October 29, 2024 • 43 mins
Dr. Maeve Kane joins Kathryn Gehred to explore Konwatsi'tsiaienni Molly Brant’s life during the American Revolution. Brant was a member of the Wolf Clan of the Mohawk Nation, one of the Six Nations of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. Kane and Gerhred discuss Brant’s pivotal diplomatic efforts to maintain the Mohawk’s alliance with the British during the American War for Independence, and the turmoil Indigenous women like her faced during Sullivan’s Campaign in the late 1770s, as they read two letters from Brant to her step-son-in-law, Daniel Claus.
Kane is an Associate Professor of History and the Director of Graduate Studies at the University of Albany. She is the author of Shirts, Powdered Red: Haudenosaunee Gender, Trade, and Exchange (Cornell University Press, 2023).
Molly Brant to Daniel Claus, Carleton Island, 5 October 1779. Daniel Claus Papers, Library and Archives Canada. MG19 F1 vol2:135-136 https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_c1478
Sir Frederick Haldimand: Unpublished Papers and Correspondence. London: Microfilm Publications. 1977. Reel H-1450, Series B-114. MS 21774:180-181. Original at the British Library https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_h1450
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Unknown (00:00):
Music.
Kathryn Gehred (00:06):
Hello and welcome to Your Most Obedient &
Humble Servant. This is awomen's history podcast where we
feature 18th and early 19thcentury women's letters that
don't get as much attention aswe think they should. I'm your
host. Kathryn Gehred. Today I amthrilled to welcome Dr. Maeve
Kane to the podcast. Maeve is anAssociate Professor and the
Director of Graduate Studies forthe History Department at the
(00:27):
University of Albany. Her bookShirts Powdered Red:
Haudenosaunee Gender, Trade, andExchange is about what we can
learn about Haudenosaunee womenthrough their labor and consumer
choices over three centuries.Hello, Maeve.
Maeve Kane (00:41):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Kathryn Gehred (00:43):
Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm
really excited to talk to youbefore we get started about the
podcast. I want to talk a littlebit about your book.
Unknown (00:51):
Yeah, the elevator pitch for the book is, what can
you know about what Indigenouswomen thought, specifically
about issues of race, genderconversion, attempts at
assimilation from what they weremaking and wearing. A lot of
those questions historiansapproach from the writings of
Europeans and white settlers,mostly men, sometimes women, but
(01:14):
we don't have a lot of writtenarchival work by indigenous
women. There's oral historystuff that's really interesting,
and I tried to incorporate thatin the book, but mostly the book
asks if you approach thosequestions that historians have
more commonly answered witharchival material by white
Europeans and settlers, butinstead ask them of Indigenous
women and use clothing as a wayto get at that, what does that
(01:35):
say about what those peoplethought about the enormous
changes of the 17th, 18th andearly 19th centuries.
Kathryn Gehred (01:42):
Well, that's super interesting. Who make up
the Haudenosaunee? Who are theHaudenosaunee?
Unknown (01:47):
The Haudenosaunee are six nations, independent,
distinct and separate. They arethe Mohawk, Oneida, Cayuga,
Onondaga, Seneca, and Tuscarorain the 18th century, and today,
in the 21st century, they occupytheir historic territories in
what's now the state of New Yorkand southern Canada.
Kathryn Gehred (02:05):
How would you describe Haudenosaunee women in
the 18th century and therelationship to material
culture?
Unknown (02:10):
One of the things that I find really interesting about
this period, and about howHaudenosaunee people, how
Haudenosaunee women were kind ofpositioning themselves, is that
in a lot of cases, Haudenosauneewomen were buying many of the
same items that white women andfamilies were often from the
same traders. Some of thematerials that I work with are
(02:30):
count books from traders. Theseare basically like itemized
credit card receipts, where it'slisting exactly what people were
buying and sometimes what theywere going to use it for. And
some of these traders, these arewhite, European descent traders.
They're selling to both whitefamilies and Haudenosaunee
families, same exact fabric,same exact clothing. And yet you
(02:51):
can tell in both what they'rebuying alongside those things
and then how they use it later,that they're using it in
completely different kinds ofclothing. So like white families
will buy buttons. They'll buykind of interfacing type
material for very structured,tailored kind of coats and
things like that. And that's notwhat Haudenosaunee families are
(03:12):
buying, no buttons, none of thestiff kind of tailoring
materials. They're buyingmaterials that are more or less
in line with pre contact formsof dress. So they'll buy the
same kind of woolens that whitefamilies were wearing, but
they'll buy it for a blanketthat's to be wrapped around and
decorated with silk ribbonsthat's similar in form to like a
beaver fur coat, but it's notthe same kind of like
(03:34):
structured, tailored coats thatEuropeans are wearing same thing
with, like women's skirts, bothwhite women and Haudenosaunee
women wore skirts. White womentended to go down to about their
ankles, and Haudenosauneewomen's were a less full around
the waist and B, about kneelength, because they're doing
different kinds of agriculturaland household work, same
materials, same sources, butradically different use cases
(03:57):
because of kind of the genderedlabor roles and the distinct
cultural identity of those twogroups.
Kathryn Gehred (04:03):
That's so fascinating. And I think it sort
of goes against the way thatmovies portray indigenous people
at this time, the sort ofimagined what an indigenous
person would look like in stufflike Dances with Wolves and
things like that. You don't seesomebody wearing paisley, but
maybe there was somesimilarities there, but in a
unique way.
Unknown (04:23):
Yeah, looking towards the American Revolution, one of
the things that I think broughttogether these communities,
especially like the Mohawk andthe Oneida, whose lands were
increasingly encroached on bywhite settlers. These families
are living side by side in thelate 18th century. They know
what each other look like. Theyknow what each other are buying.
So it's a really consciouschoice to, like, not do those
(04:43):
things. Europeans settlers inthis area were really hopeful
that Haudenosaunee peoplebuying, just like, absolutely
enormous amounts of cloth. Andthey were really buying huge
amounts of cloth and clothing.Settlers took this as like, Oh,
these Haudenosaunee people willbe converted to Christian.
Vanity really easily. From thesettler side, it seemed like
they were starting to assimilateto like European modes of dress.
(05:06):
Wearing white shirts and buyinga lot of woolens was taken as a
hopeful sign for cushioningconversion. But Haudenosaunee
people were not interested inthat. They were very selective
in what they bought and whatthey wore, and you can see that
at these very deliberatechoices, that they're aware of,
what white settlers werewearing, aware of what was
available, and they made choicesthat were very distinctly
Haudenosaunee in that context.
Kathryn Gehred (05:28):
And that makes perfect sense. It's just a new
type of fabric that you can workinto the culture that you
already have. It doesn't meanthat you're like, Well, my
culture is bad now I'mcompletely moving into this new
one. Yeah, exactly. But can useit in the way that you want to.
How would you say that sort ofwomen's roles were different
between Indigenous andHaudenosaunee women and white
Unknown (05:47):
in some ways, they're very similar. Like Haudenosaunee
women?
and white women are bothresponsible for things like
child care, household likelaundry, buying cloth and
clothing, maintaining and makingcloth and clothing. There's a
lot of similarities in someways, in those gendered roles,
but there's a really differentroles when it comes to
agriculture, especiallyespecially more like working
(06:10):
class white women in thisperiod, where, you know, they
would do some agricultural workin like market gardens or
kitchen gardens, also some dairywork. Haudenosaunee women are
primarily responsible for, likelarge scale field, plow based
agriculture. Haudenosaunee womenare the ones that are primarily
responsible for large scaleagriculture, because the way
(06:30):
that agriculture works for theHaudenosaunee is, instead of an
individual piece of land beingheld and worked by an individual
farmer. For Haudenosauneecommunities, the land is kind of
cooperatively owned and managedby clan mothers, the eldest
woman in a clan or a familylineage, who would kind of
manage the work of her daughtersin that clan. And so they're
(06:53):
working a large piece of landcooperatively, and it's not
individually held by a singleperson. And that's the basis of
both Haudenosaunee culture.There's a lot of religious
rituals and ceremonies tied tothat, like cycles of the seasons
and everything, but also likemilitary and economic power,
what's now the state of NewYork, before there's irrigation
(07:15):
in the American Midwest in the19th century is the most
productive agricultural area inthe 13 colonies, or not in the
13 colonies, because it'sHaudenosaunee territory, but
it's like astoundinglyagriculturally productive, and
that's all Haudenosaunee women'swork, and it comes under
military attack in therevolution.
Kathryn Gehred (07:33):
And that's something that's sort of
directly oppositional to whitegender roles or farming seen as
sort of like a masculine rolefor what we're talking about,
specifically for this season ofyour most obedient and humble
servant. We're talking about theAmerican Revolution. What impact
did the American Revolution haveon the lives of Haudenosaunee
women?
Unknown (07:52):
The American Revolution, in older histories
of indigenous people, was oftenfigured as this like huge moment
of crisis, a big rupture withthe past, and like the moment
where colonialism becomesinevitable and national
sovereignty is forever destroyedfor indigenous nations. And I
(08:12):
think the newer scholarshipwould say, and this is also what
I argue in the book, that theAmerican Revolution is enormous
crisis point. It's a huge pointof eventual land loss after the
American Revolution. But I thinkthe newer scholarship would
argue, and I argue that it's nota point of inevitable decline,
(08:33):
that these nations stillcontinue to exist in the present
and their sovereignty isuninterrupted in the moment of
the American Revolution, thoughit's a huge disruption to
women's lives. I mean, it is forbasically all families in
eastern North America at thetime, but for Haudenosaunee
women, specifically, the SixNations of the Confederacy
declare their neutrality in theconflict in 1775 but over the
(08:57):
course of the next few years,after 1778 the Six Nations can
no longer remain neutral. That'snot really an option that's on
the table anymore. And you seethat in what happens in women's
lives, the Six Nations have topick sides. The Oneida and the
Tuscarora ally with theAmericans. The rest of the Six
Nations formerly ally with theBritish. And for women,
(09:19):
specifically, this means attackson their bodies, on their homes,
on their lands from varioussides, a large part of the
population after the AmericanRevolution is refugees and have
to resettle their ownterritories.
Kathryn Gehred (09:33):
Wow. From the indigenous perspective, the
American Revolution was justsort of one more conflict on top
of many other conflicts. Wasthis something that felt like it
was just a continuation of whatthey'd been living with? Or was
this even bigger?
Unknown (09:47):
There's this moment where a set of Haudenosaunee
diplomats say to PhilipSchuyler, who's making overtures
to the Oneida and other nationsto ally with the Americans
instead of the British. Andthese Haudenosaunee diplomats.
