August 14, 2024 • 46 mins
In this episode, Chrissy Rey interviews Eve Simon, founder of Eve Simon Creative, about the essential steps to take before diving into website design. Eve shares valuable insights on planning, content creation, and choosing the right platform for your website. This episode is packed with practical advice for small business owners and solopreneurs embarking on their website journey.
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Episode Transcript
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Chrissy Rey (00:09):
Hey everyone.
This is Chrissy Ray and welcomeback to Website Success.
I'm doing another interview here.
This seems to be becoming ahabit, which is a good thing.
And today I am talking with Eve Simon.
She is the founder and chiefcreative at Eve Simon Creative.
Before she started Eve Simon Creative,she spent 13 years in the agency world
(00:32):
working with just about every platformout there, and she went out on her own
in 2020 to work with small businessesand tech agencies to help them build out
their design and storytelling practice.
And just a little add on there, Ihave known Eve for, I think, 20 years.
Ish years, 20, 20 years.
And we have worked together onquite a few projects, so I'm very
(00:55):
excited to talk with her becauseshe is my favorite designer ever.
So Eve welcome.
And if there's anything you'dlike to add to that intro.
Eve Simon (01:04):
No, this is that's awesome.
And, and I think it's more than 20 years.
I don't want to, I don'twant to give us a number.
We work together.
We actually met through DCWeb Women back in the day.
And then you came onwith various companies.
I work for as a, as a contractor.
And then once I went out on my own,there was no question when I was
doing sites where I couldn't buildbecause I'm a designer, storyteller,
(01:28):
not a techie, there was absolutely noquestion that we could partner together.
And we've been doing itever since I started.
So yeah, this is awesome.
Thank you for having me.
Chrissy Rey (01:37):
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I brought Eve on because, likeI said, she's my favorite designer.
I've worked with her on numerousprojects over the years.
I think it's been since the 90s.
I want to say it's like late 90s.
It's been a little while.
I've known Eve longer than my sonhas been alive and he's almost 19.
So, and I remember when your sonwas born, so it's been a while.
(02:02):
Uh, but again, the reason, the reasonthat I asked her on is because she
really, she knows so much about design.
She's worked with so manydifferent kinds of organizations.
So I thought she would be really goodto kind of pick her creative brain, to
see what she has to say about design.
And this, this is a topic that alot of people have trouble with.
So I guess Eve, the, the big question,my first question is when you're
(02:26):
getting ready to make a website, solet's say that you're DIYing it or you
may be thinking of hiring somebody,but you're just getting started.
What should you plan forbefore you get started?
Eve Simon (02:38):
This is a controversial question, I will tell you, because
I don't want to say age, but I'm OG.
I'm an OG designer.
I've been doing this for over 25 years.
For me, when you get started, I don'tlike to jump right into the pretty stuff.
Because that doesn'thelp you in the long run.
And this is something that clients of allsizes, when I worked at an agency and we
(03:01):
were working with a, you know, $250,000project for a big name nonprofit versus
now I work with an independent personfor considerably less, you gotta do the
unsexy stuff first and every website'sgoing to start with goals and audiences.
You can make art without that, butyou can't design something functional
without knowing those two things.
(03:22):
And by that, I mean, why are youdoing it and who are you doing it for?
It's just really that basic.
It doesn't have to bea big fancy document.
It doesn't have to be,you know, all that stuff.
It just needs to be what areyou trying to achieve with this?
Cause obviously you'redoing it for something.
And if you're not go read abook, because it's a lot of work.
(03:43):
If you don't have a reason to do it,and then who is it for, you know, it's,
you're going to get a very differentoutcome if you're doing it for a
nonprofit audience than maybe Coca Cola,or you're going to be doing it to get
clients versus you're going to do itfor individual students, for example.
So you got, you got to get allthat, that out of the way, figure
out your goals and audiences.
(04:04):
And then what I've learnedin this industry is you got
to figure out your story.
And story has a lot of differentwords that you can call a brand.
You can call it story.
You can call it brand.
Your personal journey, whatever it is,your story is going to determine a lot
of the goals in the audiences as well.
But without it, you got no structure.
(04:24):
I'm one of those people who feels thatstructure makes you more creative.
So if you have guardrails, and you'regoing to do this to this, and you're
achieving this, then you can fill inwith all the different colors and all
the pretty stuff, but if you don'thave a structure and it's open ended,
then you're going to be in trouble.
So I figure out who it's for, figure outwhat you're doing, figure out what you're
(04:44):
trying to say, what your story is and,and what your selections of structure.
When we talk about navigation,you, you've got to know what pieces
are going to build your story.
Unlike a lot of print pieces.
Um, when you open a magazineand you see things in order, you
don't see a website in order.
So you gotta assume that peopleare gonna have to know about you
(05:05):
coming in from different places.
So that's also something to think about.
That gets more complex.
Only then can you start reallythinking about the pretty stuff.
You gotta think about structureand intent and all that.
Once you get into the pretty stuff,that's what people call brand.
I call story, but it's brand.
But knowing what colors representyou is probably one of the
(05:27):
more challenging things you cando at this phase of the game.
Because if you haven't donethe unsexy work, you may
just think it's a preference.
And it's like, Oh, I like purple.
I mean, I'll tell youpersonally, I love purple.
If I had my druthers, every site I didwould be purple, but I'm a designer.
(05:47):
So my job is not my personal thing.
It's for someone else.
It gets tricky when you are the someoneelse doing your own website, picking these
things and picking these intents from aposition of not personal preference, but
maybe business need or business preferenceis going to be the biggest challenge
I think you have when you get started.
(06:08):
You may not know what your typographyis, you may not know what the right
fonts to choose from, you don'tknow what the colors are, but every
selection that you make should havean intent and a reason in my mind.
There are going to be a lot of designerswho will, who will tell you opposite and
you start with the pretty and all that,and you back into the other stuff, but for
all the work that you and I have done over20 plus years, we know what happens at the
(06:30):
end when you do that which is, it doesn'tachieve anything, or suddenly they're
like, Oh, we need to add something.
Which would have been mucheasier in the beginning.
Chrissy Rey (06:40):
Right, yeah.
Yeah, and I'll add a little plug herebecause I do have on Website Success
Academy in the resources, I've got aWebsite Success Blueprint that basically
covers a lot of what Eve just talkedabout as far as the upfront stuff.
So it goes into, first ofall, what is your offer?
(07:02):
What are, what are you tryingto do like in the first place?
Not even your goal yet,but what is your offer?
What are the features andbenefits of your offer?
And then what are your goals?
Who is your target audience?
Creating an ideal client avatar and, andthinking about what does that ideal client
need to see in order to work with you.
So even thinking about what yourcontent is going to be, before you
(07:25):
get to even think about what yourlogo is going to look like or which
colors you're going to use, but that's,for me, that's like the third phase.
So I, cause I usually do planningand then content and then the design.
So that's right.
You got to wait to actually comeup with the brand and the design.
If you have to have thoseother things in place first.
Eve Simon (07:46):
And some people may not like to hear that.
It's hard to hear, but can I canalso put off somebody saying,
Oh, I'm not a designer or, Oh,this is too much work to do.
I guarantee you that you will reap thebenefits, even if it's the world's most
simple site, because then it'll be fastin theory, then you just get some quick
answers, you know what you need to do.
And you have a blueprint and thoseguideposts to help you through it.
(08:09):
I mean, It's probably a very controversialthing for a visual person to say,
don't jump right into the visual.
But I think it'll be easier for mostof most people who are listening here
to get some of that stuff out of theway and actually build some confidence
in yourself and in what you're doing.
It's like, Oh, I doknow what I want to do.
(08:29):
And then within that process, someideas will come at you, which include
color and maybe include imagery,maybe include typography, but you
sort of can't jump right to it.
So, um, thank you for, for havingan entire set for that because not
everybody wants to think that way.
Chrissy Rey (08:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I will add that for, for anybodythat's having trouble getting started with
figuring all that out, if you at leastknow the basics, if you've got like some
inkling of what you need, as far as likewhat your offer is and just kind of some
rough idea of who your target audience is,you can use AI to help you refine that.
You can use ChatGPT or claude.ai.
(09:07):
And you can, you can bounceideas off of it and say this,
you know, this is what I think.
Can you expand on it?
Can you tell me what you think theirchallenges and pain points are?
And you obviously want toconfirm that with real humans
and make sure that it's accurate.
But I've, I, in my experience, it's prettygood at guessing that kind of information
(09:30):
because it's been trained on a lot ofthe information that's on the internet.
So it, it, I found it to bepretty good at figuring out.
At least the paid versionsthat I'm using are pretty good.
I haven't even tried it with the freeversion, but it's worth trying it out if
you need somebody or something to bouncethose ideas off of to figure that out.
Eve Simon (09:50):
I think that's also a good point, too, because sometimes
you can feel very isolated andvery alone when you're doing this.
Well, AI scares the hellout of me sometimes.
This is an interesting use of itwhere you can actually bounce things
off of somebody who's not going tojudge you and, and it also builds
your confidence saying, I don't reallydon't know what I'm talking about.
Well, I, if you, when you put thesethings in, AI is going to tell you,
(10:12):
you do know what you're talking about.
And then help you refine that.
So I think that that's actually,if you're sitting by yourself, and
it's like, I can sit and talk tomyself, or I could talk to an AI.
Yeah.
Maybe that is a helpfulapproach to some of this stuff.
Chrissy Rey (10:25):
Yeah.
And I think it's really good because alot of, at least a lot of people that
I work with, they're solopreneurs.
They're working independently.
It's just them.
And They may not really have somebodyto bounce ideas off of all the time.
They might, you know, they might havea business bestie or somebody that they
can talk to, but I work from home.
I am in my basement in my office and I,some days I don't even leave the house.
(10:51):
Some days I don't go anywhere.
And so sometimes it helps to have that AI.
I do actually run the things past humansthat are in the target audience to sort of
confirm what, what the AI is telling me.
Cause sometimes AI makes stuffup, but it is known to do that.
You gotta be careful, but youknow, it's good to have that when,
(11:11):
when you're working independently.
Eve Simon (11:12):
I think that's an interesting way of thinking about it.
I like when you say talking aboutrunning past people in your target
audience, because that's goingto determine so many things.
Because you do have toteach an AI some things.
And then if you ask like yourmother, what do you think about this?
She'll be like, ohdarling, it's wonderful.
But that's not your audiencewho's going to say, you know what?
(11:33):
That color actually grosses me out.
