February 11, 2025 • 33 mins
Join host Bruce Scheer and guest Andrew McMasters as they reveal the secrets to enhancing the buying experience through deep, intentional listening. In this episode, discover why mastering listening skills can set sales professionals apart and drive better business outcomes.
- Explore why buyers often value the experience over the product itself.
- Discover how deep listening can help sales professionals differentiate themselves.
- Learn about the impact of biases and solution-oriented listening on effective communication.
- Understand how to engage with buyers by tapping into their core needs and emotions.
- Gain insights on balancing speaking and listening to improve sales conversations.
00:00 ""Elevating the Buying Experience""
05:10 Power of Effective Listening
07:22 ""Listening Beyond Preconceptions""
12:30 Uncovering Hidden Buyer Needs
16:39 Optimal Conversation Balance in Sales
17:24 Empowering Listener During Demos
21:55 Compassion Melts Fearful Anger
24:42 ""Emotion vs. Logic in Decision-Making""
30:08 ""Improv Techniques in Sales""
32:15 ""The Power of Listening in Sales""
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the ValuePro Show, where value pros get value
ready.
Hi. My name is Bruce Scheer, the host of the ValuePro Show. In this episode,
we are talking with Andrew McMasters, a leadership and
communication expert with over twenty five years of experience.
Andrew is the founder of Jet City Improv here in the Seattle area
(00:24):
and has worked with Fortune 500 companies to help teams
communicate more effectively, strengthen their leadership, and build
trust. He's also the author of Listening Without Agenda,
a book that explores how deep, intentional listening
can transform relationships and business success. So today,
we're diving into how listening, truly listening, can
(00:47):
elevate the buying experience. We'll explore why buyers
prioritize experience over product, how sales professionals
can differentiate themselves by mastering deep listening,
and how they can overcome the biggest mistakes that get in the way of
effective communication. Let's dive in. Well,
Andrew, thank you so much for coming back to the show. Gosh, I
(01:09):
think it's been, Andrew, probably three, four years since we
did our last episode over at the Columbia Tower. I remember it
like it was yesterday. Just absolutely loved it. Our topic is around
improv and, hey, things digitally kinda have a long
lifespan, and people can still check that out after this show
if you'd like. You know, there's another episode of Andrew from a few years
(01:31):
back. Yeah. Still as relevant as ever on improv.
This topic for today, we're gonna be talking about how do
we listen to elevate the buying experience.
And so, my firm, valuepros.io, we've done a ton of
research and we've come up with 10 key pillars that
you can influence to drive a better buying experience.
(01:55):
And this one statistic by SBI just really holds
true. You know, what what's the customer buying at the end of the
day? The offering or the experience? And which
one of the two has the greater weight on the purchase
decision? Well, if it's a high consideration bold decision,
the experience rates at 59 of the
(02:18):
influence on that buying decision over the offering itself, which is only
41%. So you gotta get the experience right if
you wanna win more deals more often and a little bit faster and, you know,
everything spins right when you have a better buying experience and and so
many don't. Andrew, there's another statistic that
75% of buyers prefer to have a sales
(02:40):
free experience. Wow. Yeah.
I'll pause there for a second and let that land hard.
And I mean, the bar is so dang low,
and that's a Gartner statistic, by the way. The bar is so dang
low for, value professionals to stand
apart and drive a better experience. Now listening is a
(03:03):
key element and key driver of being able to do so.
And, Andrew, your book couldn't come at a better time. It's just perfect. When
I when I saw it, I lit up, like, going, fuck yeah. You know, I
I really didn't do it because I I know I got issues. You can see
me rattling on right now. But, you know, we all
need to do a better job of listening, especially as it relates to this better
(03:24):
buying experience. Selling's tough. It's even harder this
today than it was yesterday, and listening is just
such a key factor in this whole thing. So, again, you
wrote you wrote a fantastic book, Listening Without
an Agenda. Got my copy right here. It's become my best
friend. Thank you for popping this over to me, Andrew. Really appreciate
(03:47):
it. But, let us know just, why you wrote
the book. Yeah. You know, I it's interesting you were just
talking about that, but one of the things when I'm working with sales professionals, I
say sometimes the market differentiation that you have is the
fact that you actually show up as a real person as opposed to the
other salespeople who don't. And so, you know, in a lot of ways, sometimes that
(04:09):
market differentiation is you. So anyway Well,
especially in this era of AI, man. Yeah. Even
even more so. Yeah. It's gonna be a critical x factor.
If if done right, but then also it's gonna be a z
factor if done wrong. And, again, 75% of sellers
You know? So, yeah, there there's a a low bar. We can do so much
(04:32):
better. But, yeah, continue. Tell us that. What drove your passion for writing
this thing? Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I was talking with
a bunch of people about what I do and really kind of defining the mission
and vision of the work that I've been doing on stage and with clients
for a while. And someone had just said to me, you know, it sounds
to me like you're helping people listen. And that it took me back. I
(04:54):
wasn't prepared for that. And then I started to look at it through that
lens and went, yeah. I think that's where a lot of pieces are,
which then reminded me of things like, my mother before she had
passed away, was part of hearing.
And so she was having difficulty understanding what people were
saying. And I noticed that if I could just sit and
(05:17):
get something across to her and then she would talk, but just let go of
my need to speak, talk about
myself, share anything, and just be available and listen.
It changed her perception and she felt included.
And so between that and then some of the work I was working with clients
too. I mean, and I I had moments with clients where people said, I just
(05:40):
suddenly realized I don't listen to anyone. And then and as
I used to say that in the book, even, like, people who said, I can't
wait to get home and talk to my kids. You know, that
realization from people of what is it like to
effectively listen, it jazzes me. That
just jazzes me. That's that's amazing. It it really
(06:01):
is. Yeah. One of my, my mom, Andrew,
she was recognized by president Ronald Reagan at the
time of being one of the top administrators in
in the whole country. And she was an administrator,
principal of a grade school. And, when I talk
to people about her, why she was such an amazing
(06:24):
leader, just, in her personal life
and in her professional life, her her her ability to
listen was probably her x factor. She
really focused, zeroed in, and let people know
that they what they had to say was incredibly important to her,
and she was there connecting with them. Just just
(06:46):
amazing as a role model, as a great listener.
Yeah. I think good teachers are great. I mean, both of my
parents were teachers as well. Good teachers are really those people that you
go, oh, wow. They were here for me. They they it
felt like they understood you on a deeper level. Yeah.
