Episode 227: Ellen van Neerven

On Episode 228 of Women's World Football Show, we sit down with award-winning author Ellen van Neerven to discuss their fascinating book, "Personal Score: Sport, Culture, Identity."

Ellen takes us on a captivating journey through the intersection of sport, culture, and identity, offering unique insights into the role of women in football and the broader sporting world. From their own experiences as an Indigenous Australian to the untold stories of women's involvement in sports, Ellen sheds light on the power of literature in amplifying diverse voices and driving meaningful change within the sports industry.

Join us as we explore the themes of empowerment, representation, and inclusivity in women's football, and discover how "Personal Score" challenges traditional narratives and sparks important conversations about gender equality and diversity on and off the field. Don't miss this insightful conversation with Ellen van Neerven, available now only on Women's World Football Show!

Episode Links
Buy “Personal Score: Sport, Culture, Identity” on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Personal-Score-Ellen-Van-Neerven/dp/1953387454

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Original Broadcast Date: May 11, 2024

Women’s World Football Show is hosted, written, edited, and produced by Patty La Bella.

Additional assistance for this episode by Brett Gregory at Two Dollar Media.

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Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Hey, everybody, Welcome to anotherexciting episode of Women's World Football Show.
I'm your host, Patty. Greatto be here with you. I'm excited
to talk about women's soccer today.And we have like a great guest on,
not like a great guest we havean actual great guest on, but
so great that you're here with us, and as always, just happy to

(00:31):
share the world of women's soccer allover the world. And if you're in
the United States right now, I'msure you're enjoying all the NWSL stuff.
I mean exciting times for the NWSL, right, I mean, I don't
know if you've been following it,but I mean, who to funk it?
Right? Casey Current at the topof the table, and right below
them Orlando Pride. Unbelievable, right, an is having a great season.

(00:55):
What's the secret? Who knows?But Casey Current Orland Pride. I think
big, big surprises. Maybe notso much the Current, but I mean,
in fact, they're at the topof the leader board and they're really
doing great. I think you couldsay it's a little bit of a surprise.
Washington Spirit, Portland Thorn's coming rightup behind them. Not too big
of a surprise. But I don'tknow, remember the days when it was

(01:18):
just the Thorns and the courage.I mean, that was it, right,
and now we've got all so muchgreat competition. And then on the
other side of the table, SeattleRain down there in the eleventh spot right
now as we're recording this, alongwith the BAYFC, Houston Dash in Utah
Royals. But you know, there'sstill a lot left in the season.
That's so great about the NWSL season. It's it's a long season and we

(01:42):
might see some different you know,we're gonna see some lineup changes and things
as we get closer to the Olympicsand stuff. And if you're in England,
I hope you're getting ready for thebig FA Cup final between Manchester United
and Tottenham. I am. Ihave my alarm set get up early as
a recording this. It's a fewdays out and probably by the time you

(02:02):
listen to this it'll all be over. But yeah, I'll be watching that
match. It's going to be sogreat. And I actually have a friend
who's going to the match and he'skind of a neutral fan, but I
think he's actually a man United fan, but he doesn't want to admit to
it. But anyway, so I'mlooking forward to getting some pictures from him,
and if you check out our Instagram, hopefully i'll have those up there

(02:23):
as well. So a lot ofgood stuff happening in women's soccer. And
as you know, I mean,if you've listened to the show for quite
a while, you probably know thatI am a women's soccer geek. When
it comes to books, I havea whole library of books centered on women's
soccer, biographies, stories, fiction, stories, nonfiction. It doesn't matter,

(02:43):
I'll I'll buy pictorials, comics,whatever they are, I'll buy them.
And I'm so so excited to introducea very special guest on this show.
Ellen van Nirvin is on. Hejust wrote a great book called Personal
Scoreport Culture Identity. I have totell you it's unlike any soccer book women