And it's like, ah, right.
Or that's not what I mean.
So so I think that that'smaybe a very good step.
And then that builds your confidenceand saying, OK, well, I've
determined who I need to talk to now.
Mm hmm.
But I do think you need to makethat next step to talk to somebody.
Chrissy Rey (11:50):
What would you say is a good process?
I know we kind of talked about it sortof high level, but what are some other
things that people should do beforethey get into creating their brand?
And then maybe a little bit of whatthey should do when they get to
the point of creating their brand?
Eve Simon (12:05):
This is also going to be controversial because you got
to, you got to pick a platform.
You got to kind of know how thisis going to go out in the world.
And normally when you're also pickinga platform, you've got to think
about your presence and that's a URL.
So that's a www.
evesimoncreative.
com.
You know, what is it, how arepeople going to get to you?
(12:27):
So again, maybe that's again, theunsexy stuff, but understanding
how it's going to be built on what.
And how people get to it.
I think that's probably thefirst thing that goes in your
mind with all this other stuff.
And it helps with story.
It helps with, you know, I, I couldhave made myself not eve simon creative.
And I actually went back and forthover, do I name a company as a
(12:48):
company name for design stuff?
With just me, cause I'm a solopreneur.
And then finally it's like, then, youknow, you go through the process saying,
you know what, no, I'm going to do this.
And because I'm a visual designer andWordPress scares me, which is why I
work with you so much, and I send youprojects that are built on WordPress.
If I'm going to build this myself, I gotto use a platform that I'm comfortable
(13:10):
with that works with my designer brain.
And it's suitable to my skills, which wecan get into later, which one I chose.
So I think that that's an importantpiece to figure out, like,
how is this going to be done?
Because the worst thing is that you go doall this other stuff and then you're like,
now what, how do I get it out of here?
Onto us out of your brain.
Sorry, I'm pointing to myhead, uh, to the screen.
(13:33):
And, and that can be dauntingif you're not in this industry.
So take, like, it's a smallstep to be able to say, it's
a small step, but a big step.
It's a small thing to say, I'mgoing to do it on Squarespace
and my URL is going to be X.
Dude, you've done a lot already.
So, so small is big and, andto, and congratulate yourself
for, for doing things like that.
So that's how I would start is to, is tothink again, that's how my brain works.
(13:56):
I think holisticallyabout the whole thing.
And I think about what we're tryingto achieve and then sort of whittle
yourself down to specificities, which getinto visual design, but don't go right
at it and do the things that make youcomfortable and where your skills live.
Be comfortable asking for helpfrom people who are the experts.
I think that's something importantfor a DIYer who sometimes thinks,
(14:18):
well, I'll just figure it out.
And most of the time you can.
But you're gonna hit something you can't.
How many times have I sent you anemail that says, How do I do this?
Yeah.
Yes.
What is this?
Yes.
Or am I wrong to think this?
So it, but it takes a while in thisindustry and it takes a while, you
know, maybe if you DIY, it's yourfirst project to gain that confidence.
(14:40):
So I think anything you can do thatit's within a comfort level that you
can do and put a stake in the groundis a step further down the road.
And you can, then if you don't.
Chrissy Rey (14:50):
And I, and I will throw in here.
Choosing your platform, so whicheverwebsite you're building, whichever
website builder you're going touse, that's a really big thing.
And it's a really hard decisionfor a lot of people to make.
So if you've done that, bravo.
You've done, you've done one of thehardest things that you've had to do.
But I want to make sure beforeyou pick your platform that you've
(15:14):
done the research to figure out ifthe platform is going to work for
you for at least a little while.
It doesn't have to work for youforever, but it should work for
you for at least, at least, youknow, the next couple of years.
Uh, and you need to make sure thatit will do everything that you think
you're going to need to do in the nextcouple of years, as far as the website.
(15:35):
It doesn't have to do everything.
I know I've worked with a lot ofclients and a lot of potential
clients who, they want to picka system that does everything.
So it does their website, all oftheir courses, their membership,
their email marketing and their CRM.
And I, I'm not a fan of puttingeverything, like putting all
of your eggs into one basket.
(15:55):
Because if you have a platformthat does everything, it probably
doesn't do everything really well.
It probably does like one or twothings really well, and then the
rest of it doesn't do very well.
So you might need to pick like sort of thebest in class for each of those things.
And that's tricky.
It's hard to find that, especiallyif you don't have the experience.
So definitely do yourresearch, talk with experts.
(16:18):
I'm, I'm available.
If anybody wants to bounce ideas off ofsomebody besides AI, I I'm here to help.
So, and she's definitely not an AI.
I will tell you that.
Are you sure?
Unless you become an AI over 20years, you didn't start as one.
Yeah, no, I didn't start as one.
Yeah, we've actually met in person.
(16:39):
So yeah, there is that.
Yes.
As part of the process, , because I,I've worked with, with You know, I've,
I've worked with other designers.
Don't let it, I know, but I've, I'veworked with designers who want the, the
content done before they do any design.
And I've worked with designers who wantto do the design before they do the
(16:59):
content, which, which do you fall into?
Eve Simon (17:03):
I'm going to give you the answer that you're going to hate.
And then your listeners are, Hey,it's going to depend, uh, depend
on how much content you have.
It depends on how much you alreadyhave and need to be rewritten.
I mean, there's something that'sout there called the content audit.
That helps you determine if you have anexisting site that you're redesigning.
This is based on a redesign.
What's going to stay.
You determine sort of stay, gorewrite and, and their technical
(17:28):
challenges to the go part that we,we would deal with another time.
I am of the, the mindset that howeverit happens, you need your content by the
time the website is ready to be tested.
How you do that can vary.
If you do all the content upfront and that's the writing.
(17:48):
And that's, that's evengoing back to the high level.
What is, what are your buckets?
You know, it, is there an about section?
Is there case study section?
Is there services?
You know, what, what are all the thingsthat are going to be part of that?
Sometimes from a design perspective, it'sgood to have a estimate of amount of text.
Like when you're designing somethingthat's going to have an image
(18:10):
and a promo, but you've designeda promo that's a paragraph.
Content comes back three paragraphs.
That's a problem.
So you want to get some ofthat crap out of the way.
So you need to knowsort of relative sizes.
And if it means you use a placeholder,which I'm not a huge fan of,
I'm a fan of using real content.
But if you have to use a placeholder untilthat content is finalized, so be it, but
(18:32):
it should, it should duplicate the generalsize, how much you're going to need to do.
You and I both know that thething that holds up website
launches more than anything elseisn't technology, isn't design.
It's content.
Oh yeah.
And it's people who realize by thetime the site gets to them to test
that like, Oh, I need to write stuff.
(18:55):
So 100 percent it needs to bedone early on in this process.
How it's done can vary based onwhere you are in the product.
If you're in a brand new website, Iwould say you probably write it first.
If you're coming at it from a redesign,I would say get the content audit
down so you know what's staying,what's going, what's going to be
rewritten, what the approximatelengths are before you hit design.
(19:17):
Okay.
Sometimes.
There are multiple processesthat can be done simultaneously.
So if you're the type of person, it'slike, okay, I'm going to go, we're
all in agreement to where we're going.
I'm going to go to the rightand visually design it.
You're going to go to theleft and write the stuff.
We'll come back together whenthe site is going to be built
and then we'll plug it in.
Chrissy Rey (19:38):
But if you're doing it on your own, you got to do
one of, one of the other first.
I mean, You could split it andyou could do a little bit of one
and then a little bit of anotherand then going back and forth.
I don't recommend doing that personally.
Eve Simon (19:51):
I don't either.
I don't either.
I think it's
So, so that, so we'll amend that.
So then, if it's by yourself, I say yougotta do at least the first draft of your
content before you, before you design.
At least the first draft andunderstanding content on, on a word
document or in a Google page orwhatever it is, is very different
(20:12):
than when you put it in your website.
And suddenly you put it in your websiteand you go, Oh, that's what that means.
So you, there may be two roundtwo or round three where the
content's edited on your platform.
But.
If you don't have something,you can't edit it.
So, if you're by yourself and you gotno one else to help with, and you're
not dealing with a solopreneur who'shelping you moderate this, and they'll
(20:36):
go off to design and you do the copy.
In that case, I would say, getthat first draft done first.
And it can be helpful.
It's like when you do your structureand understand what your pieces
are going to be, start writing.
And start pulling, you know,looking for your sources
saying, God, I don't have that.
Maybe that's in my resume or maybeit's on my LinkedIn bio, you know,
start pulling and literally justcut and paste, cut and paste.
(20:59):
Just get it down on paperand then you can refine it.
I mean, that's, that's just the writingprocess, which can be again, daunting.
Yes.
If you're not an author, take breaks.
I will advocate for that throughoutall of this, that if you're feeling
overwhelmed, just walk away and, andhave a glass of water or do something and
then come back to it and it'll feel moremanageable, but take it to appreciable
(21:23):
chunks, and this can be a big chunk.
This is a, maybe the center part,part of your website, more so than
visual design, which is hard to hear.
If you think that design is goingto solve everything, it'd be in a
beautiful coat of paint and, and, andlipstick on a pig will solve everything.
It doesn't.
It's your content that'sactually making the difference.
Right.
So getting that under your belt, if you'restarting from scratch, getting that under
(21:46):
your belt is, is a good place to start.
So you've turned me around.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chrissy Rey (21:51):
And, and even so, even when, so when I work with clients that, where
I build the website for them, we, Whenwe're doing a project where we're only
doing the build for them and they'reproviding us with their graphics, their
design, their colors, their logo andeverything, they've already got all that.
The content, that's a lot of timesthe hardest part for them, but we
(22:15):
won't actually start building anymoreuntil they've delivered their content.
So we'll give them templatesto put all their content into.
I give them Google Docs to putall their content into and I'll
create a sitemap for them and.
And tell them which pages theyneed to write and give them.
Yeah.
The, the templates have.
Instructions for writing what likewhat kind of content needs to be on
(22:36):
each type of page like your aboutpage and your services page and things
like that, but I will not start.
I will not push one pixel until theyhave delivered their content because
I, there are, I've worked with clients.
I've got a client right nowwho was supposed to deliver.
It's currently July.
They were supposed to deliver theircontent in, I think it was April.
(22:59):
And we were supposed to launchtheir website in June, and I
still don't have their content.
Yeah.
So I'm still waiting on it.
Eve Simon (23:07):
And the point there is well taken, because even if
they say, just go, I'll work onit, just get it, get it ready.
