December 21, 2024 • 40 mins
In this episode of ValuePros Show, Bruce Scheer and marketing expert Neil Wilkins delve into the importance of improving the total value experience through strategic marketing. Discover how focusing on customer-centric practices can build trust and drive long-term success.
- Emphasizing customer education to build lasting trust and value.
- Exploring the concept of value creation without selling products.
- Advantages of co-creation, personalization, and collaboration in marketing.
- Bruce Scheer’s "value-ready framework" for successful sales.
- The need for consistent narratives across all company functions for a unified customer experience.
00:00 Excited to discuss enhancing total value experience.
06:44 Improving marketing's role in total value experience.
09:11 Value is subjective; cocreate for effective sales.
11:42 Patience over quick wins ensures long-term success.
15:25 Understand needs, deliver insights, justify value, execute.
20:03 Marketing journey: Awareness, conversion, retention, advocacy.
24:39 Personalization through co-creation enhances customer experience.
27:09 Understand prospects deeply for personalized value creation.
30:36 Customize value story for each discipline consistently.
32:30 Streamlines messaging, reduces risk, builds brand consistency.
37:07 Provide value without mentioning your product directly.
39:41 Align marketing with customer-centric value, cocreation.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the ValuePro Show, where value pros get value
ready. Hi. My name is Bruce Shearer, the host of the
ValuePro Show. In this episode, we'll be talking with Neil Wilkins,
a seasoned marketing consultant, author, podcaster,
and the managing director of VIPER Marketing. With over
35 years of experience, Neil specializes in
(00:23):
mindful and sustainable marketing practices, blending cutting
edge strategies like AI and the metaverse with a commitment
to creating ethical and impactful marketing experiences.
So in this episode, we will be exploring the critical role of
marketing and enhancing what valuepros.iio
has coined as the total value experience.
(00:46):
We'll uncover how marketers can create meaningful customer journeys
that go beyond transactions to building trust, loyalty,
and advocacy. So let's dive in.
Well, Neil, I am so excited for you to be on the show today
and and talking to you about this topic that's I'm
super, super passionate about, and we'll be
(01:08):
speaking a lot about this in 2025. It's kind of a
theme for us, but my business partners and I and other
stakeholders, we've been thinking about this whole concept of
total value experience. And so what what we're
trying to do is it's beyond the product or beyond the the
offering. A lot of people think about, hey. What's the the value of that offering?
(01:30):
What's the the business value, the emotional value, the
tangible value, the strategic value, thinking about the
offering and and having that offering adopted by the customer?
But that's crazy important, and we do a beautiful
job of helping, our clients characterize that.
But this bigger concept is also the buying
(01:53):
journey. How do we impact the total value
experience of that journey so the buyers can
buy and realize that potential value? So
it's it's it's above and beyond product. It includes product, but
what's the total value experience? And so you and
I were talking about this, Neil, about, you
(02:15):
know, just how do we improve the total value experience
through marketing. I know it's it's you know, any go to market effort and
team has, you know, multiple hats, multiple
pillars, you know, that all need to magically come together to create
this total value experience. But, you're a master in
marketing. I'm excited to get your spin on marketing's
(02:38):
role in creating this total value experience.
So let's, talk about you, Neil, just for a little bit and kinda
why you're here, about you and and, the
coolest company name I think I've seen in the marketing consulting
world, Vyper. But tell us about you, Neil.
So yeah, Bruce. Well, I I've been in marketing now for some three and a
(03:01):
half decades and counting, and it it does feel like it sometimes, but
it's so exciting. I think the the reason I stick with it, the reason I'm
so passionate about, yeah, value, purpose, you know, the
vision, you know, and the kind of real strategic end of of
the marketing scale is, I guess, is because it is ever evolving.
You know, for me, I I you know, and you you'll know this, Bruce, you
(03:23):
know, in in the work that you're doing, is it you can never stand still.
It is always evolving and changing. And if you can embrace
that kind of level of change, there's always opportunity. There's opportunity
to get more competitive, to break into new markets, just to do
exciting stuff. And I think that's what's always kept me so passionate
as an educator. I do a lot of work here in the UK with Cambridge
(03:45):
Marketing College, as a podcaster where I get to speak to some of
the craziest minds, you know, in sales and marketing and business
development and entrepreneurship across the world. And it is just such a
an honor to be part of the kind of podcasting community and, of
course, work with clients. So I'm actually there at the coalface trying to figure it
out with marketplaces and sectors where this stuff is a challenge.
(04:08):
I mean, it is. It's real. Yeah. And I just wanna
highlight for the audience that, you know, you and I, we met
on your podcast, the Neil Wilkins podcast.
And, I I at the time, I had just launched my book,
Inspire Your Buyers, Go to Market with a Story That Sizzles.
And, so my goal was to help, you know, our clients and other people that
(04:31):
probably couldn't afford our our service fees to at least
have a book that they could apply in their own world to create a
a a sales narrative that sizzles. That's what I
would talk about, Neil. And it was really fun having you
interview me on that and talking about that. And, Neil, I don't know
if I mentioned to you, but it's reached, top 10 in
(04:53):
sales and selling management three times since
you and I met, on on your podcast. So it's kind of
I'm kinda ending 2024 on a bit of a high. I'm
almost to a 100 reviews and, still holding
at a a solid 4.9. So It
is. It's been well received. I love that point one, though, Bruce. I love the
(05:15):
point one because there's still room for improvement. I know that Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm probably gonna have to get a 1,000 reviews to get it
into 5. You know? I I think I had some troll hit a 3, didn't
even leave a comment, etcetera. Who who
looks at that? You know, I'm just looking at it. Exactly. Some of the praise.
It's it's just boy, it's inflated my ego to say the
(05:37):
least. But, yeah, just back to our storyline. We met on the
podcast. I really respect you, and I you you teach so many
people and give back, which I think you and I with our podcast,
that's what that's all about. Just having fun with that.
So, back to this topic, though, just to make sure people get what they
need. You know, we're talking about total value experience. I
(05:59):
was describing that, but, part of the genesis
of this, weirdly enough, stems back to some time
I spent in Singapore. And I flew this
gentleman out first class to,
be our headliner at a service and quality conference.
And his name's Karl Albrecht, and he'd he'd written so many different
(06:22):
books. But I picked up this book of his. It's called The Only
Thing That Matters. And, he
really, really was seminal and way ahead of his time, but he's talking
about the only thing that really matters is customer
value. And, you know, he's probably even shaped,
you know, the name of our company, ValuePros dot io.
(06:44):
You know, that's just the heart of, you know, our DNA. We're trying to
help buyers and sellers, you know, what I say, get out
of the value fog and clearly identify, articulate,
and realize the value associated with the change
that's being proposed. So it kinda came
from Carl, but we've been thinking about,
(07:07):
again, the concept of total value experience.
Now you and I met, and we
were talking about how do you how does marketing what's
marketing's role in influencing the total value
experience across the journey, the buying and
selling journey that needs to transpire
(07:29):
for an organization to adopt a new solution and get off to the
races and and achieve that potential
value. So we were talking about that, and we'll dig
into it further, but I'd shared a framework with you what we call our value
ready framework. But before we dig in on some of the
detail, Neil, just a big question to you is
(07:51):
why why is improving the total value experience, what
we call TVE, through marketing so
important? What would you say on that?
Yeah. It's it's a fascinating question, isn't it, Bruce? Because I think
so many organizations, brands, marketers, business
development professionals kind of always say, you know, I put
(08:12):
customer first. And actually what they really mean is I do a little bit of,
you know, kind of passive listening, and then I try and sell to them.
I kind of push. And and you kind of it it just
every single time I hear it, every single time I see it, I think just
is such a wasted opportunity. And I think it is this kind of
paying lip service to this concept of value where actually when
(08:35):
you say I've listened to the customer and I'm reflecting back everything the
customer wants, and then actually what you're doing is you're using your
products or your services, features, and benefits to sell
those, I guess, assets, and you you're not actually considering
the customer's perception of value. It's all from your own
perception. It's all from your own perspective. And for me,
(08:58):
that's just such a wasted opportunity because there is something beautiful about
actually truly stepping into the customer's shoes
and viewing the world from their perspective. And and so few
people actually do that. Oh, gosh. That is just so
well articulated, Neil. Just a catchphrase or a
foundational phrase, I I might say is, you know, values in the eyes of the
(09:20):
beholder, you know, the the recipient. And,
you know, very, very often, I'm thinking when I'm interacting, especially on the sales
side, are are you selling are you showing up to sell stuff?
