The Plants Are Calling for the Adoption Constellation with Mee Ok Icaro - Ep 171 - Unraveling Adoption

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space
to delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth
Cyberson. I'm an adoptive mom of a brilliant and resilient 21-year-old
son, Joey, who is on his own healing path. I'm
walking beside him while working on my own personal growth and healing. Joey
and I are committed to helping anyone impacted by adoption, and we want to

(00:24):
help the general public understand adoption's complexities better too. I'm
also a certified coach helping seekers who want to move their lives forward. For
today's very special episode, I wanted to bring in Mee Ok Ikaro
again. She's been a guest twice. Once in episode 20, where
she told about her adoption story and her healing through plant medicine. And
once in episode 152, where she joined me and

(00:47):
birth mom Leslie Pate McKinnon to talk about plant medicine's insights
for the whole adoption constellation. She's also been on a
few panels I've hosted about plant medicine in the adoption space. and
she facilitates our approximately monthly medicine circles
for those who want to integrate their insights after experiencing plant
medicine. We are recording this episode just a few days

(01:09):
before we join each other in Costa Rica for a retreat she's hosting at
Sultara. I will be attending my first ayahuasca retreat
and she will be facilitating a group of us from around the world
to have what we all hope will be a transformative healing experience. We
thought we'd hop on to record a before and then later an
after. We've both been on a rigorous dieta or

(01:30):
set of restrictions in preparation for the plant medicine, so we thought
we'd talk about this process of going into something brand
new for both of us. Stay tuned for the post-retreat update,
which will come out in about a month, And I realized that
this extra long, extra special episode might not be everyone's
cup of tea. If this is not for you, please go find another

(01:51):
episode that might resonate more deeply. And next week, we'll go back
to our regular programming. Let
me start by saying that when I interviewed you, remember
it took me a few tries to get you to even do
an interview or to even talk to me, which is fine. It's fine. Totally
understandable. I wouldn't talk to me either. I get it. But

(02:13):
when I did sit down and talk to you, This was so far
not on my plane of existence. I had no
idea. I thought I was just talking to a really interesting person who's done really
interesting things and who's experienced amazing healing. And
I was just here for it. But now here I am
going on an ayahuasca ceremony journey myself in

(02:36):
one, two, three, four, five days. Yeah.
Yeah. How are you feeling? Yeah, I am very excited,
mostly excited, a little scared, excited and scared. That's
a little how I feel like I'm very excited. I wish it was tomorrow and
not five days from now. I want to go now, but I'm
very excited and just a little scared. I'm not super scared. I'm

(03:00):
less and less scared as it gets closer. But, you know, this is
super not my comfort zone. This is not what
Sure. It's certainly not the norm. Yeah. Most
people have not drank ayahuasca and certainly not done
Yes. And this is going to be not your

(03:22):
first time using ayahuasca or drinking ayahuasca. That's
a better way to say it, isn't it? But your first time leading a retreat. So
It's interesting. What I'm finding is that there's
this other level. The plants, they're so intelligent.
And so they just meet you where you are. So

(03:42):
when you're going into a retreat, like the way that we've
been sort of supporting you guys, it's about focusing on
yourself. Not moving out and, oh, this
person and that person, it's like, no, back to you, back to you, back
It's really hard, especially if you were

(04:02):
raised in an environment where you couldn't do that because
Yes. It's so natural for me to take care of
other people. I was so excited because I created this plan because
I won't be able to talk to Jan, my wife, for nine days. And
we talk every single day and we've never been apart for more
than like two or three days for some conference or

(04:24):
something. And so I thought, OK, I'm going to make a journal, and
I'll write to her every night instead of talking to her. And you're like,
hmm, can I make a suggestion? Like, ah, dang it.
Whenever Mewak says, can I make a suggestion, that
usually means taking something away. But I get it. I get it. I
get it. I get it. I'm not supposed to be thinking about how will Jan

(04:46):
feel about what I just experienced. I'm supposed to be thinking about how I
Yeah, we're really focusing on ourselves and
learning how to rewire and repattern our
conversations with ourselves. And that requires
not only adjusting our language, but also changing

(05:08):
our thought patterns, because that's what's driving us into anxiety
and depression and all of those things. But what's so interesting
is that going into this retreat and leading it, it's a
strange thing because the plants are always turning everything upside down
because our culture is upside down. And
so the way we think about what a leader is,

(05:34):
Well, for example, in a lot of indigenous tribes,
if you say you want to lead the pack, it automatically disqualifies
you. And yet only if
Yeah. So if you stand up and say, I
want to be a leader that you're not going to be a good leader. If

(05:56):
That's right. Because you want it. And so the
way people get put into leadership positions
is because everybody chooses you and Typically,
it's somebody who just isn't really interested, but

(06:18):
Yeah, well, my friend Liz Winstead has a funny quote
where she said the problem with all presidents is that they
think, you know what's wrong with this country? I'm not in charge. Yeah,
right, right, right. So there is
a sort of self-interested, egotistical
narcissism. in that. So I think there

(06:40):
is something really beautiful about getting a really humble leader.
And even in history, there was like a Roman emperor. Everyone
liked him. He was very even. He was very smart.
He ran his land well and all of that. And he
got like pulled out. And he was like, yeah, I'm not
doing this again. But we're at war. And I'm

(07:03):
the only person that both sides are cool with or
whatever. And so, okay, I'll do this, but
then I'm going back to my house. So that's more of,
I think, the archetype and personality type that you want for these
things. Well, having said that, I did have
this vision for this retreat. But what's been really interesting

(07:23):
about it is I've had to learn a lot about what
I think a leader actually is. And
what it's sort of come down to, you know, initially it was a bit different.
I was feeling a lot of anxiety and pressure. So then I had to work
through that, like suddenly it became real. And I was like, what did I
just do? Oh, but then I realized, oh

(07:45):
my God, I'm like surrounded by this team of perfectly capable
of people to where if something happened to me and like
milk had to be MIA for the whole thing, it would run fine.
Fine. So I was really, um,
delighted and, you know, I feel really grateful that
people are coming or coming. They trust me.

(08:07):
But what I realized was that I don't have to have all the answers. I
think of myself, I'm such a lesbian, but I think of myself as like kind of
a point guard. Like, yeah, I
just have to dribble a ball down the court. also get
to pass and everybody brings their strengths. So it's kind
of a little bit maybe like you're a musician, more of like a composer a

(08:29):
little bit. And so it took the pressure off, but also it
kind of made me realize that, you know, a leader has
the least ego in the space, but also
where they bear the complete brunt of
responsibility. So it's like, I'm taking responsibility for
this place, but I'm not a head honcho. There's

(08:53):
And it's your vision, though, that you've created, right? How
closely were you able to stay with your vision when you created this?
Really close. Yeah. I was able to accommodate
Yeah, yeah. So you bring that, that
creative part and that visionary part, but you're

(09:14):
leaving the ego part, which I'm sure is not the case at every one of
these retreats. I bet a lot of these leaders think, I'll
fix you all, or you guys need to come listen to me and you'll
have a great retreat and I'll set you all straight. Do you
I do. And I also see a lot of
lack of accountability. That

(09:37):
seems to be the big thing, because if I were
there and everyone working for the retreat were on my payroll.
Or I had some sort of authority over
them, then who do you go to if
you have a problem with me? HR in
the ayahuasca world? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

(09:59):
So it was really important to me to have the power
not be in any individual person, but in
That's really good. And speaking as a participant. I'm
like, seriously putting my life in your hands right now.
You know, when I go down in Sultana's hands, right? I don't

(10:20):
know. I'm going to the jungle somewhere. And there's a lot
of trust that has to be there. And
there's a lot of stuff that can go wrong. I know that
there's been a lot of, in the psychedelic world, a
lot of sexual impropriety and people taking advantage of people
that are not fully aware

