January 10, 2025 • 31 mins
Summary
In this debut episode of Why São Paulo, Marcela Levy shares her personal experiences and insights about living in São Paulo, Brazil. She discusses her favorite local spots, the cultural identity tied to different regions in Brazil, and the importance of family and community. Marcela also reflects on the vibrant literary scene in São Paulo, the arts and culture that thrive in the city and offers advice for newcomers. Additionally, she highlights her work as a children's book author, emphasizing the significance of storytelling in her life.
Takeaways
- Marcela shares her favorite local spot, Praça de Milão, which holds special memories with her family.
- Cultural identity in Brazil is deeply tied to regional differences, with unique accents and lifestyles.
- Family proximity is a significant factor in choosing to live in São Paulo.
he strong support system for parents in Brazil, from family involvement to accessible childcare, is a major advantage. - São Paulo has a lively literary scene with numerous bookstores and cultural events.
- The city offers a rich array of artistic experiences, from museums to street art.
- Newcomers to São Paulo should take their time to adjust to the city's vastness and complexity.
- The welcoming nature of São Paulo contrasts with other cities, making it easier for foreigners to integrate.
- Marcela's children's books address themes of family and modern parenting.
- The importance of community and shared experiences is a recurring theme in Marcela's life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:57):
Morning, Marcella.
It's so wonderful to have you here.
My first guest.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you so much for having me, very excited.
I'm going to ask you a question about Sao Paulo in specific.
Do you have a specific spot or place that you go to that you'd love to talk to theaudience about?
(02:21):
So there's actually a place it's called Praça de Milão.
It's like a playground, a square.
There's a fountain.
It's called from Milão, which means Milan from Italy because it was Milan that gave thisfountain to Sao Paulo as a city.
it's right next to my house.
It's a place that I went a lot with my kids when they were really young as babies.
We would like set a little blanket on the lawn and like just play around and have like apicnic.
(02:45):
And it's a place where on Saturdays there is a food fair.
a theater that we call, which is great.
And every, think, once a month on the weekends, there's also a fair.
They have things you can buy, but also food.
And so it's a place that unites lots of families and has a special place in my heart.
That's why I like it so much.
Well, thank you for sharing that special place with us.
(03:09):
And I want to talk about something that is a concept that probably is unique to Brazil.
I was last night trying to think of what we might have equivalent here in the US and thereare variations of it, but I want to ask you about the concept of identifying yourself by
(03:32):
region.
So for example, you, to my understanding, and we can walk, you can walk me through this,you are a karaoke, correct?
Okay, so can we start from scratch and explain what a karaoke is versus a Paulista versusa Paulistana versus some of the other regions in Brazil?
(03:56):
You are also a New Yorker.
Mm-hmm.
so you have a lot of different places where you have made yourself at home.
And given that this podcast is about finding home, I'd love to just ask you about whateach thing means and how long it takes to become considered, you know, like to identify
(04:18):
with that particular region.
Perfect.
Yeah.
So in Brazil, we do have, there's even like some, I would say like competition.
So I'm saying, the Cariocas are better than the Paulistas.
If I'm from Bahia in the North, I feel very like it's a big cultural identity.
So there is, it's very specific.
think one of the reasons as well is because the accents are so different.
(04:39):
even though I'm living in Sao Paulo for 10 years, my accent is still very much a Cariocas.
So I'll say a sentence and everyone will identify immediately that I'm not from here, thatI'm from Rio.
There is a difference within Sao Paulo as well being from the city and being from theoutskirts.
There is a huge accent difference as well.
it's funny.
So I still say that I am a karaoke.
That's what I'm always going to be.
(04:59):
That's where I was born and lived until I was 30 or 20, 27.
So of course it's where I'm from, where my parents are, where I go every holiday for theJewish holidays, for Christmas, et cetera.
So it's where I always identify.
I think that I have
very big part of me that's all about what Rio is about, which is being more laid back,wanting to be outdoors and at the beach and nature, even dressing up.
(05:25):
You see don't have my hair, I didn't do like a blow out.
Everyone in Sao Paulo has a blow out all the time.
immediately bonded when we first met one another 12 years ago now.
Running from place to place.
hear you.
Exactly.
(05:45):
So that's very much like a Rio thing.
But at the same time, I completely identified when I moved to Sao Paulo, I think if I hadmoved because I did Rio, New York and then Sao Paulo.
think if I had moved from Rio to Sao Paulo, I would have had
a bigger impact because the lifestyle has a big difference, especially because you don'thave the beach and lots of what you're doing in the weekend in Rio is around the beach.
(06:09):
But because I moved from New York to Sao Paulo, then I think I easily adapted because theSao Paulo life is very similar to the New York life and in the sense that you have many
restaurants and cultural activities and it's a big, big city with parks, et cetera.
So then I think I identified because I made this move from New York to Sao Paulo.
I think a big difference for me is when I moved here, I moved to work at the same firmthat I've always worked with, which I began working in Rio.
(06:36):
So there was kind of like a family here for me, right?
Which was my work, some people that I knew from many years.
another difference I think is when I have twins and they were, as you know, and they wereborn here in Sao Paulo.
And I think when you have kids that are born in the city, it immediately becomes your cityas well, because it's the city where your kids were born and there's the school and.
the community around the school, et cetera.
(06:58):
there is a huge difference and I think I will have a little bit in my heart of each ofthese places where I live and where I'm from, cetera, but they're very different, one
among each other.
you're always a New Yorker to me as well.
Exactly.
And it's great when you make a move and you go back to the city where you once lived andyou feel at home, right?
(07:18):
So it's a very special feeling.
yeah, yeah.
And can you alight me a little bit also with the difference?
Like what is the difference between a Paulista and let's say a Paulistano?
You know, just specify that.
the thing about being from the city and being from the state.
So the state is huge.
And if you're someone that came, like for example, here in Sao Paulo it's very common tosay, where are you from?
(07:40):
And the person will say, he's from Sao Paulo, but not from the city.
So he was born in the countryside and he came, for example, I'm going to do college in thecity.
And that's when I moved to the city.
