March 19, 2025 • 41 mins
It's a bird... it's a plane... it's drones!! Join us this week as Alyssa and Joe discuss all things drones with Dr. Steve Li. If you or anyone you know is interested in drones for agricultural use, consider attending the 2025 Spray Drone End User Conference.
For more info on the conference:
https://www.aces.edu/blog/topics/farming/2025-spray-drone-end-user-conference/
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Music.
Alyssa Essman (00:07):
Welcome back to the war against weeds podcast.
This is Alyssa Essman, WeedScience extension specialist at
Ohio State and today I'm joinedby my co host, Dr Joe Ikley at
North Dakota State University,fresh off the WSSA conference in
Vancouver. How you doing Joe?
Joe Ikley (00:23):
Good, yeah. So it's March 3 when we're recording,
and I saw the sun before 7amtoday. That'll change next
Monday after daylight savings,but the sun angle is getting
higher, so field season shouldcome before too long.
Alyssa Essman (00:37):
Yep, days are getting longer. We're getting
closer and closer to the timewhere things start to get pretty
busy. So we've got a reallyexciting guest, I think
something Joe and I and folks inWeed Science are probably
getting more questions about aswe we think about applications
and and weed management. Sowe're joined today by Dr Steve
Li from Auburn. Welcome Steve.You want to talk a little bit
(01:00):
about what you do and yourprogram,
Steve Li (01:04):
sure. Thanks for having me today. So my name is
Steve Li. I'm a extensionprofessor, maybe focusing
herbicide we signs in the past,and since about five years ago,
I've been doing more and more ofthe drone type of work, and now
(01:26):
maybe looking into some othernewer application platform, and
the more automation workflow onfarm as well. So that's kind of
what I'm doing here in Auburn.
Alyssa Essman (01:39):
Perfect. And then that's points us right to the
reason we brought you on. Soyou're one of the experts that
work in this area that we'retalking about today, and that's
drones for agricultural use, andspecifically herbicide
applications and some weedmanagement considerations. So as
we dive in here, I guess one ofthe questions we get are, what
kinds of drones are currentlyavailable for use in ag and
(02:03):
maybe the differentclassifications and some of
their different
Steve Li (02:05):
Yeah, sure, drones are nothing new. The first type of
drone we saw in agriculture cango back to more than 10 years. I
believe around mid 2010 wealready have a few types of
mapping drones that people canuse in ag. But the problem is
the hardware was not verycapable back then. And also
(02:28):
there was a lack of propersoftware and algorithm to
process the images, you know.And also, in many cases, you do
have images and the fancypictures, but still, that
doesn't tell you what actionsyou need to take. So it still
doesn't replace the ground truthor boots on the ground to scout
(02:52):
the crop, to verify the problem.And that you know that issue
still lingers today, even thoughwe have better hardware, better
drones that can fly moreefficiently, versus 10 years
ago, you know. So I think thisis, this is a reason why the
mapping drones, or or, you know,the drone remote sensing part,
(03:17):
still doesn't get very popularin the production, you know, for
as a research tool, is quite adifferent story. But for farmers
to adopt drone and also theremote sensing drones, I think
we still have a way to go. Butwhat really took off in the last
(03:37):
four years was using drones tospray chemicals to apply cover
crop seed, to apply the drymaterials, you know. So the
spraying and spreading sidereally took off in the last four
years, and this is a very hotgrowing market. We're still
seeing many new operatorsgetting into the operation
(04:00):
almost on monthly basis all overthe country. So I think that's
where we see most of theopportunity associated with withdrawal.
Alyssa Essman (04:12):
So you mentioned there some of those different
uses. Could you walk us throughall the various types of
functions drones can can have inagriculture before we get into
some of the more mapping andspraying specific stuff we think
about with wood weed management.
Steve Li (04:29):
When we mentioned drones, a lot of people still
think about like Mavic or oldPhantom drone, which becomes a
classic icon on lots of T shirtsor even museum pieces, you know?
So that's kind of what what thedrones were initially used for.
And then as time goes on, wefind out more functions and
(04:51):
usages of those drones. Forexample, you can use these
mapping drones or. Drones toscout your field, to map the
obstacles, to map the boundariesof the field, and also to be
able to inspect, say, buildings,houses, or even for commercial
(05:17):
airline companies, you know,they use those mapping drones to
map to inspect their planes forpotential damages or cracks. And
then we're seeing more of theutility companies using these
drones to to map the job sites,for example, construction sites,
(05:39):
and also to use the surveydrones to inspect power line
because most of those powertowers and power lines are
located in a very remote area.The terrains can be a trouble.
These drones replace people andand allow us to to see what's
(05:59):
going on with those powertowers, if the part is going
malfunction, you know, youshould they generate more heat.
So inspection is a pretty bigbusiness. Business united.
There's there about 1000different ways to use these
drones. I mentioned a few. Youknow, you can use it to spray
pesticides. You can use it tospray different crops. You can
(06:24):
use it to spray desiccants. Youcan use it to spray defoliants.
Some people spray the shadepaint on greenhouse to provide
more temperature control on yourgreenhouses. And we have, we
have seen operators sprayinvasive weeds in parks. We have
(06:45):
seen them seed cover crops.Before crop harvest, we have
seen them to spray tree crops.For example, a novel application
is to using large spray drone todry the canopy. You know, in a
lot of cases, and particularlyto prevent the cherry from being
(07:06):
from split, you know. And youcan also spray sunscreens, some
thick sunscreens, onto onto,say, citrus, you know, oranges
to provide to prevent the citrusgetting sunburned. Because if
they're getting sunburned, thatside is usually the fruit is not
marketable. So and also, we havesome operator interested in
(07:31):
mosquito control, using dronesto apply mosquito products
adulticide to kill the flyingmosquitoes. And I'm sure I
forget about a few usages, youknow, because you can find a lot
of different areas you can usethe drones for. And down here in
the south, we have so muchwater, so much rain, we have
(07:53):
seen drone operators sprayingaquatic weeds, managing the
weeds along the irrigationditches or river banks, you
know, those hard to reach areato manage the unwanted
vegetation. We have seen folksspraying roadside with it, or
(08:14):
thinking about spraying roadsideand the railway tracks for
vegetation management, manydifferent application usages
that we can find for thesefirms. Can you kind
Alyssa Essman (08:26):
of walk us through, I guess, those areas
and some of the research thatyou've been doing looking at
drones, thinking about some ofthose mapping and pesticide
applications.
Steve Li (08:36):
So our research focus are mainly in the in the
pesticide application, becausethe biggest question from the
field operators and from thefarmers is, how do these drones
compare to our traditionalmethods such as ground sprayer
and airplanes, and also, How canwe achieve good efficacy and
(09:01):
also ensure sufficientefficiency with the drones. All
right, so a lot of our researchand the field trials have been
focusing on these questions. Sothe goal is to provide the drone
operators and farmers with thebest parameters, and also the
(09:24):
best main edge, best managementpractice to spray with the
drones to ensure efficacy andefficiency. So far, we have
sufficient data to say dronespraying is very similar to your
traditional crop dusterapplication in terms of the
(09:46):
droplet size, deposition,canopy, penetration and
efficacy. There are stilldifferences between the drone
and the plane or helicopter. Youknow, the drones still don't fly
as quick. As your crop duster,obviously, but also as a form of
(10:06):
area application, particularlythe low GPA. We call it low GPA
application. You know, you spraymostly between two to five GPA
row crop. You know, especiallycrop is higher. So within the
row crop range, you know the lowapplication volume, it resembles
the plane and helicopters fairlywell versus the ground sprayer.
