June 30, 2025 • 64 mins
Today’s conversation offers a unique window into the intricate world of poults. We are joined by Eva Noroski, Field Coordinator for the UF Game Lab, as she shares insights into poult development, growth rates, behavior, vocalization, social dynamics, social bonding, and more.
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Eva Noroski @eva_noroski, Contact
Dr. Marcus Lashley @DrDisturbance, Publications
Dr. Will Gulsby @dr_will_gulsby, Publications
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Wild Turkey Science, a podcast made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow.
(00:14):
I'm Dr. Marcus Lashley, Professor of Wildlife Ecology at the University of Florida.
And I'm Dr. Will Goolsby, Professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at Auburn University.
We're both lifelong hunters and devoted scientists who are passionate about hunting, managing,
and researching wild turkeys.
In this podcast, we'll explore turkey research, speak to the experts in the field, and address
(00:39):
the difficult questions related to wild turkey ecology and management.
Our goal is to serve as your connection to wild turkey science.
Well, here we are again, ready to talk about some poults.
(01:00):
So, Ava, we are glad to have you on the show.
I think your name has been mentioned in several different contexts, but you are the field
coordinator overseeing the field work with the poult facility, so we thought it would
be really valuable to have you on and give you an opportunity to tell people other things
(01:25):
about that.
I know we've covered some things, but folks are messaging us a lot, telling us they want
to hear more and more and more about it.
And I can understand why they feel that way, because that's the way I feel about it.
And I think it's fun to talk about all the cool things that are going on, and things
are changing fast, so we should have plenty of opportunity to do that.
(01:49):
So thanks for coming to talk to us about that.
I know you have just met Will, so maybe I'll turn it over to Will and let you start.
How do you like Will?
Yeah, thanks for coming on, Ava.
Again, nice to meet you.
From talking to Marcus, I understand that you were involved in other similar types of
(02:12):
bird research before coming to the poult facility, so I wanted to start out by asking, how did
you get qualified to come be the field manager on this project?
Yeah, I have had so many different experiences in so many different areas.
So I've worked in Montana on songbird radio tracking study, but probably the most, as
(02:35):
well as radio tracking of kestrels in Florida too.
So that relates to our trapping season.
But when it comes to poults specifically and rearing them, I was an intern at the National
Aviary in Pittsburgh, and I had this unique opportunity to shadow the breeding center
leader.
And she essentially is a absolute expert in the aspect of specifically monitoring eggs
(03:00):
and kind of creating the perfect scenario for them to be able to be successful.
And so by watching her and how intense that she was in monitoring their humidity and what
they're doing inside of the egg and candling super frequently, we were able to kind of
come up with this perfect system of what are our milestones for the wild turkey egg and
(03:21):
when do we need to change our settings and how quickly do we need to act on these things
and how sensitive is that overall process.
So I was able to watch her closely and see all of those specific insights that we should
be paying attention to, and that really prepared me to get these wild eggs from wild scenarios
and get them into our incubators.
(03:43):
That's really cool.
And Marcus, you're really fortunate to find somebody with that skill set.
I know.
I mean, golly, talk about one in a million.
But before we start talking about turkeys, Ava, do you have any cool stories or highlights
you would want to share from your time working at the aviary?
Sure.
Or like maybe something that was just, you know, what you enjoyed the most or you found
(04:05):
fascinating during that experience?
Yeah.
I mean, taking it back to egg specifically, something I find so fascinating is how perfectly
every single thing has to work out.
You know, not only do you need to have a fertilized egg, but that needs to be shelf stable at
first and then you've got to trigger incubation.
And then once that has begun, that has to be consistent for, you know, 28 days or however
(04:31):
long that cycle is.
And it's just incredible to be able to watch them go from an orange yolk versus the rest
of the yellow fluid in the egg to becoming an embryo that undulates in the egg and then
the vessel is growing and then suddenly you can see turkey feet in there.
But what I learned so amazingly from Bree Crane at the aviary is that every single part
(04:55):
of that aspect, every single part of that process is so sensitive.
And if the bird is not perfectly positioned, if it doesn't absorb the yolk completely,
if there's not enough moisture in the air during hatching, if the head doesn't pip
into the internal air cell and then be able to access the outside air, the probability
(05:15):
of that egg hatching will significantly decrease.
So it's just incredible how sensitive it is.
And I was able to see, I don't know if I can talk about it specifically, but just exotic
eggs that have never been hatched by anybody else in a controlled setting.
So being able to see some of those was really insightful and applicable to this scenario.
(05:38):
But also relating to that, I mean, when you work in an aviary setting with so many different
species of birds, you not only see how they're different between species, but how certain
individuals have personalities.
And that obviously has applied to our poults as well.
I feel like I know them so well and our bond has matured over time.
You know, we now have birds that are three days old and my eldest birds are 55 days old
(06:03):
now.
So it's really incredible how every individual has a personality.
And you can see that in every bird that you meet as you go through your career.
That's super cool.
We don't have to go into great detail on it, but this is something that I'm just now learning
about that I find really intriguing, which is that incubation is triggered.
(06:26):
And can you maybe real briefly talk about how is the egg different before versus after
onset of incubation and what happens?
What physically changes?
So I know Marcus has already touched base on this in previous podcasts, I think.
So the hen will essentially, all of those eggs until she's ready to incubate are shelf
stable.
(06:47):
And she'll come and sit for a few hours to ensure that they remain fertile, but it isn't
until that first day of incubation that she allows them to start developing.
And then everything after that is incredibly crucial.
So what's so cool about the turkeys is the fact that they can be shelf stable for a certain
amount of time.
(07:07):
And then after that point in time, you know, they just become increasingly more sensitive
to any variation in their care.
So of course the humidity is one of those aspects that's very crucial.
If it's too humid, they're not losing enough moisture quick enough and that will affect
their ability to absorb the yolk.
If it's too dry, they're losing too much moisture and that also affects their ability to obtain
(07:32):
nutrients.
And what is so interesting, we might be able to reveal in our egg monitoring information
is that if these eggs have gone through major interruptions, is that possibly affecting
the long-term outcome and success of that poult?
All of those minute things can be so significant when it comes to the amount of nutrients that
(07:53):
you can absorb in the egg and how consistent your development is in the egg to your life
outside the egg.
Man, it just keeps stimulating more and more questions that I have, but I know we need
to get to the meat and potatoes of this.
Yeah, I know.
I think we have such little information on that process, like we know that getting disrupted
(08:15):
messes it up, but does that happen when she gets bumped off of a nest because a predator
came by or somebody mowed through or how much is that affecting things and you don't really
even realize it because she may not abandon the nest, but still have problems because
of the incubation process being interrupted.
(08:37):
Yeah, or how do recess activities affect it?
That's something that came to mind for me.
It's certainly, I could see where that could matter, especially if you get them into a
situation where they start recessing abnormally.
Right.
Super interesting.
Yeah.
Well, one thing that came to mind for me, Ava, and I don't know Ralph off the top of
(09:02):
my head because I'm not staying in touch with the data like you are, you said that the oldest
poles are 55 days old.
How big are they?
Our biggest male is now decently over 800 grams.
So 800 grams is 1.8 pounds.
(09:26):
Isn't that wild?
You can barely hold him in two hands.
So our biggest bird is 838 grams and the next in line in terms of size and possible dominance
ranking is only 695.
So it's 25% bigger.
Wow.
He's an absolute beast.
And then we also have a really interesting bird who creates such a interesting data set,
(09:50):
which is Rocky.
He kind of went through this period of being stunted during the study trial and so we take
extra good care of him.
But because of that, he is only a quarter of the size of some of these birds and he's
only 188 grams.
So it's really incredible how either how rapidly they can grow or how stunted they can be and
(10:11):
the fact that both of those birds are successful and have made it to this point in time in
their own way.
Some of them need a lot of help and some of them are just absolute beasts.
That is an incredible variation, just like the two biggest ones, even the difference
(10:31):
in those two, that's still tremendous.
Right.
Yeah.
That's Night versus the biggest bird from my group who I call Yellow Bird.
And then it looks like the rest of our birds in that age range are between 400 and 600.
So when you compare it to even the rest of them, it's quite substantial.
(10:52):
So Night is twice the size of the average from the brood, the clutch.
Is that what you just said?
Did I do that math right?
Yeah.
That looks about right.
Wow.
Wow.
That Night is a beast.
Yeah.
(11:12):
He is.
And surprisingly, he's pretty friendly.
But just yesterday, this was so interesting to witness.
Their rates of displaying to each other has decreased over time because these same birds
have been in the same group for a month or so now.
And so they don't really have this need to continue to work out their social hierarchy.
(11:32):
But yesterday happened to be in there and Yellow Bird and Night had a big fight.
And I'm not sure that Yellow Bird made any gains there.
But looking at their size difference, that is just shocking that he would even dare challenge
Night.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yellow Bird, I think is, you know, it's like dynamite.
Big boom in a small package, he's worth it to Night.
(11:56):
He's pretty personable.
Yeah.
I actually, last time I was in there, it was Yellow Bird.
I'm pretty sure that I got footage and I just was enamored at that point.
He was around six weeks old.
But maybe you were in there with me and you confirmed that's who it was.
(12:17):
Yeah.
When I walked around the, you know, the edge of the divider in the middle of the enclosure,
Yellow Bird was strutting and you could see some of the adult feathers, those middle retrices
had already emerged.
And I was just like, whoa, that's the first time I've seen that.
(12:38):
So, you know, I've got a little bit of footage of it, but yeah, it is kind of, well, you
said several things that were interesting.
One, they've started, you've noticed they decreased their displaying, but they're that
far apart and Yellow Bird is still trying, I would say.
(13:00):
Right.
And then immediately after that, it seemed to have enticed my Lime Bird to strut and
he just was going nonstop to anyone that would give him the time of day to see as well.
We've got a lot of great footage of him being silly.
(13:21):
So I'm curious, is there anything that you've noticed in Knight's behavior that would explain
why he's so much bigger than everybody else?
You know, I actually don't have a lot of unique observations about him that would explain
why he has become absolutely massive.
Yeah.
But something that I think is so interesting that we may be able to, and we should be able
(13:45):
to kind of reveal these trends is, you know, does their degree of boldness correlate to
their size?
And what I've noticed is that this has, this can shift and change over time.
So taking it back to when I was doing my study trial with my study brood, I had this one
(14:05):
bird who I'm very confident she's a hen.
She had a spiral poop.
Her picture has been featured a couple of times for that iconic poop.
But I've also seen her strut.
So I always perceived her as this dominant hen in that group of five, and she was heavier
than the other suspected hen in my group.
But as soon as she was introduced to this larger group of graduated birds, she immediately
(14:28):
became very hesitant and shy.
She was never particularly close with me.
She still avoids people, but I've noticed that she also avoids the birds.
She's one of the few to rush in for the morning breakfast frenzy.
And I can see that reflected in her size.
She is one of the smallest in the group, despite being among the oldest hatched birds.
(14:52):
And you can kind of see, it's just incredible to know that she went from being bigger than
the lesser dominant hen to being one of the smallest hens in the group because she's not
as bold.
She's a bit more timid and that has affected her.
So I wonder, as Night continues to be bigger and bigger and bolder and bolder, nobody's
(15:14):
going to challenge him.
He's going to stand in the middle of the food dish.
He's always going to have that extra edge to get that much more food and continue growing.
Yeah, sort of like a positive feedback that's going to cause him to get more and more bigger
than everybody else or one more different.
