"The most healing thing for me now has been the support of other adoptees." -- Dave Sanchez-Brown
Read the transcript of this episode here: https://app.swellai.com/t/tp_01JJD8EF1R7VJ6J0V5GXRWXJY4
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EPISODE SUMMARY:
In this episode of Unraveling Adoption, I had the privilege of speaking with Dave Sanchez-Brown, an adoptee who has bravely navigated the complexities of adoption, mental health struggles, and addiction.
Dave shared his adoption story, which took a significant turn after he read Dani Shapiro's memoir Inheritance. Inspired, he decided to take a DNA test, leading him to uncover his biological family and the trauma associated with his past. He discussed the overwhelming emotions that surfaced as he connected with his roots, including the discovery of a family history marked by addiction.
Throughout our conversation, Dave highlighted the importance of community and peer support in his recovery journey. He emphasized that finding others who share similar experiences has been more therapeutic than traditional therapy. We also touched on the stigma surrounding addiction and mental health, and how society often lacks empathy for those struggling.
As we wrapped up, Dave offered valuable advice for adoptive parents, urging them to be aware of their children's emotional needs and the potential for feelings of alienation. He encouraged parents to seek their own healing to better support their kids.
This episode is a powerful reminder of the resilience of the human spirit and the importance of connection in healing. I hope Dave's story inspires listeners to seek support and understanding, whether they are adoptees, adoptive parents, or anyone affected by mental health challenges. Thank you for joining us, and remember to stay safe and connected.
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📘Get our new book Adoption and Suicidality: amazon.com/Adoption-Suicidality-Healthcare-Professionals-Unraveling/dp/B0DCBCTSLL
📆 Community Calendar: UnravelingAdoption.com/Calendar
✨Healing the Adoption Constellation database: UnravelingAdoption.com/Healing
💌Sign up for our Unraveling Adoption email list: http://eepurl.com/hVIAVX
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RESOURCES:
Dave’s information:
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Follow Dave as The Rebellious Adoptee on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/therebelliousadoptee
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And find him as The Rebellious Adoptee on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therebelliousadoptee/
Other resources mentioned in this episode:
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Dani Shapiro’s memoir Inheritance: https://www.amazon.com/Inheritance-Memoir-Genealogy-Paternity-Love/dp/0525434038
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DNA Detectives Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/DNADetectives/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hey there, welcome to Unraveling Adoption. Before we get to this week's episode,
I wanted to let you know about an amazing event we're hosting on February 8th,
2025. It's going to be a hybrid event, so you can join us online
or in person in Seal Beach, California. It's
called Adoption Healing Quest and it will involve
(00:24):
10 practitioners from the Healing the Adoption Constellation database presenting
interactive workshops about different healing modalities that
will add tools to your toolkit to help you deal with
adoption trauma. I really hope you can join us or help
us spread the word. There's a 20% discount link in
the show notes, and that discount is good through the end of January. So
(00:46):
hop on it, help us spread the word, and I hope to see you there, Adoption
Healing Quest, on February 8th. And now, enjoy
this episode. Welcome
to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to
delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Syberson.
I'm an adoptive mom of a creative and insightful young adult son,
(01:08):
Joey, who has struggled for the last several years with suicidality and
addiction. I'm walking beside him while working on my own personal
growth and healing. Joey and I are committed to helping anyone impacted
by adoption, and we want to help the general public understand adoption's
complexities better too. I'm also a certified coach helping seekers
who want to move their lives forward. Well, today's guest, Dave
(01:30):
Sanchez-Brown, is an adoptee who has also struggled with
suicidality and addiction. Joey and I have a
goal of destigmatizing addiction and mental illness, and we also love
highlighting adoptive voices that we don't typically hear from as often.
So the fact that Dave is a gay man makes me want to give him an even louder voice
to get his story out there. Dave lives in San Jose in Northern California,
(01:51):
and he's worked hard for the last decade or so on his recovery from
meth and also on his coming out of the adoption fog.
He's found ways to unpack his trauma and build community. His
story will inspire you and give you hope for yourself or anyone you
know who might be on the struggle bus right now. Welcome to
(02:12):
Yeah. Well, whenever I have an adoptee on, I just always
start by giving them an opportunity to share their adoption story. What
I'm going to give you little clips of it. So in the summer
of 2019, I read Danny Shapiro's Inheritance.
And it was about a woman who never felt quite
(02:33):
sure where she fit into their family because she
was the only blonde haired, blue eyed kid out
of this whole extended family. So her
husband suggested she take a DNA test and she sends away,
gets a kid. And then finally she does it
and discovers that she was donor conceived. And
(02:54):
so she did not know. And then it follows the
story of her developing a relationship with her donor
father. Her father had already passed away before she
went down this road. In fact, he died in an accident with
her mother. The mother survived, but the dad passed
away. So I did that too. I sent
(03:15):
away for a couple of different kits and, you
know, they would sit on my desk for six months and
then I would just throw it away. And then finally, after I read her
book, I said, okay, this is it. I'm going to do it. So
I sent away for the kit and then did a
spit in the vial, got the results back in six months. And that
(03:36):
actually was kind of a traumatic event, opening up this
page displaying all of your blood relatives.
And there were hundreds of people. And I knew my mother's
last name. So one side was full of
carols. And honestly, I didn't put everything
together because I was so overwhelmed by all this information. I
(04:00):
mean, I froze. I didn't really know what to do. Then
I started sending off emails to people hoping to
find, are you my mother? Are you my father? Because
I have two first cousins. So I wasn't quite sure which
was which. One was for my father, one was for
(04:21):
I did. So let me give a little plug out for Search
Angels. These are volunteer genealogists who
put in their time and love to
help people, reconnect people. So I was
so overwhelmed. I just needed help. So I was in a group called
DNA Detectives and I asked if there was anyone
(04:42):
in the group that could help me because I And
then this woman emailed me later in the day, and
she did. And within two weeks, she was
able to put together my paternal and maternal family
trees. And then I was
able to go back eight generations just from that information, you
(05:04):
know, based on public records, based on other
family trees. And, you know, when people get
messages from a stranger, I mean, you
Why are you messaging me? So finally, one of
my first cousins reached out to me because I was born
in Norfolk, Virginia, and she was in Richmond, Virginia. And
(05:28):
she said, can you send me some pictures of you at
different stages of your life? OK, I did. And
then in return, she sent pictures of her uncle,
who is my father. OK. So, yeah, it was like,
what? And when I saw his picture, I was
so overwhelmed. I wanted to cry, but nothing
(05:51):
would come out because my mother said, you'll never find him.