(10:40):
of what's going on. And I'm sure those kinds of things are in
your mind while you're preparing for this and how to protect us.
And I trust you with all of that. But
Yeah, and I also had to be really real about my

(11:00):
own, where I am with my own healing. It's not
like I'm showing up as this perfectly healed, you
know, poster child of ayahuasca. I was showing
up as somebody who is healing. And so I've
had to look at my weaknesses and vulnerabilities and
the things that I really struggle with so that everyone

(11:22):
is protected. I mean, that's been the thing at all the
retreats that I've been to for the most part, except for Saltara,
is that the people who were leading it didn't protect
Oh, from themselves. Wow. Because they probably were blind to it
or unaware. Yeah. Or sociopaths. I

(11:46):
No, I think it was just, um, again, when you have
power and everyone's working for you, you're surrounded by
yes men. Sure. And so I just, I
really didn't want that. And so I really surrounded myself with people who
I can hear the truth from who will
give me feedback. and can do

(12:08):
so really compassionately and intelligently. And
And they're willing to do that. Like, what if they told you, Miok, you're
super off track right now? Like, would
Yeah, I mean, well, also, I think they would probably say

(12:28):
more. You know, specifics, but
I think that, you know, they would deliver it in a way to where all
of the shame that I felt from
having that message delivered to me would be all of mine. It
wouldn't be because they were shaming me. Because they

(12:49):
were right. And I can see it because they knew how to deliver that
And so you've intentionally surrounded yourself with people, you know, and
you've probably had explicit discussions with them about this. I'm going to guess. About
Oh, yeah. Well, that's the thing, too, is that, you

(13:09):
know, in terms of people trusting me, they also
are trusting where I'm doing this. Mm hmm. Like
I just, you know, Googled Iowas for retreat and
that I've experienced five times now. I'm
friends, really good friends with the

(13:30):
operations, the COO, Melissa. And I'm
really good friends with the facilitators. They've supported me in my work.
And so I know that It's
like fine, like the retreat doesn't like need
need me for everybody to be safe and
have a positive experience. But Tonya and I do

(13:53):
bring, again, like a very specific vision. And
and it's also not something that's possible to do for
a lot of retreat centers because they're seeing new
people every week. all the preparation and
everything that we've been doing, meeting with you, you can't do
that if you have guests there. And then the people

(14:14):
who are helping you in ceremonies, the people who are, you know, doing processing
and integration with you, they can't hop on zoom, you
know, the morning we leave a new group comes in. So that's how,
you know, that's how our treats work. And so Anya
and I are able to be outsiders and
come in with a group that we've been preparing. and

(14:37):
sit with you in your ceremonies, process your
ceremonies with you, and then meet with you after.
I think with the retreat business
Yeah, I can't imagine doing this without this preparation we've had. We've had two
Zoom meetings with you and as many of the participants who came. And

(14:58):
then I think we'll have six after? Six? Six.
Yeah. And so that's not typical. Is that what you're saying? That's
not how it typically works when you just are on that revolving door, like
new people in, new people in. Yeah. But since you're just coming in for this
one week as like a consultant, right? You're
just coming in and then you're able to stay with

(15:19):
us now. I don't know how to make that model sustainable like over
It's just that, yeah, because it's not like Tonya and I
are meeting with the next group right now. We are
just doing this group. And then when this group is done, we will,
Maybe I'll ask you in a couple of weeks, but at this point, do you think you'll do

(15:43):
We're just going to see. We're just going to see. We
may. I mean, you know, you and I are
independent contractors, we're consultants in the coaching world, and
I'm not particularly a business-minded person,
so I'm not sure if it

(16:04):
would be, there definitely is sort of
like people who say that your second marriage is like the good one. So,
you know, watching this retreat come together, there were certain things
that definitely the next time I would do differently
that I think would make it more successful in terms of
like business. But yeah,

(16:26):
but I think it's. It's something that I
really love doing, and I'm really excited to see in the space
how it all comes together. integration goes
and just to see also Sultara's kind
of response to what they witness that's

(16:48):
different about our retreat and even anything
that they, any ideas that they want to incorporate into their regular
That'll be interesting feedback because I know they host them
all year long, but are there different facilitators or different leaders that
Oh, I'm an anomaly doing this like this is the first time they're doing

(17:20):
Yeah. And it's a different itinerary. And it's
it's more of a traditional ayahuasca
retreat, but indigenous based. Well,
it's kind of it's more pure
ayahuasca. the additional master plants
and we're going to be taking you a little bit deeper

(17:45):
into culture. We're going to see
if the healers want to take the floor and
share more during a retreat, things like that.
They may not, I mean, they're busy and working and all
of that, but yeah, but just to kind of
bring, and also, I mean, quite honestly, When you go

(18:06):
to ayahuasca retreat centers, it's hard
to find somebody who's BIPOC doing
these things because there's no ayahuasca scholarship
to do this. I'm just super lucky to
have been funded by people in this process. And it didn't
even occur to me that I had been sort of being groomed to

(18:37):
Yeah, so, you know, if you are queer or BIPOC or
both, it can be a little more difficult
to find facilitators who, you know, aren't, you
know, unless unless you talk about people
from South America, people of

(18:57):
South America. But if you do have facilitators, it's still the same
thing. Like you're basically you know, talking
to the upper crust or people who, you
know, they went to university outside of, they went to university in
And a lot of cis white men are doing the leading
part, right? Male dominated or just

(19:22):
Yeah, it's just mostly, you know, white
people and like the caste. in
That can afford to go to university or whatever. And afford
to go to an ayahuasca retreat. Yeah, yeah. It is not cheap. And
it's it takes somebody, you know, I'm taking off

(19:44):
eight days, no, 10 days, plus kind
of a day before and a day after to pull myself back
together. And not everybody has that much
time to take off, much less the money to
Well, yeah, I mean, if you're I mean, most most people own

(20:05):
their homes, you know, at least in the States, right, they're white. And,
you know, if you're paying rent, it's too expensive
to not be home. Yes. Period. Much
less take off work and all that kind of stuff. So I remember when
I would get, sometimes I would get full scholarships to Iowa
school retreats. And it was like, I still can't afford to go. Yeah.

(20:30):
Well, I wasn't working. I just, I just couldn't afford
to leave my life. taking over my house. I
was on Section 8, so you can't have anybody house sit for you
in exchange for washing your feet. So I couldn't afford to have anybody wash

(20:51):
Yeah, they're just all those considerations, you know, for low income people
Yeah, yeah. How do you see that that rolling
out as I assume and I
hope that unless it gets totally effed up that psychedelics will
become more prevalent in the US as it becomes more legalized.

(21:13):
How is it going to be more equitable and how are people from
all strata going to be able to access it? What is your take
No. That's one reason that I'm talking about bringing
this medicine more

(21:33):
into the cultural paradigm that it's
in rather than extraction and
fitting it into our paradigm. Because when
you bring something beautiful and powerful into
a sick culture with
a sick medical system, like what

(21:54):
do you do if the hospital is sick? Like the hospital itself
is sick. I mean, it's already in the works with, I
won't name names. I don't do that publicly, but I do offer
private coaching and things like that to keep people safe. Cause
there's just, there's so much going on. There's so much abuse
that doesn't get reported. There's so much that gets suppressed. I mean, in some ways it's

(22:16):
sort of becoming the same. paradigm
is the Catholic Church or, you know, you just you
move the priests around, you move the underground therapists around, you do
Yeah, so even Last

(22:36):
spring, I got ketamine treatment through my health insurance. It's
totally FDA approved. It's on the up and up and everything. And it really,
really helped me get off of antidepressants after a couple of decades.
So I'm very grateful. But the way it was delivered was super not
Yeah, let's talk a little bit more about your process because

(22:57):
it's been quite a while since I've gone to my first
ayahuasca retreat or drank ayahuasca. and
you're still not there. But
the preparation, I'd love to hear more about your
Well, a couple of years ago, I did an
underground psilocybin kind of a day long

(23:19):
thing with a guide, but it was not as
powerful as it could have been because I was on Welbutrin. And he told me that it
will probably be dull, dulled because of the Welbutrin. And it
was, I still got quite a bit out of it. I have an underground episode
about it. If anyone wants to hear it, just let me know. but
I've been trying to get off the well-being trend for a long time. And every

(23:43):
time I would try to get off it, I would start getting kind of passively suicidal. And
I was like, well, I guess I, I guess I just got to keep taking this because if
I'm not on it, I get suicidal. So, but then
my psychiatrist, I asked my psychiatrist, okay, what else have you got? And
he said, oh, we have ketamine. It's bravado. It's a nasal spray.
And it is, um, like synthetic ketamine.