It's still not going to launch, guys.
You're still going to have, you know, evenif it was just difficult to build when you
don't even know have a sense of what thecontent is because you don't know if it's
going to be three paragraphs or two lines.
Right.
So, so know that theend result is the same.
(23:31):
If you wait to the very end toget your content, your website's
going to be on hold anyhow.
So you might as well just do it inthe deadlines that are, it's hard.
I, I a hundred percent.
It's a hard thing to do.
And again, it's the samekind of brain thing.
Like, some people are not,can't do writing and think that
writers have to do writers.
If this is writing, this is about you.
You should be able to, to,to get your story out there.
(23:54):
And one thing I will say heretoo, which is also saying a
lot of controversial things.
Don't make the perfectthe enemy of the good.
And this is going to bethroughout the process.
This is in design.
This is in writing.
Because I know people who get paralysiswhen they can't finish something.
Just get it done.
It's, it's, it's a first draft.
Actually, the, the guy who ran theWashington Post called reporting the
(24:15):
newspapers the first draft of history.
I mean, so even they have a firstdraft, get the first draft done, and
then, and then there can be changesdown the road, but, but you have to.
Chrissy Rey (24:27):
Yeah.
And one thing to remember abouta website is that it's updatable.
You can change the contentafter you've launched.
So like, like you've said, itdoesn't need to be perfect.
It just, you just need to have itand have it be good enough to launch.
And then if you want to makeit perfect later, you can do
that and you can update it.
(24:47):
It's not like a printed document whereyou put it out there and it's out there
as it is forever, unchangeable, untilyou go through it with a marker or
something or print a new version of it.
But it's relatively easy formost websites to, to change what,
what the content looks like.
So definitely, definitely need it.
Make it get it up there.
Eve Simon (25:08):
Get it up there.
Yeah.
And the codicil to that is youjust mentioned about updating
the website should never be done.
So if you say that's done, we gotto have a conversation because it's
a starting point and the beauty ofall these digital things because one
you can change things, but two, youcan put it out there and test it.
(25:28):
So do it the first timeand say, Okay, here I am.
And they go, Oh, I thought you did X.
I forgot about doing that.
Or I thought that you'remore positioned like this.
You then can start making refinements.
And then in three months, sixmonths, maybe there's at some
point you have a plan where youfeel strong enough to do it of how
(25:49):
frequently you're going to change it.
Maybe there's like, I just, I justwas interviewed by fast company
for something about my podcast.
And I made sure that before thepod before that was released, I
made some changes to the website.
Because it had advancedfrom that period of time.
And it was going to be somethingthat people were going to see.
And I wanted to refinethe story a little bit.
But that had been up like three years.
(26:10):
And it was time to make a couple tweaks.
So you're the audience or whoever'sgoing to see your website.
Because if we do this right, it is amarketing channel amongst other marketing
channels that drive people to it.
People are going to see this andthey're going to have opinions.
And you got to encourage that.
And know that the next step isjust phase two, and then there's
(26:30):
phase three, and then there'sscalability to infinity kind of thing.
Chrissy Rey (26:35):
Now, if somebody is DIYing their brand, their website,
they're just trying to DIY everything.
Do you think that it would help themto have a brand board or a brand guide
or something like that, where they'recreating a document that sort of
documents everything about their brand?
And if you think it's a good idea,how would somebody that's DIYing
(26:57):
it go about making one of those?
Eve Simon (26:59):
These are all so very good questions.
Brand nomenclature gets weirdbecause there's, when you have a
branding agency, they're going to useeverything with brand in front of them.
They have a brand board.
They're going to have a brand document,a brand vision, and all this stuff.
Website design gets a littledifferent because there's a lot
of feel when it comes to engagingwith a digital product that way.
(27:21):
So for me, when I'm working with myclients, more often than not, I do
something that I call a mood board.
And, and I find that even thenomenclature of that eases people's
minds just a little bit, because it'snot, it doesn't have to be scary.
And it, and it reflects a feeling.
It doesn't need to reflectspecificity for me.
(27:42):
Sometimes I go into a couple of details,like, um, I need to know what your
headlines going to look like, or whatdoes a button look like, but for the most
part, those come in at the dead last,it's all about what is the environment.
I think this is a good time for me tomention that my training is actually
in theatrical lighting design.
So that might help in why I do it thisway, because I came from a background
(28:03):
where everything was literally air andthere was nothing that you could touch.
So how do you make a feeling whenthere's nothing you can touch, which
is an interesting challenge on the web.
So I found that mood boards.
Do that for me.
I do them in, in Photoshop.
I do them in, you know,you can do them in Figma.
You can do them in a lot of thingsthat you can start taking digital
(28:24):
pieces and start combining them.
I'll give you one example that I hadrecently with a client that changed her
mindset about what the website neededto do, that she felt that she had a
very nostalgic old school feel to her.
And that is typified for her in likecolors and photos and faded things and
(28:46):
pearl necklaces and, and a black and, andwhite polka dotted dress by the seaside.
There was this things that felt that way.
But as a designer, when you look at that,it feels too on the nose because then you
go to a website and go, Oh, she's talking,you know, maybe she's selling something
that's nostalgic versus, you know, It'sher soul out there that is nostalgic.
(29:06):
So the process of doing a mood boardtogether actually solidified that for her,
because the pictures that I chose wereof her, she actually did a photo shoot.
That's another thing that, thatsometimes content can be written,
but content can be visual.
So she had done some photos thatreflected who she was by the sea in
this dress with her pearls on, andthen it was mixing that with things
(29:28):
that the colors that, that felt olderthat didn't feel bright and modern
that felt older, but still relevant.
You know, all these things.
And it took a little while and itdoesn't have to come to you right away.
I did the walk awaything a couple of times.
Typography that fits old, old school,but yet she's, she's now, I mean, 2024.
(29:54):
And so once I did that and Ishowed it to her, she was like,
I get it now that I don't need tohave that level of specificity.
I can suggest it.
And so like little thingslike type treatments or photo
treatments ended up like Polaroids.
And the pictures in the Polaroids werefaded a little bit because that gave
us a little bit of the feeling butdidn't have to say, I'm an old picture.
(30:16):
So the mood board got us probablythree quarters of the way because
then I could follow the feeling ofthat board when it came to actually, I
built the site in Squarespace for her.
But if we hadn't done that.
All I would have had in myhead was she wants nostalgia.
She wants something thatfeels homey and comfortable.
That doesn't mean anythinguntil you actually see it.
(30:36):
So I will always do a brand board.
I will always do a mood board rather.
Brand boards are a little differentbecause they get to the specificity of who
you are sometimes through logo and type.
They do color palettes.
It can be very, not technical, butit, it, it, I think it's a little
scarier, especially if you're a DIYer.
Now, if you don't have access toPhotoshop, you can do it in Canva.
(30:58):
A lot of people are using Canva.
You can also just go get magazines,and tear things out and get a piece
of paper and just put them down andstart seeing what works for you.
And maybe then that movesdigital at some point.
There's lots of different ways to do it.
But I think it's an important step tostart getting, once you get sort of
the unsexy stuff out of the way, getyour visual stuff on the table somehow.
(31:19):
And I think, I think a moodboard is a really good way to
do it, to get started with it.
Now, if you come at it with somethingthat's already defined, like I
actually have a client right nowwho had all of his stuff done.
He has colors.
He has a logo.
He has a feeling.
But it's again, a little on thenose and I'm in the process of
doing a mood board with him to tryto find a way to pull things out.
(31:41):
So we're not looking sodeep down to specificity.
He actually, he's a coach that hasa very sort of spiritual sense to
himself, himself purposely, but notputting the spirituality on the client.
And it came out in a meeting that he'slike, Oh, so when I put something that's
like, you know, it was a beautiful sunsetor somebody sitting by the sea, they think
I'm selling things that are based on that.
(32:03):
They don't believe that I'm sellingthis overall holistic feeling.
And it and it's suddenly athing went off in his head.
He's like, Okay, we can'tbe that on the nose.
It has to be something that we we findthe way into it slightly differently,
which doesn't mean we abandon it.
So this is an important stageto start sussing that stuff out.
And again, each of thesecould be difficult.
(32:23):
I'm not going to say they're not.
But once you're past it, you'lllook at all the things you have.
And then actually doing the final work isless onerous because you've already made
decisions whether you realize it or not.
Chrissy Rey (32:34):
If somebody doesn't have their logo, their colors, their fonts
or anything like that, do you thinkit would be helpful as part of the
process of creating those, becauseagain, they're probably going to
DIY or DIY most, some or all of it.
Do you think it would be helpful todo that mood board before they even do
that process where they create that,the logo and everything like that?
Eve Simon (32:55):
Yes and no.
Sometimes one can inform the other.
Sometimes you can sort of say, Oh, wow,now that I've determined that it's,
that it's not the Pearl nostalgia,but it's a, it's a different kind of
nostalgia that can determine maybewhat your, where your logo goes.
More than not, if you're DIYing it,you're going to be doing a logo with type.
(33:17):
Just just picking it a typeset and thatyou may pick something because that's
what you think it is about time Youactually start figuring out some of the
other pieces of it doesn't fit anymore.
So I think that that's I hate to leavenuance and I hate to leave this or that If
you feel you can't go right at it, don't.
Do the mood board andthen maybe back into it.
(33:37):
The other thing about that that I'mgoing to say is that the choices that
you make at this point shouldn't bearbitrary and they also shouldn't be
driven by your personal preferences.
And this is again controversy that peopleare going to come here saying, but it's
my website and I want it to be my stuff.
It's your website for an audience.
So what does the audience want?
What do you need the audienceto feel kind of thing?
(34:00):
And, and, you know, when you're startingto pick things, it can start to feel
arbitrary, saying, well, I like orange.
I guess I'll use orange.
Well, maybe that's not the best forhow you're presenting your story.
So again, better to makethose decisions early.
Have the fight with yourself early, too.
Because then it's like personal versusbusiness let's you get that out of
the way rather than you're facing downa color picker in your platform, and
(34:25):
it says what are you color palette?
You're like, I don't know Iguess we'll take these five.
You know, everything.
Everything has a meaning.
Color in particular has a meaning.
And if you're putting things on yourwebsite that at least three quarters
of them aren't there for a good reason,you gotta go back and rethink it.
You know, the color, colorchoices, frankly, are personal
preferences, but then there'salso color that means something.
(34:47):
So you may love red, but redis the color of emergencies.