So I wasn't even sure about contacting him, but I
mean, I never actually, honestly, I never meant to get emotionally
involved with any of this stuff. I guess what I had hoped to accomplish
was seeing a picture of my father, seeing a picture of my mother,
(06:14):
finding out some rudimentary family information because I
was a historical buff, which I did. I found a
lot of information. And then I discovered I had three sisters, new
half-sisters. Oh, wow. And two of them are twins. And
then there's a third one, and they have all, well, particularly
one of the sisters struggled with addiction. And
(06:37):
then I found out from my cousin, she said, well, it's a
I call it genteel addiction because they were well respected.
But you know, at the time in the fifties and forties, people didn't
(07:03):
At work. Yeah, that's right. The martini lunches and all that. So
Yes, that's my genetic history. And then
I guess he died from what they call wet brain or just was
(07:28):
Yeah, so you know about taking a DNA test, you
have to be prepared to accept anything. You're going
to find out things about your birth parents that you wish
you hadn't. You'll find out, let me just
say this, I know where my crazy gene comes from. I
never made that connection. Well, I didn't have that information. I knew nothing
(07:53):
And how was your adoptive family? Were they supportive of your mental health struggles
I actually waited until after my parents died before I did it.
My adoptive brother had died. So my sister was, yeah, she
I would like to know. I wanted to know. I was interested in following
your story. I mean, you know, we're both in our 60s. So
(08:16):
fast forward to my teen years. You know, I don't want to get into
when my parents told me adopted because I felt like
How old were you when they told you you were adopted? Eight. Ooh,
So I was rather old and I'd already bonded
with them. So I felt like, whoa, what?
(08:40):
And I was, you know, I was upset. I got really angry. I
said that we have to go look for her. And my mother got
right in my face and screamed, I'm your mother, you self-centered
Oh no, that hurts me so bad. I'm so
(09:00):
Yeah. So, you know, my family said I always
rejected them, but they rejected me. And my
answer was to withdraw. And I guess my
first drug of choice, I guess, would be called sleep because
I would come home from school. I was a bully target
(09:21):
Okay. Yeah. Sleeping works really well. It just knocks everything
Well, you know, I was literally in so much pain. I just wanted
Oh gosh, 17. Yeah.
(09:41):
Well, right about that time, I started getting into my dad's alcohol.
And I was particularly fond of anything that would bring
You know, opiates and barbiturates that I've found through
unsavory characters. So yeah, I ended up in a
psychiatric hospital. And that was my first
(10:04):
trip to hell, literally. Yeah, yeah.
Those places are, they're horrible. The nursing
staff is, they're just burnt out. But
I knew enough not to go crazy or else I
was afraid of a straight jacket or, you know, being
dumped in a padded room or, and then I manipulated
(10:26):
Okay. Yeah, that sounds familiar. My son also had horrible
experiences at many different hospitals and they never helped him
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, the burnout, understandably, probably
of the staff and just not very many caring people there.
(10:47):
So that's, that's really tough. And my son also kind of
He just was super smart like that. So I hear that. That reminds
me of my son a lot. Oh, that sounds really rough. But it
sounded like for you, the suicidality and the drugs and
(11:07):
You know, actually, on thinking back, I think that
Because I just wanted to be gone and I did not want to
Yeah. When we had our talk earlier,
you talked about taking a bunch of aspirin at
(11:30):
Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. And actually, that happened when
Yeah. I said, I'm going to kill myself. My mother said,
don't act like a girl. And I went upstairs and
got into the medicine cabinet, got out the aspirin, just swallowed
(11:56):
Well, I think that they would have got me help, like psychiatric help,
I went to the emergency room and, you know, I
More angry than, you know, dumbfounded why I would do
(12:17):
They didn't say, Oh God, you must be hurting. You just tried to kill yourself. What can we
Well, my father was a military guy. He
was a commander in the Navy. So we ate
our meals squarely, which means you go down, you
(12:41):
So gave me a lecture about this isn't what boys do.
You need to grow up. You need to stop being dramatic. You need to
stop. Oh, I know you'll like this attention seeking.
No, I don't really see any point in living at eight years old because
(13:03):
Yeah, yeah, there's a huge disconnect there. And you you were feeling
it and you were told to not have any feelings. Don't
be dramatic. You're just seeking attention. Oh, that
is like the worst thing to tell somebody in that kind of
struggle. I'm kind of shocked that you survived that childhood. That sounds
really, really horrible. And what do you think helped
(13:27):
Well, they kept us active. We're on Boy Scouts and Cub
Scout. Very regimented. Dance classes, tennis
club. So everything was regimented. Everything
was... And then on weekends we had to help my father do work
around the house because he was an engineer and
he was kind of a do-it-yourself guy. There was really
(13:49):
never really any downtime. Like everything
was go, go, this is scheduled, this is scheduled. No, you can't
quit. You know, you have to keep going. And some
of it I liked. There were some other kids that I really, you know, bonded with
and they helped me survive, actually. I mean, I didn't go
into detail about what I was doing or how I hated myself.
(14:12):
But it seemed like there were other misfits like I
Like it was like Left Troop, that old sitcom
They do. And it's good because I felt, I
(14:33):
I felt like I have other kids that liked me and I liked them.
So anyway, I left home towards the
end of the 70s and moved to San Francisco. And
there were a number of reasons, you know, I had decided to come
You know, when I was 19 or
(14:55):
20. And my parents were livid. Well,
my mother said, you're just going to live a very lonely life. Good
luck. My dad wouldn't even acknowledge it.
And then I went there and, you know, was able to be myself.
