We Dissent
We Dissent is a monthly law podcast hosted by two secular women, who are also attorneys at the Freedom From Religion Foundation and Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Join us as we discuss developments affecting the separation of church and state in the US Supreme Court and lower federal courts. We'll also explore other advocacy work we do to help atheists and other nonreligious people outside the courtroom. We know there are so many atheist podcasts and legal podcasts and you have a lot to choose from, but we hope you'll join us, the only legal podcast for atheists and agnostics hosted completely by women lawyers. We can't wait to start these conversations.
Episodes
Alison, Liz, and Rebecca take on the far-right pronatalism movement with guest Emily Martin, NWLC's Chief Program Officer. They explain the movement's history of racism, sexism, and eugenics, the alarming support it has in the Trump administration, and what truly pro-family policy would look like.
Background
We Dissent welcomes guest Shiwali Patel, Senior Director of Education Justice at National Women's Law Center, who walks us through the anti-trans sports ban cases currently before the Supreme Court, Little v. Hecox and West Virginia v. B.P.J. We discuss the history of Title IX and why the attack on trans sports participation is really an attack on the basis of this critical nondiscrimination law.
Backgr...
We Dissent welcomes back Alison Gill as co-host! Alison shares what she's been up to since leaving the pod, and then walks Rebecca and Liz through the state of our federal bench. We discuss federal judicial nominations from the recent presidential administrations and what it has meant or means for religious liberty and other civil rights.
Show Notes
There's no new episode this month, instead we have a special message for our listeners. We're excited to announce that Alison Gill is returning to the podcast starting in February! Additionally, the National Women's Law Center is going to be a co-sponsor of We Dissent moving forward. We have a lot of great episodes planned for 2026 and can't wait to share them with you.
Rebecca and Liz explain Landor v. Louisiana, the Supreme Court case that will decide whether a Rastafarian inmate who'd grown his dreadlocks for 20 years can sue the Louisiana prison officials who handcuffed him to a chair, held him down, and forcibly shaved him in violation of the law. They dive deep on the statute at issue in the case, the legal history leading up to this litigation, and what the oral arguments signa...
Liz and Rebecca cover Chiles v. Salazar, the case before the Supreme Court seeking to strike down a Colorado law banning mental health professionals from practicing "conversion therapy" on children. They explain the details of the case and discuss the hypocrisy of a ruling striking down the ban. They also recount the October 7th oral arguments, where the majority of justices signaled support for a ruling that will null...
Rebecca and Liz break down the strong history of courts rejecting government attempts to display Ten Commandments in public schools. They explain the seminal 1980 case Stone v. Graham, the SCOTUS cases since then reinforcing that precedent, and the growing number of states passing blatantly unconstitutional laws that force public schools to display Ten Commandments.
Read more
Rebecca and Liz commemorate the 100th anniversary of the Scopes Trial. They discuss the infamous "monkey" trial, and the history of teaching evolution in public schools. An "everything old is new again" episode, showing the impact of the Scopes trial throughout the last century and digging into the latest attempts by Christian Nationalists to inject religious teachings into science curriculum.
Rebecca and Liz explore health care sharing ministries (HCSMs) with guest, Sarah Levin. Sarah guides us through this religious billion dollar industry. We discuss what HCSMs are and what they are not, and why we need to push for them to have transparency.
Background and Resources
Liz and Rebecca explain the final three Supreme Court rulings with huge stakes for true religious freedom. They discuss the Court's continued zeal for religious favoritism in the Catholic Charities, Mahmoud, and Skrmetti rulings—further expanding exemptions from the law for religious employers, giving ultra-conservative religious parents veto power over public school curriculum, and upholding state bans gender-affirmin...
The third in the "unholy trinity" of religion clause cases from the current SCOTUS term. Liz and Rebecca discuss the case that sought to create the nation's first Catholic public charter school and the surprisingly early decision issued by a divided Court. They explain how this case came to be, what the oral arguments revealed, and the high stakes of the case for our public school system.
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Liz and Rebecca continue the SCOTUS religion cases coverage with Mahmoud v. Taylor, a case that threatens to force public school districts to bend to the will of their most conservative religious parents. They discuss how the case came to be, what the oral arguments told us, and why this case actually is about book banning and censorship.
Background...
Liz and Rebecca break down the latest Supreme Court case, Catholic Charities Bureau, Inc. v. Wisconsin Labor & Industry Review Commission. They explain how the case seeks to expand religious tax exemptions yet again, while threatening the unemployment benefits of thousands of workers. They share their analysis of the oral arguments and predictions on how the Court's decision will affect workers.
Rebecca and Liz welcome Americans United Associate Vice President of Public Policy Dena Sher to the show to discuss President Trump's spate of executive orders. Dena reminds us what executive orders are and we break down the ones that affect religious liberty and the separation of church and state.
Background
Liz and Rebecca take a break from the regular schedule to answer listener questions. They talk about how the founders viewed state/church separation, the issues our movement should focus on, and how to engage women in the cause of secularism.
Resources
SCOTUS is considering whether Tennessee's total ban on transgender medical care for minors violates the Equal Protection Clause, and Liz and Rebecca have some thoughts. They explain what the oral arguments last month revealed and what the stakes are for the real people who will be affected by the Court's decision.
Background
Liz and Rebecca process the 2024 election results. They discuss the challenges the new administration will bring, some under-the-radar encouraging election results, and how their organizations plan to continue fighting for secular democracy in the months and years ahead.
Background
Alison, Liz, and Rebecca are joined by Jenifer McKenna to talk about the billion dollar crisis pregnancy center industry and its role in the anti-abortion movement. They discuss the massive harms caused by these unregulated fake clinics, Jenifer's work on the first multi-state CPC investigation, and a new approach to exposing their unethical tactics and fighting back.
Read more
Alison, Liz, and Rebecca interview Sarah Posner, author and interviewer. They discuss the evolution of the Christian right, debate how to talk about Christian Nationalism, and break down the sky high stakes of this year's election.
Show Notes
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Sarah's ...
Alison, Liz, and Rebecca dig into Project 2025, the comprehensive transition project for the next conservative administration. They explain the project and illustrate the throughlines of its policy agenda— Christian nationalist ideology and the obliteration of the separation of church and state.
Background
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