June 23, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode of the We Are PoWEr Podcast, we sit down with Gail Hall, Director of Operational Excellence, and Emma Griffin, Group Chief Security Officer at Royal London - two powerhouse leaders with stories that move from bars to boardrooms, and everything in between.
We also explore Royal London’s commitment to empowering others, including their brilliant partnership with our Mentor of the Year category at the 2025 #NPWAwards.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:49 Meet This Week's Guests: The Royal London Massive
01:49 Career Journeys: From Bars to Boardrooms
02:59 Understanding Roles at Royal London
08:33 Leadership and Diversity in the Workplace
14:26 Personal Stories and Career Advice
18:27 Empowering Women in Tech and Beyond
21:54 Fun Facts and Final Thoughts
Find out more about We Are PoWEr here. 💫
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power
podcast.
If this is your first time here, the we Are Power podcast is
the podcast for you, your careerand your life.
We release an episode everysingle Monday with listeners in
over 60 countries worldwide,where you'll hear personal life
stories, top-notch industryadvice and key leadership
insight from amazing role models.
(00:21):
As we Are Power is the umbrellabrand to Northern Power Women
Awards, which celebrateshundreds of female role models
and advocates every year.
This is where you can hearstories from all of our awards
alumni and stay up to date witheverything.
Mpw Awards and we Are PowerHello, hello and welcome to the
(00:48):
we Are Power podcast.
Every week, I'm joined by themost amazing guests.
This week, I have the RoyalLondon Massive in the podcast
studio.
Emma and Gail.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Now tell us about your role.
What do you do?
Oh, oh well, I feel like I'mjack of all trades, master of
none in my role.
Um, so my my official roletitle is director of operational
excellence, but what thatreally means is that I lead
teams that support all the othergreat teams at Royal London and
customer services and to enablethem to be brilliant for
customers, and I also have thepleasure of being the sponsor of
our diversity and inclusionplan, which is how we made the
(01:27):
connection with you.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And we are very grateful and really delighted
that you've come on board as oneof our fantastic partners.
We are power massive.
Welcome.
Tell us about you.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Hi, I'm Emma Griffin.
My job title is I'm Group ChiefSecurity Officer, so my job is
to protect Royal London'ssystems, people and customer
data.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Now it's safe to say that neither of you started in
this path, because I alwaysthink, is how do you describe
nobody ever has in a onestraight linear path?
You don't go to school or gointo further or higher education
or wherever you go,apprenticeship, and then
suddenly go, I'm going to go tobe a Royal London person.
You didn't start there, did you?
Neither of you started there,gail.
No, did you start behind a?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
bar, well a bar I am, and in front of a bar.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I'm behind the bar kitchens.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, so, matt, I did um a lot of barmaid and
waitress and, like you know,emma and I's um path is really,
really different.
Um, because I've actually beenat Royal Inns for 27 years, my
entire professional workingcareer and I joined it was
Scottish Life at the time, whichwas a mutual in Edinburgh, and
I joined it simply because I'dleft university with a business
(02:38):
degree, hadn't quite figured outwhat I wanted to do yet, and
decided I should probably get abit more than barmaid and
waitress and experience, and soI joined Scottish Life and I
loved it and I have never leftbecause I still love it and you
still don't know what you wantto do now, yeah, other than be
great for our customers becausethat's that's genuinely what I
(02:58):
love about my job and tell uswhat Royal London is, yeah, so
Royal London provides pensionsand savings investments and also
protection for customers.
So protection is when you needto have some sort of investment
for life shocks, you know solike life insurance or critical
illness cover, and all of us aregoing to need a pension in the
future.
So we provide that.
And then the customer servicearea that I work in we serve
(03:20):
those customers and look aftertheir plans for them, and what
do you love most about your job,having been there 27 years?
So I love the difference that wecan make because if I think
about something like protectionright, there's a real emotional
driver to that product andpension's quite different.
You have pension because youknow when you stop working
(03:40):
you're going to need an incomein the future.
Protection you take it out forsomething that's potentially
going to go horribly wrong.
You know and you don't reallywant to have to use your
protection plan.
You want to have to use yourpension plan.
You don't really want to haveto use your protection plan
because it means something bad'shappened.
You've had quite a life shock.
So I think we have real socialimpact, and that's what I love
about it and I think that'salways challenging, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
you know, careers information is always
challenging.
As you're, you're growing upand as our kids and extended
families they're growing up,it's hard to signpost where to
go because you, you know how,would you know what that did?
And you actually had aninteresting path, didn't you,
emma?
Because one you're not 27 yearsin, you're less than a year in,
aren't you to?
To Royal London, but youstarted, or you part of your
(04:23):
sort of life adventure?
Career adventure was inambulance service, yes.
So how join the dots, please?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
and I also didn't know what I wanted to be when I
was a grown-up.
So, um, I was supposed to go touniversity and, uh, do one of
many sort of engineering andsort of science related um
courses, and I chickened out twoweeks before I was supposed to
go because I didn't really knowwhat to do and ended up by
accident at London AmbulanceService, worked my way up there
(04:52):
and became an ambulancecontroller, so I was responsible
for deciding which ambulanceswent where for North West London
, you know, with Heathrow andWembley Stadium.
Oh, not busy then.
Yeah, it was generally quitebusy, but it's where I sort of
learned sort of crisis andincident management and how to
do that From there got into ITand that was.
(05:12):
And then I've spent sort ofnearly 30 years in a variety of
different IT roles of movingaround sort of in infrastructure
and then turned to the darkside of security and not look
back.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
But that's what I think is quite interesting about
us, right?
So we're totally differentbackgrounds and we started off
on something totally different,but if you just think about that
, the things that Emma learnedright in the start of that are
so valuable in the role that shedoes now in terms of incident
management and barmaid andwaitressing.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Incident management Proper customer service skills
there.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
It's all transferable skills, all transferable stuff.