(24:05):
And I'm like, okay, set me up, set me up, do it. I'm going
to do it. And I did. And I got off of it in a couple of weeks. It
was incredible. I got off of Wellbutrin in a couple of weeks. What
do you attribute to that? It
could have been because somebody said, if you do this other thing, you can get off this other
thing. I don't know. But I think

(24:25):
the ketamine reached a part of my brain that nothing
else could reach and it reprogrammed my brain. That's what
it felt like. It's like, it's getting a new script. It's getting a new way
of behaving. But the thing that I didn't get
from them, they gave me the ketamine. Fine. It
was safe. You know, they kept checking my blood pressure every 40 minutes

(24:48):
and I felt totally safe there. But no one talked to me about
anything. It was... Okay, bye. Get
a ride home because you can't drive, but have fun with that.
And so I got help from you and my therapist
and a lot of journaling. But if I was not
that mindful or that attuned, I would have just thought, okay,

(25:09):
well, that was good. But I, you know, I think a lot of people just go and
get the treatment and don't really do the work. that
is necessary to really shift. And I think it's kind
of it's unfortunate because that medicine is powerful, but
Well, that's sort of the I was telling a friend that

(25:30):
talking about these psychedelics or these medicines and.
You know, emphasizing the active part
of using them is a little bit like defining sex by
Yeah, like the like, I was talking to my friend who's
been to Sultara twice now. And he was saying,

(25:52):
you know, it's almost like you have to experience it
the first time. And then you realize that actually,
Ceremony and working with ayahuasca actively
is about, you know, 25 20 25% of the process like
everything else is preparation integration, but it's really
difficult to explain that to somebody who

(26:19):
Yeah, just take the pill, put the nasal spray up your
nose and, you know, zone out for a couple of hours. You'll be
good. Yeah. And it's, it's just missing. And I think people
could get a lot more healing than they are with
that paradigm. But for some reason, that's what the FDA approved. And
well, the expensive part is a therapy that the spray is
very inexpensive. Right. So tell me what.

(26:45):
that shift did for you? Like
when you, when the light bulb went on of the role
that integration could play and setting up a different context for
It just allowed me to create a
new path for myself without the Wellbutrin

(27:14):
I was scared to death to get off the ketamine. And it was, it bummed me
out because I'm like, okay, now I'm off the Wellbutrin, but now I feel like I can't get
off the ketamine. So this is not good. But I just exchanged one thing for
next. And I had to get off the ketamine as part of the dieta,
which is the list, kind of a long list of
restrictions. They get stricter and stricter as you get
closer to the retreat, right? So you wanted us off,

(27:37):
and you're stricter than Sultara is. Sultara would,
I think they said maybe three days. And you're like,
nope, it needs to be a month. I'm like, what? What? Because
I felt like the ketamine was what was keeping me from
nosediving into depression again. I
was like, OK, well, shoot. But

(27:59):
I trusted you. And I had a session with you. And I
have not felt one bit depressed at all, even
off the ketamine. So I'm super grateful. And
I don't exactly know what happened, but I feel relaxed.
I feel at ease. I feel... I played

(28:22):
a couple gigs this weekend. I felt super connected
to the music, just so grateful, like practically in tears. playing
music with other human beings. And that
occasionally does happen to me, but usually like at a mountaintop kind of peak
experience. But this was just like regular old gigs. And I
felt so deeply connected and just

(28:45):
so grateful. So I don't know what you're doing to me. I
Well, you did say that. I mean, we we did a few
sessions. You also did some integration with
a therapist and you also did a lot of journaling. And
so what what about that

(29:07):
shifted you? So that ketamine now
sort of orbited you in a
I guess, I don't know, but
what I'm noticing is that when I decided to
do this ceremony back in July, I

(29:28):
was just like, fuck it. I'm
just going to do this. I need something
to shift, and this is going to shift me. And I
was open to being shifted. I think that
was a huge part of it. And the ceremony, well,
when you set me up and when I said, OK, I'm doing

(29:50):
this, you said, OK, your ceremony has already started. As
of this moment, it has started. And so I
don't exactly even know what that means yet. But I'm just
open to being shifted because I'm You
know, I'm 56, I think, and I'm
just tired of hanging on to stuff that's been hanging on

(30:11):
for a long time. I'm ready for things to shift. I'm ready for
my life to kind of blossom and open the
way I know that it can. And these
medicines and the work that I'm doing, and it's fucking
hard work. It's no barrel of laughs, I'm telling you. I'm
happy. But it's been some really tough things. Yeah,

(30:35):
You talk about the process of the so the dieta, it
means diet, but it's more of a protocol, because
it's also behavioral um, increasing technology
and, you know, just protecting your, not just your
body and readying your body, but also readying your mind,
um, doing less strenuous activities, not watching

(30:59):
horror films. And you're just trying to holistically move
away from intense stimulation. so
that you can kind of get to a closer baseline, in
a sense, to meet the medicine. And
so, yeah, can you talk a little bit about the restrictions
and some of the highlights of what has

(31:23):
affected you and what's kind of stood out to you in your process of
Yeah. I made a spreadsheet. There's so many things and
you have to give them up at different times. I'm like, I need a spreadsheet. Give me
a chart. Wow. I'm very good at following directions if I
just know what I'm supposed to do. So thank you for being clear. But
yeah, the hardest. Okay. A couple of hard, really hard

(31:45):
ones for me. uh, the phone and
I've weaned myself off a little bit at a time for weeks now,
even before the month before, but now I'm like
almost completely off of it. Um, how's
it feel? Great. I don't know if I'm going to
pick it up ever again, honestly. I, uh, and it's hard cause

(32:06):
right now we're in the middle of elections coming up and, uh, and
we won't have our phones during the retreat at all. while
the election is occurring. Oh my God. I just hope there's
a country to come back to. But it's great because there's nothing
I can do about it anyway. And so I'm
just, I've stepped away from it. And I, I used

(32:28):
to listen to podcasts or YouTube videos or
books on tape or something every minute of the day. I never
had my mind just cleared. So I, what I
did is I took out contexts of when I
could listen to my things. So first I said, okay, you can't
listen to podcasts when you're outside feeding the animals. So I

(32:48):
listened to the birds instead. That was okay. And then eventually I
said, okay, you can't listen to the radio or the podcast in
the car. Oh, that
about killed me. I thought I was going to die. I cannot believe how long those
trips took me to get to work. Oh my God. I was like
falling asleep. And now I'm like, Oh, this

(33:09):
is so nice. I feel so calm and peaceful. So
it's transformative. And I haven't even gone to the retreat yet. So
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like a little a mini ceremony for
you. And that's the whole thing. Like, I

(33:29):
really think. about those Chinese
myths from back in the day where you have the old wise like
martial arts teacher or whatever. And it's like, you
know, if you hike up the huge mountain and ask to be his
student, he'll turn you down. And so it's only the students who will hike
the mountains three times and get those first two

(33:50):
rejections, you know. And so usually there is
a filter. You have to have a filter. You can't take everyone. You
can only take serious students only. And I feel like
these medicines used
in these indigenous ways is
the paradigm for that. Like these plants will only work

