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September 22, 2025 33 mins

The brilliant Nazir Afzal OBE joins the We Are PoWEr Podcast – bringing honesty, courage, and a lifetime of fighting for justice and inclusion. Chancellor of the University of Manchester, Chair of the Lowry, and tireless advocate for equity, Nazir refuses to let diversity become a tick-box exercise – instead, he challenges leaders to make allyship active, authentic, and accountable.

From calling out institutional misogyny to championing gender equality, Nazir shares why the retreat from diversity initiatives is not only harmful but deeply damaging to employees who are told, in effect, "we don’t believe in you anymore." He reminds us that while men are often part of the problem, they are also essential to the solution – and must step up, not out, when the work feels difficult.

In a conversation rich with challenge and hope, Nazir and Simone explore what real leadership looks like when values are tested, why measuring social impact matters, and how storytelling and community are vital tools for lasting change. For Nazir, the bottom line is clear: courage in leadership isn’t about following trends, but about standing firm when it matters most.

00:00 Welcome to the We Are Power Podcast
00:46 Introduction to Nazir Afzal OBE
02:06 Achievements and Roles
05:01 Advocacy and Leadership
08:23 Challenges and Pushbacks
12:29 The Importance of Inclusion
16:21 Celebrating Achievements
18:23 The Role of Male Leaders in Gender Equality
18:53 The Power of Advocacy and Support
20:06 Challenges Faced by Women in Male-Dominated Fields
21:37 Institutional Misogyny and Safety Measures
24:12 The Importance of Genuine Leadership Engagement
27:44 Measuring Social Impact and Value
29:44 Encouraging Community and Storytelling
32:18 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

Find out more about We Are PoWEr here. 💫

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power
podcast.
If this is your first time here, the we Are Power podcast is
the podcast for you, your careerand your life.
We release an episode everysingle Monday with listeners in
over 60 countries worldwide,where you'll hear personal life
stories, top-notch industryadvice and key leadership
insight from amazing role models.

(00:21):
As we Are Power is the umbrellabrand to Northern Power Women
Awards, which celebrateshundreds of female role models
and advocates every year.
This is where you can hearstories from all of our awards
alumni and stay up to date witheverything.
Mpw Awards and we Are Power.
Hello and welcome to a veryspecial edition of the we Are

(00:51):
Power podcast.
I'm delighted today to bejoined by superstar Nazir
Afzal-Obe, patron of theNorthern Power Awards advocacy
list and advocacy community,which we set up last year.
Multi-winner of MPW Awardsactually 2018.
Commended to that, robMukherjee.

(01:12):
He pipped your crown, that lad.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Somebody else has to win sometimes, I know I know.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
And then 2022, you won the inaugural Disruptor for
Good.
Award as well which I rememberyou trekked up from the Midlands
for to attend that evening.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
I think you were saying you have to come.
You have to come.
Why does she want me sodesperately to be there?
No, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
But thank you.
Thank you for so many things.
Thank you for being here todayand joining us on this special
edition, but thank you for allyour support, unwavering support
from year one, even when it wasa ridiculous idea.
What are we doing?

Speaker 2 (01:50):
It was never ridiculous, simone, but you know
, we thought we were makingmassive progress across the
sector, across the country, ifnot across the world, and
saddest thing is that we'regoing backwards over the last
year or two.
I think we're going to have totalk about that.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, and I think that's where you know you have
an amazing story and you'veachieved, and you're so
accomplished You're theChancellor of the University of
Manchester.
I've got a few sort ofquestions just before we get in.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
If you had to go back as a student.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
What would you study?

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, I studied law and actually, going back, I'd
probably study law again, simplybecause um, I just use that as
a tool.
Law gives you critical thinking.
It makes, gives you advocacyskills.
So actually they were reallyuseful for all the other things
I've done in my life.
Um, had I, had I done what myfamily wanted me to do was to
become a doctor, I'm notentirely sure that I'd have

(02:42):
achieved so much.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
And you have multi-roles.
I think people call themportfolio now, don't?