I was able to embrace the, you
know, the quirkiness, the eccentricity, the
(15:17):
arty side of Nitti. And those were my friends
Yeah, that was the place to be. I'm thinking Did
Oh, yeah. I saw him on a platform a couple of times. People
absolutely dismissed him. Like they thought he was a crackpot.
(15:40):
And I think he ran for office a couple of times and lost, but he finally
won. Yeah. And I don't know what it was about
him, like what I call the A-gays, the ones that are very secure and
have a lot of money. And they didn't like him because they thought
he was tacky or too
out there. That's it, too out there. And
(16:02):
they didn't want to be associated with that. Like, oh, no, people
are going to think we're like that, like that. Nobody wants to be like
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, in the gay community, I bet,
I notice this now still, but I bet then in the
70s, 80s, that drugs and alcohol were just rampant
in the gay community. Yeah, I bet it would be hard to be sober there.
(16:31):
Well, crystal meth. Although I didn't really get developed
with it at that time because I finished
college at the University of San Francisco and I
got a job at the University of California in San Francisco. So
I had a pretty demanding job where
(16:56):
If I couldn't pay the rent or pay my bills, I couldn't go
to my parents for practical reasons.
And then I met somebody in San Francisco when
I was 28 and we moved to LA. And it
was new life. And I honestly didn't even think
about suicide or drugs during
(17:18):
that time. I felt like my life was so full and
I made some really great friends. And I felt like, you
know, being in L.A. when you're 20s and, you
know, it was it was fun. It was free. Yeah.
You know, I didn't have any reason to be. And
I forgot about all those past traumas, all those And
(17:40):
then my partner died suddenly from AIDS.
Actually, that's what sent me. He died in 1992. And then
that set me off on a tailspin that lasted
(18:01):
Well, you know, honestly, what do I have to lose? Because
there's no cure. I'll be dead in a couple of years. And you
know what? I mean, nobody is more surprised than I am that
I'm still alive. because I
literally did everything after finding that out,
diagnosed, and I was like, okay, the party's on.
(18:25):
And most of my friends were in that apocalypse mood.
Like, yeah, no, you can do whatever you want. I
went on, actually, I had some of the infections that
That lasted about six years, because during that
time, the drugs came out, and so I had to clean up.
(18:49):
But the whole time, I mean, yes, I felt secure with
some of these groups, and I also felt like there was this huge chunk
of me missing. And when my friends would talk about
their families and their parents, I would feel left
And so what I started doing is just creating a fictitious family.
(19:10):
Oh, okay. You just made one up and that made it easier at
Everything was super great and they were all in San Diego
and we're really close, which was not
the truth. And the mode that I grew up in was about as
middle class Southern California as you could get. I mean, two
(19:31):
parents, mom and a dad, and we went to church
And they were Republicans. Well, back when they were more like Democrats.
Well, so you created your own community and your own fictitious
I had to create my own family, just like I had to create my
(19:53):
own parents, my own birth parents in
But yeah, in my mind, I was really with them and
I wanted to protect this artificial life to people. Because
I was so unhappy that I thought, well, I'll
just tell this story enough times and people might believe
(20:19):
Well, I did. And I forgot about their adoption
I was going to ask if in the gay community, did anyone, were there
Well, that's interesting you say that. Well, I have three adopted
friends. We were all struggling with drugs and addiction. Oh,
(20:41):
And did you talk about adoption and go, God, this... You know, we, I
Oh, we all thought it was interesting that we were adopted, but we never thought
like, Oh, maybe there's some sort of connection. Yeah,
you didn't do that shit. You're
looking to feel connected to people because it
(21:02):
is the only way that you can And it's all artificial,
but in my head, I, you know, convinced myself that it
And then, you know, I started doing a little bit of math
around 2013. OK. I moved
in with somebody who was a now
(21:25):
Like he would do now and again. And so I would, you
know, do a little because I thought, well, what's the harm? I can
just do a little. And then the little became a lot. And
then I found other avenues besides
sniffing it to do it. And still, still,
(21:48):
Yeah. Well, we talk about functional addicts or alcoholics,
but you're not really they're not really all there. I
mean, they can give off the impression that they're in control,
but however, that was the first, probably
around 2014, 2015, I was in my late fifties. And
I just felt like I was invisible again. It's like
(22:11):
I was, you know, in high school, not getting invited to
parties. And so I
thought, well, maybe that's a solution to
the problem. Yeah.
And what that led to was yet another, you
Yeah. It's destabilizing for sure. What prompted you to get
(22:35):
Well, you know, I don't go to meetings. Most of my close
friends are in recovery or, you know, still go to
meetings. So I retired in
2016. I was 60 and I had an opportunity to
move to New York and live there for a year in Harlem. And
I thought, well, that sounds like an adventure. So I
(22:56):
did that. And I think that that finally
forced me to let go of all
Yeah. Because here I was, I was creating this whole new world
and I wasn't going to muck it up. And it's just so
weird. It was like literally like almost overnight, I just stopped everything.
(23:19):
Wow. And what supports have you
found helpful for your adoption piece of it? Have
Yeah, I have several friends who are in the program who
are adoptees. So, you know, we're connected. But
then, you know, I want to tie in the also like
three years later after I moved back to California and
(23:44):
I decided to do the DNA test. And the
reason why I didn't do it before or well, there wasn't DNA
testing prior to 2012, but I
I had mental health issues. What am I going to do? Show
up on their doorstep? Hi, I'm a big mess.
(24:06):
Yeah. So you got yourself in a healthier spot and then started looking
Yeah, well, I was still in the fog. Okay. So
that was hell. I mean, I was still in fog. I was still
supporting adoption. Adoption is great. And then I
would meet my family and go like, Oh, well, I
feel like I dodged a bullet actually. But
(24:29):
you know, I had no I have no idea about the corruption, the
coercion, the shaming people. Oh,
that's one thing I do remember from my mother. She said your mother was immoral and
(24:49):
So that's terrible. You know, it was sex. You
know, people get shamed. Women. It's like, I don't
know how men are never shamed. It's always the women.
Yeah. So you were your adoptive parents sound like
they were not very well attuned
(25:11):
and they weren't very far along in their own personal growth. It sounds like
Well, and this is where I also want to play an intergenerational trauma.
