May 12, 2025 • 25 mins
Dr. Chrissi McCarthy's candid conversation takes us through her story of growing up in a council house in Bracknell to holding a PhD and founding the Centre of Behavioural Equality.
Dr Chrissi opens up about mental health struggles that doctors dismissed because she 'was smiling' and an alcohol dependency that society refused to recognise because it didn't fit the stereotypical image of alcoholism.
Listen to learn:
👷♀️ Taking a break during her PhD after experiencing miscarriages, business challenges, and mental health struggles
💪 How Dr Chrissi reframed her relationship with alcohol
🎓 Completing a nine-year PhD and being from a background where such achievements were rare
💫 Founding the Centre of Behavioural Equality to develop research-backed, context-driven EDI strategies
🔋 The poWEr of resilience
Find out more about We Are PoWEr here. 💫
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power
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(00:21):
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Power.
Well, welcome to the we ArePower podcast Today.
(00:42):
Never imitated, neverreplicated, singularly wonderful
, everybody's wonder girl.
Wow, welcome to the we ArePower podcast.
Today I am joined by DrChrissie McCarthy.
Yeah, phd, doctor andeverything I know.
Who'd have thought it?
It's never as easy getting aPhD as you think, is it?
And I will get into this.
But in my preparation fortoday's chat, I listened to
(01:05):
another podcast because therewere other ones out there who
knew right and it talked abouttaking a break, the bravery of
taking a break in your PhD,because it's a big thing to do,
isn't it?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
It was a massive thing to do and it was a really,
really hard thing to do becausethe things that led me to a
break I'm very typical, I think,of a lot of women out there in
that I need lots of big reasonsto think that it's okay to have
some downtime, and for me it waspretty much a breakdown, a
mental health breakdown thatallowed it.
(01:37):
So I'd had a couple ofmiscarriages, really early term,
like I don't know the pain ofthe later term ones, but they
were early and we wanted I don'tknow the pain of the later term
ones, but they were early andwe wanted it, you know.
So so that was reallyheartbreaking for me.
Also, I had a client that didnot treat our business well and
I can be incredibly naive, blessmy socks and so I had to make
four people redundant.
(01:58):
And then, on top of that, I wastrying to do this PhD, so I
wasn't in a great headspace forit, and the harder I pushed, the
worse it got and like it reallygot to a space where, like I
don't know if I say it in theother podcast or not where I
just had this kind of real bigmental health breakdown and I
don't know what it was, becauseI went to the doctor about it
(02:20):
and the doctor basically Iexplained the situation.
I was like I've not been able toleave the house in three months
, like I can barely get out ofbed.
This is the most I've done insuch a long time and the doctor
was like well, I can tell younow you're not depressed,
because I've chatted you forfive minutes and you've smiled
all the way through.
So it was really yeah.
So I got no help for it andjust kind of lumbered through,
(02:40):
and it was then that I was likeI can't keep doing this PhD
right now, so I had to kind ofsend this letter to my poor
supervisor.
So I was like and there was amiscarriage and there was a
business breakdown and there'sbeen a mental health break and I
think I just need some time.
But, um, and I'm not, but I wassmiling through it all.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So you were okay, right, yeah, I was grand, I was
grand like we're taught to mask,aren't we?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
we do it well, but um , there was good news in that,
taking some time apart, mymental health got better and and
I did end up falling pregnant.
So, but that doesn't happen foreveryone.
I don't wish to imply that itdoes.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Wow, that is a an opening to the podcast.
Sorry, yeah, went in hard.
No but it's because you know, Ithink, when you you hear a
title, you hear, you know DrChrissy McCarthy, multi-award
winning, super successful,founder of multiple things.
How do you, how do you introyourself?
Because you are a woman of many, many things, oh, not like that
(03:35):
.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Just, I don't know, I struggle with this.
I can talk about my ideas allday long and, you know, to the
point of boredom I don't do aswell to talk about myself.
I can tell you what I'minterested in.
So, like you know, I was abuilder.
So when I was a builder, Iwould tell you about, you know,
my love of concrete, my love ofcranes and what we were building
(03:57):
.
Now I can tell you about mylove of equal workplaces and
creating really fairenvironments.
As for me, I'm just um, I'm allright.
Like I have moments ofbrilliance, I have times of just
awfulness, like mostly I'm justmuddling through.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Like the rest of us, I'm just um if, if it's not
about you you were your finalistin Northern Powerpoint Awards
this year.
How did that feel?
Was that a bit overwhelmingthen?
Um?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
no, because I had my marketing manager with me, and
also Fiona Hull, who's oh,construction Q she is ace.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
We love Fiona.
High five Fiona, love her most.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I worked on site with her and she, oh my gosh, that
must have been a riot, it wasbrilliant.
She, um, she took me shopping,I talk, I taught her about
drainage, you know, as with most, female relationships.
So, uh, she's brilliant.
And she made me like put myselfforward a few years before.
So I wrote something justterrible, like I do things All
(05:02):
right, here you go.
And then she nominated me thisyear along with someone else and
like it was fine because Fionahad put me there, but it was um
Jo Clark who won in our categoryabsolutely we were over the
moon, because Jo Clark's notjust doing good work.
You can see that that work hitsher hard every single day and
it's just so impressive to seesomeone who was constantly going
(05:24):
through that and yet is stillfighting for everyone else.
Because I know, when I had mymental health break, I couldn't
do much more than watch Buffythe Vampire Slayer on a daily
basis, so she was just justextraordinary.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
So we there was a lot of whooping and hollering from
our side of the table-absolutely, and I know I think I
spoke to you on the night andyou came on the stage.
