April 28, 2025 • 62 mins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Welcome to Wild Turkey Science, a podcast made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow.
I'm Dr.
Marcus Lashley, Professor of Wildlife Ecology at the University of Florida.
And I'm Dr.
Will Gulsby, Professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at Auburn University.
We're both lifelong hunters and devoted scientists who are passionate about hunting,managing, and researching wild turkeys.
(00:33):
In this podcast, we'll explore turkey research, speak to the experts in the field,
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That's interesting.
So I ran five shells, including the one that malfunctioned and they all fired.
And then I ran.
(02:18):
box of seven and a half, 25 rounds.
I could not get it to miss fire again.
I don't know why.
I don't know what happened.
Well, mean, 30 shots.
mean, that's pretty good.
That's a pretty good lead in.
don't you go ahead and tell what led up to you shooting an entire box of shells throughyour four 10.
(02:39):
Well, I didn't intend for this to be on the air, but since we're here,
Well, I'm recording.
I get to, get to be the host that asks the uncomfortable questions today.
Oh, okay.
That's why we're going to do this.
uh I actually got to hit record today.
So that was exciting.
Yeah.
(03:01):
So we've been doing a lot of hunting and, I went hunting in North Mississippi with, withseveral folks.
In fact, some of the stuff I wanted to talk today about.
came from a discussion with me and Adam Butler, who we've had on the show.
He and I got to hunt a little bit together and, uh, we thought, I thought it'd be a goodidea to talk about some of those things.
(03:25):
Cause folks, folks have turkeys on their mind right now.
Right.
One could imagine.
so we, uh, me and a guy named Herne Foster that, got his masters at Mississippi stateuniversity.
No one in him since his graduate days, uh, he and I went out hunting together and got allover the birds.
(03:53):
main, you know, I will remind everybody I have started hunting with a four 10 and I havefor about a week, mainly used the wing bone and trumpets.
I've been trying not to use other stuff.
So
I've gotten quite, quite an interesting response from quite a few turkeys from that.
(04:18):
Um, I feel much more confident.
We'll just put it that way because I've been responding pretty positively to those calls.
But anyway, we, we, uh, got on a bird that we, had multiple choices and we picked this onebecause we thought we could get in really good position on him.
(04:38):
We were pretty sure he was by himself.
And he was gobbling, you know, just on fire.
And we went and got set up about 80 or 90 yards from him.
He's just over the crest of a hill in the Creek bottom.
When he struts to the right, um, you know, he's in this little area that he's struttingwhen he gets to the right side of the area, he's strutting in.
(05:02):
can see him through the woods.
When he goes to the left, he's hidden by the crest of the hill.
So.
You know, we're in these hardwoods.
If you go 50 yards up the hill, it turns transitions into open pine.
That's about 50 by basal area.
And it's been burned just recently.
(05:25):
So really good, you know, rolling hills, open pine with hardwood bottoms and the hardwoodsare mature and open.
So really nice, uh, set up.
We messed with the Turkey for about maybe 45 minutes or an hour.
That Turkey gobbled at everything.
(05:49):
A leaf fell off a tree and he's gone.
Yeah.
saw a squirrel over there, you know, and he starts barking the Turkey gobbles at that.
Yeah.
Every sound in the woods made the Turkey go, which made us feel really good.
(06:10):
Right.
Cause everything we did, he gobbled at it, but he would not commit to us.
He, he just, he wouldn't cross the creek.
So finally her and I put together a game plan.
So you showed him that fan, right?
no, no, we didn't have no decoys, no fans.
There was none that I was making a play on last week's episode.
(06:31):
Yeah.
Well, I, know, if somebody wouldn't want it to do that, I can understand.
That was a pretty frustrating Turkey because he just stayed where he was and wasn't goingto have us.
Even though he's alone, it's like eight 30 in the morning.
He's still goblin on fire and, uh, all by himself and won't come to us and the creek.
It's not like it's a, a 40 foot wide creek.
(06:53):
I'm talking about like a little ephemeral creek that you can just step in and step overit.
know, um, anyway, this bird's doing that.
So he and I put together a game plan that.
Uh, for that morning I was on, on the gun.
So her.
(07:14):
Took his, his slight call and play to run away hand on him.
So that was our game play.
And, ah so about every 15 or 20 yards, her and did a little soft yelp, like he's goingback up the hill and he ended up getting up maybe 80 to a hundred yards up the hill from
(07:34):
me.
The Turkey just lost his mind and he came in perfect.
So he comes walking into my right.
I'm pointed where I thought he was going to come out and he was a little right of that.
you're sitting here thinking this is too perfect.
Yeah.
Well, it looked like it was going to go past to me and I wasn't going to get a shotbecause I was in a root ball.
(07:57):
Oak that had fallen down.
Yeah.
And if he had kept going to my right, I wouldn't have been able to turn and her and hisway up the hill.
So he can't clean up either.
So, you know, at first I was like, no, that's what's going to happen.
And herns up there.
Meanwhile, eating popcorn, watching me with binoculars, you know, he's up there watchingall this go down and like, he's in the upper deck of the stadium.
(08:23):
And, anyway, this Turkey comes in and he's going to my right and I'm like, no.
But then he just turns and comes right up the hill and he walks right into my scope, 15yards standing there.
And I pulled the trigger and click.
um And I paused and I was like, what, what just happened?
(08:46):
You know, and everything's in slow motion now because I'm panicking and the turkeyspanicking and you shoot auto loader.
Yes.
So I thought, did I not load the gun?
No, I definitely loaded the gun.
And, know, I'm like going through this checklist, which is over the course of about aquarter of a second.
(09:08):
I've gone through a checklist and I was like, I loaded the gun.
know that the action was sealed.
I don't have any option here except to try to rack another shell.
And I'm going to do that before he gets out of here.
And remember there's that little crest of the hill.
So he doesn't have to go, but about five steps and then he's gone.
(09:31):
So I racked another shell and by the time I got it right, I could see maybe a foot, know,his head and down a foot.
So I could still shoot, but he was behind stuff and I could not get back on him.
Yeah.
And anyway, I'm just devastated.
(09:53):
I had a really special heart.
was a really amazing experience.
One of the most gobbling, uh, Turkey hunts that I've ever been on is just amazing.
And, uh, you know, Fort in with that was a bit anti-comatic if you might.
(10:14):
So like we did all of it right.
and got him into 15 yards and you know, we get a click and herns watching me through thebinoculars and he heard him put the Turkey ran in three different directions when he was
getting out of there at the same time.
don't even know how he did it.
(10:34):
You know, he looked like Fred Flintstones.
What I told him, he was running.
He ran three different directions and his head was still in the same place and he didn'teven move.
So it was just, know, whatever you.
I know exactly what you're talking about is the bad thing.
Yeah.
Well, you know, when you're panicked and every, like you're in that, you know, that, that,moment that it's just like stretched out and it's like that shutter speed and,
(11:05):
everything's so vivid during that.
Yeah.
I heard him said he was watching me through the binoculars and he couldn't see whathappened.
He thought the Turkey came to the right and saw me before because he knew I wasn't goingto be able to turn either.
Yeah.
But it was only cover in the woods.
There's only cover we could get to.
(11:25):
that's why I was sitting like that.
But, anyway, he said these watching me through the binoculars and he said for, for solidseveral seconds, I didn't move.
I just sat there.
And I can remember, you know, like what's going through my head.
I'm sitting there and I, uh, at first I was just frozen.
(11:47):
Like what just happened?
I cannot understand this.
And then he sees my hands kind of sprawl out to the sides of the tree, which I was like,you know, what happened?
And I literally had my hands out like at this belief.
And then it hit me that I threw a shell out.
I know I heard a click like what.
(12:08):
Let me find the shale.
So then he says, roll over and I look like I was digging around in the leaves and hecouldn't figure out what I'm doing, you know?
um And, I finally dig up the four 10 shale and it has, it has a dented primer where the,pin had hit it.
So we've, know, there's a bunch of us there hunting together and we went througheverything we could think of, you know, was the action not set was.
(12:38):
You know, this or that, and we've just, we didn't have any ideas.
And one of the guys said, well, mate, you know, the only time that's ever happened to me,I, uh, I had dropped a shale in the water when I was duck hunting.
And they said that when he shot that shale, he had some pen tails work in.
(13:00):
And when he shot that shale, the pellets just literally rolled out the end of the barrel.
Yeah.
And I was like,
You know, just like hit me real fast.
my God.
You remember the story about the Turkey last week that I hunted in the rain for fourhours.
that was our prevailing hypothesis.
(13:22):
Yeah.
And since then, because I don't want that to happen ever again.