That's amazing. Congratulations to your mom. That's great. Thank
(07:08):
you, Andrew. Well, hey. Jumping in, I know,
one of the concepts that you were telling me about is listening without
an agenda. Can you open up our dialogue and just explain a
little bit about that for us? Yeah. I mean, just to
kind of describe to you the way it sort of works on on brain
science a little bit is, on your,
(07:30):
your left side of your brain, your prefrontal cortex is where it's
aware you're bringing in information. So this is where you're hearing that
data, seeing, listening, smelling, tasting, all of
that. And then on the left side is where you're categorizing it against
what you already know. And so the difficulty is is that I think a lot
of us will hear something and then immediately go to the categorization and say, oh,
(07:52):
I know something about this, or here's this, or and we anchor it based
on what our previous experiences are as opposed to
staying in discovery and saying, oh, what
else? And and what am I missing? And is there
something else there? So in a lot of ways, that sort of listening without
agenda is it's how our brain operates. I mean, we
(08:14):
are we're operating with kind of, older technology here
than what we deal within our world. So how do we use the older
technology and understand where its downfalls might be? And I
think that's where kind of listening without an agenda rather than what
do I wanna get across, what am I trying to say, what is my point.
It's, well, what's happening here, and am I really understanding what's
(08:38):
happening? That's the difficulty. How do you turn off that switch
where you, go from left to right and start processing like you
were saying, you know, where you start to not listen. You're
you're more, you know, talking yourself in your head and assimilating.
How how do you break that that pattern? That's a it's a hard
one to break. And and I am I'm a firm believer too of I
(09:00):
can't tell myself to not do something. Like, the
example is if I tell you don't think of a pink elephant, what happens? Right?
Yeah. You're thinking of a pink elephant. Right. So we have to give our
brain a task, which is, okay, as
I'm hearing what you're saying, I am going to be able to put it into
five words and feed it back to you, reflective listening, the work of Carl Rogers.
(09:22):
So when we start thinking in those terms of giving ourselves a
task, something to do, that can help keep us present.
Okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. It's fun. Thanks for breaking that
down. That that's great. And then, let let's
get into it maybe a little bit further here. Just, what other
common mistakes do you see, biggest mistakes as it relates to listening,
(09:45):
and what do we do about that? I well, I
mean, kind of what we just talked about too, those sort of biases or
preconceived notions is one of the first things that comes into play.
The other thing is, I mean, talking about how the brain is wired.
And I I work with a neuroscientist, my friend Andre Golard, and he's
quoted throughout the entire book. We we listen and
(10:07):
we bring in data points, And then we take those data points
and we draw through lines between them. So we are problem
solving machines. The biggest thing that I think is
one of the biggest mistakes that we have is we tend to always
listen for where's the problem and how do I solve it. Especially,
I mean, think about it as sales professionals. That's what we're trained to
(10:30):
do. You know? Good. We we think in terms of I'm hearing your problem,
and then I have a solution, so I'm gonna throw you the solution. As
opposed to, is that really the problem? Have I
asked more questions about the problem? What's the real problem
below? However, our brain immediately dives onto the, oh,
I have a solution. Oh, I have a solution. Oh, I have a solution. Yeah.
(10:51):
So it's, it's kinda getting there too fast as opposed to
staying in discovery. That's one of the biggest mistakes.
Absolutely. That so makes sense to me. Yeah. It is that shallow
listening probably gets to those, oh, correlated
factors or symptoms of a problem. But if you stay
in that listening mode, you can get to level two, level three into a deeper
(11:13):
understanding what's some what's some of the causal factors
of a of a problem state? And and then, you know,
then at that point, perhaps, offering your wisdom and and
and path for success with a solution, but but not too early.
Is that the point? Or Yeah. Not too early because, again, as you said, if
I'm responding to solutions, then the truth is I'm just playing whack a
(11:36):
mole. I'm I'm putting a Band Aid on a
symptom, and I'm not actually getting to what that deep need is.
I mean, for sales professionals, especially everyone here,
if we are not addressing that deep sort of emotional what's in it
for me point, then we're not gonna have that
person sold. So we really need to keep listening,
(11:58):
keep listening, keep listening. What is that root issue? How do we
find that? How do I reflect it back? What does that mean? What does
it feel like? That's where we have to get into that deep in
listening. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Yep. For
sure. I I love it. Hey. I have a quick question I had on my
mind. How do you help your buyer get
(12:20):
into a deep listening mode? That's kinda weird.
But, is there a way to help somebody else listen a little bit better as
well? You know, it it's a it's gonna be
that piece again as I said, because everyone's coming in with a parameter of how
they listen and what they're listening for. I think especially for a
buyer, it's like, I have this need,
(12:43):
so I'm listening for it. And the question that I always have for
sales professional is, what is that need that they didn't even know they
had? That now you're positioning what your services
are for a deeper need that was underneath that need. Yes. I'm
speaking to this need, but let's actually go deeper. What else is going on?
Example was working with people a little while ago, and, what we got
(13:06):
to was that they were so busy, they couldn't get home to actually
see any of their children's soccer games. And so then it was
that whole idea of once we found that out, it was how do we position
this product in order to save you the time so you can get home to
spend time with your family. Yeah. And that's that's where
we start to get to the real issue that's below it, the need, that,
(13:28):
that piece. I don't I don't know how we get buyers to do
that, but I think as sales professionals, it's our job to sort of continue to
keep that discovery and keep it going. Yeah. One of the best examples of that,
I was on a call and, the chief revenue officer, a new
chief revenue officer showed up. And I I was in the selling
capacity, and she was the executive. And,
(13:51):
it was kind of interesting. I was talking to I was texting with one
of my colleagues who was on the call with me, and we both
agreed she was just in staccato mode.
She was just, you know, throwing things, you know, at at
us, you know, thoughts and ideas and staccato,
but but not coherent and and,
(14:13):
and and I learned through that.
She was very stressed out and under
fire. And, one another colleague on there was,
like, going, hey. Need to halt just for a minute.
These two guys that are here are intensely,
deeply experienced in this area. Let's
(14:36):
listen to them for a little bit and see what they have
to say. And so he, you know, as a
peer, said, hey. Let let's halt.
Now let's listen. So and and that technique, we didn't,
she didn't say, hey. Screw you guys. We're dying. She hung in
there, and we did work with her, which was nice.
(15:00):
But we we it it was a pattern interrupt at that point.
So I I think I don't know. In that instance, you know, we were able
to help her listen to us, but, yeah, I don't know what the
what the right approach is. I it worked in that situation.
There's there's a tool that's in the book that I talk about, which is listening
for values. Mhmm. And what I found too is that tends to
(15:23):
be one where in that feeling where you're feeling like
the the buyer is just not, you know, wow. It's just not it's not getting
through. I'm not sure what it is. To start to say, what I'm
hearing is is that this is what you really care about.
You know, what I'm hearing is that fairness is something that's really important to you.