I think you said, um, I had thebest time not winning anything,
but I've got the best mentorbecause we have a mentoring
program, don't we?
That sits, uh, sits alongsidethe awards, oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yvonne's just an amazing mentor.
She's so, so good and likeusually, like I've done
mentoring before, you usuallymeet up about once a month.
Yv Ron's like let's do thisonce a week.
Um, oh, she's just brilliantand for me sounds terrible.
It would have been, of course,lovely to win it's always nice
to win things but getting thementor was the winning because,
(06:16):
like, she's helping me thinkabout finance, she's taught um,
we've got some like projectsrunning and so she's helping me
think about funding and thethings that I don't lean towards
in a business.
She's absolutely amazing.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So that was the winner for me, really and that's
the irony, because you knowmentoring is so much about you
and you want to make the worldbetter, more fair and equal
place and giving back, payingforward, but to be on the
receiving end of it's kind ofthe role reversal right oh, it
absolutely is, and I've had lotsof informal mentors in my life
and absolutely brilliant ones,and technically I suppose my PhD
(06:48):
supervisors could be classed asmentors.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
They've certainly helped me immensely, um, during
the PhD and after it.
But to have this kind of moreformal thing, it's, it's like
really great and kind of likeI'm not too sure why I haven't
sought this out beforehand andmaybe I should look into that.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It's sought you, let's blame Fiona Hall, shall we
?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
We should blame her for everything, good and bad.
She's a wonder.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Let's take back to where we started.
Really was talking about thePhD and taking that break and
having all this dreadful thingshappening.
You know miscarriage, twomiscarriages.
Yeah, we had two yeah, um, andthen you sought a different way
to deal with.
She went to the doctor.
The doctor said you weresmiling, so therefore you had no
mental health issue, right?
(07:33):
So absolutely, so you find adifferent way to deal with
mental health yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So I've always struggled with my mental health,
say because long as I can everremember and these days it's an
awful lot better and a lot ofit's been environmental, like my
my dad had a terrible time.
He was in the industrial homesin Ireland, so between 7 and 11,
so of course that meant thatour home life was, um, at times
just a little bit morechallenging than other home
(07:59):
lives might have been.
So I left home at 16 and havedealt a lot with my mental
health, I think through drinkingwhich I don't know.
I'm just not going to recommendit.
It felt like a great idea atthe time, but it turns out it
was a terrible one, and so thenI had to.
Then I came to a point where Irealised that this wasn't
working for me not that it everwas and I really had to try and
(08:24):
understand it.
And strangely, my PhD is whatenabled me to give up drinking,
which I was not expecting at all.
But yeah, it did.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
But society also said that you didn't have a drinking
problem.
Oh, society very much did so nomental health problem because
of the smiling.
No drinking problem because itwas all fine.
Yeah, the problem with drinkingis you, it was all fine.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, the problem with drinking is you can be fun
when you drink.
I can also be an absolutenightmare, in pretty much any
color that you want to put intoit.
Um, and when I when I wascoming to realize I had a
drinking problem, which wasmostly due to my absolutely
wonderful husband.
Um, just talking about a lot ofquantity surveyors today, so I
married a quantity surveyor andFiona Hull's a quantity surveyor
(09:06):
.
Apparently, they're just someof the world's greatest people,
which I don't think it saysenough.
A new study, I think, yeah,exactly, are they the best?
But yeah, it was reallyinteresting when my husband was
was the one who saw what thedrinking looked like and my
drinking wasn't what we wouldwrite down as an alcoholic,
because that would be someonewho drinks every day, who has a
(09:29):
dependency on alcohol and thatshakes.
And I wasn't doing those things.
I was going out two, threetimes a week, but I was the last
one standing and by that I meanwhen I'd go out I'd be drinking
till two to six in the morning.
Every time I went out I didn'tdrink and not black out and that
was really normalized for me.
So of course that would writeoff the next day and I'd still
(09:54):
be able to work and I wouldstill be able to always make it
work.
So that's okay, isn't it?
And so trying to reconcile thatwith the fact that that's not
okay and also the impact that itwould have on my husband
because I'd always see it aswell it's just fine, like I get
myself home, it's grand Whereasmy husband would worry about me
he's such an amazing man and hisconversations about this.
(10:19):
This isn't right.
You shouldn't drink to thatextent so regularly.
But then when you speak topeople about it, it's fine,
chris, we go out, we have alaugh, it's fine, chris.
And then you start to realizethat their version of staying
out late isn't your version andtheir version of what fine is is
(10:41):
very, very different.
And when it isn't, they'resaying it's fine because perhaps
they see something inthemselves as well.
So you kind of gotta unpack alot of stuff that you don't want
to be unpacking and then youhave to just go.
Do you know what?
I think I settled on drinkingproblem rather than alcoholism,
though I would be happy to callmyself an alcoholic if, if that
(11:02):
ever helped anyone, I don't shyaway from it and I certainly do
not view myself as better than I.
Just happen to not be able todrink and some people can, I
can't.
Luckily for me, I worked outthat I don't need to drink.
Sometimes I need other peopleto.
I'm already on the karaoke.
I'm already dancing the peopleto to like I'm already on the
(11:25):
karaoke, I'm already dancing,I've clearly got no filter, like
it's not necessary for me andkind of turning that corner and
understanding you can be fun,you can have a great night out,
you can do all the things thatyou ever did and not have to get
a dodgy taxi home was a bit ofa revelation, but it took time
and it took work and and youtalked about your husband taking
the time to keep saying it's,that's not okay.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
What was the actual corner?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
what oh the the moment?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
So the moment was really interesting because it
wasn't as if it was the worstthing that had ever happened or
that I'd ever done.
