents. And it's really random where
that child ends up, you know, and it could be just, you know,
a flip of a file in some social worker's office. It
could have been, who happened to be available or
(19:27):
home, who happened to know. And in my case, they
didn't know. And if they had known, it would have been very, very different. So
just knowing about these potential alternative
lives, it's kind of mind-blowing. You
just don't know how it could have been different. And I know
that this is something that comes up for many, many adoptees, that
(19:51):
just one little twist of fate and they're on
to a different path. That's it's kind of incredible. I guess that is
true for anyone. Every egg gets fertilized by a different sperm
and you just never know what it's going to create. You know, it's just like life
is kind of crazy like that. But I think it's particularly poignant
for for adoptees. And when you have different
(20:13):
possibilities right in front of your eyes, especially after you are in
reunion, you're like, oh, this would have been much different. I
wonder if you would be willing to read a very small
part of your book about luck. Adoptees are
often said, you're so lucky, are often told they're so lucky.
And you wrote about it beautifully. It's where the first third
(20:34):
of the book, this is after your adoptive parents met with
Right. So we had lunch together and the
meal was just sort of wrapping up. And so here's
my my parents. So nice to meet you. So
nice to meet you, too. Then my father cleared his
throat like he was going to make an announcement. Well, we
(20:56):
really do need to thank you for turning this little girl over to
us. We sure do love her. He coughed. My
mother nodded, not saying anything. Bright tears sprang
into my eyes. It was the first that anyone had mentioned anything
about our odd triangle. Yumi said, Oh
no, I have to thank you for taking such good care. She
(21:17):
has been very, very lucky. She turned to me and said it
again. You've been extremely lucky. lucky
they all looked at me their face faces shiny with pride and
maybe a little bit of envy at my tremendous luck luck
was when your number gets called at the carnival and you get to walk home
with a stuffed bear that is as tall as you this didn't feel
(21:41):
I bet a bunch of adoptees underlined that part in your book. I'm
going to guess. I also noticed something when you read that after your dad
said, we sure do love her. Just the two word sentence, he
coughed. And I can just imagine that kind of getting stuck
in his throat. Like, oh, we don't usually talk about this kind of stuff. Is
(22:03):
Because he was He was getting emotional. Yeah.
You know, got to interrupt this a little bit. Mm hmm. Yeah,
I think he I think he was getting emotional. And it was also like, you
know, that kind of throat clearing you make when you're like about speech
like this is very important. Yes. I'm
(22:23):
Oh gosh. Yeah, little details like that just
put you in the place and your writing is just so
beautifully done. You know, you absolutely give
us all the details we need for the scene and then you reflect on it like
that paragraph about being lucky. It's just so amazing.
It's so great. What would you like
(22:46):
us adoptive parents to know? If you
could talk to all the adoptive parents in the world, what would you like them to know
Well, one, that it's incredibly complicated. And I mean,
I think I would really want pre-adoptive parents to know this.
I wish that more pre-adoptive or
prospective adoptive parents would read it just
(23:09):
to know what might be ahead on some
level. And of course I do not speak for
or write for all adoptees because our experiences are so very
varied and diverse and different. But
I think, you know, I didn't realize it at the time, but
my parents were just so matter of
(23:31):
fact. And so you want to search for your
birth mother? Of course. What took you so long? Of course. You
know, and they just were you know, they didn't push me to do it,
but they didn't prevent. And they never, ever
indicated if they felt any sense
of threaten or hurt or
(23:53):
anything like that. And I know that so many adoptees that
I know feel like, well, I'm not going to, I would never search until
like my parents die. And at which place your birth parents
could have died. Well, you know, everyone could be dead
at that point. And this huge sense of
having to protect our adoptive parents. And
(24:15):
my parents just, I took for granted, I really took for
granted that they never made me have that feeling. They
were just like, what do you need? How can we help you?