You stimulated a thought for me as well, and maybe you remember, because I know that you
(15:35):
have really intimate relationships with all the birds because you're out there constantly.
One thing that was striking to me is I had the bird Blueberry, and Blueberry was the
smallest in every weight measurement through the whole time.
(15:56):
But I noticed, I think it was the second one after, so they'd been in, you know, out of
their trials, graduated for about two weeks or about a month old.
The second one, I noticed when you sent me the measurements that Blueberry was now the
biggest out of my brood and had been the smallest for all that time.
(16:16):
And then after two weeks of being in that new context was now all of a sudden weighing
more than everybody else.
So I don't know if that was a change in behavior or effectiveness as a forager or what, but
I just, that stuck in my head like, wow, I was not expecting Blueberry to be the biggest.
Yeah.
(16:37):
And I think the fact that they now live in very consistent conditions, they're not necessarily
out in those foraging plots.
They're primarily relying on our ecological food every day.
It should lean towards, you know, behavioral aspects impacting that maybe not so much foraging
because they don't have the same level of opportunity to forage a large population of,
(17:01):
you know, bugs that are hopping in there.
They're going to deplete that very quickly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
So on average, when a poult first hatches, do you know about what, in my head it's about
50 grams, but what on average has been their size when, right when they hatch?
(17:25):
Yeah.
It's usually between 50 and 60 grams or the higher end of, you know, 48, 49.
Okay.
So let's see, 50 grams.
So night is not quite 20 times the size of at 50 something days.
(17:48):
That's crazy to me.
Yeah.
And their transformations are so rapid and so intense.
You know, it's not just a bird going from getting larger in size and putting on muscle
masses that they're, you know, changing and molting every single feather on their body
rapidly, you know, going from those tiny hair like down feathers to having, you know, flight
(18:10):
feathers and then replacing those as they get even bigger, you know, all of their limbs
are growing.
It's, it's like having a toddler who sleeps and eats and cries.
And then two weeks later, they're climbing a tree.
It's so impressive how they can just jump like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is remarkable.
(18:30):
You know, we've been talking about night a lot, so I did have another question that is
related to our conversation.
Was he always the biggest?
Was he biggest out of the egg or did it change at some point?
And if so, when?
Let me check real quick and then answer that because I have the data.
(18:54):
So for the audience and Will, we do have measurements basically from that time that they were in
the egg all the way till now.
We've had really detailed growth information on every individual.
Yeah.
I wonder if even his egg was bigger.
Yeah.
I can't tell you the exact weight of his egg, but what I can tell you is that he certainly
(19:17):
was not our heaviest hatched poult.
That was a big foot.
So he night hatched at 56 grams when he dried off.
And there were birds that we suspect are hens that, you know, were 60 grams.
So he didn't necessarily have that immediate leg up on anyone.
(19:41):
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
But at some point he turned on the growth factor and just started running away with
it.
Yeah.
He certainly was a notorious strutter.
I recall, obviously we have so many videos of him and Yellowbird, you know, facing off.
So that may have, you know, paid off for him in the end because he just never gave up,
(20:07):
you know.
So that footage that we have shared of the two poults that were, I think you were, it
was your plot.
Is that those two birds?
The five day old birds that are in the plot, those, that was my Yellowbird and my Limebird.
But we also have footage that everyone has seen of specifically night strutting as well.
(20:28):
Yeah.
So interesting.
The growth rate on these things, man.
I'm still just thinking about what she said a second ago, the notorious strutter.
I think that could be our new rap band name, Marcus.
That's a good one.
The Notorious Strutters.
We should title this podcast episode, The Notorious Strutter.
(20:50):
And it's so crazy how, like, now when you go and see night, it stands out.
Every single person who walks into that enclosure with those birds, it points out him specifically.
So at this point, it's just crazy how he surpassed everyone.
But way back when, when he was such a notorious strutter, you couldn't necessarily tell him
apart from the others.
(21:12):
Yeah.
That's funny.
I don't know if Will realizes it, but Will pointed out night whenever he walked into
the enclosure.
Did I really?
Look at that bird.
Did I really?
Yes.
We can't miss him.
That was the one you pointed at first.
That was, I think I remember being confused about how many age classes were in that pen
(21:33):
because he was like in a league of his own.
Yeah.
He was so much bigger.
And I said, no, that is our biggest one.
Yeah.
That's funny.
I was a little bit worried when, when Ava said that, that I had missed night and I hadn't
pointed him out.
And I'm like, so unobservant.
The first thing you did, but confused it's so big, you know, uh, I don't know if we're
(21:59):
ready to go to this part of the conversation yet, but I think there's also some consequences
coming with that.
I think night was also one of them that started balding first.
I know several of them had been balding, but I was, well, it may be yellow bird that I'm
thinking of, but I would, I think it was one of those that I noticed it on myself first.
(22:21):
Yeah.
It's so funny to see, but when I saw it for myself, it was one of those too.
I'm pretty sure.
Yeah.
And I could notice it a little bit when I was there the other week and it's hilarious
looking.
It's so funny.
It's definitely in their appearance, their awkward teenage phase, as well as their personalities.
I would say our most notorious balding bird is my line bird.
(22:46):
He was first to start losing feathers on the back of his head and I thought something was
was wrong with him.
And then I realized, but yeah, there's, there's still so cute.
Yellow bird is balding in the front now.
So yeah, I'm not sure there's any correlation between, you know, how dominant they are or
necessarily how big they are.
(23:06):
Maybe it's just an individual.
Yeah.
I was thinking maybe it just the males are first or.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't have any, nothing stands out to me as far as the hens losing any head feathers.
So when you said that, do you mean that the hens haven't started doing that or you haven't
(23:26):
noticed anything different from the males?
I don't have any memories of hens balding.
So I think they might not really be doing it to the, as rapidly as suspected males.
Okay.
That's interesting.
The males all first checks out.
Yeah.
(23:46):
For folks that are listening, take a minute and go watch this because it is hilarious.
Yeah.
The footage of them balding, you know, we'll say that's the awkward phase is hilarious.
Cause I think about, you know, everybody, I feel like has a, has a story about having
a bad haircut around the time you're in middle school and that's like where they are right
(24:09):
now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also with their personalities Marcus, you did a great job at making this exact noise,
but there they have this don't touch me noise.
Like I'll stand next to you, mom, and we can hang out, but don't try to pet me.
And they use it every single time.
I think it's so funny how they'll want to come hang out, but you got to keep your respectful
(24:31):
distance because they don't want to cuddle you.
They'll communicate that they're super clear with their communication, which I find to
be super impressive.
Well, a question related to that, but also the balding, what, at what age did you start
noticing the balding do you remember?
Oh goodness.
(24:52):
It was several weeks ago, so maybe one and a half months old.
Okay.
So you think some, somewhere in the four to six week range probably.
Yeah.
And that also would correlate with like, you know, they can thermoregulate on their own.
They're up on the purchase at night independently.
(25:13):
It's kind of like a developmental milestone.
It seems one thing I was actually, I recorded, did these little selfie recordings every day
while I was out there just because I knew I'd see things and reflect on it right then
and forget it.
But one of the things that I noted in one of them that I listened to that I had forgotten
(25:37):
was that overnight their voices started changing.
Like I could hear that they were no longer, they no longer had the little classic peep,
you know, it started becoming more like a, whatever that sound is called that birders
do.
(25:58):
But you started hearing that, that a hoarseness in their peeping and stuff.
So is that when you were talking about the, their communication, have you seen some sort
of progression in their voice changing like that?
Yeah.
They certainly use certain noises more now than they did in the past.
(26:21):
There are certain things they've just completely stopped using.
Like I haven't seen them use the lost call in the longest time, I think because they're
pretty confident and comfortable where they are.
They don't need me every single moment of the day.
So that's something they don't do anymore.
They started doing what I call a little clocking noise.
I think it might have a different terminology for people who hunt and kind of know the names
(26:43):
of the calls a bit better.
But they started doing that at a pretty significant-
So is that just like an abrupt, you're talking about just like an abrupt single note?
Yeah.
It's-
I'm just dying to ask y'all to make, to recreate these sounds.
I wish I, I wish I could, but yeah, it's pretty much sounds like a clock.
(27:03):
Some people have told me it sounds similar to their yelping noise.
But what I've noticed is that, you know, they're always content.
So they're always trilling.
That's something that they've carried over from their time as little itty bitty babies
is that they trill all day long and they're always talking.
But some things they have dropped off using and other things they began using more frequently.
(27:26):
Yeah.
I think I noted with the trill, like to me, that's going to eventually become a purr.
Like they're, you know, it's just going to get, it's sort of like a really high pitch
and really fast version of a purr.
But I, you know, just being around turkeys as a hunter, I kind of have the same perception
(27:50):
of them.
And I hear people talk about this that are around them a lot is that they are always
making noise.
But they have a bunch of soft things like that, that trill right now that I suspect
will eventually be a purr.
And the cluck, that's a little more deliberate, but one other thing that I have heard them
(28:11):
doing constantly is whining and it already sounds like an adult bird's whine.
That's super interesting.
Have you been able to isolate, I mean, cause that, what that example that you used earlier
of the, I want to hang out with you, but don't touch me, you know, communication, that's
like really specific, right?
(28:32):
Have you noticed anything else that any other vocalizations that are that specific?
Yeah, they're alert.
I mean, everybody is familiar with that, the putt, putt, putt.
That's so iconic.
It's one of my favorite things that they do actually.
I hate it.
It's a turkey hunter.
(28:55):
There's also, you saw this Will, when you were there.
There's a putt that is like, oh shit, I'm going to get eaten.
And then there's a different kind of putt that's like back off, like I don't want to
get injured.
And there's another one, like, what is this new thing here?
(29:16):
I don't know what to think about this, more of a curiosity, like, I don't know what to
think about this thing.
I picture them being in kind of like a statue pose when they do that.
And they're kind of extended out like, I'm not sure, I smell a rat.
Well, I don't know if you recall, but it was raining while you were there.
I know you remember that part, but it was raining and the girls had an umbrella and
(29:40):
it's down outside.
It wasn't in there with us and it wasn't even really that close.
But everybody was, all the turkeys were walking around and they got over on that wall and
one of them noticed the umbrella outside that didn't, they had not seen anyone before.
And they started doing that, that curiosity type, it wasn't a super aggressive putt, but
(30:05):
they were like, something's not right.
What is that thing?
I love seeing them investigate things because it's always that response.
I'm standing as far away as possible, but I'm getting my eye as close as I can.
Yeah.
I just imagined like those cartoons where the bull just like that.
(30:30):
Yeah.
And it takes them so long to acclimate to foreign things.
And this is something we had to employ during trapping season is just allowing them to have
that acclimation period.
But even when it comes to husbandry and we're trying to get new perches in their enclosure,
they don't even trust those, you know, you'll bring a branch in and they all alert at it
and they investigate it and that they don't touch it for three days because they're like,
(30:54):
what is this weird thing?
Like, I don't trust it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This isn't right.
Well, that is so interesting to think about how the tone of a putt can convey different
meanings and, you know, that lends credibility to people that say that, you know, different
Yelps with different tones and different intonation have different meanings as well.
(31:16):
So fascinating.
Yeah.
We, you know, we've talked about this trying to measure some of these things because we
have opportunity to sort of explore their dialect, right?
There could be some really interesting stuff that we could try to iron out experimentally
with a population like this.
(31:38):
Yeah.
And on the level of recognizing certain noises, in particular, one of the things that I've
noticed is people always ask me, like, do you really think that they believe you're
the mother hen?
