Bitcoin is Generational Wealth | Peter Dunworth

Peter Dunworth is the Director of a multi-family office and is the co-founder of The Bitcoin Adviser. In this episode, we dive into why Bitcoin is the ultimate vehicle for generational wealth, how to actually protect it across jurisdictions, and why collateral, not debt, is the real story of global finance.

We get into why Bitcoin could underpin the collateral markets, how hyperbitcoinisation might play out both personally and globally, and why coexistence with fiat may last much longer than many expect. Peter explains how capital protected Bitcoin bonds could revolutionise sovereign debt, why the financialization of Bitcoin by Wall Street may actually be a net positive.

In this episode:

- Why 1 BTC could soon be generational wealth

- The challenges of preserving wealth

- Bitcoin as the foundation of collateral markets

- The case for Bitcoin bonds

- How Wall Street will financialize Bitcoin

- Coexistence of Bitcoin and fiat

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
It doesn't matter where your Bitcoin is, if you're domiciled in those jurisdictions,

(00:06):
then you are subject to the law of the land and you need to plan accordingly if you want
to maximise the outcomes for this generational wealth.
We are going to have Bitcoin form the foundation of all collateral markets globally.
This thing can grow to, I believe, tens of quadrillions of dollars to take on that collateral
market.
There are existing power structures in place that revolve around coercing people through

(00:29):
the use of the US dollar. And as long as that exists, then the thought of hyper-Bitcoinization
is going to be fought at every level until it actually eats the entire system from within.
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind, we're going to get to billions of dollars per Bitcoin.
It's just a matter of when, not if. This is the best time to be alive and it's about to get better.

(00:51):
Mr. Peter Dunworth, we are hitting record 15 minutes after the monthly candle on Bitcoin
and close we are now officially in october how are you feeling man i feel pretty good about october
given that uh the last quarter that we've had so i think we're going to see a very different um
end of the year so i'm excited about what that holds and i'm just very happy with the way things

(01:17):
are going despite you know i think the last conversation we had we've had the most positive
news cycle we've ever had yet we're all disappointed with bitcoin sitting at circa 114 000 so
So it's a funny place to be.
It is funny.
And I've said this a couple of times on the show.
Like this market, it is a bull market, but it's not a bull market.

(01:38):
But it's been the most challenging for me in terms of getting any kind of vibe of what Bitcoin is doing.
This could be a massive top signal.
But right now I'm feeling really fucking bullish again.
Like I think the end of this year is going to be pretty insane for Bitcoin.
So fingers crossed.
I don't know how you're looking at it.
look, if you look at the news flow, you look at the change in sentiment, you look at change in

(02:02):
regulations, all of the government, both implicit and explicit endorsement of it. It's really hard
not to be bullish at this point in time, but I guess maybe it's a little bit of PTSD from being
around Bitcoin too long that, you know, Bitcoin always wants to disappoint you. So whatever you're
expecting, just know that it could do the total opposite. And if you have low expectations, then

(02:24):
I think you'll be okay. I mean, the best thing about being in this a long time is whether price
goes up or price goes down, my actions don't change. I'll still be here. I'll still be here
holding Bitcoin, holding this thing that is going to bring us all generational wealth one day,
which is what I wanted to talk to you about. So you obviously run a multifamily office. You help

(02:46):
people plan for passing on wealth, generational wealth. And Bitcoin is the ultimate form of that.
But really, traditionally, that has been things like family businesses, gold, real estate.
These are the things that you pass on from generation to generation.
And now we have this asset that's just superior in every way, in my opinion, and I think probably in your opinion.

(03:07):
Do you think as Bitcoiners, we take that part of Bitcoin seriously enough?
I think a lot of us underestimate what Bitcoin can do over the next 10 or 20 years in terms of price.
And we look at the day-to-day and we get caught up in the day-to-day sentiment.
and I look at how we structure the affairs of clients in traditional finance and how a lot of

(03:29):
Bitcoin has structured their affairs and they're a poles apart. There needs to be some form of
integration because I think a lot of Bitcoiners aren't really planning for what happens when this
thing comes mainstream. And if we expect hyper-Bitcoinization, which we all do at some
point in time, I think, just a side note to that, I think hyper-Bitcoinization happens on a personal

(03:51):
level. I look at probably yourself, myself, we're effectively running a Bitcoin standard in our own
worlds, but the rest of the world hasn't caught up to it. But when you overlay, and this is the
problem that we have with Bitcoin, Bitcoin's a supranational entity that is above any state law,
whatever, it's basically code. But the problem that we have as Bitcoiners is that we are trapped

(04:13):
in the jurisdiction that we're in, whether it's, you know, America, the US, UK, take your pick.
And each of those jurisdictions have pros and cons with being in it. And it doesn't matter
where your Bitcoin is. If you're domiciled in those jurisdictions, then you are subject to the
law of the land and you need to plan accordingly if you want to maximize the outcomes for this

(04:35):
generational wealth. Yeah. I think one of the interesting things is like as Bitcoiners,
there's obviously this is a huge generalization but like for me it's coming up to 10 years in
bitcoin when i got into bitcoin i was in my 20s i had zero financial background i'd never really
invested in anything before i found bitcoin that turned into from a small investment into

(04:56):
basically my entire net worth and so like you go from this living this life where you never have
to think about having money and passing down money and how to secure money to having to come
to all these realizations.
And it's only really in the last few years
that I've taken this seriously enough, I think.
And you'll know this because I call you every week
asking you what I should be doing.

(05:18):
But it's one of the reasons
that Bitcoiners maybe haven't taken this seriously enough,
again, as a generalization,
because we are the first people
that are viewing this asset as generational wealth.
This has never existed before.
This is the first time this is being generational wealth.
I think that's a very good point.
And it overlays with a whole host of other considerations.

(05:39):
I think a lot of us went into Bitcoin with the hope that it was a lottery ticket, but
maybe with not the belief that it was going to actually deliver on the lottery ticket.
And so if we have a look at sort of a lot of the old coins where they're 10 plus years
old, there's a huge amount of equity built up in those coins.
Those early adopters weren't buying Bitcoin knowing full well that this was an absolute

(06:02):
certainty of achieving a million dollars per Bitcoin.
Because if they had, they would have sought out a whole host of legal remedies to prevent and protect any sort of malay that could come their way.
And most importantly, to protect the wealth that they've got.
Because one of the things that we see with our day-to-day work is that Bitcoin's made this statement a whole lot truer.

(06:24):
But it's much easier to gain the wealth than it is to maintain it.
And this is where everyone thinks getting the amount of wealth is difficult.
That's just where the fun part starts.
Once you're wealthy, everyone wants a piece of it.
There's a whole host of opportunities that come your way that distract you from the main
event.
There's a whole host of options, considerations that you need to make.