Right.
Uh, also I know there's a bunch of folks out there, you know, uh, listening to this.
Uh, you know, like stuff like this happens and it's embarrassing, but here we are layingit out for the world to hear it, you know, uh, but I, I try to take great care and making
(13:54):
sure that stuff like that doesn't happen.
So, you know, uh, came home and I was with my dad and we were trying to go througheverything, figure out what is going on and.
I fired four more shells of my Turkey loads.
I then fired a box of 25, seven and a half and I fired the shell that I, that misfired.
(14:27):
all of them shot fine.
Wow.
30, 30 rounds through it and we could not get it to misfire again.
So I don't know what happened.
So if we have a.
gun expert out there that has ideas on what happened.
There was a pin mark in, you know, it was Denon and the shell didn't go off, but it didthe second time.
(14:50):
Yeah.
See, I wonder if during that, what during that rainy hunt, I wonder if your fire and pingot a little hung up and then that first shot, you got a light strike on that shell and
that loosened it up.
So all those subsequent shots, it was already loose and it was fine.
(15:16):
the right now the sun
We pulled one of the old school tricks on him to beat him.
(15:38):
And that was cool.
You know, enjoyed that, but obviously I'd like to take, him home with me.
Yeah.
Well, it seems to be that that's kind of way our luck is going this season for both of us.
uh Yeah.
We've I've been in and amongst a lot of birds.
Um, I've been all over man hit the ground yet.
(16:00):
And, uh, that's how it was last weekend at Westerville too.
And.
Um, I mean, that was a, that was a fun experience, even though we didn't get a bird on theground there either.
And, yeah, you want to tell everybody a little bit about, yeah, you know what we weredoing there and, and, uh, the history of that would be cool to unpack a little bit.
(16:23):
Yeah.
So, you know, disclaimer, we're not going to go deep on any science today.
Um, just because, you know, we've been trying to enjoy our turkey season the same as y'allhave.
So.
Well, we do have a little science that I think an anecdote from Adam Butler that, I thinkwould be worth us discussing.
Yeah.
That's very relevant to, to hunting.
Right.
(16:43):
We all are right now, but, um, yeah.
So this was my second year participating in that hunt at the Westerville lodge.
And for those of you that aren't aware of it, the Westerville lodge is in Pickens County,Alabama, which is, kind of West central Alabama near Aliceville.
If you want to look up the nearest town and.
I'm not exactly sure how long it's been going, but it's been a while.
(17:06):
um And to give you some context, know, Colonel Tom Kelly was, is undoubtedly the mostfamous instructor that has ever played a role in that, in that school and that program.
And he was the one that ran the program for the, I think the longest tenure of anybody,but you know, Ben Rogers Lee even helped out with it.
(17:31):
they're in certain years, in the past.
So the Westerbelt Lodge has been around a long time and it has an, has a long history ofbeing an outstanding place to Turkey hunt.
And each year, um, they have this Westerbelt Turkey school.
So they sell Turkey hunts on this property.
And during this particular weekend, hunters can, you know, buy a two day hunt, but it'snot just the hunt during the Westerbelt Turkey school as the name would suggest.
(17:58):
It's basically a program where you get to turkey hunt alongside knowledgeable guides.
And when we're not hunting, we spend the time, you know, we go out in the morning and thenwe spend the rest, uh, the rest of the late morning into the early afternoon talking about
how to turkey hunt.
um, like Terrence Williamson came in, you know, he's, he's won the grand national in the,uh, the friction category.
(18:27):
um, I think more than once, I know he has at least once Marcus, you may remember a littlebit better than I can, he's definitely, he's definitely won a lot of impressive.
Yes.
Yeah.
don't remember how many times he won that one, but it at least once and there was severalother things as well.
Yeah.
He's with rolling thunder calls now.
(18:47):
Um, and has, you know, worked with a lot of, you know, great, well known callmanufacturers in the past too.
Um,
Cause they dang sure didn't want you and I teaching the call in portion.
Well, you know, it's funny.
got the, person that went out with Terrence on the first day went out with me on thesecond day.
(19:09):
And I was like, Hey, now I don't want you to get any ideas that what you got with Terrenceis normal.
It's not going to sound like, but, mean, he's world-class, know, at one point,
It was funny because he said one time he's like, well, I'm not the best in the world atthis.
I was like, no, you're the best of the world.
(19:32):
You literally are.
not you then who?
Right.
Yeah.
But then, the lodge manager, Steven Carroll also helps, you know, teach a good bit of it.
And he talks a lot about, you know, strategy set up, you know, equipment that Turkeyhunters might want to use.
um
We go through various different scenarios.
(19:53):
Hunters get to pattern their guns.
get to learn how to estimate range.
Essentially it is a comprehensive kind of like our, our habitat Academy was, but insteadof focusing on habitat management for turkeys, it's just focused on hunting turkeys.
However, um, you know, Marcus and I did a little, a little segment, um, on Saturdayafternoon, um, talking about, you know, turkey biology, life history.
(20:19):
And how that plays into hunting and how that also plays into management because, you know,we want these guys, not only to become effective turkey takers, but effective turkey
makers, you know, too, when they leave this thing.
Um, and so, you know, we, gave a little presentation, do the Q and a session, um, just toclue these folks in on, you know, what's going on with turkeys and the challenges that
(20:44):
they're facing and how can we help them, you know, overcome some of those challenges.
Yeah.
So all in all, really, really good experience is something that I very much have grown toenjoy because, you know, I think I even commented on Terrence's Instagram page.
He made a post on it.
(21:06):
And uh I said, you know, that that place is definitely hallowed ground when it comes tothe wild turkey.
I mean, just you feel so honored to be there.
It's like you can almost feel the colonel's presence.
mean.
Um, one of the rooms in the lodge is the Colonel Tom Kelly room.
I've, you know, gotten to stay in that one before, and it just feels it's like hispresence is there, you know?
(21:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it's really cool.
Really awesome history and yeah, you know, really, really beautiful property.
It was fun to get to, go around, look at it and, and here's some turkeys gobble.
Yeah.
And the other fun thing about that is, you know, especially for me too, is, um, I've beenworking with.
with the Westervelt staff here for the past couple of years, helping them, you know, kindof fine tune some things across the lodge property.
(21:55):
and, know, I'm excited.
We're already seeing like a positive response in the habitat, a positive response from thebird population.
And my expectation is that in the next five years, um, that's only going to continue toget better.
In that being said, they, already have a very solid Turkey population.
Um, but we're going to.
(22:15):
We're trying our best to take it even further, you know, to the extreme of, of that, thatdensity that we could potentially achieve.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's good stuff.
Which kind of leads us up to what we kind of, what we were just about to about to say, uh,since you brought up density, I think that's a good segue for us to, to talk about that
(22:37):
song.
So I mentioned a few minutes ago that, that I had.
I got an opportunity to hunt with Adam Butler and, uh, you know, that was a lot of fun.
We got on a bird and he was hot and we gobbled and gobbled and he kind of started easingaway from us.
And we got on on X and worked out a plan and did a button hook on him, got in front of himand, uh, got him to about 70 yards and a hen showed up in between us.
(23:11):
She just popped out.
And he, course, uh, would rather have a real hand than us.
So he got with that hand and she led him back where we came from.
And, we never heard from him again.
sounds like that, huh?
And I had in South Carolina a couple of weekends ago.
Yeah.
(23:32):
Out hand.
So it was.
It was interesting though, because Adam and I were talking and of course, all kinds ofthings, you know, and he's super knowledgeable scientists and was the Turkey coordinator
for Mississippi for, for quite a few years.
And, you know, we were just kind of sharing knowledge and anecdotes and that sort of thingand talking science.
(23:54):
And he's like, you know, when, when I'm talking to people, I'm trying to get a feel forthe density on their land.
And he's like this.
This place that we're on, we've got a high density because we, we had heard at least eightindividual birds and potentially a ninth the morning before.
(24:15):
Uh, you know, me, can we pause right there for a second?
Yo.
So I have, I've, I've only had the pleasure of having a few hunts wherever heard that manybirds, you know, I've had a handful of places that I've gotten to hunt where.
They're just everywhere.
It's almost 360 degrees.
There's a good goblin bird.
(24:36):
You know, her, her and at one point on the first morning, they were really hot.
Yeah.
We were in the middle of birds.
They're all on the ground at seven 30 in the morning.
Yeah.
And we were in the middle of them and, he and I looked at each other and was like, I don'tknow what to do right now.
Well, that's what I was going to say is.
Every time it feels like almost every time I'm in that situation, I've learned from itnow.