Tell me if I'm hearing that correctly. And I have found that when we start
(15:45):
talking about values, what's below what's going on,
immediately the conversation gets deeper and that person sort of calms in a
little bit. So it's it's, again, one of those little tiny
tricks of and I mean, not trick. It's a tool for how do I get
to the deeper listening. So maybe that's the way to help the buyer is
Yeah. Yeah. And if they aren't really listening to understand and, you know,
(16:07):
they're they're feeling respected, then they'll probably turn around and do that with you as
well. Hey. That was another idea I had.
I was asking you earlier, what what's the right pacing
between speaking and listening? And,
we you know, one one thing we discussed, you know, there was a
Gong.i0 study out of their Gong Research Labs.
(16:29):
They looked at thousands and thousands of sales calls. And
for executives, Andrew, they found that the
pacing should be fifty fifty. So at the at the end of that
conversation and with an executive speaking with you, it
should they should have spoken for 50% of the time and and listened for
50% of the time just like you, the seller. Now a a
(16:52):
junior person, maybe an influencer to the buying decision, maybe not
making the actual decision at the end of the day, the economic decision,
but, you know, a big influencer, maybe they're doing the technology review.
At that instance, you know, maybe this seller speaks a little bit
more demoing the product and doing different things answering, you know,
pointed questions, of that person. Maybe about seventy
(17:14):
thirty is what, the Gong IO lab study,
determined. Any thoughts or reflections on that in terms of just
pacing? Yeah. I think even even
in those situations where you will be doing the demo on pieces,
what I've coached people for as well as to how do
I let the listener know that they are still in charge
(17:37):
in a lot of ways. A big example was, like, here's the
agenda and here's the things. I'd love for you just to tell me what's what's
the most important thing here to you. And then you
know what? Based on that, we're gonna start there. So
I'm I'm signaling that it's really about you and it's what's most
important to you even though I'm the one who's gonna be describing it.
(18:00):
Because, yeah, what I don't wanna do is show up and throw up, you know,
like, which which happens as you said. I I
think the way I love to think of it is it actually happens out of
exuberance. I care so much about what I'm doing, what
I'm selling the product. I believe in it so much that I just
you know? It it needs to be a dialogue, as you
(18:21):
said, fifty fifty. It needs to be about the other person. Yeah. I'll
make you laugh a little bit, hopefully. I was just playing around with a little
movie clip. I I might wanna use it. But, do you remember the song circle
of life? Oh, yeah. Where the monkey, you know, is there
take take takes the baby and then brings it up on high.
Yeah. That's so cool. I think a lot of
(18:43):
sellers show up with that exuberance, but, there's a term that
we use often. You know? Choose your own adventure and,
allowing the buyer, hey. You know, we could look at a, b, or c. What
what are you thinking about? Well, definitely c. That's really important
to me. Okay. Let's push into that. You know? So Right. You know, let that
choose your path. You're making those options available. So it is that
(19:05):
collaborative dialogue and and listening and and talking.
Yeah. What the willingness to let go, at that point
too. I'm willing to let go of what my agenda is in order
to say what's important for you. Wonderful. Let's go that
direction. Nice callback to listen without an agenda. That's
perfect. Just saying. I'm just saying. That's right. I saw what you did. Hey,
(19:29):
well, any other big mistakes that you're seeing out there that could
get in the way of a a better buying experience?
I think there is a lot too where I I kind of get people to
sort of look at more than just what they're hearing.
Reflecting back what they're hearing, trying to go to the deeper part of it.
It's also then just being aware that what you're seeing
(19:51):
is an entire picture. And and that, I think, is is just
kind of important for people to understand that sometimes that message is coming
across physically, emotionally,
in other ways rather than just the verbal words the person's saying. So
your job as a sales professional is to see that whole picture.
Absolutely. Gosh. Dang. Look at you.
(20:16):
Perfect. For people on the YouTube show, I'm showing
a picture of an iceberg, you know, which has part of the iceberg out of
the water, the part that the Titanic hits probably, and then and then
there's part an under the water as well. And,
your your point about listening for the whole picture
reminds me, Andrew, of a story, my sister-in-law.
(20:39):
She, was a medical doctor
specializing in in premature births.
And, she was in the hospital one day
and, a father came up to her
and absolutely red faced,
(21:00):
started into a verbal assault, and just said, you
guys are not doing what you, you know, you're screwing up here.
I noticed this. Just furious and shouting
and and really creating total drama.
It cat capturing all the attention of everyone around the waiting
room and beyond shouting, totally
(21:22):
angry. And, luckily, my
sister-in-law had been into a lot of workshops with a
guru called, Marshall Rosenberg who founded
Nonviolent Communications. So she
watched all that anger and, started
thinking about it a little bit as well and then
(21:45):
realized, okay. His need is is
for, you know, safety for his child, and
that's why he's flipping out. Yeah. And,
then she responded to him saying, sir,
I just have to, you know, promise you we're doing
everything possible to help your baby. And
(22:08):
and it's a very tough situation, but just know
all our attention and focus is on this at this
point in time. I I wish for you not to be as worried. I
know that's hard, but, and, the guy
just melted and just started weeping at that point. The anger was
gone. You know, of course, behind anger is typically fear,
(22:31):
but, you know, that that's where
she literally listened to the the total iceberg. You know,
what was above the surface, all that anger, and then all that fear
and insecurity below the water, to to
really help that person process and move forward.
Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's a great example of,
(22:53):
again, the full listening. What I'm hearing is this
yelling and diatribe, but what's happening down below is that fear,
the, you know, the awful feeling of my child
being sick. Oh, you know? Yeah. That's that's
that's the kind. There's, there's one to show you here too. Oh,
yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite toys.
(23:15):
I kinda keep this here just to if I do hear some
things like that, for everybody listening, I just showed a
a doll that had a really, really scary face. Yeah. But I
I have that as a little prop on my desk, just just in case I'm
talking to someone and things are getting weird. Sometimes I can look
at that and go, you know, some something's probably behind that. Let let's
(23:38):
figure it out. Yeah. There's, there's a
story that I use in the book too that talks about, one of, actually, one
of my backers for the book and one of my friends used to work at
a suicide hotline. And what they always told them was to
match the intensity that someone came in with, because if
people were like, I'm upset, and you went, well, let's calm down. It actually got
(23:59):
people more upset. So it was letting them know that you emotionally
understood where they are. Like, wow. Alright. There's something going on
here. Let's talk about it because now when we talk about it, we can actually
move you down. And and I've used that before. I mean, it sounds like
a lot like what your sister-in-law was dealing with too. Like, it's the
there's something here, and I have to match the intensity of that to
(24:21):
go. There is wow. We're gonna help you, and we're gonna
and and sometimes if people don't feel that emotional connection
as well as the verbal piece, they don't think the message is there.
