December 2, 2024 • 40 mins
Join us on the ValuePros Show as Bruce Scheer and Chuck Marcouiller dissect the art of making a strong first impact in sales. Learn the essentials to navigate the value fog and drive measurable outcomes.
- Discover the "Three C’s" of value selling: context, clarity, and confidence.
- Understand how to define and achieve the elusive "first impact."
- Learn why consumers prioritize pain avoidance over potential gains.
- Explore the "I MADE" framework for evaluating solution impacts.
- Hear a personal story illustrating the importance of assessing value from the consumer's perspective.
00:00 Chuck Marcouiller discusses crucial first-impact selling.
05:07 Define customer impact to reduce software churn.
09:21 No decision prevails; clarity and confidence lacking.
12:20 Clear value fog for better deal success.
13:28 Value is defined by the receiver's perception.
19:32 Decisions blend logic, emotion; emotional impact crucial.
22:41 Three stages: solution impact, status quo impact.
24:58 Evaluating inaction costs, proving initial ROI impact.
27:54 Software implementation requires active collaboration between parties.
32:51 Aim: 90% pass certification, assess coaching effectiveness.
36:00 "Order doesn't matter; essential ingredients ensure success."
37:32 Documented processes create confidence, clarity, success.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the value pro show where value pros get value
ready. Welcome back to another episode of the value pro
show. Today, we're diving into a crucial aspect of the sales
process that many overlook, selling for the elusive
first impact. And who better to help us unravel this than
the amazing Chuck Mercoulier? Chuck is a seasoned
(00:23):
expert in revenue enablement with over 30 years of experience
helping sales teams reach their highest potential. He's the founder
of SaaS enable and currently the VP of revenue enablement
at Freightwaves. Chuck is here to share his insights on how to
define and achieve that critical first impact that can
make all the difference between a deal moving forward or stalling
(00:45):
out. Buckle up as we explore what it means to be impact
ready and how to align with your buyer right from the
start. So welcome to the ValuePro Show, Chuck.
Everyone, we've got Chuck Marcoullier, and he's joining us to
talk about selling for the Illusive First Impact.
So, Chuck, thanks so much for being part of this. Thanks,
(01:07):
Bruce. I'm excited to be here. Awesome. Awesome. Well, hey. Let's
let's jump right in. Chuck, what is selling for the first
impact? How would you describe this? What definition will you put behind it?
I'm I'm glad you asked this. It's the most common
mistake that I see sellers and see us folks make
is we rush so much when we're first selling and getting
(01:30):
excited to bring a new prospect on that we,
spend a lot of time gathering their situation. We spend a lot of time
mining for pain, and then automatically we prescribe
something, but we don't understand the impact that they want
to have or we understand the ROI, but we don't
know the first stage of success that we both mutually define
(01:53):
in order to know that we're progressing to the agreed upon result. So
first impact is what is the first measurable
co agreed upon point that we can both come to
to say, yep. We're getting to the point that we both agreed we're going
to work towards in order to hit that end result.
Awesome, Chuck. Yeah. And I know, you and I were talking about our value
(02:16):
ready framework, and I'm I'm sure people checking out this show have probably seen it.
If you haven't, our listeners and watchers, it's off our
website at valuepros.i0, off of our resources store. You'll
even see a value ready assessment. But Chuck's talking about and what we
were talking about is how do you get impact ready? And and
Chuck brings this insight around, you know, how to sell for 1st
(02:38):
impact where you and your buyer have a really
good definition and alignment around what is impact.
So I I'm I'm really excited that we're gonna kinda break this down. It's so
important and often missing, Chuck, as both of you and I were talking about.
But, let let's move into the kind of the next type of dialogue, and and
why is selling for First Impact so important? What could you
(03:01):
share share there, Chuck? Well, I you know, I've been I've been
a seller, I've been a sales leader, and I've been doing sales enablement
for 30 years. So I've I've coached a lot of sellers
and, you know, made a lot of mistakes as a seller too. And the
thing is is that we often prescribe without fully diagnosed.
(03:22):
It. And the big thing is is that impact is
is really defining the value, and value is defined by the
receiver, not the giver. I wish somebody would have told me that earlier on in
my career. I didn't I didn't come into that until after I was, you know,
getting out as finishing up my career as a sales leader that somebody said, hey.
Did you know that value has to be really defined by the receiver,
(03:44):
not the giver? And it's you know, if
and and how do you know that you're getting to that value unless
the buyer tells you what their what's what's worth investing
in, what's worth actually putting their hard earned dollars and going through
the pain of making a change unless they stop and
actually tell you. Ab absolutely.
(04:07):
Totally agree. So, so far, we've talked about, you
know, just, you know, one of the mistakes you
often see, Chuck, and and this comes from you, but just
prescription without full diagnosis. And and we've always preached, you
know, in in in my world, you know, diagnose before you prescribe.
Even you yourself said it's malpractice when you don't. But you said
(04:29):
that that often happens, And then,
let's see here. You were also just talking about this
whole notion. Do you wanna just describe this for us in terms of the the
result that that we're trying to sell? Yeah. Because
so many of us are selling software. And in software,
we're selling the invisible. Right? It it it isn't like a
(04:53):
iPhone or TV or AirPods where you've got this tangible
thing that someone could touch. Right? And say, okay. I've I've got this thing. I
I know what it is. So when you buy software, Bruce, what are you
buying? You're buying the end result. Right? I'm
I'm buying a vehicle. I'm buying this tool in order to achieve an end
result. So it really becomes at that point, we've got
(05:15):
to it's it's so critical in order to keep this reoccurring
revenue because that's what we're selling software for is that reoccurring revenue,
is that we have to define what the impact the agreed
upon impact's going to be and what the first impact's
gonna be so that we know that we're headed down the road. I mean, how
many times have you been working with a customer where they say, hey,
(05:36):
Bruce. We've we think we have the market leading
software out there. We we we've been selling this stuff, but one of the
biggest problems we have is we have we have about a
30% churn, and somehow we've gotta stop the
hemorrhaging. We don't understand why. It's it's just our CSP
people. They just aren't aren't selling the value to our
(05:58):
customers and our and our sellers, they're not selling the right value.
Well, I probably go back and say, it's not
that they're not selling the value. It's just that they're not
reminding people that, hey, here's where you
were, and here's what happened along the journey, and here's how we took
you from your initial state to where you are
(06:20):
now. It's just like getting into Harvard. Remember all of those kids,
how excited they were? They get into an Ivy League school, and then
all of a sudden they get into Ivy League school. They have no worries. Right?
They got into an Ivy League school. Their their lives are set.
But there's as much depression at an Ivy League
school as there is at any other school. They should be the happiest people.
(06:42):
They're the the some of the best schools in the world. But, no, now they're
worried about everything else because the
goal post has moved. Now that you started working in this area
or have this new tool, you now have a new goalpost, and
you have to start figuring out what is the result and what's the measurement
that we're going to do in order to make sure that we're moving towards
(07:05):
the end result that we both agree upon, that that
promised land of happiness, that promised land of achievement,
which was the reason that we bought the the software in the first place and
the reason that we'll renew. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Make make sense. And, again, we're talking about why do
we wanna sell for 1st impact for creating that clarity
(07:27):
around the result. And speaking about clarity, Chuck, you'd
given me some of this wisdom on what what do buyers really want? Do you
wanna talk about this a little bit, the 3 c's that that you've
coined? It really came out in our conversation earlier where we you
know, because you you folks are the, you know, the value
pros. And how do you find value how do you define value today?
(07:49):
I mean, what do what do, buyers
need sellers for? I mean, one of the things that I heard on one of
your earlier podcasts is most people want to
buy online today. You know, do do people even need
human sellers anymore? And like you said, I would describe,
absolutely. But the need for human sellers has changed.
(08:12):
Ages ago, when I first got into selling, when you first got into selling, we
were the keepers of information. We had the information on the product. We had the
information on the marketplace, and sellers and buyers came to
us in order to get that valuable information. But
now with AI and the Internet, they have access to as much
information as we do on what's going on in the marketplace and what every
(08:33):
competitor has and what we have. Right? So so what's the
real value of the seller these days? Well, they come to us
for 3 key things. It's context.
So how is this thing really used? Can it be used in my world? Can
you adapt or or explain it in the lens that I need to understand it
in? It's Clari. How are you different than anybody else? And one of my
(08:56):
favorite questions is, Bruce, what's the difference between AT and T, Verizon, and T
Mobile, and you can't say Cover Jerry? Can you tell me?