And I think the answer is definitely yes, because they're certainly all familiar with
human presence, but when certain birds hear certain voices, they have different reactions.
(32:01):
You know, I've had a bird in my lap that's relaxing with me, but it hears the person
over the speaker playing to the incubation eggs, it hears their mother's voice and then
they suddenly wake up from a nap.
So they're really in tune with specific noises and specific people.
So their communication is so unique and they understand each other so well.
(32:24):
I wish I could like be able to fully understand their language.
It's incredible.
Yeah.
Do you think they recognize each other based on vocalizations only?
I mean, obviously they use the visual cues too, but I wonder like if you took away, were
able to take away the visual cues, if it, if they could recognize each other.
I mean, and what prompted that question is I saw the same thing that you're talking about
(32:46):
when I was out there, depending on, cause I think there were three different people
total who had raised broods while we were out there and depending on who was talking
and where they were, like the specific pulse that they had raised would move in that direction.
I remember us even talking about that when we were in the one that my brood was in.
(33:08):
Yeah, Brielle was in it before, which was also in there and her brood were all around
her and mine were kind of over in the corner hanging out.
And then we switched places where I ended up inside and Brielle had walked out of the
enclosure and all the pulse switched places where all mine were around us and all of ours
(33:28):
were over in the corner kind of hanging out.
So definitely, you know, things like that resonate, you know, that, that they are viewing
people differently.
And I have seen some more things than what you just described, Ava, with the voice patterns,
which would make me think they probably do recognize each other based on voice.
(33:54):
At least they seem to be very easily doing that between the human voices.
Which that may be, people may be thinking, well, obviously they can tell my voice from
Ava's voice really easily, but should they be able to tell my voice from Will's voice
really easily?
(34:14):
I mean, you know, I feel like for something that doesn't speak, like just think about
doing that for somebody that speaks a different language, it becomes incredibly difficult
for me to hear differences in people's voices when they're speaking a different language
compared to if they're speaking the one I do.
So you know, and I also, there are some obvious examples with hens, you know, where we've
(34:41):
all talked about this as hunters, where you have hens that you can hear their, they have
different voices from one another, but I wonder about just subtle ones, like they all sound
like a classic hen, but maybe to each other, they have very distinct voices.
Yeah.
I mean, you think about if they can recognize us, they're not even evolved to differentiate
(35:02):
us, right?
Like that's not what they're cueing on, but they can still do it.
So it makes me wonder, like, what's the depth and breadth of their understanding of each
other's vocalizations and specific voices?
I bet.
I bet they can tell it.
I mean, I would put money on they can tell each other, because they're just so incredibly
observant in everything that they do.
(35:23):
I find it amazing that they can visually recognize each other when they're super small and they
don't have a lot of distinct differences.
You know, they know who is the male and who is the female already, and we would be none
the wiser.
So they're incredibly observant, and I think that works to their benefit.
Man, it's so interesting to think about that in the context of hunting, isn't it, Marcus?
(35:45):
Yeah.
We can't help it.
I know.
I know.
I'm just thinking, like, as soon as you make a call, like you're putting, depending on
their mood, you're putting some of those birds on edge because they don't know who you are.
And it makes sense in a, like, you know, you've seen probably, Marcus, as much as I have,
like in a heavily hunted population, there are instances where you can see a bird and
(36:10):
you make like one note, a one note call at it, like a cluck, and they leave.
You know, it's like, that's all it takes for them to know, it's like, oh, well, if I don't
recognize that bird, I'm not going to it.
Yeah.
Well, it also makes sense why you might want to cycle through.
Yes.
You know, and you find one that they like today.
(36:33):
Yeah.
I also have thought about this a lot when, you know, kind of marrying this with our movement
data.
There also definitely is a lot of mixing going on, you know, like there are birds immigrating
in and out of areas constantly, we've, I didn't really realize to the extent until this year
(36:57):
when we had, you know, hundreds of bird or almost 200 birds tagged.
Some of them are moving so far, like to the degree where we can't even find them.
And then all of a sudden they show up again, you know.
So I also wonder about that, like there has to be some flexibility in that where they
(37:24):
don't necessarily freak out if somebody new is in town, because that's happening a lot.
That makes sense.
Based on their movement data, it is.
So yeah.
Really interesting.
Well, Ava, what else has stuck out to you that you think people would like to hear about?
(37:48):
Well, keeping on the topic of communication specifically, I have some more interesting
anecdotes and some things that I really hope we might be able to pull out from our data
or could investigate in the future, and it does relate to behavior and how intentional
the turkeys are with everything that they do.
(38:10):
And also taking it back to strutting, I've noticed, and I don't know if you've noticed
this as well, Marcus, but when you have birds displaying to each other, there's a couple
of options that they could use to deescalate that situation.
They can possibly leave and walk away.
They can continue to face off.
They can submit, or my favorite response is via preening.
(38:34):
So they'll choose to, and I think, you know, submission versus turning your head around
and preening is a very interesting and deliberate choice, and they mean different things.
So I find it so amazing that they have these couple of options and what exactly does that
mean when they're doing that?
Because I would argue, you know, when you turn around and preen, you're kind of deescalating
(38:57):
and saying, or are they possibly saying, like, hey, we were just playing.
This is not so serious.
Like I'm not letting you win, but I'm not really playing with you anymore.
And it's just like a gentle take me down versus, hey, are we actually figuring out what our
hierarchy is right now?
Is this a serious face-off?
(39:17):
And what is the actual outcome versus is it neutral?
Has a decision been made?
And when and why they choose to have different reactions and responses to each other and
something that can be so crucial to, you know, how big they're able to get and how dominant
they may or may not be.
So I just find it, again, you know, taking it back to their level of communication and
(39:39):
how clear they are with each other is just incredible.
Yeah, that's an interesting thought.
Like that's immediately what came to mind for me when you said that is that to me would
signal.
You know, we're not going to do this right now, but I'm also not telling you that you're
dominant.
(40:00):
Like this isn't settled, but this isn't the time.
That's kind of what came to mind for me.
But the other thing that came to mind and I experienced this in other ways with other
behaviors and things is I always wonder, how does everybody know?
(40:20):
Like they just all know what stuff means.
Yeah.
They all just came out of the egg knowing what to do in all these situations.
Yeah, it's crazy.
They're just on a different level of being able to understand and perceive each other.
And I know there are so many people who understand turkey calls super well, and obviously we
(40:40):
have all studied their behavior and witnessed it firsthand.
But they're really that's why I keep saying I think they're so incredibly observant because
they don't need to like hash this out a million times to understand where they stand.
So they're paying very close attention.
And that applies to people as well.
(41:01):
And they have, I really feel like sometimes they have specific experiences with their
mother hen that they carry and that changes them for the future.
Like there are certain birds where you have a once in a lifetime opportunity to bond with
them and then you notice that that actually changed them.
So I have one bird who she wasn't very personable and then one rainy day I noticed that she
(41:23):
looked kind of tired and cold and I bring up to my face even though she's 20 days old
and I cuddle her for the first time in several weeks.
And then after that point in time, everybody says how incredibly friendly she is.
So I take that again, anecdotally as like we've really shared a special moment and that
impacted the way that she interacts with me specifically as well as has kind of just made
(41:45):
her a more friendly individual.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, you got to think that they have some memory, but that level I guess is a surprise
to me.
Yeah.
And it really stands out in my mind because I so distinctly remember after that point
(42:05):
in time, she was never like that before, but now she's one of the birds who she wants to
stand next to you.
She'll jump up into your lap.
If you're there long enough, you can actually pet her.
And that's a very distinct from the other birds, so.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
I mean, that's something that I think we have almost no work on this, but I have, I find
(42:32):
really, really interesting.
I would really like to say what their capabilities are from a memory standpoint.
Does she actually remember that or is it like the, you know, like there's things that have
(42:53):
impacted us from our childhood that we don't necessarily even remember happened, but it
still has shaped the way that we behave or think or whatever.
And I wonder, is it that kind of situation where you had that moment and that like sort
of told her, oh, these humans are pretty cool, I should, you know, interact with them more.
(43:17):
And now she doesn't even remember that.
And she just interacts with them more.
She just does.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like it just became part of our behavior or, you know, is she actually thinking back?
You know what?
That time I was cold, she hooked it up, warmed me up and I'm like, now we're good.
Yeah.
(43:38):
We can't know for sure, but I definitely think that, you know, certain birds go through personality
shifts and we could never concretely say, but you kind of can feel that bond in certain
situations.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do.
I do think that would be a really interesting line of work to try to figure out what are
(43:59):
their capabilities from a memory.
I mean, even from a hunting standpoint, you hear this all the time, Will, that people
were like, well, they know every leaf and branch, everything in their whole home range.
Yeah.
Is that real?
Like they know there's a new bush on that tree over there.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, what is the extent of their memory and how long does that last?
(44:23):
You know, like an elephant where they can remember it a hundred years or no, obviously
they don't live that long, but are they remembering things their whole life?
Or is that like, you know, that happened today and I forgot about it tomorrow.
Yeah.
Um, in your experience, can you, do you have any basis for comparison regarding the level
(44:45):
of intelligence in turkeys compared to other birds?
Like, have you been around enough other species of that age?
Um, I haven't been around a lot of neonatal birds.
Um, uh, what specifically about turkeys I find so interesting is that I think people,
I think they're underrated.
(45:06):
I think a lot of people overlook how intelligent they are.
Um, let's see other birds and level of intelligence.
A lot more, I would think a lot more, uh, complexity to their social dynamics than some
other species.
Yeah, they certainly are.
Um, I mean, because there's such a social bird, it is complex.
(45:28):
Um, well, it's so hard to work out.
No.
Yeah.
I was just going to say like with other species that I've been around and interacted with
and observed, like I mentioned, they might have personalities and quirks, but I've never
quite seen any other type of bird be so intentional in the way that that turkeys are.
Um, so I would say they're very intentional, they're very observant and there are other
(45:53):
intelligent birds out there, but because of, you know, how social they are, it creates
a really unique, um, you know, what's the word I'm looking for?
Really unique personality that you'll, you'll find in any given turkey.
Yeah.
I mean, the degree of their individuality is higher than some other species you could
(46:14):
say.
Well, I was going to say it, it's so hard to work out, like I'm thinking of all these
examples and, and hearing the, the, uh, stuff that you're sharing, Ava, and I'm trying to
work out, okay, is that actually a form of intelligence or is it like part of their innate
weariness?
(46:35):
You know, like, are they just genetically programmed to be observant of everything
or, you know, are they learning to, like, I guess that's what I'm coming back to, what,
to what degree are they learning to, to, to adapt to their situation versus, versus it
(46:57):
being just like an innate capability?
Yeah, I would say, um, so much of what they do is innate and I know you and Kelly have
talked about like trying to teach the poults to hunt specific or show them specific bugs
and allow them to realize that, hey, this is a really good food source.
(47:17):
But for me personally, during the trial, there were so few things that I taught them how
to do.
Really the only thing was I taught them how to drink.
So, um, I really do think their instincts are, carry them pretty far, um, and then their,
their ability to observe works to their benefit, but I really think they have incredible instincts.
(47:39):
Yeah, that's what I would like to, to push on a little bit with the, the learning part
of it.
And then how, you know, you can also, during that same process, get at some of the memory
capability and that sort of thing, but, um, yeah, going back to when we were talking about
(48:01):
the vocalizations, I mean, you know, with, with humans, we learn language and you can
learn, you know, depending on where you're born and what language is spoken, you can
learn different kinds, right?