It just felt like enough, whichis really interesting.
So I'd gone out and we'd goneto go to a place that was having
a barbecue and some drinks, andthey didn't end up putting the
barbecue on, so I just had redwine and then we moved on to
(12:13):
another place and then I hadeven more red wine.
My husband had gone home bythis point.
I joined some other friends andI got into the taxi.
Apparently, I don't know, Idon't remember this.
What I remember is being in thehospital and like sobering up,
and the taxi driver had clearlythought this woman is too.
So I was told, thought thiswoman's too drunk, I'm not
(12:34):
taking her home, I'm taking herto the hospital, went home, went
to bed and then we got a knockon the door and it was the
ambulance had come around tocheck to see that I'd gotten
home, that I was okay, and Ijust remember in that moment
thinking this isn't what otherpeople do, this isn't okay and,
(12:54):
more importantly, this isn'twhat I want and if I'm trying to
have a baby, this isn't what Iwant for them, and I think it
was.
I think it was that that mademe kind of like, right, I've
gotta, I've gotta do something,so yeah not easy no, really
really hard.
There's so much.
(13:15):
I think what, um, what's reallyimportant to understand when
you give up something likealcohol is you've, you can't
just stop drinking, not if youwant it to work, or at least
sorry, I shouldn't say that insuch definite terms it's
terrible, um, for me.
I I didn't think it would behelpful to give up drinking
because I knew that I wouldspend the rest of my life
thinking I'm I'm missing out andif I gave up, I wanted to give
(13:39):
up and be happy about it.
And right now I am so muchhappier in my sobriety and
genuinely.
So I will never say I'll neverdrink again, because I think the
moment that I think that is themoment that I'm just wide open
to it, like that's an invitation, right, but instead what I know
is I'm happier not drinking.
But that means to get there Ihad to undo a lot of things Like
(14:02):
why do I drink?
Why is that important?
And they seem like reallysimple questions.
Oh, but they're not.
So there was that kind of workthat needed to be done, which
was really fortunate because itcoincided with a bit of my PhD,
where I was studyingepistemology and ontology.
So what is truth and what's thenature of being so, yeah, wow,
oh, that was not easy.
(14:22):
Took my little brain a longtime to get my head around it,
but it helped me to think aboutthe stories that I'd been told
about alcohol.
That that's what makes you fun,that's what's enjoyable.
It helped me to question thosestories.
And is that true?
Because I'm not sure that I amfun when I'm drunk and
aggressive, or when I'm drunkand crying uncontrollably, or
(14:43):
when I'm drunk and lostsomewhere in a ditch being
hauled out by the police.
I don't think that that is true.
So maybe undoing that a littlebit is really helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
And how has that sort of shaped your future?
Because you ultimatelycompleted your PhD I did indeed
Doctor ultimately completed yourPhD, I did indeed Doctor.
You became a mum and you arepassionate about an equal and
fair society, right?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, I am very much so.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
And is that driven by all of that learning and that
unpicking, pulling that thread?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, I think I was able to give up drinking because
of all of that kind of work andthose motivations as well.
I certainly didn't want tobring my son into into that kind
of drinking environment and I'mreally glad that I didn't.
It feels like, um, like a giftthat I give to me as much as a
gift that I give to him.
Um, but yeah, that kind ofthose kind of levels of thinking
(15:40):
, I suppose have just reallykind of helped an awful lot with
it.
So I would advise PhD, but onlyif you really want to do one
otherwise, like they're painful.
How many years in total?
Oh, it took me nine, nine years.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I'm literally hyperventilating inside.
I can feel it right now.
I'm a 6.0 level girl.
It's just the terrifyingthought.
I hada chat with someone not solong ago up at one of the
universities and like that we'redoing I think it's called a
living phd now or a work-basedphd.
So it's less about all thewriting, more about the doing,
and I'm like yeah, no, not in aminute, no, it's not for me too
(16:14):
much, right?
I like getting all the answerswhich is what you're doing right
no, no, no no, um, we'reunraveling PhD now.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Well, it's really interesting because I didn't
know what one was and I wasreally encouraged into it, and
that's the thing I find reallyfascinating.
I come from a council housedown in Bracknell.
People that come from mybackground don't tend to end up
with PhDs as much as perhapsother people do.
We didn't know what one was.
My dad always says the funniestthing it took him a while to
(16:46):
understand what this PhD was,and now he describes it as
Chrissy isn't the sort of doctorthat will save your life.
She's the sort that will talkyou to death.
And he's not wrong, is he?
But yeah, so it's a reallydifficult and long thing, and I
found it really difficult towrite academically.
I just was really bad at it.
(17:06):
I like storytelling in mywriting.
You can't be doing that in aPhD.
You need to be precise.
So it was.
Yeah, it's one of the best andone of the very worst things, or
one of the worst experiencesand one of the best experiences
I've ever had.
I would do it again.
Yeah, I would.
And will you?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Oh, like if I retired .
Never say never, though.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Oh, if I retired, which I don't think I'll ever do
.
But yeah, definitely do a PhDin something else.
But it teaches sorry.
Back to your point.
It teaches you how to askquestions and the thing is oh
God, I'm going to slip intoepistemology.
We can never be 100% sure thatanything's true.
So it gets you closer.
The lovely thing about a PhD is, I think, if you do it right,
(17:51):
it teaches you.
You don't know anything, andit's okay, because neither does
anyone else.
So you know just.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
That's a tote bag, quote there.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I've never heard one.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
So you talked about growing up on a council estate
in Bracknell to finding your wayinto having a PhD mental health
, alcohol, challenges along theway a mum, that's you know you
talk about.
