June 24, 2025 • 22 mins
"Rate results, not personality. Measurable goals create clarity and eliminate the drama."
Notable Moments
02:03 – Common complaints about performance evaluations
04:15 – Why rating personality traits is subjective and flawed
06:54 – Jody’s real-world example of objective goal-setting
09:59 – The value of goal-based evaluations
13:35 – Why tardiness and similar issues must be addressed in real-time
14:59 – The power of evaluation discussions
17:49 – A clear framework for monthly check-ins and progress
18:42 – How to introduce a new review system to your team
20:10 – Getting help with building your evaluation system
Performance reviews don’t have to be awkward or ineffective. In this episode, Tim and Jody unpack the flaws of traditional evaluation models, especially those based on subjective personality ratings. They investigate the better alternative of goal-based evaluations. Tim explains why focusing on measurable objectives improves clarity and eliminates unnecessary conflict. The episode covers how to structure and roll out a new evaluation process, what to communicate with your team, and how leaders can make reviews a helpful conversation rather than a dreaded formality.
Read the blog for more from this episode.
Connect with Tim and his team:
Website: https://bestculturesolutions.ca/
LinkedIn: Best Culture Solutions, Inc
Instagram: @best.culture.solutions
Email: tim@bestculturesolutions.ca
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to the World at Work podcast, where business leaders and
job seekers come together to create winning cultures and fulfilling
careers. I'm your host, Jody Mayberry, and I'm here with Tim
Dick, the founder of Best Culture Solutions. And when I
(00:22):
say I'm here with. I'm down in the States, great state of
Washington, and Tim is up in Alberta. Tim,
I think we're due to record some more in person episodes,
but we'll do what we can with what we have. You know, I agree
and you know that I will be in Seattle at some point
this year and we'll get it done. But what's funny about that is that I
(00:44):
am not just in Alberta today. I'm actually. People can't see this, but I'm
actually pulled over on the side of the road recording this with
Jody over Zoom at the pretty much the same place that he
and I once did record in person episodes while we were in my
truck driving around Alberta. So maybe this is where I meant to be,
if that's what you're thinking about today. That's right. And we caught
(01:06):
audio evidence of you nearly killing me while we were
driving. Did we mention that last time or. No, that that
happened like there was. You know, I do not remember if we mentioned
it on that episode. It's been a year. But we
probably edited out my shriek, my
utter terror when we just about had a collision.
(01:29):
But that's got nothing to do with today's episode. Yeah, I.
I think I have a topic, Tim, that is relevant
to anyone in any organization, whether you
supervise any people, whether you lead a team, whether you're at the
top, and it's performance evaluations. I feel like this
topic comes up so many times and people have
(01:52):
different views on them. As a former government
employee, we had so much when there was a very
particular process around it that it was.
And you weren't allowed to stray too much. So, for example,
let's say Lee Cockrell always talks about, well, they've got to be done.
They're not used, not very useful. But there should be no
(02:14):
surprises. It should be something you talk about every month. Yeah. Don't wait
till the end of the year. We've got other people talk about the rating
system. I'm sure you've seen those, Tim, given all the work you do in hr
that rate yourself one or not rate yourself. But here's
your rating of one through five. I used to have a supervisor
that made everybody write their own. And I really
(02:36):
discovered people downplayed themselves. I did not. I Am
shameless at self promotion, but most people would
downrate themselves. So that those are all my
thoughts him on evaluations. And given that
you are now an expert at these, I wanted to get your
take. Yeah, well, that it's true. So first of all, what Lee has
(02:58):
said is very true. If anything comes as a surprise
to you in evaluation, then then that means that as a
leader things haven't happened. There needs to be communication. Nothing should be a
surprise, you know, in that annual or semi annual review, depending on what your organization
does. But one thing that I do see happen
quite a bit with evaluations is that I often see companies
(03:21):
make a list of personal traits or character traits
that they want the people that work with them to have.
And then they rate them on how they think they are from 1 to 5.
And here's what I mean by that. Let's say that you're a company that values
customer service and respect to one another and maybe
people having integrity and stuff like that. In your workplace,
(03:43):
you might have a performance evaluation where you say, okay, on a, on a level
of 1 to 5, how are you at customer service? On a level of 1
to 5, how are you at accountability? And a lot of times either the leader
will do it themselves, right, they'll do it themselves. Or
and just tell them, you know, this is what we think that you are on
a scale of 1 to 5. And then everybody gets angry about it because they
(04:03):
don't agree. Or you know, the person will evaluate themselves and then
the leader will also evaluate and they'll have a conversation about it. But I don't
think that's a great model. And here's why. It's super subjective.
It's super subjective. It's like, oh, I think I'm
nice. Well, I don't think you are nice. And barely. It's what it is. At
the end of the day, it's how nice do you think this person is in
(04:24):
the workplace? And I find that, that one of
two things happens in those conversations because it is so subjective.