(10:29):
So we have seen very comparableresults between drones and the
planes All right. And also wecan achieve similar deposition
coverage, and can be penetrationwith the drones as ground
sprayer as well, even the groundsprayer spray, you know, five to
(10:51):
eight times more water. Butsomething we learned over the
years is it's not it's notalways the more water, the
better. I already can get youplenty examples in the past that
we achieved a similar or evenbetter canopy deposition and
penetration using lower waterthan, you know, using lower
(11:15):
water with drones, than groundsprayer or ground blaster, you
know, orchard, you know, usingway higher water. So with that
being said, right now, the focusis on, how can we ensure the
spray uniformity with the dronesat these lower GPA, and how can
we reduce the drift and thebalance the on target deposition
(11:41):
versus drift, because a bigissue we're facing is we have to
use smaller droplets to spray ata low gallop breaker, but which
at the same time, that means thedrift can happen quite easily.
So we're trying to find a commonground between sufficient
deposition, and also managingthe drift effectively. That's
(12:05):
hard to do when you only spraytwo or three gallon per acre of
water. And also more efficacyassessment are still being
conducted in multiple crops togive operator and the farmers
higher confidence that this isgoing to be available to ensure
sufficient efficacy to controlthe pest. So a lot of focus are
(12:28):
in in the simulation offungicide and insecticide work.
We also have some herbicidetrial spray in the past in row
crops. But I also want to saythis is not a area I highly
recommend folks using drones onjust because it's hard to spray
(12:51):
some of the herbicide evenly,particularly like the content
herbicide evenly row crops andalso some of the herbicide
labels do not support, supportlow GPA application. You want to
go for two, three GPA that'sactually against the label. And
also some important herbicidesthat we used in the past do not
have a re application. To giveyou some famous example of the
(13:15):
earliest herbicide, and also theDicamba herbicide that people
spray row crop. Neither onesupport every application. So
there are some challenges withusing the drones to spray these
herbicide row crops. But also,when you go outside the row
crops, you know, say you'relooking at pasture, Hayfield,
rangeland, vegetationmanagement, non crop that I
(13:37):
think that's where the droneshines. You know, I don't think
that where the drones shine as atool.
Joe Ikley (13:45):
So one thing that popped in my mind when you were
discussing a lot of theapplication parameters, for me
was the deposition. And I justknow I've, I've not worked with
drones, but I've seen the videosand just the amount of
vegetation movement under thepropellers, and so that does not
really seem to influencedeposition compared to our more
(14:09):
traditional either crop dusteror ground rig application.
Steve Li (14:12):
Yes, that is also a common question from the field
operation. So propellerdowndraft or propeller wash is
an interesting factor, andthat's definitely a pretty
unique thing for the drone,because from the aerodynamics
that we learned, the faster wemove, the faster the aircraft
moves, the less propellerdowndraft we'd see as in fact,
(14:36):
the crop duster can still Giveyou some propeller downdraft,
you know, and some airturbulence that that is still a
thing, but you know, it'sdifficult to ask them to spray a
field at a 2030, mile per hour,you know, because their usual
operational range is about 150mile per hour. So they can't
(14:57):
slow down and increase thepropeller. Downdraft. So the
interesting thing with thedrones is, when you need high
canopy penetration, you know,you are able to slow down and
use a fine mist to blow the finemist very deep into the canopy.
You know, you can shake the cropunderneath very hard. So to give
(15:18):
you analogy, it's almost like aair blaster, you know, like air
blast sprayer the orchard usedjust putting the air blast
orchard face down and spray, youknow, so we are able to
manipulate those parameters toincrease the canopy penetration.
But that also brings up a fewother faults, or a few other
(15:39):
points that we also have tobalance. Usually, when you spray
slower, you lose yourefficiency, which means you
don't cover that many groundthat much ground as possible.
And also it's likely that whenyou slow the drone too much, you
can blow through the canopy, andat that time, you know, in that
(16:00):
situation, we don't want towaste the chemical by pushing
them off to the ground, becausewe're trying to kill the pest in
the canopy, inside the canopy,versus blow it through, you
know. So there are a few thingswe also need to consider. What
we have seen also in the past isif your spray volume is too
(16:22):
small, for example, only two tothree GPA, even though you slow
the drone down and try to blowas much wind as possible into
the canopy. We saw we just ranout of the droplets to the
bottom of the canopy, eventhough the air may can travel
through the canopy, but thedroplets are just, you know, too
(16:43):
few to begin with. That'sanother factor to consider,
Alyssa Essman (16:48):
I guess, a couple other questions from the field,
application side. One questionwe get is late season
applications and the potentialto use it for something like
Burke cucumber, late season. Doyou have any thoughts on those
sorts of application types?
Steve Li (17:04):
Yes, and I'm glad you mentioned bird cucumber, because
that's, that's a weed I getquestioned before from the folks
in Midwest. We have an equal badweed out here called Morning
Glory. It basically does thesame thing, you know? So for
corn desiccation, we are able tocontrol these wings. Well, maybe
(17:28):
control is not a good work. Weare able to desiccate this we
and and facilitate harvest. Sothat is not a thing anymore. We
have done two or three years offield trials looking into
chemicals and the spray GPA anddifferent parameters, at least
for modern glory, we are able tocontrol it really, really
(17:51):
effective. For bird cucumber, Ithink the recipe should be
pretty similar as well. It'smostly a desiccation job using
very hot contact herbicide,whether it's aim or like
gramoxone or other contactherbicide. You know, we want
something hot. One thing Ireally love to see is liberty.
(18:17):
If Liberty has a desiccationlabel, it will be a really,
really nice thing, because itdoes work really well on those
weeds, but unfortunately, itdoesn't have a desiccation. You
know, otherwise, it will beanother great tool for us to
have. So I think for corndesiccation, you hit a really
good point, at least. That's athat's basically butter and
(18:38):
bread for drone operators. Youknow, when I made my
presentation to the Midwestfolks, several of them have come
and asked me about, how can weprecisely spray bird cucumber?
Because, you know, unless youhave a total weed control
failure, they're at they'regoing to show up around the
field edges. There will be a fewlow, wet spots where it's always
(19:02):
weedy, that's where you're goingto see that type of weeds, you
know. So it's only going to showup on certain parts of the
field, or some of the fieldtypically struggle with weeds,
so they want to spray those areamore precisely with the draw.
And that workflow is fairlyeasy, because when corn dies
off, you know, when it's readyfor harvest. Anything green is
(19:25):
not your friend. Anything greenis supposed to be brown, you
know, that's all weeds, right?So we can draw a prescription
and make the drone to spraythose spots very precisely that
that's not difficult at all, aslong as you have a mapping
drone, you know. So we can, wecan spray the whole field, if we
have to. Or we can just spray afew acres where we see most of
(19:48):
the bird, cucumber and one gloryand and just desiccate it, you
know. But one thing we have seenin the past is, after we
desiccate those few spots withplenty of weeds, can. And then
the grower, for some reason,doesn't get back to harvest the
whole field on time. And thenthe rest of fields start to grow
with all kind of weeds, youknow, and that would be a
(20:10):
problem. So after desiccation,the farmers have to make a
timely effort to get a corn outof the field, otherwise it's
still going to eat up by theseweeds, again in a short period.
And also talking about corn weedmanagement, I know this might
may not apply to to the wholecountry, but you know, down
here, we still got plentygrowing degree days after corn
(20:33):
harvest in August, sometimes itcould be as long as the three
months. So something we want todo, and this has been done by
the drone operator in multiplestates is to spread cover crop
seeds before corn canopy givesup. All right, so we're hoping
these cover crop seeds cangerminate underneath the canopy.
