December 31, 2024 • 35 mins
"Many leaders want to be great but often misunderstand the difference between management and leadership."
Treating people well isn't rocket science, but it requires intention and genuine care. As Lee put it, leadership is about guiding people to better outcomes through effective teaching and support. Read the blog for more on how to create a magical culture in your business.
Notable Moments
05:08 Misunderstanging Leadership and Management
07:31 Firing someone taught responsibility of leadership
12:18 Support others by prioritizing their needs, benefits.
15:26 Disney fosters belonging through thoughtful management.
18:47 Check-in with team daily; offer help.
22:34 Comfort builds trust; open communication improves performance.
25:09 True leadership isn't dependent on authority
29:30 Importance of identifying leaders with relational skills
33:53 Visit leecockrell.com for resources like book purchases and courses
Resources
Connect with Tim and his team:
Website: https://bestculturesolutions.ca/
LinkedIn: Best Culture Solutions, Inc
Instagram: @best.culture.solutions
Email: tim@bestculturesolutions.ca
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Welcome to the World at Work podcast where business leaders and
job seekers come together to create winning cultures and fulfilling
careers. I'm your host Jody Mayberry, and I'm here with Tim
Dick, the founder of Best Culture Solutions.
This episode is a celebration in two ways.
First, it is episode 100. Congratulations, Tim.
(00:29):
That is a big deal. Holy smokes. I but you
were just saying beforehand, just before we started this, we're at a 100. And if
when we started this, you had told me that. I would not understood how we
would have gotten there, but we did. There we go. Podcast never make it
past episode 10. So you are remarkable in more ways than
1. Here's the second celebration though. In
(00:50):
the 99 episodes leading up to this one, I think Tim
has talked about one person more than anyone else, and that
is Lee Cockrell, and he's here with us. Hi, Lee. Hi,
everybody. Yeah. Good to be here. Well, I'll tell you to hear. That's
good. I'll tell you in case you don't know, Lee Cockrell
is the retired executive vice president of Walt Disney
(01:13):
World. He before that, he was an executive at Marriott.
He also worked at Hilton, so three wonderful
brands, companies, and cultures. He's the author of 4
books including his first one which was Creating Magic.
And, Tim, I'm gonna let you take it from here because
this is somebody you've talked about so much, a book you've referenced
(01:35):
so much. So I will just step back for a moment and let you
go. Well, that's a dangerous amount of trust. But thank you. But no. I and
and let's talk about that because I could think back to I mean,
Lee, obviously, you have been we we've referenced you lots of times
when we talk about things in this show because he just had had a lot
of answers about the issues that we've addressed. But, you know, when I think
(01:56):
back to 9 years ago, almost 10 years ago, I was presented
with a really unique leadership challenge where I had inherited a
team that maybe I don't think had been led with strong
leadership or strong call. I wasn't in place and had to be done. I thought,
where am I gonna go for this? And and I picked up creating magic
because I was I was an alumni of the international program at Epcot
(02:17):
in 2002, and I knew I knew that there there
were answers and what was happening there and how we set up the culture. And
this podcast is all about building a winning culture. And I
would always tell people that the number one resource that they need to turn to
first is that book, is creating magic.
So I guess, let's open it up by just just saying,
(02:38):
like, you know, in terms of that book, how did you come up with the
idea to write that book? Yeah. You know, when I
came to Disney from France, I'd been over there 3 years with Disney
and came back to Orlando, and I increasingly got
frustrated that we weren't all on the same page. All our
leaders, we had 7,000 managers there. And how do you get them all
(03:00):
on the same page? And, you know, the only way you make improvements,
I think, is really knowledge and teaching. That's really
the main way. And I was complaining one day that everybody was
doing it a different way and we didn't have people behaving and they weren't treating
the employees right all the time and this and that. And this lady said, Well,
why don't we work together? She was a consultant with Disney. I said,
(03:22):
Fine. So she used to come to my house every Sunday
and we would talk. I would talk and she would take notes. And I would
talk about what I wish our managers would do, what mistakes I made in my
own career, what I wish I had, and just went through all those
kinds of things. And she kept the notes down and we published a
document at Disney called the Disney Great Leader Strategies. That was 10
(03:43):
strategies and actually, I think it was 12 at this time. And
so when I retired all those years later, literally
13 years later, I wanted to write a book, but I didn't think I always
thought, Oh, right, buy a book for me. And I'd screwed around a while
and I ran into a literary agent who was a friend of my wife's. They
went to college together, and she said, You should write a book. And I said,
(04:04):
Well, I don't know how to get that done. And she said, Don't worry, I'll
take care of that. And so we used a great little strategy, and she
teamed me up with a author out of New York, Phil Goldberg,
out of California. And I had the manuscript already written.
And I sent it to him, and he and I spent 3 days together, going
through it, for me to clarify for him. And then he took it and cleaned
(04:26):
it up and made sure it He told me an interesting thing. He
said, You have to write different than how you speak because you're not there to
clarify. And I think that's an interesting way to think about
things, or, you know, people can't be, I wonder what he meant. You gotta
know you gotta write what you mean, and they gotta be able to understand it
that way. And I think that book does it well. And so we worked on
(04:47):
it. It took about two and a half years back and forth because Disney lawyers
were involved in making sure I'm not putting anything in there that
they don't like, and I didn't, and I wouldn't have anyway.
But so that's how it came to pass, and we published it in
'eight. Sales continued to be great. It's in 22 languages.
I said I have it's in Russian and Chinese. I may not talk about that
(05:09):
too much right now because some people don't.
But Russia bought all 4 of my books, and so did China, and so
did Taiwan, by the way. And
in in in China, it's simplified Chinese, and it's complex
Chinese in Taiwan, but so I've learned a lot about that kind of stuff. And
I get you know, just kinda took a life on its own because with the
(05:32):
Internet, you know, your message gets out all over the world. And
when Jody and I started doing this podcast, we heard from people from every
country in the world as they listened to the podcast, and then they bought the
book, and it just kinda multiplied. And, yeah,
I mean, I think the issue is a lot of leaders would
like to be great, but they don't know how. And they don't know what it
(05:54):
looks like. You know, the difference between management and leadership is
really big, and most times, people haven't explained that or the
they don't even understand it. But, you know, I I always talk about management's what
you do every day. Keep things under control. You can make a list of
things you gotta do and check them off, and leadership's about how to be, how
to be there for your people, and how to be a person who can make
(06:15):
hard decisions, and how to be a person who has integrity, and how to
be a person who tells the truth. And that's a big difference from
doing. We got a lot of people in the world doing a lot and not
being a lot. And that's everywhere we find people who are great
leaders, that company does well. Turnover is low.
People like their jobs. There are less anxiety. There's
(06:36):
better profits, better results. Tell me, you know, I almost go
say, duh. I mean, if you treat people right if you don't
treat people right, they're not gonna really give you the credit card and spend money
with you. So it's it's kinda one of those simple things that's to
talk about, but it's find people find it hard to do
because it is hard to be a good leader. It is hard to have hard
(06:58):
conversations. It is hard to make hard decisions. It is,
deal with the stress of your decisions and recessions and
crisis. And and but once you learn that
that's your responsibility, then and you start
doing it, you know, like anything, anything you do gets easier.
Once you do it enough, it just becomes, okay. I get it. Now I
(07:20):
know. I was like, because I remember the first time I had to speak to
somebody about their performance. I was the old manager back. I didn't oh,
man. I couldn't sleep for 2 nights thinking about having to have that conversation. And
then when I had to fire them, that's when I was I let it go
for months until my boss said, Lee, if you don't deal with him, I'm gonna
deal with you. And, so I got some training that day from my
(07:42):
boss. And it's true. We if you have kids or in charge of people's
lives, you it's a big responsibility. You're kinda guiding their future.