Are you showing up to sell value? And and with that
concept of value being in the eye of the beholder, need to
kinda understand the beholder and and kinda dig in
(09:43):
and and even cocreate and shape what the total
potential value could be. And that that's
the art and beauty, and there's science behind it as
well of having those selling conversations, buying
conversations, and and and cocreating what what that vision of
value might look like and creating that case for change around
(10:06):
that. And and so few in the
world of b to b sales and marketing do. And,
just some really, really rough staffs stats this year.
Gartner did a study and, determined that
75% of buyers prefer to have a sales free experience
in the world of b to b. And, you know, that that's
(10:29):
shocking. You know, it's horrible. You know, they they prefer to have a sales free
experience. Sometimes they have to have a sales experience in order to
buy, which is even worse. You know? So just, you know, it it
it's not good. And then I think, Neil, you know, I'd mentioned to
you, you know, the statistic of 60% of deals
end in indecision, where there was a lot
(10:51):
of energy that tried to go into making something
happen. And then, you know, both parties realize
you're you know, nothing moves forward. You know, the you
know, we we get into the stall of indecision. Nothing
moves forward, and all that time and energy was
wasted, which is, Neil, you know
(11:13):
Heathrow? I I don't like standing in line in Heathrow. That
that's wasted time. That's okay.
One of my pet peeves. You know, I love to help people move forward
and and accelerate and and get the value. So no.
I I I love what you said, though. Yeah. This
is a mindset issue. It's an orientation issue. It's you know, there
(11:35):
there's a lot lot to unpack in this. Anything else you can say
to anchor on the importance of it? I I just really wanted to
kind of, hook into something that you've just said there, which kind of
reminded me that I think too many of us are really on this kind of
almost a race to the close. And and I get it. You know, we
we've got either sales, you know, managers, or we've got our chief
(11:57):
execs, or we've got business owners kind of putting the pressure on, you gotta close
the deal. We need the revenue this month. Or, you know, we've done this
campaign. We wanna see the ROI from the campaign if you're a marketer
listening to this. And to me, that's great, and
I understand it. You know, we've all got to maintain cash flow, but it
kinda loses sight of the fact that the longer term
(12:19):
value you're gonna get back revenue wise, business growth
wise, brand quality wise is gonna come from being patient. And I
think if if we just continue to race to the close of
each sale opportunity, we've missed that beautiful sweet spot
where if we can build the relationship around value rather
than always going back to our product or our service to close the deal,
(12:42):
then we've got an opportunity to build something that is going to last. It's gonna
have longevity. And you just think about the lifetime value of
that relationship is gonna be 10 x, even a 100 x
more than just that single deal, and I think that's where we often fall
down. Okay. Yeah. So well
articulated. But, you know, back to this visual, I whipped this up with a Chatu
(13:03):
Bateez image generator, just goofing off with that.
But the whole concept of total value experience,
there's also an angle for the vendor as you highlight. You know, when you get
this right, you, you're gonna realize more
value. You know, you're gonna have a a happy advocate. You know,
your your customer's gonna realize the value that's been promised that you co
(13:25):
created together, and then and then you you measured for that first
impact, and you're heading down the right direction. The value's there. Oh my
gosh. You've got a loyal advocate, and you've got
retention. You know? You've got loyalty. They wanna stick around
because they see the value. They're realizing the value. They wanna expand
the value. You know, there's just, you know, this
(13:48):
this wonderful element what, you know, people think about
customer life cycle value, but that that that goes up as well.
And everyone wins when that does, both the the buyer and the
seller and the stakeholders behind them. So it's a beautiful
thing when it's done right. But very often, it's a it's
a push and pull and tug and, you know, and and things die on the
(14:10):
vine as as we talked about. It's just not going well.
But let's, let's talk about how to make it go well. You
know? So we've got this, this buying journey, you
know, what we call a value ready framework.
And for people listening to the show, the framework is
built on 4 4 key phases. You know? If if
(14:33):
somebody's gonna buy something from you, what we did in our
research and, you know, a lot of primary research, some secondary
research as well is we we coined this framework around the 4
phases. The first phase is you you wanna build trust, and,
there's certain dimensions around that. You need to be credibility
ready, client ready. You gotta gotta do some research and
(14:55):
homework on the client just so you can show up and respect their time,
and then and be relevant right out of the gate. And then you need to
be narrative ready, and that's what that best selling book I was telling you about.
Inspire your buyers, go to market with the story that sizzles is all about, nailing
that narrative. 2nd phase is understand
needs. So you're you're kinda end of the game. You had
(15:16):
credibility, you did your homework, you got a great story that's provocative
and talks about a need for change that that your
buyer can buy into. Then we need to really kinda double down and
understand needs. You know, what's this mean for different stakeholders, the different buyers
that's being buyer ready? How how do you get discovery
ready? How can you go in and ask some really good questions to
(15:38):
really get to the heart of of the total potential value that
that you could be offering? And, then you move into
the phase 3, deliver insights. You know? So you, you know,
did your homework, had that wonderful discovery. Now you're ready to
demonstrate to to all the critical decision makers and stakeholders
where where where that potential value is gonna come from and how that's gonna be
(16:01):
realized. That's how you what we call demonstration ready,
then moving into, what we call justification ready.
That's where, you know, we get our value calculator, ROI calculators, and, of
course, my firm does a a beautiful job of creating
assets like that, tools like that. But how do we help the
buyer quantify the potential value, and
(16:23):
put together a compelling business case? That's what we call justification ready.
That but then you need to move towards the final phase
of drive execution. And this is the stage that's
typically hangs up most deals where, are you
approval ready? One of our affiliates, Neil, he's a
former head of procurement for Levi Strauss. And he said, Bruce, you
(16:46):
wouldn't believe how many vendors would come to us. And they hadn't
even gone through in information security yet. And so, boom, you
know, add add on 2 to 3 months of their sales cycle
just just on that. You know, not not seeing that in advance
and getting in line and making sure that that process goes smoothly
or even procurement process, you know, making sure that procurement gets what
(17:09):
they need, etcetera. That's what we call approval readiness
on, underdrive execution. Then, you know, negotiation
readiness, you know, we we do find that when you have a compelling
total value proposition, that's quantified, that takes
a lot of heat off that pricing discussion, etcetera, and and the
terms, and and that'll help you in being negotiation
(17:31):
ready. And then the final, dimension there under drive
execution is impact ready, where, you and
the buyer agree. How, you know, how are we gonna measure
success? You know, you know, what are the critical few
metrics where we can get data to prove that you and
I moved the dial? And then you and I can feel
(17:54):
good about that if we didn't. Or if something's off, we
can, you know, course correct, you know,
early on and make sure you are realizing the value you
expect or even getting more. And then who knows? Maybe we'll talk about
some other things to create even more value at that point. But how are we
gonna measure for that that first impact success? And
(18:16):
I I've got a whole episode around that. That's that's really wonderful.
So, Neil, we just laid out this value ready framework from build
trust to understand needs, deliver insights, and drive execution.
