February 19, 2025 • 40 mins
This week our host Sarah and co-host Joe chat with Dr. Erin Burns (Michigan State University) and Dr. Dan Quinn (Purdue University) about short corn. What makes it different from standard corn? What does weed control look like? Listen to find out!
Erin’s Links:
https://www.canr.msu.edu/weeds/
Dan’s Links:
https://ag.purdue.edu/department/agry/faculty-pages/the-kernel/
X: @PurdueCorn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Lancaster (00:00):
Sarah, welcome back to the war against weeds
(00:08):
podcast. This is SarahLancaster, extension weed
management specialist at KansasState University. I am here this
afternoon with the good doctor.Joseph Ikley, how are you, Joe?
Joe Ikley (00:19):
I'm good. The groundhog said something about
winter yesterday, and I'm hereto say he's a liar. It'll be
longer than whatever heproclaimed.
Sarah Lancaster (00:29):
Yeah but that's because you live in the tundra.
All right. So the real topic athand today, besides a rodent
from Pennsylvania, is to talkabout short corn, and to talk
about short corn we have withus. Erin Burns Howdy, Erin!
Erin Burns (00:49):
hi everyone. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Lancaster (00:52):
And Dan Quinn,
Dan Quinn (00:54):
hello. Thanks for having me as well.
Sarah Lancaster (00:57):
This is going to be a great chat. And I think
it's something that is, isprobably in the mind of folks,
as we you know, just look at atNew techs that are coming for
the future. So Dan, let's startwith you. Do you want to tell
the audience a little bit aboutwhat you do and where you're
from?
Dan Quinn (01:13):
Yeah. So I'm assistant professor of agronomy,
and also the extension cornagronomist for Purdue
University. Been at Purdueactually be four years this
spring. But by way of Michigan,I've been, you know, I grew up
in Michigan. I actually rememberwhen Erin was hired, because I
was in grad school up there,Michigan State. Two degrees at
(01:37):
Michigan State and plant soils.Got my PhD in corn management
and plant soil science down atKentucky, and then landed in
Purdue. So I worked above thestate, worked below the state,
and then now we're in the middleof the state. So, but my I
always say my role is all thingsand everything corn. So if it
(01:58):
has to do with corn, I'm usuallyinvolved with it some way or
somehow.
Sarah Lancaster (02:02):
Yeah, that's awesome. Erin. How about you?
Erin Burns (02:07):
Hi, I'm Erin Burns, and you have a small world.
We'll let you be a boilermakerfor now, Dan, but Sparty at
heart. I'm at Michigan StateUniversity. I'm a weed
scientist, or Yeah, extensionspecialist in Weed Science,
started in the summer of 2017 soit's been a few years now, and I
mostly focused on weed controland corn forages and potatoes.
(02:29):
So dabbled by feet in the shortcorn world, and excited to hear
more about your perspectives.
Sarah Lancaster (02:36):
So let's kind of go back to the beginning
here. Dan, I think this is onethat maybe you could take the
lead on, yeah. What is shortcorn?
Dan Quinn (02:47):
Yeah? So, you know, you know, literally, it's, it's,
it's shorter corn, right? Soit's really been developed as a,
you know, through breedingprocesses for a long period of
time. So they often refer to itas short stature. You know, a
lot of the companies have, Iappreciate their names, you
know, some are, I think smart,smart corn, and, you know,
(03:09):
reduced stature corn, but yeah,it's just really a shorter
plant. Is where it comes in. Youknow, short corn is not new. It
actually came about. I forget,you know, how many years ago I
know Stein seed, and, you know,there was, was kind of an effort
in it, you know, quite a fewyears ago didn't really pan out.
(03:32):
They had a lot of troubles withit. And then now they've, I
think, with breedingtechnologies today, and the way
they can breed, and betterbreeding technologies, I think
it, you know, they've kind ofreinvigorated that over a period
of time. But, yeah, it's, it'sreally just, you know, corn
hybrid, very similar genetics inthat corn hybrid, but just a
reduced stature on that. Youknow, across our trials, it's
(03:56):
usually about two feet shorteron average, and that can vary
based on the hybrids, but, but,you know, when we talk short
corn, it's, it's literally justa shorter plant, yeah,
Erin Burns (04:07):
so what do you call traditional stature corn? That's
our issue is, what do we wealways have problems. Now we
call it short corn. That makessense. So is it tall corn, or is
there like a going rate to whatwe should be calling our
traditional or,
Dan Quinn (04:22):
yes, full stature. That's, that's the same question
I get. You know, well, this istall corn. Well, what? How do
you know it's tall, right?What's the definition of tall
corn, right? So, you know,
Sarah Lancaster (04:36):
yeah, I'm having some memories of walking
breeding plots the summer Iinterned for Pioneer and just
seeing, right? Even just withinbreeding lines, there's
difference between lines,
Dan Quinn (04:50):
yeah, because even if you go back to, like, open
pollinated varieties of corn andor even silage varieties of
corn, right, they're they'remuch bigger and much taller. I.
And then even comparing, youknow, the typical, your normal
corn hybrids, to them, they'reshorter. And then now we're
going going even shorter. So Iwas kind of, you know, related a
(05:10):
little bit to wheat, you know,we kind of went, went through
this, you know, in terms ofshortening its stature and the
difference in heights of thevariety. So they're starting to
take it to corn a little bit. So
Sarah Lancaster (05:22):
should we talk through, like, the advantages
and maybe disadvantages of thatreduce height?
Dan Quinn (05:29):
Yeah, I can, you know, talk on my side, just
from, you know, agronomic. Ithink, you know, probably the
biggest piece, and that you'llhear is, is wind, wind
tolerance. You know, the youlook at, you know, derecho
issues out in Iowa and Illinois.We, we actually had a short corn
trial this year in southernIndiana that that got hit by the
(05:51):
hurricane remnants out ofFlorida. And I have a my grad
student went out, you know,farmer, farm manager calls so
you got down corn. It's like,well, let's, let's fly it. Let's
get a UAV up there. And he couldpinpoint every single plot he
had with the tall corn versusthe short corn to the line, the
tall corn was down and the shortrun was still standing. So I
(06:15):
think that's a really big pieceof it, you know, the other piece
of it from, you know, my side isaccess to get over, get over the
crop, right? You think aboutfungicides. You think about late
season nitrogen applications aswell. Corn is a pain to get over
top of. It's a pain to spray attassel when you're trying to get
those fungicides. You also havethat pain if you're relying on
(06:39):
airplanes or helicopters. Youknow, getting it scheduled and
getting it on, getting thecoverage is a pain. So a lot of
the farmers I work with and talkto about it, I would say their
biggest interest is the access,you know, just hey, I can take
my John Deer or case sprayerthat I have and and spray my
corn with fungicide. I don'thave to have a haggie come in
(07:00):
that's hired, or a plane or someof these things. So I think
that's, you know, those are twoof the biggest, you know,
reasons that that I've seenwhere the short stature corn
comes in.
Sarah Lancaster (07:14):
So this is a little maybe more academic, but
what does it do for things likenutrient nitrogen, use
efficiency, things like that.Yeah,
Dan Quinn (07:25):
you know, we're, we're still pretty great, you
know, pretty new in that area,but we've been doing quite a few
nutrient management trials withit, and we're going to keep
expanding on that. From thenitrogen side, everything that
we have seen has been thenitrogen use is very similar. We
haven't seen any indicationsthat you need more or less
(07:46):
nitrogen. With the corn, thenitrogen uptake seems to be
pretty similar. We have someindications that, you know, one
thing we've seen with corn, justin general, with breeding over
time, is that the plants take upnitrogen a little bit later, and
we're starting we're seeing thateven more so with the short
stature corn. So you thinkabout, you know, side dress or
(08:09):
in season nitrogen applications,there may be more of a play
there, because it uses and takesup nitrogen a little bit later
in the plant. But again, that wewe don't really know yet,
because we're still really earlyon testing a lot of these
agronomic questions. We've kindof just started with, Hey, let's
look at nitrogen rates. We haveno indication from our data that
(08:32):
optimum end rates need to changewith with the short Stature
corn, but we have seen kind ofdifferences in the timing of an
uptake and that may play intolater season and application. So
we have a study this year thatwe're looking at an application
timing. So we're and nitrogen isreally the only nutrient we've
really dove into yet with withthis short stature corn too. So
(08:55):
you think about phosphorus,potassium, sulfur, all these
things we we just haven't,haven't gotten that far yet. But
obviously job security, I guess,with with looking at every time,
you know, from an agronomic sideto like, like mine, every time
you get this pretty dramaticchange, and say, a corn hybrid,
it's like, well, I guess we cango back and look at these. You
(09:19):
know, I would say simplequestions, right? Okay, what are
planning day? What's Eatingrate, what's nitrogen rate, you
know, we did some defoliationtrials, you know. So there's a
lot of things we can startlooking at almost again with
this hybrid as compared to theother hybrids.