(20:54):
Instead of allowing your Burcunumber, your pigweed or grasses
or morning gourd to germinate,we want the cover crops seeds to
germinate first and thennaturally compete against those
weeds. So they are so small andthey just stay underneath the
corn canopy, so they will notcompete against the corn for
water and nutrients. But when acorn dies off, when the sun gets
(21:17):
down, they start to take off.You know, they will utilize the
remaining water to utilizeremaining fertilizer instead of
being used used by the weeds. Socover crop utilize those
resources and grow, andhopefully they can actually
compete against the weeds. Andalso, it's a different way to
establish the cover crop wayearly, you know. And you can
(21:38):
also spread the seeds yourselfon some of the off shape fields,
this may not be suitable for thecrop dusters. So we're also
looking for that as apossibility to conquer this weed
infestation problem in lateseason in corn. Yeah,
Joe Ikley (21:53):
I was going to ask with the cover crop seed, and if
you've done enough work goingback to the propeller down wash
question, if that's actuallyhelpful in that situation,
helping get the cover crop seedto the ground and not caught up
in the canopy.
Steve Li (22:08):
Yes And also believe, if you have some significant
rainfall, let's just say one dayrained one or two inches. I
believe the rain eventually canwash the seeds down as well. But
desiccation can also be used insoybean, in cotton as well. In
cotton, we don't call itdesiccation, we'll call it
defoliation, but the purpose arekind of similar. You know, you
(22:30):
kill the plants and drop theleaves. Some of the folks also
try to desiccate a soybean withthe drones. You know, that
situation is a little bit different.
Alyssa Essman (22:40):
Yeah, it seems like that desiccation,
especially with that colordifference at the end of the
season, is a really good fit.What about I guess, where are we
at in terms of site specificmanagement earlier in the
season? Or is that somethingfolks are working on with maybe
more rapid identification, oranything like that?
Steve Li (22:58):
many people ask that question just because seeing
spray is a pretty big thing outthere for us, right? And my
growers also asked me thatquestion, Hey, can you do see
and spray thing with yourdrones? The answer is, depends
on how accurate you want to getand depends on what you want me
(23:18):
to spray. It's not a $700,000machine. So let's don't expect
it can do $700 thing, you know,because they only cost a
fraction of it, right? So whatwe can do and what we cannot do,
that's what everybody wants toknow from a non biased
perspective. So cn spray can seetiny weeds and be able to spray
(23:43):
individual weeds. All right, weall know that it works really
well. First, for some our groweralready adopted that technology.
The drones are not able to dothat, because if the drone turns
on the spray system on and off,it's gonna be almost like
umbrella shape of the spraydroplets coming down, right? So
(24:05):
just talking about the hardware,I'm not able to target
individual leads as precise asseen spray. The other issue,
which might be a bigger problem,is scene spray has all the
cameras on the boom, and theboom is only, you know, two,
three feet above the ground.Let's just say we're targeting
early application, you know, orweeds in small crops. If the
(24:30):
cameras are only positionedthree, four feet off the ground,
then you can see everything onthe ground. So clearly, right?
For me to spar spray thosereally patches to be able to see
them. I have to utilize the Maccontrols, because the same
workflow does not exist on spraydrill. Some people also ask,
(24:53):
Hey, can you put a camera on thespray draw and put some put your
computer, your graphic card.Your AI on the drone so we can
see the weeds trigger a decisionwhether to spray or not, and be
able to spray like that. I saidfrom engineering perspective,
well, I'm not an engineer, sodon't quote me on it, but from
(25:14):
the engineering perspective, andall the smart people I know
after working in drones for afew years, I believe if I need,
if I have the budget, you know,that's another problem. You
know, whether you have thebudget to do or not, if I have a
big budget, I can get a bunch ofsmart people in the room and
women can figure this out, youknow. So as a workflow, it
shouldn't be that difficult. Butthe issue is all the other
(25:37):
things you you have to figureout that come with it. You know,
for example, drones is not yourground sprayer. The biggest
trouble is payload. We cannothandle too much additional
payload or weight carrying witha drone. Second, the battery
life is a problem. All right,the more electronics you put on
a drone, the more battery isgonna burn, which means the
(25:58):
heavier the battery is gonnaget, which means the fewer
flying minutes I'm gonna have.So many people ask, how many?
How long? How many minutes thesedrones can fly? The answer is
usually not a very impressivenumber, maybe seven to eight
minutes. That's where we at all.Right, so you put all these
things on drone, reduce theflying time to four minutes. Now
(26:19):
it's literally just can't doanything for you, otherwise,
your risk can crash in thedrone. It may not even come back
and ran out of battery. Justcrash. So that's the issue of
putting the same C and spraysystem on the drone, you know,
and make it do the same thing.It just, I don't see a lot of
setting points there, you know,your field operation. So what we
(26:40):
play with was, the workflow weplay with is, is relying on
mapping drones to see where theweeds are, and then we get
everyone back, we processimages, or kind of figure out
where we need to spray, where wedon't need don't spray, or don't
have to spray, and then generatea prescription, and then export
(27:01):
a prescription to the drone, orI can export a prescription to a
regular John Deere sprayer. Aslong as the John Deere sprayer
has pulse width modulation orexact apply, I can make the John
Deere sprayer to spray with onlya few nozzles to hit the whip
patches here and there. That'snothing difficult either. And
then that's how we tackle thesespa spraying or site specific
(27:25):
management, as you mentioned.The good thing is, you can still
do it in a fairly cheap way,using the equipment we have now.
But the drawback is it does taketime. So you have to map the
draw. You have to send out a Macand drone map the field, analyze
images, generate prescription,upload to your machine, so we
(27:46):
can do it. So that does takesome time, not terribly long,
but still not as fast as scenespray. The other issue is I
won't be as accurate as the CNsquare. I can spray some
patches, but I can't targetindividual weeds, and I have
seen that happen before, allright, so, for example, some of
(28:06):
the Pinot fields, I test theworkflow. I can spray the edges
really well. I can spray some ofthe big patches in the field,
but as the spray don't flythrough the field, because I
have the 4k camera first personview, I can see some of the
weeds are just being missed,because I can't justify spraying
that grid with only one weedunit.
Alyssa Essman (28:27):
So so based on all of your experiences so far,
you've mentioned a couple ofthese, but could you kind of
walk us through some of thebenefits and drawbacks and the
risks associated with usingdrones in these ways.
Steve Li (28:42):
if your question are drawbacks or risk, I couldn't
think of too many, because thebenefits definitely outweigh the
drawbacks. That that has to bethe reason why we're seeing
rapid adoption all over theplace, you know. So if I have to
name a few drawbacks or risk, Iwould say drift. That's a big
(29:02):
one. And that's a big one we'reconcerned about. The last thing
I want to see is some 18 yearsold or reckless folks getting a
few drones with no license, withno insurance. That's another
sore subject in drone spraying,a lot of illegal operations, and
people spraying with no nothingyou know. So those people having
(29:24):
no insurance, no training, nopaperwork, start to spray
herbicides, had no clue whatthey were doing, not paying
attention to the setting, notpaying attention to weather
condition, spraying in 1520,mile per hour wind, doing a
herpes herbicide job and driftall over the place in summer, or
(29:45):
spraying illegal herbicide, sayyour list, or Dicamba herbicide
over the top on soybean orcotton, you know, which is a
clear violation of the federallabel and cause quite a bit of
damage. Around, ended up, don'thave insurance, don't have a
liability to pay, and then justleave really sour feeling, you
(30:09):
know, for the for the farmingcommunity in the whole area, you
know, so that that would be areally sad thing to see. And
also from a liabilityperspective, I have to say, even
you are a legal commercialoperator. You have license, you
have insurance, you are your youhave your passes, pesticide
applicator license andeverything if you apply purpose
(30:32):
i illegally, or any pesticideillegally and cause the trouble.