So if you're, if you're gonna haveall this red on your website, you may
not realize that you're pushing peopleaway then drawing people closer to
you because you happen to like red.
And that's part of the research too.
There are plenty of websitesout there that are gonna tell
you what color means, right?
No, just just do a Google and I'll tellyou a how you pick color and how you
(35:08):
pick colors that go together, becausethere's kind of color palette software
that you can pick and there's triadsand there's complementary colors And
there's all these different ways to do it.
I actually wrote you wrotesomething for you about color.
It's it's really really personal I'm Butit's also got to be brand consistent
and it has to work because they'recolors that twitch against each other.
(35:31):
They call that vibration.
So you could pick a color, it'slike, Oh, it looks good together.
But when you put it in the context,it's like, Whoa, I can't read anything.
Or why does my head hurt kind of stuff.
So do the research and figureout what you're picking and what
means what you think it means.
If you say, I am here to helppeople buy better apples.
Do research about about purchasing.
(35:53):
What colors encourage people to purchase?
What colors encourage people tofeel comfortable or what is a
what is an apple mean to them?
Is it you know freshnessbecause it's picked?
Is it baked into a pie so it's homey?
I mean there's just lots of stuff and andyou'll start winnowing it down based on
the research you find just be patient.
Chrissy Rey (36:11):
So, Eve and I were just talking offline and we decided she
has so much information to share andI would love to have Her share more
information than, than what we'vebeen able to cover in this episode.
And I don't want theepisode to go too long.
So we've decided that we are going tobreak the questions up a little bit.
We're going to have a part two.
(36:32):
So let me ask my lastquestion for part one.
Again, keeping in mind that a lot of thefolks that are listening are solopreneurs,
they're doing this by themselves.
They're probably going touse a template of some sort.
So can you, for, foranybody that doesn't know.
Can you explain what a template is whenit comes to a website and what are some of
(36:53):
the differences between using a templateand a completely custom web design?
Eve Simon (36:59):
Deep breath.
Template can be a dirty word causepeople look at that and they think
about like a PowerPoint templatewhere you pick from the thing.
And it's, um, in the webworld, it doesn't have to be.
Everything is a starting point.
So whether you start with a templateand refine it, or you're fresh and
you design it and then you haveto figure out how to build it.
(37:22):
For a DIYer I think startingwith a template is probably going
to be the safest thing becauseyou can get a site up fast.
You can see a bunch of differentways that it's accomplished.
And most importantly with templates, thereare usually built in mobile versions.
And if anybody here who doesn't,doesn't care and say, ah, just a phone,
(37:43):
everything is going to be in a phone.
I'm surprised that there's stilldesktop websites right now in 2024.
Yeah.
So, so good, good templates, um, aredone where they have well articulated,
mobile versions that you can start with.
Everything is a starting point.
That you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
I think custom design is fabulous,if you are set up for it.
(38:06):
But, it is often reinventing thewheel, because it's been done before.
And, and nothing on the webhas not been done before.
So, take the win.
But, don't take it as is.
So that's the caveat here.
Because, there's template sites,like, I personally use Squarespace.
Because, you know, the Squarespace,there's Wix, there's Webflow.
(38:27):
There's a lot of those that are similarin, in, in the, how they're done.
I find that the interface is intuitivefor my brain when it comes to Squarespace.
And it comes with built in templates.
And you can actually, when you log intoSquarespace to set something up, you
can select a little icon that showsit as a desktop or select an icon
that says, this is what it's going tolook like on a phone and it allows you
(38:47):
to make changes on the phone versionthat don't impact the desktop version,
which as you know, when you're doing.
Media queries raw,that's a pain in the ass.
So, so, most of these, likeSquarespace, used to be able
to, they did all these differenttemplates out of different names.
And there are different versions of it.
And then they all had their owncustomized color palette with it.
(39:08):
They had customized like where, howimages are done, customized typography.
They're now doing a version ofSquarespace that they're all following
sort of one, but then they're modified.
So even a template, if you choosea Squarespace template, someone has
made a decision about what that isbased on one template, pretty much.
So at this point, it becomesnot even selecting a template.
(39:29):
It becomes selecting a style and muchlike when you start looking at like a
stock site, you look at all those images.
The images are done with theintent of a photographer.
These templates are done withthe intent of the template maker.
So, I would say if you're going to dothis, you're going to pick, do a DIY,
pick a template that's pretty close.
Some of them will have drop down menus.
(39:49):
Some of them will have big, wide, fullbleed images, which is edge to edge.
Some of them will not.
Pick something that is close.
Make sure you look at it in theversion, because it'll give you an
option to preview in Squarespace,and I assume in Wix and others.
Preview it and look at it in thedesktop and the mobile, because
changes will happen between them.
Make sure you're comfortable withit, understanding, if you can, in
(40:10):
the back of your mind that you'reprobably going to change the type.
You're probably going tochange the color palette.
You're going to do differentimages, kind of thing.
I recently just did a, evaluation forsomebody who hired a designer who just
took a template, left the colors, left thetype, left everything positioned where it
was and just subbed in different things.
(40:30):
And it shocker shocker doesn't work.
I mean, it's a website And it does thethings, but her unique content and her
story wasn't even close to represented.
Right.
So that's what you don't want.
That is a big exnay on the, on theemplatay, whatever you want to call it.
But pick a template thatyou feel comfortable with.
(40:51):
It can be done in WordPress too.
There's so many WordPresstemplates out there.
If you're feeling a little bit moredaring and you're open to some tech,
some tech changes because applyinga theme, they call them themes, as
you know, in WordPress is it a littlemore challenging than, than picking a
template, quote unquote, in Squarespace.
Which is why my brain goes towardsthat and your brain goes to the other.
(41:11):
Know yourself a little bit about whereyou feel comfortable, but don't push it.
If you're finding, if you're going downa road, let's say you're going down
the Squarespace things like, I justdoesn't, Oh, I want to, I want to have
more control because that's usuallywhat will happen is if they go with the
Squarespace, they want more control.
If they go with a WordPress, they'relike, I don't want to make all these
decisions, you know, or I don't knowhow to, I don't know how to attach
(41:32):
it to my domain kind of thing.
Squarespace helps you doa lot of those things.
So custom developmentis a wonderful thing.
When you and I have worked onprojects, most of that's custom.
Yeah.
And so, what'll happen is, we'llhave all these conversations about
the goals, and the audiences,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We'll figure out the content.
And then I've gone off and I've literallydesigned the pages in Photoshop.
(41:55):
And what is a header gonna look like?
What's a footer gonna look like?
I will document it for you.
I'll make sure you'll say this is, youknow, you can go and look at something
and say, this is the color, this isthe font, this is blah, blah, blah.
But then somebody on your end hasto freaking go and build code.
Right.
And then you open yourself up to, it'sbuilt beautifully on the desktop, but
then the mobile still has to be done.
(42:15):
And if you haven't had the time andthe budget to design the mobile,
you're like leaving that decision upto your, your developer who's like,
I don't know, I'm going to try that.
This is what we're going to do unlessyou tell me something specific.
So it, you know, there's a place for both.
My gut tells me that it is less expensiveand less onerous on your self, pick
(42:41):
a template and modify it from there.
Chrissy Rey (42:44):
Yeah, I agree.
For someone that's DIYing,templates are really the way to go.
Don't try to do something customif you're just getting started.
That's, that's my recommendation.
And we use templates.
So when, even when we do projectsfor our small business clients,
we've got packages that we do, andwe're using templates with those.
There's WordPress templates that, weshow them the library of templates.
(43:06):
And we say, pick one that is, similarto what you think you want and just,
you got to imagine it with your logo,your colors, your content in there,
your calls to action, which we'll talkabout in the second episode, but that
you got to imagine, you got to use yourimagination and think about what, what
it's going to look like with your stuff.
Eve Simon (43:25):
Right.
So, and I think to, to that end too, is alot of people try to get a little fancy.
Like I'm on a lot of Squarespacefacebook groups where they're
like, I'm using custom CSS,which is cascading style sheets.
I'm using custom type.
And then when they're like, whyis my site taking so long to load?
Because those things add weight.
And most template systems.
(43:45):
I don't know how necessarilywhat's available with WordPress,
but with Squarespace, there's alot of freaking fonts that are
available that are in Squarespace.
That if you need to go and get a customfont because you have a custom type
in your logo or whatever it is andsome, you know, it's not available.
It's not a Google font becausethey're mostly Google fonts.
I, at this juncture as a DIYer, I wouldstop and rethink it and say, is it, is
(44:07):
it really, you know, can I find somethingclose and, and, and not DIY that.
Right.
Because, because that's gonna, that opensup a can of worms because then I know
so many people who do like custom fontsbecause I have to have X, Y, and Z font.
I just, I did a project for somebodywhose son in law insisted on a certain
(44:29):
font and it had to be embedded.
And I'm like, here we go.
And it didn't work.
It's not suited for her content.
But in his brand mind, itneeded to be connected that way.
So there's always going to be discussionswith that, but yes, we both good.
We both agree that, that, thatstarting with a template site, when
(44:50):
you pick your platform, starting witha template, but mod, but modified.
Yeah, you know, modify it.
I mean, for you, when you haveyour packages, they pick their
colors, they can put their logoand they can pick their colors.
There's a couple differentoptions they can do.
You never want to do somethingwhere you don't have an option.
And you never want to do somethingthat someone chooses for you.
And you know, you're square peg roundhole because your stuff doesn't work.
Chrissy Rey (45:11):
Well, thank you so very much.
I know we've still got a lot to cover.
So make sure you come back for parttwo, and listen to Eve's thoughts on
things like What are some of the designelements that every website should have?
And what is a CTA call to action?
We're going to cover someof those questions and more.
Eve, thank you so much for talkingwith me today and for agreeing
(45:34):
to come back for a second round.
Do you have any closing thoughts?
Eve Simon (45:37):
Only that I love talking about this stuff.
I've been in thisindustry for so damn long.
So I really thank you forgiving me the opportunity to
babble about some of this stuff.
Thank you for the opportunity to do thisbecause I just live and breathe this crap.
Chrissy Rey (45:49):
Awesome.
So everybody, thank you for listening.
Make sure you come back for part two.
In a week from this episode,we'll have a part two.
So make sure you comeback and listen to it.
If you haven't already subscribed,hit that subscribe button on
whatever platform you're on.
Make sure you go to the website.
So if you want to check out theWebsite Success Blueprint that I talked
about earlier, or I've got a contentplanner, working on a brand planner
(46:13):
for folks that don't already have theirlogo and all that stuff figured out.
