November 26, 2024 • 39 mins
Mary Wigge joins Kathryn Gehred to discuss a letter from Lucy Flucker Knox to her husband General Henry Knox in which she describes how she spends her days during the Revolutionary War. Lucy, a wealthy Tory's daughter whose parents and siblings fled to England, expresses her loneliness and longing for Henry, who is with the army in Philadelphia.
Wigge is a Research Editor at the Papers of James Madison and was previously an editor with The Papers of Martha Washington and The Papers of George Washington.
Lucy Knox to Henry Knox, Boston, Massachusetts, 23 August 1777. The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History, GLC02437.00638 https://www.gilderlehrman.org/sites/default/files/02437.00638_OS.docx_.pdf.
“Abigail Adams Smith to Abigail Adams, 15 and 22 June 1788,” Founders Online, National Archives, https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Adams/04-08-02-0132.
Lucy Flucker Knox, Silhouette, circa 1790, Silhouette Collection, 1.51, Massachusetts Historical Society, https://www.masshist.org/database/764.
The Pioneer Mothers of America; a record of the more notable women of the early days of the country, and particularly of the colonial and revolutionary periods / by Harry Clinton Green and Mary Wolcott Green v. 2, https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uga1.32108001197717.
Philip Hamilton, The Revolutionary War Lives and Letters of Lucy and Henry Knox (Baltimore, 2017).
Find the official transcript here.
Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant is a production of R2 Studios part of the Roy Rosenzweig Center for History and New Media at George Mason University.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kathryn Gehred (00:00):
This episode of Your Most Obedient & Humble
Servant is supported by the Dr.Scholl Foundation. Hello and
welcome to Your Most Obedient &Humble Servant. This is a
women's history podcast where wefeature 18th and early 19th
century women's letters thatdon't get as much attention as
we think they should. I'm yourhost. Kathryn Gehred belongs.
(00:22):
Long time listeners of thepodcast will recognize today's
guest documentary editor andfriend of the show, Mary Wigge.
I often mention on the show thatI was one of the co-editors of
the Papers of Martha Washington,and Mary was one of the other
co-editors. So Hello Mary.Welcome to the show.
Mary Wigge (00:39):
Hi Katie. It's good to be back.
Kathryn Gehred (00:41):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Mary Wigge (00:42):
Of course
Kathryn Gehred (00:43):
So Mary, tell me what you're currently working
on.
Mary Wigge (00:47):
I'm with the Papers of James Madison, so
specifically working on theSecretary of State Series, and
we are about to publish volume14 of that series. So that time
frame is around 1807 to 1808 sobit later than the letter that
we're going to be discussing.
Kathryn Gehred (01:06):
Gotcha. What's going on with little Jimmy in
1807?
Mary Wigge (01:11):
1807 let's see where to begin. Basically, Napoleon is
taking control and dominatingnearly all of Europe, and
there's no help from GreatBritain. So more and more of
American mercantile ships aregetting impressed, and basically
the US is not getting muchrespect and not getting any
(01:32):
negotiations on their treatiesthat they're attempting.
Kathryn Gehred (01:35):
I've talked about this on the show, but it's
hard to over emphasize how whenyou're working as a documentary
editor, you get this incrediblyin depth knowledge of like, one
year of someone's life. It'shard to explain the level of
knowledge that you end upgetting and then how much of it
is, sort of like you just needto forget, because there's no
use for it. But yeah, you canfeel like you're, like, living
(01:58):
in the year that you're workingon when you get that deep into
it.
Mary Wigge (02:00):
Yeah and I already started working on, at least
assisting in translating acouple of letters from 1808, so
by this point, the Spanish king,King Charles, has abdicated the
throne, and now it's going to goto his son, but then Napoleon
inserts his brother. So I'malready like ahead, and now I've
(02:23):
forgotten everything from 1807.
Kathryn Gehred (02:25):
It's super interesting. I'm glad to bring
you back in I really wanted totalk about a letter from Lucy
Flecker Knox. When peoplementioned what were women doing
in the American RevolutionaryWar, she often comes up as an
example because she and herhusband, General Henry Knox,
kept up this really greatcorrespondence while he was off
(02:47):
doing military things, and shewas at home. And she's an
interesting person. She was afriend of Martha Washington, so
we first sort of came across herwhile we were working on the
Martha volume. I thought thatyour take on Lucy would be
really helpful.
Mary Wigge (03:01):
Hopefully I'm not too harsh on her. I think I have
a better perspective of her nowthan I did when we were working
on the Martha Washingtonletters.
Kathryn Gehred (03:10):
All right, so the letter we're going to be
talking about today is from LucyLucy Flucker Knox, which I'm not
too mature to say that part ofmy obsession with Lucy Flucker
Knox, it's just because hermaiden name is Flucker. I just
did a double take when I sawthat for the first time, and
then I was like, Who is thisperson? And I found out that
she's very interesting. Butyeah, so we're gonna be talking
(03:31):
about a letter from Lucy FluckerKnox to her husband, Henry Knox.
Henry Knox is the Bostonbookstore owner turned commander
of the artillery of theContinental Army. He was also
the Secretary of War from 1785to 1794 so a lot of people know
a lot about Henry Knox, butwho's his wife, Mary? Could you
introduce us to her?
Mary Wigge (03:53):
Everyone welcome to Lucy, who is the middle child of
a very wealthy, opulent Toryfamily. She's the daughter of
Thomas Flucker Senior and HannahWaldo Flucker. These are great
names. She's born in Bostonaround 1756 so when she's
growing up, essentially, she'sliving in a city that's growing
(04:14):
in opposition to British andparliamentary authority. Of
course, it's a bit difficultwith the fact that her father,
Thomas, Sr, is a RoyalProvincial Secretary of
Massachusetts, not to mentionhe's also one of the wealthiest
merchants in Boston. And on topof that, her mother, Hannah, was
(04:35):
the daughter of esteemed BritishBrigadier General Samuel Waldo
that had accumulated a largeestate that later down the line,
Henry and Lucy inherit a portionof it, and it becomes known as
the Waldo Patent, and it's now agood chunk of Maine. So that's
why they move up to Thomaston,Maine after Henry retires from
(04:57):
being the Secretary of War. Kindof like Martha, we don't really
know her education, but it'sclearly substantial. So like you
can assume that Lucy was taughtby maybe tutors, her handwriting
is quite formal and, quitefrankly, much prettier than
Martha Washington's ever was,
Kathryn Gehred (05:18):
And you can see a lot of her handwriting on the
Gilder Lehrman website, I canprobably link to where this
letter is, and you can get alook at it.
Mary Wigge (05:25):
You can tell that she was raised in wealth, luxury
and comfort, essentially. Andthen she meets Henry. So by the
time that she marries Henry,it's 1774 so she's around 18,
maybe 17, and she hardly has anyof her family support, and
actually, her father permits themarriage, but it was was really
(05:46):
thanks to her uncle who comes inand convinces him that Henry
Knox is not such a badcharacter. However, her parents
do not attend the wedding.
Kathryn Gehred (05:55):
Ooh
Mary Wigge (05:56):
Yeah, they, in fact, I don't think she sees them at
her wedding, and they do notvisit afterwards, and then they
move back to England, so I don'tthink she ever sees them after
that. Wow. But her sister andher Aunt Waldo, as it's referred
probably Sarah Irving. Waldoattended her wedding as well as
her uncle Isaac Winslow, and hewalks her down the aisle gives
(06:20):
her away. And so it made methink of you, because it made me
think of John Custis and MarthaWashington trying to convince
him that she wasn't essentiallyjust a gold digger, but
essentially Thomas Flucker Srwas not really thrilled with the
idea of Henry Knox being marriedto his daughter, Henry Knox.
(06:42):
Well, he was a tradesman. He wasan orphaned son. He didn't
really come from means of anykind. He did not have a formal
education.
Kathryn Gehred (06:52):
He was a bookseller.
Mary Wigge (06:53):
He was a bookseller.