Now over to you, the expert, talking about,
just the marketing role and impact across this, if you
could. So not just above funnel, not not just demand management,
(18:39):
but all the way through to those closed deals and
value realization. And I think that's it, Bruce. I mean, I
really do. I think I think it is about all the way through. I think
there's a there's a really key phrase for for your listeners here, this this
whole idea of all the way through. Because if you're listening to this from
a marketing or sales perspective and you're really being honest
(19:01):
with yourself, you are not performing. And I'll put myself here. I'll look in the
mirror, and I'll say I'm not performing as much as I know you're not
performing performing guys at the same level with every
single one of these ready factors. You're not. None of
us are. And I think one of the key things here is being brutally honest
with yourself and saying, okay. Where are we falling short? Where are we
(19:22):
actually not delivering where we could be
delivering? Where are we kind of almost being maybe a little bit complacent,
maybe, not as competitive, or maybe just our attention
isn't there. Maybe we're lacking in a process or some kind of level of
systemizing of what we do. So it kinda becomes a little bit wooly, a
little bit flaky, a bit unpredictable, and then there is
(19:45):
a weakness. There's an opportunity for you to kind of really sort of
grasp that and say, right. Here's an improvement opportunity. This is something we
could really focus on maybe for next year or maybe, you know, within this
kind of, improvement cycle that we're going through as we're planning
maybe for the upcoming quarter or whatever it is. So I mean, for me, it
is this whole through journey. We've gotta be thinking about this from a
(20:08):
marketing perspective right from the get go all the way through to
this, as you describe it, Bruce, you know, this building of advocacy, which obviously
comes at the end. The thing I love about this buying journey, the way
that you've constructed this, is that it really does
overlay on top of from a marketing framework, that very simple
three step kind of pipeline, if you like, from a marketing
(20:30):
perspective, which is awareness, conversion, retention.
So we've got a very simple customer journey in marketing that says build
awareness, the right kind of awareness with the right audience,
convert that awareness into some kind of transaction.
Might be monetary, but it doesn't have to be. It could be a change of
behavior or something like that, but you've gotta have a conversion point. And then from
(20:52):
that conversion point, build and retain the relationship
to build loyalty and get advocacy. So I I
just see that beautifully overlaid on this building trust,
understanding the needs, delivering the insights, and driving execution. It is
end to end. That is the beauty of this. And I just wanted
to kind of, I guess, really highlight something that I think for
(21:14):
many of us is kind of missing from this. Because when I
see clients doing this, not every client, some clients are great and some some are
really doing this, but when I see marketers and brands and some of my
clients, they they're kinda they're doing great planning, but it's
all about them. What they're not doing is a word that you've
just said a number of times, Bruce, which is cocreating.
(21:37):
They're not really cocreating this value
that makes them ready at all these points because what they're doing is they're making
assumptions or they're doing a piece of research. They're kind of
jumping the gun and saying, okay. This is what we think is value based on
the research, based on the trends. Oh, so we're gonna put that into the
mix. And then they feel the job is done. What they failed to
(21:58):
do is cocreate that value with the customer
or the prospect. So the way I'm seeing that word
cocreation play out is right the way through this journey,
this buying journey. So from a marketer's perspective, right at the front end
is, okay, well, which channels are we gonna use to warm the
prospect up so that when the salesperson goes in, this person
(22:21):
is ready. They're ready with the credibility because they understand what we
do. They're ready. They understand the base narrative. Okay. The
salesperson can go in and then really go deeper into what that
truly means. But what they're doing is they've been warmed up with a
consistent story, and they're doing that from a cocreation. So
they've listened to previous customers and actually how it's been for
(22:44):
them rather than just jumping and say, hey. We've got this snappy little
campaign. Aren't we clever? Look at the creative and
assuming that that is gonna work. Of course, that's ivory tower
planning. It isn't, you know, based on reality. It's not based
on the perception of your customer or your prospect. Mhmm.
So I just love the way that you phrase that co creation and
(23:05):
collaboration kind of, you know, set of words there because I think
that can play through this whole journey and both
bond the prospect or the customer with the salesperson, but can
also bring marketing into the same mix. And then
that I would see is where marketing and sales can work together
with the prospect or customer to really truly co
(23:27):
create the whole experience. And I think it's where those things aren't joined
up is where we find so much stuff falling through the gaps and those
opportunities then go to waste. Yeah. I mean, is it is that kind of how
you might see it too? Oh, yeah. 100%. Yeah. Very,
very much so. I've got something to interject for you that
I I hope you might enjoy. One of our,
(23:49):
affiliates is out of the UK, Neil, and he,
he's written a number of different books on on value,
but his definition of value is value
is a mystery. And he
plays off the Sherlock Holmes, but he says
that, you know, effectively, it's a mystery until you figure it
(24:12):
out. It it's a it's a puzzle. It it you know? And and you do
that with your customer, not not to them, but with them.
And and, you know, again, back to the cocreate and and
discover together what what that true value really
looks like, the true real value for them in
their context, in their situation. And and what's the
(24:35):
magnitude of that? What's the expectation around that?
And I think, certainly for me, I I kind of extending that on, and I
I love that analogy. I think it's great. It is this whole idea, which, of
course, you know, a lot of us know, in, you know, many commercial
disciplines are starting to really think deeply about, which is this word personalization.
(24:55):
Because, of course, if that is what we're trying to do in terms of value
or experience, in a in the broadest sense, then
personalization is achievable. I mean, it's it's a little bit
of a, you know, pipe dream if all you're doing is a generic kind of
offer from a sales and marketing perspective. But if you truly listen,
if you are helping the customer or the prospect to
(25:17):
discover the value that could be uncovered from the offer that you've
got and you're actually going on that journey together, there's an opportunity
to truly personalize because you're listening, they're listening,
and because you're co creating, it's so personal to them. It
almost by default is personalization. So you don't have to get
clever and scientific. It is by going through this this,
(25:39):
this journey with them that you are actually personalizing. And I I'm really
excited by that because it becomes a reality, something, you know, the
textbooks have said for decades, but never really had the the
perfect storm to realize it. But I think it's here now with this kind of
buying journey. Yeah. For for us, Neil, we're we're,
we're really just trying to impact, yeah, mindset for people to be
(26:01):
thinking about total value experience.
And and then on the notion of personalization,
the the tools that can be brought to bear are
are really incredible, especially now with the, you know, advent
of AI. We ourselves have a tool.
We call it ValueBrief, and, our clients
(26:25):
can use it to effectively get really
good at building trust. So, Neil, that's a a bit,
above marketing, or or how would I
say? It's designed for the individual sellers. But what they can
do is take their prospect, their prospect's LinkedIn
profile, and put that into our
(26:47):
tool, and, it'll help them it'll do all this
background homework and research. You know, look at the quarter learnings
report, and look at the 10 k, the annual report,
and, you know, investor interviews,
conversations. Grab all that content to try to
figure out what's important for that customer, whether they're strategic objectives.
(27:09):
What are they really trying to accomplish? What's their competitive sphere? What
what what's bothering them at this point in time? What's going on in their
world? And then, it'll help
characterize the what you talked about, that base level
narrative that that you could use to that's even tailored
to that prospect, not not just generic off of a
(27:31):
website, but even tailored for that prospect,
getting you into a posture of being narrative ready. So, gosh, just
with the the right mindset and the tools, you you can accomplish so
much, e even right now towards that, you know,
that that mystical, you know, future state of being
of personalization, really making that happen. And then
(27:54):
as you move into that buying journey, you know,
you know, you just do that at a much deeper level, but you've earned the
right to. You've built trust. Now now, you know, you got the
credibility. You know, let's go forward and and and really do
some work together so we can both achieve some incredible
value here. And I think it's it's interesting that you say that
(28:16):
from a, an individual salesperson's perspective that obviously they
can use LinkedIn and go and do that deep research. For from a marketer's
perspective, I could also see that working beautifully in terms of
campaign preparation because if you have your customer persona
profile, you could go through a similar kind of exercise with this
Oh, yeah. Kind of a make believe kind of persona, but we're kind of
(28:38):
almost stereotyping the ideal customer prospect there. And
then going through that same process with the AIs
to, you know, formulate a, you know, a proposition or
formulate some kind of value campaign in a
similar kind of way. I I could certainly see that working for marketers too. Well,
it it needs to happen. We do work on the marketing side of the house
(29:00):
as well. Because at the end of the day, for for a compelling
total value experience, you need to have a through line, you
know, through marketing, sales, product support.
Everybody needs to be on that same wavelength, on that same
signal. But, you know, like you said, you know, you have a base level
narrative, but then you need to really tailor it for that
(29:22):
customer and and tailor that value proposition for that
customer. So so they can, you know, see that and and
believe in that and and buy and and realize that that
potential value. So, yeah, everybody's involved. I,
I had the CRO, former CRO of Tableau,
on on the show just literally last week.