Sarah Lancaster (09:38):
And so, I guess Erin, one of those things to
look at again, is weedmanagement concerns, right,
right?
Erin Burns (09:45):
And I think short, corn has an interesting
implication. Because I was goingto ask you, Dan, about if you've
done work with seeding rates. Sowe haven't, you know, I think
about like playing around withseeding rates in soybean that
has a really large implicationon weed competition, because we.
Think about weeds. They, youknow, complete for water,
nutrients and light and light'sa huge one, and one that I think
(10:06):
now we can start thinking abouta little bit more about pros and
cons of having shorter staturedcorn, but also being able to
increase the the seeding rate.So if you're able to increase
seeding rates of corn, which wehaven't, it's kind of one of
been one of those principles,quote, unquote, that's been
devised by someone, however longago, and at least at the trials
(10:28):
we've looked at really beingable to push those seeding
rates. And would that have longterm benefits for weed
competition, you know, on thoseends. So Dan, I don't know what
seeding rates Have you guyslooked at? Yeah,
Dan Quinn (10:43):
we've, we've gone so probably bulk of our work has
been seed rates. We've kind oflaying it on one that the short
Stature actually probably needsto be at a higher seeding rate
if you're going to manage it,just in terms of yield levels.
We've, we've found in a lot ofour trials, that, on average,
needs to be about 20% higher,which, you know, average for
(11:05):
tall corn for us, you knowballpark lot of times, 32,000 is
a ballpark number for a lot ofour farmers. Short stature corn,
you probably need to be 3638,000 now that also, we've seen
that It tolerates the highseeding rates really well. And
then we've also looked at narrowrows. So we bring in that factor
(11:26):
narrow rows, it does really wellin narrow rows. And then you
bring in narrow rows by seedingrates. We push it up to 50,000
and the yield actually keepsgoing up. So where other hybrids
we haven't seen that, or even in30 inch rows, we haven't seen
that. I think, you know, we'vewe're still trying to understand
(11:49):
it. But I think there ispotential that the seed rate,
one maybe needs to be higher,but also can be higher and it
can tolerate it better. Anotherthing, I think, with what weed
control, aspect that we foundwith short stature corn is the
leaf area. So the, you know, youalways think, well, the corn
plants shorter, so the biomassis lower. And it's actually not
(12:10):
the case. A lot of times thebiomass is the same. It just
kind of allocates as biomass alittle bit differently. So we've
seen like the leaves be wider,right? So you think about
shading out in terms of weedcontrol, but we're also
concerned on the disease side,right, that impact air flow, but
a lot of times the leaves arewider. So I think there's, you
(12:34):
know, potential on the weedside, maybe where you could have
the higher pops and have thewider leaves, where it really
shades out. One of the those,those weeds, I think,
Erin Burns (12:47):
when I think about weeds, you know, with weeds with
extended emergence patterns,such as, you know, I'm in
Michigan, we have a lot of waterhemp that's kind of our, our
new, more troublesome weed thathas the ability to germinate
whenever it decides it wants toI can think about maybe Sarah
and Joe. What are your what?What weeds Do you think in your
areas with this maybe have somebenefits on
Joe Ikley (13:10):
water? Yeah, we, we have plenty of weeds, but the
the extended emergence patternwhen they're going to do what
they want to do is waterhemp. Wehave plenty of Kochia problems,
but that's more of an earlyseason thing, not as big of a
deal in corn.
Sarah Lancaster (13:28):
Yeah. I mean, Palmer is my number one weed
across the state, and everythingthat we have to deal with. But I
guess the one that keeps comingto my mind is I've got some
farmers, really, all over theeastern half of the state that
have been asking questions aboutHophornbeam copperleaf because
it specifically comes up laterin the season, and so it's hard
(13:51):
to get a herbicide applicationthat it might work on. So as Dan
was thinking about or talkingabout later nitrogen fertility,
I was like, Can we sneak in aherbicide application somehow
and try to help these guys? Soor
Erin Burns (14:08):
Or Burcucumber, for folks further east, that one was
Yeah, Burcucumber and MorningGlory of like two, especially
vining weeds like so we, we didthis study along with the
University of Kentucky, and theyhad moringloring at their
location, which was great, andwe found really no difference in
and we control across. So we hadthree different herbicide
(14:29):
timings, a pre only program andthen an early post. So v1 v2 put
everything on, and then yourtraditional two pass, and we
found no differences, and we'dcontrol across either the two
short hybrids we looked at arethe tall and then we had two
different seeding rates too. So,I mean, this is just one year's
worth of data, but think allthose kind of, you know, cool,
always a
(14:49):
more weed biology questions canbe asked in this system that we
haven't really played aroundwith, at least in corn for a
long time.
Dan Quinn (14:57):
I was. Going to ask Erin, you know, the big question
that I know a lot of the wheatscientists have asked is about,
you know, a lot of the herbicidelabels have height restrictions.
I kind of have my answer basedon what I've seen. But I'm also
curious, you know, from a wheatscience standpoint, you know,
(15:18):
have you seen any, I guess, redflags or things that stood out
to you that you know this, thisherbicide, you you have to, you
can't go over, say, 13 inchcorn, will, you know, bring in
short stature corn to thatpiece. How does that impact it?
So, just curious, your thoughtson it?
Erin Burns (15:35):
Yeah, we just had a discussion kind of similar that
is either label language goingto change, or just because you
can get over it, should youspray a herbicide that late to
giant weeds? The answers mostlyshould be no for long term
herbicide resistance management.So I think that's something as
the system becomes more adoptedand talking to growers about,
(15:58):
why is that giant weed stillthere, and is your best option,
you know, spraying it, becauseyou now can get, can get in
there, and then are we going tohave to maybe change some labels
or or things along those lines?But that's definitely a question
we get a lot. Or people are, youknow, seeing that opportunity.
(16:18):
But one, should one do it ornot?
Sarah Lancaster (16:20):
So I haven't seen short corn in the feet,
like, growth stages yet, right?Like, I've seen it nearly ready
to harvest, but not early in theseason. How does height at
equivalent growth stagescompare? Like, how is it at when
do you know it's going to beshort corn? Yeah, is it the same
at V6 like, when does that startto show up?
Dan Quinn (16:39):
So from my perspective, it actually you
can't tell the difference untilyou get to about V 10 to V 12.
So, you know, one of our, youknow, I work, you know, Brian
Young, here at Purdue, has donesome short stature corn and
work, and we couldn't actuallytell the difference in the in
the height between the twohybrids, until it got to be
(17:02):
about V 10. So actually, youknow, well past those, those
height limitations. So, yeah,it's, it's interesting that, you
know, we, we kept waiting, okay,when are we going to see it?
When are we going to see it? Butit's not until that corn really
gets into that, you know, reallypeak growth, V 10, V 12, and
then you get into, you know,tassel, you can really see it,
(17:22):
but actually, for a pretty longperiod of time, early in the
season, you you'd be hardpressed to tell the difference
between the Short and the Tallcorn.
Erin Burns (17:31):
Yeah, I'd agree. I think, like, the earliest we had
kind of a stressful year, twoyears ago, like v8 was, like,
you could, like, if you squintit, and maybe really tried hard.
You could pick it out, but itis, it is a lot later, and then
you can start really seeing,like, inner node length and how
it just starts, like, stackingall these leaves, which is just
crazy, because they, they didtell you the amount of biomass
(17:53):
should be the same. And I waslike, How is this physically
possible on a plant that's goingto be so much shorter, and
that's just because those leavesjust keep, keep piling on.
Dan Quinn (18:02):
Yes, the leaf numbers the same. It's just like they
took a plant, just like yousaid, right, and scrunched it
No.
Sarah Lancaster (18:11):
So seems some conversations early on about ear
height on these corn hybrids.Can you guys talk to that a
little bit?