Speaker 2 (02:48):
they.
Absolutely, that's one word forit.
I mean, I'm just really, reallyprivileged.
I wake up in the morning andevery hour of every day is like,
for example, right now is fullof things that I want to be
doing.
I go to bed and I do the samething tomorrow.
So you mentioned Chancellor ofthe University of Manchester,
which is a phenomenal role.
I mean Manchester's 29 in theworld, it's 26 Nobel Prizes,

(03:10):
48,000 students, and you know Ihave the privilege of graduating
everybody and meeting all thesepeople who are much cleverer
than I am.
And then I'm chair of the Lowry, which is, you know, I know
we're in Liverpool right now,but the Lowry is the national
theater of the north and youknow it's a phenomenal

(03:31):
institution, um, which isgrowing from strength to
strength.
I'm chair of the church ofengland's national safeguarding
panel.
You know, this little muslimboy from birmingham is chair of
the church of england's nationalsafeguarding panel.
And before that I was chair ofthe catholic churches.
Um, in fact, I founded thecatholic churches agency.
I'm a board member of theCreative Industry Standards
Authority, which again wascreated by me and the rest of my
board members.

(03:51):
I'm just delighted to be doingstuff in all different areas of
society and hopefully trying tomake a difference.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
And what binds all those roles?
Is there a common thread or isthere a common purpose that you
take into all of them?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, all of them are about ensuring people are safe
and people can flourish, andthat's it.
It's as simple as that.
So, yeah, safeguarding speaksfor itself.
But some of the other roles arenot just about safeguarding,
about ensuring that people canflourish in the workplace, can
look, you know, their potentialcan be maximized.
When I do those graduations forEmily Simone, in front of me

(04:28):
there are hundreds and hundredsof students who are graduating
and thousands of parents andfamily members and the rest of
it, and they are the future.
And I have, in the few minutesI have with them, the ability to
motivate them, inspire them andthey motivate, inspire me.
And every time, you know, knowI've dealt with the worst that
humanity does to each other.
And there I'm in a room workingwith the people who are
delivering the best.

(04:48):
It's a real honor, a realprivilege.
So that's it.
It's that, it's the fact thatwe can somehow motivate, inspire
the next generation, but alsoensure that the current
generation is kept safe and whatyou snuck into the conversation
there.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
This is the the we Are Power podcast, but formed
out of the organization that wasNorthern Power Women and
Northern Power Awards.
How northern are you?
Because you're a Brummie lad.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, I was born.
I always say I was born inBirmingham.
I then spent 20 odd years inLondon, so I was nurtured in
London, but I was made inManchester and I was made here
in the northwest of England.
So you know, I came here in2011.
When I arrived, I knew nobodyin the north of England
absolutely nobody.
And now you know, people ask mefor selfies and stuff.

(05:33):
It's absolutely phenomenal.
Yeah, I'm running the chance ofrunning the chance of the
largest university in the north,largest theatre in the north.
Yeah, I'm just in a really,really good place.
But that's because everybodyhere has made me feel so welcome
.
And the opportunities thatexist I've been lucky to take
them, but they all exist foreverybody else too.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
And I think, to have and create opportunity, we have
to create great environments,inclusive cultures, openness,
and at this year's NorthernPower Women Awards, you stood um
, you gave time, like you alwaysdo, for us, and you stood on
that stage and you spoke inadvance of announcing the 2025

(06:13):
advocacy list and you had outsome quite stark facts out there
, didn't you?
But that was in the feedbackthat we did, uh, post.
It was.
That was one of the standoutmoments of the evening, because
not just because of theharshness and the severity of
how you talk, but actuallythat's what motivated people

(06:35):
into action.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
I always say that allyship is a verb, not a noun.
So, people, there are lots oforganizations that say you know,
I'm an ally.
What's that mean?
Unless you've done something?
Not a noun.
So there are lots oforganizations that say you know,
I'm an ally, what's that mean?
Unless you've done something?
It means nothing.
And so, absolutely, we've gotto be able to demonstrate what
allyship really stands for, andthat is about taking action.
And so I'm glad you reminded meof what I said at the we Are

(07:02):
Power Awards last year.
I did something similarrecently with, of all places,
the British CardiologyAssociation 2,000 cardiologists,
19% of them were women, and thewomen had told me beforehand
that there's no plan for makingthat 30% or 40%.
And so whilst I thought I wasgoing to be saying things you
know sort of nice things aboutheart surgeons, actually I went

(07:25):
in there and told them off andthe president said immediately
afterwards all right, nextyear's conference is all going
to have to be about how weensure gender equality.
So the only way you get peoplesometimes to change their
approach is by being blunt.
And you're absolutely right, ithas to be evidence-based.
So when I said at the MP youknow your awards last year.