When someone sees someone'stitle, you automatically assume
that it's that one straight path, that one clear line, privilege
(18:21):
, education, everything thatgoes with that.
Do you look at it?
Yeah, actually, actually, Ikind of do identify as a role
model no, no.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I don't know you're gonna say that no, no, I, I
don't and I, but I'm starting tothink that how to put it like
things like talking about thedrinking, I think is really
important, because I think it'sreally important for people to
see that people that can be likeyou, um, or things in you that
(18:53):
you recognize, we can have thisproblem and if that helps
someone to make it take a stepor an action, that's best for
them.
I think that's really important.
So I think I'll take role modelthere.
But it's, you know, it's likewords, like leader, isn't it?
And role model they just seemso big they're for these lofty
people that have done amazingthings inspirational influencer,
leader they're all big, aren'tthey big or bold?
(19:15):
and like I'm just doing thestuff that I find interesting
how would you describe yourselfin three words?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
oh, that's a tough one, isn't?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
it, you've got phd.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
This is easy to you.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I think oh no, I can't do that.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I can't do that.
That's more than three words.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I don't know what do you think your superpower is?
Well, resilience, without ashadow of a doubt, resilience
there's.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, like you've just got to get back up again,
that's it and and if you hadthat one sort of, one sort of
magic wand that you could dosomething and change something
today in this crazy world thatwe're in, I might need to give
you more than one wand mightknow.
I'd need a lot of onesands.
(20:08):
Where would you start?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I think probably tolerance.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I think we are where we are by design.
I think that it has served anawful lot of people to divide an
awful lot of people, and Ithink that that's really
heartbreaking, because there'salways more that we have in
common than we have, you know,the opposite of common, which I
can't think of.
And so I think, just gettingpeople to see that, just have a
look, and yeah, I think it wouldbe tolerance.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Wow, so it feels so simple.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Oh no, it's far more complicated.
There is.
You need to look at the news,don't you?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
at any given moment.
Tell us about the Centre ofBehavioural Equality.
What does that look like on aday-to-day basis?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, so we're starting up a project which
we're launching in, I think,september now with the Russell
Group University, so that'scalled Fields.
So that's all about teachingpeople how to create EDI
strategies that arecontext-driven and
research-backed.
So that's really exciting.
To create EDI strategies thatare context-driven and
research-backed, so that'sreally exciting.
We do a lot of work for clientsthrough consultancy, like the
(21:13):
City of London Corporation.
We write a commitment for them,for the construction industry,
deliver a lot of training, whichis always so much fun because
then you get to hear how peopleare thinking and feeling.
And also there's the researcharm of it, which is where we're
trying to, um, to get people tothink really behaviorally about
how we approach equality.
So quite often, when people arethinking about equality, what
(21:34):
we do is we, we think about howwe want people to act and then
we kind of give them trainingand hope that they will.
But it obviously gets a bitmore complicated.
So we use the work from my phd,which is about understanding,
about fairness, um.
So basically I'll say it thisway to you If you work for an
organisation that you perceiveto be unfair, we tend to act
really individualistically, likeI'm going to look out for me,
(21:57):
no one else is going to.
So when we're in thatindividualistic state, what we
tend to do is we think ofdifference as a threat, because
we don't know why anyone'sgetting an opportunity, so we
assume that anyone who'sdifferent is going to get more
than us.
We don't follow rules andprocedures of organizations
because we think what's thepoint?
And we tend to align toindividuals with power, which
(22:18):
means we tend to copy theirbehaviors.
So if you imagine dropping anequality and diversity
initiative into that environment, it doesn't really end well.
What we see is increasedresistance, increased hostility,
increased discrimination.
So that's a real worry, right.
But there's good news If weperceive our organizations to be
fair, we start to act reallycollectively because we think
(22:39):
what I put in, I'm going to putout again, or get out again,
sorry.
And so in those kinds ofenvironments we see differences,
opportunity, we follow rulesand policies of organizations
and, more importantly, we alignwith the goals of the
organization over individualswith power.
And what that means is we'remore likely to call those
individuals out and less likelyto copy their poor behaviors.
So that means that equalitywork has got a chance of
(23:02):
succeeding.
So for me, that's the levelthat you've got to get to first
before then you start to dothose terms like equity, which
people talk about, and alsoundoing inequality within
organizations.
So we try and kind of basicallypush for that as well and get
people to really think aboutorganizational sociology in
(23:23):
their kind of equality approach.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
And one of the things that you talk about is that you
could always talk really quiteheavily about concrete cranes,
cats or chess.
Oh yeah, I do In any particularorder.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, cats have taken a bit of a backseat because my
husband and son are allergic, sothat's heartbreaking.
I know Chess.
At the moment I'm part of atwo-woman improv show around
mixing up improv and chess,which is delightfully fun with
the wonderful Susan Q I'm sorry,susan Jackson, susie Q on my
WhatsApp, so that keeps me busybecause you've got to have a
(24:00):
hobby.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Concrete.
I love giving an interestingconcrete story.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
You can't just tease one now.
You have to give one now.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
They have to be asked for.
So do you know that if you addsugar to concrete, it will stop
it from setting?
I did not, but I do now.
Now I need another one.
Yeah, um, for fact, the otherone's too long, but I will.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I'll give you a follow-up, which is?
They once accidentally pouredconcrete into the victoria line
substation when they were Idon't know if it was Crosswell,
but there was a big project.
Concrete ended up gettingpoured in, was about to stop the
entire network from working andsomeone was like no, put sugar
in it.
So they put sugar in, mixed itup and were able to scoop it out
, as opposed to have to try andbreak it out.
So, concrete people, I'mtelling you it's the future.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Look at this.