They'll either turn out better or worse depending on how good of a teacher leader
you are. So that's I like the subject a lot, and there are people
who find a lot better in their life after kinda
absorbing it. And, really, that's how
(08:05):
it came about. And I have an interest in it because I
started my career as I was kind of a jerk and a manager, and I
didn't about the difference. And I came to learn the
difference. I found that it's much more productive,
and you get the right outcomes when you treat people
properly because everything is about people. There's nothing else. Every problem
(08:27):
you have in your life will be a person. I mean Absolutely. Yeah. And
one thing I always say too, and you're right about that, is that even with,
you know, more computers and artificial intelligence and all these things that are
trying to do stuff for us, at the end of the day, it's still gonna
be a person that decides how those work. It's gonna be a person who makes
sure that they're working. And it doesn't matter what solutions we come up with. There's
always people. And every problem and every solution starts with people. And
(08:50):
if if you don't set the right tone, culture, you don't lead properly, then you're
gonna have people problems. And, I mean, I heard the saying from you. You're gonna
have flies in your restaurant. You go, if you wanna have flies, you're gonna have
flies. Right. Telling your wife you love her just on Internet, but
not in person. Have you ever tried that? No.
Okay. Well and that and you've been married for a long time, so you seem
(09:12):
to know. Yeah. It's you know, it's the human factor, and it's very
emotional in our insecurities. And people are going through a lot
of problems right now around the world, and they need to know if they
matter. Yeah. Seems like a lot of bosses don't know the how to make
sure they know the matter. They ask, how do you do that, Leah? I said,
you tell them. He said, you pay attention to them. You're available for
(09:32):
them. You listen to them. You help them. You train them. You develop. That's how
you do it. If Then, some people
haven't seen some of their people for ages because they don't get out and about
and find out what they're up to and what they're doing and what they need.
So it's but companies Boy, I tell you, I worked for some companies that
turned them around just absorbing that because it's so
(09:53):
basic. It's not very complicated. I said, I don't use PowerPoint.
We just talk about that there's basic people. And I you
know? And I think most people are good people, but then they get
into business, and they misunderstand what corporations or
business is. They think they gotta be mean, they gotta be tough, and they gotta
push people. The first answer is to fire them or to write
(10:14):
them up or no. That's probably yeah. That's probably not what you
yeah. You don't fire your children, so, you know, you you have
to keep them and deal with it. So you gotta develop them. And that's just
a basic you know, people are afraid, and they don't know what to
do because nobody's talking. So it's a good thing. And, I
I mean, it's funny. You answered my next question. So why do these 10, you
(10:36):
know, the 10 strategies in creating magic work? But I think you've hit the nail
on the head. It's because people are people. And they're what you have what you
have written about in creating magic, in my opinion, is timeless. Right?
Because I hope so. Right? Yeah. I think so. Because there was a time
when leadership was about, you know, whipping people with a set of
numbers and, you know, with performance. And we've come to realize that the
(10:58):
way to achieve those things, those operational results, those
bottom line results is about how you build the relationships with people. And do you
have the courage to do the hard things? And because that's how you build trust.
You need to build trusting relationships with people.
Absolutely. If you get so wrapped up on whether or not everybody likes
you that you don't tell them what they need to hear or you don't provide
(11:20):
them the clarity that they need to get provided, you lose that respect. And people
actually it's funny that thing that we fear not being respected or liked
comes to fruition because we were so afraid of it that we didn't do what
we had to do to create that relationship with people. And I
think, you know, what you have written in creating magic is timeless
because of that because that's how people are, and they always will be. Yeah.
(11:41):
It's, think back about it when you think about the responsibility
you have for people's future lives, training,
development, your kids. Yeah. If your kids fail, it's
probably your fault. And if, people at work are failing and you're
not doing anything about it, that's your fault too because you you hold the power
and you hold the ability and you hold the, resources and
(12:03):
you, I mean, you hold everything, and you need to use it.
And somebody told me once, they said, use your talent for good, not
for bad. So that's a good way to think about it, Art. And
my granddaughter said, you know, the most important thing is just be nice to people.
They already got enough problems. You know? We don't know why people
are having problems, but everybody's partially mentally ill.
(12:25):
So from the way they were raised to how their parents treated them or the
recession or whatever, who knows?
But we gotta kinda let that go and ask, you know,
make sure we get in there and help people get what they need, not what
I need. And what he you know, I said, when you're interviewing people today and
you're in that business now of hiring and helping people having companies
(12:46):
hire people and get the right people, and I've told companies
lately, I you know, you've gotta tell the person what's in it for them too,
not just what, that if you come to work for us, that you're
gonna have a better career. We're gonna teach you. We're gonna train you. We care
about you too. We'll be available for you. Because kids, if they don't hear
something, it turns them on. It's in there for them. They just go somewhere else.
(13:08):
There's plenty of jobs. There's no lack of jobs. There's a lack of leadership,
and that's why people are jumping around and moving around. And and they've
learned they have the power to do that. They don't have to stay.
Yeah. And one thing I find interesting about that is that sometimes when I chat
with business leaders about that, they think that it's it's that people are all
about this is just about money to them and saying, no. No. No. What's in
(13:29):
it for them actually has very little to do with that because there's so many
jobs now. People can find money. There's money to be found. It's
not about the money when they wanna know what's in it for them. They wanna
know, am I gonna grow? Can I be a better professional? Can I
learn, right, more? And how they're gonna get that opportunity to learn more and
contribute more, and what's the purpose of being here? They want that. They wanna be
(13:49):
part of something bigger. And you have to communicate that to people, what the
value proposition is that way. And that's what people really want, I
find, is not necessarily money. And I think what you're gonna find out is
that's what they want, and sometimes they don't even know they want that. But if
you'll bring it up and start talking about it, they'll go, woah. I've been to
3 other interviews. Nobody talked to me like this. Nobody insured told me they're
(14:10):
gonna look after me and be available and train me and develop me and get
me better. They go, after the 4 interviews, I'm gonna pick
this one. This is where somebody said they talked about me, not just
about their company. And I I think that's sometimes we don't know what we want
until we run into it. That's right. And And I want
it. Yeah. Exactly. And it's but you know what it is?
(14:32):
It's that it's that feeling of belonging. Right? People want to belong
to things, and that's something that they wanna that gives them that sense of belonging.
And we don't talk about that all the time, you know, people want to
matter. That's the basic deepest thing people want
is, I wanna matter. I wanna be somebody I don't want. Yeah.
You you know, it's funny too about too is that if you do it right
(14:53):
and you do it well, even in the in the large organization,
people can matter and not lose their individuality. I often tell
people, I worked at Disney. When we started traditions on day
1, we're told a lot of expectations. Like, and this is before you
could have facial hair. Your hair had to be cut off the ears. I think
you and I and Jody Lee, we'd all be sent for a haircut today, wouldn't
(15:16):
we, back in 2002? But You and Jody were not me.
Yeah. Wait. Let's see. Oh, yeah. You're good. You're okay. Yeah.
Especially Jodie during the pandemic when Yeah. With Eslin and Joe.
Work from home. But I always tell people, though, is
that because it was managed so deliberately
and well and respect for people was there in the workplace
(15:37):
and let's get real. In 2002, Disney was doing things
on the diversity front that some people still haven't caught up to
23 years later. Despite the fact that there
were a lot of, you know, Disney looking standards and service
standards and what we did there to provide that experience to the guest.
I have never been in any large organization of work that I've
(16:00):
never been more able to be an individual, right, to be myself
than in that environment. And it was good because the rules and
the standards and the relationships were managed with respect and clarity
that they were put in place as tools to help you thrive as opposed
to a book to beat you over the head with. And if you do it
right and you do it well, you can provide people that sense of belonging But
(16:22):
why do they feel like they belong? Because they're they were welcomed as the individual
that they are. It's possible if you do it right and you do it well
and you're thoughtful and deliberate about it. Oh, I think no, Corey, you said it
right there. We've gotta lead and manage people as individuals.