Say to Schuyler, this is aconflict between a father and
his children, and we want nopart of it. And like, that's
their argument for Haudenosauneeneutrality. They see this as a
(10:10):
conflict that they don't reallyhave part in. It's in large part
because they have this existingdiplomatic relationship with the
British specifically, and theythink it's very important to
honor that diplomaticrelationship. King George
Kathryn Gehred (10:21):
probably saw it sort of like that as well as
he's the father. There's thechildren. So what sort of things
were indigenous peopleconsidering when they were
deciding you talked about howthe Haudenosaunee took their
relationship with the Britishreally seriously. So this entire
idea of the American colonistsbeing separate from the British,
was that something that alreadykind of existed in their heads,
or did they sort of see theAmerican colonists who they were
(10:42):
dealing with as British people?
Unknown (10:44):
So the Haudenosaunee were definitely aware of ethnic
divisions between the Americansettlers. This was especially
the case and kind of a point ofconcern for the British military
during the French and Indian Wara generation prior, where the
Haudenosaunee were very aware oftensions between German settlers
in the Mohawk Valley Dutchancestry people at Albany and
(11:07):
then the British military thatthey did not get along. The
British military fear that theHaudenosaunee may have allied
with the French during theFrench and Indian War, and that
was a major concern because ofHaudenosaunee military power in
that conflict as well. And theywere concerned that, like if the
Mohawk and the Oneida or otherHaudenosaunee allied with the
French, that they would takealong with them the Mohawk
(11:28):
Valley Germans or the Dutch atAlbany and exploit some of those
kind of ethnic tensions. Andwhen it gets to the American
Revolution, I think that theHaudenosaunee were aware of the
American the people who becamethe Continentals, they were
aware of the impulse toseparate, but they still viewed
them as like they're all underone king, that this is a group
(11:50):
of people that, just asHaudenosaunee had their
diplomatic agreements andobligations that they'd made to
the British government, that sotoo did The American colonists,
and that the Haudenosauneebelieved that that conflict
would settle out because theBritish have been a presence on
the continent for more than acentury at that point, right.
Kathryn Gehred (12:10):
Interesting. Now, for the purposes of this
podcast, we like to get intovery specifics of one document,
and in this case, this is one ofthose unusual cases, sometimes
where we have a letter that'sactually from an indigenous
woman. So this is a letter fromthe anglicized version of her
name. Is Molly Brant, do youknow how to pronounce her name?
Unknown (12:30):
Yeah. I will preface this with my Mohawk. Students
tell me that my Mohawkpronunciation is very bad, so I
will pronounce it, but mypronunciation is not great.
Konwatsi'tsiaienni Molly Brant.
Kathryn Gehred (12:41):
From my perspective, my first
introduction to Molly Brant wasbecause I work for an
encyclopedia. We're writing anencyclopedia entry on Dunmore's
War. And in that I was lookingup Sir William Johnson, and I
went to the Oxford Dictionary ofNational Biography. And I will
say that this is theintroductory paragraph of this
encyclopedia entry about SirWilliam Johnson just makes him
(13:04):
sound so messy in his personallife.
Unknown (13:06):
He is! Its part of what I love about him. But, yeah,
he's real messy
Kathryn Gehred (13:12):
Because normally they try to be so dry in this
stuff, but it was just likethere was no way that they could
explain this and still be dry.So I'm just going to read a
brief bit. By 1743 he had movedto several thousand acres of his
own land near present day,Amsterdam, New York, where he
called his home fort Johnson.Since 1739 he had been living
with Catherine Weisenberg, aGerman servant who had run away
(13:33):
from her New York City master atthe age of 17. There's no record
of illegal marriage, but Johnsoncalled her his wife, and she was
buried with what those who laterexhumed his corpse assumed to be
her wedding ring engraved withthe date 16 June, 1739, the
couple had three children.Catherine died in April 1759,
perhaps even before that date,Johnson began a relationship
(13:54):
with his housekeeper, Mary MollyBrant, sister of the Mohawk
leader Joseph Brant, Johnsonacknowledged paternity of her
eight children, and in his will,which called her mother merely
his prudent and faithfulhousekeeper, promised each the
equivalent of a farmstead. So,okay, Sir William Johnson. Also
okay, encyclopedia entry writer,by just saying, sister of Mohawk
(14:15):
leader Joseph Brant.
Maeve Kane (14:17):
Do you want even more messiness on top of that?
Kathryn Gehred (14:19):
Oh, please, please.
Maeve Kane (14:20):
Catherine Weisenberg's mother seemed to
have been living at Johnson Hallafter Catherine Weisenberg's
death, while Molly Brant was hishousekeeper slash wife.
Kathryn Gehred (14:30):
Ah, very complicated.
Maeve Kane (14:32):
Yeah, it's a really interesting set of family
relationships.
Kathryn Gehred (14:35):
So I saw that, and I'm like, there's gotta be
more to this. This is like theencyclopedia, like dipping their
toe into these sort of personalrelationships. On your end,
personally, what's your opinionof Sir William Johnson?
Unknown (14:47):
I find him really interesting. I don't think I
would want to like go out todinner with him. He's so
interesting in the way that hepositions himself. He's like his
own greatest promoter. And Ithink that's a big part of his
success, financially,militarily, etc. He's his own
best booster, his own besthypeman. But like, as a person,
(15:11):
there does seem to have been, Ithink, a lot of affection
between both Johnson andWeisenberg and Johnson and
Brant. But like, yeah, I don'tthink I would want to like work
with the guy.
Kathryn Gehred (15:23):
Yeah. So I guess I sort of jumped in there pretty
deep. I do love to talk aboutmen starting with their personal
lives, because people do thatwith women a lot, and it's fun
to do it with men too. So he wasa colonial official, Sir William
Johnson. It seems like he wasalso very interested in making
money off of land acquisition,yeah, but he got this position
(15:43):
basically as, what was hisofficial title?
Unknown (15:46):
So he's eventually the Superintendent of British Indian
Affairs. He was born in Irelandand sent over by his uncle to
manage this parcel of land inthe Mohawk Valley. And he
eventually parlays that intotrade and relationships with the
Mohawk who are living there. Andhis uncle's not happy about
that, because he's spending moretime, like making money off of
the fur trade than he is onmanaging his uncle's land, or
(16:08):
spending more time speculatingon additional land than actually
managing his his uncle's land.And then he parlays that yet
further in the French and IndianWar into this baronetcy and
military position, and he's thehead guy of all diplomatic
negotiations between the Britishand all indigenous nations in
North America, which is a hugestep up. And I think his
(16:29):
relationship with Molly brandand her family was a huge part
of that.
Kathryn Gehred (16:31):
How much of that is him, and how much of that is
he just happened to have thispersonal relationship with a
mohawk woman, and he was able tosort of translate that into a
position?
Unknown (16:41):
Molly and Joseph were members of the Mohawk Wolf Clan.
Their father had been a reallyprominent diplomat. Their mother
was probably a Clan Mother andWilliam Johnson, before his
relationship with Molly Brant,had this long standing
diplomatic and traderelationship with their father,
that seems to have been how theymet. Some other historians of
Johnson might disagree with me.I don't think Johnson was all
(17:03):
that prominent before hisrelationship with that family. I
think that that was a real keyto his success, like a huge part
of his training as a diplomat,was his relationship with this
already very politicallyprominent Mohawk family, and
then his marriage with MollyBrant was a huge part of his
rise to success the way that hewas able to parlay her
connections into his own furtherformalized connections within
(17:26):
the British system.
Kathryn Gehred (17:27):
What do we know about Molly Brant's life?
Unknown (17:30):
Not a ton. She seemed to have met Johnson when she was
fairly young, when CatherineWeisenberg was very ill. So
Molly was a very noted beautyearly in her life. There's kind
of this apocryphal story thatJohnson first saw her when she
was racing horses at this biggathering, and he was so struck
with her beauty, I think she wasmaybe 18 or 19, and he was just
(17:52):
so struck by her beauty whileshe was racing horses, and
became further acquainted. Thenthere's another apocryphal
account that she may have helpedtake care of Catherine
Weisenberg while she was dying,while she was very ill. And that
was kind of part of how thatconnection between Johnson and
Brant deepen. There's not a lotof definite stuff. She's very
prominent in the background, iskind of an oxymoron. But like,
(18:14):
she's very much in thebackground of Johnson's letters
as like this fixture in hislife, but the two letters that
we're going to talk about arethe only two letters that I know
about that she's written, andI've done a lot of work on Molly
Brant, so she's not got a lot ofher own documentation, and means
that her earlier life, beforeher marriage with Johnson, we
(18:36):
just don't know those twoaccounts of like how they met,
or her taking care of CatherineWeisenberg are apocryphal.
They're stories told well afterher death. So who knows if
they're true or not.
Kathryn Gehred (18:46):
In her encyclopedia entry, they
mentioned that her brother wasJoseph Brant. Is his anglicized
name, and who was he?
Unknown (18:55):
Thayendanegea Joseph Brant again, Wolf Clan Mohawk.
He's fairly young when Johnsonand Brant marry, he's probably
around 15 or so, and WilliamJohnson talks about Joseph Brant
as like my young protege, myyoung brother in law, Johnson
arranges for Joseph Brandt toattend Eliezer Wheelock's Indian
Charity School in Connecticut.This is the school that later
(19:16):
becomes Dartmouth College. Thisis in like 1754, it seems to
have been kind of like a collegestudy abroad experience for
Joseph Brant, in that he wasthere probably less than a year.
He already spoke English, but itseems to have been an experience
It seems like the whole brandfamily was they were politically
the Johnson/Brant household inthe Mohawk Valley was noted from
being kind of a genteel Englishgentry style space. Joseph Brant
(19:39):
was very much in that spacelearning English style, manners
and how to talk to Englishdiplomats and politicians. And
his experience at EliezerWheelock's Indian Charity School
seemed to have been kind of afinishing school experience,
like how he positioned himself.How does Joseph Brant
understand? And the English andlater American impulse to
(20:00):
assimilate and erase indigenouscultures, and he reflects on
that later in his life, as wellof what he learned there and
then after that experience,Joseph grant goes on to be a
very prominent military leaderin both the French and Indian
War and the American Revolution.He's very much noted for his
significance to the British wareffort in both of those wars.
(20:26):
influential family on their ownwithin the Mohawk.
Maeve Kane (20:29):
Yeah.
Kathryn Gehred (20:30):
So this first letter that we're reading is
from October 5, 1779 so this isafter William Johnson's death,
right?