(07:45):
You know, one in four womensuffer domestic abuse.
One in five women are sexuallyassaulted.
Two women every week are killedby their partners or
ex-partners.
Ten women every week take theirown lives because of the abuse
they're suffering.
More than 3.1 million Britishadults were sexually abused as
children.
That's one in 20.
So any room you go into in thiscountry of more than 20 people,

(08:08):
just think about what you havein front of you.
That is the pandemic that willoutlive the one that we went
through, and the evidence says,unfortunately, that this is not
getting any better.
If anything, it's getting worse.
At the same time, all theefforts that you're making to
try and restore equity or bringequity and inclusion, there's

(08:31):
pushback on that, and so hang ona minute.
We're supposed to be fixingthings and yet we're going
backwards.
I don't understand any of that.
So the evidence speaks foritself the stories you know.
Know I'm really honored,privileged um.
Where I can, I've sat with thevictims of horrible crimes.
I've sat with the families ofpeople who've lost their loved

(08:52):
ones in terrible circumstances,and you can't leave a room like
that not changed.
I remember when I did the reviewof london fire brigade, which
is, you know, a cultural review,three or four years ago.
I remember one day I was satwith um you know these people
who are not previously had neversaid anything about what was
going on.
There were nine women, oneafter another, very some of them

(09:13):
in very senior roles within thefire service, and they were in
tears, telling me about theirexperiences within the workplace
.
And at the end of that day Ikid you not not only had all the
tissues that we'd bought runout, because they'd cried
themselves silly, really, givenhow much they were talking about
.
At the end of that day I, givenwhat I've been through, I had

(09:35):
to ring my therapist to get somecounselling because of just the
stories I was hearing from them.
And that's what we're dealingwith.
Most people suffer in silence.
As they say, they don't talkabout what it is they're
experiencing, but when they getthe opportunity to talk about it
, it is extraordinary how manypeople are suffering, and that's

(09:56):
why what you do is so important.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
But there is a pushback.
We are as a small microorganisation.
It's not about us, but you knowit'd be remiss of us not to
talk about this, because thereare so many conversations that
we are having in the margins atthe moment and wide or in open,
and it's oh, we can't do that,we're not doing that, we can't

(10:20):
do anything to do with that, wecan't play there, we can't put
our money there, and it's hardsometimes to understand what's
the difference between droppingit and using it as an
opportunity to go in a differentdirection or being fearful of
what's happening on the otherside of the pond.

(10:40):
Is this all about what'shappening in America?

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Well, I mean yeah, absolutely.
What's happening in America hasgiven people pause for thought.
Yeah, absolutely.
But what you've described therefor me is a failure of
leadership.
It's a lack of courage.
I was always brought up to thinkyou must do the right thing.
These people don't want to dothe right thing and they're
using excuses, simone, ifthey're telling you, as you've

(11:06):
indicated, that they don't wantto carry on with the
relationship with.
We Are Power, for whateverreason, or blaming what's
happening in the States, theydon't have to follow, they have
to lead.
And the other thing to be saidis that, whatever happens in the
United States, they havefour-year government, so, who
knows, in three years' timethere'll be a different

(11:26):
government.
Are they going to go back andpivot back?
What message do they send totheir own staff?
This is what I keep getting.
The whole point of what you dois about generating safety
within the staff, about ensuringthat people within
organizations are able toadvance uh, equity, inclusion,
all the things that you.
You know the message you'resending to them by saying we