Let's just say in this case, youapply your list or Dicamba with
a drone and cause damage yourunderwriter, your insurance
underwriter, you know it doesn'tmatter which company you use,
they will not pay because thereis a clear documentation that
(30:52):
you violated the label or thelaw in the first place. That
basically, basically exoneratesyour insurance company from
paying any of your damage. Thisis why I said to a lot of visual
operators, because I do trainingfor, you know, for for them on
regular basis. Most of them havebeen to my training, you know,
(31:13):
multiple times in the past, Isaid this many times, don't feel
like somebody give you a bigjob, and that justified risking
yourself, your business, tospray something illegal, you
know, just for the profit,because if you messed up that
job, the consequences, you mightlose your whole business. You're
(31:35):
and you're still being hold aliable for the damage your cost,
you know, depends on how big ofmaster created. So that's a
pretty big risk. I want tomention to all the drone
operators. One of the otherthings
Alyssa Essman (31:50):
I think that comes up here that can be
confusing for folks is thelabeling aspect you mentioned.
Could you walk us through, Iguess, what to look for on a
label, and maybe what you seedown the road is any labeling
guidelines that might apply todrones?
Steve Li (32:06):
Sure, that is a great question. And also, I want to
appreciate our EPA office ofpesticide management for
allowing the drone operators toutilize the aerial label, at
least currently, you know,because our northern neighbor,
the PMRA, in Canada, does notallow drone spraying at all at
(32:27):
this stage, they finally openup, you know, their decision a
little bit, but it's going tohave to go through label by
label modification, and thinkabout how long that's going to
take, versus a generic approvalsuch as EPA gave us. So the
effort of creating dronededicated label has been there
(32:50):
for a few years, and I haveparticipated some of the
meetings with CropLife Americaand EPA on the initiative, but I
do want to say still gonna beyears away, maybe decades away
before we see it depends on howquickly the drones are being
adopted, depends on how manyacres they are being sprayed.
(33:13):
You know, as you all canimagine, if the drones are
spraying, if the drones arespraying more and more acres,
let's just say all the cropduster in the US combined spray
maybe 130 30 million acres.Let's just say, if all the
drones combined spray half ofthat, then I would expect this
initiative in EPA and among thethe chemical restaurants will go
(33:35):
a lot faster right now, thesedrones, all the drones in the
US, are spraying about 10million acres right now, based
on the latest survey conductedby America's spray room
coalition, I'm not surprised tosee if we can keep feeding the
market, keep growing the market.Nobody messed up big time, and
we don't have big changes inregular regulation, the numbers
(33:58):
of acres being sprayed willdouble probably every 12 to 24
months. So this exponentialstage still holds true. After
talking to many differentdealers, distributors and
operators, we all believe that.So we want to see the drone
label happen just because we'restill in the exponential growth
(34:20):
stage and more and morepesticides are being sprayed by
the drone, but there are somechallenges as well. For example,
the biggest one is what type oflanguage we need to include in
the drone label and what theywhat they are like. But what are
(34:40):
those languages we know the PPErequirement, the worker
protection requirement, is a bigone, because you're not spraying
the cab anymore, and we all havedrift on ourselves when we
spray. All right? Because as adrone operator, I want to stay
on the high ground. I want tostay on the. Ground, so I can
(35:00):
see what's going on. The lastthing you want to do is set, set
your base, set your trailer atthe bottom of the field, and
then as soon as the drone goesto the other side, and then you
lose signal, you lose signal,most likely means you're gonna
crash it, right? But higherground also can be downwind,
which is the problem, you know,which means we're spraying
ourselves at the same time. Sohow can we protect the worker,
(35:24):
the operator, the visualobserver? You know, that's that
has always been my question. Andalso, how can we ensure the
drift is managed? Because if youlook into the current aerial
label, there are things outthere. There are requirements
out there to help reducing thedrift. For example, with your
(35:46):
traditional crop dusting playsome other some of label
requirement may tell you thatyou cannot spray with more than
60% of the because the closeryou get to the edge of the wind
tip, the more turbulence yousee, the more drift you see, you
know, and also the drop, thesize requirement, I guess we're
(36:07):
working on it. Registrants areunderstanding more about the
drone as a two you know. Andhopefully, the more data we can
generate, the more efficacy,drift data, the only deposition
data, and all these data we cangenerate from academia, the
sooner we might be able to seethe future drone labels.
Alyssa Essman (36:30):
So you've you've provided some really great
information and context for alot of these things today. As we
wrap up here, could you give ussome final considerations and
recommendations for folks whoare looking to get into drone
applications or who are alreadyusing them,
Steve Li (36:47):
if I only, if I can only make one recommendation
that is be prepared, becauseyour application for part 137 is
going to take a while to becomea legal operator, so you do need
to prepare at least six to eightmonths just getting all your
certificates and the necessarypaperwork being processed. But
(37:11):
try everything you can to beillegal. Try everything you can
to operate with a liabilitycoverage. That's what we really
need for this industry,especially you try, you want to
spray commercially, you want tobe a custom applicator, then you
have to be legal and respect allthe rules and laws, even though
(37:31):
it may not always make sense,you know, it may. It may take a
long time, but that's what wereally need for the industry.
And then just try to learn asmuch as you can, because, as I
said something I told peoplelast year, doesn't even hold it
true this year of how quicklythings changes if you are not
(37:52):
type of the person payingattention to newer technology,
to new equipment, to newupdates, you just like to do the
same old thing over and overagain. And I will say ground
sprayer is a better fit for you.You know, you can still find
some 20 year old ground rigrunning out there that should be
your job instead of being adrone operator, because you're
(38:14):
learning something new everyday. You know, just just
repairing the drone, diagnosethe error message popping up on
the controller that can be ahuge part of field operation in
summer, because they do breakpretty costly. So BPO can be
willing to learn and be willingto try new things, and then also
(38:35):
this apply to your job as well,if anyone telling me, I'm so
happy to spring corn fungicide,which is the largest market for
every application, and I'll tellthem, I'll tell them right away
that your business probably notgoing to do too well down the
road. You have to think about,what else can you do? Because
there are so many opportunitiesout there. Well,
Alyssa Essman (38:57):
we really appreciate you being here with
us today. Dr Li, you've given usa lot to think about for this
topic before we say goodbye. Canyou give us maybe any lab
websites or social media thatyou may have where folks can
find more information from you
Steve Li (39:13):
sure most of the drone operators on Facebook. If you
ask me, why that is, that is thecase. I don't know. It's just
the way it is. Maybe theFacebook is the best platform to
provide mutual communication.People can post pictures and
videos and be able to write afairly long post if they need
(39:36):
to, you know? So that's just howit started. There are several
spray drone groups on Facebook,there are that are highly useful
and helpful for the newoperators. You know, I I created
one three years ago. It's calledagricultural drones for the
United States. And also, there'sanother one run by agrispray.
(40:00):
Room called ag spray rooms ofNorth America, both are pretty
good, and we try to remove thecontent and keep it as clean as
possible. Because, you know, twoyears ago, we had so many
scammers, internationalscammers, trying to scam people
almost on daily basis. We prettymuch kicked all of them out and
eradicated those. And also wetry to keep the sales ads out,
(40:25):
you know, and make make ituseful for people's time. And
then I'm also hosting thelargest spray drone event, which
is called the spray drone EndUser Conference, is happening
later this month in Mobile,Alabama. So this year we are
(40:45):
getting a whole conventioncenter for us. So only after
three years, you know, now we'reso big that we need a convention
center for the events. You know,registration has exceeded 500
people, so I'm hoping probably400 in person at the end, you
know, and with also with remoteoptions. So if you cannot join
(41:06):
the event in person, you canregister remote and be able to
access the conference on Zoom.And also the recording will be
available for all participants,you know. But of course, we
would like to see you in mobileif you can make the trip
Alyssa Essman (41:25):
Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us.
Dr Li and to the listeners, wehope you'll tune in next week to
the War Against Weeds podcast.