(34:13):
with you if you're serious and have a certain level of discipline
because it takes a certain level of a disciplined mind
Have you had a lot of people that you tell them what the data is
and they're like, Oh, hell no, I'm not doing that. Or
will you let me come if I won't do all those things? And what do you say? Like, how

(34:36):
Well, I mean, it's pretty easy. If you don't
want to do that, then you don't want to do, you
know, I mean, we live in a society where we want the quick
fix. We want the easy way. And you know what? Like
every everyone wants the Ozempic. Yeah. and
your eat your vegetables and exercise, you

(34:59):
know, yeah, exactly. And so, but
it's, it's for those people, you know, it's for people
who really want to heal. And it's
not, it doesn't, you know, just like
any teacher that wants serious students, you don't
want bandaid, but

(35:20):
you want people who are willing to do the work. Because that
is what is required to actually heal.
And you're doing the work too. You're on the same diet, no? Or even a more
Yeah, I'm on, well, I'm not on a more strict one at
the moment, but my diet will change
in Peru and I'll drop quite a few pounds. So, you

(35:43):
know, afterwards that first see me on our integration zoom
sessions and I'll be shrinking, but you gain the
weight back pretty, pretty quickly, but I'm going to be doing this for
like a year. And when you're in isolation to
your. Drinking more often. And so you
don't eat dinner on nights that you drink because

(36:09):
Okay. And so you are not
eating as much and you're also not eating foods that
That taste any good. So there's no
salt, no sugar, no, no red meat,
no dairy. No caffeine, no alcohol, no

(36:30):
cannabis, no medicine at all, like
Western medicine, no salt. Did I say salt? No
sparkling water, no spices, no
oil. No citrus. No citrus. Oh, God,
that about killed me. I
Yeah. In many ways, we're being asked, you're eating what the

(36:52):
ancestors ate. Yeah. You know, pretty soon after they
Yeah. Somebody said, well, at least you get to cook food. They're not making you
eat raw. That could be, that could be worse. And the,
the maestros, are they also doing the same dieta? The

(37:14):
It's interesting, you know, the path. So
when you pour ayahuasca, you don't
pour until you've been training for like 10 years. Really?
And then it ends with the year long initiation that
I'm about to do. OK. But you
don't I think you don't really start serving on

(37:37):
like at that after that year, you're kind of apprenticing and
you're kind of a backup dancer to the your teacher in
the ceremonies. You start working in the space and figuring things out.
But you really need to be in
training for about 20 years before you're ready to, I'm
the person who's running the ceremony. I'm serving the ayahuasca. I'm

(38:01):
ultimately responsible for everything that happens in this space. So it's
not like, Oh, I heard about ketamine last year. I went to a
ketamine thing. Now I'm like, you know, doing ketamine sessions
It's really, really deep work by people who are, uh, who
have really been devoted to this. Yeah. for

(38:22):
a long time. And so, you know, this first 10 years are
grueling. And yeah, they're dieting all the time. You
know, they obviously take breaks. Like when they are
on diet, they do have to be quite strict. But when they're not on
diet, and they're doing ceremonies for other people, they don't have to
be as strict, because they're already super cleaned

(38:43):
out. Right. And again, they have built this relationship, and
just have this, like just such an
unbelievable, unbelievably impressive relationship
with these plants that like,
you know, they don't do this, but they could where they could, you know,
they could have like a piece of cake or some ice cream before ceremony

(39:08):
OK, if I did that, it would mess everything up.
Yeah. And so it's it's like that whole you
know, anytime you see an expert, it's like kids don't do this at home. Well, when
you start your kids, and they're not so they can do
that, right? Okay, got it. But but still, when

(39:29):
they're when they're in a process with a plant, they
do still have to follow the same rules. So, you
know, these healers live lives of celibacy. They
live lives of, you know, they live a salt free, sugar
free life for the most part. And it doesn't mean you
won't see them frequent it. you know, soda or something

(39:50):
every once in a while, but it's not when they're in
Right. They just probably have a much cleaner life in general.
I'm curious, what is the hardest thing for you to give up? And you're going
to be doing it for a year. Oh, Lordy. What
So what's interesting is I So

(40:12):
far, the hardest thing is moving to Oaxaca, Mexico. I
discovered that it has the best cacao I've ever had in
my life. So giving that up has so far been
the most brutal thing. But the
thing that I'm really giving up, I mean, it's interesting that,
you know, the indigenous, the Chiquibo, all

(40:33):
indigenous cultures in the Americas really have a reverence for
tobacco. And I've
dieted tobacco. It's not the same tobacco that
we have. But yeah, I
mean, I've been an on and off smoker for quite some time. And I know
the spirit of tobacco is like very, very strong in me. But

(40:54):
I haven't had it under control since my mother died. And
so for this dieta, for
this time, like this is when I'm quitting. Like, I'm not gonna like,
you know, freak out on everybody. At the retreat, I'll still be using Mapacho, but
even when I go to the jungle in Peru in isolation, I'm

(41:14):
gonna be totally giving up tobacco even in the plant
medicine kind of space. Like I'm not gonna use Mapacho. And
really getting in right relation with that
plant. It's a bit like, It's strange. It's
different than marijuana. Cause I, I gave up my, I can't believe I gave up
marijuana. Holy shit. That was an interesting process, but

(41:37):
I did it. But tobacco has been, uh, it's
been different for me. I've quit for
years and years at a time. Um,
but I started smoking again when I met my birth mother. And
then after nine months, I was like, okay, I'm going to let myself have
this for nine months. And then I quit. And

(42:00):
that was fine. So I quit for maybe like four
years. And then my mom, mom died.
And I started smoking because I just
I was traveling and I was like, oh, my God, this would be great. I
need this. And. And I

(42:20):
quit for a couple of weeks, so it's not the
nicotine like I'm like, the withdrawals aren't fun, but I can like
But something else is going on. And after,
yeah, I was like, wow, things got real dark.
And I was like, I don't think this is like, okay, I think

(42:40):
I need some like support to do this. And
so I was like, okay, well, when I go to Peru and I'm in
isolation and I have the support of
these other medicines that can detox you very easily and
I've got the shamans there that can fix my alignment with
tobacco and heal whatever problem the

(43:02):
tobacco is so clearly solving for me. That's
Okay. Yeah. And you're gonna leave our retreat in Costa Rica and
We'll be in isolation for two weeks. And then we're gonna stay
a couple extra days to hang out with them. It's such a trip to

(43:23):
because I mean, you're gonna meet these people and they come in and they got their shit. And
it's I've been to like the mall. with
my shaman. I
needed some stuff and he's like, yeah, I'll go with you. Okay. It
was just funny walking through the group. I mean, talk about

(43:43):
It's like seeing a teacher at the grocery store. Yeah. Like when you're a
And so that was just I don't know, that was so funny
to me. But yeah, so
we're going to be staying a little little longer. And, you
know, I'm going to see what what this initiation is
all about, because, I mean, as you know, the plants

(44:06):
already start working on you, like you haven't actually sat in
a maloca and drank ayahuasca, but like the energy is
around you, the consciousness coming to you. And,
and so this is true for dieta as well. Dieta
is both the diet that you do to prepare for an ayahuasca retreat,
but it is also a separate process of initiation with

(44:30):
additional plants. They're called master plants or teacher plants. Yeah.
And, and, you know, they call them like, you know, maestro plants.
So that translates to teacher, but also where
And so these plants have also
their own consciousness, but they're also like, you

(44:55):
They're stakeholders for ayahuasca. Fascinating. So
while you're leading our retreat, you you're kind of like
me right now, getting ready to your own retreat. That's right. And
it sounds like an intense initiation, which will start off
a whole year's worth of a dieta for you.