Well see now.
I'm now going to give you yourthree words.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I think is how we would describe you you're a
builder.
I'm a builder at heart.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I'm a builder yeah, you are resilient and you are
awesome thank you, I will takethose, oh Dr.
Chrissie, thank you so much forjust being so honest, open and
sharing on in our conversationtoday.
I look forward to keeping ourconversation going and thank you
so much for joining us on thepod.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
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Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power
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(00:21):
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Well, welcome to the we ArePower podcast Today.
(00:42):
Never imitated, neverreplicated, singularly wonderful
, everybody's wonder girl.
Wow, welcome to the we ArePower podcast.
Today I am joined by DrChrissie McCarthy.
Yeah, phd, doctor andeverything I know.
Who'd have thought it?
It's never as easy getting aPhD as you think, is it?
And I will get into this.
But in my preparation fortoday's chat, I listened to
(01:05):
another podcast because therewere other ones out there who
knew right and it talked abouttaking a break, the bravery of
taking a break in your PhD,because it's a big thing to do,
isn't it?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
It was a massive thing to do and it was a really,
really hard thing to do becausethe things that led me to a
break I'm very typical, I think,of a lot of women out there in
that I need lots of big reasonsto think that it's okay to have
some downtime, and for me it waspretty much a breakdown, a
mental health breakdown thatallowed it.
(01:37):
So I'd had a couple ofmiscarriages, really early term,
like I don't know the pain ofthe later term ones, but they
were early and we wanted I don'tknow the pain of the later term
ones, but they were early andwe wanted it, you know.
So so that was reallyheartbreaking for me.
Also, I had a client that didnot treat our business well and
I can be incredibly naive, blessmy socks and so I had to make
four people redundant.
(01:58):
And then, on top of that, I wastrying to do this PhD, so I
wasn't in a great headspace forit, and the harder I pushed, the
worse it got and like it reallygot to a space where, like I
don't know if I say it in theother podcast or not where I
just had this kind of real bigmental health breakdown and I
don't know what it was, becauseI went to the doctor about it
(02:20):
and the doctor basically Iexplained the situation.
I was like I've not been able toleave the house in three months
, like I can barely get out ofbed.
This is the most I've done insuch a long time and the doctor
was like well, I can tell younow you're not depressed,
because I've chatted you forfive minutes and you've smiled
all the way through.
So it was really yeah.
So I got no help for it andjust kind of lumbered through,
(02:40):
and it was then that I was likeI can't keep doing this PhD
right now, so I had to kind ofsend this letter to my poor
supervisor.
So I was like and there was amiscarriage and there was a
business breakdown and there'sbeen a mental health break and I
think I just need some time.
But, um, and I'm not, but I wassmiling through it all.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So you were okay, right, yeah, I was grand, I was
grand like we're taught to mask,aren't we?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
we do it well, but um , there was good news in that,
taking some time apart, mymental health got better and and
I did end up falling pregnant.
So, but that doesn't happen foreveryone.
I don't wish to imply that itdoes.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Wow, that is a an opening to the podcast.
Sorry, yeah, went in hard.
No but it's because you know, Ithink, when you you hear a
title, you hear, you know DrChrissy McCarthy, multi-award
winning, super successful,founder of multiple things.
How do you, how do you introyourself?
Because you are a woman of many, many things, oh, not like that
(03:35):
.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Just, I don't know, I struggle with this.
I can talk about my ideas allday long and, you know, to the
point of boredom I don't do aswell to talk about myself.
I can tell you what I'minterested in.
So, like you know, I was abuilder.
So when I was a builder, Iwould tell you about, you know,
my love of concrete, my love ofcranes and what we were building
(03:57):
.
Now I can tell you about mylove of equal workplaces and
creating really fairenvironments.
As for me, I'm just um, I'm allright.
Like I have moments ofbrilliance, I have times of just
awfulness, like mostly I'm justmuddling through.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Like the rest of us, I'm just um if, if it's not
about you you were your finalistin Northern Powerpoint Awards
this year.
How did that feel?
Was that a bit overwhelmingthen?
Um?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
no, because I had my marketing manager with me, and
also Fiona Hull, who's oh,construction Q she is ace.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
We love Fiona.
High five Fiona, love her most.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I worked on site with her and she, oh my gosh, that
must have been a riot, it wasbrilliant.
She, um, she took me shopping,I talk, I taught her about
drainage, you know, as with most, female relationships.
So, uh, she's brilliant.
And she made me like put myselfforward a few years before.
So I wrote something justterrible, like I do things All
(05:02):
right, here you go.
And then she nominated me thisyear along with someone else and
like it was fine because Fionahad put me there, but it was um
Jo Clark who won in our categoryabsolutely we were over the
moon, because Jo Clark's notjust doing good work.
You can see that that work hitsher hard every single day and
it's just so impressive to seesomeone who was constantly going
(05:24):
through that and yet is stillfighting for everyone else.
Because I know, when I had mymental health break, I couldn't
do much more than watch Buffythe Vampire Slayer on a daily
basis, so she was just justextraordinary.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
So we there was a lot of whooping and hollering from
our side of the table-absolutely, and I know I think I
spoke to you on the night andyou came on the stage.
I think you said, um, I had thebest time not winning anything,
but I've got the best mentorbecause we have a mentoring
program, don't we?
That sits, uh, sits alongsidethe awards, oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yvonne's just an amazing mentor.
She's so, so good and likeusually, like I've done
mentoring before, you usuallymeet up about once a month.
Yv Ron's like let's do thisonce a week.
Um, oh, she's just brilliantand for me sounds terrible.