(11:49):
don't want to, we don't want torelate with.
We are power organizations likewhat you like you is we don't
believe, we don't believe in youanymore.
We don't like you, we don'ttrust you.
This is our own staff.
Uh, you don't believe in youanymore.
We don't like you, we don'ttrust you.
This is our own stuff, youdon't need to move on.
And what will happen and I betyou this will happen, I don't
know if it's happening alreadyis they'll start losing the
stuff.
The people who are therebecause they thought their

(12:12):
organization believed in them,that gave them the opportunity
to progress, to develop, develop, will start thinking I need to
go somewhere else.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
This is a toxic environment Is that what they
want, and nobody wants it.
We all want the best peoplewithin our organizations, don't
we?
We all want that, but not everyorganization is ignoring it,
isn't it?
I think we talked, was it, waltDisney?

Speaker 2 (12:33):
No, Warner Brothers.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Warner Brothers, sorry.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
One of my hats is creative industry standards
authority and so I'm engagingwith the BBC, itv, all these
organizations and WarnerBrothers.
I sat down with Warner Brothersand I said are you feeling the
pressure?
They said we're feeling thepressure.
So what we did was we got the Dand the E and we're doing the I
, so we don't have diversity andinclusion.
Diversity and equality isinclusion, so we're just going

(12:57):
to focus on the inclusion.
There you go Like magic.
They're still doing everythingthey were doing and putting the
accelerator down actually, anddoing more of it rather than
pushing back.
If they can do it and they're amulti-billion pound company why
are these other companiessaying to you somehow this is
going to damage their brand inAmerica?
That's nonsense.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
And that's what always strikes me.
Surely it's just being a bitmischievous creative.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Creative is the word.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Disruptive, for good, you know.
Or just choosing a differentlanguage, Because actually every
decade or so, or probably lessthan that, twice a decade
acronyms change, don't they?
100%?
You know how many acronyms havewe had about inclusion, equity,
equality, diversity, so surelyI'm all for pause for thought.

(13:46):
I'm all for that becausethere's no doing that one thing
all the time.
It's not always the right thing.
There's always a goodopportunity to change and
revisit and review, absolutely.
But, not to chuck things out.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Most people don't even understand what they're
talking about.
I was going past a sign when Iwas in London recently and it
was, you know, one of thosesigns on a floor where it might
be slippery, and the sign was becareful, this flooring might be
slippery when it's wet, andsomebody scrubbed it all out and
written down DEI is dead.
Since when is health and safetyDEI you?

(14:17):
Dei is dead.
Since when is health and safetyDEI you know?
All right, carry on, Slip on.
The bloody thing this is.
What we're up against is peopledon't even understand what
they're dealing with, and theimportant point is that there's
a business case for beinginclusive.
There's a business case.
You are ensuring that yourstaff develop, that your staff
progress, that your staff staywith you.
That's what you're doing.
You're ensuring that they'resafe.

(14:38):
You're ensuring that they canbe phenomenal citizens.
So if you don't do any of this,what are you saying to them?

Speaker 1 (14:49):
And I think that's the thing we have seen some
leaders, haven't we?
We've talked about an examplethere, but we have seen some
leaders in isolation, but theredoesn't seem to be as many as
you would have hoped.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
No, no, I mean, I'm glad you're doing the advocacy
list.
It's phenomenal that you'redoing that.
Maybe you need to do a leader'slist.
You know top of my head stuffwhere these people who are
really making a difference atthe most senior levels of an
organization, who are pushingback against the pushback, we
need to recognize and celebratethem.
This who are pushing backagainst the pushback, we need to

(15:20):
recognize and celebrate them.
This is quite a lonely thingbeing a leader.
Very often, all you get isnegativity and what you do with
the awards is recognizing thevalue that people add.
We need to recognize the peoplewho are pushing back against
the pushback because they needto be valued for what they're
doing and that will hopefullyencourage other people to think
that way.
But also, we're not going to doit on this um podcast, but we

(15:41):
need to call out those who arebeing the weak, uh, who are um
lacking courage, who are, forwhatever reason, um deciding
that they will not commit tothis and are somehow revoking
their membership or theirsupport for what you're doing
because, quite frankly, unlessyou call it out, they think
they've got away with it and, ofcourse, their staff may not

(16:02):
ever hear about it, so theirstaff may not ever hear that
they've got no relationship with.
We Are Power anymore and you'rebeing sensitive and you don't
want to publicly say thesethings.
However, there's a message tostaff which is you know, if they
don't value us, what hope isthere of them valuing you?

