March 6, 2025 • 33 mins
The bustling streets of São Paulo and New York City share a familiar energy, but their business cultures couldn't be more different. What drives professionals to thrive in both cities?
For professionals considering international career moves or doing business in Brazil, understanding the nuances between American directness and Brazilian relationship-building could make or break your success.
In this episode, you will gain authentic insights about work-life dynamics in São Paulo versus other global cities, learn practical tips for navigating cultural differences in business settings, and discover why São Paulo is considered the powerhouse of Latin America.
Join Emily Witt and Mônica Ramos Machado as they share their firsthand experiences navigating professional life between São Paulo and major global cities.
Topics Discussed:
- Cultural differences in business practices between Brazil, US, and Europe
- The importance of relationship-building in Brazilian business culture
- Work-life balance comparisons across different regions
- São Paulo's unique position as Latin America's business hub
- The challenges and rewards of international career moves
- The significance of proper business etiquette in Brazil
- Impact of time zones on global business operations
- Adaptation strategies for different business cultures
- The evolution of professional identity across cultures
- Tips for foreigners working with Brazilian companies
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Hi, and welcome to today's edition of Why São Paulo?
The podcast where we explore Brazil's magic through its people and its places.
I'm Emily Witt, an American legal recruiter with a deep appreciation for Brazil and itsculture.
Today, I'm joined by Monica Hamos Machado, a fellow legal recruiter who's moving back toSão Paulo after nine years abroad.
(00:33):
When we recorded this, Monica was in middle of packing up her life in the United States,and I was living out of a suitcase in a hotel waiting to move into my apartment.
We were both in transition, navigating big changes, reflecting on where we've been, andlooking ahead to new beginnings in Brazil.
Sao Paulo is a sophisticated, fast-paced metropolis, and it reminds me a lot of New YorkCity.
(01:00):
But doing business here, like
anywhere else comes with its own nuances.
Relationships are everything.
Trust is at the core of business dealings and cultural differences shape the way peoplework, whether it's Brazil, the US or Europe.
Monica and I are diving into what makes Sao Paulo one of the best cities in the world,from career opportunities to cultural insights and the nuances of a work-life balance.
(01:27):
So whether you're an expat, a business professional, or just curious about Brazil, staytuned for this next edition of Y Cell Policy.
Let's begin with the question I ask everyone and that is, do you have a special place orarea in Sao Paulo that is near and dear to your heart that you want to share?
(01:50):
let me think clear because honestly there are so many places that I love in São Paulo.
First, it's my hometown.
Second, it's too big.
So there are so many amazing places.
So I'm gonna start with Tafil.
but probably I'm gonna forget about so many others.
(02:11):
So, I was born and raised in Vila Madalena, Pinheiros, Alto de Pinheiros, that region.
So, it's super meaningful to me.
And I love like Praça das Corujas, Praça Pôr do Sol.
They are so, so beautiful.
They are really nice parks and
(02:32):
I really love them and I have great memories and once I'm in São Paulo I always love towalk around and just be there and I mean being there and walking around is enough.
So Vila Madalena has so many amazing places and mean different spots.
I would say the street art scenes, there are so many street art streets.
(02:55):
like Beco do Batman that it's super famous nowadays but I've known for so long even whenit was not that famous I'm super into arts all kind of arts so for me like Masp Museum,
MAM Museum like in the Parque
Ibirapuera that's so gorgeous as well.
(03:17):
I mean there are so many beautiful places.
Mercadão of São Paulo, that's Mercado Municipal.
It's super nice because you feel that you are in São Paulo, but also you feel that you arein other place of Brazil.
You can find so many different food and people and I mean different cultures of Brazil inSão Paulo.
(03:41):
Yeah, no, I know exactly what you mean.
the energy is just really, really incredible here.
That being said, energy pulling forces, you found yourself all over the world, London,Miami, the Boca Raton area, New York, right?
Like, what is pulling you back?
(04:02):
I think we have some of the answer that you talked about is home, but you know,
Can you explain this feeling of timing and going back to the city?
Sure, Well, after living in so many different places, as you said, I realized that
Being close to my family and my roots, it's priceless.
(04:25):
It's the most important thing on earth.
And I was very lucky to be able to live abroad in a time that my daughter was, I mean, achild.
She was born in United States.
She's American.
So I could raise her
not only abroad, it's super challenging, but for her it was good.
(04:47):
It was amazing.
But also in a time that my parents, my family were able to visit me a lot.
What it means, like things are changing now.
My parents are getting older.
My daughter is, already has
her attachment and her roots.
But from now on it's going to be so hard for her to moving around.
(05:11):
That's why I'm coming back to Brazil.
Her parents are Brazilian.
She has like extended family and a big family in Brazil.
So I think
I always wanted to be back to Brazil, but now it's the right time for me and my daughter,personally and professionally.
(05:33):
Yeah, no, that's great.
speaking of professionally, you and I share the same role.
We're both legal recruiters and wanted to just ask you how you fell into it and, you know,a little bit about your story.
mean, I think since I was born, I always had this great connection to myself.
(05:54):
I think people are different and there are people that can't live, can't do crazy stuffthat I do, moving around and living by myself.
I'm coming back to my hometown, to my country, to my family, to my culture, that it's mycomfort zone.
But at the same time, I'm not the same person anymore.
(06:17):
I'm a different person now.
So talking about legal recruitment, it's the same thing.
I've lived abroad.
I've learned so much from the Europeans, from the Americans, from, I mean, the experts,especially in New York.
But moving back to Brazil, work-wise, I'm different as well.
(06:39):
Yeah, I-
São Paulo is a super sophisticated city.
It's like a super developed country for Latin America.
mean, it's the place to be in Latin America, right?