(06:46):
There's, I guess, a whole host of legacy issues that you may need to deal with.
And these are all complexities that are placed on top of your responsibility of basically
maintaining and growing your wealth.
And all of those distractions don't really come until you have a big chunk of equity,
a big chunk of wealth that can help out a whole lot of people. Then all of a sudden,

(07:07):
there are the challenges of actually maintaining it. So maybe a good place to start here,
because there'll be people listening who have gotten to Bitcoin in the last year, last five
years, last 10 years, whatever, like wherever you're at. How much Bitcoin do you think you'll
need for it to be considered generational wealth in the future? Depending on what time frame you're

(07:28):
looking to. And this is where I think if you're holding one Bitcoin in the next 10 years, that
will be considered generational wealth. 0.1 will be generational wealth 10 years after that.
0.01 of a Bitcoin, like literally 1% of a Bitcoin will be generational wealth after 20 years time.
So you don't need a lot now, but the problem is, is how do you secure that? How do you look after

(07:49):
it and how do you preserve it while you're having to deal with that time issue of Bitcoin catching up
to generational wealth in terms of that for yourself.
So I think it's a number that's a lot lower
than most people think.
But the important part is how do you protect it
in the best way possible?
And this is where the fun part starts.

(08:10):
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(10:04):
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See, like for a long time, we've spoken about this and you throw out valuations for Bitcoin that seem wild even to me.

(10:32):
Like I think the idea of talking about million dollar Bitcoin still like still seems relatively comfortable to me.
But when you get to the point of saying like 0.01 Bitcoin will be generational wealth, like how do we get from here to there?
And what happens along the way?
I think there are a whole host of spigots of liquidity that are going to flow into Bitcoin.

(10:54):
And in all the work that I've done, like I've got a background in credit markets, equity markets,
and I can tell you emphatically that Bitcoin is the best form of collateral ever invented.
And if you understand that, you realize that Bitcoin can be as big as you want it to be.
We are going to have Bitcoin form the foundation of all collateral markets globally.

(11:14):
and with taking a side note into macro.
The biggest problem the world faces at the moment
is not a debt problem.
It's a collateral problem.
If we had the collateral to repay the debt,
we wouldn't have a debt problem.
But the problem is the debt can't be repaid
because we don't have any collateral.
How do we actually fulfill that collateral need
that the world has

(11:34):
when we've printed circa $300 trillion of paper?
Because it's effectively,
well, it's not effectively,
it is the definition of a Ponzi scheme,
the current financial system that we're working in because it's a fractionalized banking system.
Now, Bitcoin as a form of collateral can expand to take on whatever the collateral requirements

(11:56):
are of the system. So we can have Bitcoin go up a thousand or ten thousand X from here
to grow into the size that it's going to support the current credit system and more.
But in order to understand that, we need to understand, well, why would Bitcoin be the best
the best collateral to inflate away to create the equity that we need to support all of these

(12:16):
financial markets. And in one soundbite, it comes down to this. Bitcoin divorces Wall Street
speculation from Main Street consequence. And what do I mean by that? Up until now, every single
asset that we've had has been financialized by Wall Street. They've effectively gouged the most
out of each asset class. They've gouged the housing market in the US, Australia, the UK,

(12:40):
all across Western countries. They've managed to financialize the stock market,
they've managed to financialize the bond market, and they're only just starting to financialize
Bitcoin now. And this is where Bitcoin is the only asset out of those three that I mentioned,
which doesn't have a downstream consequence for Main Street. Now, what do I mean by that? Well,

(13:01):
we're not going to have a cost of living crisis, housing affordability issues,
when they're no longer financializing the housing market. And this is where Bitcoin,
I often get in conversations with some of my parents' friends, and they tell me that the
reason why they don't want to buy Bitcoin is because you can't live in it. And that is the

(13:26):
very feature of Bitcoin, not the bud. The very fact that you can't live in Bitcoin, but we can
financialize it to be an enormous amount to underwrite the entire financial system is precisely
the reason that they're going to financialize Bitcoin rather than financialize the housing
market or the commodities market or any other market. So that should be a big tell that this
is the one that has the least downstream consequences for Main Street, which means it can take on the

(13:50):
most amount of value. And because out of all the asset classes that we're dealing with at the
moment, it's circa two, two and a half trillion dollars, this thing can grow to, I believe,
tens of quadrillions of dollars to take on that collateral market.
okay there's so much in that i want to unpack so when you say that collateral is like the real

(14:10):
value proposition like that's where bitcoin is going to change the market how do we go
how do we go from a credit-based system where everything is just debt to integrating that
with bitcoin in some way it happens slowly then gradually then suddenly and and this is where i
think, having just listened to one of your pods with the panel with Checkmating and Joe and Matt,

(14:38):
the Bitcoin bonds is a great place to start. And if you, I guess, extrapolate out what one of those
single bonds looks like. The government has a huge issue. You talked about the long end of the
yield curve, basically having trouble selling. They haven't had a 30-year auction, a 10-year,
a 15-year that's been successful in the last two or three years. There are no investors at

(14:59):
that level. If you step in and then create a Bitcoin bond, which is maybe 20% is invested in
Bitcoin and 80% of that bond is invested in the bonds that you're talking about, we call it a
principal protected note. Two things happen. The government raises the money that they wish,
but it will, and I'll just step back and say how that works is with a principal protected note,

(15:24):
the investor would be guaranteed to receive their principal back. Now that's a big thing.
And what is really interesting is that that 20% that's invested in Bitcoin is kind of like a bonus payment that's paid for making the investment in a capital guaranteed product.
Now, if you were to look at the last five years, if there was a five-year bond issued five years ago with that 80-20 structure, that would create on, say, a billion dollars.

(15:49):
There would be a billion dollars of capital to be repaid from the bond, but there would be $2 billion in equity built into that, which was accrued by investing in Bitcoin.
So all of a sudden, you've got a three-for-one investment, which has effectively increased the capital, the equity pool that you can now secure and collateralize further markets with.

(16:10):
So I don't want to say you've printed $2 billion out of thin air, but you've created $2 billion of value when you previously had $1 billion.
And the way the existing bond markets are structured, that billion dollars is only going to generate a billion dollars plus a coupon of maybe 5% per annum.
So at the very best, over a five-year period, it's going to be $1.25 billion.

(16:33):
I've just shown you with the numbers that this is going to create $3 billion, and it's going to create enough equity that you can extinguish the debt on that initial bond.
And that's the thing that we haven't had up until this point in time.
We haven't had a vehicle that can extinguish the debt obligation of that bond in the period that it exists.
So this is what's revolutionary about the capital guaranteed or principal protected notes is we can actually build out an equity system that's going to be larger than the debt markets that are propping up all of the assets that we've got.

(17:05):
So in that hypothetical, if this had been issued, you would have had your initial capital protected by the US government.
So you getting your guaranteed initial capital back and then you outperforming even the most speculative people on Wall Street from the Bitcoin coupon on top of it Correct So it is like the ultimate vehicle It a have your cake and eat it too moment That the beautiful thing about it

(17:27):
See, that seems insane to me, like in the best possible way.
The only reason I can think that any government wouldn't issue a bond like this
or city, municipality, whoever, is because it undermines the fiat system.
I think this is almost like pulling the blanket up and being like, look, there's actually nothing under here.