Maeve Kane (20:38):
Yeah. Johnson dies in 1774
Kathryn Gehred (20:40):
Okay. And she is writing to Daniel Claus, who is
Daniel Claus?
Unknown (20:45):
Daniel claus is her stepson in law. He married one
of Johnson's daughters byCatherine Weisenberg, and Molly
Brant seems to have been incharge of raising those girls.
She is more or less his motherin law. From a Haudenosaunee
perspective, is a verysignificant relationship. That's
the most important figure in thefamily is the mother in law.
Kathryn Gehred (21:05):
What's going on in the Revolutionary War and in
Molly Brants life at thismoment?
Unknown (21:10):
So 1777 Battle of Saratoga, the British have a
huge defeat at the hands of theContinental Army at Saratoga. By
78 the Six Nations can no longerreally remain neutral. In
November of 1778 the Committeeof Safety in the Mohawk Valley
staged a middle of the nightraid on Molly Brant's home at
Canajoharie, in the home of manyother Mohawk families at
(21:33):
Canajoharie at about 2am roustedall of these families out of
their homes, chased Molly Brantout of her home, stole her
clothes, gave them to the wivesand daughters of the Committee
of Safety. So by the winter of1778 Molly Brandt is at Carleton
Island as a refugee, having losther home. And then the following
(21:53):
summer and fall, in the latesummer of 1779 and finishing up
as Molly Brant was writing thisletter. In October of 79 George
Washington had given orders forwhat's now called the Sullican
Clionton Campaign to basicallyburn down Seneca, Cayuga, and
Onondaga territories. By Octoberof 79 they had burned more than
(22:15):
40 towns across those threenations territories hundreds of
thousands of bushel of cornright before the fall harvest.
So there's no food stored forthe winter. There's no seed corn
for the following spring. By thetime that Molly was writing this
letter, there's thousands ofSeneca, Cayuga, and Onondaga
refugees crowding into BritishNiagara for what's going to be a
(22:35):
very bad winter.
Kathryn Gehred (22:37):
That's so grim.
Maeve Kane (22:38):
it's not a great moment for the Six Nations.
Kathryn Gehred (22:41):
I guess Molly, who has something of a
leadership position with theMohawk, is going to take
advantage of that a little bitat this moment. Any other
context that you think would behelpful for all to understand
before we read the letter?
Unknown (22:52):
The last piece of context would be after Saratoga
fell in 1777 the previousBritish guy in charge, Carlton
had been replaced with FrederickHaldeman. So at this point in
1779 Haldeman is fairly new inhis post, and Carlton had lost
his position, in part because ofthe loss of Saratoga, and in
(23:15):
part because of he was notmanaging the diplomatic
situation with the Six Nations.Well, and that's really
important for understandingMolly Brandt's letter in this.
Because without Saratoga, andthe British loss at Saratoga,
the Six Nations are the lastBritish hold out, or last
British military force in thenorthern department. They're not
(23:36):
subjects of the British, but asa huge ally and a significant
military power. They're the onlybashion that the British have
left in the northern departmentat that point in the war.
Kathryn Gehred (23:45):
Okay, now, would you like to read this letter? Or
do you want me to read theletter?
Maeve Kane (23:49):
I can do the first one, and you do the second one.
Kathryn Gehred (23:52):
That sounds good to me.
Unknown (23:55):
Molly Brant to Daniel Claus, Carleton Island, 5
October 1779
Maeve Kane (24:01):
I have written to Col. [John] Butler and my
brother [Joseph Brant]acquainting them with my
situation, desiring theiradvice, as I was left no
directions concerning myself andfamily. I have been promised by
Col. [Guy] Johnson at Montreal,that I should hear from the
Gen’l [Haldimand] and have hisdirection in order to be
provided at whatever place mylittle service should be wanted
which you know I am always readyto do. The Indians are a good
(24:24):
deal dissatisfied on acct of theCol[onel] [Johnson’s] hasty
temper, which I hope he willsoon drop. Otherwise it may be
disadvantageous. I need not tellyou that whatever is promised or
told them it ought to beperformed.
Those from Canada [Kahnawake andAkwesasne] are most dissatisfied
on account of [Johnson’s] takingmore note of those that are
(24:45):
suspected [of being disloyal,eg, American-allied Oneida and
Tuscarora] than them that areknown to be Loyal
[British-allied Mohawk, Seneca,Onondaga, and Cayuga]. I tell
this only to you that you advisehim on that head.
Kathryn Gehred (25:00):
First off, this is just a very well written
letter. I think she gets rightto the point. She's making her
point very clearly when shetalks at the beginning. It does
seem what she says, whateverplace my little service should
be wanted. When she says herlittle service is she sort of
being intentionally modest here.How would you interpret that
(25:20):
line?
Unknown (25:21):
Yeah I think it's really strategic in a couple of
ways. You see this in whitewomen's letters of the 18th
century. Molly Brant, she wasresponsible for hosting dinners
and parties at Johnson Hallduring William Johnson's
lifetime. So she's reallyfamiliar with the British
expectations for etiquette forwomen. She's familiar with that.
And you see this kind ofstrategic modesty in white
(25:41):
women's letters too, I think.But there's also a strain of
Haudenosaunee rhetoric. PaulWilliams is an Onondaga attorney
who's written a lot on this, butthere's this deployment of
modesty and humility inHaudenosaunee oration in the
18th century, in rhetoric oflike how you present yourself
that always positions thespeaker as humble, modest and
(26:06):
not overstepping their ownauthority or their own
knowledge. And I think she'skind of walking on both of those
lines of the Haudenosauneetraditions of rhetoric and
English expectations of kind ofwomen's modesty in both those
places.
Kathryn Gehred (26:19):
Because when she gets into sort of the meat of
the letter. She does say, I neednot tell you that whatever is
promised or told them it oughtto be performed.
Unknown (26:25):
Molly Brant and Claus seem to have had a fairly warm
working relationship. She's hismother in law, and he has his
own by this point, more than 15years service as a translator to
the Mohawk as a diplomat,negotiator. So I think what's
going on in this is he knowswhat the situation is, but she's
laying out her directions aslike his mother in law as a more
(26:45):
seasoned diplomat, how are theygoing to approach Haldaman
together? And like, here's howshe wants to see him position
this.
Kathryn Gehred (26:53):
When she says otherwise, it may be
disadvantageous. Is she sayingthat the British allied groups
might cease to be allies? Isthat sort of what she's
threatening here?
Unknown (27:01):
Yeah there's another point. It's not in a letter by
her, in one of Claus's letters,where he reports that Guy
Johnson told Joseph Brant'speople to go hunt to provide
themselves with shoes, that GuyJohnson wasn't going to pay for
him, and that Molly Brant saidin response, if you tell my
brothers people to go hunt fortheir own shoes, they will soon
(27:22):
forget the war. So I think it'snot like a threat that they'll
join the Americans, but thatthey will no longer cease
working in the British interestas allies as they had been.
Kathryn Gehred (27:33):
Just give people shoes.
Maeve Kane (27:34):
Yeah, Guy Johnson is kind of a jerk.
Kathryn Gehred (27:36):
Yeah.
Maeve Kane (27:37):
Maybe not as messy, but like, yeah, he's not a great
guy.
Who is Guy Johnson again?
Unknown (27:42):
Guy Johsnon is another one of Molly Brant's son in
laws. Okay, so when WilliamJohnson died in 1774 Guy Johnson
was, at that point, married toJohnson's youngest daughter by
Catherine Weisenberg, and GuyJohnson is the one who takes
over William Johnson's job assuperintendent of Indian
Affairs, and he, like, kickedMolly out of her house.
Kathryn Gehred (28:03):
Oh, my God.
Maeve Kane (28:04):
Basically, as soon as William Johnson died, they do
not seem to have had a goodrelationship. And in the second
letter comes up a little bitmore. But by late 1781 guy,
Johnson lost his job asSuperintendent of Indian Affairs
because he was suspected ofembezzling. So he's refusing, on
the one hand, to provide shoesto these very important allies
(28:24):
like Joseph Brant's people hadbeen incredibly important
throughout the war, and Johnsonis like, No, I'm not going to
pay for shoes. And then, on theother hand, he's dipping into
royal funds for the war. He'snever convicted, but he gets
kicked out of his job forembezzlement.
Kathryn Gehred (28:40):
Classic
Maeve Kane (28:41):
Yeah.
Kathryn Gehred (28:42):
The only other thing that stuck out to me from
this letter is that herdiplomatic advice is
essentially, don't lie to us,like stop lying to us and don't
make false promises, becausethat's bad treatment of your
allies. Just from my limitedknowledge, into indigenous and
colonial relations, that seemslike it's a theme. White
colonists keep making promisesand not keeping them.
Unknown (29:03):
Yeah and I think this is especially like, this letter
is more it's not addressed toFrederick Haldeman, but it's
about educating Haldeman as he'snewly arrived governor and
commander of the British inNorth America. It's written to
Klaus, but it's aimed ateducating Haldeman on like how
you do diplomacy, and you cansee that in that bit, keep the
(29:23):
promises that are made. GuyJohnson is not keeping those
promises, even though he hasthis long relationship with the
Mohawk.
Kathryn Gehred (29:30):
Huh. All right, so we've got another letter.
This one's written a coupleyears later. I'll go ahead and
read this one.
Molly Brant to Daniel Claus,Carleton Island, 12 April 1781
It touched me very sore to hearfrom Niagara how my younger
brother Joseph Brant was usedthe 6th of April, by being
almost murdered by Col Johnsonspeople, what adds to my grief
(29:53):
and vexation is that beingscarce returned safe from the
rebel country, he must be thustreated by those of the kings
people who always stay quietlyat home and in the fort, while
my brother continually exposeshis life in going against the
enemy taking prisoners etc asfar as in his power. This usage
of my brothers makes me dreadthe consequences, as some of the
(30:15):
Six Nations were spectators ofit, and well remember what Genl
[Philip] Schuyler told them[Oneidas] that they would be ill
used and despised by the Kingspeople for their services, of
which they have now a proof forwhich reason I entreat his
excellency General Haldimand touse his authority and settle
this matter. It is hard for meto have an only brother whom I
(30:37):
dearly love to see him thustreated, but what I am most
concerned about is that it mayaffect the Kings Indian
interest. The whole matter is,that the officers at Niagara are
so haughty and proud, notknowing or considering that the
King’s interest is so nearlyconnected with that of the
Indians.