That's then kind of stood thetest of time for us in our
career.
I think that's really importantand there'll be people
listening or watching, you know,and I'm thinking, oh, I'm at
that point where I've done this,but I need to go there, but I
don't know how to go there.
What was that direction forboth of you?
How did you go from hospitality, which is amazing industry I
think it's an amazing place.
98% of us work in hospitalityat some point in our careers and
(06:08):
in emergency services.
What was the?
What was the?
What was the moment that went?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
for you, for me, um, my appendix burst at work one
day and uh, I was rushed tohospital and uh, I had my
appendix out and was sent homeand was told okay, you've got to
rest up for a month and I'm notvery good at sitting still and
doing nothing.
And I kept getting up andtrying to do housework.
So my partner now husbandworked in tech so he'd set me a
(06:35):
few challenges.
So he took a computer apart andput it in a tea tray and said
don't get out of bed.
Treat it as a jigsaw puzzle andsee if you can get it.
Put it back together.
So I treat it as a jigsaw puzzleand see if you can get it, put
it back together.
So I built the computer andthen the next day he said oh,
there's some seed like somefloppy disks, see if you can
work out how that works.
And so I started doing bits andbobs, just picking up books
from his, his bookshelf.
And when my sick leave hadfinished he said you're actually
(06:57):
really good at this, I thinkyou should give it a go.
And so I bravely went back towork and resigned and thought
I'm going to start a career intechnology, very naively and
terrified and, yeah, powered bya makeshift jigsaw and
appendicitis, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I should have gone first.
Mine's as nobler than that,simone.
Honestly, that's amazing.
Mine's completely different.
I'm probably quite traditionalin that.
At the point when I leftuniversity all those years ago
Surely not At my age Edinburghwas the hub of financial
services.
So there's a place called StAndrew's Square and that's where
all the head offices were.
(07:35):
So your careers were quiteoften banking or financial
services.
So I applied to a few andactually I joined Scottish Life
because of the feel I got.
I got offered for anothercompany on the same.
I joined Scottish Life becauseof the feel I got.
I got offered for anothercompany on the same day, but
Scottish Life was quite smalland it felt like I had a family
feel to it and that's actuallywhat attracted me to it.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And that's really important.
You said probably, and, as yousay, it wasn't very many years
ago, but you know you talk aboutthe family feel.
Is that what we now refer to aslike the culture you know we
talk about?
Should we live by our gut likethat sometimes?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
absolutely, um, and I think you know those who are
listening, I wouldn't stressabout the fact that you don't
want.
You don't know what you want todo, because neither of us knew
what we wanted to do and yetwe've had, you know, very
different but great careers andrewarding careers, um, and you
can make those things work,whether you've got a family or
or not, and in differentcultures and different
organisations.
You know, I think you shouldkind of embrace it and remind
(08:28):
yourself it's kind of okay andyou'll figure it out on the way
100%.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I couldn't agree more and it's been very much a part
of some of your role being verymale-dominated and as a leader
in this final services sector,how have you?
What's been your approach,what's been the Gail approach to
leadership sector?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
how have you?
What's been your approach?
What's been the the galeapproach to leadership?
Yeah, so I'm quite hands-on.
I'm a very much a people person, so I love being around people,
which is why I'm still incustomer services after all this
time because it's such apeople-based environment.
I'm and an organization likeroyal london we're a mutual, so
what that means is we're ownedby our members and our customers
rather than shareholders, um,so that's why there's a sort of
real family value based approach.
(09:07):
Um, and it's that value-basedapproach that's kind of helped
me navigate, because in customerservices there are a lot of
females and actually we have areally good ratio from a
diversity perspective, but lessso at the senior manager level.
Um, and that's what em and Iwere talking about.
You know that people willtraditionally view customer
services as having quite a lotof females in there, but at
Leadership Rule it's a lot ofmales and for a long time I've
(09:29):
been the only female on theleadership team and how I've
navigated that has actually beenaround making connections with
people.
So kind of using that love ofpeople and being really
interested in people to makeconnections and to learn from
them and get them to be myallies and my advocates, um, and
actually I am the leader I amtoday because of a lot of the
(09:51):
men that I've worked with um,because they've kind of taught
me what to do and what not to do, because of me using them as
role models 100% is that.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's whether that's mentorship, sponsorship,
advocacy or just someone havingyour back right, absolutely,
absolutely.
And what about yourself?
What's been your approach tosort of leadership, if you've
kind of gone through, becauseyou know, like we said, that
gail said here that the thenumbers are very low, aren't
they at a senior female level,so what has been your?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
leadership.
In all honesty, it's changedover time.
So earlier on in my career um,there was I had this wrong
impression that I had to look acertain way, be a certain way,
blend in, mimic the many menthat were around me in
leadership roles and I try andsort of not stand out as being
female and different and littleand squeaky, and so I try and
(10:38):
emulate that style and it tookme some time to have the
confidence to be okay with beingdifferent and and being okay
with having my style and gettingexcited, getting squeaky and
faster as I get excited aboutsomething, and then that's okay,
it's just me.
And so I've changed it to justbring a bit of a more authentic
leadership and I think that'sreally important.
(10:59):
As you, you go up the stack andand it helps advertise the
importance of diversity is thatif we want that diverse
workforce, we've got to act itand live it.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, you've got to be real.
You haven't, you.
There's no point trying to be.
It's not a cookie-cutter model.
And you were saying that you'vecome into this environment
because it had that family feel,or it had that nice vibe.
So surely that enables you tobe you right, doesn't it Exactly
?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
and that enables you to be you right, doesn't it
Exactly?