Speaker 1 (16:21):
And I think it's interesting because we, as I say
, we were born out of NorthernPower Women, northern Power
Women Awards.
We have the we Are Powerumbrella so that it can, because
we know a lot of organisationswe work with are from the North
and from represented in, so wecreate that wider community
because it's a place for.
So, whether it's um, we'regiving, we're enabling

(16:42):
opportunities, whether we'reshining a light, we we always
want to focus on what we can do.
So there's always a positivespin in what we do and I think
there's a there's a part, Ithink, sometimes in educating.
Sometimes people see the awardsas just one night and a fancy
dinner and a beautiful trophyand all that kind of things,
which of course it is, but it'sso much more than that.

(17:03):
It's the wraparound Everyonewho comes to the awards.
We have a fantastic mentoringprogram that sits with it.
So not quite everyone's awinner, but there is an element
of you know, more so than anyother award.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
I can think of Most awards I go to.
We say to the nominees well,you're a winner too, and they'll
go.
No, you didn't really mean that, did you?
But with we Are Power.
Yes, whenever I go to yourdinners I'm really lucky that I
get the chance to do so thenominees feel as proud of being
a nominated person as thewinners do, and that's a trick

(17:36):
Well done.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
And do you know?
The secret is WhatsApp groups.
You know, sometimes it'sbuilding those sub-communities
and I think that's what we'vedone over the years, because
when we set up the advocacy, thefirst advocacy list, last year,
in some ways it was afrustration, because right from
day one, we've always been allgenders.
That's always been reallyimportant.
This has never been sort of asingle agenda.

(17:59):
This is this is not a woman'sproblem to solve, right.
This is.
This is a let's get everyone inround the table at the sofa.
Everyone can do something,everyone has the power to do
something for good.
That's, that's 100, and I think.
And even from that first yearwhen I opened and said, oh, it's
all genders, the, the awardswere open to all genders and I

(18:20):
got some kickback.
Why are men involved?
But this is the whole point,isn't it?
You need, because of you haveto look at statistics to know
the majority of leaders are male.
So we're not going to go andfinger point and go do this, do
this, just.
This is all part of being partof the change, but it's that you

(18:41):
talk.
You actually talk.
Sorry, nizia.
You talk about.
Power is both a burden andresponsibility.
It's something that.
But how can leaders use thatpower for good, because we sit
at work with our advocates andwe'll come back.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, absolutely, we'll come to that.
You know, I get real energyfrom other people, so the fact
that you've got reallypassionate advocates who
demonstrated that they are goingto be advocates I come away
feeling happier, filled, moreenergized by just being in their
company.
I get so much out of that.
But at the same time, you knowwhat can I say?

(19:14):
I said to you a moment ago thatwomen are suffering, and they
have been historically and theycontinue to do so, and variably.
There's a man who is the problem, not all men.
Let's make it very, very clear.
The vast majority of us are notabusers or sexist or whatever,
but misogyny is rampant insociety.
We know that for a fact.

(19:35):
So men are also the answer towomen's empowerment.
And the fact that you have anadvocacy list and you've
demonstrated that there are menhere who are prepared to stand
up and say I'm going to fightfor women's equity, not because
I've got daughters.
I always got really pissed offwhen Richard Sunak used to say,
when he was prime minister, I'mdoing this for my daughters.

(19:56):
No, you're doing it foreverybody's daughters.
You know, literally, don't makeit about your own daughters.
It's because it's the rightthing to do and that's why we do
what we do, and you know, menand boys, unfortunately, we're
suffering too, you know, notgetting away from it.
Men are more likely to taketheir own lives With everything

(20:18):
that's going on in the worldright now.
Men undoubtedly feel in some wayrespected, neglected.
However, that's not because ofwomen.
That's because of other men.
Undoubtedly, you mentioned, Ithink, seven out of the top 100
FTSE companies has a woman CEO.
Here we are in 2025, seven outof 100, you know.
Yet we're meant to be and 51%of the population is women.