Because in 2019, and when I found these families
and I found out, you know, secrets and skeletons and
(25:34):
And part of my anxiety involves, you know, people
escaping the Irish famine. and coming to the US, so
that's part of my artist heritage, which
Sure, sure, sure. Oh, yes. A lot of people trade, you
(25:55):
know, alcohol or drugs for food or they constantly have
food along the way, either way. But yeah, food is a huge addiction for
many, many, many people, myself included. So, yeah, it's
So gradually I came out of the fog and it was, you know,
literally came kicking and screaming out. And
(26:18):
Okay. And I noticed your, your moniker online is
Well, that was, you know, that was my name, um, what
Challenging authority figures and not rolling
(26:43):
Yeah, I think it's a good thing to regain agency over
your life. and rebel, just rebel
against these sort of expectations on adoptees that
we're going to be grateful and thankful. And look,
I'm not disparaging growing up in
a comfortable home and living a relatively comfortable life.
(27:06):
But the thing is, is that it's not the same. I mean, yeah,
sure, I found out that I probably would not have wanted to
You know, fantasy. I have no idea whether it
would have been bad or maybe it would have been different. Different. Definitely
(27:27):
different. I was born in Southern California. Well, I
was born in Virginia, but came to California when I was three. And
so I'm thoroughly Southern California, even though
I live in the Bay Area. And that's my mentality. And
they're all in the capital of the Confederacy, Richmond,
Virginia. And I still have
(27:49):
views that I don't understand. I would say that
your environment plays a huge role in how you how
you turn out. And I guess, you know, maybe I survived
those years because I knew how to function in
That was great. So I knew what to say. I
(28:14):
I knew how to create this image where people would go, oh,
he's one of the good guys. I didn't want to
stand out when I was growing up because, well, I already
had glasses and I was overweight. had
one of those Huffy bikes and we had to
Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, that
(28:38):
But anyway, looking back in retrospect, of course, I wish
I had this hindsight. all those many years ago,
I wish I had maybe made that connection to
the drug use, to trying to escape the pain of feeling
lonely and alienated from myself and
disconnected. And it's, it's not a moral issue. It's
(29:02):
not, it's just not when people dismiss it as you're
just immoral or you're, you know, you lack the discipline,
Maybe people can look at someone that's hurting like you were
(29:23):
and go, whoa, they're really hurting. They need
some support. What can we do to help them instead of more
Well, I think that we live in a society that has become
gradually unempathetic. For instance, people,
you know, trash homeless people. Well, okay, so
(29:44):
where is it that you think that they could work? Or
where is it that you think that they could get an apartment? What
Yeah, that's terrible. What advice do you
(30:07):
have for an adoptive parent? Maybe they have a little kid, an
eight-year-old, maybe they're struggling, maybe
they're gay or they might be gay or maybe gender non-conforming or
Well, yeah, that's a thing too. Well, I mean, I knew that
I was different when I was probably around six, but I never,
you know, I didn't think in terms of sexual things. And
(30:29):
you hear a lot about these kids who are gender non-conforming. And,
you know, I think some of it's just kids rebelling against,
you know, the status quo. I would, you know, watch
out for the warning signs, like gradual withdrawal and
see to maybe sleep too much or getting shamed.
for trying to escape, trying to sleep it away. But
(31:00):
Yeah. I mean, my parents used shame as a weapon. I
see other adoptees getting into shaming. I mean,
it's just, I wish there was a better way at
messaging. And then also realize that when your
teen gets into their teens, that's a crazy
time anyway for any kid. And
(31:22):
I think that's when the sort of genetic factors start
sinking in. They don't look like their parents. They don't let
their friends' parents look like them, but they don't have that. And
so they're going to feel, well, I felt just sort
of, I don't know where it should end. And no
matter what I do, it's not going to, I'm trying to fit
(31:44):
myself into this giant puzzle that won't, I'm the wrong size
or the wrong piece. And also,
you know, teen, I mean, I remember as a teen, it wasn't like,
you know, you suddenly start to want independence. You
don't want to spend every single second with your family, but
(32:05):
Yes, they take it personally. Yeah. There's
so much adoptive parents can do, hopefully, before
they even adopt. But as your kids are young, kind of try
to get a hold of your own issues so you don't add them to
Well, with my adoptive parents, I was supposed to fill a
(32:28):
And then I didn't really pan out like they had hoped. And
that's the thing that adoptive parents have to realize that as
a kid gets older, they're going to start to realize that
they are really different. I mean, it's easier to hide that when
you're a kid as far as you don't look like your parents. Well,
you know, as kids get older, they become more aware, more
(32:50):
consciously aware that they're not like their parents. And
well, for instance, my parents, when I started to withdraw, then they just
started to withdraw their emotional support or
their emotional empathy. And I felt
I'm really sorry that you didn't have the support you
(33:12):
needed. It sounds like you really have built your own life. You
found your own support outside of your family that many, many
gay people do. I get that. And if people
wanted to get a hold of you and engage with you, what would
(33:35):
Okay, Facebook and Instagram, The Rebellious Adoptee. I'll make sure and
put those two links. So everyone look below or to the side of
wherever you press play. And there's a bunch of notes and resources
for you. We'll make sure you get a hold of Dave. Well, thank you, Dave, for being
on and sharing your story, your really remarkable
(33:56):
I think what probably the most healing thing for
me now has been the support of other adoptees. You
know, I have a couple of adoptee brothers that I can call and
that has made all the difference in the world because when I'm having
a trauma meltdown or flipping out over
something minor, you know, I can get ahold of these people and
(34:19):
we can talk. And that has been more
therapeutic than all the money I spent on therapy and
self-help. That's where the real healing came
Finding people that have been through a similar situation as you. Find that
peer support. Yeah, you're not alone. That's so, so,
(34:42):
It's hard to know as far as imparting advice to people
who are still struggling. I'm just
thinking, you know, when people try to pass advice on to me, I would just
Sometimes you're so depressed and so stuck that
you don't know how to reach out to help and you don't know. But,
(35:04):
you know, there are thriving, adoptive communities. There are many groups.
