December 4, 2024 • 27 mins
Have you ever wondered if you should self-publish your book, or go through a traditional publisher? This week, we're weighing the pros and cons of each to figure out which method is best for you.
Links mentioned:
- Talking Scared Podcast, Episode #003: Spotify | Apple Podcasts
- Sarah's indie (self-published) audio drama, Girl In Space
- The Write Now Podcast Discord Community
Thank you for listening! For show notes and a full transcript of this episode, please visit: https://www.sarahwerner.com/should-i-self-publish-wn-162/
To support the work I do here at the Write Now podcast, become a patron on Patreon at https://patreon.com/sarahrheawerner, or send me a tip on Ko-Fi at https://ko-fi.com/sarahwerner.
Happy writing!
— Sarah
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is the Write Now Podcastwith Sarah Werner, episode 162:
Should I Self-Publish?
(00:27):
Welcome to Write Now, the podcastthat helps all writers - aspiring,
professional, and otherwise- to find the time, energy,
and courage you need topursue your passion and write.
I'm your host, Sarah Werner,
and today we're going to betalking about self-publishing and
traditional publishing.When I talk about traditional
(00:49):
publishing,
I'm talking about going through apublisher - so getting an agent,
submitting your manuscript,
and going with an existing publisher whowill then publish and distribute your
book. When I talk about self-publishing,
I'm talking about doing it yourself.
I want to be very, incredibly,
(01:10):
super clear right from the startthat I'm not going to tell you which
publishing method isright for you. In fact,
if you go through thebacklog of this podcast,
this is actually a topicthat I've largely avoided.
That's because there are justso many factors surrounding your
decision,
(01:30):
whether you would like to publish yourwork through a traditional publisher or
by yourself,
and I am not in any way certified orqualified to tell you which one is better
or right for you.Now,
I'm talking about this today becauseI received a question from a listener
over in the Write Now podcastDiscord that summed up,
(01:52):
I think really well,
some of the current frustrations that alot of you might be going through with
your creative work at this time.
It is a very weird time to be an author
and to be publishing orto be trying to become
published. I don't know if thatgrammatically made sense, but here we are.
(02:14):
And again,
there are so many people whoare better qualified than I
am to go into the ins and outs ofwhere the traditional publishing
industry is today,
but I want to speak to some ofthe life decisions and some of the
feelings that you might be going throughas you wrestle with this decision.
(02:36):
So - here's the question I receivedfrom podcast listener Edward.
Edward says, "Hi. I could use someencouraging and thoughtful feedback.
I finished writing a novel that I'mprobably a little too emotionally invested
in, and I've been working on it andrefining it for about nine years.
In that time period, I'vesubmitted it to 74 agents.
(02:59):
I've had a couple full manuscriptrequests, but mostly rejections.
I told myself that I should try toget at least a hundred submissions,
then consider self-publishing.
I'd really like to see it outthere just for my own satisfaction,
but I understand that it could be a wholelot better if I had the collaborative
magic that comes from going viatraditional publishing editors, agents,
(03:23):
et cetera.
But I'm tired - really tired.
Is it giving up or lazy to justself-publish it now and move on?
Should I be true to myoriginal goal and persevere,
or should I embrace the freedomand enjoyment that could come from
self-publishing it my own way? Ishould add, I'm a graphic designer,
(03:45):
so I will have no problem makingmy novel look professional.
I've gone back and forth and Ijust can't decide." So again,
that was a question submittedby podcast listener Edward,
but I think that it mightresonate with some /
many / all of you.I want to start with Edward's concern that
(04:08):
he is quote too emotionallyinvested in his work:
I have good news for you.
You are not too emotionallyinvested in your work.
You created this book - andto everyone else listening,
whatever it is you're working on,you're creating this. You created this.
It's part of you.
(04:28):
You've put your heart and yoursoul into this piece of work.
It's yours, and more than that, it's you.
It's a representation of you in the world.When you
publish something, peopleattach what you've published,
what you've outright declared,as part of who you are.
(04:48):
I've had people who listen to GirlIn Space, my audio fiction podcast,
who feel like they know me becausethey've listened to my work.
And similarly, Girl In Spaceis a deeply personal project.
I wrote that originally tocome to terms with a lot of
things that were going on in mylife at the time - relationships,
(05:12):
work circumstances,
looking for a new way to live and thrive.
I put myself on the page, and Ithink that you probably do, too.
You created something. You'reproud of it, and it's yours.
I don't think you are tooemotionally invested in it.
I think that being emotionallyinvested in your work is healthy. Now,
(05:35):
if you get to the point where you areprecious with your work - and by that I
mean, someone agrees to publish it,
but they want you to make a few changesand you just dig in your heels and you
say no - then you're kind of getting into
a little too-attached territory.
I think there's a balance between knowingand loving your own work and standing
(05:59):
up for the piece of art thatyou have created and believe in,
and then not agreeing tocorrect your spelling mistakes,
or not listening when an editor saysthat there is a giant plot hole in the
middle. So there is a balancethere. But, given this question,
no - you are not too emotionally invested.Second,
(06:19):
and I think this is goingto resonate for a lot of us,
but Edward talking aboutbeing tired - really
tired - spoke to me.