But it's still like they have different backgrounds.
think the legal recruitment market is developing a lot there, but it's still embryonic ifwe compare to United States and the UK.
(07:05):
for example, the place that I had experience.
Yeah, and what are some of the similarities and differences of work culture in the regionsthat you've worked?
Okay, there are so many differences, okay?
Let's start with the United States, okay?
Because you're gonna tell me if you agree or not, okay?
(07:27):
Because you're American and you are an expert in United States.
I think people are much more direct objective and time is money and what else?
People...
I mean, people are always in a rush because they respect each other times and they arefocused on delivery.
(07:49):
They are focused on being practical, hands-on, and I think it's a really productivecountry.
Working in the United States taught me a lot to be more focused,
to be more direct, be more productive, to be on time.
(08:13):
So I don't know if you agree.
Yeah, well, I'm nodding my head because I agree with you 100%.
But where I do want to go with this and it's something I appreciate about being here is,we have all of these things, punctuality, results, time is money, go, go, go, go, go.
(08:35):
But it's very sales.
efficient!
I'm sorry for interrupting you, but you guys are really efficient!
However, someone who has worked in the legal industry and in professional environments inthe United States for far too long, there is a cost element of that.
And I think you and I can both agree.
(08:56):
mean, with that wonderful aspect of time is money and all of these other things aboutefficiency,
there is something that is lost sometimes, which is like just a moment to sort of take itall in and not be in a rush and maybe shut down after a certain hour.
(09:18):
I mean, it's, feel all the time I have to answer to someone tomorrow, not tomorrow, butnow, right?
And it's like everything under, right?
And that can really, that is the cost.
that I think that builds and we have had previous conversations about this, like thatsometimes can involve like taking lunch at your desk, like getting food on your computer,
(09:40):
cause you're like trying to do five different things at once.
I've, you know, I've had many times where like my drink, my drink is spilled on mykeyboard or, you know, and now I'm in the shop because I'm doing too much.
And I think the mental health element, I mean, I think that's just the world has picked upin general.
in terms of how quickly our response times are because we are so accessible.
(10:03):
But one of the things that I find particularly challenging about American work culture isthis, you know, must be on all the time.
it's, you know, I think the other thing too is you get a badge of honor if you've workedthrough lunch or if you've worked all weekend or, you know, it's almost like,
gave up time on my holiday to do work or I'm only going for a week.
(10:28):
I think there's a lot of, misery is comfort, in, the work culture environment.
And, that pulls away from just taking a step back and like, maybe, you know, in enjoying amoment, I'll use an example.
I arrived here on New Year's day, in South hollow.
And for me, like,
(10:49):
the whole city outside of the pharmacies and a very small amount of people in the movietheater, which I happened to go to, it was so wonderful to just take this day, I'd have it
be totally quiet and see others doing that as well.
And so I think like culturally, you arrive New Year's Day in New York City, restaurantsare open, bars are open, the gyms.
(11:14):
or, you know, New Year's special, you've got people working out at 7 a.m., New Year'smorning, we're all ready to go.
And, you know, I think that can come at a cost because you really never fully release,right?
I couldn't agree more.
I mean, talking about that, I can see clearly the difference between Europe, Latin Americaand the United States.
(11:36):
So I can talk about UK, that I had this amazing experience and
Europe in general because I'm an European citizen and I know Europe very well.
And Brazil slash Latin America because for obvious reasons I'm Brazilian and I've beenworking with Latin America.
So I think the key factor in Latin America is relationship.
(12:00):
You have to build it up solid relationships.
I'm not saying that we mix work
and pleasure, work and relationships, work and family.
But in the end of the day, it counts a lot.
It's super important to build up amazing relationships, great relationships.
(12:20):
You cannot do business without getting to know that person.
And in United States you can.
like and sometimes they even prefer I don't want to know your name I don't want to knowyour background I just want to do business with you and I don't care about you or your
life so as everything life has the good part and bad part or pros and cons or as you saidI mean there is the the terrible side
(12:47):
And the Europeans, on the other hand, they really are focused on the well balance ofworking and personal life.
So, I mean, they...
Hold on, can you explain what that is?
sorry you see that I even got confused and I was like
what is the way that there's people out there that actually are proactive about balancingwork and I need a whole primer on what that means.
(13:16):
I'm not familiar with this expression.
Interesting, over the Latin Americans, in terms of...
sure.
For sure.
And don't forget, we're talking about São Paulo, one of the biggest cities in the world,the most important city in Latin America that is super different than other cities in
(13:47):
Brazil.
Like we make jokes that Cariocas, people in Rio de Janeiro, they don't work.
Like the New Yorkers do this kind of jokes with the Floridians, you know?
right.
Yeah, actually, you know what?
Now that we're having this conversation, one of the reasons why I choose to work here inSao Paulo, because people are like, you know, sort of going with the theme of this podcast
(14:10):
name, Why Sao Paulo?
It reminds me, the hustle culture is very evident here and more so than it is in Europe.
So you're saying all this, at first I was teasing,
and being like, wait, but no, that is essentially, think, one of the reasons why I slidein and feel so at home here, because I'm like, there are super rushed people with
(14:32):
backpacks all over the city.
they've got the backpacks in the front and they're all wearing backpacks and they're in arush and they come out of the train.
And there's something for me, I think what has always drawn me to the city is
this element of, wait, I like this energy.
It feels like I'm home.
(14:53):
yes, yeah.
I actually like, one of the most invigorating things for me here is, you know, when I'm ona weekday, it's a very similar feeling to New York City because sort of in lieu of coffee
carts, which we have in the city, you know, people are like running, going to coffeecarts, going to Starbucks.