(25:00):
And I like to think that I'm going to do better next time, but every occasion, I don'tknow about you, but every occasion where that, happens, I feel like as soon as a bird
shuts up for like three and a half minutes, I find myself going to another bird.
And what do you end up doing?
You're following the gobble.
(25:20):
You just keep chasing the gobble and you eat up with empty handed.
Cause you don't well there and work a bird long enough.
Yeah.
Well, and what we did, you know, we it's a good problem to have.
Yeah.
Her and I, so there might, we don't know what to do.
So what we did is we studied every bird and there were multiple ones that we thought itwas more than one bird together.
(25:46):
Right.
But
What we ended up doing is we picked the one we studied where all of them were in relationto where we were, what we thought that they might do.
And we picked the one that we thought we had the most advantage on because of where it wasand where we thought it would and where we could get to safely to pursue it.
(26:10):
We still came out of it.
Yeah.
We came out of it empty handed, but it was because of the misfire.
Right.
We otherwise did that.
Right.
But I think that.
That was a testament to when you get in that situation, you know, figure out the one thatis the best opportunity that gives you the biggest advantage and commit.
(26:33):
You know, that would be my advice under most situations at least.
Yeah.
Now if one just shuts up and you got another one that gobbles 300 times right over thehill, you know, it's hard not to pursue that.
And it's a lot easier to stay on a bird that's gobbling obviously.
So.
Right.
Uh, anyway, that, that's a remarkable morning.
(26:57):
You know, like hearing that many birds, I've, I remember hearing birds like that when Iwas a kid and I have not had that many.
Oh, it's like that sense.
Right.
So we, you know, we were discussing this because the next morning wasn't as good, but westill know.
(27:18):
that we heard at least four birds gobble and potentially a fifth, which is still notshabby.
Right.
We, we think the bird that we were on before that hand got to him, he gobbled at least 200times was what we decided.
Yeah.
Like, mean, if you're here, four or five birds, that's still pretty good.
I mean, if I'm in a listening spot and I can hear two or three, I mean, that's a goodmorning.
(27:43):
Yeah.
Well, that's what we were discussing is, and that's what.
You know, Adam came up with, uh, what he, you know, was describing to me.
So now we're back.
Right.
That it's like, you know, I work with a lot of landowners.
I've had my finger on the pulse of Mississippi's population for a long time.
(28:04):
And he's like, usually I start with that, with people and say, well, how many birds do younormally hear?
Not, not how many of you ever heard on the morning, like the best morning ever, but howmany do you think you hear on average?
And he said that most people will say one or two.
Right.
(28:24):
Right.
And that's like, and that, you know, you'd consider as a pretty good morning.
We heard bird gobble.
Good morning.
And he's like, you know, that that's kind of on that.
Low to average population.
Yeah.
Like obviously if you don't hear any or they're intermittent and you're kind of on the lowend.
(28:44):
Yeah.
As it said, but you know, if you're, if you're getting to.
two to four birds that you hear on average, your population's doing pretty good.
It's above average.
Right.
And then he was saying, you know, if, people were four to six, that's on the high end andanything above that, we would consider an excellent population density.
(29:11):
Yeah.
So I thought, I thought that would be a really good.
thing for people to think about when you're going out and listening and hunting.
Hopefully everybody's hearing six or eight, 10 birds at a time.
But, uh, you know, if you're hearing four or five, your population is probably in prettygood shape, but based on what, he was saying.
(29:38):
Yeah, I would totally agree with that.
And I think that that's especially useful considering that.
We really don't have a great way of indexing turkey populations that we've scientificallyvalidated other than, mean, know, gobble counts have been used to index turkey populations
for a long time.
And, you know, there's some assumptions in there that may not hold true in everycircumstance, but, you know, it can provide an index.
(30:05):
And what that means is that it's related to the population size, but it's not an exactmeasure of the population size.
So you would expect to hear more birds on average on a given morning as the populationincreases.
mean, that's pretty intuitive.
And it's not, like I said, a perfect estimator, but it can give you some idea.
(30:26):
Right.
And it's not a measure of how many gobbles you hear necessarily.
It's how many individual gobbles do you know that you heard?
Right.
So, and so a, example of why that index might not hold true is like, I know with, withquail, you know, we use Covey call counts.
And I think it's been proven with quail that the higher density you have, you actuallyhave more calling, not just because you have more birds, but because they're stimulating
(30:54):
each other to call.
And I imagine that the same thing happens with gobblers.
Right.
So I can vouch that that does happen.
It did have another, right.
Adam and I made note of that.
Um, the bird that we were on.
Every time we heard somebody else gobble, he gobbled at them.
(31:16):
responded every single one.
Exactly.
Whereas if you'd only had a couple of birds around, you know, there would not be as muchgobbling for him to respond to.
So yes, this non additive relationship where as you increase gobbler density, youexponentially increase, maybe not exponential, but there's a nonlinear.
(31:40):
that just means the line is curved.
Right.
As you increase density, increase gobbling faster.
Right.
So, I think, yeah, I think that's a, you know, a really good thing for folks to keep inmind.
And since you're all out there in the woods, you know, uh, hunting turkeys, I presume themajority of people that listen to this.
(32:04):
Podcasts are probably doing that.
if their season has opened, at least I know some of them haven't yet.
Right.
Our friends at grounded brand wanted to support us.
And I know a lot of you out there want to support the podcast.
Yeah.
So if you're in that boat, go check out on their website.
(32:25):
They have an option for you to donate directly to the podcast to help us out, help us keepbringing you content.
And we really appreciate all the support and we are really appreciative that, you know,grounded brand stepped up to help us out as well.
Yeah.
If you add something to your cart and you go to checkout, it's right over there on theright side of your screen.
(32:46):
You're going to see options to do a one, five, $10 donation to wild turkey science.
also have a other button if you want to do a specific amount.
And they also have links for turkeys for tomorrow and NWTF there as well.
Yeah.
Great stuff.
Shout out to grounded brand.
We appreciate the support.
Yeah.
Appreciate it guys.
(33:11):
And I think another, another little point here to give is, you know, like a little tip forsome management advice is, um, you know, if you're, if you've got a property and you want
to monitor the population there, especially if you're changing things habitat wise, andyou want to see the response to that.
Um, I think it's a really good idea, you know, just go to the store and get one of theselittle pocket sized right in the rain notebooks.
(33:36):
And stick it in your Turkey vest with, you know, a pencil or a right in the rain pen orsomething like that.
And then just record how many individual goblers that you hear each morning that you goout to hunt on your property.
And then at the end of the season, you know, just go enter that in a, Excel spreadsheetand keep up with that for, you know, five, 10 years at least.
(33:57):
And then you can start seeing some trends.
Yeah, that's a good idea.
Type it into Excel.
There you go.
the
Yeah.
Well, you know, it, it definitely hurts not to bring bird home after all that.
(34:20):
Cause we got close.
I've been close to birds.
I've four birds now in inside of my four 10 range.
Right.
have none to show for it.
Uh, that's not true.
I wasn't shooter on one of those with my four 10 and that bird did die.
(34:43):
So I took a, a, a young woman.
was her first time on the Gator gobblers women's hunt.
Yeah.
But I was a guide for one of the young ladies and, and, we successfully brought home agobbler.
So that was with the same four 10.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
(35:04):
Well,
I've kind of been in the same situation.
I've had two in gun range and neither has died.
But one was that story I told last week about, you know, dad and it was his first Turkeyhunt.
So it's understandable.
Um, but yeah.
you know what, what I was realizing?
I wish that I could hunt every day.
I literally do.
(35:24):
would hunt every day, but I can't do that.
mean, you know, most people can't, uh, so if you're in a situation where you can, good foryou.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, most, I was thinking about it.
The majority of the times that I've been hunting, which I think I've been in the woods,maybe 10 or 12 times, I have been on the gun on, on, uh, three mornings and on two of
(35:55):
those mornings, the weather was bad.
And, you know, it just wasn't very good day to hunt.
Right.
Can't do anything about that.
Yeah.
So, but the other thing is we both care a lot about sharing this with others and tryingto, you know, continue to garner interest.
(36:19):
So I'm really happy that I've gotten to share the tree with a whole bunch of really, youknow, cool people that absolutely hang up with, and some of those people had never done
that at all.
Right.
right.
Trying to introduce new hunters and getting somebody their first bird.
That was pretty special.
So.
Absolutely.
I mean, that's the wonderful thing about turkey hunting for me.
(36:43):
uh you know, even on relatively slow mornings, I mean, if you're hunting with somebodythat, uh you know, you have a lot in common with and just enjoys being out in nature and
enjoys the bird and everything like that, you end up having a lot, even on slow mornings,you end up having what I call these golf conversations, you know.