So a big part of the community that you meet and work and friends, et cetera.
are people that were not born in the city, born in the outskirts, but then came to live inthe city for work or for studying.
(08:01):
Can you identify as both?
It sounds like yes to a certain extent.
Yeah.
firm that were born, they will always have the accent from being from the outskirts, fromthe countryside, but when they move to the city, it becomes part of their life.
So yes, I do believe.
Yes.
this fluidness of where you're from and also acceptance of your new home, right?
(08:26):
because for example, my family in Rio say that I'm very Paulista because of things that Isay or things that I do or what I like.
And of course people here always say that I'm kind of a carioca.
So it depends on who you're talking to.
They will think you're more one or the other.
Right.
And even how you said, Paulish, it sounded to me, heard, now I'm getting a little moredialed in.
(08:49):
I heard a little bit of the karaoke accent.
So it was, you know, it just goes to show you can be a mix of everything and everywhere aslong as where you make yourself at home.
And that's the next question I wanted to ask you because
I remember this like it was yesterday and it was quite some time ago.
But when you and I met in New York City at the law firm where we used to work at andeveryone loved you and we all wanted you to stay and we had all the paperwork ready for
(09:20):
you.
But you were very clear and very adamant from the get-go that this was a wonderful placeand you wanted to stay as long as you could.
but your heart was always calling you back to Brazil.
And a lot of that, and this is before you had children, but I remember in thisconversation, a lot of that revolved around your desire to have a family and where you saw
(09:48):
yourself building this family.
And if we can go back in time then and now, in terms of what was that feeling that youknew that would
make Brazil and ultimately it ended up that you went to Sao Paulo because of work, youknow, what were some of those things that had you have a hard no to staying in the States
(10:11):
and moving back?
I think the big part of it was this about wanting to have a family and wanting my futurekids to be close to my parents.
And me being close to my parents as well.
As you are with yours, I'm very close to my parents.
I don't live in the same city as they do, but knowing that I can be on a plane and in 45minutes I'll land in the city that they're at gives me a very good feeling and knowing
(10:35):
that I'm close to them.
Whenever I have to travel for work or something, they easily come here and stay with mykids.
And I see how special this like living with your grandparents and experiencing life withyour grandparents is for my kids.
I think that was the big part of it.
There was also an aspect to the fact that both me and my husband, we are lawyers as youknow, and we were traveling very, very, we were working very, very long hours as the New
(10:59):
York rhythm of law firms is that's the normal pace, right?
And I would think like, can this work?
How can we both be these people that work a lot and have absolutely no one to like supportas grandparents, people that we can like drop off the kid if we need to.
And there's also a huge difference in Brazil.
There's also very big support that you can rely on, right?
(11:20):
So having a nanny, a full-time nanny, something that's completely normal.
I think if you compare it to New York.
rates that would be completely different.
And of course, we're talking about dollars as opposed to reais.
So everything's much cheaper, right?
Where we're at.
therefore I can afford to work an entire day and come back at 8.30 PM at night and mynanny will be here and then she will go home, which is something that I don't know how
(11:43):
viable would be living in New York, right?
And like I have an aunt that gives us in Sao Paulo.
So when the kids are sick and I'm in a meeting, my aunt will take the kids to the doctor.
So things that I thought.
How would that work out if it's just me, my husband and the kids in the future in NewYork?
So that was, yeah, a big part of it.
And I also thought that the New York rhythm was amazing, that then maybe I would get tiredof it in a while, that being in my 30s, I was easily sleeping very little, going out at
(12:10):
night and working a lot, I'm fine.
But now that I'm I'm...
28 days away from turning 40.
And I can already feel that it's much different, much different than the rhythm that youwere, you know, I won't work hard, I'm happy being at home and I don't need to go out that
much, things like that.
So that also I played a part of it.
And when I met my husband in New York, he was living there for, so when we met, he wasliving for three years and then we lived six years in total.
(12:35):
And he said, look, if we're gonna make this move, needs to be now.
Because if we go back older, we might not.
fit into the Brazilian market in terms of work, right?
So it was like a sweet spot that we needed to find or look, I think we've had all that wecould get from New York, but we're not coming back too late in our careers and then it
will be hard to fit back in a lot in a Brazilian office.
(12:57):
And aspects of Brazil that you really appreciate as a parent.
Yeah.
I think it's, I have a bit mixed feelings about this because I think if you compare likewith Europe, where parents do not have nannies, like everyone is, it's accepted that you
need to leave at, I don't know, 3 p.m.
(13:18):
to pick up your kid at school.
And this is not accepted in Brazil if you're a working parent because they know you have ananny, right?
So that's something that I do not like from Brazil, which I believe is...
It's expected for you to, know, the nanny to have a very important role in the lives ofthe kids and to working parents, therefore do not need to be at home because you have the
help.
So that's what I don't like.
(13:39):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel this is when I talk to friends that live in Europe and compare to my lifestyle,right?
I find that hard, but of course I make a point of being present in my kids' to do thisthing that I can.
It's a constant effort for me.
But in terms of the good side for me is that
It's the thing about the grandparents, I think, is the biggest weight of it.
(13:59):
Like, it's being close to the parents.
I have three nieces and nephews and they live and they have a very good relationship aswell, even though they live in Rio.
So it's the being close to family for me is like the best part of being here.
That's amazing.
And let's also talk about the fact that you're a children's book author and you're anattorney and you're running around all over the city.
(14:22):
So Palo, I think, is a very energetic and vibrant city.
And can you go into that a little bit more in terms of the literary scene, how thatenergy, how that
There's a very strong devotion to bookstores and books that I find when I'm in Sao Paulo.
(14:43):
And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that as a lawyer, as an author.
I think there's a lot of excitement generated around book culture, particularly in SaoPaulo where I've experienced book culture.
Can you explain that a little bit more for someone who's looking for that liveliness?
to fuel their own creativity, whatever that's in.
(15:05):
For example, for my work, I find it very helpful to have that intellectual stimulation andcreativity as a pervasive aspect of the city itself.
Definitely.
It definitely is.