(29:46):
And when we built their narrative for them, their pre IPO
narrative, they they have their IPO for about a $1,000,000,000, and
then after that, salesforce.com bought them. So all my clients
are multimillionaires now, Neil. So they're in a in a happy place
financially anyways. But
once we built that narrative, it became a whole company narrative,
(30:09):
from the chairman to product, service,
professional services, every everybody, sales,
everybody went through training around the narrative, so they
could all be on that narrative. You know, because you gotta be
consistent at at the end of the day. Of course, as a professional
marketer, you know that, you know, the power of consistency and showing up
(30:30):
and really owning your position. But, you know, that needs to go
flow all the way through. And I guess that also translates
not only internally within your own team, but also from the
customer's perspective because if you have a multilayer
or multilevel sell going on. So you might be talking to a large corporate or
multinational where, you know, you have a number of different disciplines that this
(30:53):
value proposition or this value ready kind of journey needs
to play out in. So you might be talking to the finance director. You might
be talking to sales or, you know, the the operations team or
whatever. There there's also a little, sort of, you know, interplay going
on there where you need to customize almost this value
story, if you like, or this narrative for individual disciplines.
(31:15):
And it has to be consistent, so you have that thread playing through it. But
also then it has to be, you know, very targeted towards each
individual discipline, because they'll translate it differently, won't they? I
mean, this is the thing is you've gotta be quite fleet of foot here. This
isn't just a a one time exercise, and it will apply every time you do
it. You've gotta be really awake, haven't you, as a business professional now?
(31:39):
Absolutely. And also, if your organization like, I've done a ton of
work with Microsoft, and about 90% of their revenue flows through their partners,
their, strategic partners, value added resellers, etcetera.
Huge component of their go to market success has been around,
enabling their partner community. But, that that's just another
(32:00):
degree of, understanding and complexity that gets woven
into this. You know, a lot of those partners, they have their own secret
sauce that they add into the equation, and that needs to be part of the
narrative and and and the the the value
quantification, etcetera. You know, that that needs to be, you
know, in the eye of the partner as as a beholder as they take it
(32:22):
to their customers, the beholder, and and that creates another
level of complexity and opportunity for getting that right.
And I suppose what it's doing, just kinda thinking that through to to
almost to to view the the conclusion of that kind of,
sort of idea and way of thinking is it it kinda reduces risk,
doesn't it? Because if you have a a big, you know, kind of
(32:45):
supply chain, value chain that you're creating here, somebody like Microsoft,
obviously, it is huge. But even for a smaller organization
where, you know, you you might be in partial control
over how your messages are getting out and particularly if you have resellers,
etcetera, what this kind of approach is doing is it's
making it more predictable. It's making it more robust. It's making it more
(33:07):
consistent so that when anybody who may be interested as
a prospect sees or hears this storytelling, which is really
what we're talking about in communication, it comes through in a
consistent way. It isn't that salesperson a is gonna have a
very different take versus salesperson b. They're going to have
some consistency. So we're building brands here, aren't we, for the
(33:30):
long term? We're not just doing the sell in the short term. This is something
that's got real longevity to it, isn't it? Oh,
absolutely. And when done right, it it can, you know, really be the the
revenue accelerator. You know, that that's the sad thing. I see so
few organizations truly investing in this. You know, they might
invest a lot in r and d, but not r and d around, you know,
(33:51):
their narrative and how they go to market, for sure. And
then, you know, things get even more slippery, you know, even
past that, you know, front end of building trust and awareness. But, you know,
how how how that whole b to b, you know, buyer sales
journey transpires, that that gets super slippery as well.
Big opportunity for everybody to, to move forward
(34:15):
in a more orchestrated fashion, more consistent, more
impactful. Big opportunity.
Well, we've, we've covered a lot, and this has
been super fun. Of course, we're both passionate about it.
But what else would you say, Neil? Just final thoughts for us
as we think about this whole idea of, you know, the total value
(34:36):
experience and and the marketing orientation towards that. Anything
else that you could offer? Yeah. I mean, I think I mean,
it's just, I mean, you know, driven a lot by kind of your your
philosophy, Bruce, which is this whole thing about marketing the sizzle.
I I think within this kind of a framework, I think
part of the sizzle that comes through here is education, the word education.
(34:59):
Because I think for a lot of prospects and particularly existing
customers, if you can educate them with a lowercase e, I'm
not talking about preaching. I'm not talking about necessarily teaching. But as
part of that collaboration, as part of that cocreation,
if you can be educating them with opportunities, educate
them with, you know, the market trends, actually make their business
(35:22):
life easier to do business within. You're gonna make them
feel great. They're gonna perceive that you're giving them value because you
are, and it's gonna build that kind of that level of trust
that goes way, way beyond the sell. It goes way, way beyond the
marketing. This is actually about true human to human connection.
And so when they see your email come into their busy inbox or they see
(35:44):
your call caller ID coming up on their phone, they know they're
gonna get value, so they'll take that call or they'll look at your email first.
And I think if you're kind of helping them on that journey of looking good
and feeling good, then that is true value because, otherwise,
it is still transactional, if we're being honest.
I'm so glad you said that. That was part of the genesis of why we
(36:07):
called our company value pros dot I o.
Because, you know, if the buyer looks at the the telephone,
the the caller ID knows it's the sales guy. Run.
Don't answer it. Go straight to voice mail. But if they if they perceive
that as, oh, there's the value pro giving me a call
ready to create value for us. That's exciting. I'll take that one. You know,
(36:29):
that that that was our whole genesis and orientation around
this. Funny enough. Really? Well, you see, it's almost like I knew, but I didn't
genuinely listen as I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it's clearly
working, and it clearly does work. That's great. Because we wanted we also
wanted to help, sellers, oh, re
identify themselves. I'm not a seller. I'm a value pro. That
(36:51):
that's why I exist. I I help I I bring the value. I
I really help my clients achieve that value, and and and
I love getting my clients promoted because they made the right decision, but I
really wanna help out. It's all about the value.
So So I suppose, yeah, kind of a final sort of thought that kind of
plugs into that one as well is, I I guess, it's a bit little bit
(37:13):
of a challenge really both for marketers and for salespeople is,
can you actually provide value without ever mentioning your product or
service? Can you actually go into a meeting and not
talk about your product or service at all? And the customer then
thinks, wow, that was a great meeting. Because if you can do that, I think
then we're starting to hook into what value truly is because it isn't your
(37:35):
product or service. And that's the hardest thing, but it's the best thing to
focus on. Yeah. Yeah. Nope. I love it. Well, I
hate that's a mic drop moment. I I wanna leave on that thought. That's a
lovely, lovely provocation. So, Neil, just
wanna highlight for people how to get in touch with you.
For people watching this, Neil has one of the coolest looking
(37:58):
LinkedIn profiles I've seen. It's beautiful. And if
if you need to be in a happy place, go look up Neil's profile.
It'll immediately immediately, calm you.
I'll promise you that. And then, when you look for Neil, it's Neil
Wilkins x. And Neil does bring the x
factor, so that that's very valid. But, Neil Wilkins x
(38:20):
is the right Neil, and and notice that he's a a very
beautiful man with a very calming profile.
Also, Neil, let's talk about your podcast a little bit. Can you
tell us a little bit about the focus of it? Yeah. The
focus is for anybody with some entrepreneurial spirit. And what
I mean by that is you could be business developer. You could be an
(38:42):
account handler. You could be a marketer. Anybody who's in a
commercial sense or looking to differentiate and and do things
differently and and truly add value. So it's very aligned with the conversation
that we've had here today. So if you are looking to develop both
professionally and personally, get some very interesting guests on here
who will be, yeah, kind of just giving you some lifestyle, not
(39:05):
hacks. I think that kind of devalues it, but kind of yeah. They're doing
wholesome business. Somebody described it as this is wholesome, isn't it?
Wholesome as in holistic, but wholesome as in just good business
and and being a good human in in a commercial sense. So I love
that, and that's certainly the kind of, kind of guest that we tend to
see on the on the podcast. Awesome. Well,
(39:27):
Neil, thanks so much for your time, your consideration, and
and bringing the your whole self to this and creating a wholesome experience
for these listener today. Really appreciate it.