(03:06):
or otherwise that you've probably ever read. It is women's soccer and its culture
in Australia. It's so so interestingand there's so much history there. Like
when you think of women's soccer history, I mean a lot of us will
think about England of course, andthen also Italy, very very long history

(03:27):
for women's soccer, the United Statesof course, but not so much Australia,
but you will be pleasantly surprised toknow that there was a long,
rich history of women's soccer in Australiagoes way back, and Ellen van Nervin
is here to talk to us aboutthat, educate us, entertain us.
And I'm telling you it's not oftenand I told this to Ellen, it's

(03:47):
not often that we have an awardwinning author on the show, got a
whole portfolio of award winning pieces andstepped into the women's soccer arena for good
reasons, because they're very interested inthat. They've lived their life surrounded by
football, whether it be men orwomen's football, and they're just really excited

(04:11):
about the game and the history andthe culture. And I guarantee you that
after you hear from Ellen, andyou know, we talk about their book,
it will change the way you lookat women's football, at football,
actually maybe even at sport sport ingeneral. I know it did for me.
It really shifted my view on thegame and connected it in ways that

(04:35):
I never thought about. So mindexpanding here on Women's World Football Show.
It doesn't happen very often. Usuallyit's mind numbing, right, But today's
mind expanding with Ellen Van Nirvin.So great. If you're even somewhat interested
in the women's game in Australia andNew Zealand, you will love, love,

(04:57):
love this interview and you will bein sp I guarantee it inspired to
go out and buy their book,Personal Score Sport Culture Identity. Weaves like
so many different stories into the game. It's such an interesting, dynamic look
at a game that we all knowand love and you know, we think

(05:18):
we know and we think, youknow, we know, we love it,
but it's like we think we knowit, but there's just so much
to learn and it's just so sofascinating. So let's get into it.
Let's not waste any time. Let'shear from our guest. I'm so honored
to have them here. Please welcomeauthor, award winning author of Personal Score,

(05:39):
Sport Culture Identity. Please welcome EllenVan Nirvin. Hi Allen, thank
you so much for coming on theshow. It's not often we get an
award winning author on our show,so thank you for bringing some culture to
our podcast. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much. Patty, so
lovely to be here, and youknow, I have to say congratulations on
this amazing book, personal score,sport, culture, identity. It's unlike

(06:02):
any and I'm doing air quotes footballbook that I've ever read, because it's
really so much more than that,so so interesting. But before we get
started to have so many questions foryou, tell us a little bit about
your background, like where are youfrom? You know, just give people
like a little Ellen Baio bite sizebio if you oh cool, Yeah,

(06:25):
absolutely so. I'm from Australia.I'm from the East Coast of Australia.
Grew up in a place called Brisbanewhich is also known as Yago and turbule
Land. And I have Indigenous backgroundthrough my mum. Both my mum's parents

(06:46):
Man and Jelli, from an areatoday known as Bodesert, which is just
south of Brisbane, and my dad'sDutch from a town in the Netherlands called
Milo. And I grew up ina really big family, both sides of
the family, really big. AndI grew up loving sport, particularly football

(07:11):
soccer, and also loving writing.So this book in a way is a
combination of the both. How coolis it to be able to combine those
two Because, like I said,you have your previous works not really touch
upon football, right, But howwas that for you? What kind of
inspired you to write this book rightnow? Yeah? So yeah, prior

(07:32):
to this was a writer known forpoetry and fiction, so this is again
another genre for me, and Ijust had so many memories and I was
writing these vignettes about my memories growingup playing and the complicated joy that it

(07:54):
gave me. And we had theWomen's World Cup come to Australia and Tiro
in New Zealand in our winter oftwenty twenty three, and there was this
palpable excitement and anticipation in the yearsleading up to this big major tournament,
which was the biggest yet, andit was such a joy and such a