I understand what you mean when yousay that you are tired within your
work.
I've been working on season two of GirlIn Space for actual years at this point,
(06:41):
and I love it and I ammaking progress on it,
and I am learning a lot alongthe way, but... oh my gosh,
sometimes when I open up that file,
I get this deep sense ofweariness and exhaustion.
I also understand beingtired within the process.
You've sent this to so manyeditors, agents, et cetera.
(07:04):
You've submitted it. You've pouredhope and emotional energy into this.
You've given it so much, andit just continues not to land.
I understand how that is exhausting.I also want
to acknowledge that we areliving in a very exhausting time
right now - a constant barrage of news and
(07:28):
politics and bad thingshappening, getting sick,
caring for sick loved ones,
doing more and more work for whatfeels like less and less pay,
fighting so hard every day just to realizethat tomorrow you're going to have to
wake up and fight all over again.
And then you combine all of that witha culture that glorifies the hustle and
(07:53):
sneers at people who justwant a break. I understand,
and I think a lot of the people listeningright now will understand that as
well.So your question,
is it giving up or lazy to justself-publish it now and move on?
Should I be true to my originalvision and persevere? First of all,
(08:13):
self-publishing is not lazy,
and it is not giving up.
Self-publishing takes a lotof work in its own right,
and just as much commitment.
It's a very entrepreneurialapproach to getting your work
published,
and it's taking control and responsibilityfor a lot of the things that in
(08:35):
a traditionally published situationsomeone else might deal with.
So I'm not going to say that one wayis more difficult, one way is easier,
one way is less stressful, et cetera,
because everybody's experience isgoing to be unique. I think a more
important question to askyourself at this point is:
what does it mean to you to betraditionally published versus
(08:58):
self-published?
If you have your heart set onbeing traditionally published,
and the idea of self-publishingfeels like giving up or being lazy
to you, I'd really encourageyou to ask yourself:
what's at stake here for youin choosing one or the other?
It sounds like - and I know thisis true for a lot of writers -
(09:22):
it sounds to me like being traditionallypublished is a means of validation
for you as a writer, andthat's not a bad thing.
Being published by a publishingcompany means that somebody else
believes in your work. Itmeans they vetted your work.
It gives it a little bit of atrust signal when people see, oh,
this is published by a big publisher.So you have to ask yourself:
(09:45):
would you be okayself-publishing your work,
and what would that mean to you?
What would that meanin your eyes about you,
about your work? This isn't somethingI can answer for you. Obviously,
this is an important elementthat really contributes to
whether you see your career/ your work as a writer as
(10:09):
being successful and fulfilling.
What matters to you in this process?And there's no right answer and no wrong
answer.
There's no "morally correct" wayto publish your work or to get your
work published. I mean, okay, if youlie and cheat and steal to do it,
that is morally bad, so don't do that.
(10:31):
But the method of publicationitself is morally neutral,
so whether self-publishedor traditionally published,
I encourage you to maybe do somejournaling or introspective thought or
talk with a friend aboutwhat's going on here,
and what you're feeling and why.I also really understand and
(10:52):
connect with the idea that, "Oh,
it's always been my dream tobe published by a publisher.
It's always been my dream tobe traditionally published.
It's always been my dream to walk intoa bookstore and see my book on the
shelf to feel validated andsuccessful." That was my dream,
too. Growing up - I grewup in love with books,
(11:15):
and all I ever wantedto do was be an author.
And when I was growing up,
self-publishing wasn't really an option.
There was vanity publishing,
where you paid a lot of money to haveyour book published and marketed,
but self-publishing as it istoday hadn't really been...
I don't want to say "invented" yet,
(11:35):
but it didn't really exist yetin the way it does now with the
dawn of the internet. I grew up inthe '80s and then the '90s and 2000s,
and sometime around afterI graduated from college,
I started hearing about people whowere self-publishing their own books,
and I was like, "Oh, what, is that legit?
(11:57):
Am I allowed to do that?" And thenI started seeing people who had
self-published their books making alot of money and getting book deals,
et cetera.
A lot of really popular and well-knownbooks have started off or even still
exist as self-published works,
for a number of different reasons. I'mgoing to keep using this as an example,
(12:17):
but when I started Girl In Space,
I published it as a podcast,so I published it myself.
I self-published it for free.
It's kind of the downside of podcasting,
is you make this thing andyou hope that maybe people
throw you a few dollars for it. But yeah,
(12:40):
I self-published it essentially,and it was pretty successful,
and I realized that Iliked the way that felt.
I liked being, for better or for worse,
in charge of every aspectof what I was creating.
I chose the music. I made sure thereweren't any copyright things going on.
(13:02):
I did all the writing. I chose theactors. I ran it past editors and friends,
of course, because everybody - nomatter how good of a writer you are,
everybody needs an editor.So if you do self-publish,
I encourage you to not just writeyour book and then submit it for
self-publishing; write your book and thenhave somebody else, pay somebody else,
(13:24):
barter with somebody else, to take alook at it and to make any changes,
to offer suggestions. Becausewhen it comes to our work,
I think we have both a veryexpansive and a very limited view of
what we create and what we are creating.