(20:42):
So we're some, some way, andyet that seems to be too far.
So, absolutely, men and boyshave to confront the issues that
we're facing and the challengesthat we have, but also what we
do and the fact that we, in someway, shape or form, are
ensuring that women can'tachieve their potential, and
that's why it's important toengage with all genders and not

(21:03):
just for women to work with realpower.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
And there's no one sticking plaster.
There's no one, because itwould just be a sticking plaster
.
But I think often, and I thinkfrom a leadership perspective,
people sometimes think it's toodifficult.
So we think that's in some wayssome of the pushback.
At the moment We'll just getrid of that because it's easy,
because you know it's not goingto hurt our.

(21:27):
We don't want it to hurt ourbottom line.
There's almost a blinkeredapproach to that, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
I mean, I go back to that report on London Fire.
You can go on, it's online.
One of the things I found withthe misogyny it was the first
organization that's ever beenfound to be institutionally
misogynist, and the reason why Isaid that was the experience of
women I mentioned earlier on,but also that women were telling
me that some male firefighters,when they were doing home

(21:56):
visits, would, when the women inthe house had turned their
backs, go through theirunderwear drawer.
I thought what?

Speaker 1 (22:05):
what what?

Speaker 2 (22:06):
what In 2023, whatever that was.
And so women did not haveconfidence that they felt safe
when approached by a malefirefighter.
So one of my recommendationswas body-worn camera that every
firefighter should havebody-worn camera, because that
provides reassurance to anybodythey engage with, but also to

(22:26):
the person wearing the body-worncamera.
And the Mayor of London put Xmillions behind it and they now
have body-worn camera.
Do you remember when SarahEverard was murdered by I won't
even name the guy, but theformer police officer?
Immediately afterwards, theridiculous reaction of the
Metropolitan Police was to tellwomen if you're not happy with
the officer in front of you,flag down a taxi or a bus.

(22:49):
That's what we've got to.
We're telling women if youcan't trust a police officer or
a firefighter or somebody in aposition of power responsibility
, flag down a bus or a taxi.
Well, we're in a bad place,aren't we?
Now, in order to fix that, wecan't keep.
Is that a definition ofinsanity?
If you do the same thing, youget the same response.

(23:09):
What you do is different, whatwe are power does is different,
and that's what people should beengaging with, organizations
and businesses should beengaging with, because that's
ultimately how they ensure notonly that the women working for
them and the women they engagewith are safe, but the men feel
safe, that the men feel thatthey can ensure that women
progress within theirorganization.

(23:30):
It is a win-win for everybody.
And yet, for some reason,organizations well well, we know
what reason the organizationsare sort of stepping away from
it and thinking it's too hard ortoo difficult.
You know, if it wasn'tdifficult then I wouldn't do it.
You know, I've been asked lotsof times to do something I've
done before and I never dosomething twice because it's

(23:51):
been done.
So similarly, all of us, youknow, we all need to be thinking
if it's difficult, it's worthdoing.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
So how do we?
Because if not us, who right?

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
And if not us, our listeners, our watchers?
There's actions to be.
It's deeds, not words.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Actions, exactly Actions.
I mean, I don't believe in.
You know, I've sat recentlywith I wouldn't even say who it
was very famous person and allthe way this person was talking
as if and everybody in theaudience was thinking you don't
believe a word of what you'resaying.
You know it's like, you know,you know the script, but you
don't believe a word of whatyou're saying.
You know it's like, uh, um, youknow you, you, you know the
script, but you don't know thestory.

(24:33):
You know, and too often,unfortunately, people in in
leadership positions know thescript but they don't know the
story.
And very, very often their ideaof engagement with their staff,
for example, is the regularstaff meeting.
Or, by the way, we have a Teamsmeeting once a month, etc.
Etc.
And somehow that's me engaging.