Dan Quinn (18:20):
Yeah, yeah, I can ear height is, I would say, the
biggest challenge for shortstature corn and will be the
biggest barrier to adoption fromharvesting. We found in a lot of
our work that kind of, if youlook at where the ear attaches
(18:41):
to the main stem. That ear shankattached to the main stem, that
needs to be pretty much 24inches and above. Now, if you
look at it, where the ear tipsdown, you know, the ear, you
know, dries down, tips down,needs to be above 1112, inches,
just from some of the equipmentmanufacturers. And you
definitely can get below that,especially if you get dry, like,
(19:04):
like Erin said, we had thatinstance. We had a hybrid that,
you know, we were combining it.And it was a, even with our
small combines, right, anightmare. And I told the, you
know, the seed folks, like,you're never going to get
somebody with a 12 row headthat, you know you're picking up
(19:24):
rocks in your head, or you'regoing to lose them as a customer
for the rest of your life. So Ithink that's the biggest, you
know, barrier to adoption. I wasalso argued that from a breeding
side, that's what they'relooking at the closest they've
been, you know, pretty diligenton all this hybrid we know has
poor ear height. We're going toget rid of it. We have this
(19:46):
hybrid that has better yourheight, but, yeah, that's
something we track in everysingle short stature corn trial
we do, and it tends to be that24 inch break point, but that's
in flat, black ground. And. Andwe have rainfall that's not on
hill slopes and Sandy, you know,areas when it's dry and it's
(20:06):
going to get worse. So, yeah,that's, that's a big concern
with short stature corn, sure,
Erin Burns (20:12):
yeah, and on the weed side. So when we we
measured your height too. So Ishould say this study that I I'm
talking about was conducted herein East Lansing, then also at
Purdue and Ohio State andKentucky, so kind of across a
wide area. And the only time wesaw your hike it reduced was in
our control plot. So zero weedcontrol at all. So really
(20:34):
stressful environments. And thenthose plants did set years like
pretty, pretty darn short, like,we completely missed them with
our, our, our pot harvester. Um,so that would be a really cool
question to see, like, where isthat tipping point? Is it 80%
weed control, 50% you know, ifyou had a really bad year and
everything kind of got out onyou, you know what? What are the
(20:55):
confounding factors that wouldpush that, push that bull kind
of your your target.
Joe Ikley (21:02):
And sometimes you have a foot or two of snow while
you're trying to harvest corn,so you need the ear height to be
a little
Dan Quinn (21:06):
bit higher the Dakotans, yes.
Erin Burns (21:14):
But then you'd see the ears that are on the nice,
fluffy white snow on top. Somaybe somehow go back and
actually props
Dan Quinn (21:20):
ears up a little bit,
Joe Ikley (21:24):
but so so the other kind of stature type question I
had, so V 8v, 10, V 12 soundlike environmental dependent
when we might start seeingdifferences on height and
stature, what about that year,or The leaf width that you
talked about earlier, thatsometimes seems like a little
bit wider ear or watch not ear,wider leaf width. Is that
(21:49):
detected early on? Is that alsokind of a end of Season type of
measurement we're detecting?
Dan Quinn (21:55):
Yeah, we, you know, I likely say that we don't really
know, I would so from our side,we know for sure at tassel right
with the ear leaves and theleaves just below the ear, kind
of the center canopy are wider.But again, that's back to that
(22:15):
additional question. You knowthat would be an interesting
question to see when that breakpoint is. We haven't measured
that from our data point. Youknow the hybrids, like I said
before, they're really hard totell the difference when they
were younger. By the time youget to tassel, you can really
tell the difference. And it'salso the time when I think what
(22:36):
has a big piece with, like theleaf width is like when the
leaves get stacked, like belowthe year and near the year. But,
yeah, I don't, I don't knowthat's a that's a good question.
I'm not sure what when that kindof break point is, but I know at
tassel for sure, you can starttelling the differences, but
that's largely when we startedlooking at it.
Erin Burns (22:58):
Yeah, we tried to measure rate of canopy closure.
So we took fish eye pictures. Sotaking a picture below, up into
the sky to look at what how manyleaves are over that, and we
found really no difference in,like, the overall rate. But
again, I'm sure there, I'm surethere is one. It's just how fine
tuned can you? Can you measurethat? But we were looking at
(23:19):
really, think, big overall,gross differences in canopy
closure, like, you know, withthese seeding rates or
something, delay that so much sothat maybe with like a residual
herbicide, you're losing a weekof of control, or something like
that. So trying to more link it,link it on that side, don't
actually, kind ofmechanistically what's going on.
(23:39):
Yeah.
Sarah Lancaster (23:40):
So did you guys measure, like, light
interception by the canopy oranything like that? Yeah,
Erin Burns (23:44):
we found nothing, which was, I mean, it's one of
those that's like, cool, likeyou go in maybe thinking,
because it's, I mean, it's justlooks so different by the time,
by the time it looks sodifferent. A lot of, lot of
things, at least we'd, sciencewise, have already, already
occurred. So, yeah, we didn't,but once again, just kind of one
year's worth of other stuff. So,
Joe Ikley (24:09):
and that, that's been one of my overall questions, and
we've kind of danced around alittle bit already, but, you
know, the whole canopy closureand we often talk about as corn
being a canopy closure crop, butthink all of us have probably
been inside of a corn canopy,and despite being cut up, and if
you're not wearing long sleeves,it's like, oh, there's some
(24:30):
sunlight getting through. And ifyou're in waterhemp or Palmer
country, oh, look for thatlittle beam of sunlight is going
through. There's a water him,for a Palmer sitting there, not
very tall, but going to seed. Sothat's I guess the hope for my
end is like, well, maybe we cancompletely canopy that thing
over, but maybe my pathologistwill differ on that hope.
Sarah Lancaster (24:57):
So, Erin, is there anything else that we need
to think about? Well, from theOB management side in terms of
implications, you kind of kindof spoiled the question. I guess
you said, yeah, it's the same.
Erin Burns (25:15):
No. I mean, we were truly expecting it to be
different. But I I think that'sjust because, like, when you see
it later, there's so it's so itlooks so different. But when I
put my Weed Science hat on, wethink about weed competition
early in the season. That'sgoing to have your biggest
implication on you. And so far,you know, with these just base
(25:37):
and we looked at like, prettyrobust programs. So they were,
like programs that should, likeour pre program, had like, three
different sites of action withresiduals. So like, you know,
ones where we're actually, ifyou're designing a program
that's going to be robust, theywere really, really the same,
regardless of, you know, whenthey were applied and how long
that is, under one kind offairly optimal year with precept
(25:59):
that came nicely. And the, youknow, residuals did their job
and and stuff like that. So Ithink long term population
dynamics could be cool. Ifthese, you know, if it is shaded
for potentially longer, are wegoing to see differences in seed
viability? Are we going to seedifferences in, maybe, you know,
seed decay? I think there's lotsof cool questions along those
(26:22):
lines that, you know, we justdon't have long enough data set
to look at yet. But thinkherbicide resistance management
lies. Think some of thosebiological things could could
have some benefits long term.
Joe Ikley (26:37):
So curiosity question, and I'm sure you've
already thought about this andare trying to address it, if you
haven't already, how's it changecritical period of weed control,
Erin Burns (26:49):
right? I don't, yeah. I mean, that's, that's
kind of the base I would love todo, like an old school weed
addition removal timing to seeif it does shift it longer. Does
it really matter? You know, Ithink that'd be cool.
Dan Quinn (27:07):
Like that's, you know, with being fairly as new
it is, it is, right? There'sstill a lot of other questions,
I think, you know. And also, ananother interesting piece about
short stature corn, right? Is,you know, we're only in really
the first phase of short staturecorn, which has been developed
(27:28):
through long term breedingefforts. We haven't gotten to
the biotech versions right thatare coming from both Bayer and
corteva. I know Bayer has beenkind of the first to the market
with presion, and that's throughconventional breeding. But then
you bring in this biotech, youknow, the biotech trait, one
(27:49):
that you know both bear andcorteva have, that are that's
still probably two to threeyears out, that, you know,
everything I've seen from thatside, I haven't seen any of
them, but I've, you know, youknow, had discussions with them
and reviewed some research fromthem that you know, it actually
that, you know, short stature,the conventionally bred short
(28:10):
stature corn, the reducedstature is realized largely
below the ear, where the innernodes are stacked below the ear.
The biotech version is, youknow, supposedly, that it's more
spaced evenly throughout theplant, that the inner node
reduction is, the inner nodespacing reduction is, is more
evenly spaced, which then youknow, in terms of ear height
(28:31):
placement and stuff like that,it could be a little bit more
consistent, little bit higher Ithink, you know, the way they
can breed that biotech trade andsome of the traits, I think some
of the genetics will get better.Will get better. But again,
that's, you know, then you bringin that one and, okay, what are
the questions we need to look atthat one too. So we're still at
really the, really the beginningof of a lot of this.
Sarah Lancaster (28:57):
So I guess along those lines, we should
probably just talk a little bitabout, like, availability,
what's available, where, whatkinds of hybrids?
Dan Quinn (29:08):
Yeah, it's, it's pretty limited availability, at
least from my, my side, youknow, I don't know, like, you
know, from Bayer side, you know,I think it was pretty limited
commercial release in 2024 theythey're, they're pretty limited
on maturities that they have, ona seed that they have, you know,
they kind of have their specificfarmers that they work with. You
(29:30):
know, it's largely started inthe high state. So Indiana,
Illinois and Iowa, has been kindof that, that range those, you
know, 116 day to 108 day hybridsis kind of there, where they've
they've been a lot of 110 112day hybrids. So it's been pretty
limited. I think the they hadeliminated commercial release in
2024 expect that to expand here.But again, a lot of it's still
(29:55):
kind of known, you know, interms of, you know, where
they're at with certainmaturities and where they plan
to go. So, you know, there's,there's people starting to look
at it from the silent side aswell, in terms of digestibility
and quality residue. But I thinkit's just, it'll just take some
time they kind of, you know,started with, you know, the big
(30:15):
market share of the I states,and then kind of starting to
move it, move it from there. Andthen, you know, the biotech
trait, you know, that's still234, years down the line.