Thanks for tuning in. Just areminder, you can find this and
other podcasts and resources onthe crop protection network.
(41:46):
This network has a host ofinformation from extension
programs across the US about allthings pest management. We hope
to catch you next week on thewar against weeds Podcast.
Music.
Alyssa Essman (00:07):
Welcome back to the war against weeds podcast.
This is Alyssa Essman, WeedScience extension specialist at
Ohio State and today I'm joinedby my co host, Dr Joe Ikley at
North Dakota State University,fresh off the WSSA conference in
Vancouver. How you doing Joe?
Joe Ikley (00:23):
Good, yeah. So it's March 3 when we're recording,
and I saw the sun before 7amtoday. That'll change next
Monday after daylight savings,but the sun angle is getting
higher, so field season shouldcome before too long.
Alyssa Essman (00:37):
Yep, days are getting longer. We're getting
closer and closer to the timewhere things start to get pretty
busy. So we've got a reallyexciting guest, I think
something Joe and I and folks inWeed Science are probably
getting more questions about aswe we think about applications
and and weed management. Sowe're joined today by Dr Steve
Li from Auburn. Welcome Steve.You want to talk a little bit
(01:00):
about what you do and yourprogram,
Steve Li (01:04):
sure. Thanks for having me today. So my name is
Steve Li. I'm a extensionprofessor, maybe focusing
herbicide we signs in the past,and since about five years ago,
I've been doing more and more ofthe drone type of work, and now
(01:26):
maybe looking into some othernewer application platform, and
the more automation workflow onfarm as well. So that's kind of
what I'm doing here in Auburn.
Alyssa Essman (01:39):
Perfect. And then that's points us right to the
reason we brought you on. Soyou're one of the experts that
work in this area that we'retalking about today, and that's
drones for agricultural use, andspecifically herbicide
applications and some weedmanagement considerations. So as
we dive in here, I guess one ofthe questions we get are, what
kinds of drones are currentlyavailable for use in ag and
(02:03):
maybe the differentclassifications and some of
their different
Steve Li (02:05):
Yeah, sure, drones are nothing new. The first type of
drone we saw in agriculture cango back to more than 10 years. I
believe around mid 2010 wealready have a few types of
mapping drones that people canuse in ag. But the problem is
the hardware was not verycapable back then. And also
(02:28):
there was a lack of propersoftware and algorithm to
process the images, you know.And also, in many cases, you do
have images and the fancypictures, but still, that
doesn't tell you what actionsyou need to take. So it still
doesn't replace the ground truthor boots on the ground to scout
(02:52):
the crop, to verify the problem.And that you know that issue
still lingers today, even thoughwe have better hardware, better
drones that can fly moreefficiently, versus 10 years
ago, you know. So I think thisis, this is a reason why the
mapping drones, or or, you know,the drone remote sensing part,
(03:17):
still doesn't get very popularin the production, you know, for
as a research tool, is quite adifferent story. But for farmers
to adopt drone and also theremote sensing drones, I think
we still have a way to go. Butwhat really took off in the last
(03:37):
four years was using drones tospray chemicals to apply cover
crop seed, to apply the drymaterials, you know. So the
spraying and spreading sidereally took off in the last four
years, and this is a very hotgrowing market. We're still
seeing many new operatorsgetting into the operation
(04:00):
almost on monthly basis all overthe country. So I think that's
where we see most of theopportunity associated with withdrawal.
Alyssa Essman (04:12):
So you mentioned there some of those different
uses. Could you walk us throughall the various types of
functions drones can can have inagriculture before we get into
some of the more mapping andspraying specific stuff we think
about with wood weed management.
Steve Li (04:29):
When we mentioned drones, a lot of people still
think about like Mavic or oldPhantom drone, which becomes a
classic icon on lots of T shirtsor even museum pieces, you know?
So that's kind of what what thedrones were initially used for.
And then as time goes on, wefind out more functions and
(04:51):
usages of those drones. Forexample, you can use these
mapping drones or. Drones toscout your field, to map the
obstacles, to map the boundariesof the field, and also to be
able to inspect, say, buildings,houses, or even for commercial
(05:17):
airline companies, you know,they use those mapping drones to
map to inspect their planes forpotential damages or cracks. And
then we're seeing more of theutility companies using these
drones to to map the job sites,for example, construction sites,
(05:39):
and also to use the surveydrones to inspect power line
because most of those powertowers and power lines are
located in a very remote area.The terrains can be a trouble.
These drones replace people andand allow us to to see what's
(05:59):
going on with those powertowers, if the part is going
malfunction, you know, youshould they generate more heat.
So inspection is a pretty bigbusiness. Business united.
There's there about 1000different ways to use these
drones. I mentioned a few. Youknow, you can use it to spray
pesticides. You can use it tospray different crops. You can
(06:24):
use it to spray desiccants. Youcan use it to spray defoliants.
Some people spray the shadepaint on greenhouse to provide
more temperature control on yourgreenhouses. And we have, we
have seen operators sprayinvasive weeds in parks. We have
(06:45):
seen them seed cover crops.Before crop harvest, we have
seen them to spray tree crops.For example, a novel application
is to using large spray drone todry the canopy. You know, in a
lot of cases, and particularlyto prevent the cherry from being
(07:06):
from split, you know. And youcan also spray sunscreens, some
thick sunscreens, onto onto,say, citrus, you know, oranges
to provide to prevent the citrusgetting sunburned. Because if
they're getting sunburned, thatside is usually the fruit is not
marketable. So and also, we havesome operator interested in
(07:31):
mosquito control, using dronesto apply mosquito products
adulticide to kill the flyingmosquitoes. And I'm sure I
forget about a few usages, youknow, because you can find a lot
of different areas you can usethe drones for. And down here in
the south, we have so muchwater, so much rain, we have
(07:53):
seen drone operators sprayingaquatic weeds, managing the
weeds along the irrigationditches or river banks, you
know, those hard to reach areato manage the unwanted
vegetation. We have seen folksspraying roadside with it, or
(08:14):
thinking about spraying roadsideand the railway tracks for
vegetation management, manydifferent application usages
that we can find for thesefirms. Can you kind
Alyssa Essman (08:26):
of walk us through, I guess, those areas
and some of the research thatyou've been doing looking at
drones, thinking about some ofthose mapping and pesticide
applications.
Steve Li (08:36):
So our research focus are mainly in the in the
pesticide application, becausethe biggest question from the
field operators and from thefarmers is, how do these drones
compare to our traditionalmethods such as ground sprayer
and airplanes, and also, How canwe achieve good efficacy and
(09:01):
also ensure sufficientefficiency with the drones. All
right, so a lot of our researchand the field trials have been
focusing on these questions. Sothe goal is to provide the drone
operators and farmers with thebest parameters, and also the
(09:24):
best main edge, best managementpractice to spray with the
drones to ensure efficacy andefficiency. So far, we have
sufficient data to say dronespraying is very similar to your
traditional crop dusterapplication in terms of the
(09:46):
droplet size, deposition,canopy, penetration and
efficacy. There are stilldifferences between the drone
and the plane or helicopter. Youknow, the drones still don't fly
as quick. As your crop duster,obviously, but also as a form of
(10:06):
area application, particularlythe low GPA. We call it low GPA
application. You know, you spraymostly between two to five GPA
row crop. You know, especiallycrop is higher. So within the
row crop range, you know the lowapplication volume, it resembles
the plane and helicopters fairlywell versus the ground sprayer.