(45:16):
Yeah. And, and it's great because you know, most
people do this process again to pour ayahuasca process.
And that's not really my
I just got the call. For some reason,

(45:37):
the first time I ever heard about it. I just wanted to do
And you heard about this dieta, right? Like,
Well, I heard about it, like, at an ayahuasca retreat. Like,
oh, what's it? What's that? Like, what do you do? Wait, what do you do? What else

(46:00):
do you have to give up? That's crazy. You know, and,
and then I did a dieta. And
it was really powerful. It
found my birth mother. And, and
then at some point, I heard, you know, I learned a little bit more about like,

(46:20):
so how do these people do this? Like, what college do they
get? You know, like, what are they doing? And so I learned, yeah,
so I learned a little bit about that, where it's like, yeah, you do these things called diets,
where you work with a plant. and they give you
teachings and then you just keep doing that and you do
them for like longer and longer periods of time. And it's

(46:40):
not just building a relationship with the plants, but also building
a relationship with a particular healer because
it's, it's weird. It's kind of hard to explain, but
I think of it a little bit as like, um, if
you needed something from someone, but they're not your friend, there's somebody else's
friend. Okay, so you kind of so that friends just

(47:02):
like, Okay, yeah, like, I'll go vouch for you. And okay, they're,
they're really busy. But you know, if I talk to them, they'll, they'll
hook it up, you know, that's kind of the role that
Yeah, and the plants look fondly upon them and are just like, yeah, anyone you
want me to help out, I'll help them out. But, you know,

(47:23):
if you're just a person on the street, they're just like, what do you want from me?
Why am I supposed to be? You know, so that's
just I mean, that's not obviously exactly how it works,
but that's kind of the way I think about it. So
they're they're the people who hold that. and they're they're
vouching for you. So like co-signing. And

(47:44):
so if if you break the diet, if
Your reputation, they're kind of putting their own reputation on
the line by co-signing for you. So if you mess that up, it's like, oh,
But it's but it's energetic. And so
if you break the diet, they could get really sick. And

(48:10):
So depending on the plan and how serious it is. And so again, it's,
it's hard to conceptualize in
our, but it is how it works. And so not
only do you have to build relationships with the plants, but you also have to
build a relationship with a healer who's like, yes, you
are ready for this long of a diet

(48:32):
with this particular plant. Okay. And,
and yes, I agree to hold that contract for you
time because I believe you will make good and honor the contract. Okay.
So, you know, yeah, you can't just meet someone and be like, Hey, so
could I do a one year diet? Yeah, they see you.

(48:53):
It's like parents, you know, they see like, yeah, you're ready. Okay. Where's
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a lot of responsibility on
everybody's part to hold up your end of the deal and to like,
like, see somebody's potential and
really know somebody. They don't just say yes to everybody, I'm sure.

(49:14):
Yeah. And, you know, these, I, I haven't, I've
been working with these healers for, uh, maybe three
years and I've only done one diet with them, but
they knew that I had a history of other diets. They saw how strong
those diets were aerospace or like whatever
it is that they're able to do. They're able to

(49:35):
do. And so they held a diet for me that ended
up taking about six months. Wow. And so when
I asked them, Hey, can I do a year diet? See,
we believe you can do a year diet. Okay.
And so, but yeah, it's a lot of, it's all relational, which

(49:55):
is the exact opposite of how our culture works.
Yeah, it's not transactional or do this for me or it's
And building trust in yourself too, you know, cause I wouldn't do this if

(50:17):
Sure, sure, sure, sure. Well, that makes sense. Uh, I
admire you. I'm like counting the days, how many more days I have to do this? No
You had also mentioned, so you had talked about in the,
you know, in the preparation process for you that you
are, um, like you, you had mentioned like the phone and ketamine

(50:37):
as being part of the process. Like what other sort of big, like,
or mini ceremonies have you had because of this diet process?
Should we talk about the Joey one? Please. Yeah. Okay.
So, huh. Okay, so Mee Ok
said, I have something to tell you, but you have to
give me permission to share it. Like, oh, great. What

(51:00):
Yeah, I'm not going to jump out
Yeah, right. So I had to give permission. I'm like, yes, I'm in.
I'm doing it. I'm doing this thing. I might as well do all of the thing. That's
my attitude about it. Like, give it to me all.
I don't want to do it half-assed. I'll do the whole thing. And she said, the

(51:22):
plants think it would be a really good idea if you
gave up Joey as part of your dieta. And
I don't know if any of you have listened to this podcast or listen
to me talking about Joey. I mean, he's the whole reason I
do all of this work. You know, I'm I'm
super enmeshed with him, it turns out. And and also just

(51:45):
super. I just adore him and
want the best for him. And when she told me that, I
about threw up. I was like, what? And
about 10 seconds later, I'm like, see
that reaction of needing to throw up because of what's been asked of
you, that's why you need to do this. And I don't

(52:06):
know if it was the ketamine or just the ceremony had prepared
me for that moment, because I could have said, fuck off,
Mayo. That is ridiculous. What are you doing to me?
That's too hard. Not my real facilitator. Yes,
it could have gone pretty bad. You were probably ready to shield
your face because you knew how hard this would have

(52:29):
been for me. And I said, yes, okay, I'll
do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. If that's what's being
I want to interrupt you real quick because at first you were like, I need
to think about it. Oh, did I say that? But then you went
through a process because you checked in with other

(52:51):
So in my mind, I'm thinking, I'm wondering if they were just like, fuck yeah,
Yeah, they're your hugest cheerleader. Like, yes, Beth is
so, and I was so wound up and I didn't even realize it until
after I had quit Joey. And don't worry
anyone, I'm coming back to him. So don't worry. Yes. So
how did that process unfold? Yeah, I wanted to talk

(53:14):
to Joey and tell him, I didn't want to just ghost him or,
you know, do that, like that. I wanted it
to be pure and so he knew my intentions. And I
was concerned because adoptees, abandonment, that
is kind of a thing. I didn't want him to think that I was leaving him
or abandoning him in any way. So I told him. I

(53:36):
told him about the sparkling water. I said, Joe, you know how much I love sparkling water, right? And
you know that I'm giving it up for this because I'd already complained to him about that. But
that I'm doing it because they say
it's important to let go of certain things so
I can be more clear and more available for
when I go to this retreat. Well, they've asked

(53:57):
me now to give up you. And
my dear son was the most beautiful soul in
that moment. He's like, mom, oh, I'm going to cry. He's like, mom, I
respect what you're doing. And I see what you're doing. I see how hard you're
working. And I see how important this
is to you. And I'll be fine. I'll be OK. I

(54:19):
kind of wanted him to be a little bit of a wreck, but he said it
was OK. And he's like, no, mom, I get it.
He said he also said, I can't believe I'm talking to my mom about
doing psychedelics, but that's a whole different thing. But he
said, Mama, I got you and you need to take
this time. I think it'll be good for you. It'll be good for me, too. And he

(54:40):
even said, take as much time as you need. If you need more time
afterwards, I'll be here and just take
whatever time you need, mom." Like, oh my God. And I was crying and
crying and crying, but we ended it
such a beautiful way, knowing that it was temporary and
that it was a space that was created so

(55:01):
we could be better together. And he totally
Well, and the way it was done, though, was with such care,
because it's not like, oh, I'm gone, you can't reach me. There
was a plan in place. He had support. There
were there was just a buffer or, you

(55:22):
know, or a filter where he could contact your wife.
He could contact therapists. And it was
something where you were needed. They could do that. But it was just not
Yeah, and he and my wife have chatted several times.
She's taken him out. And I'm so grateful because when

(55:44):
it's the three of us, guess who's instigating everything? Me, always.
And Jan just kind of comes along for the ride. But now, guess
what? The two of them they're talking to each other, which
is beautiful. And that's a, if that's the only thing that happens
out of this, that's beautiful in its own. But
I anticipate, I mean, I've, I've experienced so much