It would have been, of course,lovely to win it's always nice
to win things but getting thementor was the winning because,
(06:16):
like, she's helping me thinkabout finance, she's taught um,
we've got some like projectsrunning and so she's helping me
think about funding and thethings that I don't lean towards
in a business.
She's absolutely amazing.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So that was the winner for me, really and that's
the irony, because you knowmentoring is so much about you
and you want to make the worldbetter, more fair and equal
place and giving back, payingforward, but to be on the
receiving end of it's kind ofthe role reversal right oh, it
absolutely is, and I've had lotsof informal mentors in my life
and absolutely brilliant ones,and technically I suppose my PhD
(06:48):
supervisors could be classed asmentors.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
They've certainly helped me immensely, um, during
the PhD and after it.
But to have this kind of moreformal thing, it's, it's like
really great and kind of likeI'm not too sure why I haven't
sought this out beforehand andmaybe I should look into that.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It's sought you, let's blame Fiona Hall, shall we
?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
We should blame her for everything, good and bad.
She's a wonder.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Let's take back to where we started.
Really was talking about thePhD and taking that break and
having all this dreadful thingshappening.
You know miscarriage, twomiscarriages.
Yeah, we had two yeah, um, andthen you sought a different way
to deal with.
She went to the doctor.
The doctor said you weresmiling, so therefore you had no
mental health issue, right?
(07:33):
So absolutely, so you find adifferent way to deal with
mental health yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So I've always struggled with my mental health,
say because long as I can everremember and these days it's an
awful lot better and a lot ofit's been environmental, like my
my dad had a terrible time.
He was in the industrial homesin Ireland, so between 7 and 11,
so of course that meant thatour home life was, um, at times
just a little bit morechallenging than other home
(07:59):
lives might have been.
So I left home at 16 and havedealt a lot with my mental
health, I think through drinkingwhich I don't know.
I'm just not going to recommendit.
It felt like a great idea atthe time, but it turns out it
was a terrible one, and so thenI had to.
Then I came to a point where Irealised that this wasn't
working for me not that it everwas and I really had to try and
(08:24):
understand it.
And strangely, my PhD is whatenabled me to give up drinking,
which I was not expecting at all.
But yeah, it did.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
But society also said that you didn't have a drinking
problem.
Oh, society very much did so nomental health problem because
of the smiling.
No drinking problem because itwas all fine.
Yeah, the problem with drinkingis you, it was all fine.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, the problem with drinking is you can be fun
when you drink.
I can also be an absolutenightmare, in pretty much any
color that you want to put intoit.
Um, and when I when I wascoming to realize I had a
drinking problem, which wasmostly due to my absolutely
wonderful husband.
Um, just talking about a lot ofquantity surveyors today, so I
married a quantity surveyor andFiona Hull's a quantity surveyor
(09:06):
.
Apparently, they're just someof the world's greatest people,
which I don't think it saysenough.
A new study, I think, yeah,exactly, are they the best?
But yeah, it was reallyinteresting when my husband was
was the one who saw what thedrinking looked like and my
drinking wasn't what we wouldwrite down as an alcoholic,
because that would be someonewho drinks every day, who has a
(09:29):
dependency on alcohol and thatshakes.
And I wasn't doing those things.
I was going out two, threetimes a week, but I was the last
one standing and by that I meanwhen I'd go out I'd be drinking
till two to six in the morning.
Every time I went out I didn'tdrink and not black out and that
was really normalized for me.
So of course that would writeoff the next day and I'd still
(09:54):
be able to work and I wouldstill be able to always make it
work.
So that's okay, isn't it?
And so trying to reconcile thatwith the fact that that's not
okay and also the impact that itwould have on my husband
because I'd always see it aswell it's just fine, like I get
myself home, it's grand Whereasmy husband would worry about me
he's such an amazing man and hisconversations about this.
(10:19):
This isn't right.
You shouldn't drink to thatextent so regularly.
But then when you speak topeople about it, it's fine,
chris, we go out, we have alaugh, it's fine, chris.
And then you start to realizethat their version of staying
out late isn't your version andtheir version of what fine is is
(10:41):
very, very different.
And when it isn't, they'resaying it's fine because perhaps
they see something inthemselves as well.
So you kind of gotta unpack alot of stuff that you don't want
to be unpacking and then youhave to just go.
Do you know what?
I think I settled on drinkingproblem rather than alcoholism,
though I would be happy to callmyself an alcoholic if, if that
(11:02):
ever helped anyone, I don't shyaway from it and I certainly do
not view myself as better than I.
Just happen to not be able todrink and some people can, I
can't.
Luckily for me, I worked outthat I don't need to drink.
Sometimes I need other peopleto.
I'm already on the karaoke.
I'm already dancing the peopleto to like I'm already on the
(11:25):
karaoke, I'm already dancing,I've clearly got no filter, like
it's not necessary for me andkind of turning that corner and
understanding you can be fun,you can have a great night out,
you can do all the things thatyou ever did and not have to get
a dodgy taxi home was a bit ofa revelation, but it took time
and it took work and and youtalked about your husband taking
the time to keep saying it's,that's not okay.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
What was the actual corner?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
what oh the the moment?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
So the moment was really interesting because it
wasn't as if it was the worstthing that had ever happened or
that I'd ever done.
It just felt like enough, whichis really interesting.
So I'd gone out and we'd goneto go to a place that was having
a barbecue and some drinks, andthey didn't end up putting the
barbecue on, so I just had redwine and then we moved on to
(12:13):
another place and then I hadeven more red wine.
My husband had gone home bythis point.
I joined some other friends andI got into the taxi.
Apparently, I don't know, Idon't remember this.