Nope. I ain't over either. But they're spending 1,000,000,000 of
dollars each on marketing to try to convince you that you should move from one
to the other. Mhmm. But we know and when we don't
know and it's not clear what the difference is between 1 or
(09:19):
the other, we don't make changes. We decide not to decide. How
many of our deals these days, especially now, are lost to no
decision? No decision is our greatest competitor, and it's because we're not clear
on what makes us different. And then the last thing is
confidence. Am I confident that if I bet my job because that's what
your sponsor is doing, especially in companies these days, if I
(09:41):
go with your solution, if I tell everybody else in my organization that we have
to go with this this software and make this investment,
is it really gonna work out? So, yeah, I could buy it online,
but I don't know if it's really gonna work in our
organization the way I need it to work in our specific connections, our
specific way. Who else has done this? Is it really different than all the other
(10:04):
solutions that I see out there? I could do the chat gbt search, and they
tell me that there is a little bit of a difference, but I really don't
understand it. And I need to look somebody. I need a human being to tell
me it's gonna be okay. And if those
conditions aren't there, we don't have a tendency to buy.
But we buy because, again, coming back to impact, we buy because of that
(10:24):
perceived value, that perceived impact. Value equals impact.
What is how am I gonna be better off because I went through this process
and made this investment? What is the result? What is the pain that's gonna go
away? Because we we buy primarily on the avoidance
of pain more than the anticipation of gain.
And or would how is my work gonna be different? And is
(10:47):
it worth the pain of change? Is the pain or the
gain of a better tomorrow worth more
than the cost of having to make a change? That's right. It
is. Yeah. But how do I know it's going well?
When I'm in the trenches and I'm making this change, when
(11:07):
and there's that that famous sort of curve that,
hey, things get worse before they get better. We break
stuff. We go through the unlearning curve. I used to be an expert on the
old system. I thought I knew the new system, but
it's a little harder than I had thought before I become an expert at
this this new system that you have me in to
(11:29):
be able to get that understanding. But we have to persevere through that. If
we don't, we never get to the full result that we anticipated
getting. But if we do, we've got to get our customers.
Then we have it, you know, to to really make that investment. Then we stand
a chance of getting that result that we both went into this
opportunity for. Absolutely. Yeah. We've covered a lot
(11:51):
of ground here, but, and, also, I want to introduce, Chuck, a a
concept. I don't think I'd mentioned this to you. I'd like I'd love your reaction.
But I also think about, the value fog, especially as
it relates to indecision that you were talking about and and how high that
is. One of the latest stats I've been throwing around is indecision's at
60%. You know? In in a SaaS world that you're talking
(12:13):
about, you know, on average, it might be 1.5 out of or
2 out of 10 deals might close, 20% close rate. End
decision, 60%. The competition gets 25%.
You're stuck with 1.5 out of 10 deals that that you're closing,
which is horrible. And I think one of the biggest reasons for that is what
I call the value fog that, the customer and,
(12:36):
the buyer and the seller didn't do a a really good job
of understanding the result that you were talking about. About. What what are we shooting
for? What's possible? Or and, also, what goes away in
terms of the the impact that goes away creating the opportunity?
So, you know, ultimately, what we wanna do is clear that value fog and
get super yeah. I I love what you say. Context,
(12:59):
clarity around the result that we're looking for, and then confidence that we can achieve
it to move forward. You know, great great framework,
Chuck, on the 3 c's. I I I think that characterizes it really well.
So why don't we, move into a little bit of
how to land now? You know, what, and and I think you've got
some ideas what not to do and also what to do.
(13:23):
So take it from here, Chuck, and I'll just support where we where we go
from here. I I think one of the things that we have to think about
is, you know, prescription without diagnosis. You know,
it's one of the things that we have to do is go back to the
concept of value is defined by
the receiver, not the giver. And it goes back
to and forgive me for I want to share sort of a personal
(13:46):
story, because it illustrated it so
clearly for me. My mother passed away before
Christmas, you know, several years ago.
And my father was was old school, and he was like, I am
not going to pay $2,000. And my mother wanted to
be cremated. He goes, I am not gonna pay $2,000 for
(14:09):
an urn for your mother. He goes, she deserves better than that, and that's
just paying for for a a porcelain jar $2,000
would be she'd be horrified that that's stupid. So he looked at
me and my brother and he said, boys, go out, find
something really good for your mother that's worth it. Make sure it's valuable.
(14:29):
And we're like, what are we gonna do? What what the heck does he mean?
Now to give you a little context, my father graduated from Syracuse
with a degree in forestry. He was a forester and a surveyor
for most of his life before becoming a sales guy for Champion Lumber. So he
love he was a wood guy. He called himself a wood deck. He loved
woods. We knew we gotta go find a beautiful
(14:52):
wooden box for mom that's just stunning. Yeah. Where are we
gonna find it? I don't know. So we're wandering around Milwaukee looking
in all these furniture stores, jewelry stores for this
beautiful box. We got tired, got hungry, so we went to the
mall. What do you guys do? I go to the mall. So as we're wandering
around the mall near Christmas, we see these vendors who, of course,
(15:13):
pop up vendors. There's this guy who's selling humidors. And all of a sudden, I
tap my brother on the shoulder and I say, Jay, look. Look at this.
There's this gorgeous cherry wood humidor.
Just absolute perfect. My father adores cherry wood. It's
lacquered. It's a beautiful color, beautiful texture. We go over and we say,
okay. So tell us about it. Guy tells us about it, tells us all the
(15:36):
features and functionality of it, and he goes into this. This is a beautiful
handmade box. It's top of the line, it has state of the
art humidity control, it is velvet
lined, it is absolutely the best on the market for
maintaining the perfect temperature control and maintaining your cigars. And we go, okay,
great. If I go get that, go grab my My, 70
(15:58):
plus year old father, bring him out to the mall and we see dad, we
found the perfect thing. Here it is. He takes a look at it. He asked
the guy, this is great. How much? Guy says, $150.
He goes, why? He goes, well, it's state of the art. It's
fantastic craftsmanship. But the real value
is humidity control. He goes, that's great. How much
(16:19):
without the humidity control? He goes, sir, I cannot sell you this without the humidity
control. It is really the reason why this is such a state that he
goes, yeah. Yeah. Great. How much without the humidity control? He goes, it would just
absolutely ruin your cigars without humidity control. He goes,
sir, how much without the humidity control? He goes,
sir, I can't sell it to you without the humidity control. He goes,
(16:42):
sir, ask me what I'm gonna do with this damn box.
He goes, all right, what are you gonna do with the damn box? He said,
my wife died. I cremated her. I'm putting her in this. She doesn't care what
the humidity is. How much without the humidity control? He
goes, 75. He goes, alright.
Sold. And we just sat there and chuckled
(17:03):
and laughed. And I know that's a little bit of a morbid story, but it
it just sat there and illustrated more than anything else.
The seller was not listening to my dad. He did not he
cared about the box. The value was in the box. The value wasn't in the
humidity control. And think about it. How many times do we as sellers get
caught up in our technology, our our doodad that's in the center,
(17:24):
our feature that we think everybody's gonna buy because of this
piece, because that's how we define it.
It's not about the humidity control.
Sometimes it's about what how the customer wants to use it.
And so when we look at impact, we've really gotta take
and I see so many sellers who forget in the process
(17:49):
that impact, you know, they mind for pain, but they
forget the step of asking and listening for
impact. So let's let's pull that apart. Gotcha. I wanted to make
one quick point on that. You know, for people
watching this episode with Chuck, and myself, it I'm
showing a an iceberg. And, of course, we know
(18:11):
an iceberg, you there's things above the above the surface and down
below. And I I I think your story, Chuck, is really
beautiful because that seller wasn't really probing for needs at
all. He he made assumptions around needs, and and hence
that's why he was saying, hey. We're not willing to budge on the
product, but not not not digging a little deeper. Level 2,
(18:33):
level 3 type of deeper to really understand the pain and
and as you say, the potential impact. So, anyways, just
wanted to share this as well. Should we talk then about the,
the types of impact, Chuck? Or No. Let's let's talk or let's
let's unpack impact. Yeah. Yeah.
You know, impact's one of my favorite topics to sit there and get into with
(18:56):
sellers because it's one of those things where we
we surface level talk about it, but we don't really understand it.