You gotta work work you know, it's like your 3 daughters. They're all different.
I guarantee you. And, we gotta deal with them
(16:44):
differently emotionally, and and, you
can't just put a blanket way to do it. And,
that's what people do that are tough and push hard. They only have one
answer because it's harder to deal with people. Because when you treat people as
individuals, you gotta try to figure out what's going on, why, what they
need, what does she need, what does he need, and it's different.
(17:05):
And, yeah, absolutely. I think that is one of the
biggest problems is we want to just have a policy, a
big policy we throw over everybody, and that doesn't work
because everybody's a little different. Oh, boy. You know? You know,
if you had a professor said he he said, we used to send you introverts,
and you send us back extroverts. And that's what it does, working in the
(17:27):
right place where you learn and interact and become more
comfortable and a manager treats you right, and you're not intimidated.
You wake up the morning, you don't want to go to work, not have to
go because sometimes your life is better at work, and
environment matters, and it matters a lot. Oh, totally. Yeah. And I
and one thing I find is that one thing that I think that creating
(17:49):
magic, your book does, and other things that you've done and you've worked on and
that I learned through you or at Disney or what have you, those principles
work at home too. I mean, and it's not because you're trying to run
your house like a business. It's because you've evolved to understand that it's all about
relationships and how you're nurturing them, and and and that works
in both places. Right? And how you're creating clarity in those relationships. When you
(18:11):
get home, tell your wife you love her before you turn the TV on. That's
right. Yeah. Do things in the right order, you'll be okay.
Well and and and if you're a really good operations guy, maybe you'll have the
checklist so you can, make sure you're Oh, maybe. And, you know, I
said, when you get to work, go around and see your team before you go
plug in your computer. You know, we used to say,
(18:32):
touch the people before you touch the work. HR said to
quit saying touch with people, so I had to change
that. You know, interact with your people before you go turn your computer on, put
your head down for the day, find out what's going on. Yeah. You know, it's
funny. That works really well. When that leadership challenge I was telling you
about, it was a team of about 25 to 40 people responsible for
(18:55):
making sure that anywhere between 6 to a
1000 people were well orchestrated in doing their jobs. There were schedulers and planners and
dispatchers and all that stuff. When I started going in every morning and
just before I went to my desk, and I purposely come in
about half an hour early to make time for this, I would go to each
person at their desk and say, how's your day going? Like, at this point, their
(19:16):
shift would have started earlier in the morning, so there's a good probably sample
size of what's happened that day. And how is your morning? How is it going?
And I learned this from you, actually. I then followed up
with, is there anything I can help you with today?
And when people were asked that for the first time, they were
like, what? What do you mean? And that and I said, look. I know you
(19:38):
know how to do your job, but sometimes you get a tricky question or tricky
situation or you don't know what do we do in these situations. This is
new or or I've got a tough one. You know? And that's
your opportunity if you need to get it out there to to ask, because
you might be nervous to come into my office even though the door is open.
I mean yeah. And as we talk about this, this is so
(19:59):
basic. Exactly. Anybody's not doing it. It
doesn't it's not just Disney or you or anybody can if
you care about people and by the way, that is your
resource. That is your business. You ought to take care of that
business as much as you do your computers. You know what I mean? It's,
it's what can drive you under very quickly and very quickly.
(20:22):
One employee could drive away customers. One person that answers
your phone and doesn't do it well. And, I mean, it's people, and
it's always people. And I today, I tried to call somebody back
that I was supposed to have a conference call with them at 1 o'clock.
And, they said they sent and 2 days ago, they said, we're
sending you the link to get in, and I
(20:44):
wrote her back for 2 days. I didn't get the link. You
know? Right before the call, I called her phone,
and it went through a whole tree, you know, a phone tree.
And, it was chaos. And I never did get
back to her, and she wrote me later and said, you okay, Lee? You weren't
on the call. I said, I know. And it turns out she has 2 emails.
(21:06):
One was not forwarding email to the other email. And I mean,
it's like, what? I mean,
mass confusion. And that's why people's you do that in business,
people just don't come back. They just say, I'm not making that call. Let get
that reservations for a restaurant, or for booking my
wedding, or what anything. I mean, the
(21:28):
hassle factor has got to go away, and it's the people that cause
hassles because we don't have a standard. We don't train them. We don't show them.
We don't care about them. I had met with a Disney leader this morning. He
said I said, why are you so successful? And he is. He said, I
think because I care. I care about them. Give the crap.
Yeah. That may be as simple. You don't have to get a cause to create
(21:49):
this care, or you might have a better life. Yeah.
And you can't fake that. You either care or you don't, and you can pretend
people see through it. But it's funny too because that asking people how I could
help them coupled with, you know, if they would say, hey. X,
y, and zed is happening. What should I do? The first thing I'd say, well,
what do you think? Right? And people are like, what do you mean? What do
I think? You're the boss. You're the authority. It's like, no, not really. I was
(22:13):
like, I, you know, I've been through this for years and I have ideas, but
what do you think? And I would tell people, and I learned, I
literally ripped this line off right from you. I pay you for your opinion. What
do you think? You're smart. A lot of them said I don't think. I don't
get enough to think. That's that's good. I'd like
you to start. But you know what? Like that. Where would you begin? After a
(22:34):
few months of doing that, the results were actually quite interesting because
people felt comfortable to talk about things, right, that were
going on. And what do you think? And what happened? And what can improve? And
and it got to the point where they were so comfortable and trust had been
built where every morning when I'd walk in, my office looked like a Catholic
confessional booth because everybody would come in and confess to me all
(22:56):
the things that they didn't think were perfect that day, but what they think they
could do differently. And I knew all the issues that I might get asked about
before I got asked about them because people knew that that environment was created
where people were motivated to always think about ways to do things better, and that
was great. They were trained properly on the tools to use and and the
culture and how we how we want our customers and our guests to feel. But
(23:18):
then they were respected and asked for their opinion and and asked if they needed
help. And so they felt comfortable with me to to be upfront and honest
about what blind spots there were on the team, what they were experiencing.
And, yeah, they people are if you treat people like adults, they'll
act like adults. Right? If you treat them like they have, they're smart, and they
can think, then they will be smart, and they can think. And you let them
(23:39):
do their work, and they will provide you with everything you need to
know both informationally and all of the above. And
you know this. I mean You tell people your customers and your
employees know everything you need to know if you can get it out of them.
They know what needs to be done, and what you know doesn't
get you in trouble in life. It's what you don't know. Scott.
(24:01):
And that's really I think about, oh, were you thinking over then?
Well, the truth is when you get the whole truth, you have a whole different
perspective about how you ought to operate your business. Things change. Yeah. So
here's a good question for you, Lee. I mean, you mentioned that when you first
started in leadership roles, you you know, you I think you used the word jerk,
but I was just gonna say struggle. But by the end of it, you're writing
(24:21):
books on how to lead. So you obviously have implemented,
you know, in your own leadership these principles that are in
the book. What was the change for you? What was what did it change
for you as a leader? Well, I think it's progressive, I think. You know, I
started out as a young kid, 20 years old. I didn't know anyone, and I
didn't really got out of the environment of a little farm
(24:43):
town in Oklahoma. I went to the big city, and I was,
probably I was a good manager because I was very organized and very
disciplined. So when somebody told me this something, I gotta do. And they
could rely on that. But nobody had ever talked about leadership or
how you treat people, and I was just get the work done, get the work
done. And, I eventually had a
(25:05):
bad reputation for being they said my nickname was Doberman.