And it's something that makes me really happy to see because of course we've passed, Idon't know, 20 years, been living in a crisis, right?
(15:27):
Where the bookstores cannot compete with Amazon prices.
And it's an issue.
But I do think that culturally everyone in Sao Paulo is aware of the fact that bookstoresbring us lots of good things and that we need to make an effort to keep them alive.
So I see bookstores opening all the time.
bookstores because of what I just mentioned, Cannot Live just off selling off books.
(15:50):
So they do lots of events to attract people.
I constantly go and do readings for children in bookstores and I've gone to places, let'sread a book.
And then the children will do like a piece of work of art based on the book.
And there's also for adults as well, lots of readings and book clubs.
yeah, so I'm very impressed of how lively this book scene is.
(16:12):
especially in the children's sector.
So for example, in New York, I know of one children's bookstore.
In Sao Paulo, like schools of the children's book in Sao Paulo, I think there were likesix or something.
So it's like impressive in a city to have so many.
and as I mentioned, they have to constantly be doing, events to attract people.
So just this Saturday, I went to an event in a bookstore and the, was a book that had the,the illustrator of the children's book had used.
(16:40):
dirt to make the illustration.
So was very beautiful, very artistic.
And basically the activity they proposed that all the kids would draw their feet and handswith chalk on the sidewalk.
And then we would paint with the same paint that she used to paint the book with, whichwas a mix of dirt and water, the feet and the hands on the sidewalk.
And it was so like, look, this is such an amazing activity because we're using our bodiesand we're using, but you were living in the outside, right?
(17:06):
Which is something that we lost a lot, right?
because of security, of lots of things.
would like when my parents were young, they would like play soccer on the streets.
And now we all live inside big buildings and we don't live on the street that much.
So every time that I have something that involves the kids being on the street, it'ssomething that I really appreciate.
So that was just an example of something that we did, which was in a bookstore and made,was a wonderful thing that I did on a Saturday with my kids.
(17:31):
So it's something that always plan at least one day per week.
to be in a bookstore, I think you find out new things.
I love going up to the person working at the bookstore and saying, look, tell me what areyour favorite books?
And then you can, you you get to know the person.
And everyone, if you ask that to someone, they will always have something to share withyou that you learn.
(17:52):
So yeah, I'm very happy about it.
And I can mention some bookstores.
So there's a bookstore.
yeah, so in San Trudon downtown, which is big, like there's an art scene, there'sbookstores, and there's this place called Mega Fauna.
which is beautiful and amazing in this historic building called Copão.
in the same building you have like a very nice bar, have some bars around, you have DonaOnça, which is a famous restaurant, typical Brazilian food, etc.
(18:18):
And it's something that you can go and you see the books and there's many events withauthors talking, they have a drink and they have some food, something that I really like.
And in children's books there's a recent bookstore that opened recently called CasaCojmux.
And they, I think, nailed it on the aspect that a bookstore shouldn't be just a bookstore,but should have lots of things.
So it's a big house in Vila Madalena, which is a very cool scene, school, coolneighborhood, as you know.
(18:42):
And they have like a bar downstairs, a place where they sell stuff, a place where theysell books, a nice area for families to read together.
And when they opened it for the first time, on the opening, they hired a band, and thenthe band played music.
So like you see all of these different things within the same.
environment context.
it's very exciting.
(19:03):
I remember I was walking down the street in Sao Paulo and was really nice because one ofthe special things about being in warmer weather is you can congregate outside.
So a passerby on the street such as myself, I'm walking by and I'm seeing these peopleoutside with champagne glasses, speaking, looking very lively.
(19:28):
And I'm thinking, what's going on in this store?
I love the feeling of the fact that you can be inside and outside of these stores and feelvery free and then also congregate with fellow book lovers, maybe talk about the books
that are in the store, that specific author who was there that day.
(19:50):
And I thought that was a very special aspect.
of the bookstore culture in that city because of the, one of the reasons being, well, ofcourse for me, I see a champagne glass outside a bookstore and I'm gonna walk in, but the
ability to see that visibly and then stop in for a few minutes, whereas in other cities,you have to maybe have read,
(20:17):
a to-do magazine or something to know that this is going on, you wouldn't be able to seeit otherwise.
And it kind of takes it sort of like, in my opinion, Brazilian culture, you know, itinvites you in with a very big hug.
And I think that that has been my experience of just the culture in general and how itrelates to the literary scene.
(20:40):
It's like, come in, enjoy, read a book.
talk to some people, it's a Saturday afternoon and it's a nice day out.
yeah.
Yeah.
(21:01):
Yeah.
It has, lends itself to some shorter days and can be snowy and wet and cold
And I can imagine where that would be an additional draw.
in last week, I was in London for work and at 3.30, 4 PM it was already dark and Icouldn't see how people, you know, get more like you don't do that much.
(21:23):
You want to sleep earlier.
You want to be inside and you're a little bit sadder.
I'm for me, like weather and my humor is completely related.
That's a big link.
And the thing about you, when you said that being on the street is a bit to what I hadjust said as well.
when the, thing on the sidewalk.
which is a very karaoke thing as well.
So very commonly in bars, you have the bar, but people are like standing outside.
(21:45):
There's a neighborhood in Rio called Urca, which is where my mother-in-law lives and whereI was born as a baby.
lived there as well.
So it's a beautiful, beautiful scene.
You're next to the ocean and you see the sugarloaf and there's many bars and people arejust sitting down on this little, we call mureta, which is like a little stone thing right
next to the water.
So we would just buy her a beer, sit down.
(22:07):
And then they clap when the sun comes down.
it's like being outside for me, it's amazing.
Yeah.
And also, in light of the clapping when the sun goes down, I think it's so much what Ienjoy about being Brazil and you just nailed it with the clapping when the sun goes down,
right?
It's like you're taking this little moment of appreciation by clapping and acknowledgingthe beauty of this.
(22:34):
And that's a collective thing.