(08:16):
ride that we all got to experience. But I was writing this book prior
to that, thinking about wanted towrite something that was both personal but also
spoke to sport as being inherently politicalfrom an indigenous and queer perspective. Did
you feel like, because I've gota whole bookshelf of books about women's soccer

(08:39):
and women's athletes and they're all,you know, inspiring in their own way,
did you feel like you had toWas there a book like what you
wrote? Nothing? Right? So, like you had to write this book
because no one else was writing aboutthese things, right, Yeah, you
talk about the bookshelf. Yeah,I had bookshelf of you know, women's
sports, books, indigenous sports,it's books, general history, all the

(09:01):
books, you know, but nothingthat brought it all together in the way
that I wanted to, which againis from a very personal perspective. I
was trying to explain the book tosomebody and it was really difficult for me.
I'm like, you have to readit, because you can't. The
way I look at it right nowis like I feel like, here's like

(09:22):
football is in the middle. It'slike football is the corona, and then
you have these little strands coming away, and those strands lead to like culture,
environment, history, equality, Imean, just all these things all
in the context, interwoven into football. It's such an amazing piece of work

(09:43):
that you did. I'm highly impressedand I'm excited about it, and I'm
excited to talk about it. Whenyou take a look at all of this
and I'm just trying to paint apicture for people, and you know,
I think, well, this isquite a departure from your previous works,
but it really isn't because you aretalking about all these things in the context
of soccer, of women's football,along with all these things. Why did

(10:07):
you think it was important to takea look at all these things in the
context of this sport. Yeah,I really wanted to draw attention to the
fact that everything is connected. Forus as Indigenous people, land always comes
first, you know, land andwaters is the first thing that we acknowledge

(10:28):
because you know, we are ofthe land. So when we think about
playing sport on indigenous land, everythingis connected. Identity, culture, gender
history. Really really appreciate that youtook that from it because it is a
weave and I think so often wetry and separate things from what they are,

(10:52):
and for me, it was reallyimportant to really challenge what a sports
book could be because it can beanything, and sport is related to every
aspect of our lives. It's it'sdone so well, I mean, and
I have to tell you, like, I'm I feel like reading it,
I was like so educated, likeI'm learning something. I'm you know,

(11:16):
California born and raised. I'm like, it's far removed from Indigenous Australia as
you can be, but there isa connection because we too have a history
like that in California as you probablyknow, and indigenous people and the way
they were treated when the Spaniards cameand everything. I mean, we can
even go back, and it reallymade me like look at it in a

(11:37):
different lens, like all the thingsyou talked about, like I don't I
don't, I don't say it doesn'treally matter where you're from. You can
get so much out of this.It makes you just look at things so
much different. Is that kind ofwhat you were aiming for? Because sometimes
I feel like I'm reading a historybook and sometimes I feel like I'm reading
a personal diary. You know,it's like very very personal. Absolutely,

(11:58):
it really does jump around. It'sawesome. I think I was interested in
the you know, the micro,so you know, really talking about a
very you know, personal experience andthen the macro and going into talking about
history and politics. And yeah,some of it is specific to where I

(12:20):
grew up, but like you said, I think it's so applicable to to
everywhere, and sport was such agreat vessel to do that, and I
think it's relatable especially to our listenersout there who you know, are crazy
about the sport, because it's notI'm just reading a book about your story

(12:41):
and your experience. I am,but I'm also relating it to mine and
in my environment as well, andI think many people will take that as
well. And I love that that'slike so unique. You know, I've
interviewed a lot of women footballers overthe years and I asked them this question,
and I'm going to ask you thisquestion because it just kind of struck.

(13:01):
It struck me and still it stillstays with me. When I was
reading this book, something jumped outat me. So, you know,
all these women footballers that I thatI interview, I always kind of ask,
you know, what was it aboutfootball? What was it about soccer
that drew you in that made youwant to spend your life playing it?
What was it that attracted you?What was it the draw? And nine

(13:24):
times out of ten they will say, if maybe not, nine point nine
times they'll always say, I lovethe camaraderie. I love my teammates,
I love the fun. We're alwayslaughing and they're my best friends. They're
like my family. Like I don'teven know Ellen, how many times I've
heard that. But then you comealong and you're like, well, yeah,
I love this sport, but youknow, it's not always like that.