Thank you, Bruce. And I've been an absolute pleasure again. Well,
today's conversation with Neil Wilkins was a masterclass in
aligning marketing efforts with customer centric
(39:48):
value. We discussed how cocreation, personalization,
and collaboration can transform the entire
customer journey into an impactful total
value experience. One of my key takeaways is
Neil's challenge to us all. Can we deliver value
without even mentioning our products? That
(40:10):
truly resonated with me as a profound shift in how we
approach customer engagement. So if you enjoyed this
episode, please like and subscribe to the ValuePro show.
If you're feeling kind, leave a review so others can find and
enjoy it too. Thanks so much and keep on selling value.
Welcome to the ValuePro Show, where value pros get value
ready. Hi. My name is Bruce Shearer, the host of the
ValuePro Show. In this episode, we'll be talking with Neil Wilkins,
a seasoned marketing consultant, author, podcaster,
and the managing director of VIPER Marketing. With over
35 years of experience, Neil specializes in
(00:23):
mindful and sustainable marketing practices, blending cutting
edge strategies like AI and the metaverse with a commitment
to creating ethical and impactful marketing experiences.
So in this episode, we will be exploring the critical role of
marketing and enhancing what valuepros.iio
has coined as the total value experience.
(00:46):
We'll uncover how marketers can create meaningful customer journeys
that go beyond transactions to building trust, loyalty,
and advocacy. So let's dive in.
Well, Neil, I am so excited for you to be on the show today
and and talking to you about this topic that's I'm
super, super passionate about, and we'll be
(01:08):
speaking a lot about this in 2025. It's kind of a
theme for us, but my business partners and I and other
stakeholders, we've been thinking about this whole concept of
total value experience. And so what what we're
trying to do is it's beyond the product or beyond the the
offering. A lot of people think about, hey. What's the the value of that offering?
(01:30):
What's the the business value, the emotional value, the
tangible value, the strategic value, thinking about the
offering and and having that offering adopted by the customer?
But that's crazy important, and we do a beautiful
job of helping, our clients characterize that.
But this bigger concept is also the buying
(01:53):
journey. How do we impact the total value
experience of that journey so the buyers can
buy and realize that potential value? So
it's it's it's above and beyond product. It includes product, but
what's the total value experience? And so you and
I were talking about this, Neil, about, you
(02:15):
know, just how do we improve the total value experience
through marketing. I know it's it's you know, any go to market effort and
team has, you know, multiple hats, multiple
pillars, you know, that all need to magically come together to create
this total value experience. But, you're a master in
marketing. I'm excited to get your spin on marketing's
(02:38):
role in creating this total value experience.
So let's, talk about you, Neil, just for a little bit and kinda
why you're here, about you and and, the
coolest company name I think I've seen in the marketing consulting
world, Vyper. But tell us about you, Neil.
So yeah, Bruce. Well, I I've been in marketing now for some three and a
(03:01):
half decades and counting, and it it does feel like it sometimes, but
it's so exciting. I think the the reason I stick with it, the reason I'm
so passionate about, yeah, value, purpose, you know, the
vision, you know, and the kind of real strategic end of of
the marketing scale is, I guess, is because it is ever evolving.
You know, for me, I I you know, and you you'll know this, Bruce, you
(03:23):
know, in in the work that you're doing, is it you can never stand still.
It is always evolving and changing. And if you can embrace
that kind of level of change, there's always opportunity. There's opportunity
to get more competitive, to break into new markets, just to do
exciting stuff. And I think that's what's always kept me so passionate
as an educator. I do a lot of work here in the UK with Cambridge
(03:45):
Marketing College, as a podcaster where I get to speak to some of
the craziest minds, you know, in sales and marketing and business
development and entrepreneurship across the world. And it is just such a
an honor to be part of the kind of podcasting community and, of
course, work with clients. So I'm actually there at the coalface trying to figure it
out with marketplaces and sectors where this stuff is a challenge.
(04:08):
I mean, it is. It's real. Yeah. And I just wanna
highlight for the audience that, you know, you and I, we met
on your podcast, the Neil Wilkins podcast.
And, I I at the time, I had just launched my book,
Inspire Your Buyers, Go to Market with a Story That Sizzles.
And, so my goal was to help, you know, our clients and other people that
(04:31):
probably couldn't afford our our service fees to at least
have a book that they could apply in their own world to create a
a a sales narrative that sizzles. That's what I
would talk about, Neil. And it was really fun having you
interview me on that and talking about that. And, Neil, I don't know
if I mentioned to you, but it's reached, top 10 in
(04:53):
sales and selling management three times since
you and I met, on on your podcast. So it's kind of
I'm kinda ending 2024 on a bit of a high. I'm
almost to a 100 reviews and, still holding
at a a solid 4.9. So It
is. It's been well received. I love that point one, though, Bruce. I love the
(05:15):
point one because there's still room for improvement. I know that Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm probably gonna have to get a 1,000 reviews to get it
into 5. You know? I I think I had some troll hit a 3, didn't
even leave a comment, etcetera. Who who
looks at that? You know, I'm just looking at it. Exactly. Some of the praise.
It's it's just boy, it's inflated my ego to say the
(05:37):
least. But, yeah, just back to our storyline. We met on the
podcast. I really respect you, and I you you teach so many
people and give back, which I think you and I with our podcast,
that's what that's all about. Just having fun with that.
So, back to this topic, though, just to make sure people get what they
need. You know, we're talking about total value experience. I
(05:59):
was describing that, but, part of the genesis
of this, weirdly enough, stems back to some time
I spent in Singapore. And I flew this
gentleman out first class to,
be our headliner at a service and quality conference.
And his name's Karl Albrecht, and he'd he'd written so many different
(06:22):
books. But I picked up this book of his. It's called The Only
Thing That Matters. And, he
really, really was seminal and way ahead of his time, but he's talking
about the only thing that really matters is customer
value. And, you know, he's probably even shaped,
you know, the name of our company, ValuePros dot io.
(06:44):
You know, that's just the heart of, you know, our DNA. We're trying to
help buyers and sellers, you know, what I say, get out
of the value fog and clearly identify, articulate,
and realize the value associated with the change
that's being proposed. So it kinda came
from Carl, but we've been thinking about,
(07:07):
again, the concept of total value experience.
Now you and I met, and we
were talking about how do you how does marketing what's
marketing's role in influencing the total value
experience across the journey, the buying and
selling journey that needs to transpire
(07:29):
for an organization to adopt a new solution and get off to the
races and and achieve that potential
value. So we were talking about that, and we'll dig
into it further, but I'd shared a framework with you what we call our value
ready framework. But before we dig in on some of the
detail, Neil, just a big question to you is
(07:51):
why why is improving the total value experience, what
we call TVE, through marketing so
important? What would you say on that?
Yeah. It's it's a fascinating question, isn't it, Bruce? Because I think
so many organizations, brands, marketers, business
development professionals kind of always say, you know, I put
(08:12):
customer first. And actually what they really mean is I do a little bit of,
you know, kind of passive listening, and then I try and sell to them.
I kind of push. And and you kind of it it just
every single time I hear it, every single time I see it, I think just
is such a wasted opportunity. And I think it is this kind of
paying lip service to this concept of value where actually when
(08:35):
you say I've listened to the customer and I'm reflecting back everything the
customer wants, and then actually what you're doing is you're using your
products or your services, features, and benefits to sell
those, I guess, assets, and you you're not actually considering
the customer's perception of value. It's all from your own
perception. It's all from your own perspective. And for me,
(08:58):
that's just such a wasted opportunity because there is something beautiful about
actually truly stepping into the customer's shoes
and viewing the world from their perspective. And and so few
people actually do that. Oh, gosh. That is just so
well articulated, Neil. Just a catchphrase or a
foundational phrase, I I might say is, you know, values in the eyes of the
(09:20):
beholder, you know, the the recipient. And,
you know, very, very often, I'm thinking when I'm interacting, especially on the sales
side, are are you selling are you showing up to sell stuff?