Kathryn Gehred (06:54):
And according to one of the old, probably quite
inaccurate articles I read abouthim, he was very handsome and
had a military stance, the waythat they describe all of these
men. Yes, so when I was firsttrying to research her, there's
not a lot of there's a littlebit, but there's not a lot of
academic writing about her. Oneof the early books that talks
about LucyFlucker Knox, it's anexample of the way that women's
(07:18):
history is often written in theearly 1900s it's from the
Pioneer Mothers of America,which, there's a lot of sort of
politics just in the title ofthe book, from the Pioneer
Mothers of America. But this isthe opening quote of the
description of her. There was astir among the daughters and
Dames of Boston town when oneday in 1774 the word was spread
(07:39):
that Lucy Flucker, the prettyand petted daughter of Secretary
Thomas flucker of the RoyalProvince of Massachusetts, had
defied parental authority andmarried Henry Knox, the
bookseller. Not that Henry Knoxwasn't an eligible young man,
good enough for any girl, but hewas in trade. It just cracks me
up. I like the way that that'swritten. It's just, like, so
(08:02):
funny to me. When you startreading a source like that, you
have to have, like, the biggestgrain of salt About everything
in it imaginable, absolutely.
Mary Wigge (08:09):
Oh man, yeah, but it's not far off from what I've
I mean, that's nearly everyother
Kathryn Gehred (08:17):
Yeah, she's not wrong.
Mary Wigge (08:19):
She's not wrong. But it is interesting, because,
okay, so Henry Knox really makesa name for himself, because
first he's working at abookstore under the tutelage and
kind of learning the trade in awell known bookstore in the
heart of Boston, and then heopens his own bookstore, and
he's only 21
Kathryn Gehred (08:39):
Wow.
Mary Wigge (08:39):
Yeah, yeah, he's moving up fast, and he was a
good catch. I would say,
Kathryn Gehred (08:44):
Nice. Well, I'm rooting for them. My other just
brief complaint before we divein, is, if you Google Lucy
Flucker Knox, a lot of picturesshow up that are not of her,
they're of other people. Butthere is a silhouette of her,
which is a little bit harder tofind. Mary, could you describe
what the silhouette of Lucy LucyFlucker Knox looks like?
Mary Wigge (09:06):
It's incredible. She's a bit of the larger side
just from her face expressionand her chest like she's just
very plump, and then her hairstands like at least a foot
high, and then on top of that,you have a ridiculous top hat,
(09:26):
at least from the silhouette.That's how it appears. But it's
great.
Kathryn Gehred (09:30):
It's like make my hair four and a half feet
tall, and then put a full likesnowman top hat on top of it.
Mary Wigge (09:38):
It's so good, so good. I don't want to bash Lucy
at all, as I said, but there isan incredible quote I have to
share this with you, because thefirst thing I did when you asked
me to, like, revisit Lucy andHenry Knox, I just went through
will Rotunda and Founders Onlineand look at the other papers to
(09:59):
see. What had been written abouther, if there was any mention of
the Knox's, and specifically ofLucy. And this one's incredible,
and it's bit harsh, but it'sincredible. So it's Abigail
Adams Smith to Abigail Adams,and this is in 1788 so she says,
(10:19):
"General and Mrs. Knox have beenvery polite and attentive to us.
Mrs. Knox is much altered fromthe character she used to have.
She is neat in her dress,attentive to her family, and
very fond of her children. Buther size is enormous. I'm
frightened when I look at her. Iverily believe that her waist is
as large as three of yours, atleast." I burst out laughing.
Kathryn Gehred (10:43):
Abigail!
Mary Wigge (10:44):
It was so mean. I couldn't believe it. I was I had
never actually read such a harshcritique of another woman. I was
both surprised and a bitstunned.
Kathryn Gehred (10:55):
All right, well, I'm gonna come here in defense
of Lucy Flucker Knox, she had ahard youth, and she could be as
big as she wants, Abigail Adams.Come on!
Mary Wigge (11:04):
You know what? Also I didn't even mention, it does
not get any easier immediatelyafter they marry, because, like,
consider they get married in1774 and then the next year is
the beginning of the AmericanRevolution, and then her primary
family leaves, just leavesBoston, goes back across the
(11:24):
ocean to London, and her husbandleaves to go fight against the
British. So she's left allalone. Not an easy life.
Kathryn Gehred (11:34):
This is a good letter to talk about that for
her. So to get down to thespecifics of this specific
letter. She writes it to HenryKnox, 23rd August, 1777, so at
this point in the AmericanRevolution, Knox, again, I
talked about him. He was abookseller. He was just like
interested in military things.He read a lot about things like
(11:56):
artillery. And from that, he wasactually incredibly talented. I
can see why he's such a popularfigure, because it's sort of
that classic American, notexactly bootstraps, but like he
wasn't born into the top ofBoston Society. He just read a
lot about the military, and thenwhen a war broke out, he was
able to use that knowledgehelpfully. So he sort of
(12:16):
famously proved his medal asartillery commander in the
winter of 1775 to 1776 when hemanaged to transport an insane
amount of heavy weaponry thathad been captured at Fort
Ticonderoga all the way to whereWashington needed it, outside of
Boston, which people didn'tthink was possible. And it just
shows that he was really good atthe side of the military that's
(12:37):
moving things from point A topoint B, which is so important.
So at this exact moment, he'swith Washington in Philadelphia,
and George Washington is tryingdesperately to keep Philadelphia
in American hands. They havejust met the Marquita Lafayette,
who sort of describes this timeperiod in his book. And the
(12:58):
battle of Brandywine has nothappened yet, but will be coming
soon, on September 11. So Knoxis in and around the
Philadelphia area at the timethat she's writing this, where
Lucy is at home in Bostonwriting to him, and at the exact
moment that she writes him onthe Yeah, the 23rd Knox wrote to
(13:18):
Lucy on the 25th that theContinental Army had marched
through Philadelphia on thenight of August 23 so the night
that she wrote this letter andastonished the Tories with their
respectability, but he hadn'tbeen there because he'd been 40
miles away to purchase somethings for my dear, dear Lucy.
So she's talking about being allalone and forgotten, but he was
(13:38):
really thinking about herliterally the exact night that
she's writing this letter, whichI thought was kind of cute.
Mary Wigge (13:43):
It is cute. I should also add that most recently also
is the loss of Fort Ticonderoga,but also the Saratoga Campaign,
in which the American forcesdefeat the British forces under
General John Burgoyne. So it'sboth a medley of some losses,
(14:05):
some wins. I should alsomention, with a little research
earlier, I want to say, like inthe spring of '77 Lucy and her
daughter get inoculated fromsmallpox because she was
starting to hear that it wasspreading, especially in the
military encampments, and she'sdesperately always trying to go
(14:27):
visit Henry, or at least havehim come home. She's dying to
see him.
Kathryn Gehred (14:32):
That's good. It's smart to get the smallpox
inoculation.
Mary Wigge (14:35):
And then around also this time, I believe she's
maintaining home and child. Ithink they just have one girl at
this point, Lucy, Lucy junior, Iguess we could call her. She's
also trying to assume control ofher parents' Boston house and
property, because it was aroundthis time that Continental
Congress were trying to acquireany property owned by well.
(15:00):
Tories and loyalists, and sothey're trying to assume that
property, rather than it goingto the forces.
Kathryn Gehred (15:07):
Great. All right, I think, I think we've
set things up fairly nicely.Anything else you wanted to let
people know before we jump intothe letter?
Mary Wigge (15:14):
I just thought the timing was interesting, and I
think it'll come into play withthis letter. But you gave a
great description of Henry Knoxgains his mettle with bringing
the British cannon down fromFort Ticonderoga, from what I
was reading, the timing of thatso they position it on
Dorchester Heights, so aroundBoston, pointing into the city.
(15:38):
And that's partially, well,mainly what causes the British
fleet to depart and leaveimmediately, but that's also
when Lucy's mom and her twosisters and her brother depart
as well.
Kathryn Gehred (15:52):
Oh, wow.
Mary Wigge (15:54):
This was almost like Henry.
Kathryn Gehred (15:56):
Oh no.