What's going on? And they were just very
matter of fact about it. And that is something that I appreciate so much.
and they may have felt hurt or worried
(24:38):
or whatever, but they never let on to
me. They dealt with that over there on their own side. They took care of it
on their own side. And, you know, they were happy to meet her.
And, you know, they were they were just really great about that. And
I think that's one thing that I would want adoptive parents to
take away from it is that, you know, I love my parents so much.
(25:00):
They're like everything to me. Right. And
me wanting to know about my birth family has nothing to
do with them. Nothing to do with them. And it's
not because I was happy, unhappy, lucky, unlucky,
all the things, you know, it was just like something that I
really needed to know. And, you know, sometimes I wonder if
(25:21):
it had if it was exacerbated by being
biracial and having people ask me a lot, well,
what are you? And I didn't know the answer. They didn't know the answer. And
that I think that was a factor
for sure. But I think supporting your
child wherever they are. And I think
(25:45):
Yes, yes, yes. I hope adoptive parents are listening and anyone,
you know, that has friends or family members that
are adopted, all we can do is support them, what they
need, what they need. And none of it is personal and go deal with your own
shit on your own side if you need to. It's fine. It's okay to have feelings, right?
Of course. Adoptive parents have feelings. It's totally natural. Go
(26:06):
do that in your own therapy, coaching or whatever. And don't
hand that to your kid to deal with on top of everything else, because there's enough that
our adopted kids are already dealing with. Oh my gosh, I have one more very
important question for you. Throughout the book, you write
how Yumi called your name. And
(26:29):
Susan? OK, lovely.
Kind of like it was very kind
of drawn out in this way. I
don't know. It's kind of like that. And my parents said
my name kind of in a more Japanese way, like Susan. Oh,
yeah, yeah. There's no. Yeah. And because that's how my
(26:50):
grandparents called my you know, they said it in
It was just different. Well, thank
you for solving that mystery for me. I was wondering that for the whole time. Very
Yeah, I don't know. I
(27:11):
had a wonderful audio narrator who did it.
Oh, it wasn't you. I had done
the audio for a mini memoir, The Mouse Room, which is actually an
excerpt from here. And I did the audio for
that. And it was so challenging. One
is that I have a tendency to edit as I read. And
(27:32):
it's very hard for me to read as it is on the page, because I'm like,
I don't like that word. I'm going to change that word. And
your publisher's like, no, you can't change it. Well, you have to read it word
for word. I kept messing up on that level. And
then it's also, you know, it's just emotionally exhausting, you
know, to literally read the entire thing.
(27:53):
It's, you know, it's very vulnerable. It's very personal.
Yeah, I mean, I can read a passage of a couple pages when I'm at
an event or something, but thought of reading over
200 pages was just, I couldn't do it. Yeah,
no, I don't blame you at all. I don't blame you. And I actually haven't listened to the
whole thing. I listened to the first part of it on
(28:23):
I have no idea how she actually says the name. It's
That's hilarious. Well, hopefully she got it kind of close. That's
really great. Now, your book, of course, is available on Amazon. Is
there any other way to get ahold of you or the book? How would you
Sure. My website is www.thesusanito.com. So
(28:47):
that's my full website. I'm also on most of
the social medias as The Susan Ito. And
that's it. There's a contact form on my website. You
can contact me through there and I will write back as
No, I'm not actively looking, but if somebody invites
(29:11):
me to a thing, I will go to a thing if I'm available.
So somehow my calendar keeps filling up.
I'm actually going to Virginia in October and
I have a number of appearances in the Bay Area. I'm
gonna be part of Litquake and Lit Hop in Fresno and
(29:33):
Nice. Oh, well, your book is amazing and
everybody should read it if they haven't already and just share
it. And, you know, listeners just help get Susan's book out
into the world even more because it's so important for
us to hear adoptee stories, transracial and interracial,
biracial adoption stories. It's so important. Reunion
(29:55):
stories. So thank you. Is there anything else that you'd
I don't think so. I think I appreciate anyone
who who reads the book. I encourage people to
write their own stories if they find it
helpful. And I'm really honored to be
(30:15):
part of the conversation. It's a big conversation, an important one.