Are you showing up to sell value? And and with that
concept of value being in the eye of the beholder, need to
kinda understand the beholder and and kinda dig in
(09:43):
and and even cocreate and shape what the total
potential value could be. And that that's
the art and beauty, and there's science behind it as
well of having those selling conversations, buying
conversations, and and and cocreating what what that vision of
value might look like and creating that case for change around
(10:06):
that. And and so few in the
world of b to b sales and marketing do. And,
just some really, really rough staffs stats this year.
Gartner did a study and, determined that
75% of buyers prefer to have a sales free experience
in the world of b to b. And, you know, that that's
(10:29):
shocking. You know, it's horrible. You know, they they prefer to have a sales free
experience. Sometimes they have to have a sales experience in order to
buy, which is even worse. You know? So just, you know, it it
it's not good. And then I think, Neil, you know, I'd mentioned to
you, you know, the statistic of 60% of deals
end in indecision, where there was a lot
(10:51):
of energy that tried to go into making something
happen. And then, you know, both parties realize
you're you know, nothing moves forward. You know, the you
know, we we get into the stall of indecision. Nothing
moves forward, and all that time and energy was
wasted, which is, Neil, you know
(11:13):
Heathrow? I I don't like standing in line in Heathrow. That
that's wasted time. That's okay.
One of my pet peeves. You know, I love to help people move forward
and and accelerate and and get the value. So no.
I I I love what you said, though. Yeah. This
is a mindset issue. It's an orientation issue. It's you know, there
(11:35):
there's a lot lot to unpack in this. Anything else you can say
to anchor on the importance of it? I I just really wanted to
kind of, hook into something that you've just said there, which kind of
reminded me that I think too many of us are really on this kind of
almost a race to the close. And and I get it. You know, we
we've got either sales, you know, managers, or we've got our chief
(11:57):
execs, or we've got business owners kind of putting the pressure on, you gotta close
the deal. We need the revenue this month. Or, you know, we've done this
campaign. We wanna see the ROI from the campaign if you're a marketer
listening to this. And to me, that's great, and
I understand it. You know, we've all got to maintain cash flow, but it
kinda loses sight of the fact that the longer term
(12:19):
value you're gonna get back revenue wise, business growth
wise, brand quality wise is gonna come from being patient. And I
think if if we just continue to race to the close of
each sale opportunity, we've missed that beautiful sweet spot
where if we can build the relationship around value rather
than always going back to our product or our service to close the deal,
(12:42):
then we've got an opportunity to build something that is going to last. It's gonna
have longevity. And you just think about the lifetime value of
that relationship is gonna be 10 x, even a 100 x
more than just that single deal, and I think that's where we often fall
down. Okay. Yeah. So well
articulated. But, you know, back to this visual, I whipped this up with a Chatu
(13:03):
Bateez image generator, just goofing off with that.
But the whole concept of total value experience,
there's also an angle for the vendor as you highlight. You know, when you get
this right, you, you're gonna realize more
value. You know, you're gonna have a a happy advocate. You know,
your your customer's gonna realize the value that's been promised that you co
(13:25):
created together, and then and then you you measured for that first
impact, and you're heading down the right direction. The value's there. Oh my
gosh. You've got a loyal advocate, and you've got
retention. You know? You've got loyalty. They wanna stick around
because they see the value. They're realizing the value. They wanna expand
the value. You know, there's just, you know, this
(13:48):
this wonderful element what, you know, people think about
customer life cycle value, but that that that goes up as well.
And everyone wins when that does, both the the buyer and the
seller and the stakeholders behind them. So it's a beautiful
thing when it's done right. But very often, it's a it's
a push and pull and tug and, you know, and and things die on the
(14:10):
vine as as we talked about. It's just not going well.
But let's, let's talk about how to make it go well. You
know? So we've got this, this buying journey, you
know, what we call a value ready framework.
And for people listening to the show, the framework is
built on 4 4 key phases. You know? If if
(14:33):
somebody's gonna buy something from you, what we did in our
research and, you know, a lot of primary research, some secondary
research as well is we we coined this framework around the 4
phases. The first phase is you you wanna build trust, and,
there's certain dimensions around that. You need to be credibility
ready, client ready. You gotta gotta do some research and
(14:55):
homework on the client just so you can show up and respect their time,
and then and be relevant right out of the gate. And then you need to
be narrative ready, and that's what that best selling book I was telling you about.
Inspire your buyers, go to market with the story that sizzles is all about, nailing
that narrative. 2nd phase is understand
needs. So you're you're kinda end of the game. You had
(15:16):
credibility, you did your homework, you got a great story that's provocative
and talks about a need for change that that your
buyer can buy into. Then we need to really kinda double down and
understand needs. You know, what's this mean for different stakeholders, the different buyers
that's being buyer ready? How how do you get discovery
ready? How can you go in and ask some really good questions to
(15:38):
really get to the heart of of the total potential value that
that you could be offering? And, then you move into
the phase 3, deliver insights. You know? So you, you know,
did your homework, had that wonderful discovery. Now you're ready to
demonstrate to to all the critical decision makers and stakeholders
where where where that potential value is gonna come from and how that's gonna be
(16:01):
realized. That's how you what we call demonstration ready,
then moving into, what we call justification ready.
That's where, you know, we get our value calculator, ROI calculators, and, of
course, my firm does a a beautiful job of creating
assets like that, tools like that. But how do we help the
buyer quantify the potential value, and
(16:23):
put together a compelling business case? That's what we call justification ready.
That but then you need to move towards the final phase
of drive execution. And this is the stage that's
typically hangs up most deals where, are you
approval ready? One of our affiliates, Neil, he's a
former head of procurement for Levi Strauss. And he said, Bruce, you
(16:46):
wouldn't believe how many vendors would come to us. And they hadn't
even gone through in information security yet. And so, boom, you
know, add add on 2 to 3 months of their sales cycle
just just on that. You know, not not seeing that in advance
and getting in line and making sure that that process goes smoothly
or even procurement process, you know, making sure that procurement gets what
(17:09):
they need, etcetera. That's what we call approval readiness
on, underdrive execution. Then, you know, negotiation
readiness, you know, we we do find that when you have a compelling
total value proposition, that's quantified, that takes
a lot of heat off that pricing discussion, etcetera, and and the
terms, and and that'll help you in being negotiation
(17:31):
ready. And then the final, dimension there under drive
execution is impact ready, where, you and
the buyer agree. How, you know, how are we gonna measure
success? You know, you know, what are the critical few
metrics where we can get data to prove that you and
I moved the dial? And then you and I can feel
(17:54):
good about that if we didn't. Or if something's off, we
can, you know, course correct, you know,
early on and make sure you are realizing the value you
expect or even getting more. And then who knows? Maybe we'll talk about
some other things to create even more value at that point. But how are we
gonna measure for that that first impact success? And
(18:16):
I I've got a whole episode around that. That's that's really wonderful.
So, Neil, we just laid out this value ready framework from build
trust to understand needs, deliver insights, and drive execution.
Now over to you, the expert, talking about,
just the marketing role and impact across this, if you
could. So not just above funnel, not not just demand management,
(18:39):
but all the way through to those closed deals and
value realization. And I think that's it, Bruce. I mean, I
really do. I think I think it is about all the way through. I think
there's a there's a really key phrase for for your listeners here, this this
whole idea of all the way through. Because if you're listening to this from
a marketing or sales perspective and you're really being honest
(19:01):
with yourself, you are not performing. And I'll put myself here. I'll look in the
mirror, and I'll say I'm not performing as much as I know you're not
performing performing guys at the same level with every
single one of these ready factors. You're not. None of
us are. And I think one of the key things here is being brutally honest
with yourself and saying, okay. Where are we falling short? Where are we
(19:22):
actually not delivering where we could be
delivering? Where are we kind of almost being maybe a little bit complacent,
maybe, not as competitive, or maybe just our attention
isn't there. Maybe we're lacking in a process or some kind of level of
systemizing of what we do. So it kinda becomes a little bit wooly, a
little bit flaky, a bit unpredictable, and then there is
(19:45):
a weakness. There's an opportunity for you to kind of really sort of
grasp that and say, right. Here's an improvement opportunity. This is something we
could really focus on maybe for next year or maybe, you know, within this
kind of, improvement cycle that we're going through as we're planning
maybe for the upcoming quarter or whatever it is. So I mean, for me, it
is this whole through journey. We've gotta be thinking about this from a
(20:08):
marketing perspective right from the get go all the way through to
this, as you describe it, Bruce, you know, this building of advocacy, which obviously
comes at the end. The thing I love about this buying journey, the way
that you've constructed this, is that it really does
overlay on top of from a marketing framework, that very simple
three step kind of pipeline, if you like, from a marketing
(20:30):
perspective, which is awareness, conversion, retention.