Absolutely. And you've probably seen the, oh, this wisdom
maxim that people buy on emotion
(24:42):
Yes. And then they justify with logic. And even with my
firm, ValuePro, so focused on business value, where's the real
value? How do we quantify that? That still gets into
the rational side of things, and and and we know the
emotion drives that. But then also that's the evidence they need to go and
sell, but very often the emotion drives that. So,
(25:05):
you know, back to that sister-in-law story, she was
listening for the emotion. So and specifically, what were the
feelings in that emotion? Well, anger, you know, and and, you know,
being scared and, you know, really tapping into some of those
feelings. But then underneath those feelings, what are the
needs that aren't being met? And then and
(25:26):
then, you know, if we cannot identify that, then we can diffuse and
and move forward. Same thing when you're dealing and selling and buying
conversations. You can listen for that.
And and a lot of, like you said, yes. I've got my data, and I've
got everything in place, and I can show you exactly what this is gonna do.
And that's wonderful. Rationally, I want it. Now all
(25:48):
of a sudden, I've realized that if I get it, I get more time back,
and I get to go see my kid's soccer game. Now
we've got a real I don't know. Wow. You know? Now we've got a full
package. I am emotionally attached to it. I'm, you know,
I'm intellectually attached to it. It's a full package.
Yeah. Absolutely. Well Oh, gosh. Gosh. I'm glad we talked
(26:09):
about that. That's really important. What other practicals
maybe even just give us some highlights from the book on on some things to
focus on. Yeah. I I think the biggest thing is
and the idea for the book too is just to bring awareness to what we
are doing when we're naturally listening. Every one of us has learned to
(26:31):
listen from our experiences growing up, people who were around
us, people who helped to raise us. And so our listening is
affected by that. It really is about, let's be aware of
how I'm listening. The biggest next step that I recommend for
people is, be aware of where you're solutioning. I
think, a lot of the people that I deal with, a lot of, executives,
(26:53):
especially, will come home at night and, you know, their spouse says something
to them. They say, oh, okay. You know how to fix this. Let me tell
you. And they're immediately responding to everything with solutions, you
know. Their kid mentioned something about school and they're like, okay. Well, here's what you
gotta do. Maybe it's not about solutioning in this moment. Maybe it's
more about, wow, that sounds like that was difficult. Tell me more.
(27:14):
So being aware of sometimes solutioning isn't the
only option. Maybe sometimes making an emotional connection or
just even listening and going, wow, I understand being a sounding board for
someone. There are lots of different ways. The first step is sort
of let's become aware of how we listen, and then let's try
to incorporate what might be different styles or methodologies.
(27:36):
Yeah. No. I love it. Have you seen the, YouTube video, fork
in the head? Oh, yes. Yeah.
That's really funny. Yeah. I have such a headache. Well, maybe it's because of the
stop telling me. Yeah. I did. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Stop telling me what to do. You know, you're not listening. But there's
a but there's a a fork that's right. No. It's not like a belt. Yeah.
(27:59):
No. I I like it, but but it is true. You know, people, you know,
are probably gonna be more willing to listen to you when they understand that you
care. Remember that old maxim, oh, people don't care how much
you know until they know how much you care? Yep. Yeah. That that
gets into listening. Yeah. Where you really need to
you need to demonstrate that you care. Yeah. Absolutely. And
(28:21):
listening is just so powerful in doing that. Also liked in your
book, sometimes we get into little, you know,
trickery and techniques around listening. Oh, Andrew, you just said that. Just a
second, I'm gonna, you know, lean my head down and write that note down so
you see that I'm listening. And, I I I like
your point of view, and maybe you could illustrate that for us, but that might
(28:43):
not be the best approach. Not really. I I
mean, again, I I feel like there's a lot of there's a lot of performative
sort of skills that people have given it. I see a lot in public
speaking. When I'm teaching people for public speaking, they're like, make sure you
walk. Don't move your hands much. Don't do this. Again, it's the
don't do this. Don't think of a pink elephant. Mhmm. As opposed to
(29:05):
give yourself something that's gonna be clear. If it helps you to write
something down, then write it down. And also then
as I say, be clear with people and name it and claim it and say,
I'm sorry. I just wanna make a couple notes here. Just so you know when
I'm disconnecting. I just because I wanna remember it. Be
clear with people. That clarity, I think, is what
(29:27):
makes that emotional connection. Yeah. And that genuineness, that authenticity.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just in doing a different perspective. Every person. I I
mean, I think we all listen with our own
biases, our own ideas, and our own way of listening. So for each
individual, we have to figure out what works best for us. The tools and exercises
in the in the book are really more of the how do you gain your
(29:49):
own authentic awareness of what works for you so that then
you can be present for others. Sweet. Sweet.
On that note, I just say, you know, any you know, in conclusion
for this episode anyways, Andrew, there's so much to learn from you. But
anything else you wanna leave us with before we round out?
You know, I I would feel remiss as the improv guy since we did this
(30:12):
before, to not sort of mention how some of those skills come in, which is
just the the whole idea in improv of accepting and building. I I
hear something, I say yes to it, and then I build on it.
And to me, that also falls directly into listening skills. Even
when your client that you're talking to, the buyer says, well, this is
my reality. Even if you know it's not true, you go, oh, wow. Well,
(30:34):
tell me more about that. I need to accept wherever their reality
is and then build on it in order to basically get to the spot
where I need to get to. So when you deny someone's reality,
you've lost the sale immediately. So I think that yes
and idea still falls into place, especially with effective listening and
with any kind of, of any any sort of buyer journey.
(30:57):
And what a beautiful callback to the episode we did on that, which was perfect.
You know? Check that one out. Alright. Yeah. Please. Yeah. It's it's in the archive
of the Value Pro Show for everybody listening and watching. You know, check it out.
And, Andrew, you know, former founder, of Jet
City Improv here in Seattle area, very successful and has
done a wonderful job at teaching sellers how to yes and
(31:19):
in a very profound way. Thank you. Yeah. And I still have your rubber band
for snapping myself. Yeah. There it is. Right there. Yes,
and. Very cool. Well, just wanna
highlight for folks, Andrew's book's out on Amazon
where you can get it listening without agenda. And, you know,
so please, grab a copy. It's a great book. And,
(31:42):
Andrew, I'd recommend everybody connect with you on LinkedIn. You know, just
check out the beautiful photo on the, profile. Great
banner, by the way. I really like how you set all that up. But, Thank
you. Yeah. For everyone, connect with Andrew on LinkedIn.
And on that note, Andrew, I just really wanna thank you for joining the
show. Thank you. I also wanna hold up the thank you for your
(32:04):
book. Yay. With the best
seller sticker, yes. Heck, yeah. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
You're next, man. We gotta do this. Alright. Alright. Well, thank
you, Andrew. Thanks for the time. Thank you. What a conversation
with Andrew McMasters. We covered some powerful insights on the role
of listening and sales and leadership, how to move beyond
(32:27):
solutioning, stay in discovery mode, and really
understand a buyer's needs. One of my biggest takeaways,
people don't just buy products, they buy experiences.