Mary Wigge (15:57):
We didn't see that outcome. But
Kathryn Gehred (15:59):
Have you ever wanted to point a bunch of
cannons at your in-laws? Henrylived the dream.
Mary Wigge (16:05):
Man, Lucy will not let him forget it.
Kathryn Gehred (16:09):
Okay, all right, I'm gonna go ahead and read the
letter.
Boston August 23rd 1777 MyDearest Friend,
I wrote you a line by the lastpost just to lett you know I was
alive which indeed was all Icould then say with propriety
for I had serious thoughts thatI never should see you again, so
(16:29):
much was I reduced by only fourdays illness. But by help of a
good constitution I amsurprisingly better today. I am
now to answer your three lastletters. In one of which you ask
for a history of my life. It is,my love, so barren of
adventures, and so replete withrepetition that I fear it will
afford you little amusement.However, such as it is, I give
(16:52):
it you. In the first place, Irise about eight in the morning
(a lazy hour you will say – butthe day after that, is full long
for a person in my situation) Ipresently after sitt down to my
breakfast, where a page in mybook, and a dish of tea, employ
me alternately for about anhour. When after seeing that
family matters go on right, Irepair to my work, my book, or
(17:14):
my pen, for the rest of theforenoon. At two o’clock I
usually take my solitary dinnerwhere I reflect upon my past
happiness when I used to sitt atthe window watching for my Harry
– and when I saw him coming myheart would leap for joy – when
he was all my own and neverhappy from me. When the bare
thought of six months absencewould have shocked him. To
(17:37):
divert these ideas I place mylittle Lucy by me at table. But
the more engaging her littleactions are, so much the more do
I regret the absence of herfather who would take such
delight in them. In theafternoon I commonly take my
chaise, and ride into thecountry or go to drink tea with
one of my few [struck: acquaintance] [inserted: (17:54):
undefined
friends]. They consist of MrsJarviss Mrs Sears Mrs Smith Mrs
Pollard and my Aunt Waldo – Ihave many acquaintance beside
these whom I visit but notwithout ceremony. when with any
(18:14):
of the former I often spend theevening, but when I return home…
how shall describe my feelingsto find myself intirely alone.
To reflect that the only friendI have in the world is at such
an imense distance from me – tothink that he may be sick and I
cannot assist him. ah poor me myheart is ready to burst, you who
(18:34):
know what a trifle would make meunhappy, can conceive what I
suffer now. – When I seriouslyreflect that I have lost my
father Mother Brother andSisters – intirely lost them – I
am half distracted. True Ichearfully resigned them for one
far dearer to me than all ofthem – but I am totaly deprived
of him – I have not seen him foralmost six months – and he
(18:58):
writes me without pointing outany method by which I may ever
expect to see him again – tishard my Harry indeed it is. I
love you with the tenderest, thepurest affection – I would
undergo any hardships to be nearyou and you will not lett me –
suppose this campaign should belike the last carried into the
winter – do you intend not tosee me in all that time? – tell
(19:20):
me dear what your plan is – Iwrote you that the Hero Sailed
while I was at Newburg – She didbut has been cruiseing about
from harbour to harbour since –to get met – she is now here,
and will sail in a day or twofor france. I wish I had fifty
guinies to spare to send by herfor necessarys – but I have not
– the very little gold we havemust be reserved for my Love in
(19:42):
case he should be taken – forfriends in such a case are not
too common. – I am moredistressed from the hott weather
than any other fears – God grantyou may not go farther south’ard
– if you should I possitivelywill come too – I believe Genl
Howe is a paltry fellow – buthappy for as that he is so – Are
you not much pleased with thenews from the Northard? We think
(20:05):
it is a great affair and aconfirmation of St. Clairs
villainy baseness – I hope hewill not go unpunished – we hear
also that Genl Gates is to goback to his command. – if so
Master Schuyler, cannot beguiltless – it is very strange,
you never mentioned that affairin any of your letters – What
has become of Mrs Greene, do youall live together – or how do
(20:26):
you manage – is Billy to remainwith you payless or is he to
have a commission? – if theformer I think he had much
better remained where he was –if he understood business he
might without a capital havemade a fortune – people here –
without advanceing a shillingfrequently clear hundreds in a
day – such chaps as Eben Oliverare all men of fortune – while
(20:48):
persons who have ever lived inaffluence are in danger of want.
oh that you had less of themilitary man about you – you
might then after the war havelived at ease all the days of
your life. But now I don't knowwhat you will do, your being
long acustomed to command willmake you too haughty for
mercantile matters. tho I hopeyou will not consider yourself
as commander in chief of yourown house – but be convinced,
(21:12):
tho not in the affair of MrCoudre, that there is such a
thing as equal command. I sendthis by Capt. Randal who says he
expects to remain with you. prayhow many of these lads have you
– I am sure they must be veryexpensive – I am in want of some
square dollars – which I expectfrom you to buy me a peace of
linen, an article I can do nolonger without haveing had no
(21:34):
recruit of that kind for almostfive years. girls in general
when they marry are well stockedwith those things but poor I had
no such advantage – little Lucywho is without exception the
sweetest child in the worldsends you a kiss, “but where
shall I take it from?” say you –from the paper I hope – but dare
I say I sometimes fear that along absence the force of bad
(21:57):
example may lead you to forgetme at sometimes. To know that it
ever gave you pleasure to be incompany with the finest woman in
the world, would be worse thandeath to me – but it is not so,
my Harry is too just, toodelicate, too sincere – and too
fond of his Lucy to admit themost remote thought of that
distracting kind –away with it –don't be angry with me my Love –
(22:21):
I am not jealous of youaffection – I love you with a
love as true and sacred as everentered the human heart – but
from a diffidence of my ownmerit I sometimes fear you will
Love me less – after being solong from me – if you should may
my life end before I know it –that I may die thinking you
wholly mine – Adieu my love -L
(22:42):
Okay, so this is such a goodletter, I saw it's a draft. So I
wonder if some of these sort ofstream of thought, stream of
consciousness sections gotstuck, like some of the parts
where she's like, please don'tcheat on me. Please don't cheat
on me. I wonder if she cut someof those in the final actual
letter. Do you have any ideaabout that?
Mary Wigge (23:03):
I don't. I love seeing like the words that were
struck out and then replaced,like what's softer or what's
stronger than what I want touse. Yeah, but she doesn't seem
to have her mind made up whetherto be angry, or at least, dare I
say, passive aggressive with himto say, I need you around, but I
(23:24):
want to be with you. I want tobe with you, but I also love
you, but also I pulled myselfaway from my family for you, but
also I love you, decide one orthe other. Yeah. I'm curious
what that final draft would looklike.
Kathryn Gehred (23:38):
Yeah. I love everything about this. I love
how well written it is. I lovehow funny she is. I love her
little news. The thing that gotme to pick this one is her
little bit about how she spendsher day, because I feel like
that's sort of an insight into awell off Boston lady that you
don't always get to see when shetalks about being entirely
(24:00):
alone. I can't believe she'sactually entirely alone, if
she's just able to, just likeshe sleeps till eight. I'm like,
who's taking care of your littleLucy now that I have a kid, but
that's my first thought withthis is you get to have a sit
down with a dish of tea andwrite for several hours.
Mary Wigge (24:16):
I know it's like from eight. And then she really
says, like from two o'clock PM.I'm like, What are you doing?
You have a child. Don't you havea house to manage well?
Kathryn Gehred (24:27):
And so it seems like other people are doing it.
But then she keeps emphasizing,I'm entirely alone. I'm like,
don't you have a maid that youchat with, or anything? Or
that's not worth mentioning inthe letter.
Mary Wigge (24:37):
I know she names quite a number of friends, or,
as she said, first acquaintancesand then friends. They all seem
like they are based in Boston.Their husbands are very likely
acquainted with Henry. That'squite a few people to go see
every now and again. I'm veryimpressed with what is she doing
(24:58):
with her time?
Kathryn Gehred (24:59):
Yeah, it's. A little insight into the Boston
wealthy class. I like when shetalks about how she used to just
sit waiting for her Harry tocome visit like that is cute.