(15:14):
grabbing their morning coffee here.
If you happen to be near a metro stop or a bus station earlier in the morning during rushhour, it's kind of cool because from New York you're like, there's people out there making
fresh OJ.
But there's this community of that is very evident and very in a rush at the very earlyhours of the morning.
(15:39):
And I love seeing
the people on the street like with their cakes and you know the equivalents of our likebagels and cream cheese and a cup of coffee in New York City and I you know there's
there's like orange juice and and cakes and so I love that energy so so now that you arementioning this I'm not surprised because I think for me it's it's what draws me to this
(16:05):
region as a New Yorker yeah.
I'm so happy for you.
I'm sure that you're gonna thrive.
And I'm being very honest.
I'm being very honest because you know, it's not for everyone.
We talked about this the other day.
It's not easy to move around, to move abroad.
(16:25):
There are a lot of things that you put on the table.
emotionally speaking, psychologically speaking, financially speaking, there are so manythings that are involved and it's really hard.
But the leverage, the assets, it's really worth it.
In the end of the day, it's amazing.
(16:47):
But it's not...
It's true.
to thrive in a city as New York, as Sao Paulo.
It's hard, especially with the cultural barriers, the language barriers.
It's not easy.
at end of the day, I always remember, if you can make here, you can make anywhere.
(17:08):
It's for New York.
think you can use this sentence for every single big city that you go.
You have to think, if you can make here, I can make anywhere.
If I make here.
it's so true because you're taking yourself up and putting yourself in a situation that'snot familiar.
(17:31):
with a lot of that comes, and that could be language barriers, culture barriers, people dointeract differently, whether it be in business or even just going out to a restaurant.
Do you leave a tip?
Do you not leave a tip?
Which countries do you leave tips in?
you know, do you tip the Uber drivers or things that are like natural in one country.
(17:54):
And then also, you you and I have both talked about this, like there are certain elementsof bureaucracy, whether you're moving back to your home country or going to a new country
that papers you have to fill out, things are not as easy, you know, as.
I mentioned like I'm really drained, I'm really exhausted because I'm moving back to SaoPaulo in two weeks time and I'm still dealing with the bureaucracy and I'm moving back to
(18:21):
my hometown, my country and still like I haven't been sleeping, doing so many things.
Can you imagine?
For a foreigner.
Like moving abroad is such a big deal.
But again, it's worth it.
It's the best thing you can do in your life.
And you become a much more fulfilled person and stronger.
(18:44):
And you understand yourself and the world better.
Yeah, I mean, even you and I have talked about this coming back to a city as someone whois new and that there's something extremely refreshing and invigorating.
We had talked about how you're going to build professional networks here because
(19:09):
things will change.
We talked about how we love to be in person with people, right?
So you're going to come back here as a new person.
I mean, you're still the same person, but you've grown and now you're...
Yeah.
joke like when I moved to New York, I'm like, oh, okay, I've arranged so many meetings andcoffees and this and that.
(19:32):
And my boss was like, for what?
You can sort it out this by phone.
And I'm like, but I'm not gonna get the most of it.
And then now it's the another way around.
I have so many meetings, so many meetings of how I'm like, oh my God, do I have to seethis person in person?
Is it?
(19:54):
Should I?
Because look at the traffic jam and this and that.
And I have, I know, a lot of work.
So it's funny.
As I said, like for Americans, you have to be direct.
You have to be, I mean the directness is so important.
You have to be efficient.
(20:15):
You have to deliver.
If you are in New York, much more.
Because why am I highlighting this?
we can compare Brazil and the United States regarding states.
mean, the states are so different.
We are talking about completely different countries, but they are so big.
They have a huge population.
(20:35):
And even in the same country, people are so different because each state is so different.
So I've learned, I mean, how to work as an American and how to work
as an European and how to work as a Brazilian.
But still, working in New York, was priceless because it's so different.
(20:57):
It's so rough.
Yeah.
And I mean, I think there's something to be said for that.
mean, I've in terms of professionally post college, my experience is limited to New York.
mean, even in Sao Paulo, I'm working, but my work is still coming out of the United Statesand New York.
And so I would also say that, you've worked in two different cities in the US.
(21:22):
So I think
New York is kind of in its own little category.
Yeah, yeah.
And so there are other regions of the US that might be different.
And actually, you're bringing up a really good point for me right now where I'm justconnecting the dots on the call.
(21:46):
I feel like one of the similarities that
I'm becoming more and more aware of, and especially now that we are talking about this, isthis concept of like the US and Brazil are giant countries with states making up the
framework of these countries, whereas the distance in Europe to go from, let's say, I'lluse Portugal to Italy, right?
(22:12):
Or you're going from two very different countries.
I think, right.
Yeah, I'm saying this because I still work with Europe and I have so many friends andcontact.
And honestly, for me, it's like other planet, like Sao Paulo and New York, they are soattached for obvious reasons.
(22:34):
First, they are so similar.
They hustle, they are big cities, they are the financial centers, but they have almost thesame time zone that are so many
people from Sao Paulo and New York and people from New York are always traveling to SaoPaulo and I mean I'm super attached to London but still every year I'm not that attached
(22:59):
anymore because it's like oh my god they are working with Asia and Middle East andAustralia and I'm like I can't follow this time zone and this difference and you know
Yeah, it's true.
It's true.
And so the states in Brazil, they have such a huge area within the country, but statesalso have, even though the sort of the cultural language is somewhat similar, the
(23:31):
differences between someone in New York versus someone in the other areas of the countryversus
Right, it's similar to Brazil.
You have such a dynamic makeup of one country specifically, which I think is common.
I just, feel, I can't explain it.