(13:46):
It's not always fun and having agreat time because, like we all
know, girls can be mean.And when you have a section in this
book and I think it's so importantfor young kids, it's, like I
said, it just really struck mebecause not everybody's experience is like, yeah,
laughing fun. Some people can bebullied, right, Some kids are
bullied, some you know, girlsare mean to other girls. Why do

(14:09):
you think it? Why was itimportant for you to talk about that underlying
aspect of the game that exists andsometimes it pushes kids out. Yeah,
that's why I wrote it because Ithink there's so many that share that experience
of maybe loving sport, loving playingsoccer, loving playing whatever sport it is,

(14:30):
but then having you know, negativeexperiences that turn them off playing the
game, that mean that they nolonger want to be around the sport,
that they sort of you know,drop out of the team for various reasons.
And I've talked to so many myreaders who had experiences like that,

(14:52):
whether it's being picked on for whateverreason, especially you know at a formative
age, kids can be so crueland the sort of heightened attention that sport
brings to the body, and Ithink and also being in such environments that

(15:13):
can be both really close knit andwarm and loving, but they can also
be quite harmful as well in termsof the dynamics between groups. Yeah,
I sort of talked about some ofmy own experiences, but then I also

(15:35):
think about my trajectory as someone whothen went to play in teams where I
did feel really accepted and loved atat an older age, where it didn't
matter whether you're queer or straight,or what race you were, or your

(15:56):
ability or what you could bring tothe team. Everyone was so accepting and
it was like a family. SoI talk about that a little bit later
in the book. And that's alsothe experience that some people have talked to
me about how being like hey,well sport wasn't so great when I was
a young person, but now I'molder, I'm finding my own way in

(16:18):
and I'm finding my people, soit can be a place where we can
heal and be restored and gain confidence. Again. We'll hear more from Ellen
van Nirvn after this short break.Another cool thing that I loved about your

(16:53):
book is the look into the peoplewho came before in the history and that
kind of stuff I just eat upbecause it's just something new to me.
I've never heard these stories before,and I was wondering, if did you
learn anything new about the culture ofwomen in sports or within the indigenous communities,

(17:14):
something that surprised you or something thatyou didn't know about. Yeah.
I did some research into indigenous traditionalsports and found that many were inclusive of
gender and played by people of allages, which I thought was really really
beautiful. And there's a level ofcare and materiality in making say possum skin

(17:41):
footballs that were that's you know,predominantly women's work. And then I sort
of was told this really interesting storyabout how I was like, I wonder
why, why did there's a specificcommunity in this place off the coast of
SPM called men Juruba or North StradbrokeIsland, and the indigenous women on this

(18:06):
island just got really good at cricketand I didn't I couldn't figure out why.
And then I was told that sothis place was formerly a mission or
reserve, which I think to usaudiences is similar context to reservations, and
so this island was a mission,was also a sand mine and also a

(18:29):
place where they had an asylum andwhen all the men were off at war,
the indigenous women played cricket with thepeople from the asylum and got really
good at the sport. And twoof those women, two sisters, went
on to play for Australia. Sothat was a really interesting sort of story.