Now I like to say that there's 2 types of impact,
and there are 3 stages of impact that we have
to remember in the sales process. So the types of
impact are emotional and rational impact. There's the logical.
(19:19):
So, Bruce, in your experience, buyers make
decisions primarily on emotion or logic.
Yeah. Or emotion for sure. There's data around that
as well. Absolutely. We're we're emotional
creatures who talk logic or make decisions with a thin
veneer of logic. We speak this logical language, but
(19:41):
we decide on emotion. So when we're when we're
diagnosing, when we're sitting there and talking to our prospects, one of the things we
have to listen for and and rationalize, what are the what is the
ROI? What is the monetary return? What's the benefit to the company? But
emotionally, we have to sit there and think, are we listening for why does this
person care? What's the benefit to them for sponsoring or doing this
(20:02):
process? And if there isn't, then we're missing, you know,
half of the solution. So any level of impact or
stage of impact, we're always listening to the emotional impact and the rational
impact and put a big asterisk underline and
whoopee light on the emotional. If the emotional impact is that there, I'm on a
coaching reps. If they can't tell me what the emotional impact is for the person
(20:23):
that they say is gonna sponsor it, I don't believe the deal is gonna come
in because why is the person gonna do it?
Because it's yeah. Why do I care for the benefit that the the
company is gonna save x amount of dollars? Unless I'm the owner, the major stockholder,
and rarely are we talking to them. Why does a mid level person care?
It's nice, but it's not the driving factor. Yeah.
(20:46):
Absolutely, Chuck. One of our affiliates, he's got a
model, that that we lead with very often. We call it the value triad,
but there's there's 3 components of that emotion, and
that's typically the biggest factor as you talk about, you know, people, you
know, decide an emotion and they justify with with rationale.
But part of the rationale would be, the financial dimension of revenue
(21:09):
enhancing benefits, cost reducing benefits associated with
the change, and how do you frame all that up? But,
again, just just to give you a a framing, the value triad is
what we we teach quite often. Yeah. Just to to the word
for just a second. I was I was Gong's 5th customer. And do you know
how Gong was able to close me? Gong was able to close
(21:31):
as I wanted to be my daughter's lacrosse coach. And
he said, what would it be like you know, what's what is one thing you
really wanna do, Chuck? And I said, you know what? Part of
my role as the director of sales enablement at this organization
is I have to review, and and coach a lot of
calls. I gotta be on a lot of calls. And the and this is when
(21:52):
call recording, call intelligence was just in its infancy.
So what if they were all recorded? You could listen to them at 1 and
a half speed, and you could do it whenever you wanted to.
I said, then I could be a coach. He said, what would it mean to
you to be a coach? I said, I could finally be a hero to my
daughter for at least 1 year. I've been a workaholic.
(22:14):
That is so funny. I'll do it. I'll
do it. I'll sponsor this. That is awesome. I think I've heard this
story. I don't know if I told you. I I worked with Gong a a
year and a half ago and built one in one of their sales narratives. I
might have heard this story. That is awesome. Full circle. Full circle
moment. Peter heard it loud. But,
(22:36):
definitely well, should we talk about the
stages? Yeah. Let's talk about the stages. So when we talk
about the stages, there are really 3 different distinct
stages of impact that we've gotta ask for
and understand and diagnose. And a lot of
times, people talk about the solution impact, What's the impact?
(22:58):
What's the ROI of making the change? We love to do that because we've got
our studies and our stats. But sandwiched in between are the
2 that we often forget. And what's the impact of the status quo? So early
on in the discovery is we sit there and say, hey, Bruce. What's the problem
at your organization? We should also be asking for, oh, that's really
interesting. What does that mean? What is that
(23:19):
costing? What's that causing? When you don't if you
don't address that, what's what's happening? What's the drag
on your overall process? That's the impact of the
status quo. If there is no real impact of the
status quo, they're not gonna change no matter what.
And, again, hearsay is not admissible in the court of sales. If they
(23:41):
haven't said it, we don't know it. So we have to have them say
that there is a real cost, not tangible
cost, could be an emotional cost, but there is a real cost
to the way businesses done now. Otherwise, they're not gonna vote to
change. And then, of course, the solution impact, this the the status
quo impact, the solution impact. Oftentimes,
(24:03):
sellers end there. But the really good sellers, the really good sellers,
and really good CS people understand that there's one more one more
stage, and I like to call it the hidden stage, and that's the first impact.
So we said, okay. We're going for 3
x. We're gonna we're gonna improve your conversion rates. We're gonna reduce,
you know, we're gonna improve your overall revenue, reduce your cost because
(24:26):
people only buy software for two reasons, reduce their cost and improve
their revenue. Right? But we have to say, alright. How do we know
we're on the right road? We have
to sit take the steps of defining first impact. How are we both
going to make the investment and know that we're
both taking the steps in order to achieve that first
(24:48):
milestone to know that both parties have made both
good faith efforts to go down the road so that there can be
success. And that's the first impact. So, Chuck, this has
been great. You know, just to put this into some vernacular that I I see
a lot of people talking about. With status quo, you're really trying to look at,
you know, what's the cost of inaction there? You know, what's the cost of that
(25:10):
pain, that problem situation? What's the cause or or the
cost and also the causes. I loved how you frame that. The solution
impact, that might be, you know, hey. What's a potential ROI that we could
achieve together over, say, 1, 2, or 3 year period?
But then, what's what's really neat and I I think a blind spot
for so many is what you coin as first impact.
(25:33):
How do we prove that the cost is going away and we
are on our path to achieving that ROI as part of that
first impact? And and and that's a a a point in time,
not way down the road, but and I know you'll push into this a little
bit more. Absolutely. I wish I was the
person who coined first impact, but I'm I you know, they say,
(25:55):
I wanna be the smartest guy in the room without a single original thought. This
is this is Chaco winning by design, kinda.
I shamelessly stole from him. But I love the concept and
always looking to improve improve on it. But first impact for me, I
but the acronym I came up with is I made.
(26:15):
And when I say first, the framework I made is I I
I'm the one you know, I'm I'm an engineer by background, though I've
never engineered anything. I went to school to become an engineer. And
so I'm always looking for models. And for me, I had to think of something
that would allow me to anchor to. And I made is the acronym.
So impact, there are 4 keys to
(26:38):
getting to that first impact. It's
metrics. It's,
first of all, you have to have agree upon what what are we gonna measure?
How are we gonna know that we're making progress? What's a
tangible, realistic piece that we can
both see and count that both sides are invested,
(27:01):
and we're seeing movement towards that final end result
that's worth achieving. Mhmm. Then the second piece
is, of course, accountability.
Who's going to do what, and what can we hold each accountable
for? Then the this third thing
is date driven. Alright? If we don't have a time bound, just like
(27:24):
any goal, we've gotta sit there on both sides agreed to, you're
gonna do this by this date. I'm gonna do this by this date. So we
know that we're making progress together. And part of that date
driven piece is what are we gonna get back together to really
look to ensure that we've achieved that first measurement
that's worth achieving. And then the 3rd piece is
(27:46):
explicit effort. What's the effort that we both agree we're going to
put in? What's the skin in the game? So many times we as vendors say,
what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna
do this, and I put it on your side, and then I go away, never
asking if you're actually gonna do anything on your side prospect.
That's a mistake. Any software implementation has to
be a partnership. It has to be, hey. I'm going to give you this. I'm
(28:09):
gonna do the the training, but who on your side is going to
fill in the data, put in your
standards, define your value, whatever it may be in
order to make sure that the software actually works. If both
sides aren't actually go putting it in there,
if the actual users or the department that it's it's designed
(28:32):
for, don't actually get in there and start to use it because there is,
of course, that learning curve, that breakage curve, that if there
isn't a commitment by senior leaders on both sides to go through that and get
to some end stage and they come back and meet, did both
sides meet the expectations, then we're not gonna have
a renewal. It's gonna be vaporware, shelfware. And, of course, the end user's
(28:54):
gonna say, oh, I hate it. It sucked. It didn't do what it did. Did
we even try it? Well no. But I just knew by looking at it.
Smelled bad.