And I started to think about that and went through a situation where a guy
told me he was really afraid of me coming visit his
property, of what might head up. And so I really took that
to heart. I mean, I was in my 30s when I really started thinking about
learning more about leadership. What does it really mean? How do you do
(25:28):
it? And start thinking about leaders in the world who had followers
and were able to have followers without
any authority. So I just progressively
and, by the way, the main reason I was like that, I had,
I was, I guess, my self confidence. I grew up
kind of a dysfunctional way, so I was I didn't think I knew anything. So
(25:51):
but I did know I was a good manager, and I knew that that got
things done because I had the power. But it's mainly
when people mistreat you, or raise their voice to you, or treat you badly,
that's somebody that's got a problem with their self confidence. You know?
Absolutely. There's no other reason. I mean, self confidence, I'm in charge. I
don't want people to know what I don't know. I don't want you to know
(26:13):
how dumb I am, so I'll be so mean to you, you'll stay away from
me, and you'll never ask questions. You'll just do what I say, because I
would say most leaders are have a big vacuum of what
they don't know. And I said, as soon as you understand
nobody knows what they're doing, you'll be feeling better. And, so I've
changed slowly but surely, and I started getting results. And,
(26:34):
yeah, and walking the business, going out and seeing I just started
changing my routine. I started writing better emails, like,
making sure at the end, I told them how much I appreciate them instead of
just cutting it off. Or and when I had a call, I told them I
would tell started telling people, you're doing a great job, thanks. I hope you're good.
Anything I can do for you? And it's you know, you kinda pick up you
(26:55):
kinda change. You're you become more mature,
older, and you learn. And, I think any change is
progressive. You know, you you get better. It's like exercise. Do more,
you get better at it. Anything you do, you get better at it. And I
was very focused on making sure that I was getting better at getting
people to to want to do their job, not have to do it because Lee
(27:15):
was watching. And, it's pretty basic. I
think that's the struggle many people go through is
insecurity and and the stress of business life
today, faster results, and wanting
to take a shortcut, lay everybody off, fire everybody,
get more people, make them come in 7 days a week. Now you got
(27:37):
I mean, sometimes the long way is the short way. You gotta
really hang in there, take care of the people, figure out how to
do it together, get their support when there are bad times. Maybe
they get more productive and help you. So it's it's a
road you gotta go down in, but you gotta know you got a problem. And
I figured out I had a problem, and I needed to get better at it.
(27:58):
So I can't do anything. I think most of us don't even admit what our
biggest problems are and, get help with them. You know, somebody
said, if you're having mental health problems, go see a psychiatrist.
And get some medication. Get better. Or if you got an infection, go
get help. And if you need help on something that you're not an expert in,
find an expert to help you with your business. Or by the way, I'm
(28:21):
curious about what kind of training are you doing for companies out
there today? They asked me today about the hiring, how to get
better at deciding who becomes a candidate for leadership
versus Yes. Good question. We do that. We
do offer training on how do I interview and identify. And
so I actually work together with Carol Quinn on on a lot of that stuff
(28:42):
too on MBI stuff, but we also do things like how do you
do take that to the next level and make kinda make you a more deliberate
succession plan? Who's ready for leadership or who although is
anybody ever a 100% ready? But who's the most ready? Who's doing the
work? Stuff like that. But we also do leadership trainings and time management
training and customer service training and all that type of stuff. So,
(29:04):
yeah, it's it's good. And, yeah, I mean, I enjoy doing that because it's
a chance to give back. Right? Some of the knowledge
that I have gained over the years and have seen it work. Yeah.
That's good. I had a client ask me the other day how they could get
better at out of all of frontline
employees they have, how can we identify the ones that
(29:26):
are most suited to become managers and leaders?
Yeah. We do help people with that because because and here's the thing that
happens a lot of times with that is that a lot of places, they
pick the person who's on the front line that shows up on time every day.
And don't get me wrong. That's important. But the skill set is
different. It's how are you all all the things we've just spent the last half
(29:47):
hour talking about. How are you leading people? Are you building those relationships? That's
the skill. Good example, you know, we recently a
couple years ago now, we recruited for a pharmacy here, where
I live, and they were having a hard time finding the right person to lead
the pharmacy because legally speaking, you need somebody who is a
licensed pharmacist to do that, to hold the license.
(30:09):
And a lot of those businesses, they find somebody who's dedicated to
pharmacy, and that's good. But the role has changed, and they were
identifying the wrong people. They they're identifying people that were
they enjoyed the chemical side or the, you know, the actual technical side
of the pharmacy, not so much the running the business and leading the people side.
So we actually did a search for them that focused on
(30:31):
leadership, building relationships in the community, you know, the
stuff that we've just spent time talking about. And it's crazy how much it
makes a difference, you know, find the right person who's motivated and passionate about those
two things. They weren't looking for a pharmacist. They're looking for
somebody who's a business person that happened to be a pharmacist too. We got them
in place, and within one monthly, they did as much revenue as they did the
(30:53):
whole 6 months prior. Probably saved the business. So
Very powerful. Right. You pick the right people. And one thing
because we could be here all day, but I have a feeling that I think
we've probably gone over our usual time, which is great. But one thing I
always like to point out to people, here's how I know personally
that what you talk about in creating magic works.
(31:16):
So I bought your book in 2015, right, when I was
up against it. I was like, I gotta do something here. And now in 2018,
the company that I worked for is a 5,000 person organization
across Canada. And once a year, I don't think they do it anymore, but they
did it for about 10 or 15 years. They would pick 1 leader
(31:36):
across the whole organization, and they would
recognize them as the one leader that did the most to build the
leadership capacity of the organization. In 2018,
I received that. It's sitting behind any behind pictures of my daughter because
they're more important, but than any business recognition. But
I received that for doing what I did, but I didn't really do it.
(31:59):
I just copied and pasted what you told me to do. So I That's what
we all do. There's nothing new in life. It's just gotta learn what and knowledge
is, yeah, it's out there as most of it's free.
So that's good good story. I don't know if you
recall, but I stay I I was like, oh, I can't, in a good faith,
accept this without recognizing Lee. So I sent you thoughts at the time
(32:20):
because of the times. Uh-huh. But yeah. I mean and all that
to say is that I know that what is in that book works. And if
people dig into it, like, it is a timeless manual
on how to weed genuinely and how to lead people effectively.
And so I can't recommend it enough. Well, when you put new good stuff in
your brand, then you got something to call on to help you solve problems. So
(32:43):
Yeah. Some people have a problem. Wyoming ain't up there.
So it is. So, yeah, good for you. 100
100%. So, anyway, I'm grateful for everything that I've learned from you over
the years. I mean, it started if I think about it in 2002 when I
was a cast member before you and I ever met. But the learning started then,
and I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And I will tell you that's how
(33:05):
I get my most satisfaction today is hearing people say, hey. That
I've gotten better. I learned something. Because I think teachers, when you're a teacher
instead of a boss, you make a difference, a bigger difference,
and you get more satisfaction than when people call you back and say, you helped
their life. And that's what I like, and I really encourage people today.
Make sure you're teaching, not not intimidating and not pushing people
(33:28):
around. It'll change your whole life. So yep.
100%. Well, I'm pretty sure that this is the point where Jody comes back in
and asks Lee, hey, Lee. How do we get a copy of Creating Magic, or
how do we get more information? So I'll let Jody do his part so I
don't take his job from him. Well, Tim, I think you I think you just
did that part. Lee, where where can we find out more about
you, what you're up to, how to get your books and your courses and
(33:51):
everything that you're working on? Well, everything's on my website,
leecockrell.com, but Canada certainly has Amazon
Canada, and it's there, And I know you can get
it there. And, anybody that can't get it, just send
me an email, lee@leecockrell.com, and we'll make sure
you find a place to get it. But, leeecockrell.com, everything
(34:13):
we do is on there, from our podcast, from
some free resources to the Cockrell Academy, a
subscription service on leadership. We put everything in one place, so
you'll find it. Alright, Lee. Thank you for
joining us for this episode to celebrate
100 episodes of World at Work. Tim, that is a big accomplishment.