Corteva, it was moved moretowards, they're just doing the
biotech trait. So they, they'vekind of held off on, on, you
know, they've, they're kind ofhad their approach where, you
(30:35):
know, hey, we're going to wait,make sure we got some here with
the biotech trait, and then gofrom there. So haven't been able
to work with any of that yet. Sothat's still coming from both
the company. So that's, youknow, it's still pretty limited.
But I, you know, you'd expect itto to slowly get get more and
more, like across a lot of, youknow, wider area,
Erin Burns (31:00):
yeah, because they considered Michigan kind of the
North location for this. And Igrew up in Minnesota and lived
in North Dakota for a long time,so I would never consider
Michigan that that far north.When I think about my own
personal experiences, I think,yeah, that's a really good, good
point on just maturities andavailability are playing a huge
(31:21):
role.
Dan Quinn (31:22):
Yeah, they don't. I don't think they have any, you
know, 9698 day, or even the lasthybrids for the sort of statute
form, but I'm sure they willeventually. But yeah,
Joe Ikley (31:34):
my my rule of thumb is when we hear about something,
add two years that gets us intoour market,
Erin Burns (31:44):
but you can benefit from all of our trial and error,
so you'll just look totallyawesome by the time it makes it
there,
Joe Ikley (31:50):
exactly. I mean, from an agronomic perspective, that's
amazing, but we have, we havethe same weeds and the same
issues. So just for for thisdiscussion, yeah, that's great
for other discussions, like, I'dlike to have that a little bit
Sarah Lancaster (32:03):
I think being kind of, I mean, I grew up in
sooner.
kind of the fringe acre for theCorn Belt, right? I grew up in
Missouri. Now I'm in Kansas, andit's just, I think we have a lot
more misses in our growingenvironments, especially as we
go further west. So like, Erin,you were talking about how
(32:25):
perfectly the rainfall was timedand how all the priests got
activated. And so now I'm tryingto put this in the field, in,
you know, dry land corn inOakley, Kansas. And I'm like,
yeah, that doesn't happen. Andso I'm just wondering, like, how
do you have any if you had acrystal ball, like, how would
you think some of these weedmanagement issues would change
(32:48):
as we go into maybe less areasthat have less yield potential
for the corn crop? Does thatmake sense?
Erin Burns (32:56):
Yeah. I mean, I think there's less, let's Yeah,
yield potential, or really, whenwe're I mean, the goal was with
the putting on residuals in apost pass. So I think, thinking
about how that might work inthose areas, I always think
about, you know, we still haverain then, so is it worth it? Or
that may probably needs to beanother, another treatment is,
(33:17):
if you don't have a residual inthe post, like, what? What what
is that going to do? And that'ssomething we haven't, you know,
really looked at, because Iguess we have a gift of being
able to to rely on those. Somaybe some of the benefits
wouldn't be seen as fast, ormaybe, maybe they would. I don't
That's a great question. I justwonder about
Sarah Lancaster (33:39):
the time to canopy closure, right? Kind of
how all that would play playingbecause it have to be a little
slower, I would think,
Erin Burns (33:49):
yeah, yeah, that's what's cool, though. I mean,
it's cool to have a conversationlike this about weed control and
corn, because for a while it'sbeen pretty, not as flexible,
Sarah Lancaster (34:02):
yeah, not a lot of variety. So what other
questions did you have today?Joe?
Joe Ikley (34:12):
No, they hit some of the key ones for me, but
potential changes herbicidelabels and and the old the
underlying thing we didn't quiteaddress is one of my perennial
arguments of it should always becrop stage, not height. But I
realize there's some reasons whyheight is on the labels, but
(34:32):
we're in greenhouse season now,so it's very top, in my mind,
when discussed with new graduatestudents of wind spray stuff,
when you can artificiallyinflate the height of weeds or
plants in the greenhouse, butthat's a different discussion
for a different day, maybe. Butso we kind of covered that. And
as far as weed control isconcerned, that early season
(34:53):
growth seems similar, at leastas far as we know so far so. I'm
good for weed control. Erin Dan,does brown silk still occur at
the same time? Because that'swhen we get the late season weed
control.
Dan Quinn (35:13):
Yeah, a lot of you know from the agronomic side,
outside of you know, probablythe seeding rate, not much is
different in terms of growthsafe timing, and, you know, we
haven't, we're still pretty newon this, you know, the disease
side, you know, you know, we dida little bit with fungicide. It
seemed pretty similar. You know,the nutrient nitrogen side,
(35:37):
pretty similar. We did a hugedefoliation undertaking, you
know, and, you know,reevaluating that versus short
stature, or, you know, normalfull stature corn. And it didn't
differ, right? We didn't haveany, you know, interactions
between foliation timing ordefoliation percentage. So, you
(35:57):
know, outside of, probably thethe seating rate piece, a lot of
it, it's, you know, seems to bepretty similar in how it
behaves, how it works, how itoperates, how it responds to
some of the stresses. So, butalso it's, it's also something
that we don't have a lot of dataon, too. So that's something
that we just over time, we'll,we'll start to tease a lot of
(36:20):
these out, but we just haven'tgotten there
Sarah Lancaster (36:22):
yet. Corn stand. And that reminded me You
mentioned narrower row spacing.So what row spacings Have you
looked at?
Dan Quinn (36:30):
We just did 20 inch rows, 20s farmers and pockets
here and there. Across Indianawith with 20 inch rows. So we
just did 20 inch rows, but wewent up to 50,000 and still
we're seeing that yieldincrease. Now bring, I don't, I
always tell the farmers over butI don't know what the seed is
(36:51):
going to cost, right? So, like,you know that economical, but,
well, it was interesting to seethat potential. So you think
about like Erin, right inMichigan, you know, there's some
20 twos with the sugar beetguys. Yeah, that's
Erin Burns (37:03):
what I was going to add. I know Manny saying, who's
our agronomist working on cornhere? Looked at fifteens and 20
twos, and we were all on 30s,because that's kind of our
typical weed control one. But
Dan Quinn (37:17):
yeah, it's, it was pretty impressive in how it
could respond and tolerate thenarrow rows and the high I mean
in terms of a dense junglecanopy, right? 20 inch rows at
50,000 is about as dense as itgets. But everything I've heard
like from breeding efforts, Imean, they kind of just, they
want to keep it in 30 inch rows.That's where they do the
(37:39):
breeding in 30 inch rows. But,you know, we've, we've seen some
of the potential until theintros.
Sarah Lancaster (37:47):
Did I did we forget to ask? Anything else,
Dan or Erin, is there somethingyou're dying to tell us about
short stature corn that I forgotto ask?
Erin Burns (37:56):
I'm looking at my take home points. And then it
was kind of hit it out. Yeah, I
Dan Quinn (38:01):
think we hit all the main points and yeah, I would
say there's still a lot ofunanswered questions. That's why
we do it right? That's why we dothe research. So we'll figure it
out as it goes
Sarah Lancaster (38:16):
well. Thank you, Dan and Erin for talking
with us today. Do you guys haveany social media websites that
you'd like to share with thelisteners
Dan Quinn (38:26):
you want to go first? Yeah, go ahead, Erin
Erin Burns (38:31):
I'm old school. Um, we don't have a whole heck of a
lot, but if you Google MSUweeds, you'll get to our Weed
Science website, and that'swhere we put everything. So all
of our trial results, pictures,talks we give during the winter,
and students posters and thingslike that. So just Google MSU
leads, and you'll see you'll seeit.
Dan Quinn (38:54):
Yeah, my so we have a website, so you can google my
name at Purdue and or thekernel, right? K, E, R, N, E, L,
dot. Info. Also, that link willget there. There's also a longer
Purdue link that'll that'll getyou there. We post try to get
more and more of our, you know,research books, and, you know,
(39:17):
research trials on there. Andthen I have Twitter x, or
whatever it's called nowadays,Purdue corn is my handle on
there. So we try to think, weshare, share a little bit, bits
and pieces in terms of whatwe're seeing out there. And
(39:37):
then, you know, I'll plug ourpodcast to we have Purdue crop
chat with Sean Castile atPurdue, him and myself have a
podcast. So if you're curiousabout what's going on in
Indiana, we do that more so inthe growing season as well. But
those are the main plugs that wehave for where you can find
(39:58):
stuff from us. Yeah,
Sarah Lancaster (40:01):
excellent. Well, thanks again for joining
us, Dan and Erin, and as always,thanks to the folks who listen.
We will see you all again nexttime.