And I think that's
we all find that and try to do that ourselves, but another cultural element of thiscommunal enjoyment of gratitude really something special and just throughout my
experiences that I've had in the country.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
(22:55):
There's a thing that you just said that reminds me of something.
when there's a kid that's lost in the beach, what we do as people from Rio de Janeiro,from Cariocas, is we start clapping where the kid is at.
So the kid's near me, I'm clapping.
So if the mom is looking for the kid, they'll listen to the clapping and find out.
So this for me, when I see this scene, it always makes my heart warm.
(23:19):
It's like everyone acting together, you know, it's very cute.
so interesting.
I'll have to pay attention to that aspect when I'm there.
Yeah.
that is that is so cool.
And do you have any advice to visitors or new residents coming to the city?
(23:39):
I know you
were a plentitude of advice for me in so many ways.
So I'm sure you could write a book on this topic, but if you have one or two ideas thatyou think would be helpful in terms of enjoying self-hallow.
yeah.
So I think São Paulo, because many people were not born in the city, is very differentfrom Rio in that aspect.
(23:59):
think people in São Paulo are very welcoming to people from abroad.
So there's lots of foreigners, of people that were not born in the city.
And this is completely different from Rio.
So in Rio, I would bump into people I know all the time.
I went to school with this person.
It's a smaller community in a sense.
And here, I think it's more welcoming because of this
you know, fact that not everyone was born here or in a small part of the people wereactually born in the city.
(24:22):
on the other side, it's a tough city, right?
I remember as soon as I arrived, I was a bit lost.
There's so many neighborhoods.
You don't really know, you know, which are the good neighbors and which ones are not.
You can have a, I think in many cities, I can live in a neighborhood, very good streetsand then a street that looks shady and you don't want to live there.
So I was a bit very overwhelming for me.
Like, how can I figure out how to understand this?
(24:45):
The finding the place to live.
remember this is 10 years ago, but I remember it had a big like impact on me and I wasvery worried about, you know, fitting in, et So I think it's like take it slow, you know,
it won't be easy.
think that's the number one advice.
Like it's a huge city.
So it won't be easy until you figure out your bearings, especially if you're coming from aplace where you don't speak the language or you speak little Portuguese.
(25:08):
It's an issue.
Like many Brazilians speak English, but the taxi driver might not speak English, etcetera.
So you might need.
So, you know better than I do that point, right?
You need to accept that not everyone will speak great English.
But I think in general, people are very welcoming and they want to help you.
And there's a thing in Brazil that we really appreciate for us.
have, it's even a thing that's criticized a lot as we think everyone that comes fromabroad is better than what we do inside the country.
(25:34):
Yes.
So there's, for example, my sister-in-law, she's half Japanese, half Swedish.
And when she lived in Rio and she first arrived in Rio, she was like, my God, everyone'sso nice.
They offered me to invite me everywhere because she's a gringa, right?
And they're all like, she's from abroad.
That's very special.
So this is something that's good for foreigners, right?
(25:55):
Maybe in contrast to other cultures that do not accept people not speaking the language.
I'm thinking, for example, in France that I've been a couple of times for work and I'mlike, horrible French.
And they're like, you have horrible French.
I don't think that would happen here with the gringo, right?
We would be like, let me help you, et cetera.
So I think that's very good aspect of it.
Coming from New York and coming from Rio, something that I had initially, was, I don'tknow, trouble is the right word, but I was like, where's the beauty in this city?
(26:22):
I was used to the beauty of the beach nature that I wouldn't find here, although there areother parks.
can nothing compares to looking out of your window and seeing the water of the ocean,right?
And coming from New York, which is although there's no ocean, there is the buildings arebeautiful, right?
The architecture is beautiful.
And you don't see that much in Sao Paulo.
In Sao Paulo, there's many ugly buildings and not that much of nature.
(26:43):
So when I first arrived, I was like, my God, like where do I find the beauty in this city?
And it's living here that I started finding the beauty because of the connections that Imake.
like, for example, I talked about the Praça de Milão.
I started seeing, this is a beautiful place, although this is not the ocean, this isbeautiful.
So also I think like it's place that you learn how to love through time.
(27:05):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, and that's something that is inherent in you, right?
To appreciate all of these moments where it's what grows, right?
It's that sun going down over the ocean.
you've learned how to do this your whole life and say, okay, I'm going to find a beauty inwhatever moment that I'm in.
(27:29):
and this is where I'm at right now and these things are really beautiful to me.
mean, something for me that's very unique to Sao Paulo is all of the street art.
I often can just look up and see a lot of different art.
on the streets.
So that sort of helps me sort of take a moment and say, wow, like even just a small littlearea that might have some graffiti on it.
(27:56):
And that is looks like, like,
the art scene is unbelievable.
If you want to go to a museum or a gallery or an art exhibition, there's a different oneevery single week.
It's funny, on my Instagram account where I talk about children's books, I sometimes alsosay things that I'm doing with the kids.
I went with the kids to this exhibit or to this museum or to this play.
(28:20):
And people that do not live in Sao Paulo and live in other states of Brazil,
They're always like, my God, how much offer, you know, the city has in terms of culturalthings.
And it is unbelievable, right?
You are absolutely never bored.
And I joke that if I throw a party in a restaurant on a Monday in Rio, no one will go.
They'll say, Monday?
(28:41):
I'm not going out, I'm going to sleep.
And if I throw one in San Paulo, going to be like a line at the door.
People go out, they like to party, they like to have drinks, they like to go out and eat.
They really appreciate good food.
So that's very good about the city, We always have something to do and something to learnand some new things to see.
All right.
One last question for you.
Can you let us know the names of your books so that the audience can find them and go to abookstore and engage with the literary community?
(29:10):
course, of course.
So I have two children's books.
They are only in Portuguese.
I have plans of translating them, but have not put that plans in motion.
So the first one is called, Enquanto Você Não Chega, which means while you're away orwhile you haven't arrived, which is a story about the working mom.
So the mom that's working out throughout the day and whatever happens in the kid's life,all the mom's not there.
(29:31):
And the second one is called, I Espera Por Você, which is the wait for you, which is thestory about a kid telling us how he was born.
after the mom and the dad went through IVF.
So it's a story about kids being born in a different way, which is something that I wentthrough to have my kids.