There are plenty of examples where people did not have that opportunity early in life
and didn't learn to speak or didn't learn a language.
(48:25):
And then I think about them, like they just come out of the egg and everybody knows to
putt when they say something that's not right.
And we also have, you know, these broods never, some of them never met each other, right?
They didn't learn it from somebody else.
They just all knew to do that.
(48:47):
So it is remarkable, like there are definitely some things that are just like part of the
scaffolding, right?
I think this is what it means to be a turkey when you come out of the egg and they need
no learning.
But then, uh, you know, there, there are other examples that are kind of abnormal, like the
drinking where, yeah, they may not be programmed to do that specific action, but they are programmed
(49:13):
to know they need water.
Yeah, I guess, go ahead, Eva.
I was just going to say, it is, uh, it's an interesting combination because sometimes
when one bird alerts to something, it will attract the other ones.
And maybe this comes down to, again, those really fine scale details of what, what single
(49:34):
tone of putt versus a different tone of putt and which one allows them to call over the
other birds and show them something versus I've also noticed sometimes one individual
will putt at something and it doesn't attract the other birds.
So again, there's just those minute details that we probably cannot hear, but sometimes
do turn into like, you know, one bird is learning from another one using the information that
(50:00):
we know what this noise means.
But when I say it in this tone, hey, it's actually serious.
You should come over here.
Or like, oh, that guy's ridiculous.
I don't know why he's alerting to that piece of grass, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess I've been guilty in the past because they are so instinctual, um, that
(50:22):
I thought, you know, they're a pretty simple animal in the sense that they kind of come
out with this set of instructions, hardwired, you know, and it's just like, they have a
handful of vocalizations and a handful of behaviors and then that's it.
But now some of the, the adaptability or the plasticity that you're talking about is challenging
(50:43):
that for me now, you know?
So it's fascinating.
Yeah.
They all come out with the rule book and then they kind of make their own rules as they
go along with each other.
And yeah, it's amazing how it's so tied to their social network.
(51:03):
Yeah, there's been so many examples of things like, you know, I think I mentioned something
related to this, but it kind of stuck with me as well.
They had a particular set of vocalizations when they find something really good to eat.
(51:24):
But at least in the first several days, I just was kind of struck by this, that everybody
knew to do the same sort of sound, like to the degree that I know, oh, they call something
good over there, but nobody else responded to that.
So everybody knows to do that, but nobody actually responded and, you know, knows to
(51:48):
run over there and try to steal it.
And then my great purple banded bird was the first one that kind of started taking an interest
in what everybody else was doing and became my quote unquote mischievous bird.
But that was kind of a different kind of example where everybody had the blueprint.
(52:12):
They all know that's what you do when you find a mole cricket, but it also didn't seem
to be attracting everybody like they all have thought through, oh, that means somebody else
found the mole cricket.
I need to go try to steal it.
And, but that changed pretty quickly, you know, later in the trial.
So it seemed like they learned that that was the response.
(52:34):
So it's just, it's really confusing to try to work through because it's so complex.
Well, and it's also kind of surprising that they wouldn't be more selfish and not vocalize
when they find something.
Yeah.
Because it turns into a rabbit chase every time.
Yeah.
When that's what I kind of thought from Blueberry is Blueberry always had everything stolen
(52:55):
from her, so she never vocalized at all, and she was always over by herself.
Yeah.
She found a lot of stuff.
So she did decide to take that strategy.
I mean, it may just be variation, you know, like there was definitely a lot of variation
in how vocal mine were, and I assume with everybody's that was the case, but I don't
(53:17):
know.
It's just a really intriguing time and, you know, we're getting to live in the middle
of it, and that's really cool.
Yeah.
I've definitely noticed the older birds, if they find something good, they take it
off in secret.
They're not going to announce that.
They don't.
Yeah.
They stop announcing it.
Nice.
(53:38):
Good for them.
Sounds like Knight's strategy is just go stand in the middle of the food bubble.
Yeah.
Fruit for Knight, you just stand inside the food dish, and nobody can do anything about
it.
Yeah.
Who's going to move it?
Yeah.
What you got?
Yeah.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah.
I've even seen them, like, tilt the food dish toward themselves, like they'll stand on
(54:00):
the one end, so they can have it.
Yeah.
Just get it done.
Yeah.
It's ridiculous.
They're so greedy.
Well, the other thing, when you start talking about food, it gave me another example that
has stuck with me, like they just all know not to eat fuzzy caterpillars, and they all
know not to eat lover grasshoppers, and they don't have to be taught that, they just know
(54:25):
not to do that, because it's so wild that there are some things that they just come
out knowing that, to me, seem like complex thought, but it's really hard to work out
which it is.
Sorry.
Go ahead, Ava.
No, I mean, I know that so many different animals, they recognize that bright coloration
(54:49):
means toxic, but it's just incredible that, like, what's going through their head when
they see specific critters that they know are bad, is it anything more than the fact
that they might be brightly colored, or do they have, like, this almost catalog of suspicious
items to avoid?
One of the things, apparently, they didn't realize is that you shouldn't stand in a fire
(55:10):
ant hill.
For the first time the other day, I saw one of my birds go walk right in it, yellow bird,
and, I mean, just to tease him, it was pretty funny, him jumping around, trying to, like,
shake him off, and I had to help him get a few, but, yeah, hilariously, they didn't
quite know about that.
Did he eat any, or did he just try to shake him off?
(55:34):
I didn't notice that he was over there until he started jumping around, so I'm not sure
if he was attracted because he went up to them, or if he's just like me, and didn't
realize that it's an ant hill, and you're standing in it.
Yeah.
It sounds just like my five-year-old.
Yeah.
They're so silly.
(55:55):
Yeah.
Well, there are a few people that comment this all the time online, so there are a lot
of people that think fire ants have led to the demise of ground-nesting birds.
Oh, I mean, actually, on that point, fire ants are, they can kill young birds, for sure.
(56:22):
I think it's quite crazy, you know, taking it back to, I talked about this at the very
opening when I was working on an American Kestrel project, you know, we would have cases
where those birds are obviously cavity nesters, and they're stuck where they are.
But if fire ants find you, they can kill you and cause deformities and all of that, so
(56:43):
really, yeah, it's a shame that some of these young animals do have to deal with them, because
they're pretty intense.
I think we talked about it, Will, on the air, one of my poults got bitten by an ant early,
it was like day four or five in the trial, and it ran around vocalizing, kind of erratic
(57:06):
and not hunting for a while.
Wow.
Do you know how many bites it got, or no way to tell?
No, it bit the ant on the poult, and it was like in the web of its foot, and it was preoccupied
with that for a while, and it was kind of like not behaving like it should be.
(57:30):
It wasn't foraging, it was being erratic, and it was also being loud, and I just could
see where that could be a problem, and it, you know, stuck with me.
Not good news.
Yeah, I mean, you think about a predator being within an earshot of that, I mean, that's
a dinner bell.
Sure, yeah, big distraction.
(57:50):
Yeah, so I'd kind of, I know that fire ants can cause problems for some species, but I
had kind of dismissed that for poults, because they could just eat the ants, I mean, you
know, they might accidentally stand in the ant hill, but it's not going to kill them,
(58:14):
but in that case, it could definitely make them more vulnerable.
Sure.
Did you notice anything like that with Yellowbird, where he was noticeably distracted?
Yeah, he was certainly distracted for quite a few minutes, and I think he couldn't quite,
because they're so tiny, he couldn't quite find them on himself, and he was trying to
(58:37):
get his band off, and clean a little bit, and you know how fire ants are, they'll bite
you for a second, and then stop, and bite you again, and then you're startled by that,
so it certainly was distracting him for a couple of minutes, and I can totally see how
that's an opportunity for somebody to come in and take advantage of that situation, and
(58:58):
after that, you know, he was pretty avoidant, but strangely enough, you know, the other
birds are walking around, and some of them were going over to the ant hill, and I was
like, don't stand there, did you not just see that, like, you're going to get bit, so.
Some of us have to learn the hard way.
Yeah, he didn't, he was too distracted to turn it into a learning opportunity for the
(59:19):
other birds.
Now we're back to their intelligence again, like, everybody goes and stands in the ant
hill.
Yeah.
Oh man, this is so fun, I'm fascinated by all this, and I'm just learning so much, I'm
(59:40):
appreciative of you, Ava, and your work, and that, you know, you're dedicating so much
of your life to this stuff, because I think we're, it's going to continue to open up a
bunch of doors, I mean, there's so many things that Marcus and I have discussed since he
opened this facility that, you know, we just never would have thought about before.
Yeah, it's an incredible feat, and I'm really proud of everybody on our team, very proud
(01:00:05):
of myself and what I've been able to do, and it takes a very serious level of dedication.
I think it's incredible that we not only might be able to discover some amazing trends in
this data that could help the species, of course, but even taking it down to the level
of so many opportunities we've taken from 100% failure to success, you know, hens that
(01:00:28):
have, of course, risked their lives and died as a result of, you know, trying to give these
eggs a chance, and we're able to raise them, I mean, it's just an incredible privilege,
and I take that very seriously, so, you know, there's so many different aspects of what
we can achieve through this, and each of us are so dedicated to making sure that they're
(01:00:50):
happy and healthy.
Yeah, glad y'all are doing it.
Yeah, it has been a fun thing to watch, watch all the, I mean, most of the team were not
real turkey enthusiasts specifically, but now you can see it, like this experience has
changed everybody to, you know, really care for the species and conservation and everything,
(01:01:16):
so it's been fun to watch that.
And seeing the dedication, there's no question that it's taken a lot of dedication from a
lot of people.
Yeah, for sure, it's incredible.
Well, did we miss anything, Ava, anything that you want to share or leave the audience
(01:01:38):
with?
Yeah, I feel like that was a good closing note, it's just that, you know, we all are
super dedicated to this, it shows, and I think everything we've been able to learn and collect,
whether that's anecdotally or, you know, via this plethora of information that we have
is really going to make an impact.
(01:01:58):
It's something that I'll never forget for like the rest of my life, and I'll be able
to carry this through my career, and it's just really a great time.
That's awesome, well thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences with us today,
we appreciate it.
Yeah, I'm sure we'll have to revisit because things are changing so fast, you know, we
(01:02:22):
could probably do it in a few weeks and have a completely new conversation about it.
Oh yeah, yeah, and if this, of course, we plan to continue this on for possibly years
to come, it'll be so exciting to see these birds into maturity, and you know, will their
personalities change, will Night be the biggest forever, or will Yellowbird be a major contender,
(01:02:44):
like, it's kind of like an exciting journey that we're on here.
It's like a soap opera.
Yeah, go like Yellowbird, let's go sneak in.
I feel like you're leaving us with a teaser for the end of a TV series, you know, it's
like, will Night continue to dominate?
Yeah, for sure.
(01:03:06):
That's so fun.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, thanks for coming to do this, thanks everybody out there for listening, we really
appreciate it.
If you guys want us to continue down the Polt Road, we're happy to do that, we're like four,
five, six episodes in now focused on that, but people are saying they want to keep hearing
(01:03:29):
about it, and I think that's a testament to, you know, how novel this is, the information
that's coming from it, and you know, thank you Ava for coming on and sharing your knowledge
and for everything you've done for the project and for Turkey, so I think everybody appreciates
that.
Yeah, thanks for having me, it was super fun.
(01:03:50):
Thanks Ava.