And listening, when it's done right, creates a
buying experience that sets you apart. So if you enjoyed this
episode, please like and subscribe to the ValuePro Show. And if you're
(32:49):
feeling kind, leave a review so others can find and enjoy
it too. Thanks, and wishing you success and good listening.
Welcome to the ValuePro Show, where value pros get value
ready.
Hi. My name is Bruce Scheer, the host of the ValuePro Show. In this episode,
we are talking with Andrew McMasters, a leadership and
communication expert with over twenty five years of experience.
Andrew is the founder of Jet City Improv here in the Seattle area
(00:24):
and has worked with Fortune 500 companies to help teams
communicate more effectively, strengthen their leadership, and build
trust. He's also the author of Listening Without Agenda,
a book that explores how deep, intentional listening
can transform relationships and business success. So today,
we're diving into how listening, truly listening, can
(00:47):
elevate the buying experience. We'll explore why buyers
prioritize experience over product, how sales professionals
can differentiate themselves by mastering deep listening,
and how they can overcome the biggest mistakes that get in the way of
effective communication. Let's dive in. Well,
Andrew, thank you so much for coming back to the show. Gosh, I
(01:09):
think it's been, Andrew, probably three, four years since we
did our last episode over at the Columbia Tower. I remember it
like it was yesterday. Just absolutely loved it. Our topic is around
improv and, hey, things digitally kinda have a long
lifespan, and people can still check that out after this show
if you'd like. You know, there's another episode of Andrew from a few years
(01:31):
back. Yeah. Still as relevant as ever on improv.
This topic for today, we're gonna be talking about how do
we listen to elevate the buying experience.
And so, my firm, valuepros.io, we've done a ton of
research and we've come up with 10 key pillars that
you can influence to drive a better buying experience.
(01:55):
And this one statistic by SBI just really holds
true. You know, what what's the customer buying at the end of the
day? The offering or the experience? And which
one of the two has the greater weight on the purchase
decision? Well, if it's a high consideration bold decision,
the experience rates at 59 of the
(02:18):
influence on that buying decision over the offering itself, which is only
41%. So you gotta get the experience right if
you wanna win more deals more often and a little bit faster and, you know,
everything spins right when you have a better buying experience and and so
many don't. Andrew, there's another statistic that
75% of buyers prefer to have a sales
(02:40):
free experience. Wow. Yeah.
I'll pause there for a second and let that land hard.
And I mean, the bar is so dang low,
and that's a Gartner statistic, by the way. The bar is so dang
low for, value professionals to stand
apart and drive a better experience. Now listening is a
(03:03):
key element and key driver of being able to do so.
And, Andrew, your book couldn't come at a better time. It's just perfect. When
I when I saw it, I lit up, like, going, fuck yeah. You know, I
I really didn't do it because I I know I got issues. You can see
me rattling on right now. But, you know, we all
need to do a better job of listening, especially as it relates to this better
(03:24):
buying experience. Selling's tough. It's even harder this
today than it was yesterday, and listening is just
such a key factor in this whole thing. So, again, you
wrote you wrote a fantastic book, Listening Without
an Agenda. Got my copy right here. It's become my best
friend. Thank you for popping this over to me, Andrew. Really appreciate
(03:47):
it. But, let us know just, why you wrote
the book. Yeah. You know, I it's interesting you were just
talking about that, but one of the things when I'm working with sales professionals, I
say sometimes the market differentiation that you have is the
fact that you actually show up as a real person as opposed to the
other salespeople who don't. And so, you know, in a lot of ways, sometimes that
(04:09):
market differentiation is you. So anyway Well,
especially in this era of AI, man. Yeah. Even
even more so. Yeah. It's gonna be a critical x factor.
If if done right, but then also it's gonna be a z
factor if done wrong. And, again, 75% of sellers
You know? So, yeah, there there's a a low bar. We can do so much
(04:32):
better. But, yeah, continue. Tell us that. What drove your passion for writing
this thing? Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I was talking with
a bunch of people about what I do and really kind of defining the mission
and vision of the work that I've been doing on stage and with clients
for a while. And someone had just said to me, you know, it sounds
to me like you're helping people listen. And that it took me back. I
(04:54):
wasn't prepared for that. And then I started to look at it through that
lens and went, yeah. I think that's where a lot of pieces are,
which then reminded me of things like, my mother before she had
passed away, was part of hearing.
And so she was having difficulty understanding what people were
saying. And I noticed that if I could just sit and
(05:17):
get something across to her and then she would talk, but just let go of
my need to speak, talk about
myself, share anything, and just be available and listen.
It changed her perception and she felt included.
And so between that and then some of the work I was working with clients
too. I mean, and I I had moments with clients where people said, I just
(05:40):
suddenly realized I don't listen to anyone. And then and as
I used to say that in the book, even, like, people who said, I can't
wait to get home and talk to my kids. You know, that
realization from people of what is it like to
effectively listen, it jazzes me. That
just jazzes me. That's that's amazing. It it really
(06:01):
is. Yeah. One of my, my mom, Andrew,
she was recognized by president Ronald Reagan at the
time of being one of the top administrators in
in the whole country. And she was an administrator,
principal of a grade school. And, when I talk
to people about her, why she was such an amazing
(06:24):
leader, just, in her personal life
and in her professional life, her her her ability to
listen was probably her x factor. She
really focused, zeroed in, and let people know
that they what they had to say was incredibly important to her,
and she was there connecting with them. Just just
(06:46):
amazing as a role model, as a great listener.
Yeah. I think good teachers are great. I mean, both of my
parents were teachers as well. Good teachers are really those people that you
go, oh, wow. They were here for me. They they it
felt like they understood you on a deeper level. Yeah.
That's amazing. Congratulations to your mom. That's great. Thank
(07:08):
you, Andrew. Well, hey. Jumping in, I know,
one of the concepts that you were telling me about is listening without
an agenda. Can you open up our dialogue and just explain a
little bit about that for us? Yeah. I mean, just to
kind of describe to you the way it sort of works on on brain
science a little bit is, on your,
(07:30):
your left side of your brain, your prefrontal cortex is where it's
aware you're bringing in information. So this is where you're hearing that
data, seeing, listening, smelling, tasting, all of
that. And then on the left side is where you're categorizing it against
what you already know. And so the difficulty is is that I think a lot
of us will hear something and then immediately go to the categorization and say, oh,
(07:52):
I know something about this, or here's this, or and we anchor it based
on what our previous experiences are as opposed to
staying in discovery and saying, oh, what
else? And and what am I missing? And is there
something else there? So in a lot of ways, that sort of listening without
agenda is it's how our brain operates. I mean, we
(08:14):
are we're operating with kind of, older technology here
than what we deal within our world. So how do we use the older
technology and understand where its downfalls might be? And I
think that's where kind of listening without an agenda rather than what
do I wanna get across, what am I trying to say, what is my point.