(10:29):
So we have seen very comparableresults between drones and the
planes All right. And also wecan achieve similar deposition
coverage, and can be penetrationwith the drones as ground
sprayer as well, even the groundsprayer spray, you know, five to
(10:51):
eight times more water. Butsomething we learned over the
years is it's not it's notalways the more water, the
better. I already can get youplenty examples in the past that
we achieved a similar or evenbetter canopy deposition and
penetration using lower waterthan, you know, using lower
(11:15):
water with drones, than groundsprayer or ground blaster, you
know, orchard, you know, usingway higher water. So with that
being said, right now, the focusis on, how can we ensure the
spray uniformity with the dronesat these lower GPA, and how can
we reduce the drift and thebalance the on target deposition
(11:41):
versus drift, because a bigissue we're facing is we have to
use smaller droplets to spray ata low gallop breaker, but which
at the same time, that means thedrift can happen quite easily.
So we're trying to find a commonground between sufficient
deposition, and also managingthe drift effectively. That's
(12:05):
hard to do when you only spraytwo or three gallon per acre of
water. And also more efficacyassessment are still being
conducted in multiple crops togive operator and the farmers
higher confidence that this isgoing to be available to ensure
sufficient efficacy to controlthe pest. So a lot of focus are
(12:28):
in in the simulation offungicide and insecticide work.
We also have some herbicidetrial spray in the past in row
crops. But I also want to saythis is not a area I highly
recommend folks using drones onjust because it's hard to spray
(12:51):
some of the herbicide evenly,particularly like the content
herbicide evenly row crops andalso some of the herbicide
labels do not support, supportlow GPA application. You want to
go for two, three GPA that'sactually against the label. And
also some important herbicidesthat we used in the past do not
have a re application. To giveyou some famous example of the
(13:15):
earliest herbicide, and also theDicamba herbicide that people
spray row crop. Neither onesupport every application. So
there are some challenges withusing the drones to spray these
herbicide row crops. But also,when you go outside the row
crops, you know, say you'relooking at pasture, Hayfield,
rangeland, vegetationmanagement, non crop that I
(13:37):
think that's where the droneshines. You know, I don't think
that where the drones shine as atool.
Joe Ikley (13:45):
So one thing that popped in my mind when you were
discussing a lot of theapplication parameters, for me
was the deposition. And I justknow I've, I've not worked with
drones, but I've seen the videosand just the amount of
vegetation movement under thepropellers, and so that does not
really seem to influencedeposition compared to our more
(14:09):
traditional either crop dusteror ground rig application.
Steve Li (14:12):
Yes, that is also a common question from the field
operation. So propellerdowndraft or propeller wash is
an interesting factor, andthat's definitely a pretty
unique thing for the drone,because from the aerodynamics
that we learned, the faster wemove, the faster the aircraft
moves, the less propellerdowndraft we'd see as in fact,
(14:36):
the crop duster can still Giveyou some propeller downdraft,
you know, and some airturbulence that that is still a
thing, but you know, it'sdifficult to ask them to spray a
field at a 2030, mile per hour,you know, because their usual
operational range is about 150mile per hour. So they can't
(14:57):
slow down and increase thepropeller. Downdraft. So the
interesting thing with thedrones is, when you need high
canopy penetration, you know,you are able to slow down and
use a fine mist to blow the finemist very deep into the canopy.
You know, you can shake the cropunderneath very hard. So to give
(15:18):
you analogy, it's almost like aair blaster, you know, like air
blast sprayer the orchard usedjust putting the air blast
orchard face down and spray, youknow, so we are able to
manipulate those parameters toincrease the canopy penetration.
But that also brings up a fewother faults, or a few other
(15:39):
points that we also have tobalance. Usually, when you spray
slower, you lose yourefficiency, which means you
don't cover that many groundthat much ground as possible.
And also it's likely that whenyou slow the drone too much, you
can blow through the canopy, andat that time, you know, in that
(16:00):
situation, we don't want towaste the chemical by pushing
them off to the ground, becausewe're trying to kill the pest in
the canopy, inside the canopy,versus blow it through, you
know. So there are a few thingswe also need to consider. What
we have seen also in the past isif your spray volume is too
(16:22):
small, for example, only two tothree GPA, even though you slow
the drone down and try to blowas much wind as possible into
the canopy. We saw we just ranout of the droplets to the
bottom of the canopy, eventhough the air may can travel
through the canopy, but thedroplets are just, you know, too
(16:43):
few to begin with. That'sanother factor to consider,
Alyssa Essman (16:48):
I guess, a couple other questions from the field,
application side. One questionwe get is late season
applications and the potentialto use it for something like
Burke cucumber, late season. Doyou have any thoughts on those
sorts of application types?
Steve Li (17:04):
Yes, and I'm glad you mentioned bird cucumber, because
that's, that's a weed I getquestioned before from the folks
in Midwest. We have an equal badweed out here called Morning
Glory. It basically does thesame thing, you know? So for
corn desiccation, we are able tocontrol these wings. Well, maybe
(17:28):
control is not a good work. Weare able to desiccate this we
and and facilitate harvest. Sothat is not a thing anymore. We
have done two or three years offield trials looking into
chemicals and the spray GPA anddifferent parameters, at least
for modern glory, we are able tocontrol it really, really
(17:51):
effective. For bird cucumber, Ithink the recipe should be
pretty similar as well. It'smostly a desiccation job using
very hot contact herbicide,whether it's aim or like
gramoxone or other contactherbicide. You know, we want
something hot. One thing Ireally love to see is liberty.
(18:17):
If Liberty has a desiccationlabel, it will be a really,
really nice thing, because itdoes work really well on those
weeds, but unfortunately, itdoesn't have a desiccation. You
know, otherwise, it will beanother great tool for us to
have. So I think for corndesiccation, you hit a really
good point, at least. That's athat's basically butter and
(18:38):
bread for drone operators. Youknow, when I made my
presentation to the Midwestfolks, several of them have come
and asked me about, how can weprecisely spray bird cucumber?
Because, you know, unless youhave a total weed control
failure, they're at they'regoing to show up around the
field edges. There will be a fewlow, wet spots where it's always
(19:02):
weedy, that's where you're goingto see that type of weeds, you
know. So it's only going to showup on certain parts of the
field, or some of the fieldtypically struggle with weeds,
so they want to spray those areamore precisely with the draw.
And that workflow is fairlyeasy, because when corn dies
off, you know, when it's readyfor harvest. Anything green is
(19:25):
not your friend. Anything greenis supposed to be brown, you
know, that's all weeds, right?So we can draw a prescription
and make the drone to spraythose spots very precisely that
that's not difficult at all, aslong as you have a mapping
drone, you know. So we can, wecan spray the whole field, if we
have to. Or we can just spray afew acres where we see most of
(19:48):
the bird, cucumber and one gloryand and just desiccate it, you
know. But one thing we have seenin the past is, after we
desiccate those few spots withplenty of weeds, can. And then
the grower, for some reason,doesn't get back to harvest the
whole field on time. And thenthe rest of fields start to grow
with all kind of weeds, youknow, and that would be a
(20:10):
problem. So after desiccation,the farmers have to make a
timely effort to get a corn outof the field, otherwise it's
still going to eat up by theseweeds, again in a short period.
And also talking about corn weedmanagement, I know this might
may not apply to to the wholecountry, but you know, down
here, we still got plentygrowing degree days after corn
(20:33):
harvest in August, sometimes itcould be as long as the three
months. So something we want todo, and this has been done by
the drone operator in multiplestates is to spread cover crop
seeds before corn canopy givesup. All right, so we're hoping
these cover crop seeds cangerminate underneath the canopy.