(34:35):
Congratulations. And of course, Tim and I are happy that you're here
listening and helping us celebrate 100 episodes.
Thank you so much for listening to World at Work.
Welcome to the World at Work podcast where business leaders and
job seekers come together to create winning cultures and fulfilling
careers. I'm your host Jody Mayberry, and I'm here with Tim
Dick, the founder of Best Culture Solutions.
This episode is a celebration in two ways.
First, it is episode 100. Congratulations, Tim.
(00:29):
That is a big deal. Holy smokes. I but you
were just saying beforehand, just before we started this, we're at a 100. And if
when we started this, you had told me that. I would not understood how we
would have gotten there, but we did. There we go. Podcast never make it
past episode 10. So you are remarkable in more ways than
1. Here's the second celebration though. In
(00:50):
the 99 episodes leading up to this one, I think Tim
has talked about one person more than anyone else, and that
is Lee Cockrell, and he's here with us. Hi, Lee. Hi,
everybody. Yeah. Good to be here. Well, I'll tell you to hear. That's
good. I'll tell you in case you don't know, Lee Cockrell
is the retired executive vice president of Walt Disney
(01:13):
World. He before that, he was an executive at Marriott.
He also worked at Hilton, so three wonderful
brands, companies, and cultures. He's the author of 4
books including his first one which was Creating Magic.
And, Tim, I'm gonna let you take it from here because
this is somebody you've talked about so much, a book you've referenced
(01:35):
so much. So I will just step back for a moment and let you
go. Well, that's a dangerous amount of trust. But thank you. But no. I and
and let's talk about that because I could think back to I mean,
Lee, obviously, you have been we we've referenced you lots of times
when we talk about things in this show because he just had had a lot
of answers about the issues that we've addressed. But, you know, when I think
(01:56):
back to 9 years ago, almost 10 years ago, I was presented
with a really unique leadership challenge where I had inherited a
team that maybe I don't think had been led with strong
leadership or strong call. I wasn't in place and had to be done. I thought,
where am I gonna go for this? And and I picked up creating magic
because I was I was an alumni of the international program at Epcot
(02:17):
in 2002, and I knew I knew that there there
were answers and what was happening there and how we set up the culture. And
this podcast is all about building a winning culture. And I
would always tell people that the number one resource that they need to turn to
first is that book, is creating magic.
So I guess, let's open it up by just just saying,
(02:38):
like, you know, in terms of that book, how did you come up with the
idea to write that book? Yeah. You know, when I
came to Disney from France, I'd been over there 3 years with Disney
and came back to Orlando, and I increasingly got
frustrated that we weren't all on the same page. All our
leaders, we had 7,000 managers there. And how do you get them all
(03:00):
on the same page? And, you know, the only way you make improvements,
I think, is really knowledge and teaching. That's really
the main way. And I was complaining one day that everybody was
doing it a different way and we didn't have people behaving and they weren't treating
the employees right all the time and this and that. And this lady said, Well,
why don't we work together? She was a consultant with Disney. I said,
(03:22):
Fine. So she used to come to my house every Sunday
and we would talk. I would talk and she would take notes. And I would
talk about what I wish our managers would do, what mistakes I made in my
own career, what I wish I had, and just went through all those
kinds of things. And she kept the notes down and we published a
document at Disney called the Disney Great Leader Strategies. That was 10
(03:43):
strategies and actually, I think it was 12 at this time. And
so when I retired all those years later, literally
13 years later, I wanted to write a book, but I didn't think I always
thought, Oh, right, buy a book for me. And I'd screwed around a while
and I ran into a literary agent who was a friend of my wife's. They
went to college together, and she said, You should write a book. And I said,
(04:04):
Well, I don't know how to get that done. And she said, Don't worry, I'll
take care of that. And so we used a great little strategy, and she
teamed me up with a author out of New York, Phil Goldberg,
out of California. And I had the manuscript already written.
And I sent it to him, and he and I spent 3 days together, going
through it, for me to clarify for him. And then he took it and cleaned
(04:26):
it up and made sure it He told me an interesting thing. He
said, You have to write different than how you speak because you're not there to
clarify. And I think that's an interesting way to think about
things, or, you know, people can't be, I wonder what he meant. You gotta
know you gotta write what you mean, and they gotta be able to understand it
that way. And I think that book does it well. And so we worked on
(04:47):
it. It took about two and a half years back and forth because Disney lawyers
were involved in making sure I'm not putting anything in there that
they don't like, and I didn't, and I wouldn't have anyway.
But so that's how it came to pass, and we published it in
'eight. Sales continued to be great. It's in 22 languages.
I said I have it's in Russian and Chinese. I may not talk about that
(05:09):
too much right now because some people don't.
But Russia bought all 4 of my books, and so did China, and so
did Taiwan, by the way. And
in in in China, it's simplified Chinese, and it's complex
Chinese in Taiwan, but so I've learned a lot about that kind of stuff. And
I get you know, just kinda took a life on its own because with the
(05:32):
Internet, you know, your message gets out all over the world. And
when Jody and I started doing this podcast, we heard from people from every
country in the world as they listened to the podcast, and then they bought the
book, and it just kinda multiplied. And, yeah,
I mean, I think the issue is a lot of leaders would
like to be great, but they don't know how. And they don't know what it
(05:54):
looks like. You know, the difference between management and leadership is
really big, and most times, people haven't explained that or the
they don't even understand it. But, you know, I I always talk about management's what
you do every day. Keep things under control. You can make a list of
things you gotta do and check them off, and leadership's about how to be, how
to be there for your people, and how to be a person who can make
(06:15):
hard decisions, and how to be a person who has integrity, and how to
be a person who tells the truth. And that's a big difference from
doing. We got a lot of people in the world doing a lot and not
being a lot. And that's everywhere we find people who are great
leaders, that company does well. Turnover is low.
People like their jobs. There are less anxiety. There's
(06:36):
better profits, better results. Tell me, you know, I almost go
say, duh. I mean, if you treat people right if you don't
treat people right, they're not gonna really give you the credit card and spend money
with you. So it's it's kinda one of those simple things that's to
talk about, but it's find people find it hard to do
because it is hard to be a good leader. It is hard to have hard
(06:58):
conversations. It is hard to make hard decisions. It is,
deal with the stress of your decisions and recessions and
crisis. And and but once you learn that
that's your responsibility, then and you start
doing it, you know, like anything, anything you do gets easier.
Once you do it enough, it just becomes, okay. I get it. Now I
(07:20):
know. I was like, because I remember the first time I had to speak to
somebody about their performance. I was the old manager back. I didn't oh,
man. I couldn't sleep for 2 nights thinking about having to have that conversation. And
then when I had to fire them, that's when I was I let it go
for months until my boss said, Lee, if you don't deal with him, I'm gonna
deal with you. And, so I got some training that day from my
(07:42):
boss. And it's true. We if you have kids or in charge of people's
lives, you it's a big responsibility. You're kinda guiding their future.