They're all under resourceson websitesuccessacademy.com.
So again, thanks for listening andwe'll catch you in the next episode.
Hey everyone.
This is Chrissy Ray and welcomeback to Website Success.
I'm doing another interview here.
This seems to be becoming ahabit, which is a good thing.
And today I am talking with Eve Simon.
She is the founder and chiefcreative at Eve Simon Creative.
Before she started Eve Simon Creative,she spent 13 years in the agency world
(00:32):
working with just about every platformout there, and she went out on her own
in 2020 to work with small businessesand tech agencies to help them build out
their design and storytelling practice.
And just a little add on there, Ihave known Eve for, I think, 20 years.
Ish years, 20, 20 years.
And we have worked together onquite a few projects, so I'm very
(00:55):
excited to talk with her becauseshe is my favorite designer ever.
So Eve welcome.
And if there's anything you'dlike to add to that intro.
Eve Simon (01:04):
No, this is that's awesome.
And, and I think it's more than 20 years.
I don't want to, I don'twant to give us a number.
We work together.
We actually met through DCWeb Women back in the day.
And then you came onwith various companies.
I work for as a, as a contractor.
And then once I went out on my own,there was no question when I was
doing sites where I couldn't buildbecause I'm a designer, storyteller,
(01:28):
not a techie, there was absolutely noquestion that we could partner together.
And we've been doing itever since I started.
So yeah, this is awesome.
Thank you for having me.
Chrissy Rey (01:37):
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I brought Eve on because, likeI said, she's my favorite designer.
I've worked with her on numerousprojects over the years.
I think it's been since the 90s.
I want to say it's like late 90s.
It's been a little while.
I've known Eve longer than my sonhas been alive and he's almost 19.
So, and I remember when your sonwas born, so it's been a while.
(02:02):
Uh, but again, the reason, the reasonthat I asked her on is because she
really, she knows so much about design.
She's worked with so manydifferent kinds of organizations.
So I thought she would be really goodto kind of pick her creative brain, to
see what she has to say about design.
And this, this is a topic that alot of people have trouble with.
So I guess Eve, the, the big question,my first question is when you're
(02:26):
getting ready to make a website, solet's say that you're DIYing it or you
may be thinking of hiring somebody,but you're just getting started.
What should you plan forbefore you get started?
Eve Simon (02:38):
This is a controversial question, I will tell you, because
I don't want to say age, but I'm OG.
I'm an OG designer.
I've been doing this for over 25 years.
For me, when you get started, I don'tlike to jump right into the pretty stuff.
Because that doesn'thelp you in the long run.
And this is something that clients of allsizes, when I worked at an agency and we
(03:01):
were working with a, you know, $250,000project for a big name nonprofit versus
now I work with an independent personfor considerably less, you gotta do the
unsexy stuff first and every website'sgoing to start with goals and audiences.
You can make art without that, butyou can't design something functional
without knowing those two things.
(03:22):
And by that, I mean, why are youdoing it and who are you doing it for?
It's just really that basic.
It doesn't have to bea big fancy document.
It doesn't have to be,you know, all that stuff.
It just needs to be what areyou trying to achieve with this?
Cause obviously you'redoing it for something.
And if you're not go read abook, because it's a lot of work.
(03:43):
If you don't have a reason to do it,and then who is it for, you know, it's,
you're going to get a very differentoutcome if you're doing it for a
nonprofit audience than maybe Coca Cola,or you're going to be doing it to get
clients versus you're going to do itfor individual students, for example.
So you got, you got to get allthat, that out of the way, figure
out your goals and audiences.
(04:04):
And then what I've learnedin this industry is you got
to figure out your story.
And story has a lot of differentwords that you can call a brand.
You can call it story.
You can call it brand.
Your personal journey, whatever it is,your story is going to determine a lot
of the goals in the audiences as well.
But without it, you got no structure.
(04:24):
I'm one of those people who feels thatstructure makes you more creative.
So if you have guardrails, and you'regoing to do this to this, and you're
achieving this, then you can fill inwith all the different colors and all
the pretty stuff, but if you don'thave a structure and it's open ended,
then you're going to be in trouble.
So I figure out who it's for, figure outwhat you're doing, figure out what you're
(04:44):
trying to say, what your story is and,and what your selections of structure.
When we talk about navigation,you, you've got to know what pieces
are going to build your story.
Unlike a lot of print pieces.
Um, when you open a magazineand you see things in order, you
don't see a website in order.
So you gotta assume that peopleare gonna have to know about you
(05:05):
coming in from different places.
So that's also something to think about.
That gets more complex.
Only then can you start reallythinking about the pretty stuff.
You gotta think about structureand intent and all that.
Once you get into the pretty stuff,that's what people call brand.
I call story, but it's brand.
But knowing what colors representyou is probably one of the
(05:27):
more challenging things you cando at this phase of the game.
Because if you haven't donethe unsexy work, you may
just think it's a preference.
And it's like, Oh, I like purple.
I mean, I'll tell youpersonally, I love purple.
If I had my druthers, every site I didwould be purple, but I'm a designer.
(05:47):
So my job is not my personal thing.
It's for someone else.
It gets tricky when you are the someoneelse doing your own website, picking these
things and picking these intents from aposition of not personal preference, but
maybe business need or business preferenceis going to be the biggest challenge
I think you have when you get started.
(06:08):
You may not know what your typographyis, you may not know what the right
fonts to choose from, you don'tknow what the colors are, but every
selection that you make should havean intent and a reason in my mind.
There are going to be a lot of designerswho will, who will tell you opposite and
you start with the pretty and all that,and you back into the other stuff, but for
all the work that you and I have done over20 plus years, we know what happens at the
(06:30):
end when you do that which is, it doesn'tachieve anything, or suddenly they're
like, Oh, we need to add something.
Which would have been mucheasier in the beginning.
Chrissy Rey (06:40):
Right, yeah.
Yeah, and I'll add a little plug herebecause I do have on Website Success
Academy in the resources, I've got aWebsite Success Blueprint that basically
covers a lot of what Eve just talkedabout as far as the upfront stuff.
So it goes into, first ofall, what is your offer?
(07:02):
What are, what are you tryingto do like in the first place?
Not even your goal yet,but what is your offer?
What are the features andbenefits of your offer?
And then what are your goals?
Who is your target audience?
Creating an ideal client avatar and, andthinking about what does that ideal client
need to see in order to work with you.
So even thinking about what yourcontent is going to be, before you
(07:25):
get to even think about what yourlogo is going to look like or which
colors you're going to use, but that's,for me, that's like the third phase.
So I, cause I usually do planningand then content and then the design.
So that's right.
You got to wait to actually comeup with the brand and the design.
If you have to have thoseother things in place first.
Eve Simon (07:46):
And some people may not like to hear that.
It's hard to hear, but can I canalso put off somebody saying,
Oh, I'm not a designer or, Oh,this is too much work to do.
I guarantee you that you will reap thebenefits, even if it's the world's most
simple site, because then it'll be fastin theory, then you just get some quick
answers, you know what you need to do.
And you have a blueprint and thoseguideposts to help you through it.
(08:09):
I mean, It's probably a very controversialthing for a visual person to say,
don't jump right into the visual.
But I think it'll be easier for mostof most people who are listening here
to get some of that stuff out of theway and actually build some confidence
in yourself and in what you're doing.
It's like, Oh, I doknow what I want to do.
(08:29):
And then within that process, someideas will come at you, which include
color and maybe include imagery,maybe include typography, but you
sort of can't jump right to it.
So, um, thank you for, for havingan entire set for that because not
everybody wants to think that way.
Chrissy Rey (08:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I will add that for, for anybodythat's having trouble getting started with
figuring all that out, if you at leastknow the basics, if you've got like some
inkling of what you need, as far as likewhat your offer is and just kind of some
rough idea of who your target audience is,you can use AI to help you refine that.
You can use ChatGPT or claude.ai.
(09:07):
And you can, you can bounceideas off of it and say this,
you know, this is what I think.
Can you expand on it?
Can you tell me what you think theirchallenges and pain points are?
And you obviously want toconfirm that with real humans
and make sure that it's accurate.
But I've, I, in my experience, it's prettygood at guessing that kind of information
(09:30):
because it's been trained on a lot ofthe information that's on the internet.
So it, it, I found it to bepretty good at figuring out.
At least the paid versionsthat I'm using are pretty good.
I haven't even tried it with the freeversion, but it's worth trying it out if
you need somebody or something to bouncethose ideas off of to figure that out.
Eve Simon (09:50):
I think that's also a good point, too, because sometimes
you can feel very isolated andvery alone when you're doing this.
Well, AI scares the hellout of me sometimes.
This is an interesting use of itwhere you can actually bounce things
off of somebody who's not going tojudge you and, and it also builds
your confidence saying, I don't reallydon't know what I'm talking about.
Well, I, if you, when you put thesethings in, AI is going to tell you,
(10:12):
you do know what you're talking about.
And then help you refine that.
So I think that that's actually,if you're sitting by yourself, and
it's like, I can sit and talk tomyself, or I could talk to an AI.
Yeah.
Maybe that is a helpfulapproach to some of this stuff.
Chrissy Rey (10:25):
Yeah.
And I think it's really good because alot of, at least a lot of people that
I work with, they're solopreneurs.
They're working independently.
It's just them.
And They may not really have somebodyto bounce ideas off of all the time.
They might, you know, they might havea business bestie or somebody that they
can talk to, but I work from home.
I am in my basement in my office and I,some days I don't even leave the house.
(10:51):
Some days I don't go anywhere.
And so sometimes it helps to have that AI.
I do actually run the things past humansthat are in the target audience to sort of
confirm what, what the AI is telling me.
Cause sometimes AI makes stuffup, but it is known to do that.
You gotta be careful, but youknow, it's good to have that when,
(11:11):
when you're working independently.
Eve Simon (11:12):
I think that's an interesting way of thinking about it.
I like when you say talking aboutrunning past people in your target
audience, because that's goingto determine so many things.
Because you do have toteach an AI some things.
And then if you ask like yourmother, what do you think about this?
She'll be like, ohdarling, it's wonderful.
But that's not your audiencewho's going to say, you know what?
(11:33):
That color actually grosses me out.
And it's like, ah, right.
Or that's not what I mean.
So so I think that that'smaybe a very good step.
And then that builds your confidenceand saying, OK, well, I've
determined who I need to talk to now.