Either people can't agree on what, what this one person is,
right? And it gets really acrimonious and personally offensive to
some people. Like, what do you mean? I don't have integrity, if that's one of
the criteria. And that that can really set people off when they hear
(04:45):
that. So that either happens where it creates an unneeded and
unnecessary personal confrontation, a conflict between a supervisor and
somebody that works for them or with them. Or the second thing that
happens is that everybody is just being way Too polite. And they don't actually have
a real conversation about areas where the person can improve. Cause they are afraid of
the first option. But either way, you end up with a subjective process.
(05:06):
And because it's so subjective, a lot of times the truth does not really come
out anyway. And it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. It's a
broken model and it's highly subjective. And it can be create tons of
confrontation. So I don't know if you've seen those before. I know you mentioned, Jody,
you were a government employee and so your process, or process, depending on how
you say it, was pretty rigid. That would. Have you seen. Well,
(05:29):
I. I will tell you that usually what you
saw in the government was that it would just
be here, here are there be like five categories.
And your supervisor then would give a little
write up on how you did in that category and a ranking.
It might have been one to five. It might had words to it. That's
(05:51):
typical. And there wasn't a whole lot put into it.
Lot of supervisors would say, write it yourself and submit it to me. What
I did though, and I think this is related to what you were
talking about, what I did. Our director
had a contract with the commissioners based
on performance. This is what I'm going to do
(06:15):
during my next year as director. I would take
that and I would find. What did he say he could accomplish
out of that? What could I contribute to? Here's an
example. If he would say, I'm going over the next
year, our parks will build 40 new community
relationships. I would say, okay, in our
(06:38):
community, what group or organization can I build
a relationship? And then let's say I would pick the Marstone Island
Garden Club. And I said, over the next year,
I'm going to try to build a relationship that can
be documented on paper. Not just say, oh, I have a
relationship with the garden club. I would build a relationship
(07:00):
perhaps where the garden club would come to the park that actually,
let's say, do the flower beds around the ranger station and the welcome station.
Because I could directly point to
that goes up to the director's agreement with the
commissioners. Therefore, my work building that
relationship with the garden club directly contributed to the
(07:22):
goals that the director said we would accomplish this year. Right,
but it was an objective accomplishment that you either achieved or you did not achieve.
Right? That's right. Yeah. And so that's what I like about that.
Cause you. So you, you started by mentioning, you know, ratings and categories.
So was it both of that? There were ratings and Categories as well as objectives.
It really depended on your supervisor. I don't think it was standard across the board.
(07:46):
If, if your supervisor did not put
measurable objectives in your evaluation the year before.
Yeah. Then there would be none. So it was
really dependent on supervisors and some of them wanted them to be the
least work possible. So they just stuck to the categories and the
ratings and a one paragraph write up. But
(08:08):
managers that were more into being leadership and getting things
done would add subjective. Measurable
goals. Yeah. Measurable goals. Yeah. Objective, measurable goals. Because like,
objective. Yeah. And so that's, that's interesting because like that. So
I had just now gone on a rant about not, you know,
having only the ratings, right. And the categories and, and those are
(08:31):
entirely subjective. And it's funny that you say this because what
I have always thought is that a good alternative to,
that, a good alternative to the rating systems that are
completely subjective is to instead
have objective goals that people need to hit that will move the
business forward in some way. So it's interesting that you had, you
(08:53):
did have that in some situations. And here's why. It's because,
look, you either hit those goals or you don't, right? It's not subjective about, I
think you're really nice and I don't think you're really nice or whatever it might
be, right? And I'm using an extreme example around the niceness thing,
but it's just simple. You either got the goal or not. And all those
professional qualities that people might have, the integrities, you know, the
(09:14):
time, those things that are subjectively rated, if you have
those things in place, then you will hit your goals. You don't need to rate
people on those things. You don't need to rate people on these, on these personal
categories anymore. Because when it comes to those objective
goals, you know, people who don't have those professional capabilities
simply will not hit them. And so one thing that we often talk to clients
(09:36):
about is coming up with, you know, three to five goals that will move
the business forward in some way. So it's interesting that you actually took a plan
and found things that would move the business forward and have that
person, you know, take those goals on and they either
hit them or they don't, right? And you know, what's happening throughout the year.
So in my, in my opinion, and so I guess, sorry, let me backtrack, you
(09:58):
know, what's happened throughout the year. So it won't be a surprise, right? How their
progress is and the goals is going to be when they have their performance review.
And having a performance management or performance review system where people set
goals for the next year and then they're held accountable towards holding them is a
far clearer way more, a far more objective way for
people to be able to line things up right and, and do their job.