They'll either turn out better or worse depending on how good of a teacher leader
you are. So that's I like the subject a lot, and there are people
who find a lot better in their life after kinda
absorbing it. And, really, that's how
(08:05):
it came about. And I have an interest in it because I
started my career as I was kind of a jerk and a manager, and I
didn't about the difference. And I came to learn the
difference. I found that it's much more productive,
and you get the right outcomes when you treat people
properly because everything is about people. There's nothing else. Every problem
(08:27):
you have in your life will be a person. I mean Absolutely. Yeah. And
one thing I always say too, and you're right about that, is that even with,
you know, more computers and artificial intelligence and all these things that are
trying to do stuff for us, at the end of the day, it's still gonna
be a person that decides how those work. It's gonna be a person who makes
sure that they're working. And it doesn't matter what solutions we come up with. There's
always people. And every problem and every solution starts with people. And
(08:50):
if if you don't set the right tone, culture, you don't lead properly, then you're
gonna have people problems. And, I mean, I heard the saying from you. You're gonna
have flies in your restaurant. You go, if you wanna have flies, you're gonna have
flies. Right. Telling your wife you love her just on Internet, but
not in person. Have you ever tried that? No.
Okay. Well and that and you've been married for a long time, so you seem
(09:12):
to know. Yeah. It's you know, it's the human factor, and it's very
emotional in our insecurities. And people are going through a lot
of problems right now around the world, and they need to know if they
matter. Yeah. Seems like a lot of bosses don't know the how to make
sure they know the matter. They ask, how do you do that, Leah? I said,
you tell them. He said, you pay attention to them. You're available for
(09:32):
them. You listen to them. You help them. You train them. You develop. That's how
you do it. If Then, some people
haven't seen some of their people for ages because they don't get out and about
and find out what they're up to and what they're doing and what they need.
So it's but companies Boy, I tell you, I worked for some companies that
turned them around just absorbing that because it's so
(09:53):
basic. It's not very complicated. I said, I don't use PowerPoint.
We just talk about that there's basic people. And I you
know? And I think most people are good people, but then they get
into business, and they misunderstand what corporations or
business is. They think they gotta be mean, they gotta be tough, and they gotta
push people. The first answer is to fire them or to write
(10:14):
them up or no. That's probably yeah. That's probably not what you
yeah. You don't fire your children, so, you know, you you have
to keep them and deal with it. So you gotta develop them. And that's just
a basic you know, people are afraid, and they don't know what to
do because nobody's talking. So it's a good thing. And, I
I mean, it's funny. You answered my next question. So why do these 10, you
(10:36):
know, the 10 strategies in creating magic work? But I think you've hit the nail
on the head. It's because people are people. And they're what you have what you
have written about in creating magic, in my opinion, is timeless. Right?
Because I hope so. Right? Yeah. I think so. Because there was a time
when leadership was about, you know, whipping people with a set of
numbers and, you know, with performance. And we've come to realize that the
(10:58):
way to achieve those things, those operational results, those
bottom line results is about how you build the relationships with people. And do you
have the courage to do the hard things? And because that's how you build trust.
You need to build trusting relationships with people.
Absolutely. If you get so wrapped up on whether or not everybody likes
you that you don't tell them what they need to hear or you don't provide
(11:20):
them the clarity that they need to get provided, you lose that respect. And people
actually it's funny that thing that we fear not being respected or liked
comes to fruition because we were so afraid of it that we didn't do what
we had to do to create that relationship with people. And I
think, you know, what you have written in creating magic is timeless
because of that because that's how people are, and they always will be. Yeah.
(11:41):
It's, think back about it when you think about the responsibility
you have for people's future lives, training,
development, your kids. Yeah. If your kids fail, it's
probably your fault. And if, people at work are failing and you're
not doing anything about it, that's your fault too because you you hold the power
and you hold the ability and you hold the, resources and
(12:03):
you, I mean, you hold everything, and you need to use it.
And somebody told me once, they said, use your talent for good, not
for bad. So that's a good way to think about it, Art. And
my granddaughter said, you know, the most important thing is just be nice to people.
They already got enough problems. You know? We don't know why people
are having problems, but everybody's partially mentally ill.
(12:25):
So from the way they were raised to how their parents treated them or the
recession or whatever, who knows?
But we gotta kinda let that go and ask, you know,
make sure we get in there and help people get what they need, not what
I need. And what he you know, I said, when you're interviewing people today and
you're in that business now of hiring and helping people having companies
(12:46):
hire people and get the right people, and I've told companies
lately, I you know, you've gotta tell the person what's in it for them too,
not just what, that if you come to work for us, that you're
gonna have a better career. We're gonna teach you. We're gonna train you. We care
about you too. We'll be available for you. Because kids, if they don't hear
something, it turns them on. It's in there for them. They just go somewhere else.
(13:08):
There's plenty of jobs. There's no lack of jobs. There's a lack of leadership,
and that's why people are jumping around and moving around. And and they've
learned they have the power to do that. They don't have to stay.
Yeah. And one thing I find interesting about that is that sometimes when I chat
with business leaders about that, they think that it's it's that people are all
about this is just about money to them and saying, no. No. No. What's in
(13:29):
it for them actually has very little to do with that because there's so many
jobs now. People can find money. There's money to be found. It's
not about the money when they wanna know what's in it for them. They wanna
know, am I gonna grow? Can I be a better professional? Can I
learn, right, more? And how they're gonna get that opportunity to learn more and
contribute more, and what's the purpose of being here? They want that. They wanna be
(13:49):
part of something bigger. And you have to communicate that to people, what the
value proposition is that way. And that's what people really want, I
find, is not necessarily money. And I think what you're gonna find out is
that's what they want, and sometimes they don't even know they want that. But if
you'll bring it up and start talking about it, they'll go, woah. I've been to
3 other interviews. Nobody talked to me like this. Nobody insured told me they're
(14:10):
gonna look after me and be available and train me and develop me and get
me better. They go, after the 4 interviews, I'm gonna pick
this one. This is where somebody said they talked about me, not just
about their company. And I I think that's sometimes we don't know what we want
until we run into it. That's right. And And I want
it. Yeah. Exactly. And it's but you know what it is?
(14:32):
It's that it's that feeling of belonging. Right? People want to belong
to things, and that's something that they wanna that gives them that sense of belonging.
And we don't talk about that all the time, you know, people want to
matter. That's the basic deepest thing people want
is, I wanna matter. I wanna be somebody I don't want. Yeah.
You you know, it's funny too about too is that if you do it right
(14:53):
and you do it well, even in the in the large organization,
people can matter and not lose their individuality. I often tell
people, I worked at Disney. When we started traditions on day
1, we're told a lot of expectations. Like, and this is before you
could have facial hair. Your hair had to be cut off the ears. I think
you and I and Jody Lee, we'd all be sent for a haircut today, wouldn't
(15:16):
we, back in 2002? But You and Jody were not me.
Yeah. Wait. Let's see. Oh, yeah. You're good. You're okay. Yeah.
Especially Jodie during the pandemic when Yeah. With Eslin and Joe.
Work from home. But I always tell people, though, is
that because it was managed so deliberately
and well and respect for people was there in the workplace
(15:37):
and let's get real. In 2002, Disney was doing things
on the diversity front that some people still haven't caught up to
23 years later. Despite the fact that there
were a lot of, you know, Disney looking standards and service
standards and what we did there to provide that experience to the guest.
I have never been in any large organization of work that I've
(16:00):
never been more able to be an individual, right, to be myself
than in that environment. And it was good because the rules and
the standards and the relationships were managed with respect and clarity
that they were put in place as tools to help you thrive as opposed
to a book to beat you over the head with. And if you do it
right and you do it well, you can provide people that sense of belonging But
(16:22):
why do they feel like they belong? Because they're they were welcomed as the individual
that they are. It's possible if you do it right and you do it well
and you're thoughtful and deliberate about it. Oh, I think no, Corey, you said it
right there. We've gotta lead and manage people as individuals.
You gotta work work you know, it's like your 3 daughters. They're all different.
I guarantee you. And, we gotta deal with them
(16:44):
differently emotionally, and and, you
can't just put a blanket way to do it. And,
that's what people do that are tough and push hard. They only have one
answer because it's harder to deal with people. Because when you treat people as
individuals, you gotta try to figure out what's going on, why, what they
need, what does she need, what does he need, and it's different.