Mm hmm.
But I do think you need to makethat next step to talk to somebody.
Chrissy Rey (11:50):
What would you say is a good process?
I know we kind of talked about it sortof high level, but what are some other
things that people should do beforethey get into creating their brand?
And then maybe a little bit of whatthey should do when they get to
the point of creating their brand?
Eve Simon (12:05):
This is also going to be controversial because you got
to, you got to pick a platform.
You got to kind of know how thisis going to go out in the world.
And normally when you're also pickinga platform, you've got to think
about your presence and that's a URL.
So that's a www.
evesimoncreative.
com.
You know, what is it, how arepeople going to get to you?
(12:27):
So again, maybe that's again, theunsexy stuff, but understanding
how it's going to be built on what.
And how people get to it.
I think that's probably thefirst thing that goes in your
mind with all this other stuff.
And it helps with story.
It helps with, you know, I, I couldhave made myself not eve simon creative.
And I actually went back and forthover, do I name a company as a
(12:48):
company name for design stuff?
With just me, cause I'm a solopreneur.
And then finally it's like, then, youknow, you go through the process saying,
you know what, no, I'm going to do this.
And because I'm a visual designer andWordPress scares me, which is why I
work with you so much, and I send youprojects that are built on WordPress.
If I'm going to build this myself, I gotto use a platform that I'm comfortable
(13:10):
with that works with my designer brain.
And it's suitable to my skills, which wecan get into later, which one I chose.
So I think that that's an importantpiece to figure out, like,
how is this going to be done?
Because the worst thing is that you go doall this other stuff and then you're like,
now what, how do I get it out of here?
Onto us out of your brain.
Sorry, I'm pointing to myhead, uh, to the screen.
(13:33):
And, and that can be dauntingif you're not in this industry.
So take, like, it's a smallstep to be able to say, it's
a small step, but a big step.
It's a small thing to say, I'mgoing to do it on Squarespace
and my URL is going to be X.
Dude, you've done a lot already.
So, so small is big and, andto, and congratulate yourself
for, for doing things like that.
So that's how I would start is to, is tothink again, that's how my brain works.
(13:56):
I think holisticallyabout the whole thing.
And I think about what we're tryingto achieve and then sort of whittle
yourself down to specificities, which getinto visual design, but don't go right
at it and do the things that make youcomfortable and where your skills live.
Be comfortable asking for helpfrom people who are the experts.
I think that's something importantfor a DIYer who sometimes thinks,
(14:18):
well, I'll just figure it out.
And most of the time you can.
But you're gonna hit something you can't.
How many times have I sent you anemail that says, How do I do this?
Yeah.
Yes.
What is this?
Yes.
Or am I wrong to think this?
So it, but it takes a while in thisindustry and it takes a while, you
know, maybe if you DIY, it's yourfirst project to gain that confidence.
(14:40):
So I think anything you can do thatit's within a comfort level that you
can do and put a stake in the groundis a step further down the road.
And you can, then if you don't.
Chrissy Rey (14:50):
And I, and I will throw in here.
Choosing your platform, so whicheverwebsite you're building, whichever
website builder you're going touse, that's a really big thing.
And it's a really hard decisionfor a lot of people to make.
So if you've done that, bravo.
You've done, you've done one of thehardest things that you've had to do.
But I want to make sure beforeyou pick your platform that you've
(15:14):
done the research to figure out ifthe platform is going to work for
you for at least a little while.
It doesn't have to work for youforever, but it should work for
you for at least, at least, youknow, the next couple of years.
Uh, and you need to make sure thatit will do everything that you think
you're going to need to do in the nextcouple of years, as far as the website.
(15:35):
It doesn't have to do everything.
I know I've worked with a lot ofclients and a lot of potential
clients who, they want to picka system that does everything.
So it does their website, all oftheir courses, their membership,
their email marketing and their CRM.
And I, I'm not a fan of puttingeverything, like putting all
of your eggs into one basket.
(15:55):
Because if you have a platformthat does everything, it probably
doesn't do everything really well.
It probably does like one or twothings really well, and then the
rest of it doesn't do very well.
So you might need to pick like sort of thebest in class for each of those things.
And that's tricky.
It's hard to find that, especiallyif you don't have the experience.
So definitely do yourresearch, talk with experts.
(16:18):
I'm, I'm available.
If anybody wants to bounce ideas off ofsomebody besides AI, I I'm here to help.
So, and she's definitely not an AI.
I will tell you that.
Are you sure?
Unless you become an AI over 20years, you didn't start as one.
Yeah, no, I didn't start as one.
Yeah, we've actually met in person.
(16:39):
So yeah, there is that.
Yes.
As part of the process, , because I,I've worked with, with You know, I've,
I've worked with other designers.
Don't let it, I know, but I've, I'veworked with designers who want the, the
content done before they do any design.
And I've worked with designers who wantto do the design before they do the
(16:59):
content, which, which do you fall into?
Eve Simon (17:03):
I'm going to give you the answer that you're going to hate.
And then your listeners are, Hey,it's going to depend, uh, depend
on how much content you have.
It depends on how much you alreadyhave and need to be rewritten.
I mean, there's something that'sout there called the content audit.
That helps you determine if you have anexisting site that you're redesigning.
This is based on a redesign.
What's going to stay.
You determine sort of stay, gorewrite and, and their technical
(17:28):
challenges to the go part that we,we would deal with another time.
I am of the, the mindset that howeverit happens, you need your content by the
time the website is ready to be tested.
How you do that can vary.
If you do all the content upfront and that's the writing.
(17:48):
And that's, that's evengoing back to the high level.
What is, what are your buckets?
You know, it, is there an about section?
Is there case study section?
Is there services?
You know, what, what are all the thingsthat are going to be part of that?
Sometimes from a design perspective, it'sgood to have a estimate of amount of text.
Like when you're designing somethingthat's going to have an image
(18:10):
and a promo, but you've designeda promo that's a paragraph.
Content comes back three paragraphs.
That's a problem.
So you want to get some ofthat crap out of the way.
So you need to knowsort of relative sizes.
And if it means you use a placeholder,which I'm not a huge fan of,
I'm a fan of using real content.
But if you have to use a placeholder untilthat content is finalized, so be it, but
(18:32):
it should, it should duplicate the generalsize, how much you're going to need to do.
You and I both know that thething that holds up website
launches more than anything elseisn't technology, isn't design.
It's content.
Oh yeah.
And it's people who realize by thetime the site gets to them to test
that like, Oh, I need to write stuff.
(18:55):
So 100 percent it needs to bedone early on in this process.
How it's done can vary based onwhere you are in the product.
If you're in a brand new website, Iwould say you probably write it first.
If you're coming at it from a redesign,I would say get the content audit
down so you know what's staying,what's going, what's going to be
rewritten, what the approximatelengths are before you hit design.
(19:17):
Okay.
Sometimes.
There are multiple processesthat can be done simultaneously.
So if you're the type of person, it'slike, okay, I'm going to go, we're
all in agreement to where we're going.
I'm going to go to the rightand visually design it.
You're going to go to theleft and write the stuff.
We'll come back together whenthe site is going to be built
and then we'll plug it in.
Chrissy Rey (19:38):
But if you're doing it on your own, you got to do
one of, one of the other first.
I mean, You could split it andyou could do a little bit of one
and then a little bit of anotherand then going back and forth.
I don't recommend doing that personally.
Eve Simon (19:51):
I don't either.
I don't either.
I think it's
So, so that, so we'll amend that.
So then, if it's by yourself, I say yougotta do at least the first draft of your
content before you, before you design.
At least the first draft andunderstanding content on, on a word
document or in a Google page orwhatever it is, is very different
(20:12):
than when you put it in your website.
And suddenly you put it in your websiteand you go, Oh, that's what that means.
So you, there may be two roundtwo or round three where the
content's edited on your platform.
But.
If you don't have something,you can't edit it.
So, if you're by yourself and you gotno one else to help with, and you're
not dealing with a solopreneur who'shelping you moderate this, and they'll
(20:36):
go off to design and you do the copy.
In that case, I would say, getthat first draft done first.
And it can be helpful.
It's like when you do your structureand understand what your pieces
are going to be, start writing.
And start pulling, you know,looking for your sources
saying, God, I don't have that.
Maybe that's in my resume or maybeit's on my LinkedIn bio, you know,
start pulling and literally justcut and paste, cut and paste.
(20:59):
Just get it down on paperand then you can refine it.
I mean, that's, that's just the writingprocess, which can be again, daunting.
Yes.
If you're not an author, take breaks.
I will advocate for that throughoutall of this, that if you're feeling
overwhelmed, just walk away and, andhave a glass of water or do something and
then come back to it and it'll feel moremanageable, but take it to appreciable
(21:23):
chunks, and this can be a big chunk.
This is a, maybe the center part,part of your website, more so than
visual design, which is hard to hear.
If you think that design is goingto solve everything, it'd be in a
beautiful coat of paint and, and, andlipstick on a pig will solve everything.
It doesn't.
It's your content that'sactually making the difference.
Right.
So getting that under your belt, if you'restarting from scratch, getting that under
(21:46):
your belt is, is a good place to start.
So you've turned me around.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chrissy Rey (21:51):
And, and even so, even when, so when I work with clients that, where
I build the website for them, we, Whenwe're doing a project where we're only
doing the build for them and they'reproviding us with their graphics, their
design, their colors, their logo andeverything, they've already got all that.
The content, that's a lot of timesthe hardest part for them, but we
(22:15):
won't actually start building anymoreuntil they've delivered their content.
So we'll give them templatesto put all their content into.
I give them Google Docs to putall their content into and I'll
create a sitemap for them and.
And tell them which pages theyneed to write and give them.
Yeah.
The, the templates have.
Instructions for writing what likewhat kind of content needs to be on
(22:36):
each type of page like your aboutpage and your services page and things
like that, but I will not start.
I will not push one pixel until theyhave delivered their content because
I, there are, I've worked with clients.
I've got a client right nowwho was supposed to deliver.
It's currently July.
They were supposed to deliver theircontent in, I think it was April.
(22:59):
And we were supposed to launchtheir website in June, and I
still don't have their content.
Yeah.
So I'm still waiting on it.
Eve Simon (23:07):
And the point there is well taken, because even if
they say, just go, I'll work onit, just get it, get it ready.
It's still not going to launch, guys.
You're still going to have, you know, evenif it was just difficult to build when you
don't even know have a sense of what thecontent is because you don't know if it's
going to be three paragraphs or two lines.