(23:52):
When I'm in Sao Paulo or in Brazil, I really feel aligned emotionally with home.
It could be that.
The time zone thing, the energy here, it feels very similar in areas that are veryuniquely different, but also a huge similar aspect as well.
(24:15):
couldn't agree more.
The restaurants, I mean, London, you can find amazing restaurants, of course, from aroundthe globe.
mean, you can find food from literally
every single country, but it's different in New York.
Sometimes I was like, it's kind of like I'm in Sao Paulo, you know, or you are in SaoPaulo and you feel like, I can find really nice restaurants here from around the world and
(24:40):
amazing food.
but, you know, I think talking about the difference and similarities from, I mean, SaoPaulo and New York, I think we are
so different but at the same time so similar which is awkward to say why I'm saying thatlike we have so many things because we live in really tough cities with a lot of chaos
(25:08):
24x7 and the struggle I mean you eat what you kill definitely
word for...
perfect but at the same time you have everything and but it's still like when i arrived innew york i couldn't i don't know if you're gonna understand maybe yes maybe not perhaps
(25:32):
you can understand a little bit what i'm talking about people in san paulo are
more rough than people in Brazil but still it's far away from New York because in SaoPaulo we say good morning, good afternoon, good night, how are you?
Let's have a coffee.
In New York you can't say yeah you can't say even hi to your neighbor.
(25:57):
I remember one of my best friends
true.
was in my apartment in Manhattan for one month, I was traveling abroad.
And then she was like, what's the problem with your neighbors?
I say hi, good morning.
They look at me and they come back to their phones.
I said, it's not personal, don't get too personal.
(26:18):
It's New York.
I know that it's not nice, but just like let it go, you know, because they're different.
You know, it's interesting too, even, you know, as a New Yorker here, I realize like, I'mnot used to people doing that and also the return expectation.
you know, sometimes if I'm listening to our podcasts or like, I don't want to be rude,right?
(26:45):
But sometimes, and so I sometimes have to be like,
Right, this, you you have to, the importance of this is really strong.
And even though you come from a place where people don't do it, like, I sometimes will,like, it'll register and I'm like, wait, no, like, make sure you're saying hello, don't
(27:07):
forget, you know, someone just walked by, you know, make sure you greet them.
And I think it takes a little bit of getting used to on both ends.
just because of, you I think there's something beautiful about saying hi and, you know,more often than not, I also get a hug from a lot of people as well, which is, know, and
even more so from a kiss.
And it's nice.
It's, you know, it's a very warm feeling, but also still something that I had to acclimatemyself to in terms of reciprocity.
(27:35):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, but at the same time we have to respect different cultures.
It doesn't mean that mine is completely right and yours is completely different.
It's what I told my friend.
said, look, you are on holidays.
Those people, they eat work, they kill, they are busy.
Leave them alone, you know?
(27:56):
I wouldn't do that.
I would say good morning.
I would say good afternoon.
I would...
talk to you, but can't judge them because people have different backgrounds, differentcultures and you are in their seat in their country.
Yeah, but of course there are international diplomacy.
(28:17):
That's why they call New Yorkers tough.
Yeah
Totally.
Well, one last question for you.
If you're a worker coming from another country and you are working for a Braziliancompany, here in Brazil or abroad and working for a Brazilian owned company, especially
(28:43):
this element of greeting everyone, hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
Is there anything else that you know off the top of your head culturally that you canrecommend to someone starting off at a Brazilian company that would be helpful?
Yes, it's gonna be a tip for myself as well.
(29:04):
As I told you that I feel like I probably drive so many people crazy.
Like when I moved to DC I was one person, when I moved to London another person, when Imoved to New York another person, when I moved to Florida another person, then I'm gonna
move back to Brazil and probably people look at me and say, my god she's so rough.
(29:25):
She doesn't talk, she's so this and that and then I'm gonna have to remind Monica, you areBrazilian, you are in Brazil.
The dynamics different and you have to build relationships and trust.
Like I was always like this, it's like an asset and leverage.
My personality is like this.
(29:45):
But I had to remotely living abroad like, Monica, don't talk too much, listen more thanspeak.
Monica, be like constant, down to earth, quick.
A lot of pressure.
So coming back to Brazil, I'm sure, and I already have people that look at me and say, youare not the same person anymore.
(30:10):
Of course.
So talking about this,
We have to remind ourselves that in Brazil, relationship is the key factor.
It's super important.
I'm not saying the most important thing.
There are so many.
It's multifactorial.
But I think people are really sociable and into relationship and trust.
(30:33):
Yeah, no, well.
And you can get the best things from our Brazilian personality because you can build it upso many beautiful relationships, you can have amazing friendships, and you can use it even
for working.
I'm not saying that you're gonna mix work and personal life, but you end up
(30:55):
doing business with your friends, with your acquaintance, and the other way around aswell, becoming friends.
I made a lot of friends from my career, especially in Brazil.
Yeah.
great.
I'm excited to have you come back in a few weeks, and this was wonderful.
I'm so glad we got the chance to do this today's SESTA.
(31:19):
And, you know, thank you again.
No, I'm super thankful.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for this opportunity.
I feel like I could have...
said so many more important things but I hope this little I mean I don't know if it wasnice but I think it helps
(31:41):
Yeah, was wonderful.
Well, thank you.
Thank you again and next time in Portuguese, okay?
Of course, and I'm eager to be part of São Paulo again.
I'm so happy that I'm gonna come back to my country, to my beautiful city and I have tohighlight.
(32:02):
Yeah, I have to highlight São Paulo is amazing.
People from São Paulo can't take for granted.
São Paulo is like outstanding, one of the best cities in the world.
I'm glad to hear that.
couldn't agree more and I look forward to seeing you here.
Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Why São Paulo?
(32:25):
Exploring Brazil's magic through its people and places.
I hope you enjoyed the stories about this incredible city learning unique insights fromthe discussion.
If you found this episode interesting or inspiring, please share it with friends or familywho might be also curious about São Paulo and the depth of the incredible aspects of life
(32:45):
in Brazil.
Don't forget to rate and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.
It really helps others discover the show.
I'm so excited to continue this journey with you as we uncover more of what makes SaoPaulo and the country of Brazil so magical.
Until next time, take care and keep exploring.
Hi, and welcome to today's edition of Why São Paulo?
The podcast where we explore Brazil's magic through its people and its places.
I'm Emily Witt, an American legal recruiter with a deep appreciation for Brazil and itsculture.
Today, I'm joined by Monica Hamos Machado, a fellow legal recruiter who's moving back toSão Paulo after nine years abroad.
(00:33):
When we recorded this, Monica was in middle of packing up her life in the United States,and I was living out of a suitcase in a hotel waiting to move into my apartment.
We were both in transition, navigating big changes, reflecting on where we've been, andlooking ahead to new beginnings in Brazil.
Sao Paulo is a sophisticated, fast-paced metropolis, and it reminds me a lot of New YorkCity.
(01:00):
But doing business here, like
anywhere else comes with its own nuances.
Relationships are everything.
Trust is at the core of business dealings and cultural differences shape the way peoplework, whether it's Brazil, the US or Europe.
Monica and I are diving into what makes Sao Paulo one of the best cities in the world,from career opportunities to cultural insights and the nuances of a work-life balance.
(01:27):
So whether you're an expat, a business professional, or just curious about Brazil, staytuned for this next edition of Y Cell Policy.
Let's begin with the question I ask everyone and that is, do you have a special place orarea in Sao Paulo that is near and dear to your heart that you want to share?
(01:50):
let me think clear because honestly there are so many places that I love in São Paulo.
First, it's my hometown.
Second, it's too big.
So there are so many amazing places.
So I'm gonna start with Tafil.
but probably I'm gonna forget about so many others.
(02:11):
So, I was born and raised in Vila Madalena, Pinheiros, Alto de Pinheiros, that region.
So, it's super meaningful to me.
And I love like Praça das Corujas, Praça Pôr do Sol.
They are so, so beautiful.
They are really nice parks and
(02:32):
I really love them and I have great memories and once I'm in São Paulo I always love towalk around and just be there and I mean being there and walking around is enough.
So Vila Madalena has so many amazing places and mean different spots.
I would say the street art scenes, there are so many street art streets.
(02:55):
like Beco do Batman that it's super famous nowadays but I've known for so long even whenit was not that famous I'm super into arts all kind of arts so for me like Masp Museum,
MAM Museum like in the Parque
Ibirapuera that's so gorgeous as well.
(03:17):
I mean there are so many beautiful places.
Mercadão of São Paulo, that's Mercado Municipal.
It's super nice because you feel that you are in São Paulo, but also you feel that you arein other place of Brazil.
You can find so many different food and people and I mean different cultures of Brazil inSão Paulo.
(03:41):
Yeah, no, I know exactly what you mean.
the energy is just really, really incredible here.
That being said, energy pulling forces, you found yourself all over the world, London,Miami, the Boca Raton area, New York, right?
Like, what is pulling you back?
(04:02):
I think we have some of the answer that you talked about is home, but you know,
Can you explain this feeling of timing and going back to the city?
Sure, Well, after living in so many different places, as you said, I realized that
Being close to my family and my roots, it's priceless.
(04:25):
It's the most important thing on earth.
And I was very lucky to be able to live abroad in a time that my daughter was, I mean, achild.
She was born in United States.
She's American.
So I could raise her
not only abroad, it's super challenging, but for her it was good.
(04:47):
It was amazing.
But also in a time that my parents, my family were able to visit me a lot.
What it means, like things are changing now.
My parents are getting older.
My daughter is, already has
her attachment and her roots.
But from now on it's going to be so hard for her to moving around.
(05:11):
That's why I'm coming back to Brazil.
Her parents are Brazilian.
She has like extended family and a big family in Brazil.
So I think
I always wanted to be back to Brazil, but now it's the right time for me and my daughter,personally and professionally.
(05:33):
Yeah, no, that's great.
speaking of professionally, you and I share the same role.
We're both legal recruiters and wanted to just ask you how you fell into it and, you know,a little bit about your story.
mean, I think since I was born, I always had this great connection to myself.
(05:54):
I think people are different and there are people that can't live, can't do crazy stuffthat I do, moving around and living by myself.
I'm coming back to my hometown, to my country, to my family, to my culture, that it's mycomfort zone.
But at the same time, I'm not the same person anymore.
(06:17):
I'm a different person now.
So talking about legal recruitment, it's the same thing.
I've lived abroad.
I've learned so much from the Europeans, from the Americans, from, I mean, the experts,especially in New York.
But moving back to Brazil, work-wise, I'm different as well.
(06:39):
Yeah, I-
São Paulo is a super sophisticated city.
It's like a super developed country for Latin America.
mean, it's the place to be in Latin America, right?
But it's still like they have different backgrounds.
think the legal recruitment market is developing a lot there, but it's still embryonic ifwe compare to United States and the UK.
(07:05):
for example, the place that I had experience.
Yeah, and what are some of the similarities and differences of work culture in the regionsthat you've worked?
Okay, there are so many differences, okay?
Let's start with the United States, okay?
Because you're gonna tell me if you agree or not, okay?
(07:27):
Because you're American and you are an expert in United States.
I think people are much more direct objective and time is money and what else?
People...