That's a cute little scene,
Mary Wigge (25:12):
it is, but it's another kind of dig at Henry.
She's just digging. And I likehow she does that. That's what I
remember from her days at MarthaWashington Papers, we had to go
looking through Lucy and HenryKnox letters, because by the
time that Battle of Yorktowncomes around, she's at Mount
(25:34):
Vernon. And also, as youremember, that's when Martha's
son John Parke Custis, dies. Soboth Henry and Lucy are well
aware of this and trying to talkabout how they should probably
leave out of respect for thisfamily that is in mourning and
sorrow, but they're still likethis playful language and Lucy
(25:55):
uses, and you can just tell thatshe has a lot of sass and
intelligence, yeah. But she'salso possibly jealous of anyone
else who's around her, Henry,yeah.
Kathryn Gehred (26:07):
And I think the little bit where she says, You
who know what a trifle wouldmake me unhappy, can conceive
what I suffer now. So she'steasing herself a little bit.
She's like, you know, I used tobe sad at a trifle, and now I
have real things to be sadabout, and then she goes into
like, what she really is sadabout the fact that she's
entirely lost her father,mother, brother and sisters, and
that's rough. These familydynamics are so complicated in
(26:31):
the American Revolution.
Mary Wigge (26:32):
Yeah it gets very, very hard. And I think she has
an aunt, as I mentioned before,who attends her wedding, who's I
think, mentioned here? Yeah, heraunt Waldo, who she can see, but
from this collection of Henryand Lucy Knox letters, it
includes a couple of letterswritten to her mother and even
(26:54):
to her sister, just trying toreach out, trying to correspond,
and she's not getting any wordback. It's really hard and sad.
She's very playful in herlanguage, and I do think that
she's uncertain how to betowards Henry. It's rather
apparent that, of course, shemisses him terribly, but she
also seems a bit well steamed.
Kathryn Gehred (27:15):
Yes, this next paragraph, in particular, when
she goes from being legitimatelysad. I've lost my father,
mother, brother and sistersentirely. Lost them. I'm half
distracted, and then she's likeI cheerfully resigned them for
one far dearer to me than all ofthem, but now I'm totally
deprived man. It's like I've notseen him for six months, and he
(27:37):
writes to me without pointingout any myth. It's just like she
is going through it, and she'swriting it as she feels it, but
it's still well written. And shesays, I would undergo any
hardship to be near you, and youwill not let me like oof,
beautiful. But this alsoprovides an insight into the
American Revolution that we seea lot in these letters from
(27:57):
women, that I think peoplesometimes forget is that there
were so many women travelingaround with these armies. She
wants to be there because thereare other women there. She's
asking if Nathaniel Greene'swife is there. These winter
encampments had a lot ofofficers wives there, all of
these sort of people. Imagine,you know, the traveling army and
to be almost entirely male, butthere were always lots of women
(28:21):
there. So to leave them out isnot telling the whole story.
Mary Wigge (28:26):
And it's interesting because Henry Knox is really
descriptive to Lucy about anumber of the battles, and that
includes, like, the Battle ofTrenton, the Battle of
Princeton. So like, rememberCrossing the Delaware, but he's
so descriptive to her aboutthese and you can tell that he
wishes she's there, but he alsodoesn't want her to be there, to
be in any harms way. But thenshe comes back with one
(28:48):
particular letter when she's atMount Vernon. This is later in
1781, well, Martha Washingtonand John Parke Custis, his wife,
received their letters fromtheir husband saying that they
can come to the winterencampments. Where's my letter?
I still haven't heard from you.When can I come see you? I mean,
like this was like another formof community. But most
(29:10):
importantly, this is like forher to be with her husband. I
don't think she really startstraveling to winter encampments
until around 1778 so there is aton of traveling. You're right.
Kathryn Gehred (29:22):
My other point, I might have made this a million
times before, but when thistier, like the officers wives,
like the generals, wives, aregoing to a winter encampment,
travel is tough and all of that.But when they're in these
headquarters, they're in thebiggest, fanciest house they
could find. Oh yeah, they arehaving parties. They are
socializing. And yes, there isabsolutely risk. There's totally
(29:45):
risk. For these women that aretraveling with these armies,
there's a reason that she wantsto go. She's not gonna go there
and be like horrified by scenesof terrible war, necessarily.
She's a little bit shielded fromthat. So for her, it really is.
She just wants to see Henry.
Mary Wigge (29:58):
It is interesting, though. Of around this
particular time, if not evenearlier, in 1776 Henry is
writing asking her to send himthings she knows she's supposed
to bring, all these items,sheets or bedding and spoons,
like all the utensils,everything for an actual
(30:19):
legitimate house during winterencampments, not to mention, as
you were talking about, all thehosting that just That's a lot.
Kathryn Gehred (30:27):
Back to the letter, where she talks about, I
wish I had 50 guineas to spare.And then she says, the very
little gold we have must bereserved for my love in case he
should be taken. So is shetalking about paying off like, a
bail, like, if he is captured asa prisoner of war so she can,
like, get him out. Is that whatshe's talking about?
Mary Wigge (30:44):
That's how I interpreted it, and it was
pretty common. But I mean, itdoes also just sound like money
is getting hard to come by, andin the brief other letters that
I was reading of theircorrespondence, or other
correspondence that they havearound this time frame. She's
like, this particular item thatyou're asking or food stuff that
(31:06):
you're asking for. It doesn'tjust come out of thin air. It's
very expensive. I can't just goand try to find this for you,
but it is becoming a bit of moreof a trying time. I mean, it's a
hard economy during war time.
Kathryn Gehred (31:19):
Yeah she's not war profiteering like Abigail.
No, although maybe she is, she'sshe does talk about like, who's
making a fortune down here? Thatpart surprised me. Yeah, we have
to throw in the feminist quotethat gets cited quite a bit,
where she says, Your being longaccustomed to command will make
you too haughty for mercantilematters, though, I hope you will
(31:40):
not consider yourself ascommander in chief of your own
house. There is such a thing asequal command. Like snaps, snaps
to Lucy.
Mary Wigge (31:49):
It's fantastic. But even before reading that, I
mean, just from a general senseof reading some of Lucy and
Henry Knox's letters, I waslike, Yeah, that sounds like her
personality. Yeah, she's notgoing to get walked over. No,
she's not going to take any ofthat. That just made sense to
me. I'm like, Yeah, of course.
Kathryn Gehred (32:10):
He's not going to be commander in chief of his
own house.
Mary Wigge (32:13):
No, no,
Kathryn Gehred (32:16):
Let's see. Oh yeah. When she says, girls in
general, when they marry, arewell stocked with those things.
But poor, I had no suchadvantage. That is some passive
aggression. That's not evenhiding the passive aggression,
no. Poor, I had no suchadvantage.
Mary Wigge (32:32):
She doesn't let him forget at all. And it just seems
like, Oh, poor Henry, but likeyou understand her
circumstances,
Kathryn Gehred (32:41):
To lose touch with her whole family for him,
yeah, I'd completely understand.
Mary Wigge (32:47):
And again, I think because when we first started
looking through Henry and LucyKnox correspondence, I think
what I never really picked upwas just how young they were at
this time frame, Martha GeorgeWashington are like, 25 years
their senior? Yeah, she's stilllike 21 right now?
Kathryn Gehred (33:06):
Yeah, this reads like a 21 year old letter,
right? She should be at theclub.
Mary Wigge (33:10):
She totally would. She's bored, well, not bored,
but she's lonely, and she reallywants to be with her husband,
but like, they're going throughthe most difficult time frame,
arguably in American history,but also probably for their
marriage, because this is gonnacontinue for the next five, six
years.