And I think that's what's quitespecial about Royal London and
everybody that joins RoyalLondon.
That's one of the first thingsthey'll say when I ask them how
are you finding it in theirfirst week or their first month?
And as senior leaders, we hostthe induction programmes as well
, so we'll host them there everythree months, and even for the
people who've then been therethree months, it's the first
(11:47):
thing they always talk about ispeople feel that they can be
themselves at Royal London andthat you're encouraged to um, it
is very much quite an inclusiveworkplace.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Naturally, um, and what?
How did you ensure that theremust have been parts of this 27
year career adventure, that?
How did you make sure yourvoice was heard and your, your,
real, you was, was, was there atthe table so, um, I, my number
one value as as an individual,is authenticity.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So, um, I, I have to be myself.
So actually I was quitedifferent to Emma that I was a
bit more naturally outspoken,not in a sort of confrontational
way, but just I find it hardnot to kind of challenge
something or share my view.
If it's something I feel quitestrongly about, um, and I did, I
did have to make sure I reallyfocused on that in the
(12:34):
leadership meetings where I wasthe only sort of female voice,
because I did have a verydifferent view.
Um, and and it is kind of scaryat first when you do it, but I
still remember the time when Ireally challenged my boss at the
time on something that he wasdoing and his response when I
challenged was quite personalback to me, not about me, it was
actually about my previous bosswho had actually been a female,
(12:56):
and you know he made thiscomment about well, ding dong,
the witch is dead.
I'm here now and I just rememberthinking I need to actually
show that that's not OK.
So, even though there's noother females in the room,
that's not the value we havehere at Royal London, it's
inclusive space, and he meantnothing by it in that way, it
(13:18):
was one of those throwawaystatements in the moment, and so
I just challenged him on it,and there was two things for me.
It was one that's kind of notokay to use a term like you know
, witch and the other big thingfor me was well, did you ever
stop to think that the reasonI'm challenging you is because
that's what I think is the rightthing to do, not because of we
were all yes people to ourprevious manager.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So I felt it was undervaluing my opinion, um, and
so felt the need to speak out100%.
And there'll be again.
There'll be people listeningout there and watching out there
.
I've gone, you know what, I'vehad that situation today and I
should have called it out, orwant to call it out.
What advice would you give tothat young woman or young young
guy who's going?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
oh, it's not cool yeah, I think it's take the deep
breath, and I think Emma'spoint about be your authentic
self is really important.
So if you're not comfortablecalling it out in a in a public
forum when other people are away, find a way to do it that's
suitable for you.
So maybe ask to have a chatwith them afterwards, because
I've done that as well, notbecause I've not felt
comfortable, but because I knewhow they might feel, um, if I
(14:18):
was to do that in in front ofother people, um, so I think
it's kind of adapt and read youraudience, but also do something
that works for you.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
What's been the toughest thing for you as you've
navigated these differentcareers and sectors and shifted
those different roles Becausewe've talked, haven't we is that
both your experiences have beentotally transferable.
But what have you learned aboutthe shift, or the pivot as we
say?
Do we still say pivot, no?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
For me it's self-confidence At each of these
times.
I've had to make sometimes somebig, scary steps and I'm
naturally someone who doubtsmyself.
It's always that bit ofimposter syndrome Might seem
confident to other people butinside you know not necessarily
so much.
So it's having that confidenceto do that and being okay that
(15:09):
sometimes you have to beuncomfortable and that you have
to take a leap and you might.
it might be a big step, butthat's okay, you'll get there
and you generally do so.
Yes, I think having thatself-confidence and then you
know, um, so, yes, I thinkhaving that self-confidence and
then you know knowing when toask for help and, as I say again
, that's okay, it's not weaknessand you know getting a help and
(15:30):
advice is really important andI think that help, advice,
guidance, mentorship,sponsorship, advocacy, whatever,
whatever we want to call it,who are those people, for both
of you, that have either helped,guided um, directed, directed
you along your way?
For me a real mixture, as I say.
My husband got me intotechnology and gave me the
(15:50):
confidence and the oomph to goand do it and make that leap of
some great managers, both menand women, who've given me the
confidence to take theopportunity, take the change,
step sideways, step backwards,take a leap forward, and offered
(16:11):
advice, and I think some of themore pertinent ones was people
giving you advice on thatauthenticity and it's okay to be
you.
You don't have to do it the waythe person who was in that role
before did it.
So it's okay to be you.
You don't have to do it likethe way the person who was in
that role before did it, youknow.
So it's okay to be squeaky andlittle and you know.
I don't.
I'm not like your averagesecurity officer, um, and that's
(16:31):
okay yeah, what does averagelook like, right you?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
know who says what it should look like exactly, and
you were absolutely not average,right, um, so mine is like so
I've got a whole range.
Actually I'm lucky to have awhole range.
One of them is the individual Italked about where I had to
challenge, I would say in theend, and actually quite quickly
after that, he became one of mybiggest allies, really
(16:55):
championed me, kind of reallypushed me.
The thing is I learned mostabout him was how to influence
and gain support from others ata very senior level and, in
particular, the power of usingdata to do that.
I was quite because I'd been inthe organization a long time.
You know I was trying toinfluence almost trading on my
reputation at Royal London andyou know my track record rather
(17:18):
than actually using facts, andthat worked well for the other
people who'd also been there along time, um, but wouldn't
really work for a lot of othersso that's, I really learned a
lot of good disciplines and thatkind of stuff and also about
really empowering people toreally solve problems and come
up with solutions.
Um, so he was definitelyactually one of them, and you
(17:38):
know, I've had countless othersand they've definitely been the
ones who've like you it's exactsame as em actually the people
that have kind of taught me tobelieve in myself.