(10:19):
In my opinion. That's what we often recommend. Instead of scales of 1
to 5 ratings, categories, stuff like that related to. What
Tim just told us. I can recall sections like what
does Tim need to improve on? Where managers would just write
need to improve time management. Well, how do you even measure
that? How would you measure that Tim has improved in time
(10:41):
management from 1January to the next January?
All subjective, right? It's all subjective. And you may well have. Right. And your
boss or your supervisor may have felt that improvement or seen that improvement or noticed
that improvement. But the reality is that how do you really fully measure it,
you know? Yeah, but if you also take what Tim was saying about
if you're good at the other things, you will meet the goal.
(11:04):
So if we had a goal, for example, that
you will open 10 new accounts, I'm trying to
do a basic example that could fit in a lot of things now you will
open 10 new accounts over the year. Well, you're not going to be able to
do that if you're not good at time management. So therefore, if
you meet that goal, you had to have managed your time very
(11:26):
well. Well, and not to mention, let's take that time management example again.
In order to move forward on strategic goals, you simply need to have
good time management skills because that's what those goals are. They're things that will move
things forward strategically in some way. And you know, all of those
goals, you know, take those leadership skills that people are otherwise being rated on in
those categories, the time managements, the ability to get buy in from your teammates,
(11:48):
you know, acting with integrity. Because nobody's going to help you with your goals if
you don't. You know, those things have to be there to meet those goals. And
especially the time management piece, people struggle all the time in getting
things moved forward from a time management perspective because they get so
distracted by operating tactically or, or things come
up or fires come up that they end up wanting to put out, you know,
(12:08):
and they always get distracted from those goals. And so yeah, I
mean, if you didn't have that skill, then you simply would not
be managing your time or you wouldn't be achieving those goals. If you didn't have
the time management skills, you don't achieve the goal if you don't have, you know,
the working with other skills that sometimes people get subjectively rated on, you're
not going to meet the goal. And that's really all there is to it. And
so it removes those really. And I'm not afraid of tough
(12:32):
conversations, but those tough conversations that get nowhere where people are arguing
over whether or not you can manage your time well or whatever with these categories
or traits, it wipes them out of the way and you either made your goal
or you didn't. And then the conversation, you know,
no longer turns from spinning your tires on personal qualities that are
subjective. Now your conversations with that person are about how do you attack a
(12:53):
problem and fix it? And that's time better spent as well.
I like the direction you taken this with performance
reviews, because quite often they're just used in a
different way. They're often used as check the box because
we have to do this, so let's just get it done. They are
used almost as a
(13:15):
enforcement tool. For example, I could
put on your evaluation lists six dates Tim was
late for work in the last year. I've seen things like that happen
where I never talked to Tim about it at the time, but I
documented it and then I put it in his performance review. That's not
a good way to go about it either. No, it's not, because it should have
(13:37):
been addressed long before then on the spot. Because
it just should have been, right? Because why wait a year to rectify a problem?
Meanwhile, that year could pass. You haven't addressed the problem, and you might need to
let them go. Right? Because you have not been upfront with them about the problem.
And so I agree with you on that. And it's. Anything that you can do
to get that clarity on the spot is key. The other thing too, about
(13:57):
having a set of strategic goals that really helps is that it's now
harder for a leader to try to push things off to that
annual review that need to be addressed now, such as those traits,
the tardiness or whatever might be. Because now you can't hide behind
your performance management reviews because they're based on goals, not
specific traits. And so you have to address them upfront or else the problem
(14:19):
will linger or you'll have other issues. Right? So let's
also talk about the interaction
based on performance reviews. The last one
I recall getting when I had a government job was
emailed to me and my supervisor said, here's your
annual review. Let me know if you have questions. That was it.