It makes your work better in the long run.But yeah,
I essentially self-publishedseason one of Girl In Space,
(13:47):
and I found that it was deeplysatisfying. I loved writing it.
I loved producing it. It feltgreat to see reviews coming in...
most of them. It was areally cool experience.
And I realize now that if I hadtried to pitch the project to
Audible or to another podcasting network,
(14:10):
if I had tried to pitch it and waitfor somebody to say, "Oh, okay, yes,
that sounds like a good idea,we'll help you with that"...
If I would've done that,
I would've never made Girl In Space.And this is just me.
I'm not saying this is prescriptive,or this is anybody else's experience,
but if I would've had to wait,
if I had been given a chanceto second guess myself,
(14:33):
I wouldn't have published atall. I would've written a pitch,
I would've created a pitch deck,I would've sent it out and waited,
and most likely I would'vereceived a big "No". And it's
interesting now that I'm in aposition where I have talked to
publishers about writing a book -Girl In Space-related or otherwise.
(14:55):
It seems less glamorous.It seems constricting.
It seems like compromising and givingaway a lot of the control that I
enjoy having over my work - youknow, as a raging narcissist.
I'm going to create a second audiofiction series and I'm going to do it
by myself again. I don't want to pitch,
(15:18):
I don't want to write a prospectus orwhatever it is that you would write.
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to have to convince somebodyelse that my work is worth creating
when I can create it myself andfind joy and fulfillment in it. I
realize I may have tipped my hand,
(15:39):
but I want to say self-publishingisn't right for everyone.
Just like traditional publishingisn't right for everyone.
Which is why I'm sharingmy experience with you.
I also realize I could have had a lotmore money and reach for my show if
I'd published through a network.
There are definitely prosand cons to either side,
(16:00):
but if it comes down to whether ornot your work will ever see the light
of day, I would encourage you todo what you can to make it happen.
I would encourage you to self-publish.Like I said,
I've been in some talkswith some publishers about
books and novels and such,
and it all seems so exhausting.
(16:25):
It all seems like I have to wait atvarious stages in the process for
permission from variouslevels and various people.
And I'm really impatient.
I want to write my stuff andpublish it and move on and
write more stuff and publish it. Now,
I say this because I have realizedthroughout this process that what is
(16:49):
important to me as acreator is making stuff.
I don't care if a lot of peopledon't read or listen to it.
I don't care whether itis vetted or validated by
professionals. Again,
I realize that this is a veryegocentric way of thinking,
but I've realized what mattersto me. I like to write,
(17:12):
I like to publish my stuff,and I like to keep going.
I don't have time to query agents.
I don't have the energy to begsomeone to produce my work,
because - I'm not saying that that'swhat traditional publishing is;
I feel like in my situation,it would feel like begging.
I just don't have time for that.I don't have the energy for that.
(17:33):
I don't have the energy toconvince someone else that my work is worth something
when I can just publish it and letthe work speak for itself. Now,
the other side of this is, if youactually want to make a living,
if you want to be an"author with a capital A",
if you want to be traditionally published,
if that is your dream and youwant to stick with it, then yeah,
(17:56):
there are a ton of benefits tobeing traditionally published.
However - and I'm going to say this inhopes that you take it with a very large
grain of salt; I'm not inthe publishing industry.
I only know what I have seen fromthe outside. I'm not on BookTok.
I'm not employed by a publisher.
(18:17):
I am a weird little independentcreator making weird little independent
things.I was listening recently to,
I want to say it was episode threeof The Talking Scared Podcast,
which is a podcast thatinterviews horror writers,
because I'm really into horror right now.
This is my horror phase.And Neil McRobert,
(18:38):
the host of Talking Scared,
did a fantastic interviewwith Sylvia Moreno Garcia,
who wrote Mexican Gothicand a number of other works,
about what's going on inthe publishing industry.
And I would definitely encourageyou to listen to that episode.
I'll try to remember, if my memory works,
to put a link to it in the descriptionfor today's episode. But in it,
(19:01):
they talk about so manythings, including the, quote,
"death of the mid-list author" -the idea of that being publishers
want to be guaranteed a big hit.
They want a debut author who they canblow up into the scene and see a lot of
success from,
or they want somebody who they knowwill deliver - along with delivering the
(19:24):
work, also deliver them a huge profit.The publishing business is a
business,
and I think that a lot of what is goingon there right now is similar to what
we're seeing with movies. Thisis not something I've researched;
this is just me talkingoff the top of my head,
so please do not quote thisor cite it as a source.
(19:45):
But just from what I've seenpersonally with all of the
reboots and sequels,
Hollywood is scared right now ofhaving something that will not
guarantee money and profit. Theydon't want to take a chance.
They don't want to invest in somethingthat's a little too weird for the
mainstream.
(20:06):
That's why we're seeing so manyGhostbuster sequels that nobody asked for.
That's why we're seeing Gladiator2, which nobody asked for.