(17:50):
Is that the biggest barrier for the US or anyone else to do something like this?
It kind of gives the game away, doesn't it?
This is where the power of regulation is really important for allowing this to bloom,
while at the same time solving a whole host of economic issues or financial issues that we're facing across the globe.

(18:11):
I look at who are the captured or who are the regulated entities that they can effectively ensure are buyers of this type of asset.
And one of the buyers of that is the U.S. banking sector.
Imagine they put in, you know, a trillion to five trillion dollars of that into that type of product.

(18:34):
All of a sudden, you've solved half the U.S. national debt within a five-year period that you'd never be able to sort otherwise.
It solves a whole host of issues.
And this is where the captured regulatory entities, such as the banks, the insurance companies,
and I'm sure there's a whole host of other entities that I'm not mentioning here, the
government can mandate what they can and can't invest in.

(18:55):
So if they turn around and say, hey, you're only allowed to do that, well, that's kind
of the quid pro quo for paying off and ensuring that they're going to be solvent in the next
years.
And I look at this and think, well, we all have to do things that we don't want to.
And I'm sure there's a whole host of CEOs of these companies who are going to push back on that.
But at the end of the day, it's probably the medicine that they need to take.

(19:16):
It's super interesting.
And one of the things that I do struggle with is the idea that the dollar system as the global hegemony can exist with Bitcoin in the future.
Like maybe there'll be a period of coexistence.
But do you think at the end of the day, this does end in hyper-Bitcoinization and Bitcoin wins?

(19:36):
i'll reframe that because i don't think i don't i think we can live and coexist with fiat
without having to have hyper well while at the same time having hyper bitcoinization
this is the really interesting point i think they can coexist in relative harmony for a long period
of time and this is where i think it's going to be longer than our lifetime before we see

(20:00):
full hyper-Bitcoinization where people are just refusing, flat out refusing to take fiat in
response for that. And I can tell you, things move a lot slower than we think, but everything that
I'm seeing out there at the moment is heading in the right direction. And I actually think
what we're seeing with the US dollar stablecoins, what Tether's been able to achieve, and the,

(20:25):
I guess the work that they're doing to expand their network is actually extremely positive
for the US dollar.
But at the same time, it's really positive for Bitcoin as well.
So I don't think those things have to be mutually exclusive in the near term.
In the long term, I think everyone will come to their own decision on that and ultimately
choose with their feet by moving to the system that they want to.

(20:47):
But this could go on for 50 years.
See, the thing that I think is interesting there is like my daughter, like she's going
to grow up in a world that Bitcoin has always existed. And we're seeing like the start of what
could potentially be like real merchant adoption with what Square are doing rolling out across the
US where you can just pay with Bitcoin at every Square terminal. Assuming these tools get built

(21:09):
out more and more quickly, there's more and more sort of grassroots adoption of Bitcoin at things
like the merchant level. Like why would she ever want to use dollars when she could just use Bitcoin?
It's a great question.
I don't know.
But this is where it's going to fundamentally come down to.
What is the use case for it?
And this is a chicken and the egg problem that we can probably go back and forward on.

(21:33):
But I look at this and think, I personally, I do, but I would ideally not like to use
Bitcoin for any payments on a day-to-day basis.
Because why do I want to pay with the asset that's going up at 30 or 40, 50% per annum?
when I can get rid of cash that's going down at 10% to 12% per hour.

(21:53):
That makes no logical sense.
And so this is where the other sort of building on that first point
about how do we get their generational wealth and the rest of it.
The credit markets are building out on the back of Bitcoin
and the ease and availability of credit with Bitcoin
and the fact that you can defer your borrowing to fiat

(22:14):
is the very reason that Bitcoin is going to continue to grow
and why you wouldn't want to use your Bitcoin for that day-to-day use case.
Now, that's a very selfish and myopic view of why you don't do it.
But on a broader scale, more helicopter view of this,
you do use it because you actually build out the network,
then you get a whole host of other people involved in the Bitcoin network
and you actually grow the network out and people start to see this thing grow out

(22:37):
through their own eyes.
And I think it's really important to have both sides of things.
But from a personal point of view, I'm trying to build out the use case for the credit markets, collateral, and the other things, because I think that's the fastest way that we have a huge spike in Bitcoin.
When the financial world realizes this is the only thing that we can measure objectively against, that's the thing we want to own.

(23:04):
See, that is fair.
And I don't think using Bitcoin as collateral is going away in the short term at all.
Maybe never.
um but like for her in this in this scenario like for her i've been stacking bitcoin for her since
the day she was born she doesn't have a single dollar or pound or anything in a bank account like
she has no fiat but she has a stack of bitcoin sat there waiting for her so like it will get to

(23:26):
a point where if you don't have dollars and you only have bitcoin well then you spend bitcoin or
you take out a loan against bitcoin i guess but that's on a day-to-day spending like that's maybe
less likely. But the world where Bitcoin and the dollar coexist for a long time is one that I'm not
fully comfortable with yet. Yeah, I'm not fully comfortable with it either, but I think

(23:48):
it's something we're going to have to get used to because there's an existing power structure
revolving around that US dollar that is very, very difficult to dislodge. And the consequences
of dislodging that, people are going to fight really hard if you want to dislodge that immediately.
now I think the path of least resistance is giving them an education on bitcoin and showing them

(24:09):
why this is exponentially better than what they're currently using and how they can
benefit on a personal level from it but there are existing power structures in place that revolve
around coercing people through the use of the US dollar and as long as that exists then the thought
of hyper bitcoinization is going to be fought at every level and I'd much rather a peaceful takeover

(24:31):
of the world than one that requires a fight. And the curious thing about Bitcoin is this is the
only thing I've seen that has the ability to ensure that everyone's interests are all aligned.
Now, I find this quite unique in that at the same time that you are really greedy about buying

(24:52):
Bitcoin and trying to get as much of it as possible, it turns you into a much better person
than you previously were and one that's far more magnanimous than you might have been a previous
iteration of yourself. So it's quite the conundrum that you come here to get rich, but you end up
turning into a much better person who wants to do more for your community and help out in many ways.
And this is where the ability to co-opt the decision makers who are, I guess, own and control

(25:17):
the US dollar, I think is far more important than just taking it head on and having a fight with them.
yeah i think that's fair and that that element of bitcoin the fact that it does truly change you is
the thing that make us sound like we're all in a cult but it is just a fact like i don't know what
to say to you that just happens um so back to the um financialization of bitcoin so you talked about

(25:41):
how wall street has financialized all these other assets and then gouged them um we spoke i don't
know six months ago on the podcast and that was all about bitcoin financializing why can they not
gouge Bitcoin in the same way that they have done with the stock market and real estate and things
like that? Well, they can. And this is the beauty of working with people, not against them. They can