(30:58):
That last sentence, it justseems like this is sort of the
summary of almost all of Britishrelations with indigenous
people. Is like the fate of yourmilitary mission is really tied
with relationship with NativeAmerican people on the
continent. And I think that thatjust seems to be the lesson that
everybody just keeps forgettingover and over again. Do you
Unknown (31:16):
Indian diplomacy was a professional space. And what
think that's fair?
I mean, that seems like sort ofspecifically British and
Molly Brant is dealing with isshe's a professional and she's
masculine kind of haughtiness,of like I can enter space and
dealing with people who aren'tprofessionals, these newly
I've been given this militaryposition, so therefore I know
arrived British officers whothink that they know what's
going on and they don't. Mycolleague, Alyssa Mount
everything, and then justcompletely without even
Pleasant, she's a Tuscarorahistorian, and she calls this
(31:36):
illiteracy in the language ofdiplomacy. And I think that's a
realizing it, just messing up.Yeah, but to get back to the
really interesting way oflooking at this, of like these
British officers are moving intospace, but they just have no
concept that they don't evenknow what they don't know.
(32:06):
content of the letter, what'sshe referencing here about the
sixth of April?
Maeve Kane (32:10):
So I don't actually know.
Kathryn Gehred (32:12):
Oh, okay.
Maeve Kane (32:13):
Joseph Brant's people in late March and early
April had been preparing toattack the Oneida. The Oneida at
this point are allied with theAmericans, and Brant's people
were preparing a raid, but theyget called back from it, and by
the eighth of April, Guy Johnsongives orders for Joseph Brant's
people instead to go to FortDetroit, so quite a ways away. I
(32:37):
don't know what happened on thesixth of April, but it seems to
have been in this moment wherethey're called back from this
attack on the Oneida and thensent very far west. I'm not
sure, like it seems from this,that it might have been like a
friendly fire situation or somekind of situation where they
were put in danger as a resultof being called back. But I just
don't know, GuyJohnson andJoseph Brandt never got along.
(33:01):
That relationship deterioratedover the course of the war
because he's a jerk, becausehe's not paying for shoes. But I
have no idea what happened onthe sixth of April.
Kathryn Gehred (33:10):
When she says general Philip Skyler told the
Oneidas that they would be ill,used and despised by the king's
people. Could you tell me alittle bit more about what's
going on there?
Unknown (33:18):
Philip Schuyler had literally called it a plantation
in the Saratoga area. He'sliving part time in Saratoga and
part time in Albany, and he wasthe major point of diplomatic
contact between the Continentalsand the Oneida. He made
overtures to some of the otherSix Nations, including the
Mohawk but the Oneida were theones that he was able to
convince to ally with theAmericans. Because the Oneida,
(33:41):
for a long time, beginning inthe Seven Years' War period, had
been kind of dissatisfied withJohnson. They had felt that
Johnson kind of favored theMohawk over their interests.
They were dissatisfied with kindof how Johnson protected their
land holding, and the Oneidaultimately allied with the
Continental Army, or theAmericans, because they believed
(34:02):
that it was the best way tosecure their own lands. So
Skyler was really instrumentalin cementing that relationship,
likewise, with the Tuscarora whoallied with the Americans, but
Skyler was also the primaryarchitect of the Sullivan
Clinton Campaign that burnedOnondaga, Cuyuga, Seneca
territory. So early in the war,he was very invested in trying
(34:24):
to keep the Six Nations who werenot allied with the Americans
neutral, at the very least. Andthen later in the war, like he
uses this knowledge of diplomacyagainst the Six Nations who ally
with the British.
Kathryn Gehred (34:37):
And again, she sort of talks about her own
concerns about her brother andher brother possibly dying, but
then she says what I'm mostconcerned about is how it may
affect the King's Indianinterests. So that, again, seems
like pretty clear diplomacy tome. How would you describe what
she's trying to accomplishthere?
Unknown (34:53):
I think it's another one of these deployments of
female concern, like familialconcern there with her. Concern
for her brother, Joseph. She'sgot almost 30 years of
experience as a diplomat. By thepoint of the American
Revolution, she's got way moreexperience than these British
officers at Niagara andespecially thinking about that
last couple of years from likeSaratoga through the Sullivan
(35:15):
Clinton campaign in the winterof 1779 underlining This is
going very badly for theBritish, and they need these
allies.
Kathryn Gehred (35:24):
Molly Brant being such a professional
diplomat, but it comes acrosssort of being so respectful to
these people who are giving herand her people such little
respect. And it just makes mefrustrated when I read it, but
she's doing an excellent job.She's doing an incredible job.
But it's one of those thingslike, the more you learn about
American history, the more youjust get angry. Sometimes, angry
sometimes. Yeah, so from all ofyour research into Molly Brant,
(35:46):
do you feel like you have anunderstanding of what she was
like as a person and herpersonality? I know that's a
really tough question.
Unknown (35:50):
I feel like I have an understanding of her as a
Kathryn Gehred (35:51):
That's fascinating.
professional. I don't feel likeI have an understanding of her
as a person. These are the onlytwo letters that I know of that
are written by her. I'll behonest, I'm not even sure if
they were written by her. Ifthey were dictated by her,
they're in it a copy book in thehand of other people. I think
(36:11):
she was literate. There's areference that she wrote to her
brother, Joseph Brant atdifferent points in Mohawk and
Maeve Kane (36:16):
There's so much stuff about her, like that
like housekeeping in thisperiod, especially a large house
like Johnson Hall or FortJohnson needed numeracy and
literacy, so I think that shewas probably literate in English
and Mohawk, but we don't forsure have a letter in her hand.
So the other piece of how, how Iunderstand her as a person, is
(36:36):
you get these little glimpses ofher diplomatic negotiations,
separate from the diplomaticnegotiations of her husband
William Johnson, where we don'thave her own letters on this,
but we get like these secondhand reports through Johnson and
his descriptions sometimes ofwhat she's doing. And one of
these instances that I findreally interesting was during
(36:57):
the early 1760s, late in theFrench and Indian War. There's
this instance where this Britishofficer, I think he was a
lieutenant, had a son with aSeneca woman, and he had been
stationed out in Senecaterritory in what's now far
western New York. And then theBritish lieutenant was recalled.
He was stationed somewhere else,no longer in Seneca territory,
apocryphal story of her on thehorse, and she's so beautiful
(37:18):
and he wanted to take his sonwith him, and his Seneca wife
just basically disappeared withthe kid and said, No, you're not
going to take my son. Because inHaudenosaunee, frameworks of
family, children are part of thewife's family, part of the
mother's family. They get theirclan and their national
belonging through their mother'sline, and not their father. And
(37:40):
divorce seems to have beenpretty easy for Haudenosaunee
families, just a matter ofsocial separation, but the
and whatever, that's so verylike, steeped in this tradition
British officer had no frameworkfor this. He was really upset by
this, and kept writing Johnsonletters of like, help me get my
son back, and trying to getJohnson to intervene in this.
And Johnson kept deferring toMolly, of like, she'll make
(38:01):
inquiries on your behalf, andshe'll do this and that, and she
does seem to have done that, butthe last letter on it was
Johnson reported that Molly saidthat the Seneca wife's decision
was final and that she wouldn'tbe further pursuing it. And I
think that it shows that MollyBrant has her own diplomatic
connections, separate from herhusband. That she has these
(38:23):
connections to pursue thisSeneca Nation is a separate
nation from Mohawk Nation, evenif they're in the Haudenosaunee
Confederacy. So she has her owndiplomatic connections, and
she's willing to at least usethem to make connections on
behalf of this British officer,but that she's still working
within Haudenosaunee frameworksof family, that what the Seneca
(38:45):
mother, what her decision on thecustody of that child was, was
ultimately about Senecaframeworks of family, and Molly
Brant prioritized those.
(39:09):
of describing Indian women aslike these sexually available
beauties who are interested inmarrying white men, it's hard to
get a sense of her as a personthrough that lens. Other people
write about her in her laterlife as like this very gracious
hostess, both at Johnson Hallduring Johnson's lifetime and
later when she's living as awidow in Canada. And they write
(39:32):
about her as this very gracioushostess who blends English
manners with Haudenosauneediplomacy. You get a sense of
her in that and she seems tohave been a very devoted mother
to her own children, to her stepdaughters by Johnson, but
there's not a lot of her you getthese strategic deployments in
(39:52):
these letters to Claus. She'svery professional and on top of
her stuff, but that doesn't tellyou what somebody is like a
person, especially when being awhite woman, looking at her
through this lens of all theseother white people's letters
about her, I don't feel like Ihave a sense of who she is.
Kathryn Gehred (40:11):
And I think that's totally fair. Maybe she
didn't want people to have asense of who she was. Maybe she
gets to keep that and that'sokay. Yeah. What do you think is
the most important thing thatyou want people who listen this
podcast to sort of know orunderstand about Molly Brant's
experience at the AmericanRevolution.
Maeve Kane (40:28):
The American Revolution is really easy to
read as this huge loss forIndigenous women, especially
Indigenous women who are membersof nation, ballied with the
British and Molly Brant isexceptional in some ways because
of her marriage to WilliamJohnson and her family's
diplomatic and politicalprominence, but I think she's
(40:49):
pretty typical in the lossesthat she experienced, that
nighttime rate on her home, theloss of her home, her experience
as a refugee at different pointsin the war. But I think you can
see in her letters that, yes,she experienced those losses,
and yes, she had to deal withGuy Johnson, these British
officers at Niagara who didn'ttake her seriously. But she
(41:12):
never lost her agency. What wedon't see in these letters is
that she is largely successfulin shaping Haldeman's
relationship with the SixNations. Guy Johnson loses his
job. Molly Brant gets a pensionfrom the British government. So
she experiences these loss otherindigenous women, Mohawk,
Oneida, other members of the SixNations, experienced these loss
(41:35):
during the American Revolutionand the post war period
especially was very hard withenormous punitive land losses in
territories that would becomeNew York. But those women and
their nations persisted. Thenations are still here in 2024
and the women like Molly Brantwere able to exercise agency
(41:56):
within that crisis, shape thediplomacy of that period and
shape how their nationsnavigated that crisis. Family
and diplomacy are not alwaysthat separate.
Kathryn Gehred (42:09):
Wow. That was extremely well put.
Maeve Kane (42:12):
Thank you.
Kathryn Gehred (42:12):
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
This has been such a fascinatingconversation.
Maeve Kane (42:17):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Kathryn Gehred (42:19):
So again, this is Dr Maeve Kane, her book is
called Shirts Powdered Red: Haudenosaunee Gender, Trade, and (42:21):
undefined
Exchange, and you should read itimmediately. So I will put links
to everything in the show notes.And for my listeners, I am as
ever, your most obedient andhumble servant. Thank you.