Yep. I I love the framework. I just wanna, recap for
everybody on this, Chuck, just for especially for our listeners. You know,
Chuck is illustrating this framework impact,
(29:15):
or I made, which is really interesting. So you start
with impact, and and Chuck has talked about the different types of impact that we're
looking for, those 3 types. But then we need to, end
stages. Excuse me. 22 types, emotional and rational, and then we
have the stages. Now, you know, that that's impact. But
then how do we move towards first impact, where you talk
(29:38):
about metrics, getting really clear on what we're gonna measure for,
accountability, how we're gonna keep ourselves accountable to to tracking
that? Let's have a date on the calendar being date driven
where we know that, you know, you and I have to look each other in
the eyes and see how we did, and putting effort into this whole,
puzzle, especially to get over that that,
(29:59):
you know, trough of disillusionment and and getting that value,
making sure there's effort. So we are achieving that impact. I
I I love it, Chuck. It's a it's a great model. Thank
you. Thank you. It's it's helped. So let's let's put this into play.
What what would that sound like? And it's one thing to sit there and say
to a model, but let's talk about how we put it in play. And,
(30:20):
Bruce, do you mind if I I play it with you? Yeah, please.
Yeah. I'll I'll be a a consultant from Value
Pros, and you'll be a a buyer for of
Value Pros. And what I'm doing is I'm selling you a, a
coaching model. We're gonna come in. We're gonna coach for the explicit,
purpose. We're gonna improve your overall discovery process.
(30:44):
By going through the Value Pros model, we're gonna improve your discovery process. And the
end outcome, Bruce, is that if you use the
Value Pros, learning program and coaching
program, we will guarantee that you'll improve your
conversion rate from your SQLs to your SALs. Is
that worth achieving? Yeah. What are we talking
(31:05):
about? Well, some of our some of
our customers have if if we even achieve a 5%
improvement in conversion rate, what would that be dollar wise given your ARR?
Yeah. Yeah. Me as CRO. Oh my god. That it hits my top
line hugely, and it's all straight to the bottom line as well
because my cost structure doesn't really change. So, yeah, that that
(31:27):
that's really juicy. So let's take Bruce,
so let's identify 2 teams. 2 of your leaders
because we out we we can't do everybody, but let's get 2 leaders to
get success in this. I like to call them the domino reps or the domino
teams. If we can get them to tip, everybody else will tip. Let's get
2 teams that we're gonna run the program on, and then
(31:49):
let's sit there and figure out for 1 quarter. Let's get
them trained and certified, tested. Let's get them trained, make sure that they
understood and certified. But let's also coach your leaders to make sure
that they know how to coach and measure on
what we train them on for the improved discovery process. Mhmm. And
then what I need your you to commit to and
(32:11):
have your reps, your your leaders commit to is that they are
going to coach at least one recorded call
of your reps each week. Is that something that you could
hold your leaders accountable to? Yeah. Mhmm. I
know the teams. I yes. Mhmm. So we'll train
at your SKO on the 2nd week of January by the end of the 2nd
(32:34):
week of January. By the end of January, do you believe well,
how how long do you think it will take that, they could take the
test and say that they understand the basic material that
we we did for discovery a week? Yeah. Yeah.
That should be fine. Okay. So we want at least
90% of your people to pass the certification and the test
(32:57):
by the 3rd week of January, and we're gonna have your leaders coached
on how to coach and how to inspect and how to to measure
a call. Right? And then what we're going
to look for is about at the end of February, we're gonna
see if your leaders are actually coaching the calls. I'm gonna have a call with
you to make sure that and we're gonna see in your system if they're coaching
(33:18):
the calls, and we'll do a touch base with your leaders as well. But then
what I want to do is I want to have a live Zoom with you
and your leaders and your rev ops leader as well in order
to look at the conversion metrics. Metrics. What I need you to do, will you
share with me your current conversion metrics on both your
reps and your leaders in those two teams as of the
(33:40):
end of, fiscal year 24 to see that we can
make at least an incremental change within the Q1. Because if we're doing
this right, it's gonna be a little disruption before they they get this right. But
I bet if we could see at least a 2% increase across the
teams in aggregate, will that give you an indication that we're heading in the right
direction to achieve that overall 5% increase by the end of the year? Oh,
(34:02):
absolutely. Yeah. Makes sense. Okay. Great.
I feel like that will give us an indication whether we're, you know,
the investment is heading in the right direction or whether there are things that we
can incrementally do in order course correct to get your folks to the desired
outcome that, you're making this investment for. But we
both have to be. Yep. Yeah. And then we'll know if
(34:25):
we need to scale it at that point. That's that's perfect.
Right. So did you hear a tangible metric?
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. 2% to 5%.
Right? Did you hear a
an accountability plan? Who's gonna do what?
(34:45):
Mhmm. Did you hear a date? What was the dates? Were we talking
specific dates? Yeah. Yeah. January,
3rd week of January, mid February,
March, we're gonna do the QBR. And then effort, who's
gonna do what? Who's who's responsible for doing what?
(35:05):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. No. We covered the whole model. One thing we probably coulda
added is, hey. If the leaders aren't playing ball, Bruce, what what
are we gonna do together there? You know, just a little bit of that f
you know, more of that effort piece to to make sure everything
goes according to plan so we can have that moment of
truth, in in in March to see how things went.
(35:28):
Absolutely. But but that's the key. That's that's the
process that I think about when it's the first impact. And when we do that,
when we have that first QBR after implementation and we go through
the I made model and and check those boxes, and it's not, hey. You have
to start with metrics. It's not an, a chronological list of
topics. It's making sure, like, Medpick. You don't start with the MIMEDIC
(35:51):
and or Medpick and go through those. It's these are topics that somewhere
within the deal review, we should get to them. Same with core
ingredients. Yeah. Yeah. Core ingredients doesn't matter
what order you put them in. Mhmm. But you need these ingredients to make
sure that check, check, check, we have them in in our plan
in order to make sure that we're we have a chance to hit what our
(36:12):
end objective is, which is that we both have a common
understanding that we're both in this together in order to achieve
something that's you have said is worth achieving. The
reason that you bought this, putting the tangible to the intangible to
be able to get to that. And I would remind, hey. Here's the emotional
(36:33):
impact that you wanted to to go for. So that's why
we're doing this. You know, we're putting all this effort in and holding people accountable.
Okay? That's right. And, emotionally, we're gonna celebrate in March because we're both
hitting it out of the park at that point. So Yeah.
Good. Good. Well, hey. That's that's beautiful. You know, we we've talked about you
know, we've covered so much ground, But as it relates to First
(36:56):
Impact, you've really made this practical with the framework, Chuck. And,
you know, how do you set that up for success, both you and that
buyer for success? And then and then you then you earn the right
to both retain that customer and and grow that
customer because you're doing a great job with First
Impact. So this is a gift. It's a blind spot. It's a misstep
(37:18):
by so many, and thank you so much, Chuck, for breathing this
wisdom into the the, the sales process
and the buyer's journey. Anything that we haven't covered that you
wanted to mention just in conclusion, Chuck? Or I think
one of the things that I would I would, say, you know, taking it to
the next level, the best sellers not only know the process,
(37:40):
but they put it into some form of documentation. I'm a big believer in
digital sales rooms and mutual success plans. It's
that codotification that we shared whether the the first prospect
does it or not and contributes to it or not. It's creating that
experience, that confidence and clarity going back to the 3
c's. If you create that confidence and clarity through the
(38:03):
documentation to the buyer and showing them that you understand you're
no matter what you're selling, you're gonna set yourself as a cut above
all of the others by putting it in front of them and letting
them know, hey. I'm along with you to make sure that you are
successful and you stand a better chance by
working with me than with Brandex and the other
(38:25):
guy. So Absolutely. Yeah. And then also you're you're
derisking a little bit in the the business value narrative or
business case that you might be developing, as you talk about potential
risk and how are we gonna manage for this, having that the the this
first impact, this this motion as part of that should
create that confidence in in the outcome as part of that business case as
(38:47):
well for some of the bigger deals. Yeah. Well, very
cool. Well, Chuck, I I just wanna highlight, my thanks. And
then for everybody listening, you can find Chuck on LinkedIn,
people watching. I'm actually showing Chuck's beautiful LinkedIn
profile here, but definitely, find
Chuck on LinkedIn. The way you spell his last name is
(39:11):
marcouille r.
So and, you know, just look him up. He's there. Any other way in
LinkedIn that that they would type in to to find you? They can find me
on my website as well, sass enable. What do I do? I enable sass.
Okay. Easy as that. Okay. Sassenable.com, you said?
(39:31):
Or? Evil.com? Yep. Perfect. I didn't think I
could get that URL, but it was out there so I snagged it quick.