So we've got a very simple customer journey in marketing that says build
awareness, the right kind of awareness with the right audience,
convert that awareness into some kind of transaction.
Might be monetary, but it doesn't have to be. It could be a change of
behavior or something like that, but you've gotta have a conversion point. And then from
(20:52):
that conversion point, build and retain the relationship
to build loyalty and get advocacy. So I I
just see that beautifully overlaid on this building trust,
understanding the needs, delivering the insights, and driving execution. It is
end to end. That is the beauty of this. And I just wanted
to kind of, I guess, really highlight something that I think for
(21:14):
many of us is kind of missing from this. Because when I
see clients doing this, not every client, some clients are great and some some are
really doing this, but when I see marketers and brands and some of my
clients, they they're kinda they're doing great planning, but it's
all about them. What they're not doing is a word that you've
just said a number of times, Bruce, which is cocreating.
(21:37):
They're not really cocreating this value
that makes them ready at all these points because what they're doing is they're making
assumptions or they're doing a piece of research. They're kind of
jumping the gun and saying, okay. This is what we think is value based on
the research, based on the trends. Oh, so we're gonna put that into the
mix. And then they feel the job is done. What they failed to
(21:58):
do is cocreate that value with the customer
or the prospect. So the way I'm seeing that word
cocreation play out is right the way through this journey,
this buying journey. So from a marketer's perspective, right at the front end
is, okay, well, which channels are we gonna use to warm the
prospect up so that when the salesperson goes in, this person
(22:21):
is ready. They're ready with the credibility because they understand what we
do. They're ready. They understand the base narrative. Okay. The
salesperson can go in and then really go deeper into what that
truly means. But what they're doing is they've been warmed up with a
consistent story, and they're doing that from a cocreation. So
they've listened to previous customers and actually how it's been for
(22:44):
them rather than just jumping and say, hey. We've got this snappy little
campaign. Aren't we clever? Look at the creative and
assuming that that is gonna work. Of course, that's ivory tower
planning. It isn't, you know, based on reality. It's not based
on the perception of your customer or your prospect. Mhmm.
So I just love the way that you phrase that co creation and
(23:05):
collaboration kind of, you know, set of words there because I think
that can play through this whole journey and both
bond the prospect or the customer with the salesperson, but can
also bring marketing into the same mix. And then
that I would see is where marketing and sales can work together
with the prospect or customer to really truly co
(23:27):
create the whole experience. And I think it's where those things aren't joined
up is where we find so much stuff falling through the gaps and those
opportunities then go to waste. Yeah. I mean, is it is that kind of how
you might see it too? Oh, yeah. 100%. Yeah. Very,
very much so. I've got something to interject for you that
I I hope you might enjoy. One of our,
(23:49):
affiliates is out of the UK, Neil, and he,
he's written a number of different books on on value,
but his definition of value is value
is a mystery. And he
plays off the Sherlock Holmes, but he says
that, you know, effectively, it's a mystery until you figure it
(24:12):
out. It it's a it's a puzzle. It it you know? And and you do
that with your customer, not not to them, but with them.
And and, you know, again, back to the cocreate and and
discover together what what that true value really
looks like, the true real value for them in
their context, in their situation. And and what's the
(24:35):
magnitude of that? What's the expectation around that?
And I think, certainly for me, I I kind of extending that on, and I
I love that analogy. I think it's great. It is this whole idea, which, of
course, you know, a lot of us know, in, you know, many commercial
disciplines are starting to really think deeply about, which is this word personalization.
(24:55):
Because, of course, if that is what we're trying to do in terms of value
or experience, in a in the broadest sense, then
personalization is achievable. I mean, it's it's a little bit
of a, you know, pipe dream if all you're doing is a generic kind of
offer from a sales and marketing perspective. But if you truly listen,
if you are helping the customer or the prospect to
(25:17):
discover the value that could be uncovered from the offer that you've
got and you're actually going on that journey together, there's an opportunity
to truly personalize because you're listening, they're listening,
and because you're co creating, it's so personal to them. It
almost by default is personalization. So you don't have to get
clever and scientific. It is by going through this this,
(25:39):
this journey with them that you are actually personalizing. And I I'm really
excited by that because it becomes a reality, something, you know, the
textbooks have said for decades, but never really had the the
perfect storm to realize it. But I think it's here now with this kind of
buying journey. Yeah. For for us, Neil, we're we're,
we're really just trying to impact, yeah, mindset for people to be
(26:01):
thinking about total value experience.
And and then on the notion of personalization,
the the tools that can be brought to bear are
are really incredible, especially now with the, you know, advent
of AI. We ourselves have a tool.
We call it ValueBrief, and, our clients
(26:25):
can use it to effectively get really
good at building trust. So, Neil, that's a a bit,
above marketing, or or how would I
say? It's designed for the individual sellers. But what they can
do is take their prospect, their prospect's LinkedIn
profile, and put that into our
(26:47):
tool, and, it'll help them it'll do all this
background homework and research. You know, look at the quarter learnings
report, and look at the 10 k, the annual report,
and, you know, investor interviews,
conversations. Grab all that content to try to
figure out what's important for that customer, whether they're strategic objectives.
(27:09):
What are they really trying to accomplish? What's their competitive sphere? What
what what's bothering them at this point in time? What's going on in their
world? And then, it'll help
characterize the what you talked about, that base level
narrative that that you could use to that's even tailored
to that prospect, not not just generic off of a
(27:31):
website, but even tailored for that prospect,
getting you into a posture of being narrative ready. So, gosh, just
with the the right mindset and the tools, you you can accomplish so
much, e even right now towards that, you know,
that that mystical, you know, future state of being
of personalization, really making that happen. And then
(27:54):
as you move into that buying journey, you know,
you know, you just do that at a much deeper level, but you've earned the
right to. You've built trust. Now now, you know, you got the
credibility. You know, let's go forward and and and really do
some work together so we can both achieve some incredible
value here. And I think it's it's interesting that you say that
(28:16):
from a, an individual salesperson's perspective that obviously they
can use LinkedIn and go and do that deep research. For from a marketer's
perspective, I could also see that working beautifully in terms of
campaign preparation because if you have your customer persona
profile, you could go through a similar kind of exercise with this
Oh, yeah. Kind of a make believe kind of persona, but we're kind of
(28:38):
almost stereotyping the ideal customer prospect there. And
then going through that same process with the AIs
to, you know, formulate a, you know, a proposition or
formulate some kind of value campaign in a
similar kind of way. I I could certainly see that working for marketers too. Well,
it it needs to happen. We do work on the marketing side of the house
(29:00):
as well. Because at the end of the day, for for a compelling
total value experience, you need to have a through line, you
know, through marketing, sales, product support.
Everybody needs to be on that same wavelength, on that same
signal. But, you know, like you said, you know, you have a base level
narrative, but then you need to really tailor it for that
(29:22):
customer and and tailor that value proposition for that
customer. So so they can, you know, see that and and
believe in that and and buy and and realize that that
potential value. So, yeah, everybody's involved. I,
I had the CRO, former CRO of Tableau,
on on the show just literally last week.
(29:46):
And when we built their narrative for them, their pre IPO
narrative, they they have their IPO for about a $1,000,000,000, and
then after that, salesforce.com bought them. So all my clients
are multimillionaires now, Neil. So they're in a in a happy place
financially anyways. But
once we built that narrative, it became a whole company narrative,
(30:09):
from the chairman to product, service,
professional services, every everybody, sales,
everybody went through training around the narrative, so they
could all be on that narrative. You know, because you gotta be
consistent at at the end of the day. Of course, as a professional
marketer, you know that, you know, the power of consistency and showing up
(30:30):
and really owning your position. But, you know, that needs to go
flow all the way through. And I guess that also translates
not only internally within your own team, but also from the
customer's perspective because if you have a multilayer
or multilevel sell going on. So you might be talking to a large corporate or
multinational where, you know, you have a number of different disciplines that this
(30:53):
value proposition or this value ready kind of journey needs
to play out in. So you might be talking to the finance director. You might
be talking to sales or, you know, the the operations team or
whatever. There there's also a little, sort of, you know, interplay going
on there where you need to customize almost this value
story, if you like, or this narrative for individual disciplines.