It's, well, what's happening here, and am I really understanding what's
(08:38):
happening? That's the difficulty. How do you turn off that switch
where you, go from left to right and start processing like you
were saying, you know, where you start to not listen. You're
you're more, you know, talking yourself in your head and assimilating.
How how do you break that that pattern? That's a it's a hard
one to break. And and I am I'm a firm believer too of I
(09:00):
can't tell myself to not do something. Like, the
example is if I tell you don't think of a pink elephant, what happens? Right?
Yeah. You're thinking of a pink elephant. Right. So we have to give our
brain a task, which is, okay, as
I'm hearing what you're saying, I am going to be able to put it into
five words and feed it back to you, reflective listening, the work of Carl Rogers.
(09:22):
So when we start thinking in those terms of giving ourselves a
task, something to do, that can help keep us present.
Okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. It's fun. Thanks for breaking that
down. That that's great. And then, let let's
get into it maybe a little bit further here. Just, what other
common mistakes do you see, biggest mistakes as it relates to listening,
(09:45):
and what do we do about that? I well, I
mean, kind of what we just talked about too, those sort of biases or
preconceived notions is one of the first things that comes into play.
The other thing is, I mean, talking about how the brain is wired.
And I I work with a neuroscientist, my friend Andre Golard, and he's
quoted throughout the entire book. We we listen and
(10:07):
we bring in data points, And then we take those data points
and we draw through lines between them. So we are problem
solving machines. The biggest thing that I think is
one of the biggest mistakes that we have is we tend to always
listen for where's the problem and how do I solve it. Especially,
I mean, think about it as sales professionals. That's what we're trained to
(10:30):
do. You know? Good. We we think in terms of I'm hearing your problem,
and then I have a solution, so I'm gonna throw you the solution. As
opposed to, is that really the problem? Have I
asked more questions about the problem? What's the real problem
below? However, our brain immediately dives onto the, oh,
I have a solution. Oh, I have a solution. Oh, I have a solution. Yeah.
(10:51):
So it's, it's kinda getting there too fast as opposed to
staying in discovery. That's one of the biggest mistakes.
Absolutely. That so makes sense to me. Yeah. It is that shallow
listening probably gets to those, oh, correlated
factors or symptoms of a problem. But if you stay
in that listening mode, you can get to level two, level three into a deeper
(11:13):
understanding what's some what's some of the causal factors
of a of a problem state? And and then, you know,
then at that point, perhaps, offering your wisdom and and
and path for success with a solution, but but not too early.
Is that the point? Or Yeah. Not too early because, again, as you said, if
I'm responding to solutions, then the truth is I'm just playing whack a
(11:36):
mole. I'm I'm putting a Band Aid on a
symptom, and I'm not actually getting to what that deep need is.
I mean, for sales professionals, especially everyone here,
if we are not addressing that deep sort of emotional what's in it
for me point, then we're not gonna have that
person sold. So we really need to keep listening,
(11:58):
keep listening, keep listening. What is that root issue? How do we
find that? How do I reflect it back? What does that mean? What does
it feel like? That's where we have to get into that deep in
listening. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Yep. For
sure. I I love it. Hey. I have a quick question I had on my
mind. How do you help your buyer get
(12:20):
into a deep listening mode? That's kinda weird.
But, is there a way to help somebody else listen a little bit better as
well? You know, it it's a it's gonna be
that piece again as I said, because everyone's coming in with a parameter of how
they listen and what they're listening for. I think especially for a
buyer, it's like, I have this need,
(12:43):
so I'm listening for it. And the question that I always have for
sales professional is, what is that need that they didn't even know they
had? That now you're positioning what your services
are for a deeper need that was underneath that need. Yes. I'm
speaking to this need, but let's actually go deeper. What else is going on?
Example was working with people a little while ago, and, what we got
(13:06):
to was that they were so busy, they couldn't get home to actually
see any of their children's soccer games. And so then it was
that whole idea of once we found that out, it was how do we position
this product in order to save you the time so you can get home to
spend time with your family. Yeah. And that's that's where
we start to get to the real issue that's below it, the need, that,
(13:28):
that piece. I don't I don't know how we get buyers to do
that, but I think as sales professionals, it's our job to sort of continue to
keep that discovery and keep it going. Yeah. One of the best examples of that,
I was on a call and, the chief revenue officer, a new
chief revenue officer showed up. And I I was in the selling
capacity, and she was the executive. And,
(13:51):
it was kind of interesting. I was talking to I was texting with one
of my colleagues who was on the call with me, and we both
agreed she was just in staccato mode.
She was just, you know, throwing things, you know, at at
us, you know, thoughts and ideas and staccato,
but but not coherent and and,
(14:13):
and and I learned through that.
She was very stressed out and under
fire. And, one another colleague on there was,
like, going, hey. Need to halt just for a minute.
These two guys that are here are intensely,
deeply experienced in this area. Let's
(14:36):
listen to them for a little bit and see what they have
to say. And so he, you know, as a
peer, said, hey. Let let's halt.
Now let's listen. So and and that technique, we didn't,
she didn't say, hey. Screw you guys. We're dying. She hung in
there, and we did work with her, which was nice.
(15:00):
But we we it it was a pattern interrupt at that point.
So I I think I don't know. In that instance, you know, we were able
to help her listen to us, but, yeah, I don't know what the
what the right approach is. I it worked in that situation.
There's there's a tool that's in the book that I talk about, which is listening
for values. Mhmm. And what I found too is that tends to
(15:23):
be one where in that feeling where you're feeling like
the the buyer is just not, you know, wow. It's just not it's not getting
through. I'm not sure what it is. To start to say, what I'm
hearing is is that this is what you really care about.
You know, what I'm hearing is that fairness is something that's really important to you.
Tell me if I'm hearing that correctly. And I have found that when we start
(15:45):
talking about values, what's below what's going on,
immediately the conversation gets deeper and that person sort of calms in a
little bit. So it's it's, again, one of those little tiny
tricks of and I mean, not trick. It's a tool for how do I get
to the deeper listening. So maybe that's the way to help the buyer is
Yeah. Yeah. And if they aren't really listening to understand and, you know,
(16:07):
they're they're feeling respected, then they'll probably turn around and do that with you as
well. Hey. That was another idea I had.
I was asking you earlier, what what's the right pacing
between speaking and listening? And,
we you know, one one thing we discussed, you know, there was a
Gong.i0 study out of their Gong Research Labs.