That's why we're seeing so many brandnames like Barbie and Transformers.
Studios don't want to risknot making tons of money. And
- again, I don't haveany data to back this up,
(20:27):
just what I've seen - it wouldappear to me that book publishing is
going the same way. Now,this is not a guarantee.
This is not a blanket statement thatall traditional publishers are bad,
that movie studios are bad, anythinglike that. This is not a moral judgment.
This is just something I have observed.
(20:48):
And I'm someone who cares aboutseeing originality in art,
and I care about seeing creators dosomething new that isn't necessarily
guaranteed to succeed,and, more importantly,
that isn't necessarily guaranteedto make a CEO a ton of money.
I'm not creating art, I'm not writingto line someone else's pockets.
(21:11):
I'm writing because it bringsme joy and fulfillment to write.
So I skip over the whole publishingthing. I write, I self-publish,
I market it the best I can,and I keep making stuff. ...
I like that I startedthis episode like, "Oh,
both traditional and self-publishing arevery valid," and now I'm like, "Nope."
(21:36):
It's not that one is bad andone is good. It's just that,
somewhere along the way, Ibecame very disillusioned.
And while I don't everwant to be seen as cynical,
I want to be honest aboutwhat's going on and why.
When a publisher takes on yourwork, they're not saying, "Hmm,
is this going to be the nextwork of literary genius?
(21:59):
Is this a really good story thatpeople will love?" No. They're saying,
"Will this make me money?" Publishingis a business, not a charity,
and it's a cutthroat business at that.Now,
one other thing that I've heard from sometraditionally published authors that I
know personally - so again, thisis not all traditional authors,
(22:20):
and anyone who has had adifferent or better experience,
please do let me know.
I am not here to give justone side of the story.
This is the side that I know and Iwould love to hear and respond to anyone
else who has seen something differenthappening in the space. But I know
that initially, and when I sayinitially, I mean back in the day,
(22:44):
so back in the '80s and '90s,when you signed a book deal,
you were getting a lot of thingsalong with that book deal.
So you were getting not onlythe advance to write your
book and the notion that it would bepublished and it would see the light of
day;
you were also getting marketinghelp when a traditional publisher
(23:06):
published your book.
That was how you became known.Nowadays - and I know I sound like a
stodgy old person saying this, but maybeI should just embrace it - nowadays,
I feel like it's almostthe other way around.
I feel like you have to build asuccessful brand on social media
first before you can get published.
(23:28):
And once you do get published,
I think there is a burden on a lot oftraditionally published authors to market
their own work.Again,
please do correct me if I amwrong, if I am missing the mark.
Again,
this is all just things that I've heardfrom friends who have been through
traditional publishing.So is self-publishing giving up?
(23:50):
Is self-publishing lazy? No.
There is a ton of work that you'llneed to do regardless of whether you're
traditionally or self-published,
but that decision of how to publish yourwork or how to get your work published
depends on a lot of factors,
and it depends on understandingwhat matters to you as a
(24:13):
writer. And again,
there is no objectively correct answer.
Different methods workfor different people,
and I'm not here to tell you thatone is right or wrong for you.
But I do encourage you to talk to otherwriters and get a beat on what's going
on in both self-publishingand traditional publishing,
(24:35):
and take what I've said todaywith a very large grain of salt,
because I am clearly very biased.Edward,
whatever you end up choosing,let us know how it goes.
I am very curious to see how yourjourney goes and where it takes you.
For anyone else who would liketo chime in with their story,
I would be very interested inhearing about your experience in
(24:58):
self-publishing andtraditional publishing,
and your thoughts on whereboth industries are going.
You can scroll to the bottom of theshow notes for this episode - again,
this is episode 162 - andlet me know in the comments:
what do you think?
You can get to that place either byfollowing the link in the show notes for
this episode or by going outto sarah werner dot com - hat's
(25:21):
S-A-R-A-H-W-E-R-N-E-R dot com,
and looking for episode 162.
I also know that earlier I mentioneda Write Now podcast Discord;
I will also put a link to that inthe show notes for today's episode.
It's free,
though I do have a special privatechannel for Patreon members.
(25:43):
And hey, speaking of Patreon members,
if you would like to donateto this show - again,
because I don't charge for it and Idon't have ads - if you would like to
contribute a dollar per episode,$2 per episode, what have you,
to the Write Now podcast,you can do that via Patreon.
There will be a link to support theshow financially in the show notes for
(26:04):
today's episode, which is going to bevery apparently link-heavy, but we'll see.
You can also go out to patreon dot comand look for the Write Now podcast or
Sarah Rhea Werner, which Ithink it might be under...
I should know these things.Special thanks go out to patrons
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(26:26):
Kim, Mike Tefft, Poppy Brown,Summer, Tiffany Joyner,
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Thank you all so much for your generouscontributions to the show. If you are
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One of the best things you can do thatdoesn't cost any money is just by telling
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(26:48):
et cetera - telling someone elseabout the Write Now Podcast.