If you don't like one, there's another. You know, it's not and
don't take everything to heart that people say on social
Yeah, find the people that resonate with you. There are a lot of groups, and our
community calendar, which I've linked below in the show notes, will have maybe
(35:25):
some resources you hadn't heard of before. But just Google find
support online. There's a ton of support, and even in
a lot of communities. So find what you
need. Each person has to find what works for them. Well,
you're a great example of that, Dave. Thank you very, very much for being on with
(35:47):
Of course, of course. So listeners, connect with Dave on
social media as the rebellious adoptee and find Unraveling
Adoption at unravelingadoption.com. Check
out our tab that's called Events if
you want to find out about upcoming events we're doing. And don't
forget, there's a code in the show notes for 20% off
(36:09):
our February 8th event, Adoption Healing Quest. We
are always trying to provide effective and innovative
events and opportunities for people to find healing, find
tools, and find connection. So please join us
in that quest and help us spread the word. So
thank you all for listening to this episode. Please share it with anyone you
(36:31):
know who might be struggling with addiction or suicidality or
might be an adoptive parent with somebody who's struggling. Let's all
learn from Dave's experience and his wisdom
that he shared with us. And thank you all for listening. Dave
Hey there, welcome to Unraveling Adoption. Before we get to this week's episode,
I wanted to let you know about an amazing event we're hosting on February 8th,
2025. It's going to be a hybrid event, so you can join us online
or in person in Seal Beach, California. It's
called Adoption Healing Quest and it will involve
(00:24):
10 practitioners from the Healing the Adoption Constellation database presenting
interactive workshops about different healing modalities that
will add tools to your toolkit to help you deal with
adoption trauma. I really hope you can join us or help
us spread the word. There's a 20% discount link in
the show notes, and that discount is good through the end of January. So
(00:46):
hop on it, help us spread the word, and I hope to see you there, Adoption
Healing Quest, on February 8th. And now, enjoy
this episode. Welcome
to this episode of Unraveling Adoption, an intentional space to
delve into adoption's complexities together. I'm Beth Syberson.
I'm an adoptive mom of a creative and insightful young adult son,
(01:08):
Joey, who has struggled for the last several years with suicidality and
addiction. I'm walking beside him while working on my own personal
growth and healing. Joey and I are committed to helping anyone impacted
by adoption, and we want to help the general public understand adoption's
complexities better too. I'm also a certified coach helping seekers
who want to move their lives forward. Well, today's guest, Dave
(01:30):
Sanchez-Brown, is an adoptee who has also struggled with
suicidality and addiction. Joey and I have a
goal of destigmatizing addiction and mental illness, and we also love
highlighting adoptive voices that we don't typically hear from as often.
So the fact that Dave is a gay man makes me want to give him an even louder voice
to get his story out there. Dave lives in San Jose in Northern California,
(01:51):
and he's worked hard for the last decade or so on his recovery from
meth and also on his coming out of the adoption fog.
He's found ways to unpack his trauma and build community. His
story will inspire you and give you hope for yourself or anyone you
know who might be on the struggle bus right now. Welcome to
(02:12):
Yeah. Well, whenever I have an adoptee on, I just always
start by giving them an opportunity to share their adoption story. What
I'm going to give you little clips of it. So in the summer
of 2019, I read Danny Shapiro's Inheritance.
And it was about a woman who never felt quite
(02:33):
sure where she fit into their family because she
was the only blonde haired, blue eyed kid out
of this whole extended family. So her
husband suggested she take a DNA test and she sends away,
gets a kid. And then finally she does it
and discovers that she was donor conceived. And
(02:54):
so she did not know. And then it follows the
story of her developing a relationship with her donor
father. Her father had already passed away before she
went down this road. In fact, he died in an accident with
her mother. The mother survived, but the dad passed
away. So I did that too. I sent
(03:15):
away for a couple of different kits and, you
know, they would sit on my desk for six months and
then I would just throw it away. And then finally, after I read her
book, I said, okay, this is it. I'm going to do it. So
I sent away for the kit and then did a
spit in the vial, got the results back in six months. And that
(03:36):
actually was kind of a traumatic event, opening up this
page displaying all of your blood relatives.
And there were hundreds of people. And I knew my mother's
last name. So one side was full of
carols. And honestly, I didn't put everything
together because I was so overwhelmed by all this information. I
(04:00):
mean, I froze. I didn't really know what to do. Then
I started sending off emails to people hoping to
find, are you my mother? Are you my father? Because
I have two first cousins. So I wasn't quite sure which
was which. One was for my father, one was for
(04:21):
I did. So let me give a little plug out for Search
Angels. These are volunteer genealogists who
put in their time and love to
help people, reconnect people. So I was
so overwhelmed. I just needed help. So I was in a group called
DNA Detectives and I asked if there was anyone
(04:42):
in the group that could help me because I And
then this woman emailed me later in the day, and
she did. And within two weeks, she was
able to put together my paternal and maternal family
trees. And then I was
able to go back eight generations just from that information, you
(05:04):
know, based on public records, based on other
family trees. And, you know, when people get
messages from a stranger, I mean, you
Why are you messaging me? So finally, one of
my first cousins reached out to me because I was born
in Norfolk, Virginia, and she was in Richmond, Virginia. And
(05:28):
she said, can you send me some pictures of you at
different stages of your life? OK, I did. And
then in return, she sent pictures of her uncle,
who is my father. OK. So, yeah, it was like,
what? And when I saw his picture, I was
so overwhelmed. I wanted to cry, but nothing
(05:51):
would come out because my mother said, you'll never find him.
So I wasn't even sure about contacting him, but I
mean, I never actually, honestly, I never meant to get emotionally
involved with any of this stuff. I guess what I had hoped to accomplish
was seeing a picture of my father, seeing a picture of my mother,
(06:14):
finding out some rudimentary family information because I
was a historical buff, which I did. I found a
lot of information. And then I discovered I had three sisters, new
half-sisters. Oh, wow. And two of them are twins. And
then there's a third one, and they have all, well, particularly
one of the sisters struggled with addiction. And
(06:37):
then I found out from my cousin, she said, well, it's a
I call it genteel addiction because they were well respected.