I mean, people are always in a rush because they respect each other times and they arefocused on delivery.
(07:49):
They are focused on being practical, hands-on, and I think it's a really productivecountry.
Working in the United States taught me a lot to be more focused,
to be more direct, be more productive, to be on time.
(08:13):
So I don't know if you agree.
Yeah, well, I'm nodding my head because I agree with you 100%.
But where I do want to go with this and it's something I appreciate about being here is,we have all of these things, punctuality, results, time is money, go, go, go, go, go.
(08:35):
But it's very sales.
efficient!
I'm sorry for interrupting you, but you guys are really efficient!
However, someone who has worked in the legal industry and in professional environments inthe United States for far too long, there is a cost element of that.
And I think you and I can both agree.
(08:56):
mean, with that wonderful aspect of time is money and all of these other things aboutefficiency,
there is something that is lost sometimes, which is like just a moment to sort of take itall in and not be in a rush and maybe shut down after a certain hour.
(09:18):
I mean, it's, feel all the time I have to answer to someone tomorrow, not tomorrow, butnow, right?
And it's like everything under, right?
And that can really, that is the cost.
that I think that builds and we have had previous conversations about this, like thatsometimes can involve like taking lunch at your desk, like getting food on your computer,
(09:40):
cause you're like trying to do five different things at once.
I've, you know, I've had many times where like my drink, my drink is spilled on mykeyboard or, you know, and now I'm in the shop because I'm doing too much.
And I think the mental health element, I mean, I think that's just the world has picked upin general.
in terms of how quickly our response times are because we are so accessible.
(10:03):
But one of the things that I find particularly challenging about American work culture isthis, you know, must be on all the time.
it's, you know, I think the other thing too is you get a badge of honor if you've workedthrough lunch or if you've worked all weekend or, you know, it's almost like,
gave up time on my holiday to do work or I'm only going for a week.
(10:28):
I think there's a lot of, misery is comfort, in, the work culture environment.
And, that pulls away from just taking a step back and like, maybe, you know, in enjoying amoment, I'll use an example.
I arrived here on New Year's day, in South hollow.
And for me, like,
(10:49):
the whole city outside of the pharmacies and a very small amount of people in the movietheater, which I happened to go to, it was so wonderful to just take this day, I'd have it
be totally quiet and see others doing that as well.
And so I think like culturally, you arrive New Year's Day in New York City, restaurantsare open, bars are open, the gyms.
(11:14):
or, you know, New Year's special, you've got people working out at 7 a.m., New Year'smorning, we're all ready to go.
And, you know, I think that can come at a cost because you really never fully release,right?
I couldn't agree more.
I mean, talking about that, I can see clearly the difference between Europe, Latin Americaand the United States.
(11:36):
So I can talk about UK, that I had this amazing experience and
Europe in general because I'm an European citizen and I know Europe very well.
And Brazil slash Latin America because for obvious reasons I'm Brazilian and I've beenworking with Latin America.
So I think the key factor in Latin America is relationship.
(12:00):
You have to build it up solid relationships.
I'm not saying that we mix work
and pleasure, work and relationships, work and family.
But in the end of the day, it counts a lot.
It's super important to build up amazing relationships, great relationships.
(12:20):
You cannot do business without getting to know that person.
And in United States you can.
like and sometimes they even prefer I don't want to know your name I don't want to knowyour background I just want to do business with you and I don't care about you or your
life so as everything life has the good part and bad part or pros and cons or as you saidI mean there is the the terrible side
(12:47):
And the Europeans, on the other hand, they really are focused on the well balance ofworking and personal life.
So, I mean, they...
Hold on, can you explain what that is?
sorry you see that I even got confused and I was like
what is the way that there's people out there that actually are proactive about balancingwork and I need a whole primer on what that means.
(13:16):
I'm not familiar with this expression.
Interesting, over the Latin Americans, in terms of...
sure.
For sure.
And don't forget, we're talking about São Paulo, one of the biggest cities in the world,the most important city in Latin America that is super different than other cities in
(13:47):
Brazil.
Like we make jokes that Cariocas, people in Rio de Janeiro, they don't work.
Like the New Yorkers do this kind of jokes with the Floridians, you know?
right.
Yeah, actually, you know what?
Now that we're having this conversation, one of the reasons why I choose to work here inSao Paulo, because people are like, you know, sort of going with the theme of this podcast
(14:10):
name, Why Sao Paulo?
It reminds me, the hustle culture is very evident here and more so than it is in Europe.
So you're saying all this, at first I was teasing,
and being like, wait, but no, that is essentially, think, one of the reasons why I slidein and feel so at home here, because I'm like, there are super rushed people with
(14:32):
backpacks all over the city.
they've got the backpacks in the front and they're all wearing backpacks and they're in arush and they come out of the train.
And there's something for me, I think what has always drawn me to the city is
this element of, wait, I like this energy.
It feels like I'm home.
(14:53):
yes, yeah.
I actually like, one of the most invigorating things for me here is, you know, when I'm ona weekday, it's a very similar feeling to New York City because sort of in lieu of coffee
carts, which we have in the city, you know, people are like running, going to coffeecarts, going to Starbucks.
(15:14):
grabbing their morning coffee here.
If you happen to be near a metro stop or a bus station earlier in the morning during rushhour, it's kind of cool because from New York you're like, there's people out there making
fresh OJ.
But there's this community of that is very evident and very in a rush at the very earlyhours of the morning.
(15:39):
And I love seeing
the people on the street like with their cakes and you know the equivalents of our likebagels and cream cheese and a cup of coffee in New York City and I you know there's
there's like orange juice and and cakes and so I love that energy so so now that you arementioning this I'm not surprised because I think for me it's it's what draws me to this
(16:05):
region as a New Yorker yeah.