(37:03):
where you're just strolling along and talking about this, talking about that,pontificating about what the turkeys are doing right now and why you're not hearing them
or why you're not getting close to them.
um It was the same way for me.
Last weekend at the lodge, Dave Donaldson and I were actually hunting together and he'sthe VP of Forest Operations for Westervelt.
(37:29):
It was really impactful getting a chance to get to know him better and talk with him.
Because know, know, Westervelt controls a huge land base.
So what they do on that land base definitely has a significant impact on turkeys.
And he wants to learn as much as he can and, you know, is always interested to hear whatwe have to say each year that we come out there and give those talks and things like that.
(37:52):
So he can think about how to better integrate turkeys into their forest management plan.
And consider, I'm seeing this more and more where you've got, you know, forestry companiesand foresters um that are being, that are, you know, making decisions about objectives
that are not just related to timber production.
(38:13):
You know, there's a lot of these other objectives that are starting to um become higherpriority on a lot of industrial forest land across the U S and I'm excited about that.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I think that's really important.
They're affecting a lot of land and also, you know, like, uh, for example, this onlinehabitat training that we're, would put together, you contributed to that.
(38:41):
we're about to launch.
We are offering continuing education credits for foresters for that reason.
There's so much interest and so much opportunity for impact.
Uh, you know, making that something that's
that's lucrative for folks that need continuing education for their you know their ownprofessional development and success ah anyway we can do that I'm you know really excited
(39:12):
I guess for for all the interest and trying to figure out ways to get more knowledge infront of people to you know to help them make good
decisions that benefit turkeys.
Right.
Um, you know, I think that's, that's a really cool thing.
Yeah.
(39:33):
Another example I'll give you is I'm going to speak next week.
Well, I guess it's this week that week, this episode airs, um, to a group of consultingforesters at the forest investment associates, um, annual conference in Atlanta.
And they specifically wanted me to talk about, you know, wildlife considerations andforest management, because they're seeing.
(39:54):
Increasingly that their clients, want the land that they're investing in managed for, uh,a diversity of objectives.
Yeah.
So wildlife are getting more and more consideration there.
Yep.
Well, that's a great opportunity to make a big impact.
it's, it's like you said, it's really awesome to see professionals across disciplines thathave a really big influence on, on land management.
(40:23):
Right.
You know, Vesti, the interests that they have in, in developing knowledge and applyingthat on the landscape.
Absolutely.
So I, was going to ask you, have not worked with West Reveille as closely as you,especially in, their land management decision-making, but I got the impression that they
(40:47):
are leaders in some different ways.
Yeah.
So do you.
Do you want to talk about any of those things, like some of the cool things that they areengaged in?
So, um, yeah, talking about leading, mean, one of the things that they've done with itthat they did recently that really impressed me is, um, you know, not long after the
(41:11):
shortly after the discovery of chronic wasting disease in Alabama, um, they decided to,uh, ban baiting and feeding on all of their lease timberland, you know, that
that, um, hunters can lease out.
And so I felt like that was very conservation minded and forward thinking.
Um, you know, not, not the most difficult.
(41:34):
Yeah.
was the politics and everything.
Right.
Yeah.
But I mean, kudos to hunters.
mean, they, they've, know, still had no problem leasing all their land, even with thatpolicy in place.
Um, I've also seen.
Um, as a company, they tend to, um, do some, you know, implement some forest managementpractices that are more wildlife friendly and extend the amount of the duration of usable
(42:02):
space throughout a pine rotation.
Um, so planning it a little bit planning, lower planning density in certain areas, um,leaving some wider road shoulders in certain areas.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Their roads were daylighted in a lot of areas.
Right.
Right.
And then they're, you know, they're using some fire on a timber company land.
(42:27):
Um, they're not burning all their acreage on a, on a standard return interval, but theyare burning some of it, you know, um, just depending on the site specific factors and a
variety of different things.
So, um, the other thing is they've always had a very, they've always had a very strong.
stable of biologists there as well.
(42:48):
mean, several, you know, several guys that I think they have like, I don't know, nine or10 biologists on staff.
Um, and many of those are guys that we have worked with or guys that Craig Harper hasworked with in graduate school.
And, um, these are guys that, really know their stuff and their outstanding habitatmanagement and outstanding managers of wildlife populations.
(43:09):
Yeah.
No, that's really cool.
And what I was going to add a minute ago.
You know, folks get, they get irritated or upset, uh, with land management on, you know,on lands like this or public lands or whatever.
And you know, what you have to keep in mind there, they still have to make money.
(43:33):
They're still, you know, uh, managing timber for timber production on that land.
And it's really impressive to see them.
make some decisions like they're like you were saying, they're not going to do thateverywhere.
They can't, they're, trying to make money off of the timber, but they are trying tointegrate it where it makes sense to benefit the resource, you know, wildlife.
(43:59):
So that's a pretty cool thing and forward thinking, and I'm glad to see it.
I'm hopeful that we will continue to see things like that develop in some of theseindustrial private lands in particular.
Yeah, I think so.
And one of the things that I'm most excited about that uh I've worked with them on that itwas actually their idea originally was to incorporate Turkey habitat considerations into
(44:23):
their harvest scheduler.
um So they don't have to apply that everywhere either, but on the places that they want toapply it, we're building that out right now.
And that's something that could potentially be replicated uh by other industrial privateforest owners or non-industrial private forest owners.
Um, so, you know, basically when you're evaluating whether or not to harvest a stand,considers things like, you know, court, like movement corridors, how much brooding covers
(44:52):
in the area, how much nesting covers in the area.
And it just, it's kind of got this, this hierarchy or this key that the GIS goes through.
And then it can make the determination of whether or not, you know, that's that standshould be harvested or at a minimum.
Notifies them.
Well, that if you harvest this stand, it's likely to affect Turkey habitat within thismanagement unit in this way.
(45:13):
So maybe they still make the call and they move forward with it, but they're at leastaware and knowledgeable about, you know, the downstream effects that that might have.
And yeah, like I said, I'm most excited that this is something that as we can refine andget a better understanding of going, going forward, maybe we can make that available to a
wider diversity of, of, uh users.
(45:34):
Yeah, that's a really cool thing.
I'm, I'm excited to see that develop and hear more about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I guess you got to get back on the road, huh?
Yeah.
I'm, uh, I'm in the middle of nowhere, Alabama right now.
(45:55):
I can see a corn silo that, uh, I can fill her up if I want to.
Yeah.
Now it has a sign saying come fill up.
Well, it sounds like it's got that.
And then it must have a cell tower because you've had pretty good reception, but maybe notmuch else.
Yeah.
I'm looking at a cell tower actually.
I just want to pick the spot.
(46:17):
Perfect.
I'm also actually looking at some pretty decent brooding cover.
It's set for the patch of Kogo and grasses taking hold.
Well, that was, you know, a little bit lighter on the science side of things in ourtypical episode, but we hope y'all will have a little bit of patience and understanding
with us, given that it is right in the middle of April right now.
(46:39):
Um, and, know, we've got some pretty hard hitting science coming to absolutely a couple ofthings coming.
Absolutely.
We've got, um, an interview, uh, with some folks, some of your folks, uh, coming up nextweek, um, down there in Florida.
So.
That'll be, I think that one's going to be pretty important, particularly for biologists.
(47:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that'll be really good for the hunting community to see where, you know, funding howit's being used to improve things for turkeys.
But, um, I think it has some real value because these folks have, have, uh, help puttogether a really
(47:24):
really powerful program that is getting a lot of good habitat on the ground for turkeys.
So yeah, they're going to talk about how they did that and how we might replicate thatelsewhere.
Right.
And we'll get to, I'm sure we'll get on the topic of Osceola's a little bit too.
So I'm looking forward to that.
Yeah, man.
We've got some good stuff coming on them.
(47:45):
Yeah.
Just waiting for the journals to say, except.
Cool.
Well, I hope the rest of your drive goes well.
Hope you drive safe and hopefully we'll maybe we'll get on one more hunt this year.
We get some time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That'd be cool.
(48:06):
I hope so.
All right.
Yeah.
Appreciate it everybody.
Thanks for listening.
We appreciate all the support, the comments.
Make sure you sign up for our.
our online habitat management course.
We should have it linked in the show notes for you.
And hope you go get you a bird, Yeah, me too.
(48:31):
Talk to you later.
Wild Turkey Science is part of the Natural Resources University podcast network and ismade possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow, a grassroots organization dedicated to the wild
turkey.
To learn more about TFT, check out turkeysfortomorrow.org.