Your Most Obedient & HumbleServant is a production of R2
(42:44):
Studios, part of the RoyRosenzweig Center for History
and New Media at George MasonUniversity. I'm Kathryn Gehred,
the creator and host of thispodcast, Jeanette Patrick and
Jim Ambuske are the executiveproducers. Hayley Madl is our
graduate assistant. Specialthanks to Virginia Humanities
(43:04):
for allowing me to use theirrecording studio. If you enjoyed
this episode, please tell afriend and be sure to rate and
review the series in yourpodcast app. For more great
history podcasts, head tor2studios.org. Thanks for
listening.
Music.
Kathryn Gehred (00:06):
Hello and welcome to Your Most Obedient &
Humble Servant. This is awomen's history podcast where we
feature 18th and early 19thcentury women's letters that
don't get as much attention aswe think they should. I'm your
host. Kathryn Gehred. Today I amthrilled to welcome Dr. Maeve
Kane to the podcast. Maeve is anAssociate Professor and the
Director of Graduate Studies forthe History Department at the
(00:27):
University of Albany. Her bookShirts Powdered Red:
Haudenosaunee Gender, Trade, andExchange is about what we can
learn about Haudenosaunee womenthrough their labor and consumer
choices over three centuries.Hello, Maeve.
Maeve Kane (00:41):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Kathryn Gehred (00:43):
Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm
really excited to talk to youbefore we get started about the
podcast. I want to talk a littlebit about your book.
Unknown (00:51):
Yeah, the elevator pitch for the book is, what can
you know about what Indigenouswomen thought, specifically
about issues of race, genderconversion, attempts at
assimilation from what they weremaking and wearing. A lot of
those questions historiansapproach from the writings of
Europeans and white settlers,mostly men, sometimes women, but
(01:14):
we don't have a lot of writtenarchival work by indigenous
women. There's oral historystuff that's really interesting,
and I tried to incorporate thatin the book, but mostly the book
asks if you approach thosequestions that historians have
more commonly answered witharchival material by white
Europeans and settlers, butinstead ask them of Indigenous
women and use clothing as a wayto get at that, what does that
(01:35):
say about what those peoplethought about the enormous
changes of the 17th, 18th andearly 19th centuries.
Kathryn Gehred (01:42):
Well, that's super interesting. Who make up
the Haudenosaunee? Who are theHaudenosaunee?
Unknown (01:47):
The Haudenosaunee are six nations, independent,
distinct and separate. They arethe Mohawk, Oneida, Cayuga,
Onondaga, Seneca, and Tuscarorain the 18th century, and today,
in the 21st century, they occupytheir historic territories in
what's now the state of New Yorkand southern Canada.
Kathryn Gehred (02:05):
How would you describe Haudenosaunee women in
the 18th century and therelationship to material
culture?
Unknown (02:10):
One of the things that I find really interesting about
this period, and about howHaudenosaunee people, how
Haudenosaunee women were kind ofpositioning themselves, is that
in a lot of cases, Haudenosauneewomen were buying many of the
same items that white women andfamilies were often from the
same traders. Some of thematerials that I work with are
(02:30):
count books from traders. Theseare basically like itemized
credit card receipts, where it'slisting exactly what people were
buying and sometimes what theywere going to use it for. And
some of these traders, these arewhite, European descent traders.
They're selling to both whitefamilies and Haudenosaunee
families, same exact fabric,same exact clothing. And yet you
(02:51):
can tell in both what they'rebuying alongside those things
and then how they use it later,that they're using it in
completely different kinds ofclothing. So like white families
will buy buttons. They'll buykind of interfacing type
material for very structured,tailored kind of coats and
things like that. And that's notwhat Haudenosaunee families are
(03:12):
buying, no buttons, none of thestiff kind of tailoring
materials. They're buyingmaterials that are more or less
in line with pre contact formsof dress. So they'll buy the
same kind of woolens that whitefamilies were wearing, but
they'll buy it for a blanketthat's to be wrapped around and
decorated with silk ribbonsthat's similar in form to like a
beaver fur coat, but it's notthe same kind of like
(03:34):
structured, tailored coats thatEuropeans are wearing same thing
with, like women's skirts, bothwhite women and Haudenosaunee
women wore skirts. White womentended to go down to about their
ankles, and Haudenosauneewomen's were a less full around
the waist and B, about kneelength, because they're doing
different kinds of agriculturaland household work, same
materials, same sources, butradically different use cases
(03:57):
because of kind of the genderedlabor roles and the distinct
cultural identity of those twogroups.
Kathryn Gehred (04:03):
That's so fascinating. And I think it sort
of goes against the way thatmovies portray indigenous people
at this time, the sort ofimagined what an indigenous
person would look like in stufflike Dances with Wolves and
things like that. You don't seesomebody wearing paisley, but
maybe there was somesimilarities there, but in a
unique way.
Unknown (04:23):
Yeah, looking towards the American Revolution, one of
the things that I think broughttogether these communities,
especially like the Mohawk andthe Oneida, whose lands were
increasingly encroached on bywhite settlers. These families
are living side by side in thelate 18th century. They know
what each other look like. Theyknow what each other are buying.
So it's a really consciouschoice to, like, not do those
(04:43):
things. Europeans settlers inthis area were really hopeful
that Haudenosaunee peoplebuying, just like, absolutely
enormous amounts of cloth. Andthey were really buying huge
amounts of cloth and clothing.Settlers took this as like, Oh,
these Haudenosaunee people willbe converted to Christian.
Vanity really easily. From thesettler side, it seemed like
they were starting to assimilateto like European modes of dress.
(05:06):
Wearing white shirts and buyinga lot of woolens was taken as a
hopeful sign for cushioningconversion. But Haudenosaunee
people were not interested inthat. They were very selective
in what they bought and whatthey wore, and you can see that
at these very deliberatechoices, that they're aware of,
what white settlers werewearing, aware of what was
available, and they made choicesthat were very distinctly
Haudenosaunee in that context.
Kathryn Gehred (05:28):
And that makes perfect sense. It's just a new
type of fabric that you can workinto the culture that you
already have. It doesn't meanthat you're like, Well, my
culture is bad now I'mcompletely moving into this new
one. Yeah, exactly. But can useit in the way that you want to.
How would you say that sort ofwomen's roles were different
between Indigenous andHaudenosaunee women and white
Unknown (05:47):
in some ways, they're very similar. Like Haudenosaunee
women?
and white women are bothresponsible for things like
child care, household likelaundry, buying cloth and
clothing, maintaining and makingcloth and clothing. There's a
lot of similarities in someways, in those gendered roles,
but there's a really differentroles when it comes to
agriculture, especiallyespecially more like working
(06:10):
class white women in thisperiod, where, you know, they
would do some agricultural workin like market gardens or
kitchen gardens, also some dairywork. Haudenosaunee women are
primarily responsible for, likelarge scale field, plow based
agriculture. Haudenosaunee womenare the ones that are primarily
responsible for large scaleagriculture, because the way
(06:30):
that agriculture works for theHaudenosaunee is, instead of an
individual piece of land beingheld and worked by an individual
farmer. For Haudenosauneecommunities, the land is kind of
cooperatively owned and managedby clan mothers, the eldest
woman in a clan or a familylineage, who would kind of
manage the work of her daughtersin that clan. And so they're
(06:53):
working a large piece of landcooperatively, and it's not
individually held by a singleperson. And that's the basis of
both Haudenosaunee culture.There's a lot of religious
rituals and ceremonies tied tothat, like cycles of the seasons
and everything, but also likemilitary and economic power,
what's now the state of NewYork, before there's irrigation
(07:15):
in the American Midwest in the19th century is the most
productive agricultural area inthe 13 colonies, or not in the
13 colonies, because it'sHaudenosaunee territory, but
it's like astoundinglyagriculturally productive, and
that's all Haudenosaunee women'swork, and it comes under
military attack in therevolution.
Kathryn Gehred (07:33):
And that's something that's sort of
directly oppositional to whitegender roles or farming seen as
sort of like a masculine rolefor what we're talking about,
specifically for this season ofyour most obedient and humble
servant. We're talking about theAmerican Revolution. What impact
did the American Revolution haveon the lives of Haudenosaunee
women?
Unknown (07:52):
The American Revolution, in older histories
of indigenous people, was oftenfigured as this like huge moment
of crisis, a big rupture withthe past, and like the moment
where colonialism becomesinevitable and national
sovereignty is forever destroyedfor indigenous nations. And I
(08:12):
think the newer scholarshipwould say, and this is also what
I argue in the book, that theAmerican Revolution is enormous
crisis point. It's a huge pointof eventual land loss after the
American Revolution. But I thinkthe newer scholarship would
argue, and I argue that it's nota point of inevitable decline,
(08:33):
that these nations stillcontinue to exist in the present
and their sovereignty isuninterrupted in the moment of
the American Revolution, thoughit's a huge disruption to
women's lives. I mean, it is forbasically all families in
eastern North America at thetime, but for Haudenosaunee
women, specifically, the SixNations of the Confederacy
declare their neutrality in theconflict in 1775 but over the
(08:57):
course of the next few years,after 1778 the Six Nations can
no longer remain neutral. That'snot really an option that's on
the table anymore. And you seethat in what happens in women's
lives, the Six Nations have topick sides. The Oneida and the
Tuscarora ally with theAmericans. The rest of the Six
Nations formerly ally with theBritish. And for women,
(09:19):
specifically, this means attackson their bodies, on their homes,
on their lands from varioussides, a large part of the
population after the AmericanRevolution is refugees and have
to resettle their ownterritories.
Kathryn Gehred (09:33):
Wow. From the indigenous perspective, the
American Revolution was justsort of one more conflict on top
of many other conflicts. Wasthis something that felt like it
was just a continuation of whatthey'd been living with? Or was
this even bigger?
Unknown (09:47):
There's this moment where a set of Haudenosaunee
diplomats say to PhilipSchuyler, who's making overtures
to the Oneida and other nationsto ally with the Americans
instead of the British. Andthese Haudenosaunee diplomats.
Say to Schuyler, this is aconflict between a father and
his children, and we want nopart of it. And like, that's
their argument for Haudenosauneeneutrality. They see this as a
(10:10):
conflict that they don't reallyhave part in. It's in large part
because they have this existingdiplomatic relationship with the
British specifically, and theythink it's very important to
honor that diplomaticrelationship. King George
Kathryn Gehred (10:21):
probably saw it sort of like that as well as
he's the father. There's thechildren. So what sort of things
were indigenous peopleconsidering when they were
deciding you talked about howthe Haudenosaunee took their
relationship with the Britishreally seriously. So this entire
idea of the American colonistsbeing separate from the British,
was that something that alreadykind of existed in their heads,
or did they sort of see theAmerican colonists who they were
(10:42):
dealing with as British people?