Nice. Nice. Well, Chuck, thanks so much. Really appreciate it.
My pleasure, Bruce. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to chat with you. You
bet. Well, that wraps up this episode of the ValuePro Show.
A huge thank you to Chuck Parculier for joining us and
(39:53):
sharing such actionable insights on creating meaningful impact
from the very first step. Remember, the journey towards delivering value
starts with clear alignment on what success looks like
for both you and your customer. If you enjoyed today's
discussion, make sure to connect with Chuck on LinkedIn and check
out his work at sas enable.com. Thanks
(40:16):
for tuning in, and as always, stay value ready.
Welcome to the value pro show where value pros get value
ready. Welcome back to another episode of the value pro
show. Today, we're diving into a crucial aspect of the sales
process that many overlook, selling for the elusive
first impact. And who better to help us unravel this than
the amazing Chuck Mercoulier? Chuck is a seasoned
(00:23):
expert in revenue enablement with over 30 years of experience
helping sales teams reach their highest potential. He's the founder
of SaaS enable and currently the VP of revenue enablement
at Freightwaves. Chuck is here to share his insights on how to
define and achieve that critical first impact that can
make all the difference between a deal moving forward or stalling
(00:45):
out. Buckle up as we explore what it means to be impact
ready and how to align with your buyer right from the
start. So welcome to the ValuePro Show, Chuck.
Everyone, we've got Chuck Marcoullier, and he's joining us to
talk about selling for the Illusive First Impact.
So, Chuck, thanks so much for being part of this. Thanks,
(01:07):
Bruce. I'm excited to be here. Awesome. Awesome. Well, hey. Let's
let's jump right in. Chuck, what is selling for the first
impact? How would you describe this? What definition will you put behind it?
I'm I'm glad you asked this. It's the most common
mistake that I see sellers and see us folks make
is we rush so much when we're first selling and getting
(01:30):
excited to bring a new prospect on that we,
spend a lot of time gathering their situation. We spend a lot of time
mining for pain, and then automatically we prescribe
something, but we don't understand the impact that they want
to have or we understand the ROI, but we don't
know the first stage of success that we both mutually define
(01:53):
in order to know that we're progressing to the agreed upon result. So
first impact is what is the first measurable
co agreed upon point that we can both come to
to say, yep. We're getting to the point that we both agreed we're going
to work towards in order to hit that end result.
Awesome, Chuck. Yeah. And I know, you and I were talking about our value
(02:16):
ready framework, and I'm I'm sure people checking out this show have probably seen it.
If you haven't, our listeners and watchers, it's off our
website at valuepros.i0, off of our resources store. You'll
even see a value ready assessment. But Chuck's talking about and what we
were talking about is how do you get impact ready? And and
Chuck brings this insight around, you know, how to sell for 1st
(02:38):
impact where you and your buyer have a really
good definition and alignment around what is impact.
So I I'm I'm really excited that we're gonna kinda break this down. It's so
important and often missing, Chuck, as both of you and I were talking about.
But, let let's move into the kind of the next type of dialogue, and and
why is selling for First Impact so important? What could you
(03:01):
share share there, Chuck? Well, I you know, I've been I've been
a seller, I've been a sales leader, and I've been doing sales enablement
for 30 years. So I've I've coached a lot of sellers
and, you know, made a lot of mistakes as a seller too. And the
thing is is that we often prescribe without fully diagnosed.
(03:22):
It. And the big thing is is that impact is
is really defining the value, and value is defined by the
receiver, not the giver. I wish somebody would have told me that earlier on in
my career. I didn't I didn't come into that until after I was, you know,
getting out as finishing up my career as a sales leader that somebody said, hey.
Did you know that value has to be really defined by the receiver,
(03:44):
not the giver? And it's you know, if
and and how do you know that you're getting to that value unless
the buyer tells you what their what's what's worth investing
in, what's worth actually putting their hard earned dollars and going through
the pain of making a change unless they stop and
actually tell you. Ab absolutely.
(04:07):
Totally agree. So, so far, we've talked about, you
know, just, you know, one of the mistakes you
often see, Chuck, and and this comes from you, but just
prescription without full diagnosis. And and we've always preached, you
know, in in in my world, you know, diagnose before you prescribe.
Even you yourself said it's malpractice when you don't. But you said
(04:29):
that that often happens, And then,
let's see here. You were also just talking about this
whole notion. Do you wanna just describe this for us in terms of the the
result that that we're trying to sell? Yeah. Because
so many of us are selling software. And in software,
we're selling the invisible. Right? It it it isn't like a
(04:53):
iPhone or TV or AirPods where you've got this tangible
thing that someone could touch. Right? And say, okay. I've I've got this thing. I
I know what it is. So when you buy software, Bruce, what are you
buying? You're buying the end result. Right? I'm
I'm buying a vehicle. I'm buying this tool in order to achieve an end
result. So it really becomes at that point, we've got
(05:15):
to it's it's so critical in order to keep this reoccurring
revenue because that's what we're selling software for is that reoccurring revenue,
is that we have to define what the impact the agreed
upon impact's going to be and what the first impact's
gonna be so that we know that we're headed down the road. I mean, how
many times have you been working with a customer where they say, hey,
(05:36):
Bruce. We've we think we have the market leading
software out there. We we we've been selling this stuff, but one of the
biggest problems we have is we have we have about a
30% churn, and somehow we've gotta stop the
hemorrhaging. We don't understand why. It's it's just our CSP
people. They just aren't aren't selling the value to our
(05:58):
customers and our and our sellers, they're not selling the right value.
Well, I probably go back and say, it's not
that they're not selling the value. It's just that they're not
reminding people that, hey, here's where you
were, and here's what happened along the journey, and here's how we took
you from your initial state to where you are
(06:20):
now. It's just like getting into Harvard. Remember all of those kids,
how excited they were? They get into an Ivy League school, and then
all of a sudden they get into Ivy League school. They have no worries. Right?
They got into an Ivy League school. Their their lives are set.
But there's as much depression at an Ivy League
school as there is at any other school. They should be the happiest people.
(06:42):
They're the the some of the best schools in the world. But, no, now they're
worried about everything else because the
goal post has moved. Now that you started working in this area
or have this new tool, you now have a new goalpost, and
you have to start figuring out what is the result and what's the measurement
that we're going to do in order to make sure that we're moving towards
(07:05):
the end result that we both agree upon, that that
promised land of happiness, that promised land of achievement,
which was the reason that we bought the the software in the first place and
the reason that we'll renew. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Make make sense. And, again, we're talking about why do
we wanna sell for 1st impact for creating that clarity
(07:27):
around the result. And speaking about clarity, Chuck, you'd
given me some of this wisdom on what what do buyers really want? Do you
wanna talk about this a little bit, the 3 c's that that you've
coined? It really came out in our conversation earlier where we you
know, because you you folks are the, you know, the value
pros. And how do you find value how do you define value today?
(07:49):
I mean, what do what do, buyers
need sellers for? I mean, one of the things that I heard on one of
your earlier podcasts is most people want to
buy online today. You know, do do people even need
human sellers anymore? And like you said, I would describe,
absolutely. But the need for human sellers has changed.
(08:12):
Ages ago, when I first got into selling, when you first got into selling, we
were the keepers of information. We had the information on the product. We had the
information on the marketplace, and sellers and buyers came to
us in order to get that valuable information. But
now with AI and the Internet, they have access to as much
information as we do on what's going on in the marketplace and what every
(08:33):
competitor has and what we have. Right? So so what's the
real value of the seller these days? Well, they come to us
for 3 key things. It's context.
So how is this thing really used? Can it be used in my world? Can
you adapt or or explain it in the lens that I need to understand it
in? It's Clari. How are you different than anybody else? And one of my
(08:56):
favorite questions is, Bruce, what's the difference between AT and T, Verizon, and T
Mobile, and you can't say Cover Jerry? Can you tell me?