And they're available in bookstores and it's always a huge pleasure to go into a bookstoreand see one of my books there.
(29:56):
So if you're into children's books, please do look for them in the Sao Paulo stores.
and would love for you to have an author event.
you know, if that's...
it.
I do readings from time to time and I read my books as well as other books and then it's amoment that I can give autographs, whatever it needs, my little readers.
And of course, when I launched the books, I did a big signing event, which was very niceand very, very moment that I will always treasure.
(30:23):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining on this very first episode and I look forward toseeing you soon.
Definitely, me too.
Thank you so much for having me and I wish great talks in this podcast.
Morning, Marcella.
It's so wonderful to have you here.
My first guest.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you so much for having me, very excited.
I'm going to ask you a question about Sao Paulo in specific.
Do you have a specific spot or place that you go to that you'd love to talk to theaudience about?
(02:21):
So there's actually a place it's called Praça de Milão.
It's like a playground, a square.
There's a fountain.
It's called from Milão, which means Milan from Italy because it was Milan that gave thisfountain to Sao Paulo as a city.
it's right next to my house.
It's a place that I went a lot with my kids when they were really young as babies.
We would like set a little blanket on the lawn and like just play around and have like apicnic.
(02:45):
And it's a place where on Saturdays there is a food fair.
a theater that we call, which is great.
And every, think, once a month on the weekends, there's also a fair.
They have things you can buy, but also food.
And so it's a place that unites lots of families and has a special place in my heart.
That's why I like it so much.
Well, thank you for sharing that special place with us.
(03:09):
And I want to talk about something that is a concept that probably is unique to Brazil.
I was last night trying to think of what we might have equivalent here in the US and thereare variations of it, but I want to ask you about the concept of identifying yourself by
(03:32):
region.
So for example, you, to my understanding, and we can walk, you can walk me through this,you are a karaoke, correct?
Okay, so can we start from scratch and explain what a karaoke is versus a Paulista versusa Paulistana versus some of the other regions in Brazil?
(03:56):
You are also a New Yorker.
Mm-hmm.
so you have a lot of different places where you have made yourself at home.
And given that this podcast is about finding home, I'd love to just ask you about whateach thing means and how long it takes to become considered, you know, like to identify
(04:18):
with that particular region.
Perfect.
Yeah.
So in Brazil, we do have, there's even like some, I would say like competition.
So I'm saying, the Cariocas are better than the Paulistas.
If I'm from Bahia in the North, I feel very like it's a big cultural identity.
So there is, it's very specific.
think one of the reasons as well is because the accents are so different.
(04:39):
even though I'm living in Sao Paulo for 10 years, my accent is still very much a Cariocas.
So I'll say a sentence and everyone will identify immediately that I'm not from here, thatI'm from Rio.
There is a difference within Sao Paulo as well being from the city and being from theoutskirts.
There is a huge accent difference as well.
it's funny.
So I still say that I am a karaoke.
That's what I'm always going to be.
(04:59):
That's where I was born and lived until I was 30 or 20, 27.
So of course it's where I'm from, where my parents are, where I go every holiday for theJewish holidays, for Christmas, et cetera.
So it's where I always identify.
I think that I have
very big part of me that's all about what Rio is about, which is being more laid back,wanting to be outdoors and at the beach and nature, even dressing up.
(05:25):
You see don't have my hair, I didn't do like a blow out.
Everyone in Sao Paulo has a blow out all the time.
immediately bonded when we first met one another 12 years ago now.
Running from place to place.
hear you.
Exactly.
(05:45):
So that's very much like a Rio thing.
But at the same time, I completely identified when I moved to Sao Paulo, I think if I hadmoved because I did Rio, New York and then Sao Paulo.
think if I had moved from Rio to Sao Paulo, I would have had
a bigger impact because the lifestyle has a big difference, especially because you don'thave the beach and lots of what you're doing in the weekend in Rio is around the beach.
(06:09):
But because I moved from New York to Sao Paulo, then I think I easily adapted because theSao Paulo life is very similar to the New York life and in the sense that you have many
restaurants and cultural activities and it's a big, big city with parks, et cetera.
So then I think I identified because I made this move from New York to Sao Paulo.
I think a big difference for me is when I moved here, I moved to work at the same firmthat I've always worked with, which I began working in Rio.
(06:36):
So there was kind of like a family here for me, right?
Which was my work, some people that I knew from many years.
another difference I think is when I have twins and they were, as you know, and they wereborn here in Sao Paulo.
And I think when you have kids that are born in the city, it immediately becomes your cityas well, because it's the city where your kids were born and there's the school and.
the community around the school, et cetera.
(06:58):
there is a huge difference and I think I will have a little bit in my heart of each ofthese places where I live and where I'm from, cetera, but they're very different, one
among each other.
you're always a New Yorker to me as well.
Exactly.
And it's great when you make a move and you go back to the city where you once lived andyou feel at home, right?
(07:18):
So it's a very special feeling.
yeah, yeah.
And can you alight me a little bit also with the difference?
Like what is the difference between a Paulista and let's say a Paulistano?
You know, just specify that.
the thing about being from the city and being from the state.
So the state is huge.
And if you're someone that came, like for example, here in Sao Paulo it's very common tosay, where are you from?
(07:40):
And the person will say, he's from Sao Paulo, but not from the city.
So he was born in the countryside and he came, for example, I'm going to do college in thecity.
And that's when I moved to the city.
So a big part of the community that you meet and work and friends, et cetera.
are people that were not born in the city, born in the outskirts, but then came to live inthe city for work or for studying.
(08:01):
Can you identify as both?
It sounds like yes to a certain extent.
Yeah.
firm that were born, they will always have the accent from being from the outskirts, fromthe countryside, but when they move to the city, it becomes part of their life.
So yes, I do believe.
Yes.
this fluidness of where you're from and also acceptance of your new home, right?
(08:26):
because for example, my family in Rio say that I'm very Paulista because of things that Isay or things that I do or what I like.
And of course people here always say that I'm kind of a carioca.
So it depends on who you're talking to.