(24:55):
No, it's not.
You know, as human beings, wehave empathy, we have
sensitivity, the things thatmake us what we are, and that's
what we need to be using more of.
And it shouldn't be because ofyour daughters, it shouldn't be
because there's some penalty fordoing so.
It's because it's the rightthing to do and the more and

(25:15):
more of us that speak up aboutthis subject as I said, not for
today, but we need to startcalling them out, those people
who are not on the journey withus.
But at the same time, those whoare on the journey with us need
to be valued and respected, andwe need more of them to put
their hands up and say I'm goingto carry on regardless and, as

(25:36):
I said, the business case isthere.
It's not about no longer, notenough.
We know the ethical case, weknow the moral case, we know the
legal case.
The business case is there fordoing the work that you're doing
, and so we've got to keeprepeating that mantra, simone,
the more we do it, eventuallyyou'll get through, but there
will be some people that you'llnever get through to, and those

(25:57):
are the ones that we need towork with 100%.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
I think sometimes there's no point preaching to
the converted because they'reactually you having two of your
religious affiliations.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Exactly this is what we do, and this is the world
we've become now is that we livein our echo chambers and so
when you're on social media, theonly people that you engage
with are the people who followyou and you think somehow your
whole world view is based onpeople who think like you.
Actually, break that, go andtalk to somebody that you,

(26:27):
somebody that isn't from yourecho chamber.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Well, when we've had our advocacy dinners and not
disclosing the conversations wehave, but one of the big things
that came out of them is thelistening, isn't it?
And being curious, don't justassume you think you know or be
too afraid to be the advocate orto speak up.
It's actually, again, it's thesame thing If it doesn't feel

(26:51):
right.
I always think it's a bit ofthe nana test, would you say in
front of your nana.
You know, would you, would youhave that behavior there?
Absolutely not.
I think I'm always very proudthat we we will come from a
we've never been a rinse andrepeat organization.
You may see that the awards10th year next year.
It's a big year, right, and soone of the things I think
sometimes you have to take whenthere's a situation like this

(27:12):
but sometimes it feels quitebeaten down uh, the wonderful
becky taylor I see at the momentis has put a shout out.
She's doing a great event fortech women, women in tech, and
she's like I've got, I'm nearlyfull, but I can't find the
sponsors and the partners, andit's I, I'm barely going to
break even.
So she's just gone bold and puta GoFundMe page out and I'm
just like 100%, but I think it's, and it's the same as it.

(27:35):
You can't be.
We could go over here and keepwaiting, keep waiting, build a
field and it will come, or wecan try different things, we do
different things, and I thinkone of the things that we are
doing in the moment you talkedabout the measurability and what
get measured gets done.
I've always thought, well, howdo we measure the impact?
Because people see the awards,one dinner, shiny dresses, all

(27:56):
that, not shiny, I don't know,maybe, um, but you see that it's
not just about that, it's abouteverything that sits around it.
So at that we did it.
Uh, at the back end of covid.
So the lockdown period, we dida whole bit of connectivity
between your fine university,actually 13 universities across
the North, because there was abit of there was a lack of

(28:16):
connectivity, wasn't there?
Because we're all sent home,and I was really upset, actually
, that you've got all thesegreat leaders out there who want
to have that give back and youknow the good ones, not just the
ones for show.
And then you've got the studentswho are suddenly living at home
, maybe where they weren'texpecting to study and develop
and all that kind of thing, andwe wanted to put that thread,

(28:37):
that pipeline, be three.
So we innovated In that time.
That was a really tricky timefor the world.
We did what we could do.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
And what was the social impact.
So what we could do and whatwas it?