Yeah, because we all haveself-confidence issues, right,
we all have the impostersyndrome, and they've kind of
pushed you and stretched you andchallenged you and made it safe
for you to do that andsometimes it's about unlocking
you that authentic.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It's not like it's making you something.
You're someone, you're not.
It is that's you inside, um,and the great thing around
working for an organization likerural london is you have
different campaigns anddifferent you know sort of real
things that you can champion,and I know ed and I, which is is
really being challenged in theworld right now.
Let's face it but there's.
there's something reallyimportant that I know is this
(18:21):
means a lot to you being thesponsor, doesn't it of this?
And what are you most proud ofof what you're doing?
Because you've got so manydifferent campaigns around tech
Menopals I love that name.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I need a Menopal, not going to lie.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But you've got the group, but then you've got
places for everyone.
I think that's really importantwhen it comes to groups.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
We do.
So I talk about it at a coupleof levels.
I'm proud on Royal London'sbehalf of the networks that
we've built up and the great jobthat those people do that run
the networks.
You know they do this on top oftheir job to really make it an
inclusive space and really tohelp educate people on some of
the challenges that a lot ofpeople will think to themselves
(19:02):
well, those things don't existtoday.
You know gender equality is notan issue anymore, but actually
there's so much that they dofrom an awareness thing and
bringing people together andconnecting on that.
So really proud of all thatstuff Locally in terms of the
function that Emma and I work inand the plan that I sponsor,
because we've got what?
About 2,500 of the employees atRoyal Undergroups more than half
(19:24):
, and it's so broad.
Our function.
We've got tech and security,we've got change and they have
their own different challengesaround gender attraction.
And then you've got customerservice and operations,
workplace procurement anddigital, and the bit that I love
about our plan is we kept itsimple.
There was a lot in it and I'mreally proud of the focus that
(19:44):
the team have had on attractingtalent as well as retaining and
upskilling.
So one of our big challenges hasactually been about attracting
talent and getting the rightpool, and you should always put
the right person for the role in.
You shouldn't let your targetsaround you and I drive who gets
the role.
But actually, if you'restruggling to get a diverse pool
(20:06):
, then you're always going tohave a challenge and then not
have a diverse team, and sothat's what a lot of our focus
has been on.
So the stuff that we've beendoing in terms of like women in
tech events, running STEMsessions, that the team have all
done, the connections we'vestarted to build up with
yourselves are the things I'mreally proud of and the stuff
that I see that we can leveragethat then has a snowball effect
(20:28):
on other stuff, because itdoesn't just help attract talent
, can leverage, it then has asnowball effect and other stuff
because it doesn't just helpattract talent.
If you take um, people likeshika that kind of connected us
with you.
Then she was presenting at oneof your um events recently.
That's a great, you knowopportunity for her in terms of
her own career growth andpersonal development everyone
can.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I think that's one of our big passions is giving
people a platform, the stage,and that's what we're really
excited about the partnershipand where it can go, and just
sometimes be careful what youwish for because these
partnerships start, start andthen it becomes we are that
independent, independentorganization.
Um, how does this sort offurther your wider ambitions
around, ed and I sort of thepartnership with ourselves and
(21:06):
your and I know you've got big,bold ambitions around that
attraction piece as well.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
So I think it furthers our ambition in terms
of this.
It's building up this connectedcommunity, I think, because I
think when you've got lots ofpeople that are connecting on
topics that they all feelpassionate about, then I think
that the power and the impactcan be so much greater.
And one of the things I thinkwe always need to be mindful of
(21:34):
is constant learning.
You know, things change, theworld is continually changing,
so having those connectionsmeans that we can be sharing but
also learning best practice andreally leveraging that.
So I think it really helps usin terms of the ambition,
because it gives us a broaderreach than if we were just
looking locally and hopefullymeans we can have a broader
impact with Royal London if wewere just looking locally, and
hopefully means we can have abroader impact with Royal London
.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
100% and is amplifying those conversations.
A couple of fun facts before weleave you, emma, of course, as
well as putting together sort ofjigsaw pieces during your
appendix that were not jigsawpieces, but you're a black belt
right.
What has that taught you mostabout yourself in leadership and
resilience terms?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I think it's that.
I think you used the right word.
Resilience is that it doesn'tmatter how many times you get
knocked down.
It's how many times you get up,that's important.
Feel a song in that, coming upEvery time you get challenged,
you know, pick yourself up,carry on and be humble and be
respectful.
And so, yeah, and train hard,work hard.
Whatever you do throughout mycareer has been about, you know,
(22:34):
you've got to be tenacious,you've got to push, you've got
to work hard and then you, youget the reward.
And so, yeah, it's kind of oneof those transferable skills
things and gail a chef on theside.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Oh, I love a bit of what is your most favorite.
Well, don't we all right?
Uh, what's your dish of choicefor you and your daughter?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
because you like cooking together, yeah, so my
daughter's seven um and she'sdefinitely got a bit of a
passion for making pizza with meand from scrap.
So she likes to make the doughand we've kind of gone from me
doing quite a lot of it to now.
You know I'm literally there ina supervisory capacity to make
sure she doesn't fall off step.
So pizza, um would be the dishof choice.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
And final, final question what are your
superpowers?
That's a toughie, isn't it?
Just a throw in at the end,that is.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I don't think I've ever thought of myself having a
superpower.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Everyone's got a superpower.
I think I'm calm, underpressure, I think there's not a
lot that rattles me.
So people quite often say youknow, a bit swan-like Feet might
be going really crazy at thebottom, but it doesn't show when
it, when it needs yeah, I thinkmine might be positivity.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yeah, I need to watch .
It's not annoyingly positive no, it's um but yeah, mine would
be positivity and that it's thatalways finding the silver
lining and helping others too aswell look at that between you
what a dream team.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You've got the crisis management, you've got the
service approach and you've gotthe swan like peddling, like
crazy.