(26:01):
gouge, I guess, a whole host of value out of the Bitcoin network. But at the same time, they're
gouging that we're all better for it because it's being further integrated into the financial system.
And a lot of people might push back on the integration of Bitcoin into the financial
system. But ultimately, it's a great way of protecting Bitcoin until it actually
beats the entire system from within. So I don't think we want to fight them. I think

(26:25):
Wall Street monetizing and financializing Bitcoin is actually a wonderful thing. We've seen a recent
announcement where BlackRock wants to introduce an income fund on the back of the Bitcoin volatility,
which I think will be an absolute killer product. They're effectively doing what
YieldMax is doing with their MSTY fund, but they're bringing it to Bitcoin, I think, on a much

(26:46):
much bigger scale that will be a fund that that income fund will be one of if not their best
performing income fund by the proverbial mark i've missed this can you can you what is it how
does it work i think basically what they're doing is they're financializing bitcoin by selling
options on a on a in a fund and what they're doing is they buy bitcoin they sell puts and calls and

(27:09):
they manage the bitcoin in there and they monetize that through the form of selling those puts and
calls. And then they give that to the investors in a monthly dividend. And I think their target
is close to 3% per annum. Now, I can tell you 3% per annum relative to all other investment
or income options that they offer will blow everything else out of the water.

(27:31):
So what would they offer on a normal product like that?
A normal income product would aim to get somewhere between 5% to 7% per annum.
and this is a product that is targeting close to 3% per month.
3% a month? Oh, damn. Okay.
And is there any risk in them doing that?
Like, can, I mean, BlackRock are huge.

(27:52):
I don't expect it to blow the entire company up,
but can they blow the fund up doing this?
Anything's possible, but I don't think they're going to do that.
But how do you do, is this like a covered call sort of thing?
A little similar.
So how does that actually work?
Because I've never fully understood that.
Well, there's a number of different ways that you can generate cash on your Bitcoin.

(28:15):
There's a whole host of ways, actually.
Probably, I guess, the safest way is to sell a cash put.
And that's basically saying that you're going to buy this asset for a certain price at a certain time.
And someone is going to pay you to take that option and leave that available.
And depending on the volatility of the Bitcoin market will determine how much per month that they get back.

(28:38):
And so what's been interesting for me is looking at the options market around micro strategy because it's a very well-developed market. It's an asset that's more volatile than Bitcoin. And there were periods of time where people were offering nearly 10% to 12% per month to basically take on the risk of buying that stock at a certain point in time in the future.

(29:00):
And I look at that and think, that's a great way to generate cash.
But there are some, I guess, inherent risks with that.
But BlackRock with a professional team, literally the resources that they've got, they will
effectively become the market.
And then they'll just squeeze that volatility to deliver whatever it needs on a monthly
basis.
And then that basically will create a whole host of lower volatility until such point

(29:24):
in time.
We just get a big kick up and it'll rip people's faces off.
But this is how they do it.
And this is where what's really interesting.
And if I haven't already, I think we've talked about this, having Dave Dredge on to talk about volatility and risk and how to manage risk.
He is the best in the world at it.
And he's exceptionally generous with his time.

(29:46):
I think your viewers would love to listen to Dave because he's probably got the best outlook on risk in the markets that I've seen.
He's ultra well connected.
and Bitcoin is going to start placing
or start becoming a much bigger player
in this global risk market.
At the moment, it's not there
because it's too volatile
and no banks have built products around this.

(30:08):
But as this creeps into the financial system
that we talked about
and goes deeper and deeper into it,
gets more and more integrated,
you're going to have banks
that are taking more and more risk
with these products around Bitcoin.
And therein lies the opportunity
for the likes of Dave Dredge
to basically buy really cheap volatility on these assets.
And he gets to monetize that at a future point in time.

(30:30):
But for the retail investors,
they're effectively putting money into a managed fund
that's going to produce a yield of somewhere between,
probably at the end of the day,
somewhere between one to three, 4% per month.
I would love you to introduce me to him if you can.
I'll try and get him on the show.
Okay, so back to your call that in 10, 20 years,

(30:53):
however long 0.01 bitcoin is generational wealth i don't know what the dollar figure of that means
like i don't know what you think of as generational wealth but um what presumably that's bitcoin at
tens of millions more in fact hundreds of millions of dollars if not more um what does the world look
like at that point like if i go to the petrol station what's my petrol cost to me what are my

(31:16):
groceries costing me like how what what does the world look like at that point i don't think things
are going to suffer hyperinflation.
I don't think we're going to have a $50 a litre petrol
and things like that.
I don't think that happens
because I sincerely believe we're about to enter
an age of deflation,
which is going to ensure that prices come down

(31:39):
across all of those commodities.
The advent of robots, AI, all the rest of it
is going to mean that cost of living pressures
are going to come down dramatically.
And we're going, well, those in charge
are basically going to be highly incentivized
to make sure that the cost of living comes down.
At the same time, as that's coming down,
the cost of living is coming down dramatically,
the value of Bitcoin is going to be ripping

(31:59):
because we've got a deflationary monetary asset
for the first time in history.
So I look at this as really a perfect storm
that cost of living is going to get much cheaper.
And this is where, if you look at
cost of living throughout the ages,
it's never been cheaper to live than right now.
We've got less people in poverty,

(32:20):
low percentages in poverty.
We've got higher living standards than we've ever had,
unless you're living in Australia
where the last five years has gone down,
but every other country's gone up.
I say that facetiously,
but this is the best time to be alive
and it's about to get better.
So all of those things, those concerns,
we're going to have a price that goes through the roof
in Bitcoin at the same time

(32:41):
we're getting cheaper costs of living.
So I don't think we need to be concerned about that.
The ultimate hedge on that
is actually just having Bitcoin.
As long as you have it,
you'll be hitched you won't have to worry about it it's funny because like i think i remember
listening to a podcast i can't remember who said it but someone said objectively we live in the
best time ever but subjectively it's the worst and i think that's kind of an interesting because

(33:03):
like like you say the stats say that there's never been a better time to be alive but it feels
incredibly polarized like there's there's massive wealth inequality like do we continue to have
those things into the future? Because presumably dollar debasement doesn't go away in this time
period. I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. But this is the hope that Bitcoin

(33:26):
offers to anyone of the 8 billion people out there. If you want to protect yourself from
debasement, you want to protect yourself from inflation. The only way to do that across the
board for 8 billion people is to buy Bitcoin. And this is fundamentally missed on a whole host of
people. I think in Western countries where we live, it's completely lost on our friends and

(33:47):
family because they don't see it. Sure, they get sticker shock with the printing of money over the
last five years, but relatively speaking, they're not interested in addressing or even acknowledging
the problem. But for 4 billion people who live in hyperinflationary countries, this is a life
and death situation. And this is where Bitcoin really only gets adopted when it's a need,

(34:10):
not a want. And for 4 billion people, it's a need, but maybe 10 million people on earth really
understand and comprehend what this is. So I look at this and think, sort of putting a bow on the
question around how does it really get to these outrageous numbers of billions of dollars per
Bitcoin? I fully believe that. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind, we're going to get to billions

(34:31):
of dollars per Bitcoin.
It's just a matter of when, not if, because there's 8 billion people on earth who need
it.
And there are maybe a million people on earth who act like they actually need it So what happens when the other 7 billion people turn up and say we desperately need this like we need water or air
Something's going to happen and it's going to be glorious to watch.