Welcome to Wild Turkey Science, a podcast made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow.
I'm Dr.
Marcus Lashley, Professor of Wildlife Ecology at the University of Florida.
And I'm Dr.
Will Gulsby, Professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at Auburn University.
We're both lifelong hunters and devoted scientists who are passionate about hunting,managing, and researching wild turkeys.
(00:33):
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Please help us share it with anybody you think might be interested.
That's interesting.
So I ran five shells, including the one that malfunctioned and they all fired.
And then I ran.
(02:18):
box of seven and a half, 25 rounds.
I could not get it to miss fire again.
I don't know why.
I don't know what happened.
Well, mean, 30 shots.
mean, that's pretty good.
That's a pretty good lead in.
don't you go ahead and tell what led up to you shooting an entire box of shells throughyour four 10.
(02:39):
Well, I didn't intend for this to be on the air, but since we're here,
Well, I'm recording.
I get to, get to be the host that asks the uncomfortable questions today.
Oh, okay.
That's why we're going to do this.
uh I actually got to hit record today.
So that was exciting.
Yeah.
(03:01):
So we've been doing a lot of hunting and, I went hunting in North Mississippi with, withseveral folks.
In fact, some of the stuff I wanted to talk today about.
came from a discussion with me and Adam Butler, who we've had on the show.
He and I got to hunt a little bit together and, uh, we thought, I thought it'd be a goodidea to talk about some of those things.
(03:25):
Cause folks, folks have turkeys on their mind right now.
Right.
One could imagine.
so we, uh, me and a guy named Herne Foster that, got his masters at Mississippi stateuniversity.
No one in him since his graduate days, uh, he and I went out hunting together and got allover the birds.
(03:53):
main, you know, I will remind everybody I have started hunting with a four 10 and I havefor about a week, mainly used the wing bone and trumpets.
I've been trying not to use other stuff.
So
I've gotten quite, quite an interesting response from quite a few turkeys from that.
(04:18):
Um, I feel much more confident.
We'll just put it that way because I've been responding pretty positively to those calls.
But anyway, we, we, uh, got on a bird that we, had multiple choices and we picked this onebecause we thought we could get in really good position on him.
(04:38):
We were pretty sure he was by himself.
And he was gobbling, you know, just on fire.
And we went and got set up about 80 or 90 yards from him.
He's just over the crest of a hill in the Creek bottom.
When he struts to the right, um, you know, he's in this little area that he's struttingwhen he gets to the right side of the area, he's strutting in.
(05:02):
can see him through the woods.
When he goes to the left, he's hidden by the crest of the hill.
So.
You know, we're in these hardwoods.
If you go 50 yards up the hill, it turns transitions into open pine.
That's about 50 by basal area.
And it's been burned just recently.
(05:25):
So really good, you know, rolling hills, open pine with hardwood bottoms and the hardwoodsare mature and open.
So really nice, uh, set up.
We messed with the Turkey for about maybe 45 minutes or an hour.
That Turkey gobbled at everything.
(05:49):
A leaf fell off a tree and he's gone.
Yeah.
saw a squirrel over there, you know, and he starts barking the Turkey gobbles at that.
Yeah.
Every sound in the woods made the Turkey go, which made us feel really good.
(06:10):
Right.
Cause everything we did, he gobbled at it, but he would not commit to us.
He, he just, he wouldn't cross the creek.
So finally her and I put together a game plan.
So you showed him that fan, right?
no, no, we didn't have no decoys, no fans.
There was none that I was making a play on last week's episode.
(06:31):
Yeah.
Well, I, know, if somebody wouldn't want it to do that, I can understand.
That was a pretty frustrating Turkey because he just stayed where he was and wasn't goingto have us.
Even though he's alone, it's like eight 30 in the morning.
He's still goblin on fire and, uh, all by himself and won't come to us and the creek.
It's not like it's a, a 40 foot wide creek.
(06:53):
I'm talking about like a little ephemeral creek that you can just step in and step overit.
know, um, anyway, this bird's doing that.
So he and I put together a game plan that.
Uh, for that morning I was on, on the gun.
So her.
(07:14):
Took his, his slight call and play to run away hand on him.
So that was our game play.
And, ah so about every 15 or 20 yards, her and did a little soft yelp, like he's goingback up the hill and he ended up getting up maybe 80 to a hundred yards up the hill from
(07:34):
me.
The Turkey just lost his mind and he came in perfect.
So he comes walking into my right.
I'm pointed where I thought he was going to come out and he was a little right of that.
you're sitting here thinking this is too perfect.
Yeah.
Well, it looked like it was going to go past to me and I wasn't going to get a shotbecause I was in a root ball.
(07:57):
Oak that had fallen down.
Yeah.
And if he had kept going to my right, I wouldn't have been able to turn and her and hisway up the hill.
So he can't clean up either.
So, you know, at first I was like, no, that's what's going to happen.
And herns up there.
Meanwhile, eating popcorn, watching me with binoculars, you know, he's up there watchingall this go down and like, he's in the upper deck of the stadium.
(08:23):
And, anyway, this Turkey comes in and he's going to my right and I'm like, no.
But then he just turns and comes right up the hill and he walks right into my scope, 15yards standing there.
And I pulled the trigger and click.
um And I paused and I was like, what, what just happened?
(08:46):
You know, and everything's in slow motion now because I'm panicking and the turkeyspanicking and you shoot auto loader.
Yes.
So I thought, did I not load the gun?
No, I definitely loaded the gun.
And, know, I'm like going through this checklist, which is over the course of about aquarter of a second.
(09:08):
I've gone through a checklist and I was like, I loaded the gun.
know that the action was sealed.
I don't have any option here except to try to rack another shell.
And I'm going to do that before he gets out of here.
And remember there's that little crest of the hill.
So he doesn't have to go, but about five steps and then he's gone.
(09:31):
So I racked another shell and by the time I got it right, I could see maybe a foot, know,his head and down a foot.
So I could still shoot, but he was behind stuff and I could not get back on him.
Yeah.
And anyway, I'm just devastated.
(09:53):
I had a really special heart.
was a really amazing experience.
One of the most gobbling, uh, Turkey hunts that I've ever been on is just amazing.
And, uh, you know, Fort in with that was a bit anti-comatic if you might.
(10:14):
So like we did all of it right.
and got him into 15 yards and you know, we get a click and herns watching me through thebinoculars and he heard him put the Turkey ran in three different directions when he was
getting out of there at the same time.
don't even know how he did it.
(10:34):
You know, he looked like Fred Flintstones.
What I told him, he was running.
He ran three different directions and his head was still in the same place and he didn'teven move.
So it was just, know, whatever you.
I know exactly what you're talking about is the bad thing.
Yeah.
Well, you know, when you're panicked and every, like you're in that, you know, that, that,moment that it's just like stretched out and it's like that shutter speed and,
(11:05):
everything's so vivid during that.
Yeah.
I heard him said he was watching me through the binoculars and he couldn't see whathappened.
He thought the Turkey came to the right and saw me before because he knew I wasn't goingto be able to turn either.
Yeah.
But it was only cover in the woods.
There's only cover we could get to.
(11:25):
that's why I was sitting like that.
But, anyway, he said these watching me through the binoculars and he said for, for solidseveral seconds, I didn't move.
I just sat there.
And I can remember, you know, like what's going through my head.
I'm sitting there and I, uh, at first I was just frozen.
(11:47):
Like what just happened?
I cannot understand this.
And then he sees my hands kind of sprawl out to the sides of the tree, which I was like,you know, what happened?
And I literally had my hands out like at this belief.
And then it hit me that I threw a shell out.
I know I heard a click like what.
(12:08):
Let me find the shale.
So then he says, roll over and I look like I was digging around in the leaves and hecouldn't figure out what I'm doing, you know?
um And, I finally dig up the four 10 shale and it has, it has a dented primer where the,pin had hit it.
So we've, know, there's a bunch of us there hunting together and we went througheverything we could think of, you know, was the action not set was.
(12:38):
You know, this or that, and we've just, we didn't have any ideas.
And one of the guys said, well, mate, you know, the only time that's ever happened to me,I, uh, I had dropped a shale in the water when I was duck hunting.
And they said that when he shot that shale, he had some pen tails work in.
(13:00):
And when he shot that shale, the pellets just literally rolled out the end of the barrel.
Yeah.
And I was like,
You know, just like hit me real fast.
my God.
You remember the story about the Turkey last week that I hunted in the rain for fourhours.
that was our prevailing hypothesis.
(13:22):
Yeah.
And since then, because I don't want that to happen ever again.
Right.