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Show them how to subscribe to Write Nowwith Sarah Werner - and that would be
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this has been episode 162of the Write Now Podcast,
(27:11):
the podcast that helps allwriters - aspiring, professional,
and otherwise - to find the time, energy,
and courage you need topursue your passion and write.
I'm Sarah Werner, and I believethat indie creators are the future.
This is the Write Now Podcastwith Sarah Werner, episode 162:
Should I Self-Publish?
(00:27):
Welcome to Write Now, the podcastthat helps all writers - aspiring,
professional, and otherwise- to find the time, energy,
and courage you need topursue your passion and write.
I'm your host, Sarah Werner,
and today we're going to betalking about self-publishing and
traditional publishing.When I talk about traditional
(00:49):
publishing,
I'm talking about going through apublisher - so getting an agent,
submitting your manuscript,
and going with an existing publisher whowill then publish and distribute your
book. When I talk about self-publishing,
I'm talking about doing it yourself.
I want to be very, incredibly,
(01:10):
super clear right from the startthat I'm not going to tell you which
publishing method isright for you. In fact,
if you go through thebacklog of this podcast,
this is actually a topicthat I've largely avoided.
That's because there are justso many factors surrounding your
decision,
(01:30):
whether you would like to publish yourwork through a traditional publisher or
by yourself,
and I am not in any way certified orqualified to tell you which one is better
or right for you.Now,
I'm talking about this today becauseI received a question from a listener
over in the Write Now podcastDiscord that summed up,
(01:52):
I think really well,
some of the current frustrations that alot of you might be going through with
your creative work at this time.
It is a very weird time to be an author
and to be publishing orto be trying to become
published. I don't know if thatgrammatically made sense, but here we are.
(02:14):
And again,
there are so many people whoare better qualified than I
am to go into the ins and outs ofwhere the traditional publishing
industry is today,
but I want to speak to some ofthe life decisions and some of the
feelings that you might be going throughas you wrestle with this decision.
(02:36):
So - here's the question I receivedfrom podcast listener Edward.
Edward says, "Hi. I could use someencouraging and thoughtful feedback.
I finished writing a novel that I'mprobably a little too emotionally invested
in, and I've been working on it andrefining it for about nine years.
In that time period, I'vesubmitted it to 74 agents.
(02:59):
I've had a couple full manuscriptrequests, but mostly rejections.
I told myself that I should try toget at least a hundred submissions,
then consider self-publishing.
I'd really like to see it outthere just for my own satisfaction,
but I understand that it could be a wholelot better if I had the collaborative
magic that comes from going viatraditional publishing editors, agents,
(03:23):
et cetera.
But I'm tired - really tired.
Is it giving up or lazy to justself-publish it now and move on?
Should I be true to myoriginal goal and persevere,
or should I embrace the freedomand enjoyment that could come from
self-publishing it my own way? Ishould add, I'm a graphic designer,
(03:45):
so I will have no problem makingmy novel look professional.
I've gone back and forth and Ijust can't decide." So again,
that was a question submittedby podcast listener Edward,
but I think that it mightresonate with some /
many / all of you.I want to start with Edward's concern that
(04:08):
he is quote too emotionallyinvested in his work:
I have good news for you.
You are not too emotionallyinvested in your work.
You created this book - andto everyone else listening,
whatever it is you're working on,you're creating this. You created this.
It's part of you.
(04:28):
You've put your heart and yoursoul into this piece of work.
It's yours, and more than that, it's you.
It's a representation of you in the world.When you
publish something, peopleattach what you've published,
what you've outright declared,as part of who you are.
(04:48):
I've had people who listen to GirlIn Space, my audio fiction podcast,
who feel like they know me becausethey've listened to my work.
And similarly, Girl In Spaceis a deeply personal project.
I wrote that originally tocome to terms with a lot of
things that were going on in mylife at the time - relationships,
(05:12):
work circumstances,
looking for a new way to live and thrive.
I put myself on the page, and Ithink that you probably do, too.
You created something. You'reproud of it, and it's yours.
I don't think you are tooemotionally invested in it.
I think that being emotionallyinvested in your work is healthy. Now,
(05:35):
if you get to the point where you areprecious with your work - and by that I
mean, someone agrees to publish it,
but they want you to make a few changesand you just dig in your heels and you
say no - then you're kind of getting into
a little too-attached territory.
I think there's a balance between knowingand loving your own work and standing
(05:59):
up for the piece of art thatyou have created and believe in,
and then not agreeing tocorrect your spelling mistakes,
or not listening when an editor saysthat there is a giant plot hole in the
middle. So there is a balancethere. But, given this question,
no - you are not too emotionally invested.Second,
(06:19):
and I think this is goingto resonate for a lot of us,
but Edward talking aboutbeing tired - really
tired - spoke to me.
I understand what you mean when yousay that you are tired within your
work.
I've been working on season two of GirlIn Space for actual years at this point,
(06:41):
and I love it and I ammaking progress on it,
and I am learning a lot alongthe way, but... oh my gosh,
sometimes when I open up that file,
I get this deep sense ofweariness and exhaustion.
I also understand beingtired within the process.
You've sent this to so manyeditors, agents, et cetera.