Nope. I ain't over either. But they're spending 1,000,000,000 of
dollars each on marketing to try to convince you that you should move from one
to the other. Mhmm. But we know and when we don't
know and it's not clear what the difference is between 1 or
(09:19):
the other, we don't make changes. We decide not to decide. How
many of our deals these days, especially now, are lost to no
decision? No decision is our greatest competitor, and it's because we're not clear
on what makes us different. And then the last thing is
confidence. Am I confident that if I bet my job because that's what
your sponsor is doing, especially in companies these days, if I
(09:41):
go with your solution, if I tell everybody else in my organization that we have
to go with this this software and make this investment,
is it really gonna work out? So, yeah, I could buy it online,
but I don't know if it's really gonna work in our
organization the way I need it to work in our specific connections, our
specific way. Who else has done this? Is it really different than all the other
(10:04):
solutions that I see out there? I could do the chat gbt search, and they
tell me that there is a little bit of a difference, but I really don't
understand it. And I need to look somebody. I need a human being to tell
me it's gonna be okay. And if those
conditions aren't there, we don't have a tendency to buy.
But we buy because, again, coming back to impact, we buy because of that
(10:24):
perceived value, that perceived impact. Value equals impact.
What is how am I gonna be better off because I went through this process
and made this investment? What is the result? What is the pain that's gonna go
away? Because we we buy primarily on the avoidance
of pain more than the anticipation of gain.
And or would how is my work gonna be different? And is
(10:47):
it worth the pain of change? Is the pain or the
gain of a better tomorrow worth more
than the cost of having to make a change? That's right. It
is. Yeah. But how do I know it's going well?
When I'm in the trenches and I'm making this change, when
(11:07):
and there's that that famous sort of curve that,
hey, things get worse before they get better. We break
stuff. We go through the unlearning curve. I used to be an expert on the
old system. I thought I knew the new system, but
it's a little harder than I had thought before I become an expert at
this this new system that you have me in to
(11:29):
be able to get that understanding. But we have to persevere through that. If
we don't, we never get to the full result that we anticipated
getting. But if we do, we've got to get our customers.
Then we have it, you know, to to really make that investment. Then we stand
a chance of getting that result that we both went into this
opportunity for. Absolutely. Yeah. We've covered a lot
(11:51):
of ground here, but, and, also, I want to introduce, Chuck, a a
concept. I don't think I'd mentioned this to you. I'd like I'd love your reaction.
But I also think about, the value fog, especially as
it relates to indecision that you were talking about and and how high that
is. One of the latest stats I've been throwing around is indecision's at
60%. You know? In in a SaaS world that you're talking
(12:13):
about, you know, on average, it might be 1.5 out of or
2 out of 10 deals might close, 20% close rate. End
decision, 60%. The competition gets 25%.
You're stuck with 1.5 out of 10 deals that that you're closing,
which is horrible. And I think one of the biggest reasons for that is what
I call the value fog that, the customer and,
(12:36):
the buyer and the seller didn't do a a really good job
of understanding the result that you were talking about. About. What what are we shooting
for? What's possible? Or and, also, what goes away in
terms of the the impact that goes away creating the opportunity?
So, you know, ultimately, what we wanna do is clear that value fog and
get super yeah. I I love what you say. Context,
(12:59):
clarity around the result that we're looking for, and then confidence that we can achieve
it to move forward. You know, great great framework,
Chuck, on the 3 c's. I I I think that characterizes it really well.
So why don't we, move into a little bit of
how to land now? You know, what, and and I think you've got
some ideas what not to do and also what to do.
(13:23):
So take it from here, Chuck, and I'll just support where we where we go
from here. I I think one of the things that we have to think about
is, you know, prescription without diagnosis. You know,
it's one of the things that we have to do is go back to the
concept of value is defined by
the receiver, not the giver. And it goes back
to and forgive me for I want to share sort of a personal
(13:46):
story, because it illustrated it so
clearly for me. My mother passed away before
Christmas, you know, several years ago.
And my father was was old school, and he was like, I am
not going to pay $2,000. And my mother wanted to
be cremated. He goes, I am not gonna pay $2,000 for
(14:09):
an urn for your mother. He goes, she deserves better than that, and that's
just paying for for a a porcelain jar $2,000
would be she'd be horrified that that's stupid. So he looked at
me and my brother and he said, boys, go out, find
something really good for your mother that's worth it. Make sure it's valuable.
(14:29):
And we're like, what are we gonna do? What what the heck does he mean?
Now to give you a little context, my father graduated from Syracuse
with a degree in forestry. He was a forester and a surveyor
for most of his life before becoming a sales guy for Champion Lumber. So he
love he was a wood guy. He called himself a wood deck. He loved
woods. We knew we gotta go find a beautiful
(14:52):
wooden box for mom that's just stunning. Yeah. Where are we
gonna find it? I don't know. So we're wandering around Milwaukee looking
in all these furniture stores, jewelry stores for this
beautiful box. We got tired, got hungry, so we went to the
mall. What do you guys do? I go to the mall. So as we're wandering
around the mall near Christmas, we see these vendors who, of course,
(15:13):
pop up vendors. There's this guy who's selling humidors. And all of a sudden, I
tap my brother on the shoulder and I say, Jay, look. Look at this.
There's this gorgeous cherry wood humidor.
Just absolute perfect. My father adores cherry wood. It's
lacquered. It's a beautiful color, beautiful texture. We go over and we say,
okay. So tell us about it. Guy tells us about it, tells us all the
(15:36):
features and functionality of it, and he goes into this. This is a beautiful
handmade box. It's top of the line, it has state of the
art humidity control, it is velvet
lined, it is absolutely the best on the market for
maintaining the perfect temperature control and maintaining your cigars. And we go, okay,
great. If I go get that, go grab my My, 70
(15:58):
plus year old father, bring him out to the mall and we see dad, we
found the perfect thing. Here it is. He takes a look at it. He asked
the guy, this is great. How much? Guy says, $150.
He goes, why? He goes, well, it's state of the art. It's
fantastic craftsmanship. But the real value
is humidity control. He goes, that's great. How much
(16:19):
without the humidity control? He goes, sir, I cannot sell you this without the humidity
control. It is really the reason why this is such a state that he
goes, yeah. Yeah. Great. How much without the humidity control? He goes, it would just
absolutely ruin your cigars without humidity control. He goes,
sir, how much without the humidity control? He goes,
sir, I can't sell it to you without the humidity control. He goes,
(16:42):
sir, ask me what I'm gonna do with this damn box.
He goes, all right, what are you gonna do with the damn box? He said,
my wife died. I cremated her. I'm putting her in this. She doesn't care what
the humidity is. How much without the humidity control? He
goes, 75. He goes, alright.
Sold. And we just sat there and chuckled
(17:03):
and laughed. And I know that's a little bit of a morbid story, but it
it just sat there and illustrated more than anything else.
The seller was not listening to my dad. He did not he
cared about the box. The value was in the box. The value wasn't in the
humidity control. And think about it. How many times do we as sellers get
caught up in our technology, our our doodad that's in the center,
(17:24):
our feature that we think everybody's gonna buy because of this
piece, because that's how we define it.
It's not about the humidity control.
Sometimes it's about what how the customer wants to use it.
And so when we look at impact, we've really gotta take
and I see so many sellers who forget in the process
(17:49):
that impact, you know, they mind for pain, but they
forget the step of asking and listening for
impact. So let's let's pull that apart. Gotcha. I wanted to make
one quick point on that. You know, for people
watching this episode with Chuck, and myself, it I'm
showing a an iceberg. And, of course, we know
(18:11):
an iceberg, you there's things above the above the surface and down
below. And I I I think your story, Chuck, is really
beautiful because that seller wasn't really probing for needs at
all. He he made assumptions around needs, and and hence
that's why he was saying, hey. We're not willing to budge on the
product, but not not not digging a little deeper. Level 2,
(18:33):
level 3 type of deeper to really understand the pain and
and as you say, the potential impact. So, anyways, just
wanted to share this as well. Should we talk then about the,
the types of impact, Chuck? Or No. Let's let's talk or let's
let's unpack impact. Yeah. Yeah.
You know, impact's one of my favorite topics to sit there and get into with
(18:56):
sellers because it's one of those things where we
we surface level talk about it, but we don't really understand it.
Now I like to say that there's 2 types of impact,
and there are 3 stages of impact that we have
to remember in the sales process. So the types of
impact are emotional and rational impact. There's the logical.
(19:19):
So, Bruce, in your experience, buyers make
decisions primarily on emotion or logic.