(18:52):
I have many of those where youknow, sport history, culture and
connection and legacy sort of coexist.Goes so far back, doesn't it.
Were you surprised at how far back? Yeah, absolutely, there's lots of
different lays of history. Australia isoften sort of seen as a new country,

(19:15):
but you know, we're very veryvery old, very very old country
with very very old culture and manydifferent cultures. So and there's just so
many stories that I feel well,most you know, non Indigenous Australians don't
even know. So it's really forme, it's really important to sort of

(19:37):
bring those stories into life for sure, which is why we're celebrating your book.
I mean it is very cool.You know, women footballers in this
country, in the US and Iknow in Australia as well, are often
associated with promoting equality and gender rights, human rights, trans rights, and
you touch on that in your book. As well. Well, why do

(20:00):
you think that often all this landson the shoulders of women footballers to be
advocates? You know, they're likethe disruptors, I want to say women
footballers, like over just women athletes, because it was soccer players who's really
kind of carrying all of this?And do you have a do you have
a theory as to why, asto why why football and why as opposed

(20:23):
to the other sports? Well?Yeah, I think, you know,
for example, the US national teamfought so hard for the equal pay and
the equal rights, but you know, of course there's still so much discrimination
that exists. And I really feelfor athletes because they're they're you know,

(20:44):
they're athletes, but then they alsohave to be advocates, both for themselves
and for others, and it mustbe so tiring and bodhisom. Why it
sort of falls on their shoulders?I think because the systems and structures are
often so unjust and supportive. Theythemselves inherently know the struggle better than anyone
else, and they can articulate thestruggles of whether it's you know, pay

(21:10):
in other conditions, or whether it'sthe you know, the misogyny and the
harassment that we saw at it thatcame out of the Spanish national team.
Some of those really shocking things areso public as well. They were saying,
you know, this is what we'vebeen saying for so long. This
is it's sort of manifesting in sucha such a full on way. I

(21:30):
think women footballers just have such strongvoices and are so savvy, but they
have to be in terms of beingpart of this advocacy work, and it
is a shame that the burden liesso heavily on them. Yeah, somebody
told me recently. They were like, well, I like Megan Rapino,

(21:52):
but why does she have to beso political? It's like she's using her
platform, Like what is supposed todo with it? Just talk about clothes
and you know, tennis shoes.I see what you're saying. It is
it is burdensome, but they've putit, They've taken their platform and are
doing the right thing. I guess, thank goodness. Yeah absolutely. Yeah.

(22:17):
So in that, in that context, how do you think that football
contributes to just the overall empowering ofwomen and especially young girls and in challenging
those traditional not just the traditional genderroles, but challenging that discrimination and that
hatred, like both on and offthe pitch. How do you think that
football kind of contributes to that?It's so cool, Like the Matilda's are

(22:41):
Australia's most loved sports team, likejust full stop, no gender qualifier in
that everybody is obsessed with the Matilda's. There's selling out stadiums and everyone's watching
them on TV and people of allages and girls and boys are wearing Matilda's

(23:03):
jerseys, which has been it's beensuch a big turnaround from you know,
twenty years ago where we really struggledto watch televised matches on TV and girls
couldn't find a team to be partof. I mean that's still happening because
participation rates have gone through the roofand so still you know issues around girls

(23:26):
playing and wanting to play but notbeing able to find a team, but
things that the visibility has really justchanged things a lot. There's such role
models for the younger generation, whetherthe football ballers or anyone who wants to
aspire to doing something. Just thestrength and the flare and the determination and

(23:51):
also the teamwork and the relationships thatthe sport brings I think is just inspiring.
So yeah, I think You're right. I think we're sort of seeing
like this transformation, sort of anempowerment era that I think can really well

(24:11):
is shaking things up, and Ithink we'll continue to shake things up during
the World Cup. Did you oftenthink like how different my life would have
been if I had, like ifI was able to watch The Matilda when
I was like nine or ten.Yeah, that's such an interesting question.
I you know, I was withactually my friends California. We went to
see a few games together, andI could see the emotion on her face,

(24:37):
and I could see she's a littlebit older than me as well,
and I could see, you know, what it meant to so many people.
But I felt I felt so Ifelt like I couldn't even go there,
I think because I think there's justso much entangled in those emotions of
looking back and thinking what if?And so I'm just really grateful that we've