Unknown (10:44):
So the Haudenosaunee were definitely aware of ethnic
divisions between the Americansettlers. This was especially
the case and kind of a point ofconcern for the British military
during the French and Indian Wara generation prior, where the
Haudenosaunee were very aware oftensions between German settlers
in the Mohawk Valley Dutchancestry people at Albany and
(11:07):
then the British military thatthey did not get along. The
British military fear that theHaudenosaunee may have allied
with the French during theFrench and Indian War, and that
was a major concern because ofHaudenosaunee military power in
that conflict as well. And theywere concerned that, like if the
Mohawk and the Oneida or otherHaudenosaunee allied with the
French, that they would takealong with them the Mohawk
(11:28):
Valley Germans or the Dutch atAlbany and exploit some of those
kind of ethnic tensions. Andwhen it gets to the American
Revolution, I think that theHaudenosaunee were aware of the
American the people who becamethe Continentals, they were
aware of the impulse toseparate, but they still viewed
them as like they're all underone king, that this is a group
(11:50):
of people that, just asHaudenosaunee had their
diplomatic agreements andobligations that they'd made to
the British government, that sotoo did The American colonists,
and that the Haudenosauneebelieved that that conflict
would settle out because theBritish have been a presence on
the continent for more than acentury at that point, right.
Kathryn Gehred (12:10):
Interesting. Now, for the purposes of this
podcast, we like to get intovery specifics of one document,
and in this case, this is one ofthose unusual cases, sometimes
where we have a letter that'sactually from an indigenous
woman. So this is a letter fromthe anglicized version of her
name. Is Molly Brant, do youknow how to pronounce her name?
Unknown (12:30):
Yeah. I will preface this with my Mohawk. Students
tell me that my Mohawkpronunciation is very bad, so I
will pronounce it, but mypronunciation is not great.
Konwatsi'tsiaienni Molly Brant.
Kathryn Gehred (12:41):
From my perspective, my first
introduction to Molly Brant wasbecause I work for an
encyclopedia. We're writing anencyclopedia entry on Dunmore's
War. And in that I was lookingup Sir William Johnson, and I
went to the Oxford Dictionary ofNational Biography. And I will
say that this is theintroductory paragraph of this
encyclopedia entry about SirWilliam Johnson just makes him
(13:04):
sound so messy in his personallife.
Unknown (13:06):
He is! Its part of what I love about him. But, yeah,
he's real messy
Kathryn Gehred (13:12):
Because normally they try to be so dry in this
stuff, but it was just likethere was no way that they could
explain this and still be dry.So I'm just going to read a
brief bit. By 1743 he had movedto several thousand acres of his
own land near present day,Amsterdam, New York, where he
called his home fort Johnson.Since 1739 he had been living
with Catherine Weisenberg, aGerman servant who had run away
(13:33):
from her New York City master atthe age of 17. There's no record
of illegal marriage, but Johnsoncalled her his wife, and she was
buried with what those who laterexhumed his corpse assumed to be
her wedding ring engraved withthe date 16 June, 1739, the
couple had three children.Catherine died in April 1759,
perhaps even before that date,Johnson began a relationship
(13:54):
with his housekeeper, Mary MollyBrant, sister of the Mohawk
leader Joseph Brant, Johnsonacknowledged paternity of her
eight children, and in his will,which called her mother merely
his prudent and faithfulhousekeeper, promised each the
equivalent of a farmstead. So,okay, Sir William Johnson. Also
okay, encyclopedia entry writer,by just saying, sister of Mohawk
(14:15):
leader Joseph Brant.
Maeve Kane (14:17):
Do you want even more messiness on top of that?
Kathryn Gehred (14:19):
Oh, please, please.
Maeve Kane (14:20):
Catherine Weisenberg's mother seemed to
have been living at Johnson Hallafter Catherine Weisenberg's
death, while Molly Brant was hishousekeeper slash wife.
Kathryn Gehred (14:30):
Ah, very complicated.
Maeve Kane (14:32):
Yeah, it's a really interesting set of family
relationships.
Kathryn Gehred (14:35):
So I saw that, and I'm like, there's gotta be
more to this. This is like theencyclopedia, like dipping their
toe into these sort of personalrelationships. On your end,
personally, what's your opinionof Sir William Johnson?
Unknown (14:47):
I find him really interesting. I don't think I
would want to like go out todinner with him. He's so
interesting in the way that hepositions himself. He's like his
own greatest promoter. And Ithink that's a big part of his
success, financially,militarily, etc. He's his own
best booster, his own besthypeman. But like, as a person,
(15:11):
there does seem to have been, Ithink, a lot of affection
between both Johnson andWeisenberg and Johnson and
Brant. But like, yeah, I don'tthink I would want to like work
with the guy.
Kathryn Gehred (15:23):
Yeah. So I guess I sort of jumped in there pretty
deep. I do love to talk aboutmen starting with their personal
lives, because people do thatwith women a lot, and it's fun
to do it with men too. So he wasa colonial official, Sir William
Johnson. It seems like he wasalso very interested in making
money off of land acquisition,yeah, but he got this position
(15:43):
basically as, what was hisofficial title?
Unknown (15:46):
So he's eventually the Superintendent of British Indian
Affairs. He was born in Irelandand sent over by his uncle to
manage this parcel of land inthe Mohawk Valley. And he
eventually parlays that intotrade and relationships with the
Mohawk who are living there. Andhis uncle's not happy about
that, because he's spending moretime, like making money off of
the fur trade than he is onmanaging his uncle's land, or
(16:08):
spending more time speculatingon additional land than actually
managing his his uncle's land.And then he parlays that yet
further in the French and IndianWar into this baronetcy and
military position, and he's thehead guy of all diplomatic
negotiations between the Britishand all indigenous nations in
North America, which is a hugestep up. And I think his
(16:29):
relationship with Molly brandand her family was a huge part
of that.
Kathryn Gehred (16:31):
How much of that is him, and how much of that is
he just happened to have thispersonal relationship with a
mohawk woman, and he was able tosort of translate that into a
position?
Unknown (16:41):
Molly and Joseph were members of the Mohawk Wolf Clan.
Their father had been a reallyprominent diplomat. Their mother
was probably a Clan Mother andWilliam Johnson, before his
relationship with Molly Brant,had this long standing
diplomatic and traderelationship with their father,
that seems to have been how theymet. Some other historians of
Johnson might disagree with me.I don't think Johnson was all
(17:03):
that prominent before hisrelationship with that family. I
think that that was a real keyto his success, like a huge part
of his training as a diplomat,was his relationship with this
already very politicallyprominent Mohawk family, and
then his marriage with MollyBrant was a huge part of his
rise to success the way that hewas able to parlay her
connections into his own furtherformalized connections within
(17:26):
the British system.
Kathryn Gehred (17:27):
What do we know about Molly Brant's life?
Unknown (17:30):
Not a ton. She seemed to have met Johnson when she was
fairly young, when CatherineWeisenberg was very ill. So
Molly was a very noted beautyearly in her life. There's kind
of this apocryphal story thatJohnson first saw her when she
was racing horses at this biggathering, and he was so struck
with her beauty, I think she wasmaybe 18 or 19, and he was just
(17:52):
so struck by her beauty whileshe was racing horses, and
became further acquainted. Thenthere's another apocryphal
account that she may have helpedtake care of Catherine
Weisenberg while she was dying,while she was very ill. And that
was kind of part of how thatconnection between Johnson and
Brant deepen. There's not a lotof definite stuff. She's very
prominent in the background, iskind of an oxymoron. But like,
(18:14):
she's very much in thebackground of Johnson's letters
as like this fixture in hislife, but the two letters that
we're going to talk about arethe only two letters that I know
about that she's written, andI've done a lot of work on Molly
Brant, so she's not got a lot ofher own documentation, and means
that her earlier life, beforeher marriage with Johnson, we
(18:36):
just don't know those twoaccounts of like how they met,
or her taking care of CatherineWeisenberg are apocryphal.
They're stories told well afterher death. So who knows if
they're true or not.
Kathryn Gehred (18:46):
In her encyclopedia entry, they
mentioned that her brother wasJoseph Brant. Is his anglicized
name, and who was he?
Unknown (18:55):
Thayendanegea Joseph Brant again, Wolf Clan Mohawk.
He's fairly young when Johnsonand Brant marry, he's probably
around 15 or so, and WilliamJohnson talks about Joseph Brant
as like my young protege, myyoung brother in law, Johnson
arranges for Joseph Brandt toattend Eliezer Wheelock's Indian
Charity School in Connecticut.This is the school that later
(19:16):
becomes Dartmouth College. Thisis in like 1754, it seems to
have been kind of like a collegestudy abroad experience for
Joseph Brant, in that he wasthere probably less than a year.
He already spoke English, but itseems to have been an experience
It seems like the whole brandfamily was they were politically
the Johnson/Brant household inthe Mohawk Valley was noted from
being kind of a genteel Englishgentry style space. Joseph Brant
(19:39):
was very much in that spacelearning English style, manners
and how to talk to Englishdiplomats and politicians. And
his experience at EliezerWheelock's Indian Charity School
seemed to have been kind of afinishing school experience,
like how he positioned himself.How does Joseph Brant
understand? And the English andlater American impulse to
(20:00):
assimilate and erase indigenouscultures, and he reflects on
that later in his life, as wellof what he learned there and
then after that experience,Joseph grant goes on to be a
very prominent military leaderin both the French and Indian
War and the American Revolution.He's very much noted for his
significance to the British wareffort in both of those wars.
(20:26):
influential family on their ownwithin the Mohawk.
Maeve Kane (20:29):
Yeah.
Kathryn Gehred (20:30):
So this first letter that we're reading is
from October 5, 1779 so this isafter William Johnson's death,
right?
Maeve Kane (20:38):
Yeah. Johnson dies in 1774
Kathryn Gehred (20:40):
Okay. And she is writing to Daniel Claus, who is
Daniel Claus?
Unknown (20:45):
Daniel claus is her stepson in law. He married one
of Johnson's daughters byCatherine Weisenberg, and Molly
Brant seems to have been incharge of raising those girls.
She is more or less his motherin law. From a Haudenosaunee
perspective, is a verysignificant relationship. That's
the most important figure in thefamily is the mother in law.
Kathryn Gehred (21:05):
What's going on in the Revolutionary War and in
Molly Brants life at thismoment?