I'm so happy for you.
I'm sure that you're gonna thrive.
And I'm being very honest.
I'm being very honest because you know, it's not for everyone.
We talked about this the other day.
It's not easy to move around, to move abroad.
(16:25):
There are a lot of things that you put on the table.
emotionally speaking, psychologically speaking, financially speaking, there are so manythings that are involved and it's really hard.
But the leverage, the assets, it's really worth it.
In the end of the day, it's amazing.
(16:47):
But it's not...
It's true.
to thrive in a city as New York, as Sao Paulo.
It's hard, especially with the cultural barriers, the language barriers.
It's not easy.
at end of the day, I always remember, if you can make here, you can make anywhere.
(17:08):
It's for New York.
think you can use this sentence for every single big city that you go.
You have to think, if you can make here, I can make anywhere.
If I make here.
it's so true because you're taking yourself up and putting yourself in a situation that'snot familiar.
(17:31):
with a lot of that comes, and that could be language barriers, culture barriers, people dointeract differently, whether it be in business or even just going out to a restaurant.
Do you leave a tip?
Do you not leave a tip?
Which countries do you leave tips in?
you know, do you tip the Uber drivers or things that are like natural in one country.
(17:54):
And then also, you you and I have both talked about this, like there are certain elementsof bureaucracy, whether you're moving back to your home country or going to a new country
that papers you have to fill out, things are not as easy, you know, as.
I mentioned like I'm really drained, I'm really exhausted because I'm moving back to SaoPaulo in two weeks time and I'm still dealing with the bureaucracy and I'm moving back to
(18:21):
my hometown, my country and still like I haven't been sleeping, doing so many things.
Can you imagine?
For a foreigner.
Like moving abroad is such a big deal.
But again, it's worth it.
It's the best thing you can do in your life.
And you become a much more fulfilled person and stronger.
(18:44):
And you understand yourself and the world better.
Yeah, I mean, even you and I have talked about this coming back to a city as someone whois new and that there's something extremely refreshing and invigorating.
We had talked about how you're going to build professional networks here because
(19:09):
things will change.
We talked about how we love to be in person with people, right?
So you're going to come back here as a new person.
I mean, you're still the same person, but you've grown and now you're...
Yeah.
joke like when I moved to New York, I'm like, oh, okay, I've arranged so many meetings andcoffees and this and that.
(19:32):
And my boss was like, for what?
You can sort it out this by phone.
And I'm like, but I'm not gonna get the most of it.
And then now it's the another way around.
I have so many meetings, so many meetings of how I'm like, oh my God, do I have to seethis person in person?
Is it?
(19:54):
Should I?
Because look at the traffic jam and this and that.
And I have, I know, a lot of work.
So it's funny.
As I said, like for Americans, you have to be direct.
You have to be, I mean the directness is so important.
You have to be efficient.
(20:15):
You have to deliver.
If you are in New York, much more.
Because why am I highlighting this?
we can compare Brazil and the United States regarding states.
mean, the states are so different.
We are talking about completely different countries, but they are so big.
They have a huge population.
(20:35):
And even in the same country, people are so different because each state is so different.
So I've learned, I mean, how to work as an American and how to work
as an European and how to work as a Brazilian.
But still, working in New York, was priceless because it's so different.
(20:57):
It's so rough.
Yeah.
And I mean, I think there's something to be said for that.
mean, I've in terms of professionally post college, my experience is limited to New York.
mean, even in Sao Paulo, I'm working, but my work is still coming out of the United Statesand New York.
And so I would also say that, you've worked in two different cities in the US.
(21:22):
So I think
New York is kind of in its own little category.
Yeah, yeah.
And so there are other regions of the US that might be different.
And actually, you're bringing up a really good point for me right now where I'm justconnecting the dots on the call.
(21:46):
I feel like one of the similarities that
I'm becoming more and more aware of, and especially now that we are talking about this, isthis concept of like the US and Brazil are giant countries with states making up the
framework of these countries, whereas the distance in Europe to go from, let's say, I'lluse Portugal to Italy, right?
(22:12):
Or you're going from two very different countries.
I think, right.
Yeah, I'm saying this because I still work with Europe and I have so many friends andcontact.
And honestly, for me, it's like other planet, like Sao Paulo and New York, they are soattached for obvious reasons.
(22:34):
First, they are so similar.
They hustle, they are big cities, they are the financial centers, but they have almost thesame time zone that are so many
people from Sao Paulo and New York and people from New York are always traveling to SaoPaulo and I mean I'm super attached to London but still every year I'm not that attached
(22:59):
anymore because it's like oh my god they are working with Asia and Middle East andAustralia and I'm like I can't follow this time zone and this difference and you know
Yeah, it's true.
It's true.
And so the states in Brazil, they have such a huge area within the country, but statesalso have, even though the sort of the cultural language is somewhat similar, the
(23:31):
differences between someone in New York versus someone in the other areas of the countryversus
Right, it's similar to Brazil.
You have such a dynamic makeup of one country specifically, which I think is common.
I just, feel, I can't explain it.
(23:52):
When I'm in Sao Paulo or in Brazil, I really feel aligned emotionally with home.
It could be that.
The time zone thing, the energy here, it feels very similar in areas that are veryuniquely different, but also a huge similar aspect as well.
(24:15):
couldn't agree more.
The restaurants, I mean, London, you can find amazing restaurants, of course, from aroundthe globe.
mean, you can find food from literally
every single country, but it's different in New York.