They will think you're more one or the other.
Right.
And even how you said, Paulish, it sounded to me, heard, now I'm getting a little moredialed in.
(08:49):
I heard a little bit of the karaoke accent.
So it was, you know, it just goes to show you can be a mix of everything and everywhere aslong as where you make yourself at home.
And that's the next question I wanted to ask you because
I remember this like it was yesterday and it was quite some time ago.
But when you and I met in New York City at the law firm where we used to work at andeveryone loved you and we all wanted you to stay and we had all the paperwork ready for
(09:20):
you.
But you were very clear and very adamant from the get-go that this was a wonderful placeand you wanted to stay as long as you could.
but your heart was always calling you back to Brazil.
And a lot of that, and this is before you had children, but I remember in thisconversation, a lot of that revolved around your desire to have a family and where you saw
(09:48):
yourself building this family.
And if we can go back in time then and now, in terms of what was that feeling that youknew that would
make Brazil and ultimately it ended up that you went to Sao Paulo because of work, youknow, what were some of those things that had you have a hard no to staying in the States
(10:11):
and moving back?
I think the big part of it was this about wanting to have a family and wanting my futurekids to be close to my parents.
And me being close to my parents as well.
As you are with yours, I'm very close to my parents.
I don't live in the same city as they do, but knowing that I can be on a plane and in 45minutes I'll land in the city that they're at gives me a very good feeling and knowing
(10:35):
that I'm close to them.
Whenever I have to travel for work or something, they easily come here and stay with mykids.
And I see how special this like living with your grandparents and experiencing life withyour grandparents is for my kids.
I think that was the big part of it.
There was also an aspect to the fact that both me and my husband, we are lawyers as youknow, and we were traveling very, very, we were working very, very long hours as the New
(10:59):
York rhythm of law firms is that's the normal pace, right?
And I would think like, can this work?
How can we both be these people that work a lot and have absolutely no one to like supportas grandparents, people that we can like drop off the kid if we need to.
And there's also a huge difference in Brazil.
There's also very big support that you can rely on, right?
(11:20):
So having a nanny, a full-time nanny, something that's completely normal.
I think if you compare it to New York.
rates that would be completely different.
And of course, we're talking about dollars as opposed to reais.
So everything's much cheaper, right?
Where we're at.
therefore I can afford to work an entire day and come back at 8.30 PM at night and mynanny will be here and then she will go home, which is something that I don't know how
(11:43):
viable would be living in New York, right?
And like I have an aunt that gives us in Sao Paulo.
So when the kids are sick and I'm in a meeting, my aunt will take the kids to the doctor.
So things that I thought.
How would that work out if it's just me, my husband and the kids in the future in NewYork?
So that was, yeah, a big part of it.
And I also thought that the New York rhythm was amazing, that then maybe I would get tiredof it in a while, that being in my 30s, I was easily sleeping very little, going out at
(12:10):
night and working a lot, I'm fine.
But now that I'm I'm...
28 days away from turning 40.
And I can already feel that it's much different, much different than the rhythm that youwere, you know, I won't work hard, I'm happy being at home and I don't need to go out that
much, things like that.
So that also I played a part of it.
And when I met my husband in New York, he was living there for, so when we met, he wasliving for three years and then we lived six years in total.
(12:35):
And he said, look, if we're gonna make this move, needs to be now.
Because if we go back older, we might not.
fit into the Brazilian market in terms of work, right?
So it was like a sweet spot that we needed to find or look, I think we've had all that wecould get from New York, but we're not coming back too late in our careers and then it
will be hard to fit back in a lot in a Brazilian office.
(12:57):
And aspects of Brazil that you really appreciate as a parent.
Yeah.
I think it's, I have a bit mixed feelings about this because I think if you compare likewith Europe, where parents do not have nannies, like everyone is, it's accepted that you
need to leave at, I don't know, 3 p.m.
(13:18):
to pick up your kid at school.
And this is not accepted in Brazil if you're a working parent because they know you have ananny, right?
So that's something that I do not like from Brazil, which I believe is...
It's expected for you to, know, the nanny to have a very important role in the lives ofthe kids and to working parents, therefore do not need to be at home because you have the
help.
So that's what I don't like.
(13:39):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel this is when I talk to friends that live in Europe and compare to my lifestyle,right?
I find that hard, but of course I make a point of being present in my kids' to do thisthing that I can.
It's a constant effort for me.
But in terms of the good side for me is that
It's the thing about the grandparents, I think, is the biggest weight of it.
(13:59):
Like, it's being close to the parents.
I have three nieces and nephews and they live and they have a very good relationship aswell, even though they live in Rio.
So it's the being close to family for me is like the best part of being here.
That's amazing.
And let's also talk about the fact that you're a children's book author and you're anattorney and you're running around all over the city.
(14:22):
So Palo, I think, is a very energetic and vibrant city.
And can you go into that a little bit more in terms of the literary scene, how thatenergy, how that
There's a very strong devotion to bookstores and books that I find when I'm in Sao Paulo.
(14:43):
And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that as a lawyer, as an author.
I think there's a lot of excitement generated around book culture, particularly in SaoPaulo where I've experienced book culture.
Can you explain that a little bit more for someone who's looking for that liveliness?
to fuel their own creativity, whatever that's in.
(15:05):
For example, for my work, I find it very helpful to have that intellectual stimulation andcreativity as a pervasive aspect of the city itself.
Definitely.
It definitely is.
And it's something that makes me really happy to see because of course we've passed, Idon't know, 20 years, been living in a crisis, right?
(15:27):
Where the bookstores cannot compete with Amazon prices.
And it's an issue.
But I do think that culturally everyone in Sao Paulo is aware of the fact that bookstoresbring us lots of good things and that we need to make an effort to keep them alive.
So I see bookstores opening all the time.
bookstores because of what I just mentioned, Cannot Live just off selling off books.
(15:50):
So they do lots of events to attract people.
I constantly go and do readings for children in bookstores and I've gone to places, let'sread a book.
And then the children will do like a piece of work of art based on the book.