Thanks for listening to the waragainst weeds podcast. We
appreciate support from thenorth central Integrated Pest
(40:23):
Management Center and thecollaboration with the Crop
Protection Network. At cropprotection network.org you can
find this podcast, otherpodcasts, and a variety of other
pest management resources.
Sarah, welcome back to the war against weeds
(00:08):
podcast. This is SarahLancaster, extension weed
management specialist at KansasState University. I am here this
afternoon with the good doctor.Joseph Ikley, how are you, Joe?
Joe Ikley (00:19):
I'm good. The groundhog said something about
winter yesterday, and I'm hereto say he's a liar. It'll be
longer than whatever heproclaimed.
Sarah Lancaster (00:29):
Yeah but that's because you live in the tundra.
All right. So the real topic athand today, besides a rodent
from Pennsylvania, is to talkabout short corn, and to talk
about short corn we have withus. Erin Burns Howdy, Erin!
Erin Burns (00:49):
hi everyone. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Lancaster (00:52):
And Dan Quinn,
Dan Quinn (00:54):
hello. Thanks for having me as well.
Sarah Lancaster (00:57):
This is going to be a great chat. And I think
it's something that is, isprobably in the mind of folks,
as we you know, just look at atNew techs that are coming for
the future. So Dan, let's startwith you. Do you want to tell
the audience a little bit aboutwhat you do and where you're
from?
Dan Quinn (01:13):
Yeah. So I'm assistant professor of agronomy,
and also the extension cornagronomist for Purdue
University. Been at Purdueactually be four years this
spring. But by way of Michigan,I've been, you know, I grew up
in Michigan. I actually rememberwhen Erin was hired, because I
was in grad school up there,Michigan State. Two degrees at
(01:37):
Michigan State and plant soils.Got my PhD in corn management
and plant soil science down atKentucky, and then landed in
Purdue. So I worked above thestate, worked below the state,
and then now we're in the middleof the state. So, but my I
always say my role is all thingsand everything corn. So if it
(01:58):
has to do with corn, I'm usuallyinvolved with it some way or
somehow.
Sarah Lancaster (02:02):
Yeah, that's awesome. Erin. How about you?
Erin Burns (02:07):
Hi, I'm Erin Burns, and you have a small world.
We'll let you be a boilermakerfor now, Dan, but Sparty at
heart. I'm at Michigan StateUniversity. I'm a weed
scientist, or Yeah, extensionspecialist in Weed Science,
started in the summer of 2017 soit's been a few years now, and I
mostly focused on weed controland corn forages and potatoes.
(02:29):
So dabbled by feet in the shortcorn world, and excited to hear
more about your perspectives.
Sarah Lancaster (02:36):
So let's kind of go back to the beginning
here. Dan, I think this is onethat maybe you could take the
lead on, yeah. What is shortcorn?
Dan Quinn (02:47):
Yeah? So, you know, you know, literally, it's, it's,
it's shorter corn, right? Soit's really been developed as a,
you know, through breedingprocesses for a long period of
time. So they often refer to itas short stature. You know, a
lot of the companies have, Iappreciate their names, you
know, some are, I think smart,smart corn, and, you know,
(03:09):
reduced stature corn, but yeah,it's just really a shorter
plant. Is where it comes in. Youknow, short corn is not new. It
actually came about. I forget,you know, how many years ago I
know Stein seed, and, you know,there was, was kind of an effort
in it, you know, quite a fewyears ago didn't really pan out.
(03:32):
They had a lot of troubles withit. And then now they've, I
think, with breedingtechnologies today, and the way
they can breed, and betterbreeding technologies, I think
it, you know, they've kind ofreinvigorated that over a period
of time. But, yeah, it's, it'sreally just, you know, corn
hybrid, very similar genetics inthat corn hybrid, but just a
reduced stature on that. Youknow, across our trials, it's
(03:56):
usually about two feet shorteron average, and that can vary
based on the hybrids, but, but,you know, when we talk short
corn, it's, it's literally justa shorter plant, yeah,
Erin Burns (04:07):
so what do you call traditional stature corn? That's
our issue is, what do we wealways have problems. Now we
call it short corn. That makessense. So is it tall corn, or is
there like a going rate to whatwe should be calling our
traditional or,
Dan Quinn (04:22):
yes, full stature. That's, that's the same question
I get. You know, well, this istall corn. Well, what? How do
you know it's tall, right?What's the definition of tall
corn, right? So, you know,
Sarah Lancaster (04:36):
yeah, I'm having some memories of walking
breeding plots the summer Iinterned for Pioneer and just
seeing, right? Even just withinbreeding lines, there's
difference between lines,
Dan Quinn (04:50):
yeah, because even if you go back to, like, open
pollinated varieties of corn andor even silage varieties of
corn, right, they're they'remuch bigger and much taller. I.
And then even comparing, youknow, the typical, your normal
corn hybrids, to them, they'reshorter. And then now we're
going going even shorter. So Iwas kind of, you know, related a
(05:10):
little bit to wheat, you know,we kind of went, went through
this, you know, in terms ofshortening its stature and the
difference in heights of thevariety. So they're starting to
take it to corn a little bit. So
Sarah Lancaster (05:22):
should we talk through, like, the advantages
and maybe disadvantages of thatreduce height?
Dan Quinn (05:29):
Yeah, I can, you know, talk on my side, just
from, you know, agronomic. Ithink, you know, probably the
biggest piece, and that you'llhear is, is wind, wind
tolerance. You know, the youlook at, you know, derecho
issues out in Iowa and Illinois.We, we actually had a short corn
trial this year in southernIndiana that that got hit by the
(05:51):
hurricane remnants out ofFlorida. And I have a my grad
student went out, you know,farmer, farm manager calls so
you got down corn. It's like,well, let's, let's fly it. Let's
get a UAV up there. And he couldpinpoint every single plot he
had with the tall corn versusthe short corn to the line, the
tall corn was down and the shortrun was still standing. So I
(06:15):
think that's a really big pieceof it, you know, the other piece
of it from, you know, my side isaccess to get over, get over the
crop, right? You think aboutfungicides. You think about late
season nitrogen applications aswell. Corn is a pain to get over
top of. It's a pain to spray attassel when you're trying to get
those fungicides. You also havethat pain if you're relying on
(06:39):
airplanes or helicopters. Youknow, getting it scheduled and
getting it on, getting thecoverage is a pain. So a lot of
the farmers I work with and talkto about it, I would say their
biggest interest is the access,you know, just hey, I can take
my John Deer or case sprayerthat I have and and spray my
corn with fungicide. I don'thave to have a haggie come in
(07:00):
that's hired, or a plane or someof these things. So I think
that's, you know, those are twoof the biggest, you know,
reasons that that I've seenwhere the short stature corn
comes in.
Sarah Lancaster (07:14):
So this is a little maybe more academic, but
what does it do for things likenutrient nitrogen, use
efficiency, things like that.Yeah,
Dan Quinn (07:25):
you know, we're, we're still pretty great, you
know, pretty new in that area,but we've been doing quite a few
nutrient management trials withit, and we're going to keep
expanding on that. From thenitrogen side, everything that
we have seen has been thenitrogen use is very similar. We
haven't seen any indicationsthat you need more or less
(07:46):
nitrogen. With the corn, thenitrogen uptake seems to be
pretty similar. We have someindications that, you know, one
thing we've seen with corn, justin general, with breeding over
time, is that the plants take upnitrogen a little bit later, and
we're starting we're seeing thateven more so with the short
stature corn. So you thinkabout, you know, side dress or
(08:09):
in season nitrogen applications,there may be more of a play
there, because it uses and takesup nitrogen a little bit later
in the plant. But again, that wewe don't really know yet,
because we're still really earlyon testing a lot of these
agronomic questions. We've kindof just started with, Hey, let's
look at nitrogen rates. We haveno indication from our data that
(08:32):
optimum end rates need to changewith with the short Stature
corn, but we have seen kind ofdifferences in the timing of an
uptake and that may play intolater season and application. So
we have a study this year thatwe're looking at an application
timing. So we're and nitrogen isreally the only nutrient we've
really dove into yet with withthis short stature corn too. So
(08:55):
you think about phosphorus,potassium, sulfur, all these
things we we just haven't,haven't gotten that far yet. But
obviously job security, I guess,with with looking at every time,
you know, from an agronomic sideto like, like mine, every time
you get this pretty dramaticchange, and say, a corn hybrid,
it's like, well, I guess we cango back and look at these. You
(09:19):
know, I would say simplequestions, right? Okay, what are
planning day? What's Eatingrate, what's nitrogen rate, you
know, we did some defoliationtrials, you know. So there's a
lot of things we can startlooking at almost again with
this hybrid as compared to theother hybrids.
Sarah Lancaster (09:38):
And so, I guess Erin, one of those things to
look at again, is weedmanagement concerns, right,
right?