Kathryn Gehred (33:28):
That is a really great point to bring up, that
these are very young people,yeah, and I'll hear a little bit
about kissing the paper at theend. Is cute whenever somebody
writes like, but what will yousay? Where shall I take it from
that always made me laugh. Andthen just like, five or six
sentences of just like, I knowthere's women there, and if you
(33:49):
should made my life and before Iknow it, I love that. She's
like, maybe, maybe you are, youknow, not being faithful, but do
not let me know
Mary Wigge (33:57):
There's a level of self doubt that I was reading in
this last paragraph, she's like,I am not jealous of your
affection. I love you truly andso forth with a pure heart. But
I would die if you said that youhad been in the company of the
finest woman in the world. Iinterpreted that as a completely
different other woman, yes, yes.She seems to be again, all over
(34:19):
the place, emotionally on thatfront, or at least how I
perceive it as like a sense ofself doubt. And I mean, she's in
the blind. She has no ideawhat's going on here so
Kathryn Gehred (34:31):
And again, I don't know how much of this last
paragraph made it into theactual letter that she sent him,
right and in real life, thenight she is writing this, he is
40 miles away from where theaction is, buying her something
which I think is great,
Mary Wigge (34:45):
Like all this doubt that she has turns out to be for
no reason purpose.
Kathryn Gehred (34:51):
I mean, I don't know. They didn't write things
down. Maybe, maybe it was
Mary Wigge (34:54):
That's very fair. Maybe she had real reason to be
suspicious.
Kathryn Gehred (34:59):
What I like about this letter is it does
feel so real and honest abouther feelings, and it's this
little window into her life,even describing what she does
during a day and how she talksabout her daughter. And so I can
see why teachers assign thisletter a lot when they're
talking about what life was likefor women during the revolution,
but I will say again that thisis the life of a very high class
(35:20):
wealthy, married to an officerwoman. So this is not what any
woman was experiencing. This isa very specific white, upper
class woman's experience of therevolution, and she's still
having a tough time. Not sayingshe's not having a tough time,
but just something to keep inmind.
Mary Wigge (35:36):
I think that's a really good point, and I think
that's in the paragraph. Well,she's describing the news about
like General Howe and St.Clair's villainy. She's well
aware of military news andwhat's going on, so at least she
has an idea of what's happeningon the battlefield. And that's
(35:56):
also, as I was mentioning,thanks to some of Henry's
letters, because he's describingthe Battle of Trenton, the
Battle of Princeton, and he doestalk about the surrender at
Yorktown later on in 1781 whichI always thought was really
interesting. She's getting thatfront row seat perspective how
much she really cares about it.I think she does, but I think
(36:20):
she cares a bit more if Henrywere at home and safe, or at
least they were together.
Kathryn Gehred (36:25):
She doesn't strike me as somebody who is
like willingly an officer'swife. She would rather he had
been staying in Boston andmaking money and being right
next to her, I think.
Mary Wigge (36:34):
Yeah, I think she wanted to marry the bookstore
owner. I think my firstimpression of her was a bit
harsh, because I didn'tappreciate where she was coming
from, her family background, howold she was, or really, her
circumstances, really in life,like as a new mom, I bet she's
(36:56):
also constantly questioningeverything she's doing and feels
alone. But my first impression,I would say, I still kind of
uphold of like she's sassy andlike her letters. I don't think
we see this very often, and Ikind of wish we had had an
opportunity with like MarthaWashington. They're so lovey
(37:16):
dovey and filled of romanticmetaphors, but also they're
intelligent, a little passiveaggressive, and a little little
self pity and self doubt therein here, but it makes them more
human. And yeah, this was areally good letter.
Kathryn Gehred (37:30):
That is a really great way to sum it up.
Mary Wigge (37:32):
I think this was a good letter to choose from,
because it shows all forms ofnot just the public sphere, but
also the private sphere thatwere involved that affected
people's lives, especiallyduring the American Revolution,
and especially for militarywives.
Kathryn Gehred (37:51):
Well Mary, thank you so much for joining me on
the podcast and talking aboutthis. This was so much fun.
Mary Wigge (37:56):
This was a fun letter. Thank you.
Kathryn Gehred (37:58):
So for my listeners, I will link to some
of these letters we're talkingabout, we will definitely cite
the book that Mary mentionedusing for research for this. And
I am, as ever, your mostobedient and humble servant.
Thank you very much.
(38:22):
Your Most Obedient & HumbleServant is a production of R2
Studios, part of the RoyRosenzweig Center for History
and New Media at George MasonUniversity. This episode is
supported by the Er. SchollFoundation. I'm Kathryn Gehred,
the creator and host of thispodcast, Jeanette Patrick and
(38:43):
Jim Ambuske are the executiveproducers. Haley Madl is our
graduate assistant. Specialthanks to Virginia Humanities
for allowing me to use theirrecording studio. If you enjoyed
this episode, please tell afriend and be sure to rate and
review the series in yourpodcast app. For more great
(39:05):
history podcasts, head toR2studios.org, thanks for listening.
This episode of Your Most Obedient & Humble
Servant is supported by the Dr.Scholl Foundation. Hello and
welcome to Your Most Obedient &Humble Servant. This is a
women's history podcast where wefeature 18th and early 19th
century women's letters thatdon't get as much attention as
we think they should. I'm yourhost. Kathryn Gehred belongs.
(00:22):
Long time listeners of thepodcast will recognize today's
guest documentary editor andfriend of the show, Mary Wigge.
I often mention on the show thatI was one of the co-editors of
the Papers of Martha Washington,and Mary was one of the other
co-editors. So Hello Mary.Welcome to the show.
Mary Wigge (00:39):
Hi Katie. It's good to be back.
Kathryn Gehred (00:41):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Mary Wigge (00:42):
Of course
Kathryn Gehred (00:43):
So Mary, tell me what you're currently working
on.
Mary Wigge (00:47):
I'm with the Papers of James Madison, so
specifically working on theSecretary of State Series, and
we are about to publish volume14 of that series. So that time
frame is around 1807 to 1808 sobit later than the letter that
we're going to be discussing.
Kathryn Gehred (01:06):
Gotcha. What's going on with little Jimmy in
1807?
Mary Wigge (01:11):
1807 let's see where to begin. Basically, Napoleon is
taking control and dominatingnearly all of Europe, and
there's no help from GreatBritain. So more and more of
American mercantile ships aregetting impressed, and basically
the US is not getting muchrespect and not getting any
(01:32):
negotiations on their treatiesthat they're attempting.
Kathryn Gehred (01:35):
I've talked about this on the show, but it's
hard to over emphasize how whenyou're working as a documentary
editor, you get this incrediblyin depth knowledge of like, one
year of someone's life. It'shard to explain the level of
knowledge that you end upgetting and then how much of it
is, sort of like you just needto forget, because there's no
use for it. But yeah, you canfeel like you're, like, living
(01:58):
in the year that you're workingon when you get that deep into
it.
Mary Wigge (02:00):
Yeah and I already started working on, at least
assisting in translating acouple of letters from 1808, so
by this point, the Spanish king,King Charles, has abdicated the
throne, and now it's going to goto his son, but then Napoleon
inserts his brother. So I'malready like ahead, and now I've
(02:23):
forgotten everything from 1807.
Kathryn Gehred (02:25):
It's super interesting. I'm glad to bring
you back in I really wanted totalk about a letter from Lucy
Flecker Knox. When peoplementioned what were women doing
in the American RevolutionaryWar, she often comes up as an
example because she and herhusband, General Henry Knox,
kept up this really greatcorrespondence while he was off
(02:47):
doing military things, and shewas at home. And she's an
interesting person. She was afriend of Martha Washington, so
we first sort of came across herwhile we were working on the
Martha volume. I thought thatyour take on Lucy would be
really helpful.
Mary Wigge (03:01):
Hopefully I'm not too harsh on her. I think I have
a better perspective of her nowthan I did when we were working
on the Martha Washingtonletters.
Kathryn Gehred (03:10):
All right, so the letter we're going to be
talking about today is from LucyLucy Flucker Knox, which I'm not
too mature to say that part ofmy obsession with Lucy Flucker
Knox, it's just because hermaiden name is Flucker. I just
did a double take when I sawthat for the first time, and
then I was like, Who is thisperson? And I found out that
she's very interesting. Butyeah, so we're gonna be talking
(03:31):
about a letter from Lucy FluckerKnox to her husband, Henry Knox.