But you know, at the time in the fifties and forties, people didn't
(07:03):
At work. Yeah, that's right. The martini lunches and all that. So
Yes, that's my genetic history. And then
I guess he died from what they call wet brain or just was
(07:28):
Yeah, so you know about taking a DNA test, you
have to be prepared to accept anything. You're going
to find out things about your birth parents that you wish
you hadn't. You'll find out, let me just
say this, I know where my crazy gene comes from. I
never made that connection. Well, I didn't have that information. I knew nothing
(07:53):
And how was your adoptive family? Were they supportive of your mental health struggles
I actually waited until after my parents died before I did it.
My adoptive brother had died. So my sister was, yeah, she
I would like to know. I wanted to know. I was interested in following
your story. I mean, you know, we're both in our 60s. So
(08:16):
fast forward to my teen years. You know, I don't want to get into
when my parents told me adopted because I felt like
How old were you when they told you you were adopted? Eight. Ooh,
So I was rather old and I'd already bonded
with them. So I felt like, whoa, what?
(08:40):
And I was, you know, I was upset. I got really angry. I
said that we have to go look for her. And my mother got
right in my face and screamed, I'm your mother, you self-centered
Oh no, that hurts me so bad. I'm so
(09:00):
Yeah. So, you know, my family said I always
rejected them, but they rejected me. And my
answer was to withdraw. And I guess my
first drug of choice, I guess, would be called sleep because
I would come home from school. I was a bully target
(09:21):
Okay. Yeah. Sleeping works really well. It just knocks everything
Well, you know, I was literally in so much pain. I just wanted
Oh gosh, 17. Yeah.
(09:41):
Well, right about that time, I started getting into my dad's alcohol.
And I was particularly fond of anything that would bring
You know, opiates and barbiturates that I've found through
unsavory characters. So yeah, I ended up in a
psychiatric hospital. And that was my first
(10:04):
trip to hell, literally. Yeah, yeah.
Those places are, they're horrible. The nursing
staff is, they're just burnt out. But
I knew enough not to go crazy or else I
was afraid of a straight jacket or, you know, being
dumped in a padded room or, and then I manipulated
(10:26):
Okay. Yeah, that sounds familiar. My son also had horrible
experiences at many different hospitals and they never helped him
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, the burnout, understandably, probably
of the staff and just not very many caring people there.
(10:47):
So that's, that's really tough. And my son also kind of
He just was super smart like that. So I hear that. That reminds
me of my son a lot. Oh, that sounds really rough. But it
sounded like for you, the suicidality and the drugs and
(11:07):
You know, actually, on thinking back, I think that
Because I just wanted to be gone and I did not want to
Yeah. When we had our talk earlier,
you talked about taking a bunch of aspirin at
(11:30):
Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. And actually, that happened when
Yeah. I said, I'm going to kill myself. My mother said,
don't act like a girl. And I went upstairs and
got into the medicine cabinet, got out the aspirin, just swallowed
(11:56):
Well, I think that they would have got me help, like psychiatric help,
I went to the emergency room and, you know, I
More angry than, you know, dumbfounded why I would do
(12:17):
They didn't say, Oh God, you must be hurting. You just tried to kill yourself. What can we
Well, my father was a military guy. He
was a commander in the Navy. So we ate
our meals squarely, which means you go down, you
(12:41):
So gave me a lecture about this isn't what boys do.
You need to grow up. You need to stop being dramatic. You need to
stop. Oh, I know you'll like this attention seeking.
No, I don't really see any point in living at eight years old because
(13:03):
Yeah, yeah, there's a huge disconnect there. And you you were feeling
it and you were told to not have any feelings. Don't
be dramatic. You're just seeking attention. Oh, that
is like the worst thing to tell somebody in that kind of
struggle. I'm kind of shocked that you survived that childhood. That sounds
really, really horrible. And what do you think helped
(13:27):
Well, they kept us active. We're on Boy Scouts and Cub
Scout. Very regimented. Dance classes, tennis
club. So everything was regimented. Everything
was... And then on weekends we had to help my father do work
around the house because he was an engineer and
he was kind of a do-it-yourself guy. There was really
(13:49):
never really any downtime. Like everything
was go, go, this is scheduled, this is scheduled. No, you can't
quit. You know, you have to keep going. And some
of it I liked. There were some other kids that I really, you know, bonded with
and they helped me survive, actually. I mean, I didn't go
into detail about what I was doing or how I hated myself.
(14:12):
But it seemed like there were other misfits like I
Like it was like Left Troop, that old sitcom
They do. And it's good because I felt, I
(14:33):
I felt like I have other kids that liked me and I liked them.
So anyway, I left home towards the
end of the 70s and moved to San Francisco. And
there were a number of reasons, you know, I had decided to come
You know, when I was 19 or
(14:55):
20. And my parents were livid. Well,
my mother said, you're just going to live a very lonely life. Good
luck. My dad wouldn't even acknowledge it.
And then I went there and, you know, was able to be myself.
I was able to embrace the, you
know, the quirkiness, the eccentricity, the
(15:17):
arty side of Nitti. And those were my friends
Yeah, that was the place to be. I'm thinking Did
Oh, yeah. I saw him on a platform a couple of times. People
absolutely dismissed him. Like they thought he was a crackpot.
(15:40):
And I think he ran for office a couple of times and lost, but he finally
won. Yeah. And I don't know what it was about
him, like what I call the A-gays, the ones that are very secure and
have a lot of money. And they didn't like him because they thought
he was tacky or too
out there. That's it, too out there. And
(16:02):
they didn't want to be associated with that. Like, oh, no, people
are going to think we're like that, like that. Nobody wants to be like
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, in the gay community, I bet,
I notice this now still, but I bet then in the
70s, 80s, that drugs and alcohol were just rampant
in the gay community. Yeah, I bet it would be hard to be sober there.
(16:31):
Well, crystal meth. Although I didn't really get developed
with it at that time because I finished
college at the University of San Francisco and I
got a job at the University of California in San Francisco. So
I had a pretty demanding job where
(16:56):
If I couldn't pay the rent or pay my bills, I couldn't go
to my parents for practical reasons.