(25:03):
arrived here and that women's footballers reachedsuch a global platform and it's breaking every
barrier. But I think, yeah, I really don't go back and sort
of think what if? Do you? Sometimes? I do? You know,
I grew up followed like you.I grew up following men, men
sports here. I was a bigbaseball fan, but like they were my

(25:26):
heroes, like the men were.If I had the choice at the time,
I think my whole life would havebeen on a different trajectory really,
because when you watch them and thesame with like during the World Cup,
just watching them Matilda's and their theirdetermination that they wanted to win. I
mean, if anybody wanted to win, it was it was them, Like

(25:48):
they just they wore it on theirsleeve. And you look in the stands
and you see men and their sons, and I mean it's like we're not
watching women football, you know,we're watching football watching football. Yeah,
you know. So sometimes I dothink about that because I was like,
dang, I had to be afan of men's sports because I didn't have
a choice. But I never thoughtof it any other way, right,

(26:08):
I was like that, you know, yeah, my team, right,
my guys, you know. Butoh wow, we're in a better place
today, I think still, likeyou said, we have a long ways
to go. What do you hopethat readers take away from Personal Score,
Like, what conversations do you hopewill come about, like from people reading

(26:30):
this book. Yeah, I hopepeople find what they want out of it.
I think that'd be different from personto person. I think that there's
you know, a lot of learningthat I experienced while writing the book as
well, and I think I hadquestions, but I didn't necessarily have answers.
So I think this book can bea book that can make readers think

(26:53):
about their own questions and their ownanswers. There's readers that sort of gravitate
towards the queer representation in the book. There's readers that are interested in the
conversations around land. I also talkabout chronic illness in this work, which
some people have told me that they'veappreciated. And then, you know,

(27:14):
I think in terms of the conversationhere in Australia, and I'm sure it's
unfortunate. It's unfortunate that it's sucha conversation because racism and in our game
is an ongoing issue through all levelsof the game. And so I've been
involved a little bit in sort ofthinking about what we can do. It's

(27:36):
such a big question, but youknow, we would talk about how to
reckon with a shameful pass and builda better and more just future, and
we need more avenues to address racismin all levels of the game with meaningful
and restorative action, and there definitelyneeds to be more education around that space.

(27:56):
So that's a conversation that I'm partof and that this book is a
part of. Well, you're avery important voice, I think in all
these things and that you're bringing ina different community just having football be part
of it. I mean, Iappreciate it. I know that our listeners
will appreciate it too. It's anawesome book. I feel like I have
to read it again because there's somuch to it. It really is.

(28:19):
I want to get like a bookclub going, because I'm sure there's other
things that I've completely missed or wentover my head. But yeah, I
just really encourage everyone to pick itup. And it's available now, right.
We'll have a few links on ourshow notes so people can can order
it. And I'm just looking forwardto hearing all the feedback that I get
from it, because it is oneof those books that that needs to be

(28:41):
discussed. Yeah, well, thankyou. Thank you for taking the time
on your busy schedule to talk withus to tell us your story and the
story of this awesome book. Weappreciate your advocacy in this world as well
and allowing us to enter your worldas well too. We really appreciate it.
So thank you for coming on.Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
Thanks so interesting, right, Ilove this interview so much. And

(29:04):
I mean, like I said,like I've got a whole library of books,
but I have none quite like PersonalScore. It's it's so amazing.
I mean, it's like you know, you're you're transported. First of all,
you're transported back in time. Thenyou're getting a glimpse into this one
person's football journey, which you know, we all have a football journey,

(29:25):
whether we play or not. Youknow, whether we played as children or
whether you know we're just fans.I mean, this is our journey,
right, whether you've never played,but you've always been a fan, that's
your journey, right, And sowe get a glimpse of their journey,
get a glimpse into the heritage andculture of Indigenous Australia and how it weaves
back into the sport. I mean, I'm telling you, it's just such