(34:52):
Bitcoin is absolutely ripping and in every bull market,
there's always a new wave of investors and with it,
a flood of new companies, new products and new promises.
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(35:18):
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visit iron.com to learn more which is i-r-e-n.com it's interesting you say that people aren't really

(37:08):
acknowledging the problem because i i definitely see this and even for the people that do acknowledge
the problem i don't think they ever really acknowledge the solution like in australia
especially the housing market is absolutely wild here and the people who are seeing the issues
their answer to it seems to be leverage myself more and buy another house rather than just do

(37:28):
the easy thing of buying Bitcoin. I still think that's a huge hurdle that we need to get over.
The housing market in Australia is absolutely wild. It's the craziest housing market on earth,
to tell you the truth. No other housing market has got a, I guess, a bigger delta between the
average Sydney median house price and the average income. That's currently close to 20 times.

(37:51):
Now, in the US, I think it's something like about five times. And people talk about housing being
expensive over there. It's like, hold my beer, come to Australia, check this out. It's 20 times.
It's just completely outrageous. And this is where I can tell you on a day-to-day basis,
talking to clients, the people who are picking this up the quickest, who are understanding this
is not sustainable, are baby boomers. They're realizing that, hey, I live in a five or a $10

(38:16):
million property or whatever the number is, right? And they've had three kids. They look around at
the kids and they think, holy dooly, the three of them combined don't have enough savings to put a
deposit on this house and the three of them combined couldn't afford the mortgage that's
required to pay for it. So they're doing the numbers in their head thinking, this is not
sustainable and immigration isn't going to solve the problem across any of the Western countries

(38:40):
because through immigration, you're actually lowering the per capita GDP. And if you look at
So saying these property prices are basically sustained through credit growth, and credit growth is fuelled by per capita GDP.
And sadly, in Australia, we've had the lowest growth.
We've actually had negative growth or loss in per capita GDP.

(39:01):
This is a problem across all Western countries, is that we're trying to solve that capital gain problem in our property markets through importing people, and that has been a key driver for sustaining asset prices.
but if the immigrants you're importing don't have the capital to buy into the system that you've got
then you're actually going to have to either lower the interest rates to make it more affordable

(39:23):
or alternatively the property prices are going to fall and this is something that I'm seeing
living in New Zealand at the moment the property market over here is probably off somewhere between
10 to 30 percent depending on the areas that you're looking at and truth be told there's
probably the ability for this to drop another 10 or 10 to 30 percent from where we are now the
prices seem outrageous australia hasn't seen that yet and i think america is trying its its absolute

(39:50):
hardest to avoid um coming face to face with that problem of a slowing housing market i mean just to
put some context on it i live in the third biggest city in australia which if you put that into
american terms are probably like the 25th biggest city or something and where i live to buy like a
three-bedroom apartment, you're looking at somewhere between two and three million dollars.

(40:11):
It's absolutely outrageous. But do you think that the property market here is going to collapse at
some point? What I'm about to say is not going to be popular. Good, say it. Well, I think there's
two or three things that you could change. The government could enforce that would completely
boost the property market and probably double or triple prices from where we are now. Now,

(40:36):
I don't know if anyone wants to have property prices that are trading at somewhere between 40 to 60 times your average annual salary, but there's a host of things that they can do to juice the property market to get that happening.
Now, why I would never bet against the property market is that everyone is in on it.

(40:56):
And what do I mean by that?
I mean the government.
The government's – well, a large chunk of their revenues come from stamp duties and capital gains tax.
So if property prices start falling, all of a sudden their revenue dries up.
So they're invested in making sure that happens.
If you look at particularly the Australian stock market, nearly 40% of the Australian
stock market is made up of banks.

(41:18):
And the number one profit driver for banks is residential mortgage lending.
So if that drops, if property prices drop, all of a sudden 40% of the stock market has
a huge problem.
The bond issuance in Australia, all of that revolves around housing.
You look at it in the US, the majority of the bonds issued are around residential mortgage-backed securities and commercial-backed securities.

(41:40):
The commercial market in the US is cactus, so too in Australia.
Dare say it's the same in New Zealand or the UK.
All of a sudden, there's a whole host of sort of cracks in the wall appearing if they don't sort that out.
So what I'm saying is everyone is invested in making sure that property goes up, and it's very difficult to bet against the consensus bet.
it's there's so much um there are so much easier ways to make money than betting against the

(42:05):
consensus view and one of those is just buy bitcoin well yeah that is the uh the great thing
about bitcoin is if you want your house to get cheaper just just buy bitcoin now and wait a
little bit but like i i agree with what you're saying like it's it's the best thing is not to
go against consensus on these things because it doesn't often pay off but when it does pay off
It pays off massively.
And we saw that in 2008.

(42:26):
Like, this is literally what happened then.
Do you think there is potential of another 2008-style housing crash at some point?
Yes, there is.
The financial markets have gotten a little bit savvier.
I think in Australia there is, but we've got a very different finance market, how they
do the funding in Australia.
The US, I think, is about to, could potentially go through it if they don't sort out the interest

(42:51):
rates.
It looks like that US housing market is completely stalled.
Are we going to see a rerun of the GFC?
In all likelihood, no, I don't think we will.
And this is where, from a personal view, and this is where the conversations I think most
Bitcoiners are looking at is, you mentioned a $2 million to $3 million property for a
two to three bedroom.
I'm sure it's lovely.

(43:12):
But if you were to rent that, it's probably not going to cost you more than, let's say,
$90,000 a year to rent that, less than $2,000 a year.
Would that be a fair assessment per week?
I don't know, but wait, how much would that be per week?
$2,000 per week for a $3 million property.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that would probably be less than that.

(43:33):
Maybe $3,000 a week?
I think it'd be less.
Yeah.
So let's just say it is $3,000 a week.
That's circa 5%.
But you would much rather pay the $3,000 a week to live in that property
than you would to own it.
Because to own it means you're going to have to sell down
probably about $500,000 worth of Bitcoin.
And then you're going to take on a mortgage for a million dollars,

(43:55):
which is going to cost you 6% per annum.
If you're living in it, it's gross money that you've got to earn.
So, sorry, net you've got to pay.
So that's going to be $60,000 per annum.
If you've got to pay that out of net money,
you've got to earn $100,000 to pay that 60.
So before you've got out of bed,
you've had to sell $500,000 of Bitcoin
and you've got to have earned over $100,000 a year

(44:16):
before you've put food on the table.
And I look at that and think,
If I'm Danny, I'm thinking maybe we just rent for a year or two and see how that goes because it's only going to cost us 100 grand a year.
And we don't have a mortgage.
We don't have to sell Bitcoin.
We can let that thing roll.
And what I'm finding is more and more Bitcoiners are starting to have that realization that maybe property isn't the best property or the best use case for our money.