Uh, also I know there's a bunch of folks out there, you know, uh, listening to this.
Uh, you know, like stuff like this happens and it's embarrassing, but here we are layingit out for the world to hear it, you know, uh, but I, I try to take great care and making
(13:54):
sure that stuff like that doesn't happen.
So, you know, uh, came home and I was with my dad and we were trying to go througheverything, figure out what is going on and.
I fired four more shells of my Turkey loads.
I then fired a box of 25, seven and a half and I fired the shell that I, that misfired.
(14:27):
all of them shot fine.
Wow.
30, 30 rounds through it and we could not get it to misfire again.
So I don't know what happened.
So if we have a.
gun expert out there that has ideas on what happened.
There was a pin mark in, you know, it was Denon and the shell didn't go off, but it didthe second time.
(14:50):
Yeah.
See, I wonder if during that, what during that rainy hunt, I wonder if your fire and pingot a little hung up and then that first shot, you got a light strike on that shell and
that loosened it up.
So all those subsequent shots, it was already loose and it was fine.
(15:16):
the right now the sun
We pulled one of the old school tricks on him to beat him.
(15:38):
And that was cool.
You know, enjoyed that, but obviously I'd like to take, him home with me.
Yeah.
Well, it seems to be that that's kind of way our luck is going this season for both of us.
uh Yeah.
We've I've been in and amongst a lot of birds.
Um, I've been all over man hit the ground yet.
(16:00):
And, uh, that's how it was last weekend at Westerville too.
And.
Um, I mean, that was a, that was a fun experience, even though we didn't get a bird on theground there either.
And, yeah, you want to tell everybody a little bit about, yeah, you know what we weredoing there and, and, uh, the history of that would be cool to unpack a little bit.
(16:23):
Yeah.
So, you know, disclaimer, we're not going to go deep on any science today.
Um, just because, you know, we've been trying to enjoy our turkey season the same as y'allhave.
So.
Well, we do have a little science that I think an anecdote from Adam Butler that, I thinkwould be worth us discussing.
Yeah.
That's very relevant to, to hunting.
Right.
(16:43):
We all are right now, but, um, yeah.
So this was my second year participating in that hunt at the Westerville lodge.
And for those of you that aren't aware of it, the Westerville lodge is in Pickens County,Alabama, which is, kind of West central Alabama near Aliceville.
If you want to look up the nearest town and.
I'm not exactly sure how long it's been going, but it's been a while.
(17:06):
um And to give you some context, know, Colonel Tom Kelly was, is undoubtedly the mostfamous instructor that has ever played a role in that, in that school and that program.
And he was the one that ran the program for the, I think the longest tenure of anybody,but you know, Ben Rogers Lee even helped out with it.
(17:31):
they're in certain years, in the past.
So the Westerbelt Lodge has been around a long time and it has an, has a long history ofbeing an outstanding place to Turkey hunt.
And each year, um, they have this Westerbelt Turkey school.
So they sell Turkey hunts on this property.
And during this particular weekend, hunters can, you know, buy a two day hunt, but it'snot just the hunt during the Westerbelt Turkey school as the name would suggest.
(17:58):
It's basically a program where you get to turkey hunt alongside knowledgeable guides.
And when we're not hunting, we spend the time, you know, we go out in the morning and thenwe spend the rest, uh, the rest of the late morning into the early afternoon talking about
how to turkey hunt.
um, like Terrence Williamson came in, you know, he's, he's won the grand national in the,uh, the friction category.
(18:27):
um, I think more than once, I know he has at least once Marcus, you may remember a littlebit better than I can, he's definitely, he's definitely won a lot of impressive.
Yes.
Yeah.
don't remember how many times he won that one, but it at least once and there was severalother things as well.
Yeah.
He's with rolling thunder calls now.
(18:47):
Um, and has, you know, worked with a lot of, you know, great, well known callmanufacturers in the past too.
Um,
Cause they dang sure didn't want you and I teaching the call in portion.
Well, you know, it's funny.
got the, person that went out with Terrence on the first day went out with me on thesecond day.
(19:09):
And I was like, Hey, now I don't want you to get any ideas that what you got with Terrenceis normal.
It's not going to sound like, but, mean, he's world-class, know, at one point,
It was funny because he said one time he's like, well, I'm not the best in the world atthis.
I was like, no, you're the best of the world.
(19:32):
You literally are.
not you then who?
Right.
Yeah.
But then, the lodge manager, Steven Carroll also helps, you know, teach a good bit of it.
And he talks a lot about, you know, strategy set up, you know, equipment that Turkeyhunters might want to use.
um
We go through various different scenarios.
(19:53):
Hunters get to pattern their guns.
get to learn how to estimate range.
Essentially it is a comprehensive kind of like our, our habitat Academy was, but insteadof focusing on habitat management for turkeys, it's just focused on hunting turkeys.
However, um, you know, Marcus and I did a little, a little segment, um, on Saturdayafternoon, um, talking about, you know, turkey biology, life history.
(20:19):
And how that plays into hunting and how that also plays into management because, you know,we want these guys, not only to become effective turkey takers, but effective turkey
makers, you know, too, when they leave this thing.
Um, and so, you know, we, gave a little presentation, do the Q and a session, um, just toclue these folks in on, you know, what's going on with turkeys and the challenges that
(20:44):
they're facing and how can we help them, you know, overcome some of those challenges.
Yeah.
So all in all, really, really good experience is something that I very much have grown toenjoy because, you know, I think I even commented on Terrence's Instagram page.
He made a post on it.
(21:06):
And uh I said, you know, that that place is definitely hallowed ground when it comes tothe wild turkey.
I mean, just you feel so honored to be there.
It's like you can almost feel the colonel's presence.
mean.
Um, one of the rooms in the lodge is the Colonel Tom Kelly room.
I've, you know, gotten to stay in that one before, and it just feels it's like hispresence is there, you know?
(21:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it's really cool.
Really awesome history and yeah, you know, really, really beautiful property.
It was fun to get to, go around, look at it and, and here's some turkeys gobble.
Yeah.
And the other fun thing about that is, you know, especially for me too, is, um, I've beenworking with.
with the Westervelt staff here for the past couple of years, helping them, you know, kindof fine tune some things across the lodge property.
(21:55):
and, know, I'm excited.
We're already seeing like a positive response in the habitat, a positive response from thebird population.
And my expectation is that in the next five years, um, that's only going to continue toget better.
In that being said, they, already have a very solid Turkey population.
Um, but we're going to.
(22:15):
We're trying our best to take it even further, you know, to the extreme of, of that, thatdensity that we could potentially achieve.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's good stuff.
Which kind of leads us up to what we kind of, what we were just about to about to say, uh,since you brought up density, I think that's a good segue for us to, to talk about that
(22:37):
song.
So I mentioned a few minutes ago that, that I had.
I got an opportunity to hunt with Adam Butler and, uh, you know, that was a lot of fun.
We got on a bird and he was hot and we gobbled and gobbled and he kind of started easingaway from us.
And we got on on X and worked out a plan and did a button hook on him, got in front of himand, uh, got him to about 70 yards and a hen showed up in between us.
(23:11):
She just popped out.
And he, course, uh, would rather have a real hand than us.
So he got with that hand and she led him back where we came from.
And, we never heard from him again.
sounds like that, huh?
And I had in South Carolina a couple of weekends ago.
Yeah.
(23:32):
Out hand.
So it was.
It was interesting though, because Adam and I were talking and of course, all kinds ofthings, you know, and he's super knowledgeable scientists and was the Turkey coordinator
for Mississippi for, for quite a few years.
And, you know, we were just kind of sharing knowledge and anecdotes and that sort of thingand talking science.
(23:54):
And he's like, you know, when, when I'm talking to people, I'm trying to get a feel forthe density on their land.
And he's like this.
This place that we're on, we've got a high density because we, we had heard at least eightindividual birds and potentially a ninth the morning before.
(24:15):
Uh, you know, me, can we pause right there for a second?
Yo.
So I have, I've, I've only had the pleasure of having a few hunts wherever heard that manybirds, you know, I've had a handful of places that I've gotten to hunt where.
They're just everywhere.
It's almost 360 degrees.
There's a good goblin bird.
(24:36):
You know, her, her and at one point on the first morning, they were really hot.
Yeah.
We were in the middle of birds.
They're all on the ground at seven 30 in the morning.
Yeah.
And we were in the middle of them and, he and I looked at each other and was like, I don'tknow what to do right now.
Well, that's what I was going to say is.
Every time it feels like almost every time I'm in that situation, I've learned from itnow.