And then I met somebody in San Francisco when
I was 28 and we moved to LA. And it
was new life. And I honestly didn't even think
about suicide or drugs during
(17:18):
that time. I felt like my life was so full and
I made some really great friends. And I felt like, you
know, being in L.A. when you're 20s and, you
know, it was it was fun. It was free. Yeah.
You know, I didn't have any reason to be. And
I forgot about all those past traumas, all those And
(17:40):
then my partner died suddenly from AIDS.
Actually, that's what sent me. He died in 1992. And then
that set me off on a tailspin that lasted
(18:01):
Well, you know, honestly, what do I have to lose? Because
there's no cure. I'll be dead in a couple of years. And you
know what? I mean, nobody is more surprised than I am that
I'm still alive. because I
literally did everything after finding that out,
diagnosed, and I was like, okay, the party's on.
(18:25):
And most of my friends were in that apocalypse mood.
Like, yeah, no, you can do whatever you want. I
went on, actually, I had some of the infections that
That lasted about six years, because during that
time, the drugs came out, and so I had to clean up.
(18:49):
But the whole time, I mean, yes, I felt secure with
some of these groups, and I also felt like there was this huge chunk
of me missing. And when my friends would talk about
their families and their parents, I would feel left
And so what I started doing is just creating a fictitious family.
(19:10):
Oh, okay. You just made one up and that made it easier at
Everything was super great and they were all in San Diego
and we're really close, which was not
the truth. And the mode that I grew up in was about as
middle class Southern California as you could get. I mean, two
(19:31):
parents, mom and a dad, and we went to church
And they were Republicans. Well, back when they were more like Democrats.
Well, so you created your own community and your own fictitious
I had to create my own family, just like I had to create my
(19:53):
own parents, my own birth parents in
But yeah, in my mind, I was really with them and
I wanted to protect this artificial life to people. Because
I was so unhappy that I thought, well, I'll
just tell this story enough times and people might believe
(20:19):
Well, I did. And I forgot about their adoption
I was going to ask if in the gay community, did anyone, were there
Well, that's interesting you say that. Well, I have three adopted
friends. We were all struggling with drugs and addiction. Oh,
(20:41):
And did you talk about adoption and go, God, this... You know, we, I
Oh, we all thought it was interesting that we were adopted, but we never thought
like, Oh, maybe there's some sort of connection. Yeah,
you didn't do that shit. You're
looking to feel connected to people because it
(21:02):
is the only way that you can And it's all artificial,
but in my head, I, you know, convinced myself that it
And then, you know, I started doing a little bit of math
around 2013. OK. I moved
in with somebody who was a now
(21:25):
Like he would do now and again. And so I would, you
know, do a little because I thought, well, what's the harm? I can
just do a little. And then the little became a lot. And
then I found other avenues besides
sniffing it to do it. And still, still,
(21:48):
Yeah. Well, we talk about functional addicts or alcoholics,
but you're not really they're not really all there. I
mean, they can give off the impression that they're in control,
but however, that was the first, probably
around 2014, 2015, I was in my late fifties. And
I just felt like I was invisible again. It's like
(22:11):
I was, you know, in high school, not getting invited to
parties. And so I
thought, well, maybe that's a solution to
the problem. Yeah.
And what that led to was yet another, you
Yeah. It's destabilizing for sure. What prompted you to get
(22:35):
Well, you know, I don't go to meetings. Most of my close
friends are in recovery or, you know, still go to
meetings. So I retired in
2016. I was 60 and I had an opportunity to
move to New York and live there for a year in Harlem. And
I thought, well, that sounds like an adventure. So I
(22:56):
did that. And I think that that finally
forced me to let go of all
Yeah. Because here I was, I was creating this whole new world
and I wasn't going to muck it up. And it's just so
weird. It was like literally like almost overnight, I just stopped everything.
(23:19):
Wow. And what supports have you
found helpful for your adoption piece of it? Have
Yeah, I have several friends who are in the program who
are adoptees. So, you know, we're connected. But
then, you know, I want to tie in the also like
three years later after I moved back to California and
(23:44):
I decided to do the DNA test. And the
reason why I didn't do it before or well, there wasn't DNA
testing prior to 2012, but I
I had mental health issues. What am I going to do? Show
up on their doorstep? Hi, I'm a big mess.
(24:06):
Yeah. So you got yourself in a healthier spot and then started looking
Yeah, well, I was still in the fog. Okay. So
that was hell. I mean, I was still in fog. I was still
supporting adoption. Adoption is great. And then I
would meet my family and go like, Oh, well, I
feel like I dodged a bullet actually. But
(24:29):
you know, I had no I have no idea about the corruption, the
coercion, the shaming people. Oh,
that's one thing I do remember from my mother. She said your mother was immoral and
(24:49):
So that's terrible. You know, it was sex. You
know, people get shamed. Women. It's like, I don't
know how men are never shamed. It's always the women.
Yeah. So you were your adoptive parents sound like
they were not very well attuned
(25:11):
and they weren't very far along in their own personal growth. It sounds like
Well, and this is where I also want to play an intergenerational trauma.
Because in 2019, and when I found these families
and I found out, you know, secrets and skeletons and
(25:34):
And part of my anxiety involves, you know, people
escaping the Irish famine. and coming to the US, so
that's part of my artist heritage, which
Sure, sure, sure. Oh, yes. A lot of people trade, you
(25:55):
know, alcohol or drugs for food or they constantly have
food along the way, either way. But yeah, food is a huge addiction for
many, many, many people, myself included. So, yeah, it's
So gradually I came out of the fog and it was, you know,
literally came kicking and screaming out. And
(26:18):
Okay. And I noticed your, your moniker online is
Well, that was, you know, that was my name, um, what
Challenging authority figures and not rolling
(26:43):
Yeah, I think it's a good thing to regain agency over
your life. and rebel, just rebel
against these sort of expectations on adoptees that
we're going to be grateful and thankful. And look,
I'm not disparaging growing up in
a comfortable home and living a relatively comfortable life.