(20:54):
Instead of allowing your Burcunumber, your pigweed or grasses
or morning gourd to germinate,we want the cover crops seeds to
germinate first and thennaturally compete against those
weeds. So they are so small andthey just stay underneath the
corn canopy, so they will notcompete against the corn for
water and nutrients. But when acorn dies off, when the sun gets
(21:17):
down, they start to take off.You know, they will utilize the
remaining water to utilizeremaining fertilizer instead of
being used used by the weeds. Socover crop utilize those
resources and grow, andhopefully they can actually
compete against the weeds. Andalso, it's a different way to
establish the cover crop wayearly, you know. And you can
(21:38):
also spread the seeds yourselfon some of the off shape fields,
this may not be suitable for thecrop dusters. So we're also
looking for that as apossibility to conquer this weed
infestation problem in lateseason in corn. Yeah,
Joe Ikley (21:53):
I was going to ask with the cover crop seed, and if
you've done enough work goingback to the propeller down wash
question, if that's actuallyhelpful in that situation,
helping get the cover crop seedto the ground and not caught up
in the canopy.
Steve Li (22:08):
Yes And also believe, if you have some significant
rainfall, let's just say one dayrained one or two inches. I
believe the rain eventually canwash the seeds down as well. But
desiccation can also be used insoybean, in cotton as well. In
cotton, we don't call itdesiccation, we'll call it
defoliation, but the purpose arekind of similar. You know, you
(22:30):
kill the plants and drop theleaves. Some of the folks also
try to desiccate a soybean withthe drones. You know, that
situation is a little bit different.
Alyssa Essman (22:40):
Yeah, it seems like that desiccation,
especially with that colordifference at the end of the
season, is a really good fit.What about I guess, where are we
at in terms of site specificmanagement earlier in the
season? Or is that somethingfolks are working on with maybe
more rapid identification, oranything like that?
Steve Li (22:58):
many people ask that question just because seeing
spray is a pretty big thing outthere for us, right? And my
growers also asked me thatquestion, Hey, can you do see
and spray thing with yourdrones? The answer is, depends
on how accurate you want to getand depends on what you want me
(23:18):
to spray. It's not a $700,000machine. So let's don't expect
it can do $700 thing, you know,because they only cost a
fraction of it, right? So whatwe can do and what we cannot do,
that's what everybody wants toknow from a non biased
perspective. So cn spray can seetiny weeds and be able to spray
(23:43):
individual weeds. All right, weall know that it works really
well. First, for some our groweralready adopted that technology.
The drones are not able to dothat, because if the drone turns
on the spray system on and off,it's gonna be almost like
umbrella shape of the spraydroplets coming down, right? So
(24:05):
just talking about the hardware,I'm not able to target
individual leads as precise asseen spray. The other issue,
which might be a bigger problem,is scene spray has all the
cameras on the boom, and theboom is only, you know, two,
three feet above the ground.Let's just say we're targeting
early application, you know, orweeds in small crops. If the
(24:30):
cameras are only positionedthree, four feet off the ground,
then you can see everything onthe ground. So clearly, right?
For me to spar spray thosereally patches to be able to see
them. I have to utilize the Maccontrols, because the same
workflow does not exist on spraydrill. Some people also ask,
(24:53):
Hey, can you put a camera on thespray draw and put some put your
computer, your graphic card.Your AI on the drone so we can
see the weeds trigger a decisionwhether to spray or not, and be
able to spray like that. I saidfrom engineering perspective,
well, I'm not an engineer, sodon't quote me on it, but from
(25:14):
the engineering perspective, andall the smart people I know
after working in drones for afew years, I believe if I need,
if I have the budget, you know,that's another problem. You
know, whether you have thebudget to do or not, if I have a
big budget, I can get a bunch ofsmart people in the room and
women can figure this out, youknow. So as a workflow, it
shouldn't be that difficult. Butthe issue is all the other
(25:37):
things you you have to figureout that come with it. You know,
for example, drones is not yourground sprayer. The biggest
trouble is payload. We cannothandle too much additional
payload or weight carrying witha drone. Second, the battery
life is a problem. All right,the more electronics you put on
a drone, the more battery isgonna burn, which means the
(25:58):
heavier the battery is gonnaget, which means the fewer
flying minutes I'm gonna have.So many people ask, how many?
How long? How many minutes thesedrones can fly? The answer is
usually not a very impressivenumber, maybe seven to eight
minutes. That's where we at all.Right, so you put all these
things on drone, reduce theflying time to four minutes. Now
(26:19):
it's literally just can't doanything for you, otherwise,
your risk can crash in thedrone. It may not even come back
and ran out of battery. Justcrash. So that's the issue of
putting the same C and spraysystem on the drone, you know,
and make it do the same thing.It just, I don't see a lot of
setting points there, you know,your field operation. So what we
(26:40):
play with was, the workflow weplay with is, is relying on
mapping drones to see where theweeds are, and then we get
everyone back, we processimages, or kind of figure out
where we need to spray, where wedon't need don't spray, or don't
have to spray, and then generatea prescription, and then export
(27:01):
a prescription to the drone, orI can export a prescription to a
regular John Deere sprayer. Aslong as the John Deere sprayer
has pulse width modulation orexact apply, I can make the John
Deere sprayer to spray with onlya few nozzles to hit the whip
patches here and there. That'snothing difficult either. And
then that's how we tackle thesespa spraying or site specific
(27:25):
management, as you mentioned.The good thing is, you can still
do it in a fairly cheap way,using the equipment we have now.
But the drawback is it does taketime. So you have to map the
draw. You have to send out a Macand drone map the field, analyze
images, generate prescription,upload to your machine, so we
(27:46):
can do it. So that does takesome time, not terribly long,
but still not as fast as scenespray. The other issue is I
won't be as accurate as the CNsquare. I can spray some
patches, but I can't targetindividual weeds, and I have
seen that happen before, allright, so, for example, some of
(28:06):
the Pinot fields, I test theworkflow. I can spray the edges
really well. I can spray some ofthe big patches in the field,
but as the spray don't flythrough the field, because I
have the 4k camera first personview, I can see some of the
weeds are just being missed,because I can't justify spraying
that grid with only one weedunit.
Alyssa Essman (28:27):
So so based on all of your experiences so far,
you've mentioned a couple ofthese, but could you kind of
walk us through some of thebenefits and drawbacks and the
risks associated with usingdrones in these ways.
Steve Li (28:42):
if your question are drawbacks or risk, I couldn't
think of too many, because thebenefits definitely outweigh the
drawbacks. That that has to bethe reason why we're seeing
rapid adoption all over theplace, you know. So if I have to
name a few drawbacks or risk, Iwould say drift. That's a big
(29:02):
one. And that's a big one we'reconcerned about. The last thing
I want to see is some 18 yearsold or reckless folks getting a
few drones with no license, withno insurance. That's another
sore subject in drone spraying,a lot of illegal operations, and
people spraying with no nothingyou know. So those people having
(29:24):
no insurance, no training, nopaperwork, start to spray
herbicides, had no clue whatthey were doing, not paying
attention to the setting, notpaying attention to weather
condition, spraying in 1520,mile per hour wind, doing a
herpes herbicide job and driftall over the place in summer, or
(29:45):
spraying illegal herbicide, sayyour list, or Dicamba herbicide
over the top on soybean orcotton, you know, which is a
clear violation of the federallabel and cause quite a bit of
damage. Around, ended up, don'thave insurance, don't have a
liability to pay, and then justleave really sour feeling, you
(30:09):
know, for the for the farmingcommunity in the whole area, you
know, so that that would be areally sad thing to see. And
also from a liabilityperspective, I have to say, even
you are a legal commercialoperator. You have license, you
have insurance, you are your youhave your passes, pesticide
applicator license andeverything if you apply purpose
(30:32):
i illegally, or any pesticideillegally and cause the trouble.