Wild Turkey Science is part of the Natural Resources University podcast network and is
made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow, a grassroots organization dedicated to the wild turkey.
To learn more about TFT, check out turkeysfortomorrow.org.
(01:04:11):
you
Welcome to Wild Turkey Science, a podcast made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow.
(00:14):
I'm Dr. Marcus Lashley, Professor of Wildlife Ecology at the University of Florida.
And I'm Dr. Will Goolsby, Professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at Auburn University.
We're both lifelong hunters and devoted scientists who are passionate about hunting, managing,
and researching wild turkeys.
In this podcast, we'll explore turkey research, speak to the experts in the field, and address
(00:39):
the difficult questions related to wild turkey ecology and management.
Our goal is to serve as your connection to wild turkey science.
Well, here we are again, ready to talk about some poults.
(01:00):
So, Ava, we are glad to have you on the show.
I think your name has been mentioned in several different contexts, but you are the field
coordinator overseeing the field work with the poult facility, so we thought it would
be really valuable to have you on and give you an opportunity to tell people other things
(01:25):
about that.
I know we've covered some things, but folks are messaging us a lot, telling us they want
to hear more and more and more about it.
And I can understand why they feel that way, because that's the way I feel about it.
And I think it's fun to talk about all the cool things that are going on, and things
are changing fast, so we should have plenty of opportunity to do that.
(01:49):
So thanks for coming to talk to us about that.
I know you have just met Will, so maybe I'll turn it over to Will and let you start.
How do you like Will?
Yeah, thanks for coming on, Ava.
Again, nice to meet you.
From talking to Marcus, I understand that you were involved in other similar types of
(02:12):
bird research before coming to the poult facility, so I wanted to start out by asking, how did
you get qualified to come be the field manager on this project?
Yeah, I have had so many different experiences in so many different areas.
So I've worked in Montana on songbird radio tracking study, but probably the most, as
(02:35):
well as radio tracking of kestrels in Florida too.
So that relates to our trapping season.
But when it comes to poults specifically and rearing them, I was an intern at the National
Aviary in Pittsburgh, and I had this unique opportunity to shadow the breeding center
leader.
And she essentially is a absolute expert in the aspect of specifically monitoring eggs
(03:00):
and kind of creating the perfect scenario for them to be able to be successful.
And so by watching her and how intense that she was in monitoring their humidity and what
they're doing inside of the egg and candling super frequently, we were able to kind of
come up with this perfect system of what are our milestones for the wild turkey egg and
(03:21):
when do we need to change our settings and how quickly do we need to act on these things
and how sensitive is that overall process.
So I was able to watch her closely and see all of those specific insights that we should
be paying attention to, and that really prepared me to get these wild eggs from wild scenarios
and get them into our incubators.
(03:43):
That's really cool.
And Marcus, you're really fortunate to find somebody with that skill set.
I know.
I mean, golly, talk about one in a million.
But before we start talking about turkeys, Ava, do you have any cool stories or highlights
you would want to share from your time working at the aviary?
Sure.
Or like maybe something that was just, you know, what you enjoyed the most or you found
(04:05):
fascinating during that experience?
Yeah.
I mean, taking it back to egg specifically, something I find so fascinating is how perfectly
every single thing has to work out.
You know, not only do you need to have a fertilized egg, but that needs to be shelf stable at
first and then you've got to trigger incubation.
And then once that has begun, that has to be consistent for, you know, 28 days or however
(04:31):
long that cycle is.
And it's just incredible to be able to watch them go from an orange yolk versus the rest
of the yellow fluid in the egg to becoming an embryo that undulates in the egg and then
the vessel is growing and then suddenly you can see turkey feet in there.
But what I learned so amazingly from Bree Crane at the aviary is that every single part
(04:55):
of that aspect, every single part of that process is so sensitive.
And if the bird is not perfectly positioned, if it doesn't absorb the yolk completely,
if there's not enough moisture in the air during hatching, if the head doesn't pip
into the internal air cell and then be able to access the outside air, the probability
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of that egg hatching will significantly decrease.
So it's just incredible how sensitive it is.
And I was able to see, I don't know if I can talk about it specifically, but just exotic
eggs that have never been hatched by anybody else in a controlled setting.
So being able to see some of those was really insightful and applicable to this scenario.
(05:38):
But also relating to that, I mean, when you work in an aviary setting with so many different
species of birds, you not only see how they're different between species, but how certain
individuals have personalities.
And that obviously has applied to our poults as well.
I feel like I know them so well and our bond has matured over time.
You know, we now have birds that are three days old and my eldest birds are 55 days old
(06:03):
now.
So it's really incredible how every individual has a personality.
And you can see that in every bird that you meet as you go through your career.
That's super cool.
We don't have to go into great detail on it, but this is something that I'm just now learning
about that I find really intriguing, which is that incubation is triggered.
(06:26):
And can you maybe real briefly talk about how is the egg different before versus after
onset of incubation and what happens?
What physically changes?
So I know Marcus has already touched base on this in previous podcasts, I think.
So the hen will essentially, all of those eggs until she's ready to incubate are shelf
stable.
(06:47):
And she'll come and sit for a few hours to ensure that they remain fertile, but it isn't
until that first day of incubation that she allows them to start developing.
And then everything after that is incredibly crucial.
So what's so cool about the turkeys is the fact that they can be shelf stable for a certain
amount of time.
(07:07):
And then after that point in time, you know, they just become increasingly more sensitive
to any variation in their care.
So of course the humidity is one of those aspects that's very crucial.
If it's too humid, they're not losing enough moisture quick enough and that will affect
their ability to absorb the yolk.
If it's too dry, they're losing too much moisture and that also affects their ability to obtain
(07:32):
nutrients.
And what is so interesting, we might be able to reveal in our egg monitoring information
is that if these eggs have gone through major interruptions, is that possibly affecting
the long-term outcome and success of that poult?
All of those minute things can be so significant when it comes to the amount of nutrients that
(07:53):
you can absorb in the egg and how consistent your development is in the egg to your life
outside the egg.
Man, it just keeps stimulating more and more questions that I have, but I know we need
to get to the meat and potatoes of this.
Yeah, I know.
I think we have such little information on that process, like we know that getting disrupted
(08:15):
messes it up, but does that happen when she gets bumped off of a nest because a predator
came by or somebody mowed through or how much is that affecting things and you don't really
even realize it because she may not abandon the nest, but still have problems because
of the incubation process being interrupted.
(08:37):
Yeah, or how do recess activities affect it?
That's something that came to mind for me.
It's certainly, I could see where that could matter, especially if you get them into a
situation where they start recessing abnormally.
Right.
Super interesting.
Yeah.
Well, one thing that came to mind for me, Ava, and I don't know Ralph off the top of
(09:02):
my head because I'm not staying in touch with the data like you are, you said that the oldest
poles are 55 days old.
How big are they?
Our biggest male is now decently over 800 grams.
So 800 grams is 1.8 pounds.
(09:26):
Isn't that wild?
You can barely hold him in two hands.
So our biggest bird is 838 grams and the next in line in terms of size and possible dominance
ranking is only 695.
So it's 25% bigger.
Wow.
He's an absolute beast.
And then we also have a really interesting bird who creates such a interesting data set,
(09:50):
which is Rocky.
He kind of went through this period of being stunted during the study trial and so we take
extra good care of him.
But because of that, he is only a quarter of the size of some of these birds and he's
only 188 grams.
So it's really incredible how either how rapidly they can grow or how stunted they can be and
(10:11):
the fact that both of those birds are successful and have made it to this point in time in
their own way.
Some of them need a lot of help and some of them are just absolute beasts.
That is an incredible variation, just like the two biggest ones, even the difference
(10:31):
in those two, that's still tremendous.
Right.
Yeah.
That's Night versus the biggest bird from my group who I call Yellow Bird.
And then it looks like the rest of our birds in that age range are between 400 and 600.
So when you compare it to even the rest of them, it's quite substantial.
(10:52):
So Night is twice the size of the average from the brood, the clutch.
Is that what you just said?
Did I do that math right?
Yeah.
That looks about right.
Wow.
Wow.
That Night is a beast.
Yeah.
(11:12):
He is.
And surprisingly, he's pretty friendly.
But just yesterday, this was so interesting to witness.
Their rates of displaying to each other has decreased over time because these same birds
have been in the same group for a month or so now.
And so they don't really have this need to continue to work out their social hierarchy.
(11:32):
But yesterday happened to be in there and Yellow Bird and Night had a big fight.
And I'm not sure that Yellow Bird made any gains there.
But looking at their size difference, that is just shocking that he would even dare challenge
Night.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yellow Bird, I think is, you know, it's like dynamite.
Big boom in a small package, he's worth it to Night.
(11:56):
He's pretty personable.
Yeah.
I actually, last time I was in there, it was Yellow Bird.
I'm pretty sure that I got footage and I just was enamored at that point.
He was around six weeks old.
But maybe you were in there with me and you confirmed that's who it was.
(12:17):
Yeah.
When I walked around the, you know, the edge of the divider in the middle of the enclosure,
Yellow Bird was strutting and you could see some of the adult feathers, those middle retrices
had already emerged.
And I was just like, whoa, that's the first time I've seen that.
(12:38):
So, you know, I've got a little bit of footage of it, but yeah, it is kind of, well, you
said several things that were interesting.
One, they've started, you've noticed they decreased their displaying, but they're that
far apart and Yellow Bird is still trying, I would say.
(13:00):
Right.
And then immediately after that, it seemed to have enticed my Lime Bird to strut and
he just was going nonstop to anyone that would give him the time of day to see as well.
We've got a lot of great footage of him being silly.
(13:21):
So I'm curious, is there anything that you've noticed in Knight's behavior that would explain
why he's so much bigger than everybody else?
You know, I actually don't have a lot of unique observations about him that would explain
why he has become absolutely massive.
Yeah.
But something that I think is so interesting that we may be able to, and we should be able
(13:45):
to kind of reveal these trends is, you know, does their degree of boldness correlate to
their size?
And what I've noticed is that this has, this can shift and change over time.
So taking it back to when I was doing my study trial with my study brood, I had this one
(14:05):
bird who I'm very confident she's a hen.
She had a spiral poop.
Her picture has been featured a couple of times for that iconic poop.
But I've also seen her strut.
So I always perceived her as this dominant hen in that group of five, and she was heavier
than the other suspected hen in my group.
But as soon as she was introduced to this larger group of graduated birds, she immediately
(14:28):
became very hesitant and shy.
She was never particularly close with me.
She still avoids people, but I've noticed that she also avoids the birds.
She's one of the few to rush in for the morning breakfast frenzy.
And I can see that reflected in her size.
She is one of the smallest in the group, despite being among the oldest hatched birds.
(14:52):
And you can kind of see, it's just incredible to know that she went from being bigger than
the lesser dominant hen to being one of the smallest hens in the group because she's not
as bold.
She's a bit more timid and that has affected her.
So I wonder, as Night continues to be bigger and bigger and bolder and bolder, nobody's
(15:14):
going to challenge him.
He's going to stand in the middle of the food dish.
He's always going to have that extra edge to get that much more food and continue growing.
Yeah, sort of like a positive feedback that's going to cause him to get more and more bigger
than everybody else or one more different.
You stimulated a thought for me as well, and maybe you remember, because I know that you
(15:35):
have really intimate relationships with all the birds because you're out there constantly.
One thing that was striking to me is I had the bird Blueberry, and Blueberry was the
smallest in every weight measurement through the whole time.