Erin Burns (09:45):
And I think short, corn has an interesting
implication. Because I was goingto ask you, Dan, about if you've
done work with seeding rates. Sowe haven't, you know, I think
about like playing around withseeding rates in soybean that
has a really large implicationon weed competition, because we.
Think about weeds. They, youknow, complete for water,
nutrients and light and light'sa huge one, and one that I think
(10:06):
now we can start thinking abouta little bit more about pros and
cons of having shorter staturedcorn, but also being able to
increase the the seeding rate.So if you're able to increase
seeding rates of corn, which wehaven't, it's kind of one of
been one of those principles,quote, unquote, that's been
devised by someone, however longago, and at least at the trials
(10:28):
we've looked at really beingable to push those seeding
rates. And would that have longterm benefits for weed
competition, you know, on thoseends. So Dan, I don't know what
seeding rates Have you guyslooked at? Yeah,
Dan Quinn (10:43):
we've, we've gone so probably bulk of our work has
been seed rates. We've kind oflaying it on one that the short
Stature actually probably needsto be at a higher seeding rate
if you're going to manage it,just in terms of yield levels.
We've, we've found in a lot ofour trials, that, on average,
needs to be about 20% higher,which, you know, average for
(11:05):
tall corn for us, you knowballpark lot of times, 32,000 is
a ballpark number for a lot ofour farmers. Short stature corn,
you probably need to be 3638,000 now that also, we've seen
that It tolerates the highseeding rates really well. And
then we've also looked at narrowrows. So we bring in that factor
(11:26):
narrow rows, it does really wellin narrow rows. And then you
bring in narrow rows by seedingrates. We push it up to 50,000
and the yield actually keepsgoing up. So where other hybrids
we haven't seen that, or even in30 inch rows, we haven't seen
that. I think, you know, we'vewe're still trying to understand
(11:49):
it. But I think there ispotential that the seed rate,
one maybe needs to be higher,but also can be higher and it
can tolerate it better. Anotherthing, I think, with what weed
control, aspect that we foundwith short stature corn is the
leaf area. So the, you know, youalways think, well, the corn
plants shorter, so the biomassis lower. And it's actually not
(12:10):
the case. A lot of times thebiomass is the same. It just
kind of allocates as biomass alittle bit differently. So we've
seen like the leaves be wider,right? So you think about
shading out in terms of weedcontrol, but we're also
concerned on the disease side,right, that impact air flow, but
a lot of times the leaves arewider. So I think there's, you
(12:34):
know, potential on the weedside, maybe where you could have
the higher pops and have thewider leaves, where it really
shades out. One of the those,those weeds, I think,
Erin Burns (12:47):
when I think about weeds, you know, with weeds with
extended emergence patterns,such as, you know, I'm in
Michigan, we have a lot of waterhemp that's kind of our, our
new, more troublesome weed thathas the ability to germinate
whenever it decides it wants toI can think about maybe Sarah
and Joe. What are your what?What weeds Do you think in your
areas with this maybe have somebenefits on
Joe Ikley (13:10):
water? Yeah, we, we have plenty of weeds, but the
the extended emergence patternwhen they're going to do what
they want to do is waterhemp. Wehave plenty of Kochia problems,
but that's more of an earlyseason thing, not as big of a
deal in corn.
Sarah Lancaster (13:28):
Yeah. I mean, Palmer is my number one weed
across the state, and everythingthat we have to deal with. But I
guess the one that keeps comingto my mind is I've got some
farmers, really, all over theeastern half of the state that
have been asking questions aboutHophornbeam copperleaf because
it specifically comes up laterin the season, and so it's hard
(13:51):
to get a herbicide applicationthat it might work on. So as Dan
was thinking about or talkingabout later nitrogen fertility,
I was like, Can we sneak in aherbicide application somehow
and try to help these guys? Soor
Erin Burns (14:08):
Or Burcucumber, for folks further east, that one was
Yeah, Burcucumber and MorningGlory of like two, especially
vining weeds like so we, we didthis study along with the
University of Kentucky, and theyhad moringloring at their
location, which was great, andwe found really no difference in
and we control across. So we hadthree different herbicide
(14:29):
timings, a pre only program andthen an early post. So v1 v2 put
everything on, and then yourtraditional two pass, and we
found no differences, and we'dcontrol across either the two
short hybrids we looked at arethe tall and then we had two
different seeding rates too. So,I mean, this is just one year's
worth of data, but think allthose kind of, you know, cool,
always a
(14:49):
more weed biology questions canbe asked in this system that we
haven't really played aroundwith, at least in corn for a
long time.
Dan Quinn (14:57):
I was. Going to ask Erin, you know, the big question
that I know a lot of the wheatscientists have asked is about,
you know, a lot of the herbicidelabels have height restrictions.
I kind of have my answer basedon what I've seen. But I'm also
curious, you know, from a wheatscience standpoint, you know,
(15:18):
have you seen any, I guess, redflags or things that stood out
to you that you know this, thisherbicide, you you have to, you
can't go over, say, 13 inchcorn, will, you know, bring in
short stature corn to thatpiece. How does that impact it?
So, just curious, your thoughtson it?
Erin Burns (15:35):
Yeah, we just had a discussion kind of similar that
is either label language goingto change, or just because you
can get over it, should youspray a herbicide that late to
giant weeds? The answers mostlyshould be no for long term
herbicide resistance management.So I think that's something as
the system becomes more adoptedand talking to growers about,
(15:58):
why is that giant weed stillthere, and is your best option,
you know, spraying it, becauseyou now can get, can get in
there, and then are we going tohave to maybe change some labels
or or things along those lines?But that's definitely a question
we get a lot. Or people are, youknow, seeing that opportunity.
(16:18):
But one, should one do it ornot?
Sarah Lancaster (16:20):
So I haven't seen short corn in the feet,
like, growth stages yet, right?Like, I've seen it nearly ready
to harvest, but not early in theseason. How does height at
equivalent growth stagescompare? Like, how is it at when
do you know it's going to beshort corn? Yeah, is it the same
at V6 like, when does that startto show up?
Dan Quinn (16:39):
So from my perspective, it actually you
can't tell the difference untilyou get to about V 10 to V 12.
So, you know, one of our, youknow, I work, you know, Brian
Young, here at Purdue, has donesome short stature corn and
work, and we couldn't actuallytell the difference in the in
the height between the twohybrids, until it got to be
(17:02):
about V 10. So actually, youknow, well past those, those
height limitations. So, yeah,it's, it's interesting that, you
know, we, we kept waiting, okay,when are we going to see it?
When are we going to see it? Butit's not until that corn really
gets into that, you know, reallypeak growth, V 10, V 12, and
then you get into, you know,tassel, you can really see it,
(17:22):
but actually, for a pretty longperiod of time, early in the
season, you you'd be hardpressed to tell the difference
between the Short and the Tallcorn.
Erin Burns (17:31):
Yeah, I'd agree. I think, like, the earliest we had
kind of a stressful year, twoyears ago, like v8 was, like,
you could, like, if you squintit, and maybe really tried hard.
You could pick it out, but itis, it is a lot later, and then
you can start really seeing,like, inner node length and how
it just starts, like, stackingall these leaves, which is just
crazy, because they, they didtell you the amount of biomass
(17:53):
should be the same. And I waslike, How is this physically
possible on a plant that's goingto be so much shorter, and
that's just because those leavesjust keep, keep piling on.
Dan Quinn (18:02):
Yes, the leaf numbers the same. It's just like they
took a plant, just like yousaid, right, and scrunched it
No.
Sarah Lancaster (18:11):
So seems some conversations early on about ear
height on these corn hybrids.Can you guys talk to that a
little bit?
Dan Quinn (18:20):
Yeah, yeah, I can ear height is, I would say, the
biggest challenge for shortstature corn and will be the
biggest barrier to adoption fromharvesting. We found in a lot of
our work that kind of, if youlook at where the ear attaches
(18:41):
to the main stem. That ear shankattached to the main stem, that
needs to be pretty much 24inches and above. Now, if you
look at it, where the ear tipsdown, you know, the ear, you
know, dries down, tips down,needs to be above 1112, inches,
just from some of the equipmentmanufacturers. And you
definitely can get below that,especially if you get dry, like,
(19:04):
like Erin said, we had thatinstance. We had a hybrid that,
you know, we were combining it.And it was a, even with our
small combines, right, anightmare. And I told the, you
know, the seed folks, like,you're never going to get
somebody with a 12 row headthat, you know you're picking up
(19:24):
rocks in your head, or you'regoing to lose them as a customer
for the rest of your life. So Ithink that's the biggest, you
know, barrier to adoption. I wasalso argued that from a breeding
side, that's what they'relooking at the closest they've
been, you know, pretty diligenton all this hybrid we know has
poor ear height. We're going toget rid of it. We have this
(19:46):
hybrid that has better yourheight, but, yeah, that's
something we track in everysingle short stature corn trial
we do, and it tends to be that24 inch break point, but that's
in flat, black ground. And. Andwe have rainfall that's not on
hill slopes and Sandy, you know,areas when it's dry and it's
(20:06):
going to get worse. So, yeah,that's, that's a big concern
with short stature corn, sure,
Erin Burns (20:12):
yeah, and on the weed side. So when we we
measured your height too. So Ishould say this study that I I'm
talking about was conducted herein East Lansing, then also at
Purdue and Ohio State andKentucky, so kind of across a
wide area. And the only time wesaw your hike it reduced was in
our control plot. So zero weedcontrol at all. So really
(20:34):
stressful environments. And thenthose plants did set years like
pretty, pretty darn short, like,we completely missed them with
our, our, our pot harvester. Um,so that would be a really cool
question to see, like, where isthat tipping point? Is it 80%
weed control, 50% you know, ifyou had a really bad year and
everything kind of got out onyou, you know what? What are the
(20:55):
confounding factors that wouldpush that, push that bull kind
of your your target.