(56:06):
healing just in that piece of it. I, Oh
my God, I didn't realize how anxious I was about him all the time. And
as soon as I was able to put him aside, knowing that he was taken care of
and knowing that we cut it off nice and clean with, with
loving intention. And he received that so beautifully. It's

(56:27):
like a football field size empty space
in my head now, where it was so filled with worry,
anxiety, trying to control, trying to do the right
thing, trying to be the perfect mom, all
the time. So now that

(56:48):
I realize I can have this much peace, now
Yeah. And that's so much, again, of the integration.
It's a, it's a lot like physical therapy where if you
have a bone that didn't heal, right. You go into surgery

(57:08):
and you re break it and they put it back where it's supposed to, you still have
to do the work, the outpatient work afterwards to make sure all
the muscles around it heal properly, to keep it stable, to keep
Yes, the natural tendency will be just to go back and do
it like I used to do. So I'm aware of that and I'm enjoying this
piece that I have. I'm kind of trying to memorize it and go,

(57:32):
okay, we want to keep this this way, but with Joey back in
my life. So I'm hoping that whatever
I receive at the retreat from the plants and from the experience
will help guide me and I know that the integration sessions will help me and
I'm going into this hoping and wanting
to learn. So I anticipate, I anticipate

(57:55):
I won't be perfect at it, but I anticipate it will be much
better. And he and I can build a better relationship of
two adults when I get back instead of an
Yeah. And also, you know, with the,
the space that has been created for you, I'm
sure there's been a space created for him on the other side. And part of that space

(58:19):
yes yeah and oh oh
yeah there's a me here shit there's a me There's
a me, ooh, mm. That
is something I have not spent a lot of time dealing with. I
suppose when the ketamine started is when that kind of began. But

(58:41):
much of my life has been around mothering or
taking care of other people, teaching, giving,
giving, giving, giving of myself and without much regard for
healing myself. So this is the assignment, I guess, for
Yeah, because ultimately, you know, the idea

(59:02):
would be that there's a part of you that has
Yes, yeah, my own attachment issues and my own.
There's something about the reason Joey and
I were smushed together in this lifetime. I don't
know exactly what it is. I don't know if I'll ever know, but he

(59:24):
and I resonate so deeply with that.
Even though I was not adopted, I was not literally abandoned, but there was
a lot of neglect, a lot of not being
understood, not being seen that I
totally get with Joey and I always tell
other parents, the best thing you can do is go do your own work. So,

(59:44):
okay, I'm doing, I got the assignment, I'm
going to do my own work. I'm going to do it. And I do hope that a
nice byproduct of it will be that Joey will be helped as
Yeah, I mean, do you have any updates on him that you're able
I don't think he'd mind me sharing that he went and voted. That's
huge. Oh, great. That's a huge, huge

(01:00:05):
accomplishment. Because first of all, his generation is completely disenfranchised
and feels disillusioned by the whole situation. And like,
why does any of it matter? So And he went, he
went to one of the early voting, like got on his bicycle or in
a car, I don't know what, went to a place and did the whole thing, researched
it. That's huge. Like, I don't even know

(01:00:27):
if anyone understands how huge that is for him. And I was so proud of
him and he was so excited and he called Jan, told her. And
so if that's one indicator of how well he's doing, I'm
a little sad that he's doing better without me. So
that's something I'm gonna have to work on. But
that's okay. Because if he feels better, and if this

(01:00:52):
Well, I mean, he's not without you, though. True.
and he knows I'm here and that I'm going to be here.
It's just temporary, right? Yeah. Yeah.
But I think it has opened up space for him to explore his
own healing. I think when we give them

(01:01:14):
an example, like these young adults or teens or even
little kids, you show them that we can still work on
ourselves. And then they go, oh, You can keep improving even when you're
56 years old. Okay, well then I guess I can keep working on my stuff too.
It's implicit or unconscious, but
I think it helps people when you are improving, they

(01:01:37):
will be inspired to do their own,
Yeah, I mean, children model their parents or
Yeah, that mirroring. If you want

(01:01:58):
to improve as a musician, you go play with better musicians, right? You
just automatically just reach further when you're with people
that are working harder. Or if you want to
eat better, you go hang out with your friends that are eating healthier,
right? It's like that. We just naturally become

(01:02:19):
you know, we're, we're kind of pack animals and
yeah, we're tribal in a sense.
And we are, we have our own spirits and
we need to have authenticity and be our
authentic selves, but we also really need to belong.

(01:02:39):
And so, excuse me, so much of that
is finding the
people and the animals and
the vibes that our authentic
self. Sort of. Belongs
to. And spiritually and energetically

(01:03:05):
so that we don't have to sacrifice so
much of who we are in
Hmm. Amazing. You told me that as
my energy shifts, I will draw different types of people toward me.
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like

(01:03:28):
this Mobius strip, right? Where the
more people pleasing you are, the less
of you is seen. So the attachments are
always to this mask. People
in your life. you know, your sense of belonging is that
your mask belongs, you

(01:03:49):
know, and, and vibes with certain people. And
when you're yourself, you save yourself a lot of
time because I don't really into
who you are, you know, that pretty quick and
you can move on. And it's not that they're bad or you're whatever, it's just

(01:04:12):
You know, when you adapt, pretend you're on
a frequency that you're not, then, um,
yeah. So it's, you know, the more, so it's this balance of
authenticity because you always are a sack of, you know, you can't just, otherwise
you'd just be like a narcissist, right? You would just be like, let me show
all the time. Um, so it's about that. It's

(01:04:34):
really about relationality and reciprocity. Mm. So
much of that is going to be practice. I mean, that's another thing about like, you
know, being the leader or whatever, like in a way I kind of see myself
as like the coordinator who
coordinated in a way based on a vision that I had. Um,
and I'm ultimately, you know, responsible, but at

(01:04:56):
the same time, it's, it's
know, I learned from everybody else's process, get
a little bit more of a bird's eye view. I mean, that's sort of, you
kind of get more trends, like if I, you know, when you see different clients,
and, you know, certain themes and patterns will come up, and you're kind of,

(01:05:19):
it's kind of like a doctor, you know, you might be like, man, I don't know why I'm
so sick. And then you go and see the doctor. And they're like, Oh, yeah, that's going around. Right?
They've seen it. Yeah, so it's like a little
bit, you're not on the ground, you're like a little bit, you know, up on the hill. So
you kind of see a little bit more of the field, your
personal experience. And so yeah,

(01:05:41):
so it's been interesting to kind of get a more contextual look
at things. But what have you thought about the
preparation process in general, just because we've had two
sessions now, or Tanya and I have hopped on and been like,
Hey, guys, this is a dieta. And this is what we're
doing. And this is why we're asking you to do all this hard stuff. And

(01:06:03):
then we've also, we just did a session preparing
Yeah. No, it's been great because you know,
it is way outside of most of our comfort zones and,
and you all are, are being very clear. You're not beating
around the bush about what you're asking us to do. It's very clear, which

(01:06:23):
I appreciate and creating a community
already before we even get there. Spending time with us. I
don't think that normally happens with Sultana, right? They just show up and then you're
with a bunch of people. So. And we all have a WhatsApp group too. You're
not in it, but you know about it, I think. Yeah, you
guys need to join. We're all like, ah, I wish I had salt. And

(01:06:47):
I keep losing weight, stuff like that. And yeah,
so it's really, I feel really, really lucky to be doing this. And
the way, I mean, this is all I know, but this is kind of amazing, the
way you're putting this together. And I'm so appreciative. I
wonder if you... God, I hope you will eventually do
this for adoptees. Do you see that happening? Just

(01:07:10):
You know, I think that that would be really
beautiful. There are certain retreats that I would love
to see happen for different groups of people. All
BIPOC or all queer or all... Yeah, something like that.
But again, you need the numbers. But
like, this is not an inexpensive thing and it is always like