(25:00):
And I like to think that I'm going to do better next time, but every occasion, I don'tknow about you, but every occasion where that, happens, I feel like as soon as a bird
shuts up for like three and a half minutes, I find myself going to another bird.
And what do you end up doing?
You're following the gobble.
(25:20):
You just keep chasing the gobble and you eat up with empty handed.
Cause you don't well there and work a bird long enough.
Yeah.
Well, and what we did, you know, we it's a good problem to have.
Yeah.
Her and I, so there might, we don't know what to do.
So what we did is we studied every bird and there were multiple ones that we thought itwas more than one bird together.
(25:46):
Right.
But
What we ended up doing is we picked the one we studied where all of them were in relationto where we were, what we thought that they might do.
And we picked the one that we thought we had the most advantage on because of where it wasand where we thought it would and where we could get to safely to pursue it.
(26:10):
We still came out of it.
Yeah.
We came out of it empty handed, but it was because of the misfire.
Right.
We otherwise did that.
Right.
But I think that.
That was a testament to when you get in that situation, you know, figure out the one thatis the best opportunity that gives you the biggest advantage and commit.
(26:33):
You know, that would be my advice under most situations at least.
Yeah.
Now if one just shuts up and you got another one that gobbles 300 times right over thehill, you know, it's hard not to pursue that.
And it's a lot easier to stay on a bird that's gobbling obviously.
So.
Right.
Uh, anyway, that, that's a remarkable morning.
(26:57):
You know, like hearing that many birds, I've, I remember hearing birds like that when Iwas a kid and I have not had that many.
Oh, it's like that sense.
Right.
So we, you know, we were discussing this because the next morning wasn't as good, but westill know.
(27:18):
that we heard at least four birds gobble and potentially a fifth, which is still notshabby.
Right.
We, we think the bird that we were on before that hand got to him, he gobbled at least 200times was what we decided.
Yeah.
Like, mean, if you're here, four or five birds, that's still pretty good.
I mean, if I'm in a listening spot and I can hear two or three, I mean, that's a goodmorning.
(27:43):
Yeah.
Well, that's what we were discussing is, and that's what.
You know, Adam came up with, uh, what he, you know, was describing to me.
So now we're back.
Right.
That it's like, you know, I work with a lot of landowners.
I've had my finger on the pulse of Mississippi's population for a long time.
(28:04):
And he's like, usually I start with that, with people and say, well, how many birds do younormally hear?
Not, not how many of you ever heard on the morning, like the best morning ever, but howmany do you think you hear on average?
And he said that most people will say one or two.
Right.
(28:24):
Right.
And that's like, and that, you know, you'd consider as a pretty good morning.
We heard bird gobble.
Good morning.
And he's like, you know, that that's kind of on that.
Low to average population.
Yeah.
Like obviously if you don't hear any or they're intermittent and you're kind of on the lowend.
(28:44):
Yeah.
As it said, but you know, if you're, if you're getting to.
two to four birds that you hear on average, your population's doing pretty good.
It's above average.
Right.
And then he was saying, you know, if, people were four to six, that's on the high end andanything above that, we would consider an excellent population density.
(29:11):
Yeah.
So I thought, I thought that would be a really good.
thing for people to think about when you're going out and listening and hunting.
Hopefully everybody's hearing six or eight, 10 birds at a time.
But, uh, you know, if you're hearing four or five, your population is probably in prettygood shape, but based on what, he was saying.
(29:38):
Yeah, I would totally agree with that.
And I think that that's especially useful considering that.
We really don't have a great way of indexing turkey populations that we've scientificallyvalidated other than, mean, know, gobble counts have been used to index turkey populations
for a long time.
And, you know, there's some assumptions in there that may not hold true in everycircumstance, but, you know, it can provide an index.
(30:05):
And what that means is that it's related to the population size, but it's not an exactmeasure of the population size.
So you would expect to hear more birds on average on a given morning as the populationincreases.
mean, that's pretty intuitive.
And it's not, like I said, a perfect estimator, but it can give you some idea.
(30:26):
Right.
And it's not a measure of how many gobbles you hear necessarily.
It's how many individual gobbles do you know that you heard?
Right.
So, and so a, example of why that index might not hold true is like, I know with, withquail, you know, we use Covey call counts.
And I think it's been proven with quail that the higher density you have, you actuallyhave more calling, not just because you have more birds, but because they're stimulating
(30:54):
each other to call.
And I imagine that the same thing happens with gobblers.
Right.
So I can vouch that that does happen.
It did have another, right.
Adam and I made note of that.
Um, the bird that we were on.
Every time we heard somebody else gobble, he gobbled at them.
(31:16):
responded every single one.
Exactly.
Whereas if you'd only had a couple of birds around, you know, there would not be as muchgobbling for him to respond to.
So yes, this non additive relationship where as you increase gobbler density, youexponentially increase, maybe not exponential, but there's a nonlinear.
(31:40):
that just means the line is curved.
Right.
As you increase density, increase gobbling faster.
Right.
So, I think, yeah, I think that's a, you know, a really good thing for folks to keep inmind.
And since you're all out there in the woods, you know, uh, hunting turkeys, I presume themajority of people that listen to this.
(32:04):
Podcasts are probably doing that.
if their season has opened, at least I know some of them haven't yet.
Right.
Our friends at grounded brand wanted to support us.
And I know a lot of you out there want to support the podcast.
Yeah.
So if you're in that boat, go check out on their website.
(32:25):
They have an option for you to donate directly to the podcast to help us out, help us keepbringing you content.
And we really appreciate all the support and we are really appreciative that, you know,grounded brand stepped up to help us out as well.
Yeah.
If you add something to your cart and you go to checkout, it's right over there on theright side of your screen.
(32:46):
You're going to see options to do a one, five, $10 donation to wild turkey science.
also have a other button if you want to do a specific amount.
And they also have links for turkeys for tomorrow and NWTF there as well.
Yeah.
Great stuff.
Shout out to grounded brand.
We appreciate the support.
Yeah.
Appreciate it guys.
(33:11):
And I think another, another little point here to give is, you know, like a little tip forsome management advice is, um, you know, if you're, if you've got a property and you want
to monitor the population there, especially if you're changing things habitat wise, andyou want to see the response to that.
Um, I think it's a really good idea, you know, just go to the store and get one of theselittle pocket sized right in the rain notebooks.
(33:36):
And stick it in your Turkey vest with, you know, a pencil or a right in the rain pen orsomething like that.
And then just record how many individual goblers that you hear each morning that you goout to hunt on your property.
And then at the end of the season, you know, just go enter that in a, Excel spreadsheetand keep up with that for, you know, five, 10 years at least.
(33:57):
And then you can start seeing some trends.
Yeah, that's a good idea.
Type it into Excel.
There you go.
the
Yeah.
Well, you know, it, it definitely hurts not to bring bird home after all that.
(34:20):
Cause we got close.
I've been close to birds.
I've four birds now in inside of my four 10 range.
Right.
have none to show for it.
Uh, that's not true.
I wasn't shooter on one of those with my four 10 and that bird did die.
(34:43):
So I took a, a, a young woman.
was her first time on the Gator gobblers women's hunt.
Yeah.
But I was a guide for one of the young ladies and, and, we successfully brought home agobbler.
So that was with the same four 10.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
(35:04):
Well,
I've kind of been in the same situation.
I've had two in gun range and neither has died.
But one was that story I told last week about, you know, dad and it was his first Turkeyhunt.
So it's understandable.
Um, but yeah.
you know what, what I was realizing?
I wish that I could hunt every day.
I literally do.
(35:24):
would hunt every day, but I can't do that.
mean, you know, most people can't, uh, so if you're in a situation where you can, good foryou.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, most, I was thinking about it.
The majority of the times that I've been hunting, which I think I've been in the woods,maybe 10 or 12 times, I have been on the gun on, on, uh, three mornings and on two of
(35:55):
those mornings, the weather was bad.
And, you know, it just wasn't very good day to hunt.
Right.
Can't do anything about that.
Yeah.
So, but the other thing is we both care a lot about sharing this with others and tryingto, you know, continue to garner interest.
(36:19):
So I'm really happy that I've gotten to share the tree with a whole bunch of really, youknow, cool people that absolutely hang up with, and some of those people had never done
that at all.
Right.
right.
Trying to introduce new hunters and getting somebody their first bird.
That was pretty special.
So.
Absolutely.
I mean, that's the wonderful thing about turkey hunting for me.
(36:43):
uh you know, even on relatively slow mornings, I mean, if you're hunting with somebodythat, uh you know, you have a lot in common with and just enjoys being out in nature and
enjoys the bird and everything like that, you end up having a lot, even on slow mornings,you end up having what I call these golf conversations, you know.