Right.
So, so know that theend result is the same.
(23:31):
If you wait to the very end toget your content, your website's
going to be on hold anyhow.
So you might as well just do it inthe deadlines that are, it's hard.
I, I a hundred percent.
It's a hard thing to do.
And again, it's the samekind of brain thing.
Like, some people are not,can't do writing and think that
writers have to do writers.
If this is writing, this is about you.
You should be able to, to,to get your story out there.
(23:54):
And one thing I will say heretoo, which is also saying a
lot of controversial things.
Don't make the perfectthe enemy of the good.
And this is going to bethroughout the process.
This is in design.
This is in writing.
Because I know people who get paralysiswhen they can't finish something.
Just get it done.
It's, it's, it's a first draft.
Actually, the, the guy who ran theWashington Post called reporting the
(24:15):
newspapers the first draft of history.
I mean, so even they have a firstdraft, get the first draft done, and
then, and then there can be changesdown the road, but, but you have to.
Chrissy Rey (24:27):
Yeah.
And one thing to remember abouta website is that it's updatable.
You can change the contentafter you've launched.
So like, like you've said, itdoesn't need to be perfect.
It just, you just need to have itand have it be good enough to launch.
And then if you want to makeit perfect later, you can do
that and you can update it.
(24:47):
It's not like a printed document whereyou put it out there and it's out there
as it is forever, unchangeable, untilyou go through it with a marker or
something or print a new version of it.
But it's relatively easy formost websites to, to change what,
what the content looks like.
So definitely, definitely need it.
Make it get it up there.
Eve Simon (25:08):
Get it up there.
Yeah.
And the codicil to that is youjust mentioned about updating
the website should never be done.
So if you say that's done, we gotto have a conversation because it's
a starting point and the beauty ofall these digital things because one
you can change things, but two, youcan put it out there and test it.
(25:28):
So do it the first timeand say, Okay, here I am.
And they go, Oh, I thought you did X.
I forgot about doing that.
Or I thought that you'remore positioned like this.
You then can start making refinements.
And then in three months, sixmonths, maybe there's at some
point you have a plan where youfeel strong enough to do it of how
(25:49):
frequently you're going to change it.
Maybe there's like, I just, I justwas interviewed by fast company
for something about my podcast.
And I made sure that before thepod before that was released, I
made some changes to the website.
Because it had advancedfrom that period of time.
And it was going to be somethingthat people were going to see.
And I wanted to refinethe story a little bit.
But that had been up like three years.
(26:10):
And it was time to make a couple tweaks.
So you're the audience or whoever'sgoing to see your website.
Because if we do this right, it is amarketing channel amongst other marketing
channels that drive people to it.
People are going to see this andthey're going to have opinions.
And you got to encourage that.
And know that the next step isjust phase two, and then there's
(26:30):
phase three, and then there'sscalability to infinity kind of thing.
Chrissy Rey (26:35):
Now, if somebody is DIYing their brand, their website,
they're just trying to DIY everything.
Do you think that it would help themto have a brand board or a brand guide
or something like that, where they'recreating a document that sort of
documents everything about their brand?
And if you think it's a good idea,how would somebody that's DIYing
(26:57):
it go about making one of those?
Eve Simon (26:59):
These are all so very good questions.
Brand nomenclature gets weirdbecause there's, when you have a
branding agency, they're going to useeverything with brand in front of them.
They have a brand board.
They're going to have a brand document,a brand vision, and all this stuff.
Website design gets a littledifferent because there's a lot
of feel when it comes to engagingwith a digital product that way.
(27:21):
So for me, when I'm working with myclients, more often than not, I do
something that I call a mood board.
And, and I find that even thenomenclature of that eases people's
minds just a little bit, because it'snot, it doesn't have to be scary.
And it, and it reflects a feeling.
It doesn't need to reflectspecificity for me.
(27:42):
Sometimes I go into a couple of details,like, um, I need to know what your
headlines going to look like, or whatdoes a button look like, but for the most
part, those come in at the dead last,it's all about what is the environment.
I think this is a good time for me tomention that my training is actually
in theatrical lighting design.
So that might help in why I do it thisway, because I came from a background
(28:03):
where everything was literally air andthere was nothing that you could touch.
So how do you make a feeling whenthere's nothing you can touch, which
is an interesting challenge on the web.
So I found that mood boards.
Do that for me.
I do them in, in Photoshop.
I do them in, you know,you can do them in Figma.
You can do them in a lot of thingsthat you can start taking digital
(28:24):
pieces and start combining them.
I'll give you one example that I hadrecently with a client that changed her
mindset about what the website neededto do, that she felt that she had a
very nostalgic old school feel to her.
And that is typified for her in likecolors and photos and faded things and
(28:46):
pearl necklaces and, and a black and, andwhite polka dotted dress by the seaside.
There was this things that felt that way.
But as a designer, when you look at that,it feels too on the nose because then you
go to a website and go, Oh, she's talking,you know, maybe she's selling something
that's nostalgic versus, you know, It'sher soul out there that is nostalgic.
(29:06):
So the process of doing a mood boardtogether actually solidified that for her,
because the pictures that I chose wereof her, she actually did a photo shoot.
That's another thing that, thatsometimes content can be written,
but content can be visual.
So she had done some photos thatreflected who she was by the sea in
this dress with her pearls on, andthen it was mixing that with things
(29:28):
that the colors that, that felt olderthat didn't feel bright and modern
that felt older, but still relevant.
You know, all these things.
And it took a little while and itdoesn't have to come to you right away.
I did the walk awaything a couple of times.
Typography that fits old, old school,but yet she's, she's now, I mean, 2024.
(29:54):
And so once I did that and Ishowed it to her, she was like,
I get it now that I don't need tohave that level of specificity.
I can suggest it.
And so like little thingslike type treatments or photo
treatments ended up like Polaroids.
And the pictures in the Polaroids werefaded a little bit because that gave
us a little bit of the feeling butdidn't have to say, I'm an old picture.
(30:16):
So the mood board got us probablythree quarters of the way because
then I could follow the feeling ofthat board when it came to actually, I
built the site in Squarespace for her.
But if we hadn't done that.
All I would have had in myhead was she wants nostalgia.
She wants something thatfeels homey and comfortable.
That doesn't mean anythinguntil you actually see it.
(30:36):
So I will always do a brand board.
I will always do a mood board rather.
Brand boards are a little differentbecause they get to the specificity of who
you are sometimes through logo and type.
They do color palettes.
It can be very, not technical, butit, it, it, I think it's a little
scarier, especially if you're a DIYer.
Now, if you don't have access toPhotoshop, you can do it in Canva.
(30:58):
A lot of people are using Canva.
You can also just go get magazines,and tear things out and get a piece
of paper and just put them down andstart seeing what works for you.
And maybe then that movesdigital at some point.
There's lots of different ways to do it.
But I think it's an important step tostart getting, once you get sort of
the unsexy stuff out of the way, getyour visual stuff on the table somehow.
(31:19):
And I think, I think a moodboard is a really good way to
do it, to get started with it.
Now, if you come at it with somethingthat's already defined, like I
actually have a client right nowwho had all of his stuff done.
He has colors.
He has a logo.
He has a feeling.
But it's again, a little on thenose and I'm in the process of
doing a mood board with him to tryto find a way to pull things out.
(31:41):
So we're not looking sodeep down to specificity.
He actually, he's a coach that hasa very sort of spiritual sense to
himself, himself purposely, but notputting the spirituality on the client.
And it came out in a meeting that he'slike, Oh, so when I put something that's
like, you know, it was a beautiful sunsetor somebody sitting by the sea, they think
I'm selling things that are based on that.
(32:03):
They don't believe that I'm sellingthis overall holistic feeling.
And it and it's suddenly athing went off in his head.
He's like, Okay, we can'tbe that on the nose.
It has to be something that we we findthe way into it slightly differently,
which doesn't mean we abandon it.
So this is an important stageto start sussing that stuff out.
And again, each of thesecould be difficult.
(32:23):
I'm not going to say they're not.
But once you're past it, you'lllook at all the things you have.
And then actually doing the final work isless onerous because you've already made
decisions whether you realize it or not.
Chrissy Rey (32:34):
If somebody doesn't have their logo, their colors, their fonts
or anything like that, do you thinkit would be helpful as part of the
process of creating those, becauseagain, they're probably going to
DIY or DIY most, some or all of it.
Do you think it would be helpful todo that mood board before they even do
that process where they create that,the logo and everything like that?
Eve Simon (32:55):
Yes and no.
Sometimes one can inform the other.
Sometimes you can sort of say, Oh, wow,now that I've determined that it's,
that it's not the Pearl nostalgia,but it's a, it's a different kind of
nostalgia that can determine maybewhat your, where your logo goes.
More than not, if you're DIYing it,you're going to be doing a logo with type.
(33:17):
Just just picking it a typeset and thatyou may pick something because that's
what you think it is about time Youactually start figuring out some of the
other pieces of it doesn't fit anymore.
So I think that that's I hate to leavenuance and I hate to leave this or that If
you feel you can't go right at it, don't.
Do the mood board andthen maybe back into it.
(33:37):
The other thing about that that I'mgoing to say is that the choices that
you make at this point shouldn't bearbitrary and they also shouldn't be
driven by your personal preferences.
And this is again controversy that peopleare going to come here saying, but it's
my website and I want it to be my stuff.
It's your website for an audience.
So what does the audience want?
What do you need the audienceto feel kind of thing?
(34:00):
And, and, you know, when you're startingto pick things, it can start to feel
arbitrary, saying, well, I like orange.
I guess I'll use orange.
Well, maybe that's not the best forhow you're presenting your story.
So again, better to makethose decisions early.
Have the fight with yourself early, too.
Because then it's like personal versusbusiness let's you get that out of
the way rather than you're facing downa color picker in your platform, and
(34:25):
it says what are you color palette?
You're like, I don't know Iguess we'll take these five.
You know, everything.
Everything has a meaning.
Color in particular has a meaning.
And if you're putting things on yourwebsite that at least three quarters
of them aren't there for a good reason,you gotta go back and rethink it.
You know, the color, colorchoices, frankly, are personal
preferences, but then there'salso color that means something.
(34:47):
So you may love red, but redis the color of emergencies.
So if you're, if you're gonna haveall this red on your website, you may
not realize that you're pushing peopleaway then drawing people closer to
you because you happen to like red.
And that's part of the research too.
There are plenty of websitesout there that are gonna tell
you what color means, right?