What I remember is being in thehospital and like sobering up,
and the taxi driver had clearlythought this woman is too.
So I was told, thought thiswoman's too drunk, I'm not
(12:34):
taking her home, I'm taking herto the hospital, went home, went
to bed and then we got a knockon the door and it was the
ambulance had come around tocheck to see that I'd gotten
home, that I was okay, and Ijust remember in that moment
thinking this isn't what otherpeople do, this isn't okay and,
(12:54):
more importantly, this isn'twhat I want and if I'm trying to
have a baby, this isn't what Iwant for them, and I think it
was.
I think it was that that mademe kind of like, right, I've
gotta, I've gotta do something,so yeah not easy no, really
really hard.
There's so much.
(13:15):
I think what, um, what's reallyimportant to understand when
you give up something likealcohol is you've, you can't
just stop drinking, not if youwant it to work, or at least
sorry, I shouldn't say that insuch definite terms it's
terrible, um, for me.
I I didn't think it would behelpful to give up drinking
because I knew that I wouldspend the rest of my life
thinking I'm I'm missing out andif I gave up, I wanted to give
(13:39):
up and be happy about it.
And right now I am so muchhappier in my sobriety and
genuinely.
So I will never say I'll neverdrink again, because I think the
moment that I think that is themoment that I'm just wide open
to it, like that's an invitation, right, but instead what I know
is I'm happier not drinking.
But that means to get there Ihad to undo a lot of things Like
(14:02):
why do I drink?
Why is that important?
And they seem like reallysimple questions.
Oh, but they're not.
So there was that kind of workthat needed to be done, which
was really fortunate because itcoincided with a bit of my PhD,
where I was studyingepistemology and ontology.
So what is truth and what's thenature of being so, yeah, wow,
oh, that was not easy.
(14:22):
Took my little brain a longtime to get my head around it,
but it helped me to think aboutthe stories that I'd been told
about alcohol.
That that's what makes you fun,that's what's enjoyable.
It helped me to question thosestories.
And is that true?
Because I'm not sure that I amfun when I'm drunk and
aggressive, or when I'm drunkand crying uncontrollably, or
(14:43):
when I'm drunk and lostsomewhere in a ditch being
hauled out by the police.
I don't think that that is true.
So maybe undoing that a littlebit is really helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
And how has that sort of shaped your future?
Because you ultimatelycompleted your PhD I did indeed
Doctor ultimately completed yourPhD, I did indeed Doctor.
You became a mum and you arepassionate about an equal and
fair society, right?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, I am very much so.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
And is that driven by all of that learning and that
unpicking, pulling that thread?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, I think I was able to give up drinking because
of all of that kind of work andthose motivations as well.
I certainly didn't want tobring my son into into that kind
of drinking environment and I'mreally glad that I didn't.
It feels like, um, like a giftthat I give to me as much as a
gift that I give to him.
Um, but yeah, that kind ofthose kind of levels of thinking
(15:40):
, I suppose have just reallykind of helped an awful lot with
it.
So I would advise PhD, but onlyif you really want to do one
otherwise, like they're painful.
How many years in total?
Oh, it took me nine, nine years.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I'm literally hyperventilating inside.
I can feel it right now.
I'm a 6.0 level girl.
It's just the terrifyingthought.
I hada chat with someone not solong ago up at one of the
universities and like that we'redoing I think it's called a
living phd now or a work-basedphd.
So it's less about all thewriting, more about the doing,
and I'm like yeah, no, not in aminute, no, it's not for me too
(16:14):
much, right?
I like getting all the answerswhich is what you're doing right
no, no, no no, um, we'reunraveling PhD now.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Well, it's really interesting because I didn't
know what one was and I wasreally encouraged into it, and
that's the thing I find reallyfascinating.
I come from a council housedown in Bracknell.
People that come from mybackground don't tend to end up
with PhDs as much as perhapsother people do.
We didn't know what one was.
My dad always says the funniestthing it took him a while to
(16:46):
understand what this PhD was,and now he describes it as
Chrissy isn't the sort of doctorthat will save your life.
She's the sort that will talkyou to death.
And he's not wrong, is he?
But yeah, so it's a reallydifficult and long thing, and I
found it really difficult towrite academically.
I just was really bad at it.
(17:06):
I like storytelling in mywriting.
You can't be doing that in aPhD.
You need to be precise.
So it was.
Yeah, it's one of the best andone of the very worst things, or
one of the worst experiencesand one of the best experiences
I've ever had.
I would do it again.
Yeah, I would.
And will you?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Oh, like if I retired .
Never say never, though.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Oh, if I retired, which I don't think I'll ever do
.
But yeah, definitely do a PhDin something else.
But it teaches sorry.
Back to your point.
It teaches you how to askquestions and the thing is oh
God, I'm going to slip intoepistemology.
We can never be 100% sure thatanything's true.
So it gets you closer.
The lovely thing about a PhD is, I think, if you do it right,
(17:51):
it teaches you.
You don't know anything, andit's okay, because neither does
anyone else.
So you know just.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
That's a tote bag, quote there.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I've never heard one.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
So you talked about growing up on a council estate
in Bracknell to finding your wayinto having a PhD mental health
, alcohol, challenges along theway a mum, that's you know you
talk about.
When someone sees someone'stitle, you automatically assume
that it's that one straight path, that one clear line, privilege
(18:21):
, education, everything thatgoes with that.
Do you look at it?
Yeah, actually, actually, Ikind of do identify as a role
model no, no.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I don't know you're gonna say that no, no, I, I
don't and I, but I'm starting tothink that how to put it like
things like talking about thedrinking, I think is really
important, because I think it'sreally important for people to
see that people that can be likeyou, um, or things in you that
(18:53):
you recognize, we can have thisproblem and if that helps
someone to make it take a stepor an action, that's best for
them.