Let's just say in this case, youapply your list or Dicamba with
a drone and cause damage yourunderwriter, your insurance
underwriter, you know it doesn'tmatter which company you use,
they will not pay because thereis a clear documentation that
(30:52):
you violated the label or thelaw in the first place. That
basically, basically exoneratesyour insurance company from
paying any of your damage. Thisis why I said to a lot of visual
operators, because I do trainingfor, you know, for for them on
regular basis. Most of them havebeen to my training, you know,
(31:13):
multiple times in the past, Isaid this many times, don't feel
like somebody give you a bigjob, and that justified risking
yourself, your business, tospray something illegal, you
know, just for the profit,because if you messed up that
job, the consequences, you mightlose your whole business. You're
(31:35):
and you're still being hold aliable for the damage your cost,
you know, depends on how big ofmaster created. So that's a
pretty big risk. I want tomention to all the drone
operators. One of the otherthings
Alyssa Essman (31:50):
I think that comes up here that can be
confusing for folks is thelabeling aspect you mentioned.
Could you walk us through, Iguess, what to look for on a
label, and maybe what you seedown the road is any labeling
guidelines that might apply todrones?
Steve Li (32:06):
Sure, that is a great question. And also, I want to
appreciate our EPA office ofpesticide management for
allowing the drone operators toutilize the aerial label, at
least currently, you know,because our northern neighbor,
the PMRA, in Canada, does notallow drone spraying at all at
(32:27):
this stage, they finally openup, you know, their decision a
little bit, but it's going tohave to go through label by
label modification, and thinkabout how long that's going to
take, versus a generic approvalsuch as EPA gave us. So the
effort of creating dronededicated label has been there
(32:50):
for a few years, and I haveparticipated some of the
meetings with CropLife Americaand EPA on the initiative, but I
do want to say still gonna beyears away, maybe decades away
before we see it depends on howquickly the drones are being
adopted, depends on how manyacres they are being sprayed.
(33:13):
You know, as you all canimagine, if the drones are
spraying, if the drones arespraying more and more acres,
let's just say all the cropduster in the US combined spray
maybe 130 30 million acres.Let's just say, if all the
drones combined spray half ofthat, then I would expect this
initiative in EPA and among thethe chemical restaurants will go
(33:35):
a lot faster right now, thesedrones, all the drones in the
US, are spraying about 10million acres right now, based
on the latest survey conductedby America's spray room
coalition, I'm not surprised tosee if we can keep feeding the
market, keep growing the market.Nobody messed up big time, and
we don't have big changes inregular regulation, the numbers
(33:58):
of acres being sprayed willdouble probably every 12 to 24
months. So this exponentialstage still holds true. After
talking to many differentdealers, distributors and
operators, we all believe that.So we want to see the drone
label happen just because we'restill in the exponential growth
(34:20):
stage and more and morepesticides are being sprayed by
the drone, but there are somechallenges as well. For example,
the biggest one is what type oflanguage we need to include in
the drone label and what theywhat they are like. But what are
(34:40):
those languages we know the PPErequirement, the worker
protection requirement, is a bigone, because you're not spraying
the cab anymore, and we all havedrift on ourselves when we
spray. All right? Because as adrone operator, I want to stay
on the high ground. I want tostay on the. Ground, so I can
(35:00):
see what's going on. The lastthing you want to do is set, set
your base, set your trailer atthe bottom of the field, and
then as soon as the drone goesto the other side, and then you
lose signal, you lose signal,most likely means you're gonna
crash it, right? But higherground also can be downwind,
which is the problem, you know,which means we're spraying
ourselves at the same time. Sohow can we protect the worker,
(35:24):
the operator, the visualobserver? You know, that's that
has always been my question. Andalso, how can we ensure the
drift is managed? Because if youlook into the current aerial
label, there are things outthere. There are requirements
out there to help reducing thedrift. For example, with your
(35:46):
traditional crop dusting playsome other some of label
requirement may tell you thatyou cannot spray with more than
60% of the because the closeryou get to the edge of the wind
tip, the more turbulence yousee, the more drift you see, you
know, and also the drop, thesize requirement, I guess we're
(36:07):
working on it. Registrants areunderstanding more about the
drone as a two you know. Andhopefully, the more data we can
generate, the more efficacy,drift data, the only deposition
data, and all these data we cangenerate from academia, the
sooner we might be able to seethe future drone labels.
Alyssa Essman (36:30):
So you've you've provided some really great
information and context for alot of these things today. As we
wrap up here, could you give ussome final considerations and
recommendations for folks whoare looking to get into drone
applications or who are alreadyusing them,
Steve Li (36:47):
if I only, if I can only make one recommendation
that is be prepared, becauseyour application for part 137 is
going to take a while to becomea legal operator, so you do need
to prepare at least six to eightmonths just getting all your
certificates and the necessarypaperwork being processed. But
(37:11):
try everything you can to beillegal. Try everything you can
to operate with a liabilitycoverage. That's what we really
need for this industry,especially you try, you want to
spray commercially, you want tobe a custom applicator, then you
have to be legal and respect allthe rules and laws, even though
(37:31):
it may not always make sense,you know, it may. It may take a
long time, but that's what wereally need for the industry.
And then just try to learn asmuch as you can, because, as I
said something I told peoplelast year, doesn't even hold it
true this year of how quicklythings changes if you are not
(37:52):
type of the person payingattention to newer technology,
to new equipment, to newupdates, you just like to do the
same old thing over and overagain. And I will say ground
sprayer is a better fit for you.You know, you can still find
some 20 year old ground rigrunning out there that should be
your job instead of being adrone operator, because you're
(38:14):
learning something new everyday. You know, just just
repairing the drone, diagnosethe error message popping up on
the controller that can be ahuge part of field operation in
summer, because they do breakpretty costly. So BPO can be
willing to learn and be willingto try new things, and then also
(38:35):
this apply to your job as well,if anyone telling me, I'm so
happy to spring corn fungicide,which is the largest market for
every application, and I'll tellthem, I'll tell them right away
that your business probably notgoing to do too well down the
road. You have to think about,what else can you do? Because
there are so many opportunitiesout there. Well,
Alyssa Essman (38:57):
we really appreciate you being here with
us today. Dr Li, you've given usa lot to think about for this
topic before we say goodbye. Canyou give us maybe any lab
websites or social media thatyou may have where folks can
find more information from you
Steve Li (39:13):
sure most of the drone operators on Facebook. If you
ask me, why that is, that is thecase. I don't know. It's just
the way it is. Maybe theFacebook is the best platform to
provide mutual communication.People can post pictures and
videos and be able to write afairly long post if they need
(39:36):
to, you know? So that's just howit started. There are several
spray drone groups on Facebook,there are that are highly useful
and helpful for the newoperators. You know, I I created
one three years ago. It's calledagricultural drones for the
United States. And also, there'sanother one run by agrispray.
(40:00):
Room called ag spray rooms ofNorth America, both are pretty
good, and we try to remove thecontent and keep it as clean as
possible. Because, you know, twoyears ago, we had so many
scammers, internationalscammers, trying to scam people
almost on daily basis. We prettymuch kicked all of them out and
eradicated those. And also wetry to keep the sales ads out,
(40:25):
you know, and make make ituseful for people's time. And
then I'm also hosting thelargest spray drone event, which
is called the spray drone EndUser Conference, is happening
later this month in Mobile,Alabama. So this year we are
(40:45):
getting a whole conventioncenter for us. So only after
three years, you know, now we'reso big that we need a convention
center for the events. You know,registration has exceeded 500
people, so I'm hoping probably400 in person at the end, you
know, and with also with remoteoptions. So if you cannot join
(41:06):
the event in person, you canregister remote and be able to
access the conference on Zoom.And also the recording will be
available for all participants,you know. But of course, we
would like to see you in mobileif you can make the trip
Alyssa Essman (41:25):
Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us.
Dr Li and to the listeners, wehope you'll tune in next week to
the War Against Weeds podcast.
Thanks for tuning in. Just areminder, you can find this and
other podcasts and resources onthe crop protection network.
(41:46):
This network has a host ofinformation from extension
programs across the US about allthings pest management. We hope
to catch you next week on thewar against weeds Podcast.
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