(14:41):
No discussion. I've had others that just prompted
wonderful discussions about the goals of the park,
some of the big projects coming up over the year, opportunities
that I have, maybe things that I should improve. So I've had it
both ways. I've had it emailed to me with no discussion. I. And I've had
discussions around it that are a couple hours talking about
(15:04):
the future and what's going on. What do you
recommend when it comes to the actual interaction around
performance reviews? Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's good
to always verbal with people that this is coming, right? You know, hey, it's that
time of year, just so you know it's going to come to you. These are
structures, our formats. I think you need to have, you know, just a heads up
(15:25):
with your team that it's coming, remind people the structure and format, the goals that
they're trying. Like what is the goal, the process, how will the process work? If
you're using a form template, how does it look and why does it look that
way? You know, stuff like that. But then I think you need to have a
good conversation with people, you know, a good candid conversation with
people when they are setting those goals around, you know,
(15:46):
where do they want to go with their career? Why, why do they think these
goals can help us? Why? You know, why is this the best way to move
the, the needle forward or to, to move things forward? What can this do
for the organization? You know, what are some of your strengths that you can bring
to achieving those goals, you know, and then again and going into strengths
and maybe challenges that people have that might dip a little bit back into some
(16:06):
of the subjective stuff that we're trying to avoid. However,
it makes it more objective when you talk about those traits because now
it's being put through the lens and filter of a specific goal and it
invites more honesty from both sides about what somebody's
strengths and challenges might be. Because it's now related directly
to a goal, to an objective goal that, that is good for the
(16:28):
organization that person's trying to hit. But I guess what I'm trying to say is
that, you know, I would, I would communicate with people that it's coming, communicate with
it to them verbally or, or through a large team group meeting or,
or whatever. And then from there though, you know, and explain to
them, make sure that you have, like we talked about communication. One thing you should
make sure you have is a template that is consistent that way
(16:49):
that tracks those goals and also
tracks the measurables, you know, for those goals. So that
way it's clear and there's clarity for both sides and it's documented. And then you
should have a meeting with the people about what do you think those goals should
be? You know, have them come do some homework, have them come prepared with goals
but then have a really good candid conversation about, all right, what is it that
you want to do? How's it going to help us? How's it going to help
(17:11):
our team? What are some of the things that you bring to the table that
can get us there? What are some of the things that you might struggle with
challenging for you as you achieve this goal? And then once you're done,
make sure that those are the goals and the measurables and, and the things that
you talked about as far as what might be easier or not as easy for
you as you go through that journey, make sure you document those things. So,
so that way it's all on paper and people have it and send it back
(17:33):
to that person. So everybody has it and everybody's working together to help that person
get to the destination. And then from there I always say as well, just have
monthly check ins with those people. How are you doing in your goals? And find
out if there's any roadblocks, see if you can help remove them for them and
then hold them accountable to it once it's removed. So that way you can help
people achieve those goals. Because everybody feels better, right, when those big goals get
(17:54):
achieved and then once the period of time is over, you have that meeting to
see where you got and then there you go. Yeah, that to me is a
good top to bottom, full cycle, you know, communication
process towards the performance goal or performance management or an
annual performance review process. My last question about these,
Tim, you laid out a great process, a great view
(18:16):
for doing performance reviews. But if we've been a
supervisor for a while and we've never done them in this way,
want to take what you have implemented, which is a
much different than what we've done before. How do you recommend
introducing the new format and goals
instead of just you're going to get ratings and I'm going to write a little
(18:38):
something about you. How do you recommend introducing this?
Well, I'll tell you what I think you could do and you can tell me
what you think of this, but I, I think that it's pretty simple. I think
again it's just an honest conversation. Like you know what, something's
changing, right? And I think you get the team together and you explain to them
the change. You explain to Them why the change and what you believe the benefits
will be for the team, not just for you or for the company, but for
(19:01):
the team. And you walk them through how it will work, right? What will the
process look like so that way they can start to mentally prepare and they're not
blindsided by it. You know, what can you expect from the process? What do I
need you to think about between now and then? And I think that that's what
you do. And I. And I think then you back it up as well with
a written communication that summarizes that you should have a presentation that
people can see and get a feel for what the actual performance management
(19:24):
or annual review document will look like so they can visualize it. Then you
follow it up as well with other types of communication, such as emails. And
you ask people individually if they have any questions about it and just support the
team as much as you can. But you do need to have a proper, fuller
communication plan to reset your process and explain it. You
know, again, I think a lot of times you start in person and you present
(19:45):
it to people. Then you follow it up with written communications and then just
informal follow ups when you're talking to people. And you know, and Katie and I
did an episode on this last time, not everybody's gonna love the change. Some people
are gonna love the change and a lot of people won't carry their way. And
so be prepared for all sides of that, right? And just be prepared for people
to have something to say or not to say. But if you know that it's
going to make a good impact for you on the whole, regardless of what everybody's
(20:07):
going to say, then don't be afraid of making that change. What if
now that we've heard you say this and we say, my goodness, we need an
overhaul on how we do performance evaluations. Perhaps we need to
train our people who have direct reports on how
to do performance evaluations. Who can we turn to? How can we get
help? Well, we could help them, but after you started the
(20:29):
episode telling them about our near collision, they might not trust me with this. And
I think people are wondering what happened there. And I think we should finish the
story first. And basically for people that are listening, and
a lot of people listen from the United States, I'm sure everybody's been in a
situation where a busy freeway or interstate is so busy and you're
traveling at the flow of traffic and suddenly in front of you somebody stops because
(20:50):
something's happening and then you got to slam on the brakes and hope you stop
before anybody else. And Jody and I, we stopped on time and that happened to
us and we were okay. And really it was just a test because I've never
seen Jody used bad language before and I wanted to see if
it would work and it did not work. He shrieked like he said and he
edited out of the episode, but he did not use bad language and he stayed
(21:10):
very calm. All that to say, if you'd like help with your
performance reviews and you want to set up more of a goal or
objective based system, we would love to help you with that and we can
be reached very simply. Our website is bestculturesolutions. Ca. My email
is tim.bestculturesolutions. ca. Yeah, Tim is
right on. What happened? The only other consequence
(21:32):
was my room temperature cola fell onto the
floorboard of the truck. That was it. Otherwise everything was good.