Sometimes I was like, it's kind of like I'm in Sao Paulo, you know, or you are in SaoPaulo and you feel like, I can find really nice restaurants here from around the world and
(24:40):
amazing food.
but, you know, I think talking about the difference and similarities from, I mean, SaoPaulo and New York, I think we are
so different but at the same time so similar which is awkward to say why I'm saying thatlike we have so many things because we live in really tough cities with a lot of chaos
(25:08):
24x7 and the struggle I mean you eat what you kill definitely
word for...
perfect but at the same time you have everything and but it's still like when i arrived innew york i couldn't i don't know if you're gonna understand maybe yes maybe not perhaps
(25:32):
you can understand a little bit what i'm talking about people in san paulo are
more rough than people in Brazil but still it's far away from New York because in SaoPaulo we say good morning, good afternoon, good night, how are you?
Let's have a coffee.
In New York you can't say yeah you can't say even hi to your neighbor.
(25:57):
I remember one of my best friends
true.
was in my apartment in Manhattan for one month, I was traveling abroad.
And then she was like, what's the problem with your neighbors?
I say hi, good morning.
They look at me and they come back to their phones.
I said, it's not personal, don't get too personal.
(26:18):
It's New York.
I know that it's not nice, but just like let it go, you know, because they're different.
You know, it's interesting too, even, you know, as a New Yorker here, I realize like, I'mnot used to people doing that and also the return expectation.
you know, sometimes if I'm listening to our podcasts or like, I don't want to be rude,right?
(26:45):
But sometimes, and so I sometimes have to be like,
Right, this, you you have to, the importance of this is really strong.
And even though you come from a place where people don't do it, like, I sometimes will,like, it'll register and I'm like, wait, no, like, make sure you're saying hello, don't
(27:07):
forget, you know, someone just walked by, you know, make sure you greet them.
And I think it takes a little bit of getting used to on both ends.
just because of, you I think there's something beautiful about saying hi and, you know,more often than not, I also get a hug from a lot of people as well, which is, know, and
even more so from a kiss.
And it's nice.
It's, you know, it's a very warm feeling, but also still something that I had to acclimatemyself to in terms of reciprocity.
(27:35):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, but at the same time we have to respect different cultures.
It doesn't mean that mine is completely right and yours is completely different.
It's what I told my friend.
said, look, you are on holidays.
Those people, they eat work, they kill, they are busy.
Leave them alone, you know?
(27:56):
I wouldn't do that.
I would say good morning.
I would say good afternoon.
I would...
talk to you, but can't judge them because people have different backgrounds, differentcultures and you are in their seat in their country.
Yeah, but of course there are international diplomacy.
(28:17):
That's why they call New Yorkers tough.
Yeah
Totally.
Well, one last question for you.
If you're a worker coming from another country and you are working for a Braziliancompany, here in Brazil or abroad and working for a Brazilian owned company, especially
(28:43):
this element of greeting everyone, hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
Is there anything else that you know off the top of your head culturally that you canrecommend to someone starting off at a Brazilian company that would be helpful?
Yes, it's gonna be a tip for myself as well.
(29:04):
As I told you that I feel like I probably drive so many people crazy.
Like when I moved to DC I was one person, when I moved to London another person, when Imoved to New York another person, when I moved to Florida another person, then I'm gonna
move back to Brazil and probably people look at me and say, my god she's so rough.
(29:25):
She doesn't talk, she's so this and that and then I'm gonna have to remind Monica, you areBrazilian, you are in Brazil.
The dynamics different and you have to build relationships and trust.
Like I was always like this, it's like an asset and leverage.
My personality is like this.
(29:45):
But I had to remotely living abroad like, Monica, don't talk too much, listen more thanspeak.
Monica, be like constant, down to earth, quick.
A lot of pressure.
So coming back to Brazil, I'm sure, and I already have people that look at me and say, youare not the same person anymore.
(30:10):
Of course.
So talking about this,
We have to remind ourselves that in Brazil, relationship is the key factor.
It's super important.
I'm not saying the most important thing.
There are so many.
It's multifactorial.
But I think people are really sociable and into relationship and trust.
(30:33):
Yeah, no, well.
And you can get the best things from our Brazilian personality because you can build it upso many beautiful relationships, you can have amazing friendships, and you can use it even
for working.
I'm not saying that you're gonna mix work and personal life, but you end up
(30:55):
doing business with your friends, with your acquaintance, and the other way around aswell, becoming friends.
I made a lot of friends from my career, especially in Brazil.
Yeah.
great.
I'm excited to have you come back in a few weeks, and this was wonderful.
I'm so glad we got the chance to do this today's SESTA.
(31:19):
And, you know, thank you again.
No, I'm super thankful.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for this opportunity.
I feel like I could have...
said so many more important things but I hope this little I mean I don't know if it wasnice but I think it helps
(31:41):
Yeah, was wonderful.
Well, thank you.
Thank you again and next time in Portuguese, okay?
Of course, and I'm eager to be part of São Paulo again.
I'm so happy that I'm gonna come back to my country, to my beautiful city and I have tohighlight.
(32:02):
Yeah, I have to highlight São Paulo is amazing.
People from São Paulo can't take for granted.
São Paulo is like outstanding, one of the best cities in the world.
I'm glad to hear that.
couldn't agree more and I look forward to seeing you here.
Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Why São Paulo?
(32:25):
Exploring Brazil's magic through its people and places.
I hope you enjoyed the stories about this incredible city learning unique insights fromthe discussion.
If you found this episode interesting or inspiring, please share it with friends or familywho might be also curious about São Paulo and the depth of the incredible aspects of life
(32:45):
in Brazil.
Don't forget to rate and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.
It really helps others discover the show.
I'm so excited to continue this journey with you as we uncover more of what makes SaoPaulo and the country of Brazil so magical.
Until next time, take care and keep exploring.
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