(01:07:33):
a financial risk to do. Because people,
you know, lead their lives and they have to be paid and all of that stuff. So,
you know, for the next retreat, you know, one of the things is I
try to get some like secured signups or
committing kind of thing. And I'm

(01:07:53):
going to see what the group size feels like. two, because
Sultara has two locations. One of them has
less beds, so it'd be less people that we would need to bring
and fill up. Tanya and I are going to feel out the difference between a
more intimate group. This time we have 14 coming. And
that feels good, you know, but at the location that we're at,

(01:08:16):
we had wanted 19. Okay. when
we moved all the numbers around and stuff. But we could have
potentially done 20. I mean, one of the issues for this retreat was
that the way that we're holding the container is
that it just doesn't make sense for
couples or family members to come together. Friends could

(01:08:39):
because their energy isn't merged and their lives aren't
intertwined in that root chakra way.
Yeah, like you won't even let me journal to Jan. But imagine
if I went with Jan, my mind would be half the time with her and
making sure she's OK. And how's your experience? It

(01:09:01):
would be impossible for me to focus on myself if I brought her
with me or Joey. God, forget it. No way.
Yeah. So it's not to say that you should never go
to an ayahuasca retreat with a family member. That's I've seen
people do really beautiful relational healing. So, I
mean, that might be a retreat that I offer in like a couple's

(01:09:22):
retreat. I mean, probably not a couple's, but like a family, you know, family intentionally. Yeah.
Because, you know, I mean, for example, I was at an ayahuasca retreat where,
um, you know, a family member was lost to suicide and
a parent and their child came. Yeah,
to process the loss of that child and sibling as

(01:09:44):
a family. And so, you know, I don't want to say that
that that's like the wrong way to do it. It's just that the way
this one that, you know, for the vision of this retreat and
thinking of it in terms of really going
deep and and also that's sort of
the path that the Shipibo have. I mean, Like

(01:10:08):
Tonya and I aren't going to be able, we're not allowed to make like eye contact,
you know, with each other when we could. I mean, there
will be times because, you know, if I can't communicate adequately in
Spanish, we'll need to pull her out of hibernation, but you
know, we're not going to be socializing. We are not going to be like,
we are going to be as much in our own energetic

(01:10:29):
and psychic space as possible. So you have silent meals,
you're not looking at each other. Um, you're,
you're in silence. You know, it's sort of like, it's kind
of like a mixture of a silent meditation retreat and
That's a lot. That's a lot. And I love that you're not asking

(01:10:52):
us to do anything that you aren't doing and
That's a big difference with Western medicine. No, because
I think about, for example, cancer and chemo. And
when you look at the numbers and the like
the, you know, when they send out surveys, like 93% of

(01:11:17):
And I'm like, so how is that not like snake oil sales?
So, you know, so that's the thing. And that's one reason
that I feel like I've been able to go as far with
the people as possible because I'm doing, you
know, a year long diet. They've done year long diets. Some of them have
done 18 months. And so, yeah,

(01:11:39):
I mean, and all of them have pretty much all of them have brought themselves back
from the dead as well. It's like my story in the
West is kind of like, wow, she couldn't walk and blah. And
then it's just like, yeah, that's like every shaman. What
are you what's the big deal, you know? Wow. Yeah.
So the way that's kind of like the shaman's journey or whatever or

(01:12:01):
can be. Yeah. Yeah. And so
when they're asking me to do these hard things, I know that
they've done them to like the nth level. And
when I'm talking with them, they're able to talk to me
through experience and with compassion,
because they're like, man, I remember just starting out and just like, yeah, it was hard.

(01:12:24):
It was hard to give up salt, like, oh, you know, because by
this time, it's like, you're just, you do get used to things like we
adapt. Like we're still here as a species because
we adapt, good and bad. We adapt. And
so, you know, it's just like, oh, I'm going on a diet again. I'm
giving up these things again. But also at this point, you're

(01:12:45):
a little bit more skilled. So you're not like, oh God, what
You've got- Yeah, the way I am like, what? Yeah,
but even I am getting kind of used to it. The
salt has been really hard, but I can imagine the
more you do these things, you get used to it and you realize you're not going
to die because you don't have salt, and things do start tasting

(01:13:07):
different. And it's such
a beautiful lived experience. studying
books to get this knowledge, you're doing things, embodying
things and learning from others who have also embodied these
things. That's really beautiful and it's so not

(01:13:28):
Well, and as an adult, it's really special
because I get to be part of a lineage. I
never thought of that. Yeah. And it's not like, I
mean, it's not like I'm some like, Shipibo person or anything.
But, you know, these rituals, and

(01:13:49):
the fact that they stretch back into like time in
They're they're kind of letting you into their family in a way. Right?
And yeah, allowing you to learn these secrets.
it is protected knowledge that is shared with

(01:14:11):
people who can understand it. You know, it's not like you sit
down with a five year old and, you know, turn on the 10 o'clock news
Yeah. So you like you, you, again, you
meet people where they are and with these,
with these healers, um, you know, cause

(01:14:32):
you, you see things and you experience things and they're so magical. And
but they should be closely guarded and like it at every turn. I'm like, yeah,
this maybe this isn't knowledge for me to have.
But I think they also work with they also really they
practice what they what we preach, what we all preach is trust the plants.
And so it's kind of like I heard. I mean, I don't have kids. I

(01:14:54):
don't plan on having them. But I've heard that like if the kid is
old enough to ask the question, they're old enough to get an answer. It
doesn't mean, you know, like I said, you need to put on it. Yeah. but
give them some sort of answer that's like appropriate to where they are. And so
in a similar way, I feel like in the ceremonies, the
plants will show you things because that's know what

(01:15:19):
I think that's why I'm not afraid. Some people are like, aren't you afraid? Like,
what if something happens? And I feel like, no, from my
experience with ketamine and psilocybin and just working with you,
I feel like I won't be asked to do something that I
am not ready for. I
think my brain will filter it out or the spirit or whatever it is, I

(01:15:40):
don't even know what it is, will filter out and give me the things that
I can handle and I'll be well supported kind of
emotionally and physically at Sultara and
Yeah. In our talk, we had talked a
little bit about surrender and so much

(01:16:01):
on this path is about surrender. It's letting parts
of the ego die. And I, you know, and they use
the symbol or the metaphor
of the shape snake shedding its skin. Oh, yeah. And
I think about that because I'm like, that has to
be uncomfortable. Like that has to be a

(01:16:22):
process. And, you know, the snake has
to be intentional about it with the way it moves to be able to wiggle out
of that thing. And. You
know, the path to surrender from fear Like
Yeah. Yeah. And if you didn't grow up with a

(01:16:44):
lot of trust, it doesn't come real naturally for a lot of people.
Right. Natural for most
of us. I mean, we live in a society, like you said, you don't even know if
you'll have a country to go back to. Like we live in a context,
um, in an unpredictable world, that's kind of run by maniacs.
And so it is really, really hard to trust

(01:17:06):
life. and to feel protected. And
we are just so disembodied. And
that is something that's really interesting about the plants is
that there is this settling that you

(01:17:27):
It's amazing what
Fascinating. Yeah, it is. This has been an amazing experience
and I haven't even gone yet. So I feel like I've already got my
money's worth and I haven't even done the thing yet that I signed

(01:17:48):
up to do. It's just been an incredible experience. I
hope that we will sit down again and do a part two
of this. and about how it
went for everyone, for both you and me, from our both
perspectives, your first time leading a retreat, my
first time going, and all

(01:18:12):
Yeah. When we're both on the other side of things
and a little bit more settled. Yeah.
I wondered if you wanted to talk about the medicine circles at all in this or
Sure. Yeah. I mean, as we mentioned so much
about this work, like at
least 50% of this work is integration. And

(01:18:37):
like, yeah, it's important to go to class, but like, it's the homework, it's the you
doing the work alone, toiling with yourself to make it
stick, to find the way that you make
it stick. find your own process and
have everything make sense for you and the way you can remember things and whatever.