Very important. Thank you and congratulations on your wonderful
achievements and keep going. And I know, I think there's a
couple more books in you, right? I'm working on a couple more right now. Yeah. All
right. I'll be first in line. Thank you very much, Susan, for
being here and sharing yourself with us today. Thank you so much.
(30:37):
And listeners, after you go check out Susan's book, make sure
and find Unraveling Adoption on the internet at unravelingadoption.com. And
we really appreciate your reviews of
our books and our podcast. I
don't know about you, but I always read other people's reviews before buying
things. So if you have a moment to go review Unraveling Adoption
(30:59):
podcast or go review Susan's book or go review our
book, Adoption and Suicidality, those small efforts really,
really add up and they help very much to get the word out to other
people. Thank you so much for your support, everyone. Thank you all for
listening. Susan and I want you all to stay safe.
Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to
delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Syverson. I'm
an adoptive mom of a vibrant and insightful 20-year-old son,
Joey. I'm walking beside him while working on my own personal
growth and healing. Joey and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by
adoption, and we want to help the general public understand adoption's complexities
(00:24):
better, too. I'm also a certified coach helping seekers
who want to move their lives forward. Well, listeners, I
always advocate for reading adoptee memoirs and
birth parent memoirs, too. I think it's one of the best ways to
understand adoption's complexities. Today's guest, Susan
Kiyo Ito, is a writing professor at Mills College in San
(00:46):
Francisco, and her memoir, I Would Meet You Anywhere,
was a 30-year project in the making. But like a fine
wine, her writing was exquisite and brought me on a roller coaster
ride right along with her. It brought me literally to
tears several times, which is very unusual for me. Her
book has achieved high honors in the literary world. It was
(01:07):
a finalist for the 2024 William Soroyan International Prize
for Writing in Nonfiction. It was a finalist for
the 2023 National Book Critics Circle Award for Autobiography. And
it won the Library Journal's Best Memoir for
2023. Not too shabby, really amazing. And
(01:27):
because her writing is so damn good, Susan's memoir is reaching
a wide audience well beyond the adoption community,
helping others understand adoption's complexities better. So
Yeah, and thank you very much for sharing the gift of your writing. Those
(01:48):
30 years were well spent. I'm sure for part of them, you're like, God, when
is this book gonna get finished? But I think it finished it exactly when it
needed to be and is hitting the perfect note today. I
Yeah, I'm particularly in tune with your story because
my son was adopted from Japan. So we have the
Japanese thing and my ex-husband, his adoptive dad
(02:11):
is Japanese American. And, but my son is a
hundred percent Japanese and you're half white and
half Japanese, but raised by Japanese parents. So it's like, we're
just like the inverse of each other flipped around. And
I just want to sit at your feet and learn. So I'm so
grateful that you're here. Why don't we just start with you just sharing
(02:33):
a little bit about your origin story so people can understand
Sure. Well, to start out with, I was adopted at
three and a half months of age. I am biracial,
half white, half Japanese, and my adoptive
parents are second generation Japanese American. I'm third generation.
(02:53):
And they had been waiting quite a long time. They were
on a waiting list at an adoption agency for over 10 years
before the agency contacted them and said,
well, we have a half Japanese baby. And they jumped it,
jumped a chance. And I think back then
in the day, it was 1959. Matching was very
(03:14):
much of a thing. And I'm not really sure if it
was a mutual decision of theirs, if they would have accepted
a baby of another race, or if it
just wasn't acceptable to give a baby of another race. It's
not clear. But they saw friends
of theirs, people that they knew who were trying to adopt, who were
(03:37):
able to adopt within a year or two. And here they are
going on over a decade. And I know that
it was really rough for them. So they were very happy when
I showed up. I bet. Yeah, so that
was our experience that they were very happy to have
me. You know, but I was always aware that I was adopted. I
was aware that I wasn't a complete match and
(04:00):
that I looked different from them. And they were
very matter of fact about it. You know, they didn't try to
pretend otherwise, but they
also, I would say, raised me to
be very connected to Japanese heritage.