No, just just do a Google and I'll tellyou a how you pick color and how you
(35:08):
pick colors that go together, becausethere's kind of color palette software
that you can pick and there's triadsand there's complementary colors And
there's all these different ways to do it.
I actually wrote you wrotesomething for you about color.
It's it's really really personal I'm Butit's also got to be brand consistent
and it has to work because they'recolors that twitch against each other.
(35:31):
They call that vibration.
So you could pick a color, it'slike, Oh, it looks good together.
But when you put it in the context,it's like, Whoa, I can't read anything.
Or why does my head hurt kind of stuff.
So do the research and figureout what you're picking and what
means what you think it means.
If you say, I am here to helppeople buy better apples.
Do research about about purchasing.
(35:53):
What colors encourage people to purchase?
What colors encourage people tofeel comfortable or what is a
what is an apple mean to them?
Is it you know freshnessbecause it's picked?
Is it baked into a pie so it's homey?
I mean there's just lots of stuff and andyou'll start winnowing it down based on
the research you find just be patient.
Chrissy Rey (36:11):
So, Eve and I were just talking offline and we decided she
has so much information to share andI would love to have Her share more
information than, than what we'vebeen able to cover in this episode.
And I don't want theepisode to go too long.
So we've decided that we are going tobreak the questions up a little bit.
We're going to have a part two.
(36:32):
So let me ask my lastquestion for part one.
Again, keeping in mind that a lot of thefolks that are listening are solopreneurs,
they're doing this by themselves.
They're probably going touse a template of some sort.
So can you, for, foranybody that doesn't know.
Can you explain what a template is whenit comes to a website and what are some of
(36:53):
the differences between using a templateand a completely custom web design?
Eve Simon (36:59):
Deep breath.
Template can be a dirty word causepeople look at that and they think
about like a PowerPoint templatewhere you pick from the thing.
And it's, um, in the webworld, it doesn't have to be.
Everything is a starting point.
So whether you start with a templateand refine it, or you're fresh and
you design it and then you haveto figure out how to build it.
(37:22):
For a DIYer I think startingwith a template is probably going
to be the safest thing becauseyou can get a site up fast.
You can see a bunch of differentways that it's accomplished.
And most importantly with templates, thereare usually built in mobile versions.
And if anybody here who doesn't,doesn't care and say, ah, just a phone,
(37:43):
everything is going to be in a phone.
I'm surprised that there's stilldesktop websites right now in 2024.
Yeah.
So, so good, good templates, um, aredone where they have well articulated,
mobile versions that you can start with.
Everything is a starting point.
That you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
I think custom design is fabulous,if you are set up for it.
(38:06):
But, it is often reinventing thewheel, because it's been done before.
And, and nothing on the webhas not been done before.
So, take the win.
But, don't take it as is.
So that's the caveat here.
Because, there's template sites,like, I personally use Squarespace.
Because, you know, the Squarespace,there's Wix, there's Webflow.
(38:27):
There's a lot of those that are similarin, in, in the, how they're done.
I find that the interface is intuitivefor my brain when it comes to Squarespace.
And it comes with built in templates.
And you can actually, when you log intoSquarespace to set something up, you
can select a little icon that showsit as a desktop or select an icon
that says, this is what it's going tolook like on a phone and it allows you
(38:47):
to make changes on the phone versionthat don't impact the desktop version,
which as you know, when you're doing.
Media queries raw,that's a pain in the ass.
So, so, most of these, likeSquarespace, used to be able
to, they did all these differenttemplates out of different names.
And there are different versions of it.
And then they all had their owncustomized color palette with it.
(39:08):
They had customized like where, howimages are done, customized typography.
They're now doing a version ofSquarespace that they're all following
sort of one, but then they're modified.
So even a template, if you choosea Squarespace template, someone has
made a decision about what that isbased on one template, pretty much.
So at this point, it becomesnot even selecting a template.
(39:29):
It becomes selecting a style and muchlike when you start looking at like a
stock site, you look at all those images.
The images are done with theintent of a photographer.
These templates are done withthe intent of the template maker.
So, I would say if you're going to dothis, you're going to pick, do a DIY,
pick a template that's pretty close.
Some of them will have drop down menus.
(39:49):
Some of them will have big, wide, fullbleed images, which is edge to edge.
Some of them will not.
Pick something that is close.
Make sure you look at it in theversion, because it'll give you an
option to preview in Squarespace,and I assume in Wix and others.
Preview it and look at it in thedesktop and the mobile, because
changes will happen between them.
Make sure you're comfortable withit, understanding, if you can, in
(40:10):
the back of your mind that you'reprobably going to change the type.
You're probably going tochange the color palette.
You're going to do differentimages, kind of thing.
I recently just did a, evaluation forsomebody who hired a designer who just
took a template, left the colors, left thetype, left everything positioned where it
was and just subbed in different things.
(40:30):
And it shocker shocker doesn't work.
I mean, it's a website And it does thethings, but her unique content and her
story wasn't even close to represented.
Right.
So that's what you don't want.
That is a big exnay on the, on theemplatay, whatever you want to call it.
But pick a template thatyou feel comfortable with.
(40:51):
It can be done in WordPress too.
There's so many WordPresstemplates out there.
If you're feeling a little bit moredaring and you're open to some tech,
some tech changes because applyinga theme, they call them themes, as
you know, in WordPress is it a littlemore challenging than, than picking a
template, quote unquote, in Squarespace.
Which is why my brain goes towardsthat and your brain goes to the other.
(41:11):
Know yourself a little bit about whereyou feel comfortable, but don't push it.
If you're finding, if you're going downa road, let's say you're going down
the Squarespace things like, I justdoesn't, Oh, I want to, I want to have
more control because that's usuallywhat will happen is if they go with the
Squarespace, they want more control.
If they go with a WordPress, they'relike, I don't want to make all these
decisions, you know, or I don't knowhow to, I don't know how to attach
(41:32):
it to my domain kind of thing.
Squarespace helps you doa lot of those things.
So custom developmentis a wonderful thing.
When you and I have worked onprojects, most of that's custom.
Yeah.
And so, what'll happen is, we'llhave all these conversations about
the goals, and the audiences,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We'll figure out the content.
And then I've gone off and I've literallydesigned the pages in Photoshop.
(41:55):
And what is a header gonna look like?
What's a footer gonna look like?
I will document it for you.
I'll make sure you'll say this is, youknow, you can go and look at something
and say, this is the color, this isthe font, this is blah, blah, blah.
But then somebody on your end hasto freaking go and build code.
Right.
And then you open yourself up to, it'sbuilt beautifully on the desktop, but
then the mobile still has to be done.
(42:15):
And if you haven't had the time andthe budget to design the mobile,
you're like leaving that decision upto your, your developer who's like,
I don't know, I'm going to try that.
This is what we're going to do unlessyou tell me something specific.
So it, you know, there's a place for both.
My gut tells me that it is less expensiveand less onerous on your self, pick
(42:41):
a template and modify it from there.
Chrissy Rey (42:44):
Yeah, I agree.
For someone that's DIYing,templates are really the way to go.
Don't try to do something customif you're just getting started.
That's, that's my recommendation.
And we use templates.
So when, even when we do projectsfor our small business clients,
we've got packages that we do, andwe're using templates with those.
There's WordPress templates that, weshow them the library of templates.
(43:06):
And we say, pick one that is, similarto what you think you want and just,
you got to imagine it with your logo,your colors, your content in there,
your calls to action, which we'll talkabout in the second episode, but that
you got to imagine, you got to use yourimagination and think about what, what
it's going to look like with your stuff.
Eve Simon (43:25):
Right.
So, and I think to, to that end too, is alot of people try to get a little fancy.
Like I'm on a lot of Squarespacefacebook groups where they're
like, I'm using custom CSS,which is cascading style sheets.
I'm using custom type.
And then when they're like, whyis my site taking so long to load?
Because those things add weight.
And most template systems.
(43:45):
I don't know how necessarilywhat's available with WordPress,
but with Squarespace, there's alot of freaking fonts that are
available that are in Squarespace.
That if you need to go and get a customfont because you have a custom type
in your logo or whatever it is andsome, you know, it's not available.
It's not a Google font becausethey're mostly Google fonts.
I, at this juncture as a DIYer, I wouldstop and rethink it and say, is it, is
(44:07):
it really, you know, can I find somethingclose and, and, and not DIY that.
Right.
Because, because that's gonna, that opensup a can of worms because then I know
so many people who do like custom fontsbecause I have to have X, Y, and Z font.
I just, I did a project for somebodywhose son in law insisted on a certain
(44:29):
font and it had to be embedded.
And I'm like, here we go.
And it didn't work.
It's not suited for her content.
But in his brand mind, itneeded to be connected that way.
So there's always going to be discussionswith that, but yes, we both good.
We both agree that, that, thatstarting with a template site, when
(44:50):
you pick your platform, starting witha template, but mod, but modified.
Yeah, you know, modify it.
I mean, for you, when you haveyour packages, they pick their
colors, they can put their logoand they can pick their colors.
There's a couple differentoptions they can do.
You never want to do somethingwhere you don't have an option.
And you never want to do somethingthat someone chooses for you.
And you know, you're square peg roundhole because your stuff doesn't work.
Chrissy Rey (45:11):
Well, thank you so very much.
I know we've still got a lot to cover.
So make sure you come back for parttwo, and listen to Eve's thoughts on
things like What are some of the designelements that every website should have?
And what is a CTA call to action?
We're going to cover someof those questions and more.
Eve, thank you so much for talkingwith me today and for agreeing
(45:34):
to come back for a second round.
Do you have any closing thoughts?
Eve Simon (45:37):
Only that I love talking about this stuff.
I've been in thisindustry for so damn long.
So I really thank you forgiving me the opportunity to
babble about some of this stuff.
Thank you for the opportunity to do thisbecause I just live and breathe this crap.
Chrissy Rey (45:49):
Awesome.
So everybody, thank you for listening.
Make sure you come back for part two.
In a week from this episode,we'll have a part two.
So make sure you comeback and listen to it.
If you haven't already subscribed,hit that subscribe button on
whatever platform you're on.
Make sure you go to the website.
So if you want to check out theWebsite Success Blueprint that I talked
about earlier, or I've got a contentplanner, working on a brand planner
(46:13):
for folks that don't already have theirlogo and all that stuff figured out.
They're all under resourceson websitesuccessacademy.com.
So again, thanks for listening andwe'll catch you in the next episode.
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