And there's also for adults as well, lots of readings and book clubs.
yeah, so I'm very impressed of how lively this book scene is.
(16:12):
especially in the children's sector.
So for example, in New York, I know of one children's bookstore.
In Sao Paulo, like schools of the children's book in Sao Paulo, I think there were likesix or something.
So it's like impressive in a city to have so many.
and as I mentioned, they have to constantly be doing, events to attract people.
So just this Saturday, I went to an event in a bookstore and the, was a book that had the,the illustrator of the children's book had used.
(16:40):
dirt to make the illustration.
So was very beautiful, very artistic.
And basically the activity they proposed that all the kids would draw their feet and handswith chalk on the sidewalk.
And then we would paint with the same paint that she used to paint the book with, whichwas a mix of dirt and water, the feet and the hands on the sidewalk.
And it was so like, look, this is such an amazing activity because we're using our bodiesand we're using, but you were living in the outside, right?
(17:06):
Which is something that we lost a lot, right?
because of security, of lots of things.
would like when my parents were young, they would like play soccer on the streets.
And now we all live inside big buildings and we don't live on the street that much.
So every time that I have something that involves the kids being on the street, it'ssomething that I really appreciate.
So that was just an example of something that we did, which was in a bookstore and made,was a wonderful thing that I did on a Saturday with my kids.
(17:31):
So it's something that always plan at least one day per week.
to be in a bookstore, I think you find out new things.
I love going up to the person working at the bookstore and saying, look, tell me what areyour favorite books?
And then you can, you you get to know the person.
And everyone, if you ask that to someone, they will always have something to share withyou that you learn.
(17:52):
So yeah, I'm very happy about it.
And I can mention some bookstores.
So there's a bookstore.
yeah, so in San Trudon downtown, which is big, like there's an art scene, there'sbookstores, and there's this place called Mega Fauna.
which is beautiful and amazing in this historic building called Copão.
in the same building you have like a very nice bar, have some bars around, you have DonaOnça, which is a famous restaurant, typical Brazilian food, etc.
(18:18):
And it's something that you can go and you see the books and there's many events withauthors talking, they have a drink and they have some food, something that I really like.
And in children's books there's a recent bookstore that opened recently called CasaCojmux.
And they, I think, nailed it on the aspect that a bookstore shouldn't be just a bookstore,but should have lots of things.
So it's a big house in Vila Madalena, which is a very cool scene, school, coolneighborhood, as you know.
(18:42):
And they have like a bar downstairs, a place where they sell stuff, a place where theysell books, a nice area for families to read together.
And when they opened it for the first time, on the opening, they hired a band, and thenthe band played music.
So like you see all of these different things within the same.
environment context.
it's very exciting.
(19:03):
I remember I was walking down the street in Sao Paulo and was really nice because one ofthe special things about being in warmer weather is you can congregate outside.
So a passerby on the street such as myself, I'm walking by and I'm seeing these peopleoutside with champagne glasses, speaking, looking very lively.
(19:28):
And I'm thinking, what's going on in this store?
I love the feeling of the fact that you can be inside and outside of these stores and feelvery free and then also congregate with fellow book lovers, maybe talk about the books
that are in the store, that specific author who was there that day.
(19:50):
And I thought that was a very special aspect.
of the bookstore culture in that city because of the, one of the reasons being, well, ofcourse for me, I see a champagne glass outside a bookstore and I'm gonna walk in, but the
ability to see that visibly and then stop in for a few minutes, whereas in other cities,you have to maybe have read,
(20:17):
a to-do magazine or something to know that this is going on, you wouldn't be able to seeit otherwise.
And it kind of takes it sort of like, in my opinion, Brazilian culture, you know, itinvites you in with a very big hug.
And I think that that has been my experience of just the culture in general and how itrelates to the literary scene.
(20:40):
It's like, come in, enjoy, read a book.
talk to some people, it's a Saturday afternoon and it's a nice day out.
yeah.
Yeah.
(21:01):
Yeah.
It has, lends itself to some shorter days and can be snowy and wet and cold
And I can imagine where that would be an additional draw.
in last week, I was in London for work and at 3.30, 4 PM it was already dark and Icouldn't see how people, you know, get more like you don't do that much.
(21:23):
You want to sleep earlier.
You want to be inside and you're a little bit sadder.
I'm for me, like weather and my humor is completely related.
That's a big link.
And the thing about you, when you said that being on the street is a bit to what I hadjust said as well.
when the, thing on the sidewalk.
which is a very karaoke thing as well.
So very commonly in bars, you have the bar, but people are like standing outside.
(21:45):
There's a neighborhood in Rio called Urca, which is where my mother-in-law lives and whereI was born as a baby.
lived there as well.
So it's a beautiful, beautiful scene.
You're next to the ocean and you see the sugarloaf and there's many bars and people arejust sitting down on this little, we call mureta, which is like a little stone thing right
next to the water.
So we would just buy her a beer, sit down.
(22:07):
And then they clap when the sun comes down.
it's like being outside for me, it's amazing.
Yeah.
And also, in light of the clapping when the sun goes down, I think it's so much what Ienjoy about being Brazil and you just nailed it with the clapping when the sun goes down,
right?
It's like you're taking this little moment of appreciation by clapping and acknowledgingthe beauty of this.
(22:34):
And that's a collective thing.
And I think that's
we all find that and try to do that ourselves, but another cultural element of thiscommunal enjoyment of gratitude really something special and just throughout my
experiences that I've had in the country.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
(22:55):
There's a thing that you just said that reminds me of something.
when there's a kid that's lost in the beach, what we do as people from Rio de Janeiro,from Cariocas, is we start clapping where the kid is at.
So the kid's near me, I'm clapping.
So if the mom is looking for the kid, they'll listen to the clapping and find out.
So this for me, when I see this scene, it always makes my heart warm.
(23:19):
It's like everyone acting together, you know, it's very cute.
so interesting.
I'll have to pay attention to that aspect when I'm there.
Yeah.
that is that is so cool.
And do you have any advice to visitors or new residents coming to the city?
(23:39):
I know you
were a plentitude of advice for me in so many ways.