I loved those parts of your book, you know, the church you went to kind
(04:22):
of far away that was a Japanese church and all the holidays and
festivities and food, all of that is so
impactful. And I thought that was all wonderful. And
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the
book, you know, the book talks about your upbringing for
(04:44):
sure, but it kind of centers around, the title even talks about
this desire to be around in the orbit of your birth
mother, Yumi. How would you describe your
I would describe her as very charismatic,
(05:04):
very social, charismatic,
cheerful person, although very, very private
at the same time. I think she had a deep ambivalence about
me, knowing me, having a relationship with me
from the very beginning. And I think it was a real challenge
(05:25):
for her because it was such a deeply held
secret for her. It was it was difficult. And
And you could probably very likely identify this better than
me. But I believe in the Japanese culture that kind of
let's just not talk about it. Let's just not air
(05:47):
our dirty laundry. That kind of thing is very prominent in Japanese Asian culture
probably overall. But I wonder that was probably a
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I do know she
told me that her parents never knew about me. Her
There's an organization here in LA, in Little Tokyo, that is doing a lot of great
(06:09):
work around mental health and kind of reducing that
stigma in the Japanese culture, which I
know from just watching my ex-husband's family and just being
around Japanese people. is it is not
a small thing. It is a small thing. It's a cultural
stigma that that we have to reckon with, especially people
(06:30):
like you that are kind of stuck in the middle and had no choice in it.
And, you know, your life is
not a stigma, but I'm sure it felt like
it was right. Like you're an actual person. You're not something
to be hidden or to be ashamed of. Absolutely not.
But I'm sure that that's how it felt. And that must have been very painful. Yeah,
(06:54):
yeah. Well, and your title of the book, would you like to
talk about the title and the links that you would go to
Yeah, the title actually comes from
a little passage from the day that I met
her. I was a college student and, you
know, I was just being silly in my head, kind of doing this little Dr.
(07:17):
Seuss thing. I would meet you in a car. I would meet you in a jar. You
know, I would meet you anywhere. But it really did speak
to just this incredible sense of urgency
and intensity that I felt like, whatever you want to do, wherever you
want to go, in whatever circumstances, I'm there. It's
that important to me. it's really, really important to
(07:38):
me. And that just kind of continued
on through the length of our relationship and
that I would be willing to lie about who I
was. I would be willing to do all kinds of things.
But the thing that I love about the title, and I credit my writing
group for helping me find it, because I had a number of really terrible titles
(08:00):
before this, and that it really doesn't just
mean her. It started out really related to her, but
then it also extended to my
birth father's family. It also extended to,
I think, my adoptive parents that I
(08:21):
felt like I would need them wherever and in whatever
way, you know, whatever way we could to connect. My
adoptive mother had dementia toward the end of her life,
and I felt very, very close to
her then, but felt the same way about her, like I wouldn't meet her anywhere.
you know, in whatever state she was or in whatever way
(08:44):
she was able to be with me. And then ultimately, I
was like, oh, actually, it's like I would meet, you
know, meeting myself, you know, being able to meet myself on
this journey. And also, for me, the
importance of adopting community. and
that adoptee community is very, very important to me. And
(09:06):
then ultimately my readers, you know, I would be, I've
been on a huge book tour for, you know, 10 months, you
know, just meeting people for whom the book has
resonated has also been really, really meaningful to
me. It's the way that I also sign my books
(09:27):
Uh, I loved your I would meet you in Seattle. I would meet you in Chicago.