I think that's really important.
So I think I'll take role modelthere.
But it's, you know, it's likewords, like leader, isn't it?
And role model they just seemso big they're for these lofty
people that have done amazingthings inspirational influencer,
leader they're all big, aren'tthey big or bold?
(19:15):
and like I'm just doing thestuff that I find interesting
how would you describe yourselfin three words?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
oh, that's a tough one, isn't?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
it, you've got phd.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
This is easy to you.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I think oh no, I can't do that.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I can't do that.
That's more than three words.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I don't know what do you think your superpower is?
Well, resilience, without ashadow of a doubt, resilience
there's.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, like you've just got to get back up again,
that's it and and if you hadthat one sort of, one sort of
magic wand that you could dosomething and change something
today in this crazy world thatwe're in, I might need to give
you more than one wand mightknow.
I'd need a lot of onesands.
(20:08):
Where would you start?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I think probably tolerance.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I think we are where we are by design.
I think that it has served anawful lot of people to divide an
awful lot of people, and Ithink that that's really
heartbreaking, because there'salways more that we have in
common than we have, you know,the opposite of common, which I
can't think of.
And so I think, just gettingpeople to see that, just have a
look, and yeah, I think it wouldbe tolerance.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Wow, so it feels so simple.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Oh no, it's far more complicated.
There is.
You need to look at the news,don't you?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
at any given moment.
Tell us about the Centre ofBehavioural Equality.
What does that look like on aday-to-day basis?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, so we're starting up a project which
we're launching in, I think,september now with the Russell
Group University, so that'scalled Fields.
So that's all about teachingpeople how to create EDI
strategies that arecontext-driven and
research-backed.
So that's really exciting.
To create EDI strategies thatare context-driven and
research-backed, so that'sreally exciting.
We do a lot of work for clientsthrough consultancy, like the
(21:13):
City of London Corporation.
We write a commitment for them,for the construction industry,
deliver a lot of training, whichis always so much fun because
then you get to hear how peopleare thinking and feeling.
And also there's the researcharm of it, which is where we're
trying to, um, to get people tothink really behaviorally about
how we approach equality.
So quite often, when people arethinking about equality, what
(21:34):
we do is we, we think about howwe want people to act and then
we kind of give them trainingand hope that they will.
But it obviously gets a bitmore complicated.
So we use the work from my phd,which is about understanding,
about fairness, um.
So basically I'll say it thisway to you If you work for an
organisation that you perceiveto be unfair, we tend to act
really individualistically, likeI'm going to look out for me,
(21:57):
no one else is going to.
So when we're in thatindividualistic state, what we
tend to do is we think ofdifference as a threat, because
we don't know why anyone'sgetting an opportunity, so we
assume that anyone who'sdifferent is going to get more
than us.
We don't follow rules andprocedures of organizations
because we think what's thepoint?
And we tend to align toindividuals with power, which
(22:18):
means we tend to copy theirbehaviors.
So if you imagine dropping anequality and diversity
initiative into that environment, it doesn't really end well.
What we see is increasedresistance, increased hostility,
increased discrimination.
So that's a real worry, right.
But there's good news If weperceive our organizations to be
fair, we start to act reallycollectively because we think
(22:39):
what I put in, I'm going to putout again, or get out again,
sorry.
And so in those kinds ofenvironments we see differences,
opportunity, we follow rulesand policies of organizations
and, more importantly, we alignwith the goals of the
organization over individualswith power.
And what that means is we'remore likely to call those
individuals out and less likelyto copy their poor behaviors.
So that means that equalitywork has got a chance of
(23:02):
succeeding.
So for me, that's the levelthat you've got to get to first
before then you start to dothose terms like equity, which
people talk about, and alsoundoing inequality within
organizations.
So we try and kind of basicallypush for that as well and get
people to really think aboutorganizational sociology in
(23:23):
their kind of equality approach.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
And one of the things that you talk about is that you
could always talk really quiteheavily about concrete cranes,
cats or chess.
Oh yeah, I do In any particularorder.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, cats have taken a bit of a backseat because my
husband and son are allergic, sothat's heartbreaking.
I know Chess.
At the moment I'm part of atwo-woman improv show around
mixing up improv and chess,which is delightfully fun with
the wonderful Susan Q I'm sorry,susan Jackson, susie Q on my
WhatsApp, so that keeps me busybecause you've got to have a
(24:00):
hobby.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Concrete.
I love giving an interestingconcrete story.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
You can't just tease one now.
You have to give one now.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
They have to be asked for.
So do you know that if you addsugar to concrete, it will stop
it from setting?
I did not, but I do now.
Now I need another one.
Yeah, um, for fact, the otherone's too long, but I will.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I'll give you a follow-up, which is?
They once accidentally pouredconcrete into the victoria line
substation when they were Idon't know if it was Crosswell,
but there was a big project.
Concrete ended up gettingpoured in, was about to stop the
entire network from working andsomeone was like no, put sugar
in it.
So they put sugar in, mixed itup and were able to scoop it out
, as opposed to have to try andbreak it out.
So, concrete people, I'mtelling you it's the future.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Look at this.
Well see now.
I'm now going to give you yourthree words.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I think is how we would describe you you're a
builder.
I'm a builder at heart.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I'm a builder yeah, you are resilient and you are
awesome thank you, I will takethose, oh Dr.
Chrissie, thank you so much forjust being so honest, open and
sharing on in our conversationtoday.
I look forward to keeping ourconversation going and thank you
so much for joining us on thepod.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
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