(27:06):
But the thing is, is that it's not the same. I mean, yeah,
sure, I found out that I probably would not have wanted to
You know, fantasy. I have no idea whether it
would have been bad or maybe it would have been different. Different. Definitely
(27:27):
different. I was born in Southern California. Well, I
was born in Virginia, but came to California when I was three. And
so I'm thoroughly Southern California, even though
I live in the Bay Area. And that's my mentality. And
they're all in the capital of the Confederacy, Richmond,
Virginia. And I still have
(27:49):
views that I don't understand. I would say that
your environment plays a huge role in how you how
you turn out. And I guess, you know, maybe I survived
those years because I knew how to function in
That was great. So I knew what to say. I
(28:14):
I knew how to create this image where people would go, oh,
he's one of the good guys. I didn't want to
stand out when I was growing up because, well, I already
had glasses and I was overweight. had
one of those Huffy bikes and we had to
Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, that
(28:38):
But anyway, looking back in retrospect, of course, I wish
I had this hindsight. all those many years ago,
I wish I had maybe made that connection to
the drug use, to trying to escape the pain of feeling
lonely and alienated from myself and
disconnected. And it's, it's not a moral issue. It's
(29:02):
not, it's just not when people dismiss it as you're
just immoral or you're, you know, you lack the discipline,
Maybe people can look at someone that's hurting like you were
(29:23):
and go, whoa, they're really hurting. They need
some support. What can we do to help them instead of more
Well, I think that we live in a society that has become
gradually unempathetic. For instance, people,
you know, trash homeless people. Well, okay, so
(29:44):
where is it that you think that they could work? Or
where is it that you think that they could get an apartment? What
Yeah, that's terrible. What advice do you
(30:07):
have for an adoptive parent? Maybe they have a little kid, an
eight-year-old, maybe they're struggling, maybe
they're gay or they might be gay or maybe gender non-conforming or
Well, yeah, that's a thing too. Well, I mean, I knew that
I was different when I was probably around six, but I never,
you know, I didn't think in terms of sexual things. And
(30:29):
you hear a lot about these kids who are gender non-conforming. And,
you know, I think some of it's just kids rebelling against,
you know, the status quo. I would, you know, watch
out for the warning signs, like gradual withdrawal and
see to maybe sleep too much or getting shamed.
for trying to escape, trying to sleep it away. But
(31:00):
Yeah. I mean, my parents used shame as a weapon. I
see other adoptees getting into shaming. I mean,
it's just, I wish there was a better way at
messaging. And then also realize that when your
teen gets into their teens, that's a crazy
time anyway for any kid. And
(31:22):
I think that's when the sort of genetic factors start
sinking in. They don't look like their parents. They don't let
their friends' parents look like them, but they don't have that. And
so they're going to feel, well, I felt just sort
of, I don't know where it should end. And no
matter what I do, it's not going to, I'm trying to fit
(31:44):
myself into this giant puzzle that won't, I'm the wrong size
or the wrong piece. And also,
you know, teen, I mean, I remember as a teen, it wasn't like,
you know, you suddenly start to want independence. You
don't want to spend every single second with your family, but
(32:05):
Yes, they take it personally. Yeah. There's
so much adoptive parents can do, hopefully, before
they even adopt. But as your kids are young, kind of try
to get a hold of your own issues so you don't add them to
Well, with my adoptive parents, I was supposed to fill a
(32:28):
And then I didn't really pan out like they had hoped. And
that's the thing that adoptive parents have to realize that as
a kid gets older, they're going to start to realize that
they are really different. I mean, it's easier to hide that when
you're a kid as far as you don't look like your parents. Well,
you know, as kids get older, they become more aware, more
(32:50):
consciously aware that they're not like their parents. And
well, for instance, my parents, when I started to withdraw, then they just
started to withdraw their emotional support or
their emotional empathy. And I felt
I'm really sorry that you didn't have the support you
(33:12):
needed. It sounds like you really have built your own life. You
found your own support outside of your family that many, many
gay people do. I get that. And if people
wanted to get a hold of you and engage with you, what would
(33:35):
Okay, Facebook and Instagram, The Rebellious Adoptee. I'll make sure and
put those two links. So everyone look below or to the side of
wherever you press play. And there's a bunch of notes and resources
for you. We'll make sure you get a hold of Dave. Well, thank you, Dave, for being
on and sharing your story, your really remarkable
(33:56):
I think what probably the most healing thing for
me now has been the support of other adoptees. You
know, I have a couple of adoptee brothers that I can call and
that has made all the difference in the world because when I'm having
a trauma meltdown or flipping out over
something minor, you know, I can get ahold of these people and
(34:19):
we can talk. And that has been more
therapeutic than all the money I spent on therapy and
self-help. That's where the real healing came
Finding people that have been through a similar situation as you. Find that
peer support. Yeah, you're not alone. That's so, so,
(34:42):
It's hard to know as far as imparting advice to people
who are still struggling. I'm just
thinking, you know, when people try to pass advice on to me, I would just
Sometimes you're so depressed and so stuck that
you don't know how to reach out to help and you don't know. But,
(35:04):
you know, there are thriving, adoptive communities. There are many groups.
If you don't like one, there's another. You know, it's not and
don't take everything to heart that people say on social
Yeah, find the people that resonate with you. There are a lot of groups, and our
community calendar, which I've linked below in the show notes, will have maybe
(35:25):
some resources you hadn't heard of before. But just Google find
support online. There's a ton of support, and even in
a lot of communities. So find what you
need. Each person has to find what works for them. Well,
you're a great example of that, Dave. Thank you very, very much for being on with
(35:47):
Of course, of course. So listeners, connect with Dave on
social media as the rebellious adoptee and find Unraveling
Adoption at unravelingadoption.com. Check
out our tab that's called Events if
you want to find out about upcoming events we're doing. And don't
forget, there's a code in the show notes for 20% off
(36:09):
our February 8th event, Adoption Healing Quest. We
are always trying to provide effective and innovative
events and opportunities for people to find healing, find
tools, and find connection. So please join us
in that quest and help us spread the word. So
thank you all for listening to this episode. Please share it with anyone you
(36:31):
know who might be struggling with addiction or suicidality or
might be an adoptive parent with somebody who's struggling. Let's all
learn from Dave's experience and his wisdom
that he shared with us. And thank you all for listening. Dave
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