(44:42):
But that is a very real concern.
So is the Bitcoin mantra here, we'll owe nothing but Bitcoin and be happy?
It looks like it, doesn't it?
isn't that terrible well as long as you're a bitcoin that i think that's uh that's the best
place you can be um so back to bitcoin everything we're talking we've talked about here um is really

(45:04):
about bitcoin as this savings vehicle this generational wealth things that we pass down
um we touched briefly on the idea of using it as like a medium exchange in a unit of account but
do you do you still believe in that narrative because it sounds like you are you're coming
at this much more from like the saving side do you think that is the ultimate use case for bitcoin
or do you think it needs to evolve into being all elements of money uh i i think we're going to have

(45:29):
and this is an unpopular opinion but i look at the breakdown in market capitalization of each of the
use cases so you store a value medium exchange and unit of account store value is circa 25 to
30 trillion dollar market in you you can blur the line on that by saying that the stock market and
the real estate market is now the store of value, but let's just go with gold at being circa 30

(45:52):
trillion. I definitely think those other things are a store of value though.
I do too. But for this example, let's assume it's 30 trillion. The mean of exchange market is
somewhere between a hundred to $200 trillion worth of value that it basically looks after.
That's a huge market that's protected and has, I guess, a competitive moat supported by armies,

(46:14):
tanks, air force, governments, police, you name it. It's a very difficult use case to,
I guess, to cajole into Bitcoin. And sometimes I look at this on the media exchange market and
wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze, because you have to take those governments head on and
disrupt their business model, which is printing dollars, to replace it with Bitcoin. And I think

(46:37):
if you can control and are the number one use case in a store of value function and a unit of
account function, then by default and in time, you will end up with the mean of exchange.
So I look at this and think 95% of the market cap is tied up between the bookends of store of value
and unit of account. So do we really need the mean of exchange market right now? Why don't we just

(47:03):
consolidate control and use case of store of value and meet and unit of account and through time we
and just adoption you'll end up owning the meet of exchange account anyway that makes sense so
and when it comes to the store of value you threw out 25 to 30 trillion is that the number
yep give or take do you do you think bitcoin captures the entirety of that market and more

(47:27):
how more i think it has the ability to to control substantially more on that and if we look at this
on a micro level i think we might take um let's take a really wealthy person pick one and and
we'll do a use case on them and use that as a micro micro version of what's going to happen at

(47:51):
a macro level let's go uh let's go really wealthy let's go elon okay elon probably worth two to
three hundred two two to three hundred billion dollars what would he spend on an annual basis
i've had no idea let's say i'm sure he has a pretty great life 50 million
okay 50 million what's that as a percentage of his of his assets that he's spending on an annual

(48:19):
basis. Don't make me do math live, please. Well, let's just say it's less than 1%. Is that fair to
say? Yep. And this is the curious part that we're all going to get to when it comes to holding
Bitcoin is Bitcoin will make up 99% of the assets because we won't want to spend it all. We want to

(48:41):
have our savings. If you look at Elon as an extreme example here, he's lucky to spend less than 1%
of his wealth on an annual basis. We all get there if we just hold Bitcoin, buy Bitcoin and sit.
That's literally all you have to do for generational wealth. And I look at this and think,
this is the curious part that a lot of people really don't comprehend is that

(49:01):
the market for Bitcoin can be 100 times bigger than all of the other assets combined.
So if you look at a pie chart, it looks like an entire white pie with a tiny little orange
sliver down the middle, which is the 0.2 of a percent that currently made up of market cap of
all the assets that we hold. Once people understand what you and I know about Bitcoin,

(49:24):
they're going to hold 99% of their wealth in Bitcoin. So that entire white pie is going to
turn orange and there's going to be a little sliver of 1% that is all other assets, stocks,
bonds, commodities, property, you name it. That's how it's going to work. But it's probably going to
take the next 20 years to achieve that. But what happens to the value of all assets on earth when
that happens. We go from being worth, say there's a quadrillion dollars of assets on earth right now,

(49:49):
and it turns into a hundred quadrillion dollars worth of assets. But 99 of those 100 are made up
in Bitcoin. Because guess what? People want the optionality of future purchases, and they can't
find a better device to do that than Bitcoin. And is this when Bitcoin demonetizes things like
the housing market, the stock market? 100%. And people think that demonetizing the housing market

(50:15):
and the stock market and everything else is going to mean that those things are going to collapse
in fiat terms. That's a total misconception. They're not going to collapse in fiat terms.
They're going to continue to go up and they're going to continue to be inflationary and they're
going to continue to go up through time. It's just that if you benchmark and denominated in Bitcoin,
all of those assets are going to be crashing relative to Bitcoin. And this is the point that

(50:38):
I think our good friend Jeff talks about and does the best job of talking about that we're going to
have hyper deflation where as long as you're saving in Bitcoin, you're going to afford and
be able to do whatever you want because all other assets relative to that will be crashing.
But if you're living in the fiat world, then all these assets are still going to be inflationary
and they're going to go up in value. So we just need to be pricing absolutely everything in Bitcoin,

(51:03):
which I already do. And this is like back to the point you made earlier. Like you said that we're
already living on a Bitcoin standard. And that's absolutely true. When I go out and buy coffee,
I'm not thinking about that in terms of how many sats it costs me. But if I make any kind of
reasonable purchase, I'm always considering what that is in Bitcoin. And so I think what you said

(51:23):
earlier, where you kind of hyper-Bitcoinize one person at a time, I think that's probably the
most likely path here. It's just, I don't know how long it takes to scale up to being 8 billion
people. But I do think we're going to get there. I do wonder, though, why this cycle we've not seen
a renewed interest from kind of just retail participants, because like every previous cycle,

(51:47):
we've seen massive upticks in things like Google search trends, like exchange volumes,
things like that. And this time it seems pretty quiet at the moment.
I think it a combination Bitcoin no longer novel so people don have to research and look up what Bitcoin is They know what it is And sadly I think a lot of people had a really bad experience in the last cycle

(52:11):
They were promised, you know, a million dollar Bitcoin
or a hundred thousand dollar Bitcoin in the last cycle.
I think that was going to be a fair mark to achieve.
But there was a whole host of skulldowery that went on
that ensured that we didn't get there.
The whole FTX blow up was just incredible to watch.
I mean, we had a ringside seat to watch this absolute carnage in the markets play out.

(52:34):
And a lot of people confused what happened in the FTX scandal with there was a compromise
to the Bitcoin network and nothing could be further from the truth.
And I remember having a conversation with Vijay, boy Patty, maybe six months before
FTX blew up.
And I asked him the question, what's the thing that could really derail Bitcoin?
And he said, look, from a reputation perspective, one of the major exchanges blowing up would be really detrimental and could push us back five or 10 years.