So it's really about making connection. And it starts
out, you know, very specifically about the day that
I met my birth mother, but I think it really extends further
Yes. And as you evolve throughout the
(09:49):
book, I feel like you were less sacrificial
of your own needs in the process. I mean, at
the beginning, you literally would have dropped anything to
go find Yumi and she often would not reciprocate,
right? It was just kind of chasing energy. But
I feel like as you grew, you set some more
(10:11):
boundaries or took better care of yourself as you went through. Do you feel that
Oh, definitely, definitely. You know, at the beginning, I
really literally would have done anything. And I think, you
know, later on, I felt like I
needed to do what I needed to do for myself. Part of it was
actually writing the book. You know, that was sort of
(10:36):
Yes. Yes. And how has it been for you? Did it,
did it release something in you when you hit that publish button and we're done
Yeah, it did. I mean, it did in a way that I
really was not expecting. Like I wasn't expecting it
to have the emotional impact
that it did. And what I often say is that, you
(10:59):
know, I carried so much of this in my body and in my psyche.
And I thought about it all the time, it was really kind of all
consuming. Once I put it in the book, it like
it lives in the book and how it lives in the pages. And
I feel like I was able to put my burden down
and let it live in the pages. And it
(11:22):
doesn't stay with me in the way that it did before I
That's beautiful. I know that writing can be so healing, and I've heard that from several
adoptees that I've interviewed about their memoirs, how much
of a process of healing that actual writing and publishing has
been. That's really great. I pulled out a little quote from
(11:42):
the toward the end of your book that is so powerful. It says, Still,
I couldn't resist Yumi's siren call. I
would crash on the rocks of her. And
I mean, how many of us do that for whoever is
our people that we would do practically anything for?
And it's so, it's
(12:04):
so fraught. There's actually this short film by an adoptee
I know, Farrell Amadeus, and somebody kind
of tricks her into saying, I found your birth mother and I will take you to her
and then proceeds to try to kill her. really
kind of horror little mini film. But
it is like, well, yeah, that's what
(12:27):
we're willing to do for those people that call our name. You know,
we're willing to just put ourselves in tricky situations,
put ourselves at risk, you know, ignore red flags
and and that bond with your birth mother. It's so,
so, so strong. Are you able, well,
you did in your book beautifully, but are you able in literal, in
(12:50):
time words, explain how frustrating that
was for you to be so drawn to this woman that
was so ambivalent and so unable to give
Well, it was hard, you know, and I think it was also especially hard
for people around me who care about me, who
(13:12):
saw me keep going back for more and
keep keep trying, or, you
know, for a relationship that really couldn't
be the way that I wanted. You know, I think it couldn't be
because of each other. Like I couldn't give her the relationship that
she wanted and vice versa, you know, because we just
(13:34):
wanted really different things out of it. And that was that
was difficult. And it was difficult for people who care about me
to see me getting hurt. And I
I think it was It was really challenging. It was
hard. Yeah. And I think putting it in the book has
allowed me to kind of step back and look at it
(13:54):
from a slightly more I'm never going to be
totally objective, but being able to look at the whole
thing from a slightly more objective viewpoint
and see just how I don't know, lopsided it
was or just yeah, it was just it
(14:15):
As you've toured around the country on your book tour, have other adoptees
said, oh, my gosh, I do the same thing or I've done the same thing? Oh,
I mean, and that's been that's been one of the best parts, I think, of
putting the book out is finding you
know, that I was able to validate experience of other adoptees and
(14:35):
they for me as well, where they were like, this really
resonated, I really got this, I really understood, you really
articulated my experience. And that's been one
I bet, I bet, I bet so many adoptees can be like, oh my
gosh, yes. no matter, you know, what their racial situation
is or details, but that drive to connect
(14:59):
with your birth mother, I think is probably universal. One
thing I loved about your book was the many details, just
little tiny sensory details that just put you in the
place. Is that because you're an English teacher?