(31:15):
And it has to be consistent, so you have that thread playing through it. But
also then it has to be, you know, very targeted towards each
individual discipline, because they'll translate it differently, won't they? I
mean, this is the thing is you've gotta be quite fleet of foot here. This
isn't just a a one time exercise, and it will apply every time you do
it. You've gotta be really awake, haven't you, as a business professional now?
(31:39):
Absolutely. And also, if your organization like, I've done a ton of
work with Microsoft, and about 90% of their revenue flows through their partners,
their, strategic partners, value added resellers, etcetera.
Huge component of their go to market success has been around,
enabling their partner community. But, that that's just another
(32:00):
degree of, understanding and complexity that gets woven
into this. You know, a lot of those partners, they have their own secret
sauce that they add into the equation, and that needs to be part of the
narrative and and and the the the value
quantification, etcetera. You know, that that needs to be, you
know, in the eye of the partner as as a beholder as they take it
(32:22):
to their customers, the beholder, and and that creates another
level of complexity and opportunity for getting that right.
And I suppose what it's doing, just kinda thinking that through to to
almost to to view the the conclusion of that kind of,
sort of idea and way of thinking is it it kinda reduces risk,
doesn't it? Because if you have a a big, you know, kind of
(32:45):
supply chain, value chain that you're creating here, somebody like Microsoft,
obviously, it is huge. But even for a smaller organization
where, you know, you you might be in partial control
over how your messages are getting out and particularly if you have resellers,
etcetera, what this kind of approach is doing is it's
making it more predictable. It's making it more robust. It's making it more
(33:07):
consistent so that when anybody who may be interested as
a prospect sees or hears this storytelling, which is really
what we're talking about in communication, it comes through in a
consistent way. It isn't that salesperson a is gonna have a
very different take versus salesperson b. They're going to have
some consistency. So we're building brands here, aren't we, for the
(33:30):
long term? We're not just doing the sell in the short term. This is something
that's got real longevity to it, isn't it? Oh,
absolutely. And when done right, it it can, you know, really be the the
revenue accelerator. You know, that that's the sad thing. I see so
few organizations truly investing in this. You know, they might
invest a lot in r and d, but not r and d around, you know,
(33:51):
their narrative and how they go to market, for sure. And
then, you know, things get even more slippery, you know, even
past that, you know, front end of building trust and awareness. But, you know,
how how how that whole b to b, you know, buyer sales
journey transpires, that that gets super slippery as well.
Big opportunity for everybody to, to move forward
(34:15):
in a more orchestrated fashion, more consistent, more
impactful. Big opportunity.
Well, we've, we've covered a lot, and this has
been super fun. Of course, we're both passionate about it.
But what else would you say, Neil? Just final thoughts for us
as we think about this whole idea of, you know, the total value
(34:36):
experience and and the marketing orientation towards that. Anything
else that you could offer? Yeah. I mean, I think I mean,
it's just, I mean, you know, driven a lot by kind of your your
philosophy, Bruce, which is this whole thing about marketing the sizzle.
I I think within this kind of a framework, I think
part of the sizzle that comes through here is education, the word education.
(34:59):
Because I think for a lot of prospects and particularly existing
customers, if you can educate them with a lowercase e, I'm
not talking about preaching. I'm not talking about necessarily teaching. But as
part of that collaboration, as part of that cocreation,
if you can be educating them with opportunities, educate
them with, you know, the market trends, actually make their business
(35:22):
life easier to do business within. You're gonna make them
feel great. They're gonna perceive that you're giving them value because you
are, and it's gonna build that kind of that level of trust
that goes way, way beyond the sell. It goes way, way beyond the
marketing. This is actually about true human to human connection.
And so when they see your email come into their busy inbox or they see
(35:44):
your call caller ID coming up on their phone, they know they're
gonna get value, so they'll take that call or they'll look at your email first.
And I think if you're kind of helping them on that journey of looking good
and feeling good, then that is true value because, otherwise,
it is still transactional, if we're being honest.
I'm so glad you said that. That was part of the genesis of why we
(36:07):
called our company value pros dot I o.
Because, you know, if the buyer looks at the the telephone,
the the caller ID knows it's the sales guy. Run.
Don't answer it. Go straight to voice mail. But if they if they perceive
that as, oh, there's the value pro giving me a call
ready to create value for us. That's exciting. I'll take that one. You know,
(36:29):
that that that was our whole genesis and orientation around
this. Funny enough. Really? Well, you see, it's almost like I knew, but I didn't
genuinely listen as I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it's clearly
working, and it clearly does work. That's great. Because we wanted we also
wanted to help, sellers, oh, re
identify themselves. I'm not a seller. I'm a value pro. That
(36:51):
that's why I exist. I I help I I bring the value. I
I really help my clients achieve that value, and and and
I love getting my clients promoted because they made the right decision, but I
really wanna help out. It's all about the value.
So So I suppose, yeah, kind of a final sort of thought that kind of
plugs into that one as well is, I I guess, it's a bit little bit
(37:13):
of a challenge really both for marketers and for salespeople is,
can you actually provide value without ever mentioning your product or
service? Can you actually go into a meeting and not
talk about your product or service at all? And the customer then
thinks, wow, that was a great meeting. Because if you can do that, I think
then we're starting to hook into what value truly is because it isn't your
(37:35):
product or service. And that's the hardest thing, but it's the best thing to
focus on. Yeah. Yeah. Nope. I love it. Well, I
hate that's a mic drop moment. I I wanna leave on that thought. That's a
lovely, lovely provocation. So, Neil, just
wanna highlight for people how to get in touch with you.
For people watching this, Neil has one of the coolest looking
(37:58):
LinkedIn profiles I've seen. It's beautiful. And if
if you need to be in a happy place, go look up Neil's profile.
It'll immediately immediately, calm you.
I'll promise you that. And then, when you look for Neil, it's Neil
Wilkins x. And Neil does bring the x
factor, so that that's very valid. But, Neil Wilkins x
(38:20):
is the right Neil, and and notice that he's a a very
beautiful man with a very calming profile.
Also, Neil, let's talk about your podcast a little bit. Can you
tell us a little bit about the focus of it? Yeah. The
focus is for anybody with some entrepreneurial spirit. And what
I mean by that is you could be business developer. You could be an
(38:42):
account handler. You could be a marketer. Anybody who's in a
commercial sense or looking to differentiate and and do things
differently and and truly add value. So it's very aligned with the conversation
that we've had here today. So if you are looking to develop both
professionally and personally, get some very interesting guests on here
who will be, yeah, kind of just giving you some lifestyle, not
(39:05):
hacks. I think that kind of devalues it, but kind of yeah. They're doing
wholesome business. Somebody described it as this is wholesome, isn't it?
Wholesome as in holistic, but wholesome as in just good business
and and being a good human in in a commercial sense. So I love
that, and that's certainly the kind of, kind of guest that we tend to
see on the on the podcast. Awesome. Well,
(39:27):
Neil, thanks so much for your time, your consideration, and
and bringing the your whole self to this and creating a wholesome experience
for these listener today. Really appreciate it.
Thank you, Bruce. And I've been an absolute pleasure again. Well,
today's conversation with Neil Wilkins was a masterclass in
aligning marketing efforts with customer centric
(39:48):
value. We discussed how cocreation, personalization,
and collaboration can transform the entire
customer journey into an impactful total
value experience. One of my key takeaways is
Neil's challenge to us all. Can we deliver value
without even mentioning our products? That
(40:10):
truly resonated with me as a profound shift in how we
approach customer engagement. So if you enjoyed this
episode, please like and subscribe to the ValuePro show.
If you're feeling kind, leave a review so others can find and
enjoy it too. Thanks so much and keep on selling value.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.