So I'm sure you could write a book on this topic, but if you have one or two ideas thatyou think would be helpful in terms of enjoying self-hallow.
yeah.
So I think São Paulo, because many people were not born in the city, is very differentfrom Rio in that aspect.
(23:59):
think people in São Paulo are very welcoming to people from abroad.
So there's lots of foreigners, of people that were not born in the city.
And this is completely different from Rio.
So in Rio, I would bump into people I know all the time.
I went to school with this person.
It's a smaller community in a sense.
And here, I think it's more welcoming because of this
you know, fact that not everyone was born here or in a small part of the people wereactually born in the city.
(24:22):
on the other side, it's a tough city, right?
I remember as soon as I arrived, I was a bit lost.
There's so many neighborhoods.
You don't really know, you know, which are the good neighbors and which ones are not.
You can have a, I think in many cities, I can live in a neighborhood, very good streetsand then a street that looks shady and you don't want to live there.
So I was a bit very overwhelming for me.
Like, how can I figure out how to understand this?
(24:45):
The finding the place to live.
remember this is 10 years ago, but I remember it had a big like impact on me and I wasvery worried about, you know, fitting in, et So I think it's like take it slow, you know,
it won't be easy.
think that's the number one advice.
Like it's a huge city.
So it won't be easy until you figure out your bearings, especially if you're coming from aplace where you don't speak the language or you speak little Portuguese.
(25:08):
It's an issue.
Like many Brazilians speak English, but the taxi driver might not speak English, etcetera.
So you might need.
So, you know better than I do that point, right?
You need to accept that not everyone will speak great English.
But I think in general, people are very welcoming and they want to help you.
And there's a thing in Brazil that we really appreciate for us.
have, it's even a thing that's criticized a lot as we think everyone that comes fromabroad is better than what we do inside the country.
(25:34):
Yes.
So there's, for example, my sister-in-law, she's half Japanese, half Swedish.
And when she lived in Rio and she first arrived in Rio, she was like, my God, everyone'sso nice.
They offered me to invite me everywhere because she's a gringa, right?
And they're all like, she's from abroad.
That's very special.
So this is something that's good for foreigners, right?
(25:55):
Maybe in contrast to other cultures that do not accept people not speaking the language.
I'm thinking, for example, in France that I've been a couple of times for work and I'mlike, horrible French.
And they're like, you have horrible French.
I don't think that would happen here with the gringo, right?
We would be like, let me help you, et cetera.
So I think that's very good aspect of it.
Coming from New York and coming from Rio, something that I had initially, was, I don'tknow, trouble is the right word, but I was like, where's the beauty in this city?
(26:22):
I was used to the beauty of the beach nature that I wouldn't find here, although there areother parks.
can nothing compares to looking out of your window and seeing the water of the ocean,right?
And coming from New York, which is although there's no ocean, there is the buildings arebeautiful, right?
The architecture is beautiful.
And you don't see that much in Sao Paulo.
In Sao Paulo, there's many ugly buildings and not that much of nature.
(26:43):
So when I first arrived, I was like, my God, like where do I find the beauty in this city?
And it's living here that I started finding the beauty because of the connections that Imake.
like, for example, I talked about the Praça de Milão.
I started seeing, this is a beautiful place, although this is not the ocean, this isbeautiful.
So also I think like it's place that you learn how to love through time.
(27:05):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, and that's something that is inherent in you, right?
To appreciate all of these moments where it's what grows, right?
It's that sun going down over the ocean.
you've learned how to do this your whole life and say, okay, I'm going to find a beauty inwhatever moment that I'm in.
(27:29):
and this is where I'm at right now and these things are really beautiful to me.
mean, something for me that's very unique to Sao Paulo is all of the street art.
I often can just look up and see a lot of different art.
on the streets.
So that sort of helps me sort of take a moment and say, wow, like even just a small littlearea that might have some graffiti on it.
(27:56):
And that is looks like, like,
the art scene is unbelievable.
If you want to go to a museum or a gallery or an art exhibition, there's a different oneevery single week.
It's funny, on my Instagram account where I talk about children's books, I sometimes alsosay things that I'm doing with the kids.
I went with the kids to this exhibit or to this museum or to this play.
(28:20):
And people that do not live in Sao Paulo and live in other states of Brazil,
They're always like, my God, how much offer, you know, the city has in terms of culturalthings.
And it is unbelievable, right?
You are absolutely never bored.
And I joke that if I throw a party in a restaurant on a Monday in Rio, no one will go.
They'll say, Monday?
(28:41):
I'm not going out, I'm going to sleep.
And if I throw one in San Paulo, going to be like a line at the door.
People go out, they like to party, they like to have drinks, they like to go out and eat.
They really appreciate good food.
So that's very good about the city, We always have something to do and something to learnand some new things to see.
All right.
One last question for you.
Can you let us know the names of your books so that the audience can find them and go to abookstore and engage with the literary community?
(29:10):
course, of course.
So I have two children's books.
They are only in Portuguese.
I have plans of translating them, but have not put that plans in motion.
So the first one is called, Enquanto Você Não Chega, which means while you're away orwhile you haven't arrived, which is a story about the working mom.
So the mom that's working out throughout the day and whatever happens in the kid's life,all the mom's not there.
(29:31):
And the second one is called, I Espera Por Você, which is the wait for you, which is thestory about a kid telling us how he was born.
after the mom and the dad went through IVF.
So it's a story about kids being born in a different way, which is something that I wentthrough to have my kids.
And they're available in bookstores and it's always a huge pleasure to go into a bookstoreand see one of my books there.
(29:56):
So if you're into children's books, please do look for them in the Sao Paulo stores.
and would love for you to have an author event.
you know, if that's...
it.
I do readings from time to time and I read my books as well as other books and then it's amoment that I can give autographs, whatever it needs, my little readers.
And of course, when I launched the books, I did a big signing event, which was very niceand very, very moment that I will always treasure.
(30:23):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining on this very first episode and I look forward toseeing you soon.
Definitely, me too.
Thank you so much for having me and I wish great talks in this podcast.
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