I mean, I know that's what people teach to do, but it was, it seemed also
so organic. It wasn't just like, now here's your sense of sight and
(15:22):
here's your sense of sound. You know, it wasn't like formulaic in
any way. It felt very natural and just pulled me in. How did
You know, I have to say it's just the
way I experience the world. Do you know what I mean? And
it's, I know that I've heard about musicians or
dancers or visual artists, their brains work.
(15:45):
Like somebody said, I always see in colors, you know, always noticing
the color shapes or things. And I don't do
that, but when I'm walking around in the world, I'm
narrating it in my head. And I'm kind of like describing
the shape of the leaves outside the window where I'm, you
(16:08):
I'm just living descriptive words, narrating my
life. Like what I mean, like she slumped against
the steering wheel in her car. I
don't know what it is or just, it's
weirdly the way that my brain works. And so I just write
(16:28):
Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. But how did you remember those details,
especially as, you know, during your first reunion or when you're
Well, I actually happen to have right here. This is the journal
that I was writing in when I met her. I
mean, I knew that a day like
that, it would be so easy to just have an out-of-body
(16:51):
experience and forget it instantly, you know, or
for it to just, you know, it's so surreal and
it's very hard to hold onto it. So I forced myself to
write down every detail as soon as I got back to
where I was staying. and just not forget this. And
so, and it's interesting, because I hadn't really looked at it
(17:14):
a lot while I was writing. And then I went back and
sort of did a reality check and I'm like, oh, you know, I've been using
my imagination. It wasn't exactly like that, you know. And
so I had to like do a reality check on myself, a
fact check on myself. And see, no, I wrote
this, you know, on that day, many decades ago,
(17:37):
Yeah. It's interesting. Our brain does kind of make up stuff
as it goes along. It just kind of transforms, but you have the
actual documentation. That's pretty amazing. You're like a writer's writer. That's
pretty incredible. That is amazing. And toward the
end of the book, you talk about what life might have been like if
instead of being adopted, maybe you were taken care of by your white
(17:59):
side of your family, or maybe adopted by white people, I don't know. But
I think there was a chance that somebody else could have taken care of you if
they had known on your white side. And then you were like, whoa, what must that
have been like? You wouldn't have had all the Japanese culture that you grew up with. And,
whew, I mean, that's like a parallel universe kind of question. How could you ever know?
Well, I think, I mean, it came up and this is
(18:22):
a little bit of a spoiler. So close your ears. You don't want
to hear a spoiler. But I did meet people
from the paternal side of my family eventually. And,
you know, they said, Oh, if we'd only known you could have lived with
us. And, you know, I saw where they
lived and how they lived. And it was a completely different existence.
(18:43):
There's like no Japanese people or other Asian people anywhere
around. And it would have been a completely different
life. You know, I would have gained things that I didn't
have and I don't have. And I would
have lost things that are very, very dear to me. So. It
just kind of brings up the randomness, I think, of adoption
(19:06):
that, you know, there's a child and then there
are, you know, all sorts of parents or, you
know, potential parents. And it's really random where
that child ends up, you know, and it could be just, you know,
a flip of a file in some social worker's office. It
could have been, who happened to be available or
(19:27):
home, who happened to know. And in my case, they
didn't know. And if they had known, it would have been very, very different. So
just knowing about these potential alternative
lives, it's kind of mind-blowing. You
just don't know how it could have been different. And I know
that this is something that comes up for many, many adoptees, that
(19:51):
just one little twist of fate and they're on
to a different path. That's it's kind of incredible. I guess that is
true for anyone. Every egg gets fertilized by a different sperm
and you just never know what it's going to create. You know, it's just like life
is kind of crazy like that. But I think it's particularly poignant
for for adoptees. And when you have different
(20:13):
possibilities right in front of your eyes, especially after you are in
reunion, you're like, oh, this would have been much different. I
wonder if you would be willing to read a very small
part of your book about luck. Adoptees are
often said, you're so lucky, are often told they're so lucky.