Henry Knox is the Bostonbookstore owner turned commander
of the artillery of theContinental Army. He was also
the Secretary of War from 1785to 1794 so a lot of people know
a lot about Henry Knox, butwho's his wife, Mary? Could you
introduce us to her?
Mary Wigge (03:53):
Everyone welcome to Lucy, who is the middle child of
a very wealthy, opulent Toryfamily. She's the daughter of
Thomas Flucker Senior and HannahWaldo Flucker. These are great
names. She's born in Bostonaround 1756 so when she's
growing up, essentially, she'sliving in a city that's growing
(04:14):
in opposition to British andparliamentary authority. Of
course, it's a bit difficultwith the fact that her father,
Thomas, Sr, is a RoyalProvincial Secretary of
Massachusetts, not to mentionhe's also one of the wealthiest
merchants in Boston. And on topof that, her mother, Hannah, was
(04:35):
the daughter of esteemed BritishBrigadier General Samuel Waldo
that had accumulated a largeestate that later down the line,
Henry and Lucy inherit a portionof it, and it becomes known as
the Waldo Patent, and it's now agood chunk of Maine. So that's
why they move up to Thomaston,Maine after Henry retires from
(04:57):
being the Secretary of War. Kindof like Martha, we don't really
know her education, but it'sclearly substantial. So like you
can assume that Lucy was taughtby maybe tutors, her handwriting
is quite formal and, quitefrankly, much prettier than
Martha Washington's ever was,
Kathryn Gehred (05:18):
And you can see a lot of her handwriting on the
Gilder Lehrman website, I canprobably link to where this
letter is, and you can get alook at it.
Mary Wigge (05:25):
You can tell that she was raised in wealth, luxury
and comfort, essentially. Andthen she meets Henry. So by the
time that she marries Henry,it's 1774 so she's around 18,
maybe 17, and she hardly has anyof her family support, and
actually, her father permits themarriage, but it was was really
(05:46):
thanks to her uncle who comes inand convinces him that Henry
Knox is not such a badcharacter. However, her parents
do not attend the wedding.
Kathryn Gehred (05:55):
Ooh
Mary Wigge (05:56):
Yeah, they, in fact, I don't think she sees them at
her wedding, and they do notvisit afterwards, and then they
move back to England, so I don'tthink she ever sees them after
that. Wow. But her sister andher Aunt Waldo, as it's referred
probably Sarah Irving. Waldoattended her wedding as well as
her uncle Isaac Winslow, and hewalks her down the aisle gives
(06:20):
her away. And so it made methink of you, because it made me
think of John Custis and MarthaWashington trying to convince
him that she wasn't essentiallyjust a gold digger, but
essentially Thomas Flucker Srwas not really thrilled with the
idea of Henry Knox being marriedto his daughter, Henry Knox.
(06:42):
Well, he was a tradesman. He wasan orphaned son. He didn't
really come from means of anykind. He did not have a formal
education.
Kathryn Gehred (06:52):
He was a bookseller.
Mary Wigge (06:53):
He was a bookseller.
Kathryn Gehred (06:54):
And according to one of the old, probably quite
inaccurate articles I read abouthim, he was very handsome and
had a military stance, the waythat they describe all of these
men. Yes, so when I was firsttrying to research her, there's
not a lot of there's a littlebit, but there's not a lot of
academic writing about her. Oneof the early books that talks
about LucyFlucker Knox, it's anexample of the way that women's
(07:18):
history is often written in theearly 1900s it's from the
Pioneer Mothers of America,which, there's a lot of sort of
politics just in the title ofthe book, from the Pioneer
Mothers of America. But this isthe opening quote of the
description of her. There was astir among the daughters and
Dames of Boston town when oneday in 1774 the word was spread
(07:39):
that Lucy Flucker, the prettyand petted daughter of Secretary
Thomas flucker of the RoyalProvince of Massachusetts, had
defied parental authority andmarried Henry Knox, the
bookseller. Not that Henry Knoxwasn't an eligible young man,
good enough for any girl, but hewas in trade. It just cracks me
up. I like the way that that'swritten. It's just, like, so
(08:02):
funny to me. When you startreading a source like that, you
have to have, like, the biggestgrain of salt About everything
in it imaginable, absolutely.
Mary Wigge (08:09):
Oh man, yeah, but it's not far off from what I've
I mean, that's nearly everyother
Kathryn Gehred (08:17):
Yeah, she's not wrong.
Mary Wigge (08:19):
She's not wrong. But it is interesting, because,
okay, so Henry Knox really makesa name for himself, because
first he's working at abookstore under the tutelage and
kind of learning the trade in awell known bookstore in the
heart of Boston, and then heopens his own bookstore, and
he's only 21
Kathryn Gehred (08:39):
Wow.
Mary Wigge (08:39):
Yeah, yeah, he's moving up fast, and he was a
good catch. I would say,
Kathryn Gehred (08:44):
Nice. Well, I'm rooting for them. My other just
brief complaint before we divein, is, if you Google Lucy
Flucker Knox, a lot of picturesshow up that are not of her,
they're of other people. Butthere is a silhouette of her,
which is a little bit harder tofind. Mary, could you describe
what the silhouette of Lucy LucyFlucker Knox looks like?
Mary Wigge (09:06):
It's incredible. She's a bit of the larger side
just from her face expressionand her chest like she's just
very plump, and then her hairstands like at least a foot
high, and then on top of that,you have a ridiculous top hat,
(09:26):
at least from the silhouette.That's how it appears. But it's
great.
Kathryn Gehred (09:30):
It's like make my hair four and a half feet
tall, and then put a full likesnowman top hat on top of it.
Mary Wigge (09:38):
It's so good, so good. I don't want to bash Lucy
at all, as I said, but there isan incredible quote I have to
share this with you, because thefirst thing I did when you asked
me to, like, revisit Lucy andHenry Knox, I just went through
will Rotunda and Founders Onlineand look at the other papers to
(09:59):
see. What had been written abouther, if there was any mention of
the Knox's, and specifically ofLucy. And this one's incredible,
and it's bit harsh, but it'sincredible. So it's Abigail
Adams Smith to Abigail Adams,and this is in 1788 so she says,
(10:19):
"General and Mrs. Knox have beenvery polite and attentive to us.
Mrs. Knox is much altered fromthe character she used to have.
She is neat in her dress,attentive to her family, and
very fond of her children. Buther size is enormous. I'm
frightened when I look at her. Iverily believe that her waist is
as large as three of yours, atleast." I burst out laughing.
Kathryn Gehred (10:43):
Abigail!
Mary Wigge (10:44):
It was so mean. I couldn't believe it. I was I had
never actually read such a harshcritique of another woman. I was
both surprised and a bitstunned.
Kathryn Gehred (10:55):
All right, well, I'm gonna come here in defense
of Lucy Flucker Knox, she had ahard youth, and she could be as
big as she wants, Abigail Adams.Come on!
Mary Wigge (11:04):
You know what? Also I didn't even mention, it does
not get any easier immediatelyafter they marry, because, like,
consider they get married in1774 and then the next year is
the beginning of the AmericanRevolution, and then her primary
family leaves, just leavesBoston, goes back across the
(11:24):
ocean to London, and her husbandleaves to go fight against the
British. So she's left allalone. Not an easy life.
Kathryn Gehred (11:34):
This is a good letter to talk about that for
her. So to get down to thespecifics of this specific
letter. She writes it to HenryKnox, 23rd August, 1777, so at
this point in the AmericanRevolution, Knox, again, I
talked about him. He was abookseller. He was just like
interested in military things.He read a lot about things like
(11:56):
artillery. And from that, he wasactually incredibly talented. I
can see why he's such a popularfigure, because it's sort of
that classic American, notexactly bootstraps, but like he
wasn't born into the top ofBoston Society. He just read a
lot about the military, and thenwhen a war broke out, he was
able to use that knowledgehelpfully. So he sort of
(12:16):
famously proved his medal asartillery commander in the
winter of 1775 to 1776 when hemanaged to transport an insane
amount of heavy weaponry thathad been captured at Fort
Ticonderoga all the way to whereWashington needed it, outside of
Boston, which people didn'tthink was possible. And it just
shows that he was really good atthe side of the military that's
(12:37):
moving things from point A topoint B, which is so important.