All right, Tim, this was a great discussion. If you would like help with
this, please do reach out to Tim and Best Culture Solutions.
Thank you so much, Tim and thank you for listening to World at.
(21:56):
It.
Foreign.
Welcome to the World at Work podcast, where business leaders and
job seekers come together to create winning cultures and fulfilling
careers. I'm your host, Jody Mayberry, and I'm here with Tim
Dick, the founder of Best Culture Solutions. And when I
(00:22):
say I'm here with. I'm down in the States, great state of
Washington, and Tim is up in Alberta. Tim,
I think we're due to record some more in person episodes,
but we'll do what we can with what we have. You know, I agree
and you know that I will be in Seattle at some point
this year and we'll get it done. But what's funny about that is that I
(00:44):
am not just in Alberta today. I'm actually. People can't see this, but I'm
actually pulled over on the side of the road recording this with
Jody over Zoom at the pretty much the same place that he
and I once did record in person episodes while we were in my
truck driving around Alberta. So maybe this is where I meant to be,
if that's what you're thinking about today. That's right. And we caught
(01:06):
audio evidence of you nearly killing me while we were
driving. Did we mention that last time or. No, that that
happened like there was. You know, I do not remember if we mentioned
it on that episode. It's been a year. But we
probably edited out my shriek, my
utter terror when we just about had a collision.
(01:29):
But that's got nothing to do with today's episode. Yeah, I.
I think I have a topic, Tim, that is relevant
to anyone in any organization, whether you
supervise any people, whether you lead a team, whether you're at the
top, and it's performance evaluations. I feel like this
topic comes up so many times and people have
(01:52):
different views on them. As a former government
employee, we had so much when there was a very
particular process around it that it was.
And you weren't allowed to stray too much. So, for example,
let's say Lee Cockrell always talks about, well, they've got to be done.
They're not used, not very useful. But there should be no
(02:14):
surprises. It should be something you talk about every month. Yeah. Don't wait
till the end of the year. We've got other people talk about the rating
system. I'm sure you've seen those, Tim, given all the work you do in hr
that rate yourself one or not rate yourself. But here's
your rating of one through five. I used to have a supervisor
that made everybody write their own. And I really
(02:36):
discovered people downplayed themselves. I did not. I Am
shameless at self promotion, but most people would
downrate themselves. So that those are all my
thoughts him on evaluations. And given that
you are now an expert at these, I wanted to get your
take. Yeah, well, that it's true. So first of all, what Lee has
(02:58):
said is very true. If anything comes as a surprise
to you in evaluation, then then that means that as a
leader things haven't happened. There needs to be communication. Nothing should be a
surprise, you know, in that annual or semi annual review, depending on what your organization
does. But one thing that I do see happen
quite a bit with evaluations is that I often see companies
(03:21):
make a list of personal traits or character traits
that they want the people that work with them to have.
And then they rate them on how they think they are from 1 to 5.
And here's what I mean by that. Let's say that you're a company that values
customer service and respect to one another and maybe
people having integrity and stuff like that. In your workplace,
(03:43):
you might have a performance evaluation where you say, okay, on a, on a level
of 1 to 5, how are you at customer service? On a level of 1
to 5, how are you at accountability? And a lot of times either the leader
will do it themselves, right, they'll do it themselves. Or
and just tell them, you know, this is what we think that you are on
a scale of 1 to 5. And then everybody gets angry about it because they
(04:03):
don't agree. Or you know, the person will evaluate themselves and then
the leader will also evaluate and they'll have a conversation about it. But I don't
think that's a great model. And here's why. It's super subjective.
It's super subjective. It's like, oh, I think I'm
nice. Well, I don't think you are nice. And barely. It's what it is. At
the end of the day, it's how nice do you think this person is in
(04:24):
the workplace? And I find that, that one of
two things happens in those conversations because it is so subjective.
Either people can't agree on what, what this one person is,
right? And it gets really acrimonious and personally offensive to
some people. Like, what do you mean? I don't have integrity, if that's one of
the criteria. And that that can really set people off when they hear
(04:45):
that. So that either happens where it creates an unneeded and
unnecessary personal confrontation, a conflict between a supervisor and
somebody that works for them or with them. Or the second thing that
happens is that everybody is just being way Too polite. And they don't actually have
a real conversation about areas where the person can improve. Cause they are afraid of
the first option. But either way, you end up with a subjective process.