And you wrote about it beautifully. It's where the first third
(20:34):
of the book, this is after your adoptive parents met with
Right. So we had lunch together and the
meal was just sort of wrapping up. And so here's
my my parents. So nice to meet you. So
nice to meet you, too. Then my father cleared his
throat like he was going to make an announcement. Well, we
(20:56):
really do need to thank you for turning this little girl over to
us. We sure do love her. He coughed. My
mother nodded, not saying anything. Bright tears sprang
into my eyes. It was the first that anyone had mentioned anything
about our odd triangle. Yumi said, Oh
no, I have to thank you for taking such good care. She
(21:17):
has been very, very lucky. She turned to me and said it
again. You've been extremely lucky. lucky
they all looked at me their face faces shiny with pride and
maybe a little bit of envy at my tremendous luck luck
was when your number gets called at the carnival and you get to walk home
with a stuffed bear that is as tall as you this didn't feel
(21:41):
I bet a bunch of adoptees underlined that part in your book. I'm
going to guess. I also noticed something when you read that after your dad
said, we sure do love her. Just the two word sentence, he
coughed. And I can just imagine that kind of getting stuck
in his throat. Like, oh, we don't usually talk about this kind of stuff. Is
(22:03):
Because he was He was getting emotional. Yeah.
You know, got to interrupt this a little bit. Mm hmm. Yeah,
I think he I think he was getting emotional. And it was also like, you
know, that kind of throat clearing you make when you're like about speech
like this is very important. Yes. I'm
(22:23):
Oh gosh. Yeah, little details like that just
put you in the place and your writing is just so
beautifully done. You know, you absolutely give
us all the details we need for the scene and then you reflect on it like
that paragraph about being lucky. It's just so amazing.
It's so great. What would you like
(22:46):
us adoptive parents to know? If you
could talk to all the adoptive parents in the world, what would you like them to know
Well, one, that it's incredibly complicated. And I mean,
I think I would really want pre-adoptive parents to know this.
I wish that more pre-adoptive or
prospective adoptive parents would read it just
(23:09):
to know what might be ahead on some
level. And of course I do not speak for
or write for all adoptees because our experiences are so very
varied and diverse and different. But
I think, you know, I didn't realize it at the time, but
my parents were just so matter of
(23:31):
fact. And so you want to search for your
birth mother? Of course. What took you so long? Of course. You
know, and they just were you know, they didn't push me to do it,
but they didn't prevent. And they never, ever
indicated if they felt any sense
of threaten or hurt or
(23:53):
anything like that. And I know that so many adoptees that
I know feel like, well, I'm not going to, I would never search until
like my parents die. And at which place your birth parents
could have died. Well, you know, everyone could be dead
at that point. And this huge sense of
having to protect our adoptive parents. And
(24:15):
my parents just, I took for granted, I really took for
granted that they never made me have that feeling. They
were just like, what do you need? How can we help you?
What's going on? And they were just very
matter of fact about it. And that is something that I appreciate so much.
and they may have felt hurt or worried
(24:38):
or whatever, but they never let on to
me. They dealt with that over there on their own side. They took care of it
on their own side. And, you know, they were happy to meet her.
And, you know, they were they were just really great about that. And
I think that's one thing that I would want adoptive parents to
take away from it is that, you know, I love my parents so much.
(25:00):
They're like everything to me. Right. And
me wanting to know about my birth family has nothing to
do with them. Nothing to do with them. And it's
not because I was happy, unhappy, lucky, unlucky,
all the things, you know, it was just like something that I
really needed to know. And, you know, sometimes I wonder if
(25:21):
it had if it was exacerbated by being
biracial and having people ask me a lot, well,
what are you? And I didn't know the answer. They didn't know the answer. And
that I think that was a factor
for sure. But I think supporting your
child wherever they are. And I think
(25:45):
Yes, yes, yes. I hope adoptive parents are listening and anyone,
you know, that has friends or family members that
are adopted, all we can do is support them, what they
need, what they need. And none of it is personal and go deal with your own
shit on your own side if you need to. It's fine. It's okay to have feelings, right?