(16:29):
They looked at thousands and thousands of sales calls. And
for executives, Andrew, they found that the
pacing should be fifty fifty. So at the at the end of that
conversation and with an executive speaking with you, it
should they should have spoken for 50% of the time and and listened for
50% of the time just like you, the seller. Now a a
(16:52):
junior person, maybe an influencer to the buying decision, maybe not
making the actual decision at the end of the day, the economic decision,
but, you know, a big influencer, maybe they're doing the technology review.
At that instance, you know, maybe this seller speaks a little bit
more demoing the product and doing different things answering, you know,
pointed questions, of that person. Maybe about seventy
(17:14):
thirty is what, the Gong IO lab study,
determined. Any thoughts or reflections on that in terms of just
pacing? Yeah. I think even even
in those situations where you will be doing the demo on pieces,
what I've coached people for as well as to how do
I let the listener know that they are still in charge
(17:37):
in a lot of ways. A big example was, like, here's the
agenda and here's the things. I'd love for you just to tell me what's what's
the most important thing here to you. And then you
know what? Based on that, we're gonna start there. So
I'm I'm signaling that it's really about you and it's what's most
important to you even though I'm the one who's gonna be describing it.
(18:00):
Because, yeah, what I don't wanna do is show up and throw up, you know,
like, which which happens as you said. I I
think the way I love to think of it is it actually happens out of
exuberance. I care so much about what I'm doing, what
I'm selling the product. I believe in it so much that I just
you know? It it needs to be a dialogue, as you
(18:21):
said, fifty fifty. It needs to be about the other person. Yeah. I'll
make you laugh a little bit, hopefully. I was just playing around with a little
movie clip. I I might wanna use it. But, do you remember the song circle
of life? Oh, yeah. Where the monkey, you know, is there
take take takes the baby and then brings it up on high.
Yeah. That's so cool. I think a lot of
(18:43):
sellers show up with that exuberance, but, there's a term that
we use often. You know? Choose your own adventure and,
allowing the buyer, hey. You know, we could look at a, b, or c. What
what are you thinking about? Well, definitely c. That's really important
to me. Okay. Let's push into that. You know? So Right. You know, let that
choose your path. You're making those options available. So it is that
(19:05):
collaborative dialogue and and listening and and talking.
Yeah. What the willingness to let go, at that point
too. I'm willing to let go of what my agenda is in order
to say what's important for you. Wonderful. Let's go that
direction. Nice callback to listen without an agenda. That's
perfect. Just saying. I'm just saying. That's right. I saw what you did. Hey,
(19:29):
well, any other big mistakes that you're seeing out there that could
get in the way of a a better buying experience?
I think there is a lot too where I I kind of get people to
sort of look at more than just what they're hearing.
Reflecting back what they're hearing, trying to go to the deeper part of it.
It's also then just being aware that what you're seeing
(19:51):
is an entire picture. And and that, I think, is is just
kind of important for people to understand that sometimes that message is coming
across physically, emotionally,
in other ways rather than just the verbal words the person's saying. So
your job as a sales professional is to see that whole picture.
Absolutely. Gosh. Dang. Look at you.
(20:16):
Perfect. For people on the YouTube show, I'm showing
a picture of an iceberg, you know, which has part of the iceberg out of
the water, the part that the Titanic hits probably, and then and then
there's part an under the water as well. And,
your your point about listening for the whole picture
reminds me, Andrew, of a story, my sister-in-law.
(20:39):
She, was a medical doctor
specializing in in premature births.
And, she was in the hospital one day
and, a father came up to her
and absolutely red faced,
(21:00):
started into a verbal assault, and just said, you
guys are not doing what you, you know, you're screwing up here.
I noticed this. Just furious and shouting
and and really creating total drama.
It cat capturing all the attention of everyone around the waiting
room and beyond shouting, totally
(21:22):
angry. And, luckily, my
sister-in-law had been into a lot of workshops with a
guru called, Marshall Rosenberg who founded
Nonviolent Communications. So she
watched all that anger and, started
thinking about it a little bit as well and then
(21:45):
realized, okay. His need is is
for, you know, safety for his child, and
that's why he's flipping out. Yeah. And,
then she responded to him saying, sir,
I just have to, you know, promise you we're doing
everything possible to help your baby. And
(22:08):
and it's a very tough situation, but just know
all our attention and focus is on this at this
point in time. I I wish for you not to be as worried. I
know that's hard, but, and, the guy
just melted and just started weeping at that point. The anger was
gone. You know, of course, behind anger is typically fear,
(22:31):
but, you know, that that's where
she literally listened to the the total iceberg. You know,
what was above the surface, all that anger, and then all that fear
and insecurity below the water, to to
really help that person process and move forward.
Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's a great example of,
(22:53):
again, the full listening. What I'm hearing is this
yelling and diatribe, but what's happening down below is that fear,
the, you know, the awful feeling of my child
being sick. Oh, you know? Yeah. That's that's
that's the kind. There's, there's one to show you here too. Oh,
yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite toys.
(23:15):
I kinda keep this here just to if I do hear some
things like that, for everybody listening, I just showed a
a doll that had a really, really scary face. Yeah. But I
I have that as a little prop on my desk, just just in case I'm
talking to someone and things are getting weird. Sometimes I can look
at that and go, you know, some something's probably behind that. Let let's
(23:38):
figure it out. Yeah. There's, there's a
story that I use in the book too that talks about, one of, actually, one
of my backers for the book and one of my friends used to work at
a suicide hotline. And what they always told them was to
match the intensity that someone came in with, because if
people were like, I'm upset, and you went, well, let's calm down. It actually got
(23:59):
people more upset. So it was letting them know that you emotionally
understood where they are. Like, wow. Alright. There's something going on
here. Let's talk about it because now when we talk about it, we can actually
move you down. And and I've used that before. I mean, it sounds like
a lot like what your sister-in-law was dealing with too. Like, it's the
there's something here, and I have to match the intensity of that to
(24:21):
go. There is wow. We're gonna help you, and we're gonna
and and sometimes if people don't feel that emotional connection
as well as the verbal piece, they don't think the message is there.
Absolutely. And you've probably seen the, oh, this wisdom
maxim that people buy on emotion
(24:42):
Yes. And then they justify with logic. And even with my
firm, ValuePro, so focused on business value, where's the real
value? How do we quantify that? That still gets into
the rational side of things, and and and we know the
emotion drives that. But then also that's the evidence they need to go and
sell, but very often the emotion drives that. So,
(25:05):
you know, back to that sister-in-law story, she was
listening for the emotion. So and specifically, what were the
feelings in that emotion? Well, anger, you know, and and, you know,
being scared and, you know, really tapping into some of those
feelings. But then underneath those feelings, what are the
needs that aren't being met? And then and
(25:26):
then, you know, if we cannot identify that, then we can diffuse and
and move forward. Same thing when you're dealing and selling and buying
conversations. You can listen for that.