(15:56):
But I noticed, I think it was the second one after, so they'd been in, you know, out of
their trials, graduated for about two weeks or about a month old.
The second one, I noticed when you sent me the measurements that Blueberry was now the
biggest out of my brood and had been the smallest for all that time.
(16:16):
And then after two weeks of being in that new context was now all of a sudden weighing
more than everybody else.
So I don't know if that was a change in behavior or effectiveness as a forager or what, but
I just, that stuck in my head like, wow, I was not expecting Blueberry to be the biggest.
Yeah.
(16:37):
And I think the fact that they now live in very consistent conditions, they're not necessarily
out in those foraging plots.
They're primarily relying on our ecological food every day.
It should lean towards, you know, behavioral aspects impacting that maybe not so much foraging
because they don't have the same level of opportunity to forage a large population of,
(17:01):
you know, bugs that are hopping in there.
They're going to deplete that very quickly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
So on average, when a poult first hatches, do you know about what, in my head it's about
50 grams, but what on average has been their size when, right when they hatch?
(17:25):
Yeah.
It's usually between 50 and 60 grams or the higher end of, you know, 48, 49.
Okay.
So let's see, 50 grams.
So night is not quite 20 times the size of at 50 something days.
(17:48):
That's crazy to me.
Yeah.
And their transformations are so rapid and so intense.
You know, it's not just a bird going from getting larger in size and putting on muscle
masses that they're, you know, changing and molting every single feather on their body
rapidly, you know, going from those tiny hair like down feathers to having, you know, flight
(18:10):
feathers and then replacing those as they get even bigger, you know, all of their limbs
are growing.
It's, it's like having a toddler who sleeps and eats and cries.
And then two weeks later, they're climbing a tree.
It's so impressive how they can just jump like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is remarkable.
(18:30):
You know, we've been talking about night a lot, so I did have another question that is
related to our conversation.
Was he always the biggest?
Was he biggest out of the egg or did it change at some point?
And if so, when?
Let me check real quick and then answer that because I have the data.
(18:54):
So for the audience and Will, we do have measurements basically from that time that they were in
the egg all the way till now.
We've had really detailed growth information on every individual.
Yeah.
I wonder if even his egg was bigger.
Yeah.
I can't tell you the exact weight of his egg, but what I can tell you is that he certainly
(19:17):
was not our heaviest hatched poult.
That was a big foot.
So he night hatched at 56 grams when he dried off.
And there were birds that we suspect are hens that, you know, were 60 grams.
So he didn't necessarily have that immediate leg up on anyone.
(19:41):
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
But at some point he turned on the growth factor and just started running away with
it.
Yeah.
He certainly was a notorious strutter.
I recall, obviously we have so many videos of him and Yellowbird, you know, facing off.
So that may have, you know, paid off for him in the end because he just never gave up,
(20:07):
you know.
So that footage that we have shared of the two poults that were, I think you were, it
was your plot.
Is that those two birds?
The five day old birds that are in the plot, those, that was my Yellowbird and my Limebird.
But we also have footage that everyone has seen of specifically night strutting as well.
(20:28):
Yeah.
So interesting.
The growth rate on these things, man.
I'm still just thinking about what she said a second ago, the notorious strutter.
I think that could be our new rap band name, Marcus.
That's a good one.
The Notorious Strutters.
We should title this podcast episode, The Notorious Strutter.
(20:50):
And it's so crazy how, like, now when you go and see night, it stands out.
Every single person who walks into that enclosure with those birds, it points out him specifically.
So at this point, it's just crazy how he surpassed everyone.
But way back when, when he was such a notorious strutter, you couldn't necessarily tell him
apart from the others.
(21:12):
Yeah.
That's funny.
I don't know if Will realizes it, but Will pointed out night whenever he walked into
the enclosure.
Did I really?
Look at that bird.
Did I really?
Yes.
We can't miss him.
That was the one you pointed at first.
That was, I think I remember being confused about how many age classes were in that pen
(21:33):
because he was like in a league of his own.
Yeah.
He was so much bigger.
And I said, no, that is our biggest one.
Yeah.
That's funny.
I was a little bit worried when, when Ava said that, that I had missed night and I hadn't
pointed him out.
And I'm like, so unobservant.
The first thing you did, but confused it's so big, you know, uh, I don't know if we're
(21:59):
ready to go to this part of the conversation yet, but I think there's also some consequences
coming with that.
I think night was also one of them that started balding first.
I know several of them had been balding, but I was, well, it may be yellow bird that I'm
thinking of, but I would, I think it was one of those that I noticed it on myself first.
(22:21):
Yeah.
It's so funny to see, but when I saw it for myself, it was one of those too.
I'm pretty sure.
Yeah.
And I could notice it a little bit when I was there the other week and it's hilarious
looking.
It's so funny.
It's definitely in their appearance, their awkward teenage phase, as well as their personalities.
I would say our most notorious balding bird is my line bird.
(22:46):
He was first to start losing feathers on the back of his head and I thought something was
was wrong with him.
And then I realized, but yeah, there's, there's still so cute.
Yellow bird is balding in the front now.
So yeah, I'm not sure there's any correlation between, you know, how dominant they are or
necessarily how big they are.
(23:06):
Maybe it's just an individual.
Yeah.
I was thinking maybe it just the males are first or.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't have any, nothing stands out to me as far as the hens losing any head feathers.
So when you said that, do you mean that the hens haven't started doing that or you haven't
(23:26):
noticed anything different from the males?
I don't have any memories of hens balding.
So I think they might not really be doing it to the, as rapidly as suspected males.
Okay.
That's interesting.
The males all first checks out.
Yeah.
(23:46):
For folks that are listening, take a minute and go watch this because it is hilarious.
Yeah.
The footage of them balding, you know, we'll say that's the awkward phase is hilarious.
Cause I think about, you know, everybody, I feel like has a, has a story about having
a bad haircut around the time you're in middle school and that's like where they are right
(24:09):
now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also with their personalities Marcus, you did a great job at making this exact noise,
but there they have this don't touch me noise.
Like I'll stand next to you, mom, and we can hang out, but don't try to pet me.
And they use it every single time.
I think it's so funny how they'll want to come hang out, but you got to keep your respectful
(24:31):
distance because they don't want to cuddle you.
They'll communicate that they're super clear with their communication, which I find to
be super impressive.
Well, a question related to that, but also the balding, what, at what age did you start
noticing the balding do you remember?
Oh goodness.
(24:52):
It was several weeks ago, so maybe one and a half months old.
Okay.
So you think some, somewhere in the four to six week range probably.
Yeah.
And that also would correlate with like, you know, they can thermoregulate on their own.
They're up on the purchase at night independently.
(25:13):
It's kind of like a developmental milestone.
It seems one thing I was actually, I recorded, did these little selfie recordings every day
while I was out there just because I knew I'd see things and reflect on it right then
and forget it.
But one of the things that I noted in one of them that I listened to that I had forgotten
(25:37):
was that overnight their voices started changing.
Like I could hear that they were no longer, they no longer had the little classic peep,
you know, it started becoming more like a, whatever that sound is called that birders
do.
(25:58):
But you started hearing that, that a hoarseness in their peeping and stuff.
So is that when you were talking about the, their communication, have you seen some sort
of progression in their voice changing like that?
Yeah.
They certainly use certain noises more now than they did in the past.
(26:21):
There are certain things they've just completely stopped using.
Like I haven't seen them use the lost call in the longest time, I think because they're
pretty confident and comfortable where they are.
They don't need me every single moment of the day.
So that's something they don't do anymore.
They started doing what I call a little clocking noise.
I think it might have a different terminology for people who hunt and kind of know the names
(26:43):
of the calls a bit better.
But they started doing that at a pretty significant-
So is that just like an abrupt, you're talking about just like an abrupt single note?
Yeah.
It's-
I'm just dying to ask y'all to make, to recreate these sounds.
I wish I, I wish I could, but yeah, it's pretty much sounds like a clock.
(27:03):
Some people have told me it sounds similar to their yelping noise.
But what I've noticed is that, you know, they're always content.
So they're always trilling.
That's something that they've carried over from their time as little itty bitty babies
is that they trill all day long and they're always talking.
But some things they have dropped off using and other things they began using more frequently.
(27:26):
Yeah.
I think I noted with the trill, like to me, that's going to eventually become a purr.
Like they're, you know, it's just going to get, it's sort of like a really high pitch
and really fast version of a purr.
But I, you know, just being around turkeys as a hunter, I kind of have the same perception
(27:50):
of them.
And I hear people talk about this that are around them a lot is that they are always
making noise.
But they have a bunch of soft things like that, that trill right now that I suspect
will eventually be a purr.
And the cluck, that's a little more deliberate, but one other thing that I have heard them
(28:11):
doing constantly is whining and it already sounds like an adult bird's whine.
That's super interesting.
Have you been able to isolate, I mean, cause that, what that example that you used earlier
of the, I want to hang out with you, but don't touch me, you know, communication, that's
like really specific, right?
(28:32):
Have you noticed anything else that any other vocalizations that are that specific?
Yeah, they're alert.
I mean, everybody is familiar with that, the putt, putt, putt.
That's so iconic.
It's one of my favorite things that they do actually.
I hate it.
It's a turkey hunter.
(28:55):
There's also, you saw this Will, when you were there.
There's a putt that is like, oh shit, I'm going to get eaten.
And then there's a different kind of putt that's like back off, like I don't want to
get injured.
And there's another one, like, what is this new thing here?
(29:16):
I don't know what to think about this, more of a curiosity, like, I don't know what to
think about this thing.
I picture them being in kind of like a statue pose when they do that.
And they're kind of extended out like, I'm not sure, I smell a rat.
Well, I don't know if you recall, but it was raining while you were there.
I know you remember that part, but it was raining and the girls had an umbrella and
(29:40):
it's down outside.
It wasn't in there with us and it wasn't even really that close.
But everybody was, all the turkeys were walking around and they got over on that wall and
one of them noticed the umbrella outside that didn't, they had not seen anyone before.
And they started doing that, that curiosity type, it wasn't a super aggressive putt, but
(30:05):
they were like, something's not right.
What is that thing?
I love seeing them investigate things because it's always that response.
I'm standing as far away as possible, but I'm getting my eye as close as I can.
Yeah.
I just imagined like those cartoons where the bull just like that.
(30:30):
Yeah.
And it takes them so long to acclimate to foreign things.
And this is something we had to employ during trapping season is just allowing them to have
that acclimation period.
But even when it comes to husbandry and we're trying to get new perches in their enclosure,
they don't even trust those, you know, you'll bring a branch in and they all alert at it
and they investigate it and that they don't touch it for three days because they're like,
(30:54):
what is this weird thing?
Like, I don't trust it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This isn't right.
Well, that is so interesting to think about how the tone of a putt can convey different
meanings and, you know, that lends credibility to people that say that, you know, different
Yelps with different tones and different intonation have different meanings as well.
(31:16):
So fascinating.
Yeah.
We, you know, we've talked about this trying to measure some of these things because we
have opportunity to sort of explore their dialect, right?
There could be some really interesting stuff that we could try to iron out experimentally
with a population like this.
(31:38):
Yeah.
And on the level of recognizing certain noises, in particular, one of the things that I've
noticed is people always ask me, like, do you really think that they believe you're
the mother hen?
And I think the answer is definitely yes, because they're certainly all familiar with
human presence, but when certain birds hear certain voices, they have different reactions.