Of course. Adoptive parents have feelings. It's totally natural. Go
(26:06):
do that in your own therapy, coaching or whatever. And don't
hand that to your kid to deal with on top of everything else, because there's enough that
our adopted kids are already dealing with. Oh my gosh, I have one more very
important question for you. Throughout the book, you write
how Yumi called your name. And
(26:29):
Susan? OK, lovely.
Kind of like it was very kind
of drawn out in this way. I
don't know. It's kind of like that. And my parents said
my name kind of in a more Japanese way, like Susan. Oh,
yeah, yeah. There's no. Yeah. And because that's how my
(26:50):
grandparents called my you know, they said it in
It was just different. Well, thank
you for solving that mystery for me. I was wondering that for the whole time. Very
Yeah, I don't know. I
(27:11):
had a wonderful audio narrator who did it.
Oh, it wasn't you. I had done
the audio for a mini memoir, The Mouse Room, which is actually an
excerpt from here. And I did the audio for
that. And it was so challenging. One
is that I have a tendency to edit as I read. And
(27:32):
it's very hard for me to read as it is on the page, because I'm like,
I don't like that word. I'm going to change that word. And
your publisher's like, no, you can't change it. Well, you have to read it word
for word. I kept messing up on that level. And
then it's also, you know, it's just emotionally exhausting, you
know, to literally read the entire thing.
(27:53):
It's, you know, it's very vulnerable. It's very personal.
Yeah, I mean, I can read a passage of a couple pages when I'm at
an event or something, but thought of reading over
200 pages was just, I couldn't do it. Yeah,
no, I don't blame you at all. I don't blame you. And I actually haven't listened to the
whole thing. I listened to the first part of it on
(28:23):
I have no idea how she actually says the name. It's
That's hilarious. Well, hopefully she got it kind of close. That's
really great. Now, your book, of course, is available on Amazon. Is
there any other way to get ahold of you or the book? How would you
Sure. My website is www.thesusanito.com. So
(28:47):
that's my full website. I'm also on most of
the social medias as The Susan Ito. And
that's it. There's a contact form on my website. You
can contact me through there and I will write back as
No, I'm not actively looking, but if somebody invites
(29:11):
me to a thing, I will go to a thing if I'm available.
So somehow my calendar keeps filling up.
I'm actually going to Virginia in October and
I have a number of appearances in the Bay Area. I'm
gonna be part of Litquake and Lit Hop in Fresno and
(29:33):
Nice. Oh, well, your book is amazing and
everybody should read it if they haven't already and just share
it. And, you know, listeners just help get Susan's book out
into the world even more because it's so important for
us to hear adoptee stories, transracial and interracial,
biracial adoption stories. It's so important. Reunion
(29:55):
stories. So thank you. Is there anything else that you'd
I don't think so. I think I appreciate anyone
who who reads the book. I encourage people to
write their own stories if they find it
helpful. And I'm really honored to be
(30:15):
part of the conversation. It's a big conversation, an important one.
Very important. Thank you and congratulations on your wonderful
achievements and keep going. And I know, I think there's a
couple more books in you, right? I'm working on a couple more right now. Yeah. All
right. I'll be first in line. Thank you very much, Susan, for
being here and sharing yourself with us today. Thank you so much.
(30:37):
And listeners, after you go check out Susan's book, make sure
and find Unraveling Adoption on the internet at unravelingadoption.com. And
we really appreciate your reviews of
our books and our podcast. I
don't know about you, but I always read other people's reviews before buying
things. So if you have a moment to go review Unraveling Adoption
(30:59):
podcast or go review Susan's book or go review our
book, Adoption and Suicidality, those small efforts really,
really add up and they help very much to get the word out to other
people. Thank you so much for your support, everyone. Thank you all for
listening. Susan and I want you all to stay safe.
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New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
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