(05:06):
And because it's so subjective, a lot of times the truth does not really come
out anyway. And it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. It's a
broken model and it's highly subjective. And it can be create tons of
confrontation. So I don't know if you've seen those before. I know you mentioned, Jody,
you were a government employee and so your process, or process, depending on how
you say it, was pretty rigid. That would. Have you seen. Well,
(05:29):
I. I will tell you that usually what you
saw in the government was that it would just
be here, here are there be like five categories.
And your supervisor then would give a little
write up on how you did in that category and a ranking.
It might have been one to five. It might had words to it. That's
(05:51):
typical. And there wasn't a whole lot put into it.
Lot of supervisors would say, write it yourself and submit it to me. What
I did though, and I think this is related to what you were
talking about, what I did. Our director
had a contract with the commissioners based
on performance. This is what I'm going to do
(06:15):
during my next year as director. I would take
that and I would find. What did he say he could accomplish
out of that? What could I contribute to? Here's an
example. If he would say, I'm going over the next
year, our parks will build 40 new community
relationships. I would say, okay, in our
(06:38):
community, what group or organization can I build
a relationship? And then let's say I would pick the Marstone Island
Garden Club. And I said, over the next year,
I'm going to try to build a relationship that can
be documented on paper. Not just say, oh, I have a
relationship with the garden club. I would build a relationship
(07:00):
perhaps where the garden club would come to the park that actually,
let's say, do the flower beds around the ranger station and the welcome station.
Because I could directly point to
that goes up to the director's agreement with the
commissioners. Therefore, my work building that
relationship with the garden club directly contributed to the
(07:22):
goals that the director said we would accomplish this year. Right,
but it was an objective accomplishment that you either achieved or you did not achieve.
Right? That's right. Yeah. And so that's what I like about that.
Cause you. So you, you started by mentioning, you know, ratings and categories.
So was it both of that? There were ratings and Categories as well as objectives.
It really depended on your supervisor. I don't think it was standard across the board.
(07:46):
If, if your supervisor did not put
measurable objectives in your evaluation the year before.
Yeah. Then there would be none. So it was
really dependent on supervisors and some of them wanted them to be the
least work possible. So they just stuck to the categories and the
ratings and a one paragraph write up. But
(08:08):
managers that were more into being leadership and getting things
done would add subjective. Measurable
goals. Yeah. Measurable goals. Yeah. Objective, measurable goals. Because like,
objective. Yeah. And so that's, that's interesting because like that. So
I had just now gone on a rant about not, you know,
having only the ratings, right. And the categories and, and those are
(08:31):
entirely subjective. And it's funny that you say this because what
I have always thought is that a good alternative to,
that, a good alternative to the rating systems that are
completely subjective is to instead
have objective goals that people need to hit that will move the
business forward in some way. So it's interesting that you had, you
(08:53):
did have that in some situations. And here's why. It's because,
look, you either hit those goals or you don't, right? It's not subjective about, I
think you're really nice and I don't think you're really nice or whatever it might
be, right? And I'm using an extreme example around the niceness thing,
but it's just simple. You either got the goal or not. And all those
professional qualities that people might have, the integrities, you know, the
(09:14):
time, those things that are subjectively rated, if you have
those things in place, then you will hit your goals. You don't need to rate
people on those things. You don't need to rate people on these, on these personal
categories anymore. Because when it comes to those objective
goals, you know, people who don't have those professional capabilities
simply will not hit them. And so one thing that we often talk to clients
(09:36):
about is coming up with, you know, three to five goals that will move
the business forward in some way. So it's interesting that you actually took a plan
and found things that would move the business forward and have that
person, you know, take those goals on and they either
hit them or they don't, right? And you know, what's happening throughout the year.
So in my, in my opinion, and so I guess, sorry, let me backtrack, you
(09:58):
know, what's happened throughout the year. So it won't be a surprise, right? How their
progress is and the goals is going to be when they have their performance review.
And having a performance management or performance review system where people set
goals for the next year and then they're held accountable towards holding them is a
far clearer way more, a far more objective way for
people to be able to line things up right and, and do their job.
(10:19):
In my opinion. That's what we often recommend. Instead of scales of 1
to 5 ratings, categories, stuff like that related to. What
Tim just told us. I can recall sections like what
does Tim need to improve on? Where managers would just write
need to improve time management. Well, how do you even measure
that? How would you measure that Tim has improved in time
(10:41):
management from 1January to the next January?
All subjective, right? It's all subjective. And you may well have. Right. And your
boss or your supervisor may have felt that improvement or seen that improvement or noticed
that improvement. But the reality is that how do you really fully measure it,
you know? Yeah, but if you also take what Tim was saying about
if you're good at the other things, you will meet the goal.