Joe Ikley (21:02):
And sometimes you have a foot or two of snow while
you're trying to harvest corn,so you need the ear height to be
a little
Dan Quinn (21:06):
bit higher the Dakotans, yes.
Erin Burns (21:14):
But then you'd see the ears that are on the nice,
fluffy white snow on top. Somaybe somehow go back and
actually props
Dan Quinn (21:20):
ears up a little bit,
Joe Ikley (21:24):
but so so the other kind of stature type question I
had, so V 8v, 10, V 12 soundlike environmental dependent
when we might start seeingdifferences on height and
stature, what about that year,or The leaf width that you
talked about earlier, thatsometimes seems like a little
bit wider ear or watch not ear,wider leaf width. Is that
(21:49):
detected early on? Is that alsokind of a end of Season type of
measurement we're detecting?
Dan Quinn (21:55):
Yeah, we, you know, I likely say that we don't really
know, I would so from our side,we know for sure at tassel right
with the ear leaves and theleaves just below the ear, kind
of the center canopy are wider.But again, that's back to that
(22:15):
additional question. You knowthat would be an interesting
question to see when that breakpoint is. We haven't measured
that from our data point. Youknow the hybrids, like I said
before, they're really hard totell the difference when they
were younger. By the time youget to tassel, you can really
tell the difference. And it'salso the time when I think what
(22:36):
has a big piece with, like theleaf width is like when the
leaves get stacked, like belowthe year and near the year. But,
yeah, I don't, I don't knowthat's a that's a good question.
I'm not sure what when that kindof break point is, but I know at
tassel for sure, you can starttelling the differences, but
that's largely when we startedlooking at it.
Erin Burns (22:58):
Yeah, we tried to measure rate of canopy closure.
So we took fish eye pictures. Sotaking a picture below, up into
the sky to look at what how manyleaves are over that, and we
found really no difference in,like, the overall rate. But
again, I'm sure there, I'm surethere is one. It's just how fine
tuned can you? Can you measurethat? But we were looking at
(23:19):
really, think, big overall,gross differences in canopy
closure, like, you know, withthese seeding rates or
something, delay that so much sothat maybe with like a residual
herbicide, you're losing a weekof of control, or something like
that. So trying to more link it,link it on that side, don't
actually, kind ofmechanistically what's going on.
(23:39):
Yeah.
Sarah Lancaster (23:40):
So did you guys measure, like, light
interception by the canopy oranything like that? Yeah,
Erin Burns (23:44):
we found nothing, which was, I mean, it's one of
those that's like, cool, likeyou go in maybe thinking,
because it's, I mean, it's justlooks so different by the time,
by the time it looks sodifferent. A lot of, lot of
things, at least we'd, sciencewise, have already, already
occurred. So, yeah, we didn't,but once again, just kind of one
year's worth of other stuff. So,
Joe Ikley (24:09):
and that, that's been one of my overall questions, and
we've kind of danced around alittle bit already, but, you
know, the whole canopy closureand we often talk about as corn
being a canopy closure crop, butthink all of us have probably
been inside of a corn canopy,and despite being cut up, and if
you're not wearing long sleeves,it's like, oh, there's some
(24:30):
sunlight getting through. And ifyou're in waterhemp or Palmer
country, oh, look for thatlittle beam of sunlight is going
through. There's a water him,for a Palmer sitting there, not
very tall, but going to seed. Sothat's I guess the hope for my
end is like, well, maybe we cancompletely canopy that thing
over, but maybe my pathologistwill differ on that hope.
Sarah Lancaster (24:57):
So, Erin, is there anything else that we need
to think about? Well, from theOB management side in terms of
implications, you kind of kindof spoiled the question. I guess
you said, yeah, it's the same.
Erin Burns (25:15):
No. I mean, we were truly expecting it to be
different. But I I think that'sjust because, like, when you see
it later, there's so it's so itlooks so different. But when I
put my Weed Science hat on, wethink about weed competition
early in the season. That'sgoing to have your biggest
implication on you. And so far,you know, with these just base
(25:37):
and we looked at like, prettyrobust programs. So they were,
like programs that should, likeour pre program, had like, three
different sites of action withresiduals. So like, you know,
ones where we're actually, ifyou're designing a program
that's going to be robust, theywere really, really the same,
regardless of, you know, whenthey were applied and how long
that is, under one kind offairly optimal year with precept
(25:59):
that came nicely. And the, youknow, residuals did their job
and and stuff like that. So Ithink long term population
dynamics could be cool. Ifthese, you know, if it is shaded
for potentially longer, are wegoing to see differences in seed
viability? Are we going to seedifferences in, maybe, you know,
seed decay? I think there's lotsof cool questions along those
(26:22):
lines that, you know, we justdon't have long enough data set
to look at yet. But thinkherbicide resistance management
lies. Think some of thosebiological things could could
have some benefits long term.
Joe Ikley (26:37):
So curiosity question, and I'm sure you've
already thought about this andare trying to address it, if you
haven't already, how's it changecritical period of weed control,
Erin Burns (26:49):
right? I don't, yeah. I mean, that's, that's
kind of the base I would love todo, like an old school weed
addition removal timing to seeif it does shift it longer. Does
it really matter? You know, Ithink that'd be cool.
Dan Quinn (27:07):
Like that's, you know, with being fairly as new
it is, it is, right? There'sstill a lot of other questions,
I think, you know. And also, ananother interesting piece about
short stature corn, right? Is,you know, we're only in really
the first phase of short staturecorn, which has been developed
(27:28):
through long term breedingefforts. We haven't gotten to
the biotech versions right thatare coming from both Bayer and
corteva. I know Bayer has beenkind of the first to the market
with presion, and that's throughconventional breeding. But then
you bring in this biotech, youknow, the biotech trait, one
(27:49):
that you know both bear andcorteva have, that are that's
still probably two to threeyears out, that, you know,
everything I've seen from thatside, I haven't seen any of
them, but I've, you know, youknow, had discussions with them
and reviewed some research fromthem that you know, it actually
that, you know, short stature,the conventionally bred short
(28:10):
stature corn, the reducedstature is realized largely
below the ear, where the innernodes are stacked below the ear.
The biotech version is, youknow, supposedly, that it's more
spaced evenly throughout theplant, that the inner node
reduction is, the inner nodespacing reduction is, is more
evenly spaced, which then youknow, in terms of ear height
(28:31):
placement and stuff like that,it could be a little bit more
consistent, little bit higher Ithink, you know, the way they
can breed that biotech trade andsome of the traits, I think some
of the genetics will get better.Will get better. But again,
that's, you know, then you bringin that one and, okay, what are
the questions we need to look atthat one too. So we're still at
really the, really the beginningof of a lot of this.
Sarah Lancaster (28:57):
So I guess along those lines, we should
probably just talk a little bitabout, like, availability,
what's available, where, whatkinds of hybrids?
Dan Quinn (29:08):
Yeah, it's, it's pretty limited availability, at
least from my, my side, youknow, I don't know, like, you
know, from Bayer side, you know,I think it was pretty limited
commercial release in 2024 theythey're, they're pretty limited
on maturities that they have, ona seed that they have, you know,
they kind of have their specificfarmers that they work with. You
(29:30):
know, it's largely started inthe high state. So Indiana,
Illinois and Iowa, has been kindof that, that range those, you
know, 116 day to 108 day hybridsis kind of there, where they've
they've been a lot of 110 112day hybrids. So it's been pretty
limited. I think the they hadeliminated commercial release in
2024 expect that to expand here.But again, a lot of it's still
(29:55):
kind of known, you know, interms of, you know, where
they're at with certainmaturities and where they plan
to go. So, you know, there's,there's people starting to look
at it from the silent side aswell, in terms of digestibility
and quality residue. But I thinkit's just, it'll just take some
time they kind of, you know,started with, you know, the big
(30:15):
market share of the I states,and then kind of starting to
move it, move it from there. Andthen, you know, the biotech
trait, you know, that's still234, years down the line.