(32:01):
You know, I've had a bird in my lap that's relaxing with me, but it hears the person
over the speaker playing to the incubation eggs, it hears their mother's voice and then
they suddenly wake up from a nap.
So they're really in tune with specific noises and specific people.
So their communication is so unique and they understand each other so well.
(32:24):
I wish I could like be able to fully understand their language.
It's incredible.
Yeah.
Do you think they recognize each other based on vocalizations only?
I mean, obviously they use the visual cues too, but I wonder like if you took away, were
able to take away the visual cues, if it, if they could recognize each other.
I mean, and what prompted that question is I saw the same thing that you're talking about
(32:46):
when I was out there, depending on, cause I think there were three different people
total who had raised broods while we were out there and depending on who was talking
and where they were, like the specific pulse that they had raised would move in that direction.
I remember us even talking about that when we were in the one that my brood was in.
(33:08):
Yeah, Brielle was in it before, which was also in there and her brood were all around
her and mine were kind of over in the corner hanging out.
And then we switched places where I ended up inside and Brielle had walked out of the
enclosure and all the pulse switched places where all mine were around us and all of ours
(33:28):
were over in the corner kind of hanging out.
So definitely, you know, things like that resonate, you know, that, that they are viewing
people differently.
And I have seen some more things than what you just described, Ava, with the voice patterns,
which would make me think they probably do recognize each other based on voice.
(33:54):
At least they seem to be very easily doing that between the human voices.
Which that may be, people may be thinking, well, obviously they can tell my voice from
Ava's voice really easily, but should they be able to tell my voice from Will's voice
really easily?
(34:14):
I mean, you know, I feel like for something that doesn't speak, like just think about
doing that for somebody that speaks a different language, it becomes incredibly difficult
for me to hear differences in people's voices when they're speaking a different language
compared to if they're speaking the one I do.
So you know, and I also, there are some obvious examples with hens, you know, where we've
(34:41):
all talked about this as hunters, where you have hens that you can hear their, they have
different voices from one another, but I wonder about just subtle ones, like they all sound
like a classic hen, but maybe to each other, they have very distinct voices.
Yeah.
I mean, you think about if they can recognize us, they're not even evolved to differentiate
(35:02):
us, right?
Like that's not what they're cueing on, but they can still do it.
So it makes me wonder, like, what's the depth and breadth of their understanding of each
other's vocalizations and specific voices?
I bet.
I bet they can tell it.
I mean, I would put money on they can tell each other, because they're just so incredibly
observant in everything that they do.
(35:23):
I find it amazing that they can visually recognize each other when they're super small and they
don't have a lot of distinct differences.
You know, they know who is the male and who is the female already, and we would be none
the wiser.
So they're incredibly observant, and I think that works to their benefit.
Man, it's so interesting to think about that in the context of hunting, isn't it, Marcus?
(35:45):
Yeah.
We can't help it.
I know.
I know.
I'm just thinking, like, as soon as you make a call, like you're putting, depending on
their mood, you're putting some of those birds on edge because they don't know who you are.
And it makes sense in a, like, you know, you've seen probably, Marcus, as much as I have,
like in a heavily hunted population, there are instances where you can see a bird and
(36:10):
you make like one note, a one note call at it, like a cluck, and they leave.
You know, it's like, that's all it takes for them to know, it's like, oh, well, if I don't
recognize that bird, I'm not going to it.
Yeah.
Well, it also makes sense why you might want to cycle through.
Yes.
You know, and you find one that they like today.
(36:33):
Yeah.
I also have thought about this a lot when, you know, kind of marrying this with our movement
data.
There also definitely is a lot of mixing going on, you know, like there are birds immigrating
in and out of areas constantly, we've, I didn't really realize to the extent until this year
(36:57):
when we had, you know, hundreds of bird or almost 200 birds tagged.
Some of them are moving so far, like to the degree where we can't even find them.
And then all of a sudden they show up again, you know.
So I also wonder about that, like there has to be some flexibility in that where they
(37:24):
don't necessarily freak out if somebody new is in town, because that's happening a lot.
That makes sense.
Based on their movement data, it is.
So yeah.
Really interesting.
Well, Ava, what else has stuck out to you that you think people would like to hear about?
(37:48):
Well, keeping on the topic of communication specifically, I have some more interesting
anecdotes and some things that I really hope we might be able to pull out from our data
or could investigate in the future, and it does relate to behavior and how intentional
the turkeys are with everything that they do.
(38:10):
And also taking it back to strutting, I've noticed, and I don't know if you've noticed
this as well, Marcus, but when you have birds displaying to each other, there's a couple
of options that they could use to deescalate that situation.
They can possibly leave and walk away.
They can continue to face off.
They can submit, or my favorite response is via preening.
(38:34):
So they'll choose to, and I think, you know, submission versus turning your head around
and preening is a very interesting and deliberate choice, and they mean different things.
So I find it so amazing that they have these couple of options and what exactly does that
mean when they're doing that?
Because I would argue, you know, when you turn around and preen, you're kind of deescalating
(38:57):
and saying, or are they possibly saying, like, hey, we were just playing.
This is not so serious.
Like I'm not letting you win, but I'm not really playing with you anymore.
And it's just like a gentle take me down versus, hey, are we actually figuring out what our
hierarchy is right now?
Is this a serious face-off?
(39:17):
And what is the actual outcome versus is it neutral?
Has a decision been made?
And when and why they choose to have different reactions and responses to each other and
something that can be so crucial to, you know, how big they're able to get and how dominant
they may or may not be.
So I just find it, again, you know, taking it back to their level of communication and
(39:39):
how clear they are with each other is just incredible.
Yeah, that's an interesting thought.
Like that's immediately what came to mind for me when you said that is that to me would
signal.
You know, we're not going to do this right now, but I'm also not telling you that you're
dominant.
(40:00):
Like this isn't settled, but this isn't the time.
That's kind of what came to mind for me.
But the other thing that came to mind and I experienced this in other ways with other
behaviors and things is I always wonder, how does everybody know?
(40:20):
Like they just all know what stuff means.
Yeah.
They all just came out of the egg knowing what to do in all these situations.
Yeah, it's crazy.
They're just on a different level of being able to understand and perceive each other.
And I know there are so many people who understand turkey calls super well, and obviously we
(40:40):
have all studied their behavior and witnessed it firsthand.
But they're really that's why I keep saying I think they're so incredibly observant because
they don't need to like hash this out a million times to understand where they stand.
So they're paying very close attention.
And that applies to people as well.
(41:01):
And they have, I really feel like sometimes they have specific experiences with their
mother hen that they carry and that changes them for the future.
Like there are certain birds where you have a once in a lifetime opportunity to bond with
them and then you notice that that actually changed them.
So I have one bird who she wasn't very personable and then one rainy day I noticed that she
(41:23):
looked kind of tired and cold and I bring up to my face even though she's 20 days old
and I cuddle her for the first time in several weeks.
And then after that point in time, everybody says how incredibly friendly she is.
So I take that again, anecdotally as like we've really shared a special moment and that
impacted the way that she interacts with me specifically as well as has kind of just made
(41:45):
her a more friendly individual.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, you got to think that they have some memory, but that level I guess is a surprise
to me.
Yeah.
And it really stands out in my mind because I so distinctly remember after that point
(42:05):
in time, she was never like that before, but now she's one of the birds who she wants to
stand next to you.
She'll jump up into your lap.
If you're there long enough, you can actually pet her.
And that's a very distinct from the other birds, so.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
I mean, that's something that I think we have almost no work on this, but I have, I find
(42:32):
really, really interesting.
I would really like to say what their capabilities are from a memory standpoint.
Does she actually remember that or is it like the, you know, like there's things that have
(42:53):
impacted us from our childhood that we don't necessarily even remember happened, but it
still has shaped the way that we behave or think or whatever.
And I wonder, is it that kind of situation where you had that moment and that like sort
of told her, oh, these humans are pretty cool, I should, you know, interact with them more.
(43:17):
And now she doesn't even remember that.
And she just interacts with them more.
She just does.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like it just became part of our behavior or, you know, is she actually thinking back?
You know what?
That time I was cold, she hooked it up, warmed me up and I'm like, now we're good.
Yeah.
(43:38):
We can't know for sure, but I definitely think that, you know, certain birds go through personality
shifts and we could never concretely say, but you kind of can feel that bond in certain
situations.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do.
I do think that would be a really interesting line of work to try to figure out what are
(43:59):
their capabilities from a memory.
I mean, even from a hunting standpoint, you hear this all the time, Will, that people
were like, well, they know every leaf and branch, everything in their whole home range.
Yeah.
Is that real?
Like they know there's a new bush on that tree over there.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, what is the extent of their memory and how long does that last?
(44:23):
You know, like an elephant where they can remember it a hundred years or no, obviously
they don't live that long, but are they remembering things their whole life?
Or is that like, you know, that happened today and I forgot about it tomorrow.
Yeah.
Um, in your experience, can you, do you have any basis for comparison regarding the level
(44:45):
of intelligence in turkeys compared to other birds?
Like, have you been around enough other species of that age?
Um, I haven't been around a lot of neonatal birds.
Um, uh, what specifically about turkeys I find so interesting is that I think people,
I think they're underrated.
(45:06):
I think a lot of people overlook how intelligent they are.
Um, let's see other birds and level of intelligence.
A lot more, I would think a lot more, uh, complexity to their social dynamics than some
other species.
Yeah, they certainly are.
Um, I mean, because there's such a social bird, it is complex.
(45:28):
Um, well, it's so hard to work out.
No.
Yeah.
I was just going to say like with other species that I've been around and interacted with
and observed, like I mentioned, they might have personalities and quirks, but I've never
quite seen any other type of bird be so intentional in the way that that turkeys are.
Um, so I would say they're very intentional, they're very observant and there are other
(45:53):
intelligent birds out there, but because of, you know, how social they are, it creates
a really unique, um, you know, what's the word I'm looking for?
Really unique personality that you'll, you'll find in any given turkey.
Yeah.
I mean, the degree of their individuality is higher than some other species you could
(46:14):
say.
Well, I was going to say it, it's so hard to work out, like I'm thinking of all these
examples and, and hearing the, the, uh, stuff that you're sharing, Ava, and I'm trying to
work out, okay, is that actually a form of intelligence or is it like part of their innate
weariness?
(46:35):
You know, like, are they just genetically programmed to be observant of everything
or, you know, are they learning to, like, I guess that's what I'm coming back to, what,
to what degree are they learning to, to, to adapt to their situation versus, versus it
(46:57):
being just like an innate capability?
Yeah, I would say, um, so much of what they do is innate and I know you and Kelly have
talked about like trying to teach the poults to hunt specific or show them specific bugs
and allow them to realize that, hey, this is a really good food source.
(47:17):
But for me personally, during the trial, there were so few things that I taught them how
to do.
Really the only thing was I taught them how to drink.
So, um, I really do think their instincts are, carry them pretty far, um, and then their,
their ability to observe works to their benefit, but I really think they have incredible instincts.
(47:39):
Yeah, that's what I would like to, to push on a little bit with the, the learning part
of it.
And then how, you know, you can also, during that same process, get at some of the memory
capability and that sort of thing, but, um, yeah, going back to when we were talking about
(48:01):
the vocalizations, I mean, you know, with, with humans, we learn language and you can
learn, you know, depending on where you're born and what language is spoken, you can
learn different kinds, right?
There are plenty of examples where people did not have that opportunity early in life
and didn't learn to speak or didn't learn a language.