(53:02):
But that would be, even if the network continued to work perfectly, it would just be a reputational damage, even though the network was totally unscathed.
And this was the problem that I think a lot of people have got PTSD from Bitcoin.
A lot of people bought in 2017 and then watched it drop 75, 80 percent.
And then they came back around, what was it, maybe November, October, November 2022, and thought, oh, great, I'm going to get on this.

(53:31):
It's going to go up and then bang, here's your next 80 percent drop or 75 percent drop.
It's just absolutely brutal.
And this is where it's really in a case in emotional control, being invested in Bitcoin because of the volatility.
And this is where in making sure you're a success with this, you really need to have a really long time frame and solve the volatility issue with duration.

(53:54):
Just know that you're not going to touch it for five or 10 years.
And then as my father and I have joked about in years gone past, he said, remember the mean with the monk getting kicked in the balls just continuously?
And he's sitting there smiling as he's getting kicked in the balls.
my father said it to me and basically said this this is like bitcoin you get kicked in the ball

(54:15):
for five years straight then you wake up rich so i think and you just end up enjoying it yeah
that's the fun part which 100 yeah i do think that last cycle was extra brutal as well in the
sense that we had that initial pump then it dropped 60 so if you were new to bitcoin we had a lot of
new people sort of post covid if you were new to bitcoin then you saw it go down 60 where you were

(54:38):
like oh shit have I got this completely wrong it then pumped to new all-time highs then dropped 80%
in a matter of like months it that is a pretty brutal first bull and bear market to go through
and and maybe maybe what we need to see is Bitcoin to just either have a less volatile
bear market or not have a bear market for retail to have the confidence to come back yeah like

(55:00):
it's just going to take time and now that we've got the world's greatest salesman in Larry Fink on
the team alongside Sailor. I look at that and think it's just a matter of time before everyone
comes around to their way of thinking. But it's literally PTSD from just the volatility whipping
people in and out of positions and thinking they're going to be rich and then having the

(55:24):
rude awakening that all of a sudden the expectations don't meet the reality. This is probably going to
continue to happen, but I think we're going to have much more muted cycles moving forward.
I mean, I think, yeah, 100%. This is something I was talking to Joe and Checkmate and Matt Pines about on the show that went out yesterday. Like, I think everyone is now under the belief that maybe cycles aren't going to look the same, maybe completely broken. Like, I feel like that's becoming common consensus. And whenever things like that come to common consensus, we'll see it change and we'll see a big bear market. Like, that's inevitable.

(55:58):
but like i'm at the moment at like 70 ish percent sure the the kind of four-year traditional cycles
are done i don't know where you stand on that i just think we're entering a very different market
from where we were you look at the halving cycle is now a much uh it's diminutive relative to its
influence on what the market is moving forward the the size the scope the liquidity and the players

(56:22):
who are entering the market just means it's a very different profile to what it had and to your point
retail is not here. That's right. Retail isn't here. It's not being pushed by retail anymore.
Now there's institutional investors. And I think probably the best tip of the cap to Bitcoin that
I've seen is Vanguard now looking to create a Bitcoin ETF. Everyone bends the knee. Everyone

(56:44):
is going to do that after they just shit on it for two years straight. And then the funny part is,
I think the person who's now CEO of Vanguard had a huge part to do in the launch of the Bitcoin ETF for BlackRock.
And so he's probably watched his baby become the greatest ETF ever invented or launched by BlackRock,

(57:05):
thinking, well, I get a chance to do that here at Vanguard.
So he's going to absolutely have a 180 backflip and distribute that to the people who've got $10 trillion of assets with them.
I mean, imagine being Vanguard and seeing BlackRock launch the most successful ETF in their history and thinking you've been doing a good thing by your investors.

(57:25):
It's just insane.
All right.
So just to close out, I want to talk about this is kind of in line with some of the stuff you do at Bitcoin Advisor.
But for people who are like sat on their Bitcoin now and they are looking at this as something they want to have for multiple decades, generations passed down to their family.
what are the kind of things that people need to have in place that you you think

(57:46):
is overlooked by bitcoiners oh that's a really good question there are probably
i think there are five things that i'd like to share that i think will probably have the biggest
impact in helping bitcoiners keep their keep their bitcoin um and then i'll talk a little bit
more on the self-custody side of things which is completely separate to this but i think and this is

(58:10):
a very unpopular opinion. And sadly, my job requires me to have really awful conversations
with people who are very lovely. But in wanting to plan for the worst and hope for the best,
there are certain things you need to do to protect your Bitcoin. And statistically speaking,
the number one thing that you can do to protect your Bitcoin is ensure that

(58:31):
you don't go through a divorce. So if you look at the marriage stats in Western countries,
you're upwards of 50% in divorce.
And that is the surest way to halve your Bitcoin pile.
And there are ways to mitigate that,
but that's the number one thing
that you need to be concerned with.
The second thing that you want to try and avoid through time,

(58:51):
and it's not a one-off event,
it can happen multiple times through life,
is ensuring that you minimize
the effect of taxes on your Bitcoin.
So how do you do that?
Well, just have a look at the major taxes
that you want to avoid.
the first one is capital gains tax buying and selling your bitcoin you know in australia we've

(59:12):
got a 25 tax rate if you've held your bitcoin for more than one year in the us uk it can be anywhere
from 25 to 50 percent canada can be higher again and i look at that and think that's a really really
fast way to halve the amount of bitcoin that you're holding if you're not prudent with it and
you start trading it's very difficult to get ahead if you're going to be you know basically giving

(59:33):
half to the government every time you start trading. The other, I think, really important
tax to avoid, it's not so relevant in Australia and New Zealand, but it is in the UK, US and Canada.
This is an awful one, but it's probably going to come to the rest of the world is estate taxes.
And the problem with estate taxes is that it's very difficult to get out of. You need to plan.
And there are ways and means to mitigate the effect of this, but avoiding estate taxes can

(59:59):
increase the amount of Bitcoin that you leave to your loved ones by 66%. And so I look at this and
think, if you could talk to any Bitcoiner and say, hey, do you want to leave your loved ones 66%
more Bitcoin? We'd all jump at it. But it just requires forethought and planning to ensure that
you're putting those Bitcoin in structures that are going to avoid those estate taxes on death.

(01:00:21):
And this is where the UK, the US, Canada, they all have remedies to avoid that, but it's just about actually having the conversation and making sure that you are structured in the best way possible to avoid that.
The other one that I think is really important from a generational perspective, and this comes down to actually passing on wealth.

(01:00:43):
And one of the problems that we see with, I guess, a number of clients is they pass on the wealth without passing on the values.
They're too quick to pass on the value without passing on the values that actually created it.
And if you look at statistically, the first generation makes it 70% of the wealth is lost by the second generation and 90% is lost by the third generation.