We are so excited to be workingwith you at Royal London.
Uh, emmering Gell, I'm so gladthat you've joined us on the
podcast today.
Thank you so much for joiningus and we look forward to our
adventures together.
Subscribe on YouTube, apple,amazon Music, spotify or
(24:11):
wherever you get your podcasts.
Leave us a review or follow uson socials.
We are Power, underscore net onInsta, tiktok and Twitter.
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Power on YouTube.
Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power
podcast.
If this is your first time here, the we Are Power podcast is
the podcast for you, your careerand your life.
We release an episode everysingle Monday with listeners in
over 60 countries worldwide,where you'll hear personal life
stories, top-notch industryadvice and key leadership
insight from amazing role models.
(00:21):
As we Are Power is the umbrellabrand to Northern Power Women
Awards, which celebrateshundreds of female role models
and advocates every year.
This is where you can hearstories from all of our awards
alumni and stay up to date witheverything.
Mpw Awards and we Are PowerHello, hello and welcome to the
(00:48):
we Are Power podcast.
Every week, I'm joined by themost amazing guests.
This week, I have the RoyalLondon Massive in the podcast
studio.
Emma and Gail.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Now tell us about your role.
What do you do?
Oh, oh well, I feel like I'mjack of all trades, master of
none in my role.
Um, so my my official roletitle is director of operational
excellence, but what thatreally means is that I lead
teams that support all the othergreat teams at Royal London and
customer services and to enablethem to be brilliant for
customers, and I also have thepleasure of being the sponsor of
our diversity and inclusionplan, which is how we made the
(01:27):
connection with you.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And we are very grateful and really delighted
that you've come on board as oneof our fantastic partners.
We are power massive.
Welcome.
Tell us about you.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Hi, I'm Emma Griffin.
My job title is I'm Group ChiefSecurity Officer, so my job is
to protect Royal London'ssystems, people and customer
data.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Now it's safe to say that neither of you started in
this path, because I alwaysthink, is how do you describe
nobody ever has in a onestraight linear path?
You don't go to school or gointo further or higher education
or wherever you go,apprenticeship, and then
suddenly go, I'm going to go tobe a Royal London person.
You didn't start there, did you?
Neither of you started there,gail.
No, did you start behind a?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
bar, well a bar I am, and in front of a bar.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I'm behind the bar kitchens.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, so, matt, I did um a lot of barmaid and
waitress and, like you know,emma and I's um path is really,
really different.
Um, because I've actually beenat Royal Inns for 27 years, my
entire professional workingcareer and I joined it was
Scottish Life at the time, whichwas a mutual in Edinburgh, and
I joined it simply because I'dleft university with a business
(02:38):
degree, hadn't quite figured outwhat I wanted to do yet, and
decided I should probably get abit more than barmaid and
waitress and experience, and soI joined Scottish Life and I
loved it and I have never leftbecause I still love it and you
still don't know what you wantto do now, yeah, other than be
great for our customers becausethat's that's genuinely what I
(02:58):
love about my job and tell uswhat Royal London is, yeah, so
Royal London provides pensionsand savings investments and also
protection for customers.
So protection is when you needto have some sort of investment
for life shocks, you know solike life insurance or critical
illness cover, and all of us aregoing to need a pension in the
future.
So we provide that.
And then the customer servicearea that I work in we serve
(03:20):
those customers and look aftertheir plans for them, and what
do you love most about your job,having been there 27 years?
So I love the difference that wecan make because if I think
about something like protectionright, there's a real emotional
driver to that product andpension's quite different.
You have pension because youknow when you stop working
(03:40):
you're going to need an incomein the future.
Protection you take it out forsomething that's potentially
going to go horribly wrong.
You know and you don't reallywant to have to use your
protection plan.
You want to have to use yourpension plan.
You don't really want to haveto use your protection plan
because it means something bad'shappened.
You've had quite a life shock.
So I think we have real socialimpact, and that's what I love
about it and I think that'salways challenging, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
you know, careers information is always
challenging.
As you're, you're growing upand as our kids and extended
families they're growing up,it's hard to signpost where to
go because you, you know how,would you know what that did?
And you actually had aninteresting path, didn't you,
emma?
Because one you're not 27 yearsin, you're less than a year in,
aren't you to?
To Royal London, but youstarted, or you part of your
(04:23):
sort of life adventure?
Career adventure was inambulance service, yes.
So how join the dots, please?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
and I also didn't know what I wanted to be when I
was a grown-up.
So, um, I was supposed to go touniversity and, uh, do one of
many sort of engineering andsort of science related um
courses, and I chickened out twoweeks before I was supposed to
go because I didn't really knowwhat to do and ended up by
accident at London AmbulanceService, worked my way up there
(04:52):
and became an ambulancecontroller, so I was responsible
for deciding which ambulanceswent where for North West London
, you know, with Heathrow andWembley Stadium.
Oh, not busy then.
Yeah, it was generally quitebusy, but it's where I sort of
learned sort of crisis andincident management and how to
do that From there got into ITand that was.
(05:12):
And then I've spent sort ofnearly 30 years in a variety of
different IT roles of movingaround sort of in infrastructure
and then turned to the darkside of security and not look
back.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
But that's what I think is quite interesting about
us, right?
So we're totally differentbackgrounds and we started off
on something totally different,but if you just think about that
, the things that Emma learnedright in the start of that are
so valuable in the role that shedoes now in terms of incident
management and barmaid andwaitressing.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Incident management Proper customer service skills
there.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
It's all transferable skills, all transferable stuff.
That's then kind of stood thetest of time for us in our
career.
I think that's really importantand there'll be people
listening or watching, you know,and I'm thinking, oh, I'm at
that point where I've done this,but I need to go there, but I
don't know how to go there.