Corteva, it was moved moretowards, they're just doing the
biotech trait. So they, they'vekind of held off on, on, you
know, they've, they're kind ofhad their approach where, you
(30:35):
know, hey, we're going to wait,make sure we got some here with
the biotech trait, and then gofrom there. So haven't been able
to work with any of that yet. Sothat's still coming from both
the company. So that's, youknow, it's still pretty limited.
But I, you know, you'd expect itto to slowly get get more and
more, like across a lot of, youknow, wider area,
Erin Burns (31:00):
yeah, because they considered Michigan kind of the
North location for this. And Igrew up in Minnesota and lived
in North Dakota for a long time,so I would never consider
Michigan that that far north.When I think about my own
personal experiences, I think,yeah, that's a really good, good
point on just maturities andavailability are playing a huge
(31:21):
role.
Dan Quinn (31:22):
Yeah, they don't. I don't think they have any, you
know, 9698 day, or even the lasthybrids for the sort of statute
form, but I'm sure they willeventually. But yeah,
Joe Ikley (31:34):
my my rule of thumb is when we hear about something,
add two years that gets us intoour market,
Erin Burns (31:44):
but you can benefit from all of our trial and error,
so you'll just look totallyawesome by the time it makes it
there,
Joe Ikley (31:50):
exactly. I mean, from an agronomic perspective, that's
amazing, but we have, we havethe same weeds and the same
issues. So just for for thisdiscussion, yeah, that's great
for other discussions, like, I'dlike to have that a little bit
Sarah Lancaster (32:03):
I think being kind of, I mean, I grew up in
sooner.
kind of the fringe acre for theCorn Belt, right? I grew up in
Missouri. Now I'm in Kansas, andit's just, I think we have a lot
more misses in our growingenvironments, especially as we
go further west. So like, Erin,you were talking about how
(32:25):
perfectly the rainfall was timedand how all the priests got
activated. And so now I'm tryingto put this in the field, in,
you know, dry land corn inOakley, Kansas. And I'm like,
yeah, that doesn't happen. Andso I'm just wondering, like, how
do you have any if you had acrystal ball, like, how would
you think some of these weedmanagement issues would change
(32:48):
as we go into maybe less areasthat have less yield potential
for the corn crop? Does thatmake sense?
Erin Burns (32:56):
Yeah. I mean, I think there's less, let's Yeah,
yield potential, or really, whenwe're I mean, the goal was with
the putting on residuals in apost pass. So I think, thinking
about how that might work inthose areas, I always think
about, you know, we still haverain then, so is it worth it? Or
that may probably needs to beanother, another treatment is,
(33:17):
if you don't have a residual inthe post, like, what? What what
is that going to do? And that'ssomething we haven't, you know,
really looked at, because Iguess we have a gift of being
able to to rely on those. Somaybe some of the benefits
wouldn't be seen as fast, ormaybe, maybe they would. I don't
That's a great question. I justwonder about
Sarah Lancaster (33:39):
the time to canopy closure, right? Kind of
how all that would play playingbecause it have to be a little
slower, I would think,
Erin Burns (33:49):
yeah, yeah, that's what's cool, though. I mean,
it's cool to have a conversationlike this about weed control and
corn, because for a while it'sbeen pretty, not as flexible,
Sarah Lancaster (34:02):
yeah, not a lot of variety. So what other
questions did you have today?Joe?
Joe Ikley (34:12):
No, they hit some of the key ones for me, but
potential changes herbicidelabels and and the old the
underlying thing we didn't quiteaddress is one of my perennial
arguments of it should always becrop stage, not height. But I
realize there's some reasons whyheight is on the labels, but
(34:32):
we're in greenhouse season now,so it's very top, in my mind,
when discussed with new graduatestudents of wind spray stuff,
when you can artificiallyinflate the height of weeds or
plants in the greenhouse, butthat's a different discussion
for a different day, maybe. Butso we kind of covered that. And
as far as weed control isconcerned, that early season
(34:53):
growth seems similar, at leastas far as we know so far so. I'm
good for weed control. Erin Dan,does brown silk still occur at
the same time? Because that'swhen we get the late season weed
control.
Dan Quinn (35:13):
Yeah, a lot of you know from the agronomic side,
outside of you know, probablythe seeding rate, not much is
different in terms of growthsafe timing, and, you know, we
haven't, we're still pretty newon this, you know, the disease
side, you know, you know, we dida little bit with fungicide. It
seemed pretty similar. You know,the nutrient nitrogen side,
(35:37):
pretty similar. We did a hugedefoliation undertaking, you
know, and, you know,reevaluating that versus short
stature, or, you know, normalfull stature corn. And it didn't
differ, right? We didn't haveany, you know, interactions
between foliation timing ordefoliation percentage. So, you
(35:57):
know, outside of, probably thethe seating rate piece, a lot of
it, it's, you know, seems to bepretty similar in how it
behaves, how it works, how itoperates, how it responds to
some of the stresses. So, butalso it's, it's also something
that we don't have a lot of dataon, too. So that's something
that we just over time, we'll,we'll start to tease a lot of
(36:20):
these out, but we just haven'tgotten there
Sarah Lancaster (36:22):
yet. Corn stand. And that reminded me You
mentioned narrower row spacing.So what row spacings Have you
looked at?
Dan Quinn (36:30):
We just did 20 inch rows, 20s farmers and pockets
here and there. Across Indianawith with 20 inch rows. So we
just did 20 inch rows, but wewent up to 50,000 and still
we're seeing that yieldincrease. Now bring, I don't, I
always tell the farmers over butI don't know what the seed is
(36:51):
going to cost, right? So, like,you know that economical, but,
well, it was interesting to seethat potential. So you think
about like Erin, right inMichigan, you know, there's some
20 twos with the sugar beetguys. Yeah, that's
Erin Burns (37:03):
what I was going to add. I know Manny saying, who's
our agronomist working on cornhere? Looked at fifteens and 20
twos, and we were all on 30s,because that's kind of our
typical weed control one. But
Dan Quinn (37:17):
yeah, it's, it was pretty impressive in how it
could respond and tolerate thenarrow rows and the high I mean
in terms of a dense junglecanopy, right? 20 inch rows at
50,000 is about as dense as itgets. But everything I've heard
like from breeding efforts, Imean, they kind of just, they
want to keep it in 30 inch rows.That's where they do the
(37:39):
breeding in 30 inch rows. But,you know, we've, we've seen some
of the potential until theintros.
Sarah Lancaster (37:47):
Did I did we forget to ask? Anything else,
Dan or Erin, is there somethingyou're dying to tell us about
short stature corn that I forgotto ask?
Erin Burns (37:56):
I'm looking at my take home points. And then it
was kind of hit it out. Yeah, I
Dan Quinn (38:01):
think we hit all the main points and yeah, I would
say there's still a lot ofunanswered questions. That's why
we do it right? That's why we dothe research. So we'll figure it
out as it goes
Sarah Lancaster (38:16):
well. Thank you, Dan and Erin for talking
with us today. Do you guys haveany social media websites that
you'd like to share with thelisteners
Dan Quinn (38:26):
you want to go first? Yeah, go ahead, Erin
Erin Burns (38:31):
I'm old school. Um, we don't have a whole heck of a
lot, but if you Google MSUweeds, you'll get to our Weed
Science website, and that'swhere we put everything. So all
of our trial results, pictures,talks we give during the winter,
and students posters and thingslike that. So just Google MSU
leads, and you'll see you'll seeit.
Dan Quinn (38:54):
Yeah, my so we have a website, so you can google my
name at Purdue and or thekernel, right? K, E, R, N, E, L,
dot. Info. Also, that link willget there. There's also a longer
Purdue link that'll that'll getyou there. We post try to get
more and more of our, you know,research books, and, you know,
(39:17):
research trials on there. Andthen I have Twitter x, or
whatever it's called nowadays,Purdue corn is my handle on
there. So we try to think, weshare, share a little bit, bits
and pieces in terms of whatwe're seeing out there. And
(39:37):
then, you know, I'll plug ourpodcast to we have Purdue crop
chat with Sean Castile atPurdue, him and myself have a
podcast. So if you're curiousabout what's going on in
Indiana, we do that more so inthe growing season as well. But
those are the main plugs that wehave for where you can find
(39:58):
stuff from us. Yeah,
Sarah Lancaster (40:01):
excellent. Well, thanks again for joining
us, Dan and Erin, and as always,thanks to the folks who listen.
We will see you all again nexttime.
Thanks for listening to the waragainst weeds podcast. We
appreciate support from thenorth central Integrated Pest
(40:23):
Management Center and thecollaboration with the Crop
Protection Network. At cropprotection network.org you can
find this podcast, otherpodcasts, and a variety of other
pest management resources.
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