(07:04):
You've submitted it. You've pouredhope and emotional energy into this.
You've given it so much, andit just continues not to land.
I understand how that is exhausting.I also want
to acknowledge that we areliving in a very exhausting time
right now - a constant barrage of news and
(07:28):
politics and bad thingshappening, getting sick,
caring for sick loved ones,
doing more and more work for whatfeels like less and less pay,
fighting so hard every day just to realizethat tomorrow you're going to have to
wake up and fight all over again.
And then you combine all of that witha culture that glorifies the hustle and
(07:53):
sneers at people who justwant a break. I understand,
and I think a lot of the people listeningright now will understand that as
well.So your question,
is it giving up or lazy to justself-publish it now and move on?
Should I be true to my originalvision and persevere? First of all,
(08:13):
self-publishing is not lazy,
and it is not giving up.
Self-publishing takes a lotof work in its own right,
and just as much commitment.
It's a very entrepreneurialapproach to getting your work
published,
and it's taking control and responsibilityfor a lot of the things that in
(08:35):
a traditionally published situationsomeone else might deal with.
So I'm not going to say that one wayis more difficult, one way is easier,
one way is less stressful, et cetera,
because everybody's experience isgoing to be unique. I think a more
important question to askyourself at this point is:
what does it mean to you to betraditionally published versus
(08:58):
self-published?
If you have your heart set onbeing traditionally published,
and the idea of self-publishingfeels like giving up or being lazy
to you, I'd really encourageyou to ask yourself:
what's at stake here for youin choosing one or the other?
It sounds like - and I know thisis true for a lot of writers -
(09:22):
it sounds to me like being traditionallypublished is a means of validation
for you as a writer, andthat's not a bad thing.
Being published by a publishingcompany means that somebody else
believes in your work. Itmeans they vetted your work.
It gives it a little bit of atrust signal when people see, oh,
this is published by a big publisher.So you have to ask yourself:
(09:45):
would you be okayself-publishing your work,
and what would that mean to you?
What would that meanin your eyes about you,
about your work? This isn't somethingI can answer for you. Obviously,
this is an important elementthat really contributes to
whether you see your career/ your work as a writer as
(10:09):
being successful and fulfilling.
What matters to you in this process?And there's no right answer and no wrong
answer.
There's no "morally correct" wayto publish your work or to get your
work published. I mean, okay, if youlie and cheat and steal to do it,
that is morally bad, so don't do that.
(10:31):
But the method of publicationitself is morally neutral,
so whether self-publishedor traditionally published,
I encourage you to maybe do somejournaling or introspective thought or
talk with a friend aboutwhat's going on here,
and what you're feeling and why.I also really understand and
(10:52):
connect with the idea that, "Oh,
it's always been my dream tobe published by a publisher.
It's always been my dream tobe traditionally published.
It's always been my dream to walk intoa bookstore and see my book on the
shelf to feel validated andsuccessful." That was my dream,
too. Growing up - I grewup in love with books,
(11:15):
and all I ever wantedto do was be an author.
And when I was growing up,
self-publishing wasn't really an option.
There was vanity publishing,
where you paid a lot of money to haveyour book published and marketed,
but self-publishing as it istoday hadn't really been...
I don't want to say "invented" yet,
(11:35):
but it didn't really exist yetin the way it does now with the
dawn of the internet. I grew up inthe '80s and then the '90s and 2000s,
and sometime around afterI graduated from college,
I started hearing about people whowere self-publishing their own books,
and I was like, "Oh, what, is that legit?
(11:57):
Am I allowed to do that?" And thenI started seeing people who had
self-published their books making alot of money and getting book deals,
et cetera.
A lot of really popular and well-knownbooks have started off or even still
exist as self-published works,
for a number of different reasons. I'mgoing to keep using this as an example,
(12:17):
but when I started Girl In Space,
I published it as a podcast,so I published it myself.
I self-published it for free.
It's kind of the downside of podcasting,
is you make this thing andyou hope that maybe people
throw you a few dollars for it. But yeah,
(12:40):
I self-published it essentially,and it was pretty successful,
and I realized that Iliked the way that felt.
I liked being, for better or for worse,
in charge of every aspectof what I was creating.
I chose the music. I made sure thereweren't any copyright things going on.
(13:02):
I did all the writing. I chose theactors. I ran it past editors and friends,
of course, because everybody - nomatter how good of a writer you are,
everybody needs an editor.So if you do self-publish,
I encourage you to not just writeyour book and then submit it for
self-publishing; write your book and thenhave somebody else, pay somebody else,
(13:24):
barter with somebody else, to take alook at it and to make any changes,
to offer suggestions. Becausewhen it comes to our work,
I think we have both a veryexpansive and a very limited view of
what we create and what we are creating.
It makes your work better in the long run.But yeah,
I essentially self-publishedseason one of Girl In Space,
(13:47):
and I found that it was deeplysatisfying. I loved writing it.
I loved producing it. It feltgreat to see reviews coming in...
most of them. It was areally cool experience.