So at this exact moment, he'swith Washington in Philadelphia,
and George Washington is tryingdesperately to keep Philadelphia
in American hands. They havejust met the Marquita Lafayette,
who sort of describes this timeperiod in his book. And the
(12:58):
battle of Brandywine has nothappened yet, but will be coming
soon, on September 11. So Knoxis in and around the
Philadelphia area at the timethat she's writing this, where
Lucy is at home in Bostonwriting to him, and at the exact
moment that she writes him onthe Yeah, the 23rd Knox wrote to
(13:18):
Lucy on the 25th that theContinental Army had marched
through Philadelphia on thenight of August 23 so the night
that she wrote this letter andastonished the Tories with their
respectability, but he hadn'tbeen there because he'd been 40
miles away to purchase somethings for my dear, dear Lucy.
So she's talking about being allalone and forgotten, but he was
(13:38):
really thinking about herliterally the exact night that
she's writing this letter, whichI thought was kind of cute.
Mary Wigge (13:43):
It is cute. I should also add that most recently also
is the loss of Fort Ticonderoga,but also the Saratoga Campaign,
in which the American forcesdefeat the British forces under
General John Burgoyne. So it'sboth a medley of some losses,
(14:05):
some wins. I should alsomention, with a little research
earlier, I want to say, like inthe spring of '77 Lucy and her
daughter get inoculated fromsmallpox because she was
starting to hear that it wasspreading, especially in the
military encampments, and she'sdesperately always trying to go
(14:27):
visit Henry, or at least havehim come home. She's dying to
see him.
Kathryn Gehred (14:32):
That's good. It's smart to get the smallpox
inoculation.
Mary Wigge (14:35):
And then around also this time, I believe she's
maintaining home and child. Ithink they just have one girl at
this point, Lucy, Lucy junior, Iguess we could call her. She's
also trying to assume control ofher parents' Boston house and
property, because it was aroundthis time that Continental
Congress were trying to acquireany property owned by well.
(15:00):
Tories and loyalists, and sothey're trying to assume that
property, rather than it goingto the forces.
Kathryn Gehred (15:07):
Great. All right, I think, I think we've
set things up fairly nicely.Anything else you wanted to let
people know before we jump intothe letter?
Mary Wigge (15:14):
I just thought the timing was interesting, and I
think it'll come into play withthis letter. But you gave a
great description of Henry Knoxgains his mettle with bringing
the British cannon down fromFort Ticonderoga, from what I
was reading, the timing of thatso they position it on
Dorchester Heights, so aroundBoston, pointing into the city.
(15:38):
And that's partially, well,mainly what causes the British
fleet to depart and leaveimmediately, but that's also
when Lucy's mom and her twosisters and her brother depart
as well.
Kathryn Gehred (15:52):
Oh, wow.
Mary Wigge (15:54):
This was almost like Henry.
Kathryn Gehred (15:56):
Oh no.
Mary Wigge (15:57):
We didn't see that outcome. But
Kathryn Gehred (15:59):
Have you ever wanted to point a bunch of
cannons at your in-laws? Henrylived the dream.
Mary Wigge (16:05):
Man, Lucy will not let him forget it.
Kathryn Gehred (16:09):
Okay, all right, I'm gonna go ahead and read the
letter.
Boston August 23rd 1777 MyDearest Friend,
I wrote you a line by the lastpost just to lett you know I was
alive which indeed was all Icould then say with propriety
for I had serious thoughts thatI never should see you again, so
(16:29):
much was I reduced by only fourdays illness. But by help of a
good constitution I amsurprisingly better today. I am
now to answer your three lastletters. In one of which you ask
for a history of my life. It is,my love, so barren of
adventures, and so replete withrepetition that I fear it will
afford you little amusement.However, such as it is, I give
(16:52):
it you. In the first place, Irise about eight in the morning
(a lazy hour you will say – butthe day after that, is full long
for a person in my situation) Ipresently after sitt down to my
breakfast, where a page in mybook, and a dish of tea, employ
me alternately for about anhour. When after seeing that
family matters go on right, Irepair to my work, my book, or
(17:14):
my pen, for the rest of theforenoon. At two o’clock I
usually take my solitary dinnerwhere I reflect upon my past
happiness when I used to sitt atthe window watching for my Harry
– and when I saw him coming myheart would leap for joy – when
he was all my own and neverhappy from me. When the bare
thought of six months absencewould have shocked him. To
(17:37):
divert these ideas I place mylittle Lucy by me at table. But
the more engaging her littleactions are, so much the more do
I regret the absence of herfather who would take such
delight in them. In theafternoon I commonly take my
chaise, and ride into thecountry or go to drink tea with
one of my few [struck: acquaintance] [inserted: (17:54):
undefined
friends]. They consist of MrsJarviss Mrs Sears Mrs Smith Mrs
Pollard and my Aunt Waldo – Ihave many acquaintance beside
these whom I visit but notwithout ceremony. when with any
(18:14):
of the former I often spend theevening, but when I return home…
how shall describe my feelingsto find myself intirely alone.
To reflect that the only friendI have in the world is at such
an imense distance from me – tothink that he may be sick and I
cannot assist him. ah poor me myheart is ready to burst, you who
(18:34):
know what a trifle would make meunhappy, can conceive what I
suffer now. – When I seriouslyreflect that I have lost my
father Mother Brother andSisters – intirely lost them – I
am half distracted. True Ichearfully resigned them for one
far dearer to me than all ofthem – but I am totaly deprived
of him – I have not seen him foralmost six months – and he
(18:58):
writes me without pointing outany method by which I may ever
expect to see him again – tishard my Harry indeed it is. I
love you with the tenderest, thepurest affection – I would
undergo any hardships to be nearyou and you will not lett me –
suppose this campaign should belike the last carried into the
winter – do you intend not tosee me in all that time? – tell
(19:20):
me dear what your plan is – Iwrote you that the Hero Sailed
while I was at Newburg – She didbut has been cruiseing about
from harbour to harbour since –to get met – she is now here,
and will sail in a day or twofor france. I wish I had fifty
guinies to spare to send by herfor necessarys – but I have not
– the very little gold we havemust be reserved for my Love in
(19:42):
case he should be taken – forfriends in such a case are not
too common. – I am moredistressed from the hott weather
than any other fears – God grantyou may not go farther south’ard
– if you should I possitivelywill come too – I believe Genl
Howe is a paltry fellow – buthappy for as that he is so – Are
you not much pleased with thenews from the Northard? We think
(20:05):
it is a great affair and aconfirmation of St. Clairs
villainy baseness – I hope hewill not go unpunished – we hear
also that Genl Gates is to goback to his command. – if so
Master Schuyler, cannot beguiltless – it is very strange,
you never mentioned that affairin any of your letters – What
has become of Mrs Greene, do youall live together – or how do
(20:26):
you manage – is Billy to remainwith you payless or is he to
have a commission? – if theformer I think he had much
better remained where he was –if he understood business he
might without a capital havemade a fortune – people here –
without advanceing a shillingfrequently clear hundreds in a
day – such chaps as Eben Oliverare all men of fortune – while
(20:48):
persons who have ever lived inaffluence are in danger of want.
oh that you had less of themilitary man about you – you
might then after the war havelived at ease all the days of
your life. But now I don't knowwhat you will do, your being
long acustomed to command willmake you too haughty for
mercantile matters. tho I hopeyou will not consider yourself
as commander in chief of yourown house – but be convinced,
(21:12):
tho not in the affair of MrCoudre, that there is such a
thing as equal command. I sendthis by Capt. Randal who says he
expects to remain with you. prayhow many of these lads have you
– I am sure they must be veryexpensive – I am in want of some
square dollars – which I expectfrom you to buy me a peace of
linen, an article I can do nolonger without haveing had no
(21:34):
recruit of that kind for almostfive years. girls in general
when they marry are well stockedwith those things but poor I had
no such advantage – little Lucywho is without exception the
sweetest child in the worldsends you a kiss, “but where
shall I take it from?” say you –from the paper I hope – but dare
I say I sometimes fear that along absence the force of bad
(21:57):
example may lead you to forgetme at sometimes. To know that it
ever gave you pleasure to be incompany with the finest woman in
the world, would be worse thandeath to me – but it is not so,
my Harry is too just, toodelicate, too sincere – and too
fond of his Lucy to admit themost remote thought of that
distracting kind –away with it –don't be angry with me my Love –
(22:21):
I am not jealous of youaffection – I love you with a
love as true and sacred as everentered the human heart – but
from a diffidence of my ownmerit I sometimes fear you will
Love me less – after being solong from me – if you should may
my life end before I know it –that I may die thinking you
wholly mine – Adieu my love -L
(22:42):
Okay, so this is such a goodletter, I saw it's a draft. So I
wonder if some of these sort ofstream of thought, stream of
consciousness sections gotstuck, like some of the parts
where she's like, please don'tcheat on me. Please don't cheat
on me. I wonder if she cut someof those in the final actual
letter. Do you have any ideaabout that?