(17:05):
And, yeah, absolutely. I think that is one of the
biggest problems is we want to just have a policy, a
big policy we throw over everybody, and that doesn't work
because everybody's a little different. Oh, boy. You know? You know,
if you had a professor said he he said, we used to send you introverts,
and you send us back extroverts. And that's what it does, working in the
(17:27):
right place where you learn and interact and become more
comfortable and a manager treats you right, and you're not intimidated.
You wake up the morning, you don't want to go to work, not have to
go because sometimes your life is better at work, and
environment matters, and it matters a lot. Oh, totally. Yeah. And I
and one thing I find is that one thing that I think that creating
(17:49):
magic, your book does, and other things that you've done and you've worked on and
that I learned through you or at Disney or what have you, those principles
work at home too. I mean, and it's not because you're trying to run
your house like a business. It's because you've evolved to understand that it's all about
relationships and how you're nurturing them, and and and that works
in both places. Right? And how you're creating clarity in those relationships. When you
(18:11):
get home, tell your wife you love her before you turn the TV on. That's
right. Yeah. Do things in the right order, you'll be okay.
Well and and and if you're a really good operations guy, maybe you'll have the
checklist so you can, make sure you're Oh, maybe. And, you know, I
said, when you get to work, go around and see your team before you go
plug in your computer. You know, we used to say,
(18:32):
touch the people before you touch the work. HR said to
quit saying touch with people, so I had to change
that. You know, interact with your people before you go turn your computer on, put
your head down for the day, find out what's going on. Yeah. You know, it's
funny. That works really well. When that leadership challenge I was telling you
about, it was a team of about 25 to 40 people responsible for
(18:55):
making sure that anywhere between 6 to a
1000 people were well orchestrated in doing their jobs. There were schedulers and planners and
dispatchers and all that stuff. When I started going in every morning and
just before I went to my desk, and I purposely come in
about half an hour early to make time for this, I would go to each
person at their desk and say, how's your day going? Like, at this point, their
(19:16):
shift would have started earlier in the morning, so there's a good probably sample
size of what's happened that day. And how is your morning? How is it going?
And I learned this from you, actually. I then followed up
with, is there anything I can help you with today?
And when people were asked that for the first time, they were
like, what? What do you mean? And that and I said, look. I know you
(19:38):
know how to do your job, but sometimes you get a tricky question or tricky
situation or you don't know what do we do in these situations. This is
new or or I've got a tough one. You know? And that's
your opportunity if you need to get it out there to to ask, because
you might be nervous to come into my office even though the door is open.
I mean yeah. And as we talk about this, this is so
(19:59):
basic. Exactly. Anybody's not doing it. It
doesn't it's not just Disney or you or anybody can if
you care about people and by the way, that is your
resource. That is your business. You ought to take care of that
business as much as you do your computers. You know what I mean? It's,
it's what can drive you under very quickly and very quickly.
(20:22):
One employee could drive away customers. One person that answers
your phone and doesn't do it well. And, I mean, it's people, and
it's always people. And I today, I tried to call somebody back
that I was supposed to have a conference call with them at 1 o'clock.
And, they said they sent and 2 days ago, they said, we're
sending you the link to get in, and I
(20:44):
wrote her back for 2 days. I didn't get the link. You
know? Right before the call, I called her phone,
and it went through a whole tree, you know, a phone tree.
And, it was chaos. And I never did get
back to her, and she wrote me later and said, you okay, Lee? You weren't
on the call. I said, I know. And it turns out she has 2 emails.
(21:06):
One was not forwarding email to the other email. And I mean,
it's like, what? I mean,
mass confusion. And that's why people's you do that in business,
people just don't come back. They just say, I'm not making that call. Let get
that reservations for a restaurant, or for booking my
wedding, or what anything. I mean, the
(21:28):
hassle factor has got to go away, and it's the people that cause
hassles because we don't have a standard. We don't train them. We don't show them.
We don't care about them. I had met with a Disney leader this morning. He
said I said, why are you so successful? And he is. He said, I
think because I care. I care about them. Give the crap.
Yeah. That may be as simple. You don't have to get a cause to create
(21:49):
this care, or you might have a better life. Yeah.
And you can't fake that. You either care or you don't, and you can pretend
people see through it. But it's funny too because that asking people how I could
help them coupled with, you know, if they would say, hey. X,
y, and zed is happening. What should I do? The first thing I'd say, well,
what do you think? Right? And people are like, what do you mean? What do
I think? You're the boss. You're the authority. It's like, no, not really. I was
(22:13):
like, I, you know, I've been through this for years and I have ideas, but
what do you think? And I would tell people, and I learned, I
literally ripped this line off right from you. I pay you for your opinion. What
do you think? You're smart. A lot of them said I don't think. I don't
get enough to think. That's that's good. I'd like
you to start. But you know what? Like that. Where would you begin? After a
(22:34):
few months of doing that, the results were actually quite interesting because
people felt comfortable to talk about things, right, that were
going on. And what do you think? And what happened? And what can improve? And
and it got to the point where they were so comfortable and trust had been
built where every morning when I'd walk in, my office looked like a Catholic
confessional booth because everybody would come in and confess to me all
(22:56):
the things that they didn't think were perfect that day, but what they think they
could do differently. And I knew all the issues that I might get asked about
before I got asked about them because people knew that that environment was created
where people were motivated to always think about ways to do things better, and that
was great. They were trained properly on the tools to use and and the
culture and how we how we want our customers and our guests to feel. But
(23:18):
then they were respected and asked for their opinion and and asked if they needed
help. And so they felt comfortable with me to to be upfront and honest
about what blind spots there were on the team, what they were experiencing.
And, yeah, they people are if you treat people like adults, they'll
act like adults. Right? If you treat them like they have, they're smart, and they
can think, then they will be smart, and they can think. And you let them
(23:39):
do their work, and they will provide you with everything you need to
know both informationally and all of the above. And
you know this. I mean You tell people your customers and your
employees know everything you need to know if you can get it out of them.
They know what needs to be done, and what you know doesn't
get you in trouble in life. It's what you don't know. Scott.
(24:01):
And that's really I think about, oh, were you thinking over then?
Well, the truth is when you get the whole truth, you have a whole different
perspective about how you ought to operate your business. Things change. Yeah. So
here's a good question for you, Lee. I mean, you mentioned that when you first
started in leadership roles, you you know, you I think you used the word jerk,
but I was just gonna say struggle. But by the end of it, you're writing
(24:21):
books on how to lead. So you obviously have implemented,
you know, in your own leadership these principles that are in
the book. What was the change for you? What was what did it change
for you as a leader? Well, I think it's progressive, I think. You know, I
started out as a young kid, 20 years old. I didn't know anyone, and I
didn't really got out of the environment of a little farm
(24:43):
town in Oklahoma. I went to the big city, and I was,
probably I was a good manager because I was very organized and very
disciplined. So when somebody told me this something, I gotta do. And they
could rely on that. But nobody had ever talked about leadership or
how you treat people, and I was just get the work done, get the work
done. And, I eventually had a
(25:05):
bad reputation for being they said my nickname was Doberman.
And I started to think about that and went through a situation where a guy
told me he was really afraid of me coming visit his
property, of what might head up. And so I really took that
to heart. I mean, I was in my 30s when I really started thinking about
learning more about leadership. What does it really mean? How do you do
(25:28):
it? And start thinking about leaders in the world who had followers
and were able to have followers without
any authority. So I just progressively
and, by the way, the main reason I was like that, I had,
I was, I guess, my self confidence. I grew up
kind of a dysfunctional way, so I was I didn't think I knew anything. So
(25:51):
but I did know I was a good manager, and I knew that that got
things done because I had the power. But it's mainly
when people mistreat you, or raise their voice to you, or treat you badly,
that's somebody that's got a problem with their self confidence. You know?