(11:04):
So if we had a goal, for example, that
you will open 10 new accounts, I'm trying to
do a basic example that could fit in a lot of things now you will
open 10 new accounts over the year. Well, you're not going to be able to
do that if you're not good at time management. So therefore, if
you meet that goal, you had to have managed your time very
(11:26):
well. Well, and not to mention, let's take that time management example again.
In order to move forward on strategic goals, you simply need to have
good time management skills because that's what those goals are. They're things that will move
things forward strategically in some way. And you know, all of those
goals, you know, take those leadership skills that people are otherwise being rated on in
those categories, the time managements, the ability to get buy in from your teammates,
(11:48):
you know, acting with integrity. Because nobody's going to help you with your goals if
you don't. You know, those things have to be there to meet those goals. And
especially the time management piece, people struggle all the time in getting
things moved forward from a time management perspective because they get so
distracted by operating tactically or, or things come
up or fires come up that they end up wanting to put out, you know,
(12:08):
and they always get distracted from those goals. And so yeah, I
mean, if you didn't have that skill, then you simply would not
be managing your time or you wouldn't be achieving those goals. If you didn't have
the time management skills, you don't achieve the goal if you don't have, you know,
the working with other skills that sometimes people get subjectively rated on, you're
not going to meet the goal. And that's really all there is to it. And
so it removes those really. And I'm not afraid of tough
(12:32):
conversations, but those tough conversations that get nowhere where people are arguing
over whether or not you can manage your time well or whatever with these categories
or traits, it wipes them out of the way and you either made your goal
or you didn't. And then the conversation, you know,
no longer turns from spinning your tires on personal qualities that are
subjective. Now your conversations with that person are about how do you attack a
(12:53):
problem and fix it? And that's time better spent as well.
I like the direction you taken this with performance
reviews, because quite often they're just used in a
different way. They're often used as check the box because
we have to do this, so let's just get it done. They are
used almost as a
(13:15):
enforcement tool. For example, I could
put on your evaluation lists six dates Tim was
late for work in the last year. I've seen things like that happen
where I never talked to Tim about it at the time, but I
documented it and then I put it in his performance review. That's not
a good way to go about it either. No, it's not, because it should have
(13:37):
been addressed long before then on the spot. Because
it just should have been, right? Because why wait a year to rectify a problem?
Meanwhile, that year could pass. You haven't addressed the problem, and you might need to
let them go. Right? Because you have not been upfront with them about the problem.
And so I agree with you on that. And it's. Anything that you can do
to get that clarity on the spot is key. The other thing too, about
(13:57):
having a set of strategic goals that really helps is that it's now
harder for a leader to try to push things off to that
annual review that need to be addressed now, such as those traits,
the tardiness or whatever might be. Because now you can't hide behind
your performance management reviews because they're based on goals, not
specific traits. And so you have to address them upfront or else the problem
(14:19):
will linger or you'll have other issues. Right? So let's
also talk about the interaction
based on performance reviews. The last one
I recall getting when I had a government job was
emailed to me and my supervisor said, here's your
annual review. Let me know if you have questions. That was it.
(14:41):
No discussion. I've had others that just prompted
wonderful discussions about the goals of the park,
some of the big projects coming up over the year, opportunities
that I have, maybe things that I should improve. So I've had it
both ways. I've had it emailed to me with no discussion. I. And I've had
discussions around it that are a couple hours talking about
(15:04):
the future and what's going on. What do you
recommend when it comes to the actual interaction around
performance reviews? Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's good
to always verbal with people that this is coming, right? You know, hey, it's that
time of year, just so you know it's going to come to you. These are
structures, our formats. I think you need to have, you know, just a heads up
(15:25):
with your team that it's coming, remind people the structure and format, the goals that
they're trying. Like what is the goal, the process, how will the process work? If
you're using a form template, how does it look and why does it look that
way? You know, stuff like that. But then I think you need to have a
good conversation with people, you know, a good candid conversation with
people when they are setting those goals around, you know,
(15:46):
where do they want to go with their career? Why, why do they think these
goals can help us? Why? You know, why is this the best way to move
the, the needle forward or to, to move things forward? What can this do
for the organization? You know, what are some of your strengths that you can bring
to achieving those goals, you know, and then again and going into strengths
and maybe challenges that people have that might dip a little bit back into some
(16:06):
of the subjective stuff that we're trying to avoid. However,
it makes it more objective when you talk about those traits because now
it's being put through the lens and filter of a specific goal and it
invites more honesty from both sides about what somebody's
strengths and challenges might be. Because it's now related directly
to a goal, to an objective goal that, that is good for the
(16:28):
organization that person's trying to hit. But I guess what I'm trying to say is
that, you know, I would, I would communicate with people that it's coming, communicate with
it to them verbally or, or through a large team group meeting or,
or whatever. And then from there though, you know, and explain to