Unknown (21:10):
So 1777 Battle of Saratoga, the British have a
huge defeat at the hands of theContinental Army at Saratoga. By
78 the Six Nations can no longerreally remain neutral. In
November of 1778 the Committeeof Safety in the Mohawk Valley
staged a middle of the nightraid on Molly Brant's home at
Canajoharie, in the home of manyother Mohawk families at
(21:33):
Canajoharie at about 2am roustedall of these families out of
their homes, chased Molly Brantout of her home, stole her
clothes, gave them to the wivesand daughters of the Committee
of Safety. So by the winter of1778 Molly Brandt is at Carleton
Island as a refugee, having losther home. And then the following
(21:53):
summer and fall, in the latesummer of 1779 and finishing up
as Molly Brant was writing thisletter. In October of 79 George
Washington had given orders forwhat's now called the Sullican
Clionton Campaign to basicallyburn down Seneca, Cayuga, and
Onondaga territories. By Octoberof 79 they had burned more than
(22:15):
40 towns across those threenations territories hundreds of
thousands of bushel of cornright before the fall harvest.
So there's no food stored forthe winter. There's no seed corn
for the following spring. By thetime that Molly was writing this
letter, there's thousands ofSeneca, Cayuga, and Onondaga
refugees crowding into BritishNiagara for what's going to be a
(22:35):
very bad winter.
Kathryn Gehred (22:37):
That's so grim.
Maeve Kane (22:38):
it's not a great moment for the Six Nations.
Kathryn Gehred (22:41):
I guess Molly, who has something of a
leadership position with theMohawk, is going to take
advantage of that a little bitat this moment. Any other
context that you think would behelpful for all to understand
before we read the letter?
Unknown (22:52):
The last piece of context would be after Saratoga
fell in 1777 the previousBritish guy in charge, Carlton
had been replaced with FrederickHaldeman. So at this point in
1779 Haldeman is fairly new inhis post, and Carlton had lost
his position, in part because ofthe loss of Saratoga, and in
(23:15):
part because of he was notmanaging the diplomatic
situation with the Six Nations.Well, and that's really
important for understandingMolly Brandt's letter in this.
Because without Saratoga, andthe British loss at Saratoga,
the Six Nations are the lastBritish hold out, or last
British military force in thenorthern department. They're not
(23:36):
subjects of the British, but asa huge ally and a significant
military power. They're the onlybashion that the British have
left in the northern departmentat that point in the war.
Kathryn Gehred (23:45):
Okay, now, would you like to read this letter? Or
do you want me to read theletter?
Maeve Kane (23:49):
I can do the first one, and you do the second one.
Kathryn Gehred (23:52):
That sounds good to me.
Unknown (23:55):
Molly Brant to Daniel Claus, Carleton Island, 5
October 1779
Maeve Kane (24:01):
I have written to Col. [John] Butler and my
brother [Joseph Brant]acquainting them with my
situation, desiring theiradvice, as I was left no
directions concerning myself andfamily. I have been promised by
Col. [Guy] Johnson at Montreal,that I should hear from the
Gen’l [Haldimand] and have hisdirection in order to be
provided at whatever place mylittle service should be wanted
which you know I am always readyto do. The Indians are a good
(24:24):
deal dissatisfied on acct of theCol[onel] [Johnson’s] hasty
temper, which I hope he willsoon drop. Otherwise it may be
disadvantageous. I need not tellyou that whatever is promised or
told them it ought to beperformed.
Those from Canada [Kahnawake andAkwesasne] are most dissatisfied
on account of [Johnson’s] takingmore note of those that are
(24:45):
suspected [of being disloyal,eg, American-allied Oneida and
Tuscarora] than them that areknown to be Loyal
[British-allied Mohawk, Seneca,Onondaga, and Cayuga]. I tell
this only to you that you advisehim on that head.
Kathryn Gehred (25:00):
First off, this is just a very well written
letter. I think she gets rightto the point. She's making her
point very clearly when shetalks at the beginning. It does
seem what she says, whateverplace my little service should
be wanted. When she says herlittle service is she sort of
being intentionally modest here.How would you interpret that
(25:20):
line?
Unknown (25:21):
Yeah I think it's really strategic in a couple of
ways. You see this in whitewomen's letters of the 18th
century. Molly Brant, she wasresponsible for hosting dinners
and parties at Johnson Hallduring William Johnson's
lifetime. So she's reallyfamiliar with the British
expectations for etiquette forwomen. She's familiar with that.
And you see this kind ofstrategic modesty in white
(25:41):
women's letters too, I think.But there's also a strain of
Haudenosaunee rhetoric. PaulWilliams is an Onondaga attorney
who's written a lot on this, butthere's this deployment of
modesty and humility inHaudenosaunee oration in the
18th century, in rhetoric oflike how you present yourself
that always positions thespeaker as humble, modest and
(26:06):
not overstepping their ownauthority or their own
knowledge. And I think she'skind of walking on both of those
lines of the Haudenosauneetraditions of rhetoric and
English expectations of kind ofwomen's modesty in both those
places.
Kathryn Gehred (26:19):
Because when she gets into sort of the meat of
the letter. She does say, I neednot tell you that whatever is
promised or told them it oughtto be performed.
Unknown (26:25):
Molly Brant and Claus seem to have had a fairly warm
working relationship. She's hismother in law, and he has his
own by this point, more than 15years service as a translator to
the Mohawk as a diplomat,negotiator. So I think what's
going on in this is he knowswhat the situation is, but she's
laying out her directions aslike his mother in law as a more
(26:45):
seasoned diplomat, how are theygoing to approach Haldaman
together? And like, here's howshe wants to see him position
this.
Kathryn Gehred (26:53):
When she says otherwise, it may be
disadvantageous. Is she sayingthat the British allied groups
might cease to be allies? Isthat sort of what she's
threatening here?
Unknown (27:01):
Yeah there's another point. It's not in a letter by
her, in one of Claus's letters,where he reports that Guy
Johnson told Joseph Brant'speople to go hunt to provide
themselves with shoes, that GuyJohnson wasn't going to pay for
him, and that Molly Brant saidin response, if you tell my
brothers people to go hunt fortheir own shoes, they will soon
(27:22):
forget the war. So I think it'snot like a threat that they'll
join the Americans, but thatthey will no longer cease
working in the British interestas allies as they had been.
Kathryn Gehred (27:33):
Just give people shoes.
Maeve Kane (27:34):
Yeah, Guy Johnson is kind of a jerk.
Kathryn Gehred (27:36):
Yeah.
Maeve Kane (27:37):
Maybe not as messy, but like, yeah, he's not a great
guy.
Who is Guy Johnson again?
Unknown (27:42):
Guy Johsnon is another one of Molly Brant's son in
laws. Okay, so when WilliamJohnson died in 1774 Guy Johnson
was, at that point, married toJohnson's youngest daughter by
Catherine Weisenberg, and GuyJohnson is the one who takes
over William Johnson's job assuperintendent of Indian
Affairs, and he, like, kickedMolly out of her house.
Kathryn Gehred (28:03):
Oh, my God.
Maeve Kane (28:04):
Basically, as soon as William Johnson died, they do
not seem to have had a goodrelationship. And in the second
letter comes up a little bitmore. But by late 1781 guy,
Johnson lost his job asSuperintendent of Indian Affairs
because he was suspected ofembezzling. So he's refusing, on
the one hand, to provide shoesto these very important allies
(28:24):
like Joseph Brant's people hadbeen incredibly important
throughout the war, and Johnsonis like, No, I'm not going to
pay for shoes. And then, on theother hand, he's dipping into
royal funds for the war. He'snever convicted, but he gets
kicked out of his job forembezzlement.
Kathryn Gehred (28:40):
Classic
Maeve Kane (28:41):
Yeah.
Kathryn Gehred (28:42):
The only other thing that stuck out to me from
this letter is that herdiplomatic advice is
essentially, don't lie to us,like stop lying to us and don't
make false promises, becausethat's bad treatment of your
allies. Just from my limitedknowledge, into indigenous and
colonial relations, that seemslike it's a theme. White
colonists keep making promisesand not keeping them.
Unknown (29:03):
Yeah and I think this is especially like, this letter
is more it's not addressed toFrederick Haldeman, but it's
about educating Haldeman as he'snewly arrived governor and
commander of the British inNorth America. It's written to
Klaus, but it's aimed ateducating Haldeman on like how
you do diplomacy, and you cansee that in that bit, keep the
(29:23):
promises that are made. GuyJohnson is not keeping those
promises, even though he hasthis long relationship with the
Mohawk.
Kathryn Gehred (29:30):
Huh. All right, so we've got another letter.
This one's written a coupleyears later. I'll go ahead and
read this one.
Molly Brant to Daniel Claus,Carleton Island, 12 April 1781
It touched me very sore to hearfrom Niagara how my younger
brother Joseph Brant was usedthe 6th of April, by being
almost murdered by Col Johnsonspeople, what adds to my grief
(29:53):
and vexation is that beingscarce returned safe from the
rebel country, he must be thustreated by those of the kings
people who always stay quietlyat home and in the fort, while
my brother continually exposeshis life in going against the
enemy taking prisoners etc asfar as in his power. This usage
of my brothers makes me dreadthe consequences, as some of the
(30:15):
Six Nations were spectators ofit, and well remember what Genl
[Philip] Schuyler told them[Oneidas] that they would be ill
used and despised by the Kingspeople for their services, of
which they have now a proof forwhich reason I entreat his
excellency General Haldimand touse his authority and settle
this matter. It is hard for meto have an only brother whom I
(30:37):
dearly love to see him thustreated, but what I am most
concerned about is that it mayaffect the Kings Indian
interest. The whole matter is,that the officers at Niagara are
so haughty and proud, notknowing or considering that the
King’s interest is so nearlyconnected with that of the
Indians.
(30:58):
That last sentence, it justseems like this is sort of the
summary of almost all of Britishrelations with indigenous
people. Is like the fate of yourmilitary mission is really tied
with relationship with NativeAmerican people on the
continent. And I think that thatjust seems to be the lesson that
everybody just keeps forgettingover and over again. Do you
Unknown (31:16):
Indian diplomacy was a professional space. And what
think that's fair?
I mean, that seems like sort ofspecifically British and
Molly Brant is dealing with isshe's a professional and she's
masculine kind of haughtiness,of like I can enter space and
dealing with people who aren'tprofessionals, these newly
I've been given this militaryposition, so therefore I know
arrived British officers whothink that they know what's
going on and they don't. Mycolleague, Alyssa Mount
everything, and then justcompletely without even
Pleasant, she's a Tuscarorahistorian, and she calls this
(31:36):
illiteracy in the language ofdiplomacy. And I think that's a
realizing it, just messing up.Yeah, but to get back to the
really interesting way oflooking at this, of like these
British officers are moving intospace, but they just have no
concept that they don't evenknow what they don't know.