Yeah. Or emotion for sure. There's data around that
as well. Absolutely. We're we're emotional
creatures who talk logic or make decisions with a thin
veneer of logic. We speak this logical language, but
(19:41):
we decide on emotion. So when we're when we're
diagnosing, when we're sitting there and talking to our prospects, one of the things we
have to listen for and and rationalize, what are the what is the
ROI? What is the monetary return? What's the benefit to the company? But
emotionally, we have to sit there and think, are we listening for why does this
person care? What's the benefit to them for sponsoring or doing this
(20:02):
process? And if there isn't, then we're missing, you know,
half of the solution. So any level of impact or
stage of impact, we're always listening to the emotional impact and the rational
impact and put a big asterisk underline and
whoopee light on the emotional. If the emotional impact is that there, I'm on a
coaching reps. If they can't tell me what the emotional impact is for the person
(20:23):
that they say is gonna sponsor it, I don't believe the deal is gonna come
in because why is the person gonna do it?
Because it's yeah. Why do I care for the benefit that the the
company is gonna save x amount of dollars? Unless I'm the owner, the major stockholder,
and rarely are we talking to them. Why does a mid level person care?
It's nice, but it's not the driving factor. Yeah.
(20:46):
Absolutely, Chuck. One of our affiliates, he's got a
model, that that we lead with very often. We call it the value triad,
but there's there's 3 components of that emotion, and
that's typically the biggest factor as you talk about, you know, people, you
know, decide an emotion and they justify with with rationale.
But part of the rationale would be, the financial dimension of revenue
(21:09):
enhancing benefits, cost reducing benefits associated with
the change, and how do you frame all that up? But,
again, just just to give you a a framing, the value triad is
what we we teach quite often. Yeah. Just to to the word
for just a second. I was I was Gong's 5th customer. And do you know
how Gong was able to close me? Gong was able to close
(21:31):
as I wanted to be my daughter's lacrosse coach. And
he said, what would it be like you know, what's what is one thing you
really wanna do, Chuck? And I said, you know what? Part of
my role as the director of sales enablement at this organization
is I have to review, and and coach a lot of
calls. I gotta be on a lot of calls. And the and this is when
(21:52):
call recording, call intelligence was just in its infancy.
So what if they were all recorded? You could listen to them at 1 and
a half speed, and you could do it whenever you wanted to.
I said, then I could be a coach. He said, what would it mean to
you to be a coach? I said, I could finally be a hero to my
daughter for at least 1 year. I've been a workaholic.
(22:14):
That is so funny. I'll do it. I'll
do it. I'll sponsor this. That is awesome. I think I've heard this
story. I don't know if I told you. I I worked with Gong a a
year and a half ago and built one in one of their sales narratives. I
might have heard this story. That is awesome. Full circle. Full circle
moment. Peter heard it loud. But,
(22:36):
definitely well, should we talk about the
stages? Yeah. Let's talk about the stages. So when we talk
about the stages, there are really 3 different distinct
stages of impact that we've gotta ask for
and understand and diagnose. And a lot of
times, people talk about the solution impact, What's the impact?
(22:58):
What's the ROI of making the change? We love to do that because we've got
our studies and our stats. But sandwiched in between are the
2 that we often forget. And what's the impact of the status quo? So early
on in the discovery is we sit there and say, hey, Bruce. What's the problem
at your organization? We should also be asking for, oh, that's really
interesting. What does that mean? What is that
(23:19):
costing? What's that causing? When you don't if you
don't address that, what's what's happening? What's the drag
on your overall process? That's the impact of the
status quo. If there is no real impact of the
status quo, they're not gonna change no matter what.
And, again, hearsay is not admissible in the court of sales. If they
(23:41):
haven't said it, we don't know it. So we have to have them say
that there is a real cost, not tangible
cost, could be an emotional cost, but there is a real cost
to the way businesses done now. Otherwise, they're not gonna vote to
change. And then, of course, the solution impact, this the the status
quo impact, the solution impact. Oftentimes,
(24:03):
sellers end there. But the really good sellers, the really good sellers,
and really good CS people understand that there's one more one more
stage, and I like to call it the hidden stage, and that's the first impact.
So we said, okay. We're going for 3
x. We're gonna we're gonna improve your conversion rates. We're gonna reduce,
you know, we're gonna improve your overall revenue, reduce your cost because
(24:26):
people only buy software for two reasons, reduce their cost and improve
their revenue. Right? But we have to say, alright. How do we know
we're on the right road? We have
to sit take the steps of defining first impact. How are we both
going to make the investment and know that we're
both taking the steps in order to achieve that first
(24:48):
milestone to know that both parties have made both
good faith efforts to go down the road so that there can be
success. And that's the first impact. So, Chuck, this has
been great. You know, just to put this into some vernacular that I I see
a lot of people talking about. With status quo, you're really trying to look at,
you know, what's the cost of inaction there? You know, what's the cost of that
(25:10):
pain, that problem situation? What's the cause or or the
cost and also the causes. I loved how you frame that. The solution
impact, that might be, you know, hey. What's a potential ROI that we could
achieve together over, say, 1, 2, or 3 year period?
But then, what's what's really neat and I I think a blind spot
for so many is what you coin as first impact.
(25:33):
How do we prove that the cost is going away and we
are on our path to achieving that ROI as part of that
first impact? And and and that's a a a point in time,
not way down the road, but and I know you'll push into this a little
bit more. Absolutely. I wish I was the
person who coined first impact, but I'm I you know, they say,
(25:55):
I wanna be the smartest guy in the room without a single original thought. This
is this is Chaco winning by design, kinda.
I shamelessly stole from him. But I love the concept and
always looking to improve improve on it. But first impact for me, I
but the acronym I came up with is I made.
(26:15):
And when I say first, the framework I made is I I
I'm the one you know, I'm I'm an engineer by background, though I've
never engineered anything. I went to school to become an engineer. And
so I'm always looking for models. And for me, I had to think of something
that would allow me to anchor to. And I made is the acronym.
So impact, there are 4 keys to
(26:38):
getting to that first impact. It's
metrics. It's,
first of all, you have to have agree upon what what are we gonna measure?
How are we gonna know that we're making progress? What's a
tangible, realistic piece that we can
both see and count that both sides are invested,
(27:01):
and we're seeing movement towards that final end result
that's worth achieving. Mhmm. Then the second piece
is, of course, accountability.
Who's going to do what, and what can we hold each accountable
for? Then the this third thing
is date driven. Alright? If we don't have a time bound, just like
(27:24):
any goal, we've gotta sit there on both sides agreed to, you're
gonna do this by this date. I'm gonna do this by this date. So we
know that we're making progress together. And part of that date
driven piece is what are we gonna get back together to really
look to ensure that we've achieved that first measurement
that's worth achieving. And then the 3rd piece is
(27:46):
explicit effort. What's the effort that we both agree we're going to
put in? What's the skin in the game? So many times we as vendors say,
what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna
do this, and I put it on your side, and then I go away, never
asking if you're actually gonna do anything on your side prospect.
That's a mistake. Any software implementation has to
be a partnership. It has to be, hey. I'm going to give you this. I'm
(28:09):
gonna do the the training, but who on your side is going to
fill in the data, put in your
standards, define your value, whatever it may be in
order to make sure that the software actually works. If both
sides aren't actually go putting it in there,
if the actual users or the department that it's it's designed
(28:32):
for, don't actually get in there and start to use it because there is,
of course, that learning curve, that breakage curve, that if there
isn't a commitment by senior leaders on both sides to go through that and get
to some end stage and they come back and meet, did both
sides meet the expectations, then we're not gonna have
a renewal. It's gonna be vaporware, shelfware. And, of course, the end user's
(28:54):
gonna say, oh, I hate it. It sucked. It didn't do what it did. Did
we even try it? Well no. But I just knew by looking at it.
Smelled bad.
Yep. I I love the framework. I just wanna, recap for
everybody on this, Chuck, just for especially for our listeners. You know,
Chuck is illustrating this framework impact,
(29:15):
or I made, which is really interesting. So you start
with impact, and and Chuck has talked about the different types of impact that we're
looking for, those 3 types. But then we need to, end
stages. Excuse me. 22 types, emotional and rational, and then we
have the stages. Now, you know, that that's impact. But
then how do we move towards first impact, where you talk
(29:38):
about metrics, getting really clear on what we're gonna measure for,
accountability, how we're gonna keep ourselves accountable to to tracking
that? Let's have a date on the calendar being date driven
where we know that, you know, you and I have to look each other in
the eyes and see how we did, and putting effort into this whole,
puzzle, especially to get over that that,
(29:59):
you know, trough of disillusionment and and getting that value,
making sure there's effort. So we are achieving that impact. I
I I love it, Chuck. It's a it's a great model. Thank
you. Thank you. It's it's helped. So let's let's put this into play.