Absolutely. There's no other reason. I mean, self confidence, I'm in charge. I
don't want people to know what I don't know. I don't want you to know
(26:13):
how dumb I am, so I'll be so mean to you, you'll stay away from
me, and you'll never ask questions. You'll just do what I say, because I
would say most leaders are have a big vacuum of what
they don't know. And I said, as soon as you understand
nobody knows what they're doing, you'll be feeling better. And, so I've
changed slowly but surely, and I started getting results. And,
(26:34):
yeah, and walking the business, going out and seeing I just started
changing my routine. I started writing better emails, like,
making sure at the end, I told them how much I appreciate them instead of
just cutting it off. Or and when I had a call, I told them I
would tell started telling people, you're doing a great job, thanks. I hope you're good.
Anything I can do for you? And it's you know, you kinda pick up you
(26:55):
kinda change. You're you become more mature,
older, and you learn. And, I think any change is
progressive. You know, you you get better. It's like exercise. Do more,
you get better at it. Anything you do, you get better at it. And I
was very focused on making sure that I was getting better at getting
people to to want to do their job, not have to do it because Lee
(27:15):
was watching. And, it's pretty basic. I
think that's the struggle many people go through is
insecurity and and the stress of business life
today, faster results, and wanting
to take a shortcut, lay everybody off, fire everybody,
get more people, make them come in 7 days a week. Now you got
(27:37):
I mean, sometimes the long way is the short way. You gotta
really hang in there, take care of the people, figure out how to
do it together, get their support when there are bad times. Maybe
they get more productive and help you. So it's it's a
road you gotta go down in, but you gotta know you got a problem. And
I figured out I had a problem, and I needed to get better at it.
(27:58):
So I can't do anything. I think most of us don't even admit what our
biggest problems are and, get help with them. You know, somebody
said, if you're having mental health problems, go see a psychiatrist.
And get some medication. Get better. Or if you got an infection, go
get help. And if you need help on something that you're not an expert in,
find an expert to help you with your business. Or by the way, I'm
(28:21):
curious about what kind of training are you doing for companies out
there today? They asked me today about the hiring, how to get
better at deciding who becomes a candidate for leadership
versus Yes. Good question. We do that. We
do offer training on how do I interview and identify. And
so I actually work together with Carol Quinn on on a lot of that stuff
(28:42):
too on MBI stuff, but we also do things like how do you
do take that to the next level and make kinda make you a more deliberate
succession plan? Who's ready for leadership or who although is
anybody ever a 100% ready? But who's the most ready? Who's doing the
work? Stuff like that. But we also do leadership trainings and time management
training and customer service training and all that type of stuff. So,
(29:04):
yeah, it's it's good. And, yeah, I mean, I enjoy doing that because it's
a chance to give back. Right? Some of the knowledge
that I have gained over the years and have seen it work. Yeah.
That's good. I had a client ask me the other day how they could get
better at out of all of frontline
employees they have, how can we identify the ones that
(29:26):
are most suited to become managers and leaders?
Yeah. We do help people with that because because and here's the thing that
happens a lot of times with that is that a lot of places, they
pick the person who's on the front line that shows up on time every day.
And don't get me wrong. That's important. But the skill set is
different. It's how are you all all the things we've just spent the last half
(29:47):
hour talking about. How are you leading people? Are you building those relationships? That's
the skill. Good example, you know, we recently a
couple years ago now, we recruited for a pharmacy here, where
I live, and they were having a hard time finding the right person to lead
the pharmacy because legally speaking, you need somebody who is a
licensed pharmacist to do that, to hold the license.
(30:09):
And a lot of those businesses, they find somebody who's dedicated to
pharmacy, and that's good. But the role has changed, and they were
identifying the wrong people. They they're identifying people that were
they enjoyed the chemical side or the, you know, the actual technical side
of the pharmacy, not so much the running the business and leading the people side.
So we actually did a search for them that focused on
(30:31):
leadership, building relationships in the community, you know, the
stuff that we've just spent time talking about. And it's crazy how much it
makes a difference, you know, find the right person who's motivated and passionate about those
two things. They weren't looking for a pharmacist. They're looking for
somebody who's a business person that happened to be a pharmacist too. We got them
in place, and within one monthly, they did as much revenue as they did the
(30:53):
whole 6 months prior. Probably saved the business. So
Very powerful. Right. You pick the right people. And one thing
because we could be here all day, but I have a feeling that I think
we've probably gone over our usual time, which is great. But one thing I
always like to point out to people, here's how I know personally
that what you talk about in creating magic works.
(31:16):
So I bought your book in 2015, right, when I was
up against it. I was like, I gotta do something here. And now in 2018,
the company that I worked for is a 5,000 person organization
across Canada. And once a year, I don't think they do it anymore, but they
did it for about 10 or 15 years. They would pick 1 leader
(31:36):
across the whole organization, and they would
recognize them as the one leader that did the most to build the
leadership capacity of the organization. In 2018,
I received that. It's sitting behind any behind pictures of my daughter because
they're more important, but than any business recognition. But
I received that for doing what I did, but I didn't really do it.
(31:59):
I just copied and pasted what you told me to do. So I That's what
we all do. There's nothing new in life. It's just gotta learn what and knowledge
is, yeah, it's out there as most of it's free.
So that's good good story. I don't know if you
recall, but I stay I I was like, oh, I can't, in a good faith,
accept this without recognizing Lee. So I sent you thoughts at the time
(32:20):
because of the times. Uh-huh. But yeah. I mean and all that
to say is that I know that what is in that book works. And if
people dig into it, like, it is a timeless manual
on how to weed genuinely and how to lead people effectively.
And so I can't recommend it enough. Well, when you put new good stuff in
your brand, then you got something to call on to help you solve problems. So
(32:43):
Yeah. Some people have a problem. Wyoming ain't up there.
So it is. So, yeah, good for you. 100
100%. So, anyway, I'm grateful for everything that I've learned from you over
the years. I mean, it started if I think about it in 2002 when I
was a cast member before you and I ever met. But the learning started then,
and I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And I will tell you that's how
(33:05):
I get my most satisfaction today is hearing people say, hey. That
I've gotten better. I learned something. Because I think teachers, when you're a teacher
instead of a boss, you make a difference, a bigger difference,
and you get more satisfaction than when people call you back and say, you helped
their life. And that's what I like, and I really encourage people today.
Make sure you're teaching, not not intimidating and not pushing people
(33:28):
around. It'll change your whole life. So yep.
100%. Well, I'm pretty sure that this is the point where Jody comes back in
and asks Lee, hey, Lee. How do we get a copy of Creating Magic, or
how do we get more information? So I'll let Jody do his part so I
don't take his job from him. Well, Tim, I think you I think you just
did that part. Lee, where where can we find out more about
you, what you're up to, how to get your books and your courses and
(33:51):
everything that you're working on? Well, everything's on my website,
leecockrell.com, but Canada certainly has Amazon
Canada, and it's there, And I know you can get
it there. And, anybody that can't get it, just send
me an email, lee@leecockrell.com, and we'll make sure
you find a place to get it. But, leeecockrell.com, everything
(34:13):
we do is on there, from our podcast, from
some free resources to the Cockrell Academy, a
subscription service on leadership. We put everything in one place, so
you'll find it. Alright, Lee. Thank you for
joining us for this episode to celebrate
100 episodes of World at Work. Tim, that is a big accomplishment.
(34:35):
Congratulations. And of course, Tim and I are happy that you're here
listening and helping us celebrate 100 episodes.
Thank you so much for listening to World at Work.
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