What was that direction forboth of you?
How did you go from hospitality, which is amazing industry I
think it's an amazing place.
98% of us work in hospitalityat some point in our careers and
(06:08):
in emergency services.
What was the?
What was the?
What was the moment that went?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
for you, for me, um, my appendix burst at work one
day and uh, I was rushed tohospital and uh, I had my
appendix out and was sent homeand was told okay, you've got to
rest up for a month and I'm notvery good at sitting still and
doing nothing.
And I kept getting up andtrying to do housework.
So my partner now husbandworked in tech so he'd set me a
(06:35):
few challenges.
So he took a computer apart andput it in a tea tray and said
don't get out of bed.
Treat it as a jigsaw puzzle andsee if you can get it.
Put it back together.
So I treat it as a jigsaw puzzleand see if you can get it, put
it back together.
So I built the computer andthen the next day he said oh,
there's some seed like somefloppy disks, see if you can
work out how that works.
And so I started doing bits andbobs, just picking up books
from his, his bookshelf.
And when my sick leave hadfinished he said you're actually
(06:57):
really good at this, I thinkyou should give it a go.
And so I bravely went back towork and resigned and thought
I'm going to start a career intechnology, very naively and
terrified and, yeah, powered bya makeshift jigsaw and
appendicitis, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I should have gone first.
Mine's as nobler than that,simone.
Honestly, that's amazing.
Mine's completely different.
I'm probably quite traditionalin that.
At the point when I leftuniversity all those years ago
Surely not At my age Edinburghwas the hub of financial
services.
So there's a place called StAndrew's Square and that's where
all the head offices were.
(07:35):
So your careers were quiteoften banking or financial
services.
So I applied to a few andactually I joined Scottish Life
because of the feel I got.
I got offered for anothercompany on the same.
I joined Scottish Life becauseof the feel I got.
I got offered for anothercompany on the same day, but
Scottish Life was quite smalland it felt like I had a family
feel to it and that's actuallywhat attracted me to it.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And that's really important.
You said probably, and, as yousay, it wasn't very many years
ago, but you know you talk aboutthe family feel.
Is that what we now refer to aslike the culture you know we
talk about?
Should we live by our gut likethat sometimes?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
absolutely, um, and I think you know those who are
listening, I wouldn't stressabout the fact that you don't
want.
You don't know what you want todo, because neither of us knew
what we wanted to do and yetwe've had, you know, very
different but great careers andrewarding careers, um, and you
can make those things work,whether you've got a family or
or not, and in differentcultures and different
organisations.
You know, I think you shouldkind of embrace it and remind
(08:28):
yourself it's kind of okay andyou'll figure it out on the way
100%.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I couldn't agree more and it's been very much a part
of some of your role being verymale-dominated and as a leader
in this final services sector,how have you?
What's been your approach,what's been the Gail approach to
leadership sector?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
how have you?
What's been your approach?
What's been the the galeapproach to leadership?
Yeah, so I'm quite hands-on.
I'm a very much a people person, so I love being around people,
which is why I'm still incustomer services after all this
time because it's such apeople-based environment.
I'm and an organization likeroyal london we're a mutual, so
what that means is we're ownedby our members and our customers
rather than shareholders, um,so that's why there's a sort of
real family value based approach.
(09:07):
Um, and it's that value-basedapproach that's kind of helped
me navigate, because in customerservices there are a lot of
females and actually we have areally good ratio from a
diversity perspective, but lessso at the senior manager level.
Um, and that's what em and Iwere talking about.
You know that people willtraditionally view customer
services as having quite a lotof females in there, but at
Leadership Rule it's a lot ofmales and for a long time I've
(09:29):
been the only female on theleadership team and how I've
navigated that has actually beenaround making connections with
people.
So kind of using that love ofpeople and being really
interested in people to makeconnections and to learn from
them and get them to be myallies and my advocates, um, and
actually I am the leader I amtoday because of a lot of the
(09:51):
men that I've worked with um,because they've kind of taught
me what to do and what not to do, because of me using them as
role models 100% is that.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's whether that's mentorship, sponsorship,
advocacy or just someone havingyour back right, absolutely,
absolutely.
And what about yourself?
What's been your approach tosort of leadership, if you've
kind of gone through, becauseyou know, like we said, that
gail said here that the thenumbers are very low, aren't
they at a senior female level,so what has been your?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
leadership.
In all honesty, it's changedover time.
So earlier on in my career um,there was I had this wrong
impression that I had to look acertain way, be a certain way,
blend in, mimic the many menthat were around me in
leadership roles and I try andsort of not stand out as being
female and different and littleand squeaky, and so I try and
(10:38):
emulate that style and it tookme some time to have the
confidence to be okay with beingdifferent and and being okay
with having my style and gettingexcited, getting squeaky and
faster as I get excited aboutsomething, and then that's okay,
it's just me.
And so I've changed it to justbring a bit of a more authentic
leadership and I think that'sreally important.
(10:59):
As you, you go up the stack andand it helps advertise the
importance of diversity is thatif we want that diverse
workforce, we've got to act itand live it.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, you've got to be real.
You haven't, you.
There's no point trying to be.
It's not a cookie-cutter model.
And you were saying that you'vecome into this environment
because it had that family feel,or it had that nice vibe.
So surely that enables you tobe you right, doesn't it Exactly
?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
and that enables you to be you right, doesn't it
Exactly?
And I think that's what's quitespecial about Royal London and
everybody that joins RoyalLondon.
That's one of the first thingsthey'll say when I ask them how
are you finding it in theirfirst week or their first month?
And as senior leaders, we hostthe induction programmes as well
, so we'll host them there everythree months, and even for the
people who've then been therethree months, it's the first
(11:47):
thing they always talk about ispeople feel that they can be
themselves at Royal London andthat you're encouraged to um, it
is very much quite an inclusiveworkplace.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Naturally, um, and what?