Speaker 1 (28:46):
What was the social impact?
So what we did is we originallymeasured it.
It was, and I was like what isthat?
What is this?
social value thing that peopleare measuring and we used this
thing called TOMS I can't evenget there was acronyms for
acronyms but we got some helpfrom a professional services
organisation who helped ratifyit.
For us, three quarters of amillion and what we've done by

(29:06):
just joining the dots andcreating conversations and I'm
like we've done this for years,we're good at it, we're northern
, we're good at chatting, wecare about people, we do things
with purpose and people want topass on that skills and
knowledge that now we're now inexcess of, probably just short
of three million in what we'vecreated, but I think we're more.
So we're using, using thisopportunity now let's measure

(29:28):
again.
Let's look now, because theawards were never kept factored
into that.
These were these mentoringsessions.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Okay, so it's a tiny bit of what you do.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah.
So I'm excited about thatbecause actually if that's what
gets noticed and that's in ourhands to do, then let's measure
it.
And then sometimes we don't allshout about the great stuff
that we do.
Let's shout about it.
Let's get all of our advocatesor everyone who's been involved
in the well, 10 years and beyondof what we've done creating and
building this community,Because this is communities of
sub-communities and let's sharethat impact and stories and

(30:04):
let's not have a humble bragabout it.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Let's brag about that .
I mean, there's a human touchas well, because 10 years ago,
there would have been somebodywho was just leaving school,
started working with you or wentto a mentoring session who are
now senior leaders in whateverorganisation.
That's impact too.
So tell us actually.
There's our shout out right,capture them.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Tell us what you've done, tell us where you've done,
tell us where you've been, tellus what you know.
Sometimes I've got a podcast, acouple of podcasts tomorrow,
and two of the people that I'minterviewing separately met at
an mpw event, but went to schooltogether but never knew each
other so it's.
Sometimes it's that what, whatdoes?
Yeah, I think jasmine in theoffice calls it the invisible

(30:44):
thread that you don't know isthere till it's ready to be
activated.
I probably made that up now,but I'm gonna take it anyway,
but it's.
But tell us I think let's leavethis podcast with the
positivity that everyone couldbe part of this tell us what.
Let's measure.
Let's measure, becausesometimes that one thing, that
one opportunity that you gotwhen I see the linkedin posts

(31:04):
about I did this and I wasinvolved in that session I've
now got a promotion, yay, yes, Ifind about this stuff
anecdotally, let please don't beshy to the evidence we want.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, we are very humble people, generally human
beings.
Uh, we need some people for oneday, we want you to stop being
humble.
Tell us how we are power mpwthe word before has changed you
and what you've done since andwho you've engaged with and who
else you intend to engage with.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Let's capture those stories we just started a
campaign.
Who knew I love coming to thesewithout a plan?

Speaker 2 (31:36):
let's capture these stories.
You know, at the end of the dayit's about storytelling and you
know 100.
It's about impact.
For every pound that peoplehave given you over the years,
you've generated multi, multipounds.
You know that's what the valuestatement will show.
So we need to demonstrate themore money that you give we are
power, the more that societywill get back it feels like a

(31:57):
bob geldof moment, but withoutthe money, please, that can come
to ring those ring those.
What did he say?
Pick up the phone.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
Nobody picks up my phone anymore but we still do
that, is it?
We still do that, don't we?
Oh, we still do that.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Don't we or WhatsApp me?
Don't WhatsApp me, by the way,by all means.
You know, show us how we Are.
Power has impacted on yourlives and the people around you.
Also, talk about what you'regoing to be doing next.
Let's capture that, too, andrecognize that we are generally,
as a society, really goodpeople.

(32:28):
You know, know, there are lotsof bad people, but there's lots
of good people, and we want tohear more of what good people
are doing 100%.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Nazir Afzal OBE.
Don't know why we bother withnotes, do we?
We don't need those, um.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for always having ourback.
Thank you for helping us leadand drive the charge on this and
never giving up no, you give memore than I give you.
So thank you so much thank you,thank you so much for watching.
Keep those stories coming in.

(32:57):
It doesn't matter where youthink it's something so small,
because the sum of all thosesmall parts add to something
else will motivate someone else,will make someone else say, oh
my god, I can, I can do that andI can make the change, and
that's how we stem the flow ofwhat is currently happening.
Thank you so much for joiningthe we Are Power podcast.
Thank you so much for joiningus and we'll see you next time.

(33:18):
Subscribe on YouTube, apple,amazon Music, spotify or
wherever you get your podcasts,leave us a review or follow us
on socials.
We are power underscore net oninsta, tiktok and twitter, or we
are power on linkedin, facebookand we are underscore power on
youtube.
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