What what would that sound like? And it's one thing to sit there and say
to a model, but let's talk about how we put it in play. And,
(30:20):
Bruce, do you mind if I I play it with you? Yeah, please.
Yeah. I'll I'll be a a consultant from Value
Pros, and you'll be a a buyer for of
Value Pros. And what I'm doing is I'm selling you a, a
coaching model. We're gonna come in. We're gonna coach for the explicit,
purpose. We're gonna improve your overall discovery process.
(30:44):
By going through the Value Pros model, we're gonna improve your discovery process. And the
end outcome, Bruce, is that if you use the
Value Pros, learning program and coaching
program, we will guarantee that you'll improve your
conversion rate from your SQLs to your SALs. Is
that worth achieving? Yeah. What are we talking
(31:05):
about? Well, some of our some of
our customers have if if we even achieve a 5%
improvement in conversion rate, what would that be dollar wise given your ARR?
Yeah. Yeah. Me as CRO. Oh my god. That it hits my top
line hugely, and it's all straight to the bottom line as well
because my cost structure doesn't really change. So, yeah, that that
(31:27):
that's really juicy. So let's take Bruce,
so let's identify 2 teams. 2 of your leaders
because we out we we can't do everybody, but let's get 2 leaders to
get success in this. I like to call them the domino reps or the domino
teams. If we can get them to tip, everybody else will tip. Let's get
2 teams that we're gonna run the program on, and then
(31:49):
let's sit there and figure out for 1 quarter. Let's get
them trained and certified, tested. Let's get them trained, make sure that they
understood and certified. But let's also coach your leaders to make sure
that they know how to coach and measure on
what we train them on for the improved discovery process. Mhmm. And
then what I need your you to commit to and
(32:11):
have your reps, your your leaders commit to is that they are
going to coach at least one recorded call
of your reps each week. Is that something that you could
hold your leaders accountable to? Yeah. Mhmm. I
know the teams. I yes. Mhmm. So we'll train
at your SKO on the 2nd week of January by the end of the 2nd
(32:34):
week of January. By the end of January, do you believe well,
how how long do you think it will take that, they could take the
test and say that they understand the basic material that
we we did for discovery a week? Yeah. Yeah.
That should be fine. Okay. So we want at least
90% of your people to pass the certification and the test
(32:57):
by the 3rd week of January, and we're gonna have your leaders coached
on how to coach and how to inspect and how to to measure
a call. Right? And then what we're going
to look for is about at the end of February, we're gonna
see if your leaders are actually coaching the calls. I'm gonna have a call with
you to make sure that and we're gonna see in your system if they're coaching
(33:18):
the calls, and we'll do a touch base with your leaders as well. But then
what I want to do is I want to have a live Zoom with you
and your leaders and your rev ops leader as well in order
to look at the conversion metrics. Metrics. What I need you to do, will you
share with me your current conversion metrics on both your
reps and your leaders in those two teams as of the
(33:40):
end of, fiscal year 24 to see that we can
make at least an incremental change within the Q1. Because if we're doing
this right, it's gonna be a little disruption before they they get this right. But
I bet if we could see at least a 2% increase across the
teams in aggregate, will that give you an indication that we're heading in the right
direction to achieve that overall 5% increase by the end of the year? Oh,
(34:02):
absolutely. Yeah. Makes sense. Okay. Great.
I feel like that will give us an indication whether we're, you know,
the investment is heading in the right direction or whether there are things that we
can incrementally do in order course correct to get your folks to the desired
outcome that, you're making this investment for. But we
both have to be. Yep. Yeah. And then we'll know if
(34:25):
we need to scale it at that point. That's that's perfect.
Right. So did you hear a tangible metric?
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. 2% to 5%.
Right? Did you hear a
an accountability plan? Who's gonna do what?
(34:45):
Mhmm. Did you hear a date? What was the dates? Were we talking
specific dates? Yeah. Yeah. January,
3rd week of January, mid February,
March, we're gonna do the QBR. And then effort, who's
gonna do what? Who's who's responsible for doing what?
(35:05):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. No. We covered the whole model. One thing we probably coulda
added is, hey. If the leaders aren't playing ball, Bruce, what what
are we gonna do together there? You know, just a little bit of that f
you know, more of that effort piece to to make sure everything
goes according to plan so we can have that moment of
truth, in in in March to see how things went.
(35:28):
Absolutely. But but that's the key. That's that's the
process that I think about when it's the first impact. And when we do that,
when we have that first QBR after implementation and we go through
the I made model and and check those boxes, and it's not, hey. You have
to start with metrics. It's not an, a chronological list of
topics. It's making sure, like, Medpick. You don't start with the MIMEDIC
(35:51):
and or Medpick and go through those. It's these are topics that somewhere
within the deal review, we should get to them. Same with core
ingredients. Yeah. Yeah. Core ingredients doesn't matter
what order you put them in. Mhmm. But you need these ingredients to make
sure that check, check, check, we have them in in our plan
in order to make sure that we're we have a chance to hit what our
(36:12):
end objective is, which is that we both have a common
understanding that we're both in this together in order to achieve
something that's you have said is worth achieving. The
reason that you bought this, putting the tangible to the intangible to
be able to get to that. And I would remind, hey. Here's the emotional
(36:33):
impact that you wanted to to go for. So that's why
we're doing this. You know, we're putting all this effort in and holding people accountable.
Okay? That's right. And, emotionally, we're gonna celebrate in March because we're both
hitting it out of the park at that point. So Yeah.
Good. Good. Well, hey. That's that's beautiful. You know, we we've talked about you
know, we've covered so much ground, But as it relates to First
(36:56):
Impact, you've really made this practical with the framework, Chuck. And,
you know, how do you set that up for success, both you and that
buyer for success? And then and then you then you earn the right
to both retain that customer and and grow that
customer because you're doing a great job with First
Impact. So this is a gift. It's a blind spot. It's a misstep
(37:18):
by so many, and thank you so much, Chuck, for breathing this
wisdom into the the, the sales process
and the buyer's journey. Anything that we haven't covered that you
wanted to mention just in conclusion, Chuck? Or I think
one of the things that I would I would, say, you know, taking it to
the next level, the best sellers not only know the process,
(37:40):
but they put it into some form of documentation. I'm a big believer in
digital sales rooms and mutual success plans. It's
that codotification that we shared whether the the first prospect
does it or not and contributes to it or not. It's creating that
experience, that confidence and clarity going back to the 3
c's. If you create that confidence and clarity through the
(38:03):
documentation to the buyer and showing them that you understand you're
no matter what you're selling, you're gonna set yourself as a cut above
all of the others by putting it in front of them and letting
them know, hey. I'm along with you to make sure that you are
successful and you stand a better chance by
working with me than with Brandex and the other
(38:25):
guy. So Absolutely. Yeah. And then also you're you're
derisking a little bit in the the business value narrative or
business case that you might be developing, as you talk about potential
risk and how are we gonna manage for this, having that the the this
first impact, this this motion as part of that should
create that confidence in in the outcome as part of that business case as
(38:47):
well for some of the bigger deals. Yeah. Well, very
cool. Well, Chuck, I I just wanna highlight, my thanks. And
then for everybody listening, you can find Chuck on LinkedIn,
people watching. I'm actually showing Chuck's beautiful LinkedIn
profile here, but definitely, find
Chuck on LinkedIn. The way you spell his last name is
(39:11):
marcouille r.
So and, you know, just look him up. He's there. Any other way in
LinkedIn that that they would type in to to find you? They can find me
on my website as well, sass enable. What do I do? I enable sass.
Okay. Easy as that. Okay. Sassenable.com, you said?
(39:31):
Or? Evil.com? Yep. Perfect. I didn't think I
could get that URL, but it was out there so I snagged it quick.
Nice. Nice. Well, Chuck, thanks so much. Really appreciate it.
My pleasure, Bruce. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to chat with you. You
bet. Well, that wraps up this episode of the ValuePro Show.
A huge thank you to Chuck Parculier for joining us and
(39:53):
sharing such actionable insights on creating meaningful impact
from the very first step. Remember, the journey towards delivering value
starts with clear alignment on what success looks like
for both you and your customer. If you enjoyed today's
discussion, make sure to connect with Chuck on LinkedIn and check
out his work at sas enable.com. Thanks
(40:16):
for tuning in, and as always, stay value ready.
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