How did you ensure that theremust have been parts of this 27
year career adventure, that?
How did you make sure yourvoice was heard and your, your,
real, you was, was, was there atthe table so, um, I, my number
one value as as an individual,is authenticity.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So, um, I, I have to be myself.
So actually I was quitedifferent to Emma that I was a
bit more naturally outspoken,not in a sort of confrontational
way, but just I find it hardnot to kind of challenge
something or share my view.
If it's something I feel quitestrongly about, um, and I did, I
did have to make sure I reallyfocused on that in the
(12:34):
leadership meetings where I wasthe only sort of female voice,
because I did have a verydifferent view.
Um, and and it is kind of scaryat first when you do it, but I
still remember the time when Ireally challenged my boss at the
time on something that he wasdoing and his response when I
challenged was quite personalback to me, not about me, it was
actually about my previous bosswho had actually been a female,
(12:56):
and you know he made thiscomment about well, ding dong,
the witch is dead.
I'm here now and I just rememberthinking I need to actually
show that that's not OK.
So, even though there's noother females in the room,
that's not the value we havehere at Royal London, it's
inclusive space, and he meantnothing by it in that way, it
(13:18):
was one of those throwawaystatements in the moment, and so
I just challenged him on it,and there was two things for me.
It was one that's kind of notokay to use a term like you know
, witch and the other big thingfor me was well, did you ever
stop to think that the reasonI'm challenging you is because
that's what I think is the rightthing to do, not because of we
were all yes people to ourprevious manager.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So I felt it was undervaluing my opinion, um, and
so felt the need to speak out100%.
And there'll be again.
There'll be people listeningout there and watching out there
.
I've gone, you know what, I'vehad that situation today and I
should have called it out, orwant to call it out.
What advice would you give tothat young woman or young young
guy who's going?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
oh, it's not cool yeah, I think it's take the deep
breath, and I think Emma'spoint about be your authentic
self is really important.
So if you're not comfortablecalling it out in a in a public
forum when other people are away, find a way to do it that's
suitable for you.
So maybe ask to have a chatwith them afterwards, because
I've done that as well, notbecause I've not felt
comfortable, but because I knewhow they might feel, um, if I
(14:18):
was to do that in in front ofother people, um, so I think
it's kind of adapt and read youraudience, but also do something
that works for you.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
What's been the toughest thing for you as you've
navigated these differentcareers and sectors and shifted
those different roles Becausewe've talked, haven't we is that
both your experiences have beentotally transferable.
But what have you learned aboutthe shift, or the pivot as we
say?
Do we still say pivot, no?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
For me it's self-confidence At each of these
times.
I've had to make sometimes somebig, scary steps and I'm
naturally someone who doubtsmyself.
It's always that bit ofimposter syndrome Might seem
confident to other people butinside you know not necessarily
so much.
So it's having that confidenceto do that and being okay that
(15:09):
sometimes you have to beuncomfortable and that you have
to take a leap and you might.
it might be a big step, butthat's okay, you'll get there
and you generally do so.
Yes, I think having thatself-confidence and then you
know, um, so, yes, I thinkhaving that self-confidence and
then you know knowing when toask for help and, as I say again
, that's okay, it's not weaknessand you know getting a help and
(15:30):
advice is really important andI think that help, advice,
guidance, mentorship,sponsorship, advocacy, whatever,
whatever we want to call it,who are those people, for both
of you, that have either helped,guided um, directed, directed
you along your way?
For me a real mixture, as I say.
My husband got me intotechnology and gave me the
(15:50):
confidence and the oomph to goand do it and make that leap of
some great managers, both menand women, who've given me the
confidence to take theopportunity, take the change,
step sideways, step backwards,take a leap forward, and offered
(16:11):
advice, and I think some of themore pertinent ones was people
giving you advice on thatauthenticity and it's okay to be
you.
You don't have to do it the waythe person who was in that role
before did it.
So it's okay to be you.
You don't have to do it likethe way the person who was in
that role before did it, youknow.
So it's okay to be squeaky andlittle and you know.
I don't.
I'm not like your averagesecurity officer, um, and that's
(16:31):
okay yeah, what does averagelook like, right you?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
know who says what it should look like exactly, and
you were absolutely not average,right, um, so mine is like so
I've got a whole range.
Actually I'm lucky to have awhole range.
One of them is the individual Italked about where I had to
challenge, I would say in theend, and actually quite quickly
after that, he became one of mybiggest allies, really
(16:55):
championed me, kind of reallypushed me.
The thing is I learned mostabout him was how to influence
and gain support from others ata very senior level and, in
particular, the power of usingdata to do that.
I was quite because I'd been inthe organization a long time.
You know I was trying toinfluence almost trading on my
reputation at Royal London andyou know my track record rather
(17:18):
than actually using facts, andthat worked well for the other
people who'd also been there along time, um, but wouldn't
really work for a lot of othersso that's, I really learned a
lot of good disciplines and thatkind of stuff and also about
really empowering people toreally solve problems and come
up with solutions.
Um, so he was definitelyactually one of them, and you
(17:38):
know, I've had countless othersand they've definitely been the
ones who've like you it's exactsame as em actually the people
that have kind of taught me tobelieve in myself.
Yeah, because we all haveself-confidence issues, right,
we all have the impostersyndrome, and they've kind of
pushed you and stretched you andchallenged you and made it safe
for you to do that andsometimes it's about unlocking
you that authentic.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It's not like it's making you something.
You're someone, you're not.
It is that's you inside, um,and the great thing around
working for an organization likerural london is you have
different campaigns anddifferent you know sort of real
things that you can champion,and I know ed and I, which is is
really being challenged in theworld right now.