And I realize now that if I hadtried to pitch the project to
Audible or to another podcasting network,
(14:10):
if I had tried to pitch it and waitfor somebody to say, "Oh, okay, yes,
that sounds like a good idea,we'll help you with that"...
If I would've done that,
I would've never made Girl In Space.And this is just me.
I'm not saying this is prescriptive,or this is anybody else's experience,
but if I would've had to wait,
if I had been given a chanceto second guess myself,
(14:33):
I wouldn't have published atall. I would've written a pitch,
I would've created a pitch deck,I would've sent it out and waited,
and most likely I would'vereceived a big "No". And it's
interesting now that I'm in aposition where I have talked to
publishers about writing a book -Girl In Space-related or otherwise.
(14:55):
It seems less glamorous.It seems constricting.
It seems like compromising and givingaway a lot of the control that I
enjoy having over my work - youknow, as a raging narcissist.
I'm going to create a second audiofiction series and I'm going to do it
by myself again. I don't want to pitch,
(15:18):
I don't want to write a prospectus orwhatever it is that you would write.
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to have to convince somebodyelse that my work is worth creating
when I can create it myself andfind joy and fulfillment in it. I
realize I may have tipped my hand,
(15:39):
but I want to say self-publishingisn't right for everyone.
Just like traditional publishingisn't right for everyone.
Which is why I'm sharingmy experience with you.
I also realize I could have had a lotmore money and reach for my show if
I'd published through a network.
There are definitely prosand cons to either side,
(16:00):
but if it comes down to whether ornot your work will ever see the light
of day, I would encourage you todo what you can to make it happen.
I would encourage you to self-publish.Like I said,
I've been in some talkswith some publishers about
books and novels and such,
and it all seems so exhausting.
(16:25):
It all seems like I have to wait atvarious stages in the process for
permission from variouslevels and various people.
And I'm really impatient.
I want to write my stuff andpublish it and move on and
write more stuff and publish it. Now,
I say this because I have realizedthroughout this process that what is
(16:49):
important to me as acreator is making stuff.
I don't care if a lot of peopledon't read or listen to it.
I don't care whether itis vetted or validated by
professionals. Again,
I realize that this is a veryegocentric way of thinking,
but I've realized what mattersto me. I like to write,
(17:12):
I like to publish my stuff,and I like to keep going.
I don't have time to query agents.
I don't have the energy to begsomeone to produce my work,
because - I'm not saying that that'swhat traditional publishing is;
I feel like in my situation,it would feel like begging.
I just don't have time for that.I don't have the energy for that.
(17:33):
I don't have the energy toconvince someone else that my work is worth something
when I can just publish it and letthe work speak for itself. Now,
the other side of this is, if youactually want to make a living,
if you want to be an"author with a capital A",
if you want to be traditionally published,
if that is your dream and youwant to stick with it, then yeah,
(17:56):
there are a ton of benefits tobeing traditionally published.
However - and I'm going to say this inhopes that you take it with a very large
grain of salt; I'm not inthe publishing industry.
I only know what I have seen fromthe outside. I'm not on BookTok.
I'm not employed by a publisher.
(18:17):
I am a weird little independentcreator making weird little independent
things.I was listening recently to,
I want to say it was episode threeof The Talking Scared Podcast,
which is a podcast thatinterviews horror writers,
because I'm really into horror right now.
This is my horror phase.And Neil McRobert,
(18:38):
the host of Talking Scared,
did a fantastic interviewwith Sylvia Moreno Garcia,
who wrote Mexican Gothicand a number of other works,
about what's going on inthe publishing industry.
And I would definitely encourageyou to listen to that episode.
I'll try to remember, if my memory works,
to put a link to it in the descriptionfor today's episode. But in it,
(19:01):
they talk about so manythings, including the, quote,
"death of the mid-list author" -the idea of that being publishers
want to be guaranteed a big hit.
They want a debut author who they canblow up into the scene and see a lot of
success from,
or they want somebody who they knowwill deliver - along with delivering the
(19:24):
work, also deliver them a huge profit.The publishing business is a
business,
and I think that a lot of what is goingon there right now is similar to what
we're seeing with movies. Thisis not something I've researched;
this is just me talkingoff the top of my head,
so please do not quote thisor cite it as a source.
(19:45):
But just from what I've seenpersonally with all of the
reboots and sequels,
Hollywood is scared right now ofhaving something that will not
guarantee money and profit. Theydon't want to take a chance.
They don't want to invest in somethingthat's a little too weird for the
mainstream.
(20:06):
That's why we're seeing so manyGhostbuster sequels that nobody asked for.
That's why we're seeing Gladiator2, which nobody asked for.
That's why we're seeing so many brandnames like Barbie and Transformers.
Studios don't want to risknot making tons of money. And
- again, I don't haveany data to back this up,
(20:27):
just what I've seen - it wouldappear to me that book publishing is
going the same way. Now,this is not a guarantee.
This is not a blanket statement thatall traditional publishers are bad,
that movie studios are bad, anythinglike that. This is not a moral judgment.
This is just something I have observed.
(20:48):
And I'm someone who cares aboutseeing originality in art,
and I care about seeing creators dosomething new that isn't necessarily
guaranteed to succeed,and, more importantly,
that isn't necessarily guaranteedto make a CEO a ton of money.