them, make sure that you have, like we talked about communication. One thing you should
make sure you have is a template that is consistent that way
(16:49):
that tracks those goals and also
tracks the measurables, you know, for those goals. So that
way it's clear and there's clarity for both sides and it's documented. And then you
should have a meeting with the people about what do you think those goals should
be? You know, have them come do some homework, have them come prepared with goals
but then have a really good candid conversation about, all right, what is it that
you want to do? How's it going to help us? How's it going to help
(17:11):
our team? What are some of the things that you bring to the table that
can get us there? What are some of the things that you might struggle with
challenging for you as you achieve this goal? And then once you're done,
make sure that those are the goals and the measurables and, and the things that
you talked about as far as what might be easier or not as easy for
you as you go through that journey, make sure you document those things. So,
so that way it's all on paper and people have it and send it back
(17:33):
to that person. So everybody has it and everybody's working together to help that person
get to the destination. And then from there I always say as well, just have
monthly check ins with those people. How are you doing in your goals? And find
out if there's any roadblocks, see if you can help remove them for them and
then hold them accountable to it once it's removed. So that way you can help
people achieve those goals. Because everybody feels better, right, when those big goals get
(17:54):
achieved and then once the period of time is over, you have that meeting to
see where you got and then there you go. Yeah, that to me is a
good top to bottom, full cycle, you know, communication
process towards the performance goal or performance management or an
annual performance review process. My last question about these,
Tim, you laid out a great process, a great view
(18:16):
for doing performance reviews. But if we've been a
supervisor for a while and we've never done them in this way,
want to take what you have implemented, which is a
much different than what we've done before. How do you recommend
introducing the new format and goals
instead of just you're going to get ratings and I'm going to write a little
(18:38):
something about you. How do you recommend introducing this?
Well, I'll tell you what I think you could do and you can tell me
what you think of this, but I, I think that it's pretty simple. I think
again it's just an honest conversation. Like you know what, something's
changing, right? And I think you get the team together and you explain to them
the change. You explain to Them why the change and what you believe the benefits
will be for the team, not just for you or for the company, but for
(19:01):
the team. And you walk them through how it will work, right? What will the
process look like so that way they can start to mentally prepare and they're not
blindsided by it. You know, what can you expect from the process? What do I
need you to think about between now and then? And I think that that's what
you do. And I. And I think then you back it up as well with
a written communication that summarizes that you should have a presentation that
people can see and get a feel for what the actual performance management
(19:24):
or annual review document will look like so they can visualize it. Then you
follow it up as well with other types of communication, such as emails. And
you ask people individually if they have any questions about it and just support the
team as much as you can. But you do need to have a proper, fuller
communication plan to reset your process and explain it. You
know, again, I think a lot of times you start in person and you present
(19:45):
it to people. Then you follow it up with written communications and then just
informal follow ups when you're talking to people. And you know, and Katie and I
did an episode on this last time, not everybody's gonna love the change. Some people
are gonna love the change and a lot of people won't carry their way. And
so be prepared for all sides of that, right? And just be prepared for people
to have something to say or not to say. But if you know that it's
going to make a good impact for you on the whole, regardless of what everybody's
(20:07):
going to say, then don't be afraid of making that change. What if
now that we've heard you say this and we say, my goodness, we need an
overhaul on how we do performance evaluations. Perhaps we need to
train our people who have direct reports on how
to do performance evaluations. Who can we turn to? How can we get
help? Well, we could help them, but after you started the
(20:29):
episode telling them about our near collision, they might not trust me with this. And
I think people are wondering what happened there. And I think we should finish the
story first. And basically for people that are listening, and
a lot of people listen from the United States, I'm sure everybody's been in a
situation where a busy freeway or interstate is so busy and you're
traveling at the flow of traffic and suddenly in front of you somebody stops because
(20:50):
something's happening and then you got to slam on the brakes and hope you stop
before anybody else. And Jody and I, we stopped on time and that happened to
us and we were okay. And really it was just a test because I've never
seen Jody used bad language before and I wanted to see if
it would work and it did not work. He shrieked like he said and he
edited out of the episode, but he did not use bad language and he stayed
(21:10):
very calm. All that to say, if you'd like help with your
performance reviews and you want to set up more of a goal or
objective based system, we would love to help you with that and we can
be reached very simply. Our website is bestculturesolutions. Ca. My email
is tim.bestculturesolutions. ca. Yeah, Tim is
right on. What happened? The only other consequence
(21:32):
was my room temperature cola fell onto the
floorboard of the truck. That was it. Otherwise everything was good.
All right, Tim, this was a great discussion. If you would like help with
this, please do reach out to Tim and Best Culture Solutions.
Thank you so much, Tim and thank you for listening to World at.
(21:56):
It.
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