(37:03):
where you're just strolling along and talking about this, talking about that,pontificating about what the turkeys are doing right now and why you're not hearing them
or why you're not getting close to them.
um It was the same way for me.
Last weekend at the lodge, Dave Donaldson and I were actually hunting together and he'sthe VP of Forest Operations for Westervelt.
(37:29):
It was really impactful getting a chance to get to know him better and talk with him.
Because know, know, Westervelt controls a huge land base.
So what they do on that land base definitely has a significant impact on turkeys.
And he wants to learn as much as he can and, you know, is always interested to hear whatwe have to say each year that we come out there and give those talks and things like that.
(37:52):
So he can think about how to better integrate turkeys into their forest management plan.
And consider, I'm seeing this more and more where you've got, you know, forestry companiesand foresters um that are being, that are, you know, making decisions about objectives
that are not just related to timber production.
(38:13):
You know, there's a lot of these other objectives that are starting to um become higherpriority on a lot of industrial forest land across the U S and I'm excited about that.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I think that's really important.
They're affecting a lot of land and also, you know, like, uh, for example, this onlinehabitat training that we're, would put together, you contributed to that.
(38:41):
we're about to launch.
We are offering continuing education credits for foresters for that reason.
There's so much interest and so much opportunity for impact.
Uh, you know, making that something that's
that's lucrative for folks that need continuing education for their you know their ownprofessional development and success ah anyway we can do that I'm you know really excited
(39:12):
I guess for for all the interest and trying to figure out ways to get more knowledge infront of people to you know to help them make good
decisions that benefit turkeys.
Right.
Um, you know, I think that's, that's a really cool thing.
Yeah.
(39:33):
Another example I'll give you is I'm going to speak next week.
Well, I guess it's this week that week, this episode airs, um, to a group of consultingforesters at the forest investment associates, um, annual conference in Atlanta.
And they specifically wanted me to talk about, you know, wildlife considerations andforest management, because they're seeing.
(39:54):
Increasingly that their clients, want the land that they're investing in managed for, uh,a diversity of objectives.
Yeah.
So wildlife are getting more and more consideration there.
Yep.
Well, that's a great opportunity to make a big impact.
it's, it's like you said, it's really awesome to see professionals across disciplines thathave a really big influence on, on land management.
(40:23):
Right.
You know, Vesti, the interests that they have in, in developing knowledge and applyingthat on the landscape.
Absolutely.
So I, was going to ask you, have not worked with West Reveille as closely as you,especially in, their land management decision-making, but I got the impression that they
(40:47):
are leaders in some different ways.
Yeah.
So do you.
Do you want to talk about any of those things, like some of the cool things that they areengaged in?
So, um, yeah, talking about leading, mean, one of the things that they've done with itthat they did recently that really impressed me is, um, you know, not long after the
(41:11):
shortly after the discovery of chronic wasting disease in Alabama, um, they decided to,uh, ban baiting and feeding on all of their lease timberland, you know, that
that, um, hunters can lease out.
And so I felt like that was very conservation minded and forward thinking.
Um, you know, not, not the most difficult.
(41:34):
Yeah.
was the politics and everything.
Right.
Yeah.
But I mean, kudos to hunters.
mean, they, they've, know, still had no problem leasing all their land, even with thatpolicy in place.
Um, I've also seen.
Um, as a company, they tend to, um, do some, you know, implement some forest managementpractices that are more wildlife friendly and extend the amount of the duration of usable
(42:02):
space throughout a pine rotation.
Um, so planning it a little bit planning, lower planning density in certain areas, um,leaving some wider road shoulders in certain areas.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Their roads were daylighted in a lot of areas.
Right.
Right.
And then they're, you know, they're using some fire on a timber company land.
(42:27):
Um, they're not burning all their acreage on a, on a standard return interval, but theyare burning some of it, you know, um, just depending on the site specific factors and a
variety of different things.
So, um, the other thing is they've always had a very, they've always had a very strong.
stable of biologists there as well.
(42:48):
mean, several, you know, several guys that I think they have like, I don't know, nine or10 biologists on staff.
Um, and many of those are guys that we have worked with or guys that Craig Harper hasworked with in graduate school.
And, um, these are guys that, really know their stuff and their outstanding habitatmanagement and outstanding managers of wildlife populations.
(43:09):
Yeah.
No, that's really cool.
And what I was going to add a minute ago.
You know, folks get, they get irritated or upset, uh, with land management on, you know,on lands like this or public lands or whatever.
And you know, what you have to keep in mind there, they still have to make money.
(43:33):
They're still, you know, uh, managing timber for timber production on that land.
And it's really impressive to see them.
make some decisions like they're like you were saying, they're not going to do thateverywhere.
They can't, they're, trying to make money off of the timber, but they are trying tointegrate it where it makes sense to benefit the resource, you know, wildlife.
(43:59):
So that's a pretty cool thing and forward thinking, and I'm glad to see it.
I'm hopeful that we will continue to see things like that develop in some of theseindustrial private lands in particular.
Yeah, I think so.
And one of the things that I'm most excited about that uh I've worked with them on that itwas actually their idea originally was to incorporate Turkey habitat considerations into
(44:23):
their harvest scheduler.
um So they don't have to apply that everywhere either, but on the places that they want toapply it, we're building that out right now.
And that's something that could potentially be replicated uh by other industrial privateforest owners or non-industrial private forest owners.
Um, so, you know, basically when you're evaluating whether or not to harvest a stand,considers things like, you know, court, like movement corridors, how much brooding covers
(44:52):
in the area, how much nesting covers in the area.
And it just, it's kind of got this, this hierarchy or this key that the GIS goes through.
And then it can make the determination of whether or not, you know, that's that standshould be harvested or at a minimum.
Notifies them.
Well, that if you harvest this stand, it's likely to affect Turkey habitat within thismanagement unit in this way.
(45:13):
So maybe they still make the call and they move forward with it, but they're at leastaware and knowledgeable about, you know, the downstream effects that that might have.
And yeah, like I said, I'm most excited that this is something that as we can refine andget a better understanding of going, going forward, maybe we can make that available to a
wider diversity of, of, uh users.
(45:34):
Yeah, that's a really cool thing.
I'm, I'm excited to see that develop and hear more about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I guess you got to get back on the road, huh?
Yeah.
I'm, uh, I'm in the middle of nowhere, Alabama right now.
(45:55):
I can see a corn silo that, uh, I can fill her up if I want to.
Yeah.
Now it has a sign saying come fill up.
Well, it sounds like it's got that.
And then it must have a cell tower because you've had pretty good reception, but maybe notmuch else.
Yeah.
I'm looking at a cell tower actually.
I just want to pick the spot.
(46:17):
Perfect.
I'm also actually looking at some pretty decent brooding cover.
It's set for the patch of Kogo and grasses taking hold.
Well, that was, you know, a little bit lighter on the science side of things in ourtypical episode, but we hope y'all will have a little bit of patience and understanding
with us, given that it is right in the middle of April right now.
(46:39):
Um, and, know, we've got some pretty hard hitting science coming to absolutely a couple ofthings coming.
Absolutely.
We've got, um, an interview, uh, with some folks, some of your folks, uh, coming up nextweek, um, down there in Florida.
So.
That'll be, I think that one's going to be pretty important, particularly for biologists.
(47:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that'll be really good for the hunting community to see where, you know, funding howit's being used to improve things for turkeys.
But, um, I think it has some real value because these folks have, have, uh, help puttogether a really
(47:24):
really powerful program that is getting a lot of good habitat on the ground for turkeys.
So yeah, they're going to talk about how they did that and how we might replicate thatelsewhere.
Right.
And we'll get to, I'm sure we'll get on the topic of Osceola's a little bit too.
So I'm looking forward to that.
Yeah, man.
We've got some good stuff coming on them.
(47:45):
Yeah.
Just waiting for the journals to say, except.
Cool.
Well, I hope the rest of your drive goes well.
Hope you drive safe and hopefully we'll maybe we'll get on one more hunt this year.
We get some time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That'd be cool.
(48:06):
I hope so.
All right.
Yeah.
Appreciate it everybody.
Thanks for listening.
We appreciate all the support, the comments.
Make sure you sign up for our.
our online habitat management course.
We should have it linked in the show notes for you.
And hope you go get you a bird, Yeah, me too.
(48:31):
Talk to you later.
Wild Turkey Science is part of the Natural Resources University podcast network and ismade possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow, a grassroots organization dedicated to the wild
turkey.
To learn more about TFT, check out turkeysfortomorrow.org.
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