(01:18:59):
However, it it's kind of like when I went
back to grad school, there's no book out there
to say like, hey, adult person with like a totally unique
situation. This is how you move everything around to
go to somehow go to grad school. Right.
So like, you know, the medicines, the medicine, but you

(01:19:22):
still have to go back and figure out your life. Oh,
other, you know, you just that just takes work. And
so, yeah, the medicine circles that we're doing,
we've done, we've been building an adoptee Medicine
community, which has been really beautiful just different people who

(01:19:42):
have been connecting to these different spaces or even people who haven't had
Yeah, wanting to do something deeper or. willing
to, willing to explore. So I can't even go to
those. I just go and open up the room and say, bye-bye. And you,
you guys do magic in there. Yeah. So

(01:20:03):
if any of you that are listening have, have, you know, tried
plant medicine, have, have had transformative experiences with plant medicine
or even breath work or therapy, like
any sort of deep personal growth, And you just want
to process it with other people who understand the adoption world,
because most plant medicine spaces are not going to be filled with

(01:20:24):
adoptees. So there is that special way that
adoptees see things and each person in the adoption constellation sees
Yeah, I mean, it's really for people who are working on themselves.
However that looks for them. Yeah, because we don't we don't just come
and share. It's a forward movement. productive,

(01:20:44):
even, you know, sometimes sharing can be
part of the healing, just to be able to share
in the space with other adoptees. But, you
know, the idea is that you come in a
certain, you know, from a certain place. And

(01:21:06):
Ah, so you do, you do coaching basically and
guiding, not necessarily every single person that comes,
but you take several people and we all learn from
Yeah. And we also learn really how to be
compassionate witnesses or other

(01:21:27):
people and to be, to stay in
our bodies and off our phones. You
know, to embrace triggers and just watch ourselves,
to observe ourselves, and to also give
our hearts to others or have our hearts open for

(01:21:49):
And I should say, you know, if adoptive parents are listening, I would
love to pull together a group of adoptive parents who are willing to do this work together.
That'd be amazing. So let me know if you're
interested. We'll pull a group together. We just need ideally six,
six people in a group and then we'll go. So
just let us know what y'all are looking for, what combination

(01:22:15):
Yeah, because one of the things that I think about often is
that there's, I was telling a friend today, there's kind
of this double helix that I see, where there's
that, that truth, like these deep spiritual truths
that in the center of our heart, we're all the same person. And
yet we're all here to have a differentiated, diverse, embodied

(01:22:38):
experience, and to practice compassion for
other. And that happens
from the center of our hearts. What I find is
that, you know, however different story
or whatever different gender or race or background, that there
is this, there are these things that, that

(01:23:05):
ring true. You know, you could you could watch a
story about some, you know, Nigerian person who grew
up in a village and just feel like they're all
there. You get it. They get you, you know, and even
though your lives couldn't look any different or your skin couldn't look any different.
And for me, I find that

(01:23:27):
in the root of childism. which is
the, uh, a black psychologist at Harvard coined
it in the sixties. And the idea was
that being a child is the most disenfranchising
thing in the world. And, you know, particularly in
our culture and then the further back in history, it doesn't, it just gets worse and

(01:23:48):
worse and worse. Yeah. Unless you're in a, you know, indigenous community
or something like that. But for the most part, what
he claims in which I think is really interesting is
that every form of bigotry is
based from the initial paradigm of childism. You
know, like children aren't to be seen or heard, sound familiar,

(01:24:11):
normalize groups, right? So
when I look at adoptive parents and, you know, one reason
that I would hope to be able to begin to integrate the
space or that I'd be so happy to work with adoptive parents is that when
you're talking to a parent, It's kind of like when I
think about old people, it's like when you're talking to a parent, you're also talking

(01:24:33):
to a child. Like you're also talking to someone who was a
child. And it's the same thing when I think about old people. They're
Yeah. And what wounds do we as adoptive parents have in
our childhood that, I don't know, caused
us to adopt or caused us to try to save somebody

(01:24:55):
else or try to fix somebody else? What
is that all about? And can we hold space for all
of that while navigating raising our kids
and whatever is going on with our kids? It's
Yeah. And that's why the complexity is so important. You
were that child and you are that parent. And so to

(01:25:17):
be able to hold both and heal both, to
me, that's where it's at. And again, it's through observation
and experience. I've just seen, it's
like what you were talking about with Joey, healing is
contagious. And yeah, when you
work on yourself, you can't help but heal others around

(01:25:43):
Well, I feel so honored. I'm glad you finally replied
to my email because when,
you know, I read your story in The Myth of Normal and like, hey,
that's an adoptee, a translational adoptee. I've got to get her on. And I'm
glad that we eventually connected because now look at what we're doing.
And we are teaming up, collaborating for these big

(01:26:06):
picture things happening in the adoption community. And
I'm just I feel so grateful. And I feel like there's so
much potential for healing in our community between
constellation members, amongst each branch of the constellation. There's
so much that can be done with plants and just with people that
are willing to go deeper, you know, just willing

(01:26:27):
to talk about this stuff without throwing shit at each other or
without, you know, just to see each other as
Yeah. And also to bring a deeper sense of complexity
to the space too, because we talk about, you know, adoptive parents
like they're over here and adoptees like they're over here. Well,

(01:26:47):
guess what? Sometimes they're the same person. You know, a lot of adoptees
adopt children. And so, you know, and so I
think that it's yeah I just think there's so much to
be shared that we don't know and whenever
I talk to different adoptees I'm just like blown away by how
different the stories are and recognizing my privilege because

(01:27:10):
there are a lot of Korean adoptees and so I do have options
for a community in that respect that I'm
like the top cast right if they're such a thing, right,
We've got the market share. We own, you know, 1% of
this company. Look at you. Yeah,

(01:27:33):
right. But yeah, I think, you know, I really look forward to
just seeing what happens and seeing how the
medicine works with people and also for adoptees to
or for people in the adoption constellation. It is a very specific thing. But
to get even deeper into how it connects with all

(01:27:53):
humanity because blood is blood, but there's, there's
so much more to connection and bonding and
It's very complex. Well, I'm very much looking forward to
the retreat, and I'm looking forward to whatever is
going to be thrown my way. I'm going to just try to think

(01:28:16):
of them all as gifts, even if they're really hard. And I
know that some of it's going to be hard. I just know that there's going to be some hard stuff. But
I'm going to just be open and accepting, and we're
going to just keep on going. And we'll see
you on the other side, I guess. Is
there anything else you want to say? Nope, I'm good. Okay. Well,

(01:28:37):
thank you for doing this and we'll catch you all in part two. If
you made it all the way through that extra long, extra special episode, thank you. Thank
you for listening. I hope you learned something new or maybe
understand it. or
your curiosity was piqued about this plant medicine stuff. We

(01:29:01):
wanted to remind you that December 22nd is Our
next medicine circle for adoptees. So
if you're an adoptee who's experienced plat medicine or other deep healing, that
is the next time to get. In a group with me oak to

(01:29:22):
process and integrate what you've learned in anyone
is, uh, available to meet up with me oak
one-on-one. She's the coach and you can find her
contact information in the show notes. Her
website is called compassionate. No, holdingcompassionate.space, and
I'll link that in the notes below. So you can get a hold of Mee Oke anytime, or

(01:29:44):
maybe we'll see you on December 22nd for our
next Medicine Circle. Stay in touch with Unraveling Adoption by
finding our website, unravelingadoption.com, join our
mailing list there, and get involved and engaged
in all the activities and insights and information that we
offer. Thank you very much for listening, everyone. Stay

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The Plants Are Calling for the Adoption Constellation with Mee Ok Icaro - Ep 171

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Plants Are Calling for the Adoption Constellation with Mee Ok Icaro - Ep 171