And and a lot of, like you said, yes. I've got my data, and I've
got everything in place, and I can show you exactly what this is gonna do.
And that's wonderful. Rationally, I want it. Now all
(25:48):
of a sudden, I've realized that if I get it, I get more time back,
and I get to go see my kid's soccer game. Now
we've got a real I don't know. Wow. You know? Now we've got a full
package. I am emotionally attached to it. I'm, you know,
I'm intellectually attached to it. It's a full package.
Yeah. Absolutely. Well Oh, gosh. Gosh. I'm glad we talked
(26:09):
about that. That's really important. What other practicals
maybe even just give us some highlights from the book on on some things to
focus on. Yeah. I I think the biggest thing is
and the idea for the book too is just to bring awareness to what we
are doing when we're naturally listening. Every one of us has learned to
(26:31):
listen from our experiences growing up, people who were around
us, people who helped to raise us. And so our listening is
affected by that. It really is about, let's be aware of
how I'm listening. The biggest next step that I recommend for
people is, be aware of where you're solutioning. I
think, a lot of the people that I deal with, a lot of, executives,
(26:53):
especially, will come home at night and, you know, their spouse says something
to them. They say, oh, okay. You know how to fix this. Let me tell
you. And they're immediately responding to everything with solutions, you
know. Their kid mentioned something about school and they're like, okay. Well, here's what you
gotta do. Maybe it's not about solutioning in this moment. Maybe it's
more about, wow, that sounds like that was difficult. Tell me more.
(27:14):
So being aware of sometimes solutioning isn't the
only option. Maybe sometimes making an emotional connection or
just even listening and going, wow, I understand being a sounding board for
someone. There are lots of different ways. The first step is sort
of let's become aware of how we listen, and then let's try
to incorporate what might be different styles or methodologies.
(27:36):
Yeah. No. I love it. Have you seen the, YouTube video, fork
in the head? Oh, yes. Yeah.
That's really funny. Yeah. I have such a headache. Well, maybe it's because of the
stop telling me. Yeah. I did. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Stop telling me what to do. You know, you're not listening. But there's
a but there's a a fork that's right. No. It's not like a belt. Yeah.
(27:59):
No. I I like it, but but it is true. You know, people, you know,
are probably gonna be more willing to listen to you when they understand that you
care. Remember that old maxim, oh, people don't care how much
you know until they know how much you care? Yep. Yeah. That that
gets into listening. Yeah. Where you really need to
you need to demonstrate that you care. Yeah. Absolutely. And
(28:21):
listening is just so powerful in doing that. Also liked in your
book, sometimes we get into little, you know,
trickery and techniques around listening. Oh, Andrew, you just said that. Just a
second, I'm gonna, you know, lean my head down and write that note down so
you see that I'm listening. And, I I I like
your point of view, and maybe you could illustrate that for us, but that might
(28:43):
not be the best approach. Not really. I I
mean, again, I I feel like there's a lot of there's a lot of performative
sort of skills that people have given it. I see a lot in public
speaking. When I'm teaching people for public speaking, they're like, make sure you
walk. Don't move your hands much. Don't do this. Again, it's the
don't do this. Don't think of a pink elephant. Mhmm. As opposed to
(29:05):
give yourself something that's gonna be clear. If it helps you to write
something down, then write it down. And also then
as I say, be clear with people and name it and claim it and say,
I'm sorry. I just wanna make a couple notes here. Just so you know when
I'm disconnecting. I just because I wanna remember it. Be
clear with people. That clarity, I think, is what
(29:27):
makes that emotional connection. Yeah. And that genuineness, that authenticity.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just in doing a different perspective. Every person. I I
mean, I think we all listen with our own
biases, our own ideas, and our own way of listening. So for each
individual, we have to figure out what works best for us. The tools and exercises
in the in the book are really more of the how do you gain your
(29:49):
own authentic awareness of what works for you so that then
you can be present for others. Sweet. Sweet.
On that note, I just say, you know, any you know, in conclusion
for this episode anyways, Andrew, there's so much to learn from you. But
anything else you wanna leave us with before we round out?
You know, I I would feel remiss as the improv guy since we did this
(30:12):
before, to not sort of mention how some of those skills come in, which is
just the the whole idea in improv of accepting and building. I I
hear something, I say yes to it, and then I build on it.
And to me, that also falls directly into listening skills. Even
when your client that you're talking to, the buyer says, well, this is
my reality. Even if you know it's not true, you go, oh, wow. Well,
(30:34):
tell me more about that. I need to accept wherever their reality
is and then build on it in order to basically get to the spot
where I need to get to. So when you deny someone's reality,
you've lost the sale immediately. So I think that yes
and idea still falls into place, especially with effective listening and
with any kind of, of any any sort of buyer journey.
(30:57):
And what a beautiful callback to the episode we did on that, which was perfect.
You know? Check that one out. Alright. Yeah. Please. Yeah. It's it's in the archive
of the Value Pro Show for everybody listening and watching. You know, check it out.
And, Andrew, you know, former founder, of Jet
City Improv here in Seattle area, very successful and has
done a wonderful job at teaching sellers how to yes and
(31:19):
in a very profound way. Thank you. Yeah. And I still have your rubber band
for snapping myself. Yeah. There it is. Right there. Yes,
and. Very cool. Well, just wanna
highlight for folks, Andrew's book's out on Amazon
where you can get it listening without agenda. And, you know,
so please, grab a copy. It's a great book. And,
(31:42):
Andrew, I'd recommend everybody connect with you on LinkedIn. You know, just
check out the beautiful photo on the, profile. Great
banner, by the way. I really like how you set all that up. But, Thank
you. Yeah. For everyone, connect with Andrew on LinkedIn.
And on that note, Andrew, I just really wanna thank you for joining the
show. Thank you. I also wanna hold up the thank you for your
(32:04):
book. Yay. With the best
seller sticker, yes. Heck, yeah. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
You're next, man. We gotta do this. Alright. Alright. Well, thank
you, Andrew. Thanks for the time. Thank you. What a conversation
with Andrew McMasters. We covered some powerful insights on the role
of listening and sales and leadership, how to move beyond
(32:27):
solutioning, stay in discovery mode, and really
understand a buyer's needs. One of my biggest takeaways,
people don't just buy products, they buy experiences.
And listening, when it's done right, creates a
buying experience that sets you apart. So if you enjoyed this
episode, please like and subscribe to the ValuePro Show. And if you're
(32:49):
feeling kind, leave a review so others can find and enjoy
it too. Thanks, and wishing you success and good listening.
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