Let's face it but there's.
there's something reallyimportant that I know is this
(18:21):
means a lot to you being thesponsor, doesn't it of this?
And what are you most proud ofof what you're doing?
Because you've got so manydifferent campaigns around tech
Menopals I love that name.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I need a Menopal, not going to lie.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But you've got the group, but then you've got
places for everyone.
I think that's really importantwhen it comes to groups.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
We do.
So I talk about it at a coupleof levels.
I'm proud on Royal London'sbehalf of the networks that
we've built up and the great jobthat those people do that run
the networks.
You know they do this on top oftheir job to really make it an
inclusive space and really tohelp educate people on some of
the challenges that a lot ofpeople will think to themselves
(19:02):
well, those things don't existtoday.
You know gender equality is notan issue anymore, but actually
there's so much that they dofrom an awareness thing and
bringing people together andconnecting on that.
So really proud of all thatstuff Locally in terms of the
function that Emma and I work inand the plan that I sponsor,
because we've got what?
About 2,500 of the employees atRoyal Undergroups more than half
(19:24):
, and it's so broad.
Our function.
We've got tech and security,we've got change and they have
their own different challengesaround gender attraction.
And then you've got customerservice and operations,
workplace procurement anddigital, and the bit that I love
about our plan is we kept itsimple.
There was a lot in it and I'mreally proud of the focus that
(19:44):
the team have had on attractingtalent as well as retaining and
upskilling.
So one of our big challenges hasactually been about attracting
talent and getting the rightpool, and you should always put
the right person for the role in.
You shouldn't let your targetsaround you and I drive who gets
the role.
But actually, if you'restruggling to get a diverse pool
(20:06):
, then you're always going tohave a challenge and then not
have a diverse team, and sothat's what a lot of our focus
has been on.
So the stuff that we've beendoing in terms of like women in
tech events, running STEMsessions, that the team have all
done, the connections we'vestarted to build up with
yourselves are the things I'mreally proud of and the stuff
that I see that we can leveragethat then has a snowball effect
(20:28):
on other stuff, because itdoesn't just help attract talent
, can leverage, it then has asnowball effect and other stuff
because it doesn't just helpattract talent.
If you take um, people likeshika that kind of connected us
with you.
Then she was presenting at oneof your um events recently.
That's a great, you knowopportunity for her in terms of
her own career growth andpersonal development everyone
can.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I think that's one of our big passions is giving
people a platform, the stage,and that's what we're really
excited about the partnershipand where it can go, and just
sometimes be careful what youwish for because these
partnerships start, start andthen it becomes we are that
independent, independentorganization.
Um, how does this sort offurther your wider ambitions
around, ed and I sort of thepartnership with ourselves and
(21:06):
your and I know you've got big,bold ambitions around that
attraction piece as well.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
So I think it furthers our ambition in terms
of this.
It's building up this connectedcommunity, I think, because I
think when you've got lots ofpeople that are connecting on
topics that they all feelpassionate about, then I think
that the power and the impactcan be so much greater.
And one of the things I thinkwe always need to be mindful of
(21:34):
is constant learning.
You know, things change, theworld is continually changing,
so having those connectionsmeans that we can be sharing but
also learning best practice andreally leveraging that.
So I think it really helps usin terms of the ambition,
because it gives us a broaderreach than if we were just
looking locally and hopefullymeans we can have a broader
impact with Royal London if wewere just looking locally, and
hopefully means we can have abroader impact with Royal London
.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
100% and is amplifying those conversations.
A couple of fun facts before weleave you, emma, of course, as
well as putting together sort ofjigsaw pieces during your
appendix that were not jigsawpieces, but you're a black belt
right.
What has that taught you mostabout yourself in leadership and
resilience terms?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I think it's that.
I think you used the right word.
Resilience is that it doesn'tmatter how many times you get
knocked down.
It's how many times you get up,that's important.
Feel a song in that, coming upEvery time you get challenged,
you know, pick yourself up,carry on and be humble and be
respectful.
And so, yeah, and train hard,work hard.
Whatever you do throughout mycareer has been about, you know,
(22:34):
you've got to be tenacious,you've got to push, you've got
to work hard and then you, youget the reward.
And so, yeah, it's kind of oneof those transferable skills
things and gail a chef on theside.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Oh, I love a bit of what is your most favorite.
Well, don't we all right?
Uh, what's your dish of choicefor you and your daughter?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
because you like cooking together, yeah, so my
daughter's seven um and she'sdefinitely got a bit of a
passion for making pizza with meand from scrap.
So she likes to make the doughand we've kind of gone from me
doing quite a lot of it to now.
You know I'm literally there ina supervisory capacity to make
sure she doesn't fall off step.
So pizza, um would be the dishof choice.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
And final, final question what are your
superpowers?
That's a toughie, isn't it?
Just a throw in at the end,that is.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I don't think I've ever thought of myself having a
superpower.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Everyone's got a superpower.
I think I'm calm, underpressure, I think there's not a
lot that rattles me.
So people quite often say youknow, a bit swan-like Feet might
be going really crazy at thebottom, but it doesn't show when
it, when it needs yeah, I thinkmine might be positivity.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yeah, I need to watch .
It's not annoyingly positive no, it's um but yeah, mine would
be positivity and that it's thatalways finding the silver
lining and helping others too aswell look at that between you
what a dream team.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You've got the crisis management, you've got the
service approach and you've gotthe swan like peddling, like
crazy.
We are so excited to be workingwith you at Royal London.
Uh, emmering Gell, I'm so gladthat you've joined us on the
podcast today.
Thank you so much for joiningus and we look forward to our
adventures together.
Subscribe on YouTube, apple,amazon Music, spotify or
(24:11):
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