(01:01:05):
So if you think that Bitcoin's an asset that can last the next thousand years and provide for generational wealth, ensuring that you pass down your values that actually created this wealth is probably the most important thing you can do.
And I think a lot of that comes down to having financial education around Bitcoin, what's the important or significance to it, how to adequately care for it, look after it, grow it, and most importantly, ensure that you don't lose it.

(01:01:31):
And I guess probably the final thing that I'd look at is making sure, I guess, you avoid the two key areas that can level any amount of wealth, whether it comes to Bitcoin or literally Elon Musk or anyone else.
It doesn't matter how much you're worth, the two things to avoid when you have wealth that you want to pass down and maintain for generations is to ensure two things.

(01:01:57):
One is gambling in any form that it might take.
It might be sports betting.
It might be betting on shit coins.
You name it, avoid it.
And the other thing is ensuring that you don't take on any debt.
And they're the only two things that can level any amount of wealth.
And so ensuring that you prepare for those things, and most importantly, you educate the next generation on how to basically manage those things, I think is the most important thing for preserving your Bitcoin through time.

(01:02:27):
I think that passing down of values is super interesting because that has both negative ramifications for like you and your family and for Bitcoin as a whole.
Like if we don't pass down the values of what Bitcoin is and why it's important, then Bitcoin is also doomed eventually.
And I can think about that from like a personal level.

(01:02:48):
So my granddad worked on the shipyards all his life.
My dad like ran businesses.
He didn't do anything with his hands, but it's like he was still very keen as a hobby.
In fact, just complete tangent.
But we were in Liverpool once.
My granddad died before I was born.
And we were in Liverpool once when I was like 16 years old, me and the family walking around

(01:03:08):
the docks there.
And my dad just stopped and was like, what's going on?
He was like, I built that boat.
And it was a boat that him and his dad had built like 40 years earlier, just floating
in Liverpool docks as we were walking around.
It was crazy.
But the reason I say this is like, so my granddad obviously worked with his hands.
Like he was incredible with that.
Passed a lot of that down to my dad, who was also incredible with it.

(01:03:31):
And I can barely put a TV on the wall.
And like, this is how these things can get lost through generations.
And I think with Bitcoin, we need to be really conscious of passing down the values of it to our kids and hopefully longer.
That raises a really good point.
Apathy is probably the only thing that can ruin Bitcoin.
and basically apathy will grow with those who haven't built it.

(01:03:55):
So that's going to be a really tough thing for us to hand down to our kids.
They're going to inherit basically the internet and internet money
and think that money grows on trees.
But things couldn't be further from the truth.
We've basically experienced the last 10 years of Bitcoin
and the fights that you've had to have to get to this point in time,
and then it feels like, oh, the rest of the world's coming to the party now.

(01:04:17):
but the generations that are going to inherit it aren't going to understand the struggles that
everyone went through to preserve this network as we we see it today and i look at sort of the two
biggest examples of conflict that i've seen in the last 10 years one's a block size war and one's
what's currently happening with call v knots it's um it's going to be really interesting and like

(01:04:39):
bitcoiners love to talk about the fourth turning like i just did a show with brandon quitton on it
um but the fourth turning probably exists within bitcoin too it's like we we need to make sure
like good the good times that the strong men make don't end up in a weak men making bad times
how do we avoid that just i really don't know the answer to that do you know we avoid it by

(01:05:00):
more bitcoin podcasts um well okay so the last part that you i'm trying 40 hours a week um
So the last part that you wanted to get onto there was the self-custody side.
Yeah, I think it's really important to self-custody your Bitcoin.
And I look at all of the Bitcoin wrappers that we've got available today as really entry points.

(01:05:25):
They're top of funnel.
I look at the Bitcoin ETF.
I look at MicroStrategy, MetaPlanet, all the other Bitcoin treasuries or proxies, the Bitcoin miners, the ETFs.
I look at that and think that's really top of funnel.
That's kind of getting people interested in Bitcoin.
and that's the teaser.
That's the entree.
The main is actually delving down into the rabbit hole

(01:05:46):
and actually self-casting this Bitcoin.
And this is where the rewards for self-casting your Bitcoin
into the future, I think, are going to be astronomical.
And this is where I would urge people to say,
start wherever they start.
You know, you do you is probably one of my most famous sayings
that wherever you're comfortable starting, start there.
But I urge everyone to go down that Bitcoin rabbit hole,

(01:06:08):
get into bitcoin self-custody because the benefits of self-custodying your bitcoin long term are going
to provide literally for generations to come once you understand how to preserve your wealth how to
custody it safely the benefits that accrue to you who self-custody bitcoin are going to be enormous
particularly with the credit markets that i see building out on this is that if you own your

(01:06:29):
bitcoin and you self-custody you'll be able to access any credit market on earth and you look at
Say the Swiss have got near 0% interest rates.
You've got the Japanese central bank has got an interest rate of 0.5%.
Bitcoin's the first globally ubiquitous asset.
And being the first globally ubiquitous asset, you'll be able to access those markets with cheaper interest rates.

(01:06:51):
Now, if you've got a Bitcoin wrapper like the ETF or a micro strategy,
you won't be able to get a margin lending facility at those rates globally
because you'll be stuck with the local jurisdiction
and whatever interest rates are offered there.
So purely from a self-interest,
I think it's important to go down that self-custody rabbit hole.

(01:07:11):
And this is where I spent the last 10 years
trying to help clients self-custody that Bitcoin
in a way that removes every single point of failure
from their custody and ensures that they can't muck it up.
Because the last thing I'd want to see is
telling people how to buy Bitcoin
and go down that rabbit hole and then
They don't do it properly.

(01:07:32):
They lose it and turn around in five years' time and say, hey, you know all those things
you did.
How do I recover it?
And this is where I've been fortunate giving advice on this in the last 10 years.
I'm fortunate to say we haven't lost a single Satoshi helping clients self-custody their
Bitcoin because we do it in a way that offers multiple redundancies for their self-custody.

(01:07:55):
So you've not lost a single Satoshi.
I mean, that's incredible.
We need to keep that going.
um peter this has been amazing i think this is the least hair we've ever had on a podcast i might i
might title this one but between two hairs um but before you go where do you want to send anyone who
wants to find out more about you or bitcoin advisor anything you're doing i think probably

(01:08:16):
the best place would be um the bitcoinadvisor.com and that's advisor with an er there's a whole host
of resources there um you can download a bitcoin advisor chat bot if you want a whole host to help
with securing your Bitcoin, we give away all our IP for free. So we just want to make sure that
everyone self-custries their Bitcoin in the best way possible. And I urge everyone to take as much

(01:08:41):
of our information as possible and apply it to themselves personally. And if you need any help
on a personal level, just reach out and book some time with us. It's easy to do.
Love it. Thank you for this, Peter. You're the man. I know I bug you with a call every week
asking you about different things that happen in Australia, different tax implications of
whatever it is. You're my personal Bitcoin advisor. So I really appreciate it, man. And I will speak

(01:09:05):
to you very soon. Thank you, Danny. Appreciate you.