(32:06):
content of the letter, what'sshe referencing here about the
sixth of April?
Maeve Kane (32:10):
So I don't actually know.
Kathryn Gehred (32:12):
Oh, okay.
Maeve Kane (32:13):
Joseph Brant's people in late March and early
April had been preparing toattack the Oneida. The Oneida at
this point are allied with theAmericans, and Brant's people
were preparing a raid, but theyget called back from it, and by
the eighth of April, Guy Johnsongives orders for Joseph Brant's
people instead to go to FortDetroit, so quite a ways away. I
(32:37):
don't know what happened on thesixth of April, but it seems to
have been in this moment wherethey're called back from this
attack on the Oneida and thensent very far west. I'm not
sure, like it seems from this,that it might have been like a
friendly fire situation or somekind of situation where they
were put in danger as a resultof being called back. But I just
don't know, GuyJohnson andJoseph Brandt never got along.
(33:01):
That relationship deterioratedover the course of the war
because he's a jerk, becausehe's not paying for shoes. But I
have no idea what happened onthe sixth of April.
Kathryn Gehred (33:10):
When she says general Philip Skyler told the
Oneidas that they would be ill,used and despised by the king's
people. Could you tell me alittle bit more about what's
going on there?
Unknown (33:18):
Philip Schuyler had literally called it a plantation
in the Saratoga area. He'sliving part time in Saratoga and
part time in Albany, and he wasthe major point of diplomatic
contact between the Continentalsand the Oneida. He made
overtures to some of the otherSix Nations, including the
Mohawk but the Oneida were theones that he was able to
convince to ally with theAmericans. Because the Oneida,
(33:41):
for a long time, beginning inthe Seven Years' War period, had
been kind of dissatisfied withJohnson. They had felt that
Johnson kind of favored theMohawk over their interests.
They were dissatisfied with kindof how Johnson protected their
land holding, and the Oneidaultimately allied with the
Continental Army, or theAmericans, because they believed
(34:02):
that it was the best way tosecure their own lands. So
Skyler was really instrumentalin cementing that relationship,
likewise, with the Tuscarora whoallied with the Americans, but
Skyler was also the primaryarchitect of the Sullivan
Clinton Campaign that burnedOnondaga, Cuyuga, Seneca
territory. So early in the war,he was very invested in trying
(34:24):
to keep the Six Nations who werenot allied with the Americans
neutral, at the very least. Andthen later in the war, like he
uses this knowledge of diplomacyagainst the Six Nations who ally
with the British.
Kathryn Gehred (34:37):
And again, she sort of talks about her own
concerns about her brother andher brother possibly dying, but
then she says what I'm mostconcerned about is how it may
affect the King's Indianinterests. So that, again, seems
like pretty clear diplomacy tome. How would you describe what
she's trying to accomplishthere?
Unknown (34:53):
I think it's another one of these deployments of
female concern, like familialconcern there with her. Concern
for her brother, Joseph. She'sgot almost 30 years of
experience as a diplomat. By thepoint of the American
Revolution, she's got way moreexperience than these British
officers at Niagara andespecially thinking about that
last couple of years from likeSaratoga through the Sullivan
(35:15):
Clinton campaign in the winterof 1779 underlining This is
going very badly for theBritish, and they need these
allies.
Kathryn Gehred (35:24):
Molly Brant being such a professional
diplomat, but it comes acrosssort of being so respectful to
these people who are giving herand her people such little
respect. And it just makes mefrustrated when I read it, but
she's doing an excellent job.She's doing an incredible job.
But it's one of those thingslike, the more you learn about
American history, the more youjust get angry. Sometimes, angry
sometimes. Yeah, so from all ofyour research into Molly Brant,
(35:46):
do you feel like you have anunderstanding of what she was
like as a person and herpersonality? I know that's a
really tough question.
Unknown (35:50):
I feel like I have an understanding of her as a
Kathryn Gehred (35:51):
That's fascinating.
professional. I don't feel likeI have an understanding of her
as a person. These are the onlytwo letters that I know of that
are written by her. I'll behonest, I'm not even sure if
they were written by her. Ifthey were dictated by her,
they're in it a copy book in thehand of other people. I think
(36:11):
she was literate. There's areference that she wrote to her
brother, Joseph Brant atdifferent points in Mohawk and
Maeve Kane (36:16):
There's so much stuff about her, like that
like housekeeping in thisperiod, especially a large house
like Johnson Hall or FortJohnson needed numeracy and
literacy, so I think that shewas probably literate in English
and Mohawk, but we don't forsure have a letter in her hand.
So the other piece of how, how Iunderstand her as a person, is
(36:36):
you get these little glimpses ofher diplomatic negotiations,
separate from the diplomaticnegotiations of her husband
William Johnson, where we don'thave her own letters on this,
but we get like these secondhand reports through Johnson and
his descriptions sometimes ofwhat she's doing. And one of
these instances that I findreally interesting was during
(36:57):
the early 1760s, late in theFrench and Indian War. There's
this instance where this Britishofficer, I think he was a
lieutenant, had a son with aSeneca woman, and he had been
stationed out in Senecaterritory in what's now far
western New York. And then theBritish lieutenant was recalled.
He was stationed somewhere else,no longer in Seneca territory,
apocryphal story of her on thehorse, and she's so beautiful
(37:18):
and he wanted to take his sonwith him, and his Seneca wife
just basically disappeared withthe kid and said, No, you're not
going to take my son. Because inHaudenosaunee, frameworks of
family, children are part of thewife's family, part of the
mother's family. They get theirclan and their national
belonging through their mother'sline, and not their father. And
(37:40):
divorce seems to have beenpretty easy for Haudenosaunee
families, just a matter ofsocial separation, but the
and whatever, that's so verylike, steeped in this tradition
British officer had no frameworkfor this. He was really upset by
this, and kept writing Johnsonletters of like, help me get my
son back, and trying to getJohnson to intervene in this.
And Johnson kept deferring toMolly, of like, she'll make
(38:01):
inquiries on your behalf, andshe'll do this and that, and she
does seem to have done that, butthe last letter on it was
Johnson reported that Molly saidthat the Seneca wife's decision
was final and that she wouldn'tbe further pursuing it. And I
think that it shows that MollyBrant has her own diplomatic
connections, separate from herhusband. That she has these
(38:23):
connections to pursue thisSeneca Nation is a separate
nation from Mohawk Nation, evenif they're in the Haudenosaunee
Confederacy. So she has her owndiplomatic connections, and
she's willing to at least usethem to make connections on
behalf of this British officer,but that she's still working
within Haudenosaunee frameworksof family, that what the Seneca
(38:45):
mother, what her decision on thecustody of that child was, was
ultimately about Senecaframeworks of family, and Molly
Brant prioritized those.
(39:09):
of describing Indian women aslike these sexually available
beauties who are interested inmarrying white men, it's hard to
get a sense of her as a personthrough that lens. Other people
write about her in her laterlife as like this very gracious
hostess, both at Johnson Hallduring Johnson's lifetime and
later when she's living as awidow in Canada. And they write
(39:32):
about her as this very gracioushostess who blends English
manners with Haudenosauneediplomacy. You get a sense of
her in that and she seems tohave been a very devoted mother
to her own children, to her stepdaughters by Johnson, but
there's not a lot of her you getthese strategic deployments in
(39:52):
these letters to Claus. She'svery professional and on top of
her stuff, but that doesn't tellyou what somebody is like a
person, especially when being awhite woman, looking at her
through this lens of all theseother white people's letters
about her, I don't feel like Ihave a sense of who she is.
Kathryn Gehred (40:11):
And I think that's totally fair. Maybe she
didn't want people to have asense of who she was. Maybe she
gets to keep that and that'sokay. Yeah. What do you think is
the most important thing thatyou want people who listen this
podcast to sort of know orunderstand about Molly Brant's
experience at the AmericanRevolution.
Maeve Kane (40:28):
The American Revolution is really easy to
read as this huge loss forIndigenous women, especially
Indigenous women who are membersof nation, ballied with the
British and Molly Brant isexceptional in some ways because
of her marriage to WilliamJohnson and her family's
diplomatic and politicalprominence, but I think she's
(40:49):
pretty typical in the lossesthat she experienced, that
nighttime rate on her home, theloss of her home, her experience
as a refugee at different pointsin the war. But I think you can
see in her letters that, yes,she experienced those losses,
and yes, she had to deal withGuy Johnson, these British
officers at Niagara who didn'ttake her seriously. But she
(41:12):
never lost her agency. What wedon't see in these letters is
that she is largely successfulin shaping Haldeman's
relationship with the SixNations. Guy Johnson loses his
job. Molly Brant gets a pensionfrom the British government. So
she experiences these loss otherindigenous women, Mohawk,
Oneida, other members of the SixNations, experienced these loss
(41:35):
during the American Revolutionand the post war period
especially was very hard withenormous punitive land losses in
territories that would becomeNew York. But those women and
their nations persisted. Thenations are still here in 2024
and the women like Molly Brantwere able to exercise agency
(41:56):
within that crisis, shape thediplomacy of that period and
shape how their nationsnavigated that crisis. Family
and diplomacy are not alwaysthat separate.
Kathryn Gehred (42:09):
Wow. That was extremely well put.
Maeve Kane (42:12):
Thank you.
Kathryn Gehred (42:12):
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
This has been such a fascinatingconversation.
Maeve Kane (42:17):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Kathryn Gehred (42:19):
So again, this is Dr Maeve Kane, her book is
called Shirts Powdered Red: Haudenosaunee Gender, Trade, and (42:21):
undefined
Exchange, and you should read itimmediately. So I will put links
to everything in the show notes.And for my listeners, I am as
ever, your most obedient andhumble servant. Thank you.
Your Most Obedient & HumbleServant is a production of R2
(42:44):
Studios, part of the RoyRosenzweig Center for History
and New Media at George MasonUniversity. I'm Kathryn Gehred,
the creator and host of thispodcast, Jeanette Patrick and
Jim Ambuske are the executiveproducers. Hayley Madl is our
graduate assistant. Specialthanks to Virginia Humanities
(43:04):
for allowing me to use theirrecording studio. If you enjoyed
this episode, please tell afriend and be sure to rate and
review the series in yourpodcast app. For more great
history podcasts, head tor2studios.org. Thanks for
listening.
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