(29:48):
a fascinating book. You won't beable to put it down. And it
is one of those books that youcan go to at different times and kind
of like you don't have to readit cover to cover, like you can
go in and just like skim throughand read different sections and go back and
go back and forth. I mean, it's an amazing read. I'm as
you can tell, I'm very excitedabout it and so excited that Ellen came

(30:10):
on to do the show and talkabout this book and talk about their life
and just amazing. I want togive a big shout out to Elan for
coming on. I really appreciate itwith an author, I love talking to
authors, you know why, becauseI'm like a frustrated author. I wish
I could could have been an author. Now Chat GPT is just routing that

(30:30):
for me, I guess, buthey, big thanks to Ellen for coming
on, Big things. Also toBrett Gregory at two dollars Radio for helping
us set that interview up. ThanksBrett for all your help and hard work
and patience as we did this.So great, so so just a pleasure
and a surprise that Ellen came on. I couldn't believe it. Just love

(30:52):
it and it gets me excited totalk more about the Matilda's and about women's
football in Australia. To get Sheryldowns back on the show pretty soon.
I've got her on my speed dialright now, because you know, after
Women's World Cup, I mean wewere so like inundated with Australia and women's

(31:12):
Australia and New Zealand and women's footballand what the team was doing, what
the players were doing, and yetthere's just so many layers to it,
right when we talk about Indigenous Australiaand you know, the land and the
culture and identity and all of that, it's all woven together. And Ellen

(31:33):
does such a great job. Soplease go out and buy the book.
It's available on Amazon. I'll havethe link in our show notes and you
can go ahead and check that out. So I hope you do, because
it definitely opened my eyes and mademe think about soccer in a different way,
I guess, And that's always good, right you never. I mean,

(31:55):
it's always so surprising to me afteryears and years of doing this show
as how many new things there are. It's like watching like a really good
movie over and over again, likeyou just keep picking up other things that
you miss the first time around.And I feel like this book does this.
It really kind of opens your eyes. It makes you look at the
game a little different and it's veryvery interesting anyway, So I'm glad that

(32:17):
you guys join me. I'm hopingthat you're enjoying, like I said,
all the soccer going off, andas we lead up to the Olympics,
we'll have more player interviews and pressconferences and things like that. But I
think it's a really good time tokind of sit back and see where we
came from, right and appreciate allthose who came before us and what it
means to the sport and to ourselvesas fans. So really great And with

(32:43):
that, I hope that you reallyenjoyed episode twenty seven, a Women's Rold
Football Show. I would love tohear your thoughts on my interview with award
winning author Ellen Van Nirvan. Feelfree to email me at Pattie at WWF
showed dot com. I read allyour emails and I do my best replying
in a timely manner. If youdid enjoy this episode, subscribe now on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio app, Google Play, tuned In, Castbox,

(33:07):
Freaker, Stitcher, wwfshow dot com, or wherever you're listening to this
right now. And if you reallyreally enjoy listening to Women's Rold Football Show.
One of the best ways you couldshow your appreciation is to give us
a five star rating and leave areview wherever you listen. I always love
to know your thoughts and reviews arethe best ways for others to find the
show. Also, another way tohelp grow the show and grow this beautiful

(33:29):
game that we love is to tellyour friends and family about Women's Role Football
Show. If you're listening on mobiledevice, swipe over the cover art and
you'll find episode notes, including somedetails you may have missed. For relative
links from this episode, visit ourshow notes on WWF show dot com.
Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok at WWF Show. Women's

(33:49):
Role Football Show is hosted, written, edited, and produced by Patti Labella.
That's Me. Additional assistance for thisepisode by our friend Brett Gregory at
two Dollars Radio. Thanks Brett,and thank you, Thank you, especially
you for joining me on this excitingjourney through women's football. Stay strong,
stay mindful, keep loving your heart, and we'll see y'all next time. H