(48:25):
And then I think about them, like they just come out of the egg and everybody knows to
putt when they say something that's not right.
And we also have, you know, these broods never, some of them never met each other, right?
They didn't learn it from somebody else.
They just all knew to do that.
(48:47):
So it is remarkable, like there are definitely some things that are just like part of the
scaffolding, right?
I think this is what it means to be a turkey when you come out of the egg and they need
no learning.
But then, uh, you know, there, there are other examples that are kind of abnormal, like the
drinking where, yeah, they may not be programmed to do that specific action, but they are programmed
(49:13):
to know they need water.
Yeah, I guess, go ahead, Eva.
I was just going to say, it is, uh, it's an interesting combination because sometimes
when one bird alerts to something, it will attract the other ones.
And maybe this comes down to, again, those really fine scale details of what, what single
(49:34):
tone of putt versus a different tone of putt and which one allows them to call over the
other birds and show them something versus I've also noticed sometimes one individual
will putt at something and it doesn't attract the other birds.
So again, there's just those minute details that we probably cannot hear, but sometimes
do turn into like, you know, one bird is learning from another one using the information that
(50:00):
we know what this noise means.
But when I say it in this tone, hey, it's actually serious.
You should come over here.
Or like, oh, that guy's ridiculous.
I don't know why he's alerting to that piece of grass, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess I've been guilty in the past because they are so instinctual, um, that
(50:22):
I thought, you know, they're a pretty simple animal in the sense that they kind of come
out with this set of instructions, hardwired, you know, and it's just like, they have a
handful of vocalizations and a handful of behaviors and then that's it.
But now some of the, the adaptability or the plasticity that you're talking about is challenging
(50:43):
that for me now, you know?
So it's fascinating.
Yeah.
They all come out with the rule book and then they kind of make their own rules as they
go along with each other.
And yeah, it's amazing how it's so tied to their social network.
(51:03):
Yeah, there's been so many examples of things like, you know, I think I mentioned something
related to this, but it kind of stuck with me as well.
They had a particular set of vocalizations when they find something really good to eat.
(51:24):
But at least in the first several days, I just was kind of struck by this, that everybody
knew to do the same sort of sound, like to the degree that I know, oh, they call something
good over there, but nobody else responded to that.
So everybody knows to do that, but nobody actually responded and, you know, knows to
(51:48):
run over there and try to steal it.
And then my great purple banded bird was the first one that kind of started taking an interest
in what everybody else was doing and became my quote unquote mischievous bird.
But that was kind of a different kind of example where everybody had the blueprint.
(52:12):
They all know that's what you do when you find a mole cricket, but it also didn't seem
to be attracting everybody like they all have thought through, oh, that means somebody else
found the mole cricket.
I need to go try to steal it.
And, but that changed pretty quickly, you know, later in the trial.
So it seemed like they learned that that was the response.
(52:34):
So it's just, it's really confusing to try to work through because it's so complex.
Well, and it's also kind of surprising that they wouldn't be more selfish and not vocalize
when they find something.
Yeah.
Because it turns into a rabbit chase every time.
Yeah.
When that's what I kind of thought from Blueberry is Blueberry always had everything stolen
(52:55):
from her, so she never vocalized at all, and she was always over by herself.
Yeah.
She found a lot of stuff.
So she did decide to take that strategy.
I mean, it may just be variation, you know, like there was definitely a lot of variation
in how vocal mine were, and I assume with everybody's that was the case, but I don't
(53:17):
know.
It's just a really intriguing time and, you know, we're getting to live in the middle
of it, and that's really cool.
Yeah.
I've definitely noticed the older birds, if they find something good, they take it
off in secret.
They're not going to announce that.
They don't.
Yeah.
They stop announcing it.
Nice.
(53:38):
Good for them.
Sounds like Knight's strategy is just go stand in the middle of the food bubble.
Yeah.
Fruit for Knight, you just stand inside the food dish, and nobody can do anything about
it.
Yeah.
Who's going to move it?
Yeah.
What you got?
Yeah.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah.
I've even seen them, like, tilt the food dish toward themselves, like they'll stand on
(54:00):
the one end, so they can have it.
Yeah.
Just get it done.
Yeah.
It's ridiculous.
They're so greedy.
Well, the other thing, when you start talking about food, it gave me another example that
has stuck with me, like they just all know not to eat fuzzy caterpillars, and they all
know not to eat lover grasshoppers, and they don't have to be taught that, they just know
(54:25):
not to do that, because it's so wild that there are some things that they just come
out knowing that, to me, seem like complex thought, but it's really hard to work out
which it is.
Sorry.
Go ahead, Ava.
No, I mean, I know that so many different animals, they recognize that bright coloration
(54:49):
means toxic, but it's just incredible that, like, what's going through their head when
they see specific critters that they know are bad, is it anything more than the fact
that they might be brightly colored, or do they have, like, this almost catalog of suspicious
items to avoid?
One of the things, apparently, they didn't realize is that you shouldn't stand in a fire
(55:10):
ant hill.
For the first time the other day, I saw one of my birds go walk right in it, yellow bird,
and, I mean, just to tease him, it was pretty funny, him jumping around, trying to, like,
shake him off, and I had to help him get a few, but, yeah, hilariously, they didn't
quite know about that.
Did he eat any, or did he just try to shake him off?
(55:34):
I didn't notice that he was over there until he started jumping around, so I'm not sure
if he was attracted because he went up to them, or if he's just like me, and didn't
realize that it's an ant hill, and you're standing in it.
Yeah.
It sounds just like my five-year-old.
Yeah.
They're so silly.
(55:55):
Yeah.
Well, there are a few people that comment this all the time online, so there are a lot
of people that think fire ants have led to the demise of ground-nesting birds.
Oh, I mean, actually, on that point, fire ants are, they can kill young birds, for sure.
(56:22):
I think it's quite crazy, you know, taking it back to, I talked about this at the very
opening when I was working on an American Kestrel project, you know, we would have cases
where those birds are obviously cavity nesters, and they're stuck where they are.
But if fire ants find you, they can kill you and cause deformities and all of that, so
(56:43):
really, yeah, it's a shame that some of these young animals do have to deal with them, because
they're pretty intense.
I think we talked about it, Will, on the air, one of my poults got bitten by an ant early,
it was like day four or five in the trial, and it ran around vocalizing, kind of erratic
(57:06):
and not hunting for a while.
Wow.
Do you know how many bites it got, or no way to tell?
No, it bit the ant on the poult, and it was like in the web of its foot, and it was preoccupied
with that for a while, and it was kind of like not behaving like it should be.
(57:30):
It wasn't foraging, it was being erratic, and it was also being loud, and I just could
see where that could be a problem, and it, you know, stuck with me.
Not good news.
Yeah, I mean, you think about a predator being within an earshot of that, I mean, that's
a dinner bell.
Sure, yeah, big distraction.
(57:50):
Yeah, so I'd kind of, I know that fire ants can cause problems for some species, but I
had kind of dismissed that for poults, because they could just eat the ants, I mean, you
know, they might accidentally stand in the ant hill, but it's not going to kill them,
(58:14):
but in that case, it could definitely make them more vulnerable.
Sure.
Did you notice anything like that with Yellowbird, where he was noticeably distracted?
Yeah, he was certainly distracted for quite a few minutes, and I think he couldn't quite,
because they're so tiny, he couldn't quite find them on himself, and he was trying to
(58:37):
get his band off, and clean a little bit, and you know how fire ants are, they'll bite
you for a second, and then stop, and bite you again, and then you're startled by that,
so it certainly was distracting him for a couple of minutes, and I can totally see how
that's an opportunity for somebody to come in and take advantage of that situation, and
(58:58):
after that, you know, he was pretty avoidant, but strangely enough, you know, the other
birds are walking around, and some of them were going over to the ant hill, and I was
like, don't stand there, did you not just see that, like, you're going to get bit, so.
Some of us have to learn the hard way.
Yeah, he didn't, he was too distracted to turn it into a learning opportunity for the
(59:19):
other birds.
Now we're back to their intelligence again, like, everybody goes and stands in the ant
hill.
Yeah.
Oh man, this is so fun, I'm fascinated by all this, and I'm just learning so much, I'm
(59:40):
appreciative of you, Ava, and your work, and that, you know, you're dedicating so much
of your life to this stuff, because I think we're, it's going to continue to open up a
bunch of doors, I mean, there's so many things that Marcus and I have discussed since he
opened this facility that, you know, we just never would have thought about before.
Yeah, it's an incredible feat, and I'm really proud of everybody on our team, very proud
(01:00:05):
of myself and what I've been able to do, and it takes a very serious level of dedication.
I think it's incredible that we not only might be able to discover some amazing trends in
this data that could help the species, of course, but even taking it down to the level
of so many opportunities we've taken from 100% failure to success, you know, hens that
(01:00:28):
have, of course, risked their lives and died as a result of, you know, trying to give these
eggs a chance, and we're able to raise them, I mean, it's just an incredible privilege,
and I take that very seriously, so, you know, there's so many different aspects of what
we can achieve through this, and each of us are so dedicated to making sure that they're
(01:00:50):
happy and healthy.
Yeah, glad y'all are doing it.
Yeah, it has been a fun thing to watch, watch all the, I mean, most of the team were not
real turkey enthusiasts specifically, but now you can see it, like this experience has
changed everybody to, you know, really care for the species and conservation and everything,
(01:01:16):
so it's been fun to watch that.
And seeing the dedication, there's no question that it's taken a lot of dedication from a
lot of people.
Yeah, for sure, it's incredible.
Well, did we miss anything, Ava, anything that you want to share or leave the audience
(01:01:38):
with?
Yeah, I feel like that was a good closing note, it's just that, you know, we all are
super dedicated to this, it shows, and I think everything we've been able to learn and collect,
whether that's anecdotally or, you know, via this plethora of information that we have
is really going to make an impact.
(01:01:58):
It's something that I'll never forget for like the rest of my life, and I'll be able
to carry this through my career, and it's just really a great time.
That's awesome, well thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences with us today,
we appreciate it.
Yeah, I'm sure we'll have to revisit because things are changing so fast, you know, we
(01:02:22):
could probably do it in a few weeks and have a completely new conversation about it.
Oh yeah, yeah, and if this, of course, we plan to continue this on for possibly years
to come, it'll be so exciting to see these birds into maturity, and you know, will their
personalities change, will Night be the biggest forever, or will Yellowbird be a major contender,
(01:02:44):
like, it's kind of like an exciting journey that we're on here.
It's like a soap opera.
Yeah, go like Yellowbird, let's go sneak in.
I feel like you're leaving us with a teaser for the end of a TV series, you know, it's
like, will Night continue to dominate?
Yeah, for sure.
(01:03:06):
That's so fun.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, thanks for coming to do this, thanks everybody out there for listening, we really
appreciate it.
If you guys want us to continue down the Polt Road, we're happy to do that, we're like four,
five, six episodes in now focused on that, but people are saying they want to keep hearing
(01:03:29):
about it, and I think that's a testament to, you know, how novel this is, the information
that's coming from it, and you know, thank you Ava for coming on and sharing your knowledge
and for everything you've done for the project and for Turkey, so I think everybody appreciates
that.
Yeah, thanks for having me, it was super fun.
(01:03:50):
Thanks Ava.
Wild Turkey Science is part of the Natural Resources University podcast network and is
made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow, a grassroots organization dedicated to the wild turkey.
To learn more about TFT, check out turkeysfortomorrow.org.
(01:04:11):
you
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