I'm not creating art, I'm not writingto line someone else's pockets.
(21:11):
I'm writing because it bringsme joy and fulfillment to write.
So I skip over the whole publishingthing. I write, I self-publish,
I market it the best I can,and I keep making stuff. ...
I like that I startedthis episode like, "Oh,
both traditional and self-publishing arevery valid," and now I'm like, "Nope."
(21:36):
It's not that one is bad andone is good. It's just that,
somewhere along the way, Ibecame very disillusioned.
And while I don't everwant to be seen as cynical,
I want to be honest aboutwhat's going on and why.
When a publisher takes on yourwork, they're not saying, "Hmm,
is this going to be the nextwork of literary genius?
(21:59):
Is this a really good story thatpeople will love?" No. They're saying,
"Will this make me money?" Publishingis a business, not a charity,
and it's a cutthroat business at that.Now,
one other thing that I've heard from sometraditionally published authors that I
know personally - so again, thisis not all traditional authors,
(22:20):
and anyone who has had adifferent or better experience,
please do let me know.
I am not here to give justone side of the story.
This is the side that I know and Iwould love to hear and respond to anyone
else who has seen something differenthappening in the space. But I know
that initially, and when I sayinitially, I mean back in the day,
(22:44):
so back in the '80s and '90s,when you signed a book deal,
you were getting a lot of thingsalong with that book deal.
So you were getting not onlythe advance to write your
book and the notion that it would bepublished and it would see the light of
day;
you were also getting marketinghelp when a traditional publisher
(23:06):
published your book.
That was how you became known.Nowadays - and I know I sound like a
stodgy old person saying this, but maybeI should just embrace it - nowadays,
I feel like it's almostthe other way around.
I feel like you have to build asuccessful brand on social media
first before you can get published.
(23:28):
And once you do get published,
I think there is a burden on a lot oftraditionally published authors to market
their own work.Again,
please do correct me if I amwrong, if I am missing the mark.
Again,
this is all just things that I've heardfrom friends who have been through
traditional publishing.So is self-publishing giving up?
(23:50):
Is self-publishing lazy? No.
There is a ton of work that you'llneed to do regardless of whether you're
traditionally or self-published,
but that decision of how to publish yourwork or how to get your work published
depends on a lot of factors,
and it depends on understandingwhat matters to you as a
(24:13):
writer. And again,
there is no objectively correct answer.
Different methods workfor different people,
and I'm not here to tell you thatone is right or wrong for you.
But I do encourage you to talk to otherwriters and get a beat on what's going
on in both self-publishingand traditional publishing,
(24:35):
and take what I've said todaywith a very large grain of salt,
because I am clearly very biased.Edward,
whatever you end up choosing,let us know how it goes.
I am very curious to see how yourjourney goes and where it takes you.
For anyone else who would liketo chime in with their story,
I would be very interested inhearing about your experience in
(24:58):
self-publishing andtraditional publishing,
and your thoughts on whereboth industries are going.
You can scroll to the bottom of theshow notes for this episode - again,
this is episode 162 - andlet me know in the comments:
what do you think?
You can get to that place either byfollowing the link in the show notes for
this episode or by going outto sarah werner dot com - hat's
(25:21):
S-A-R-A-H-W-E-R-N-E-R dot com,
and looking for episode 162.
I also know that earlier I mentioneda Write Now podcast Discord;
I will also put a link to that inthe show notes for today's episode.
It's free,
though I do have a special privatechannel for Patreon members.
(25:43):
And hey, speaking of Patreon members,
if you would like to donateto this show - again,
because I don't charge for it and Idon't have ads - if you would like to
contribute a dollar per episode,$2 per episode, what have you,
to the Write Now podcast,you can do that via Patreon.
There will be a link to support theshow financially in the show notes for
(26:04):
today's episode, which is going to bevery apparently link-heavy, but we'll see.
You can also go out to patreon dot comand look for the Write Now podcast or
Sarah Rhea Werner, which Ithink it might be under...
I should know these things.Special thanks go out to patrons
Laurie, Regina Calabrese, AmberFratesi, Charmaine Ferreira,
(26:26):
Kim, Mike Tefft, Poppy Brown,Summer, Tiffany Joyner,
and Whitney MacGruder.
Thank you all so much for your generouscontributions to the show. If you are
not incredibly financiallysolvent right now, I understand!
One of the best things you can do thatdoesn't cost any money is just by telling
a friend, family member, aspiring writer,
(26:48):
et cetera - telling someone elseabout the Write Now Podcast.
If they don't listen to podcasts,
show them how to downloadone and listen to it.
Show them how to subscribe to Write Nowwith Sarah Werner - and that would be
also a very beautiful thing,
and I would appreciate it very much.And with that,
this has been episode 162of the Write Now Podcast,
(27:11):
the podcast that helps allwriters - aspiring, professional,
and otherwise - to find the time, energy,
and courage you need topursue your passion and write.
I'm Sarah Werner, and I believethat indie creators are the future.
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