Mary Wigge (23:03):
I don't. I love seeing like the words that were
struck out and then replaced,like what's softer or what's
stronger than what I want touse. Yeah, but she doesn't seem
to have her mind made up whetherto be angry, or at least, dare I
say, passive aggressive with himto say, I need you around, but I
(23:24):
want to be with you. I want tobe with you, but I also love
you, but also I pulled myselfaway from my family for you, but
also I love you, decide one orthe other. Yeah. I'm curious
what that final draft would looklike.
Kathryn Gehred (23:38):
Yeah. I love everything about this. I love
how well written it is. I lovehow funny she is. I love her
little news. The thing that gotme to pick this one is her
little bit about how she spendsher day, because I feel like
that's sort of an insight into awell off Boston lady that you
don't always get to see when shetalks about being entirely
(24:00):
alone. I can't believe she'sactually entirely alone, if
she's just able to, just likeshe sleeps till eight. I'm like,
who's taking care of your littleLucy now that I have a kid, but
that's my first thought withthis is you get to have a sit
down with a dish of tea andwrite for several hours.
Mary Wigge (24:16):
I know it's like from eight. And then she really
says, like from two o'clock PM.I'm like, What are you doing?
You have a child. Don't you havea house to manage well?
Kathryn Gehred (24:27):
And so it seems like other people are doing it.
But then she keeps emphasizing,I'm entirely alone. I'm like,
don't you have a maid that youchat with, or anything? Or
that's not worth mentioning inthe letter.
Mary Wigge (24:37):
I know she names quite a number of friends, or,
as she said, first acquaintancesand then friends. They all seem
like they are based in Boston.Their husbands are very likely
acquainted with Henry. That'squite a few people to go see
every now and again. I'm veryimpressed with what is she doing
(24:58):
with her time?
Kathryn Gehred (24:59):
Yeah, it's. A little insight into the Boston
wealthy class. I like when shetalks about how she used to just
sit waiting for her Harry tocome visit like that is cute.
That's a cute little scene,
Mary Wigge (25:12):
it is, but it's another kind of dig at Henry.
She's just digging. And I likehow she does that. That's what I
remember from her days at MarthaWashington Papers, we had to go
looking through Lucy and HenryKnox letters, because by the
time that Battle of Yorktowncomes around, she's at Mount
(25:34):
Vernon. And also, as youremember, that's when Martha's
son John Parke Custis, dies. Soboth Henry and Lucy are well
aware of this and trying to talkabout how they should probably
leave out of respect for thisfamily that is in mourning and
sorrow, but they're still likethis playful language and Lucy
(25:55):
uses, and you can just tell thatshe has a lot of sass and
intelligence, yeah. But she'salso possibly jealous of anyone
else who's around her, Henry,yeah.
Kathryn Gehred (26:07):
And I think the little bit where she says, You
who know what a trifle wouldmake me unhappy, can conceive
what I suffer now. So she'steasing herself a little bit.
She's like, you know, I used tobe sad at a trifle, and now I
have real things to be sadabout, and then she goes into
like, what she really is sadabout the fact that she's
entirely lost her father,mother, brother and sisters, and
that's rough. These familydynamics are so complicated in
(26:31):
the American Revolution.
Mary Wigge (26:32):
Yeah it gets very, very hard. And I think she has
an aunt, as I mentioned before,who attends her wedding, who's I
think, mentioned here? Yeah, heraunt Waldo, who she can see, but
from this collection of Henryand Lucy Knox letters, it
includes a couple of letterswritten to her mother and even
(26:54):
to her sister, just trying toreach out, trying to correspond,
and she's not getting any wordback. It's really hard and sad.
She's very playful in herlanguage, and I do think that
she's uncertain how to betowards Henry. It's rather
apparent that, of course, shemisses him terribly, but she
also seems a bit well steamed.
Kathryn Gehred (27:15):
Yes, this next paragraph, in particular, when
she goes from being legitimatelysad. I've lost my father,
mother, brother and sistersentirely. Lost them. I'm half
distracted, and then she's likeI cheerfully resigned them for
one far dearer to me than all ofthem, but now I'm totally
deprived man. It's like I've notseen him for six months, and he
(27:37):
writes to me without pointingout any myth. It's just like she
is going through it, and she'swriting it as she feels it, but
it's still well written. And shesays, I would undergo any
hardship to be near you, and youwill not let me like oof,
beautiful. But this alsoprovides an insight into the
American Revolution that we seea lot in these letters from
(27:57):
women, that I think peoplesometimes forget is that there
were so many women travelingaround with these armies. She
wants to be there because thereare other women there. She's
asking if Nathaniel Greene'swife is there. These winter
encampments had a lot ofofficers wives there, all of
these sort of people. Imagine,you know, the traveling army and
to be almost entirely male, butthere were always lots of women
(28:21):
there. So to leave them out isnot telling the whole story.
Mary Wigge (28:26):
And it's interesting because Henry Knox is really
descriptive to Lucy about anumber of the battles, and that
includes, like, the Battle ofTrenton, the Battle of
Princeton. So like, rememberCrossing the Delaware, but he's
so descriptive to her aboutthese and you can tell that he
wishes she's there, but he alsodoesn't want her to be there, to
be in any harms way. But thenshe comes back with one
(28:48):
particular letter when she's atMount Vernon. This is later in
1781, well, Martha Washingtonand John Parke Custis, his wife,
received their letters fromtheir husband saying that they
can come to the winterencampments. Where's my letter?
I still haven't heard from you.When can I come see you? I mean,
like this was like another formof community. But most
(29:10):
importantly, this is like forher to be with her husband. I
don't think she really startstraveling to winter encampments
until around 1778 so there is aton of traveling. You're right.
Kathryn Gehred (29:22):
My other point, I might have made this a million
times before, but when thistier, like the officers wives,
like the generals, wives, aregoing to a winter encampment,
travel is tough and all of that.But when they're in these
headquarters, they're in thebiggest, fanciest house they
could find. Oh yeah, they arehaving parties. They are
socializing. And yes, there isabsolutely risk. There's totally
(29:45):
risk. For these women that aretraveling with these armies,
there's a reason that she wantsto go. She's not gonna go there
and be like horrified by scenesof terrible war, necessarily.
She's a little bit shielded fromthat. So for her, it really is.
She just wants to see Henry.
Mary Wigge (29:58):
It is interesting, though. Of around this
particular time, if not evenearlier, in 1776 Henry is
writing asking her to send himthings she knows she's supposed
to bring, all these items,sheets or bedding and spoons,
like all the utensils,everything for an actual
(30:19):
legitimate house during winterencampments, not to mention, as
you were talking about, all thehosting that just That's a lot.
Kathryn Gehred (30:27):
Back to the letter, where she talks about, I
wish I had 50 guineas to spare.And then she says, the very
little gold we have must bereserved for my love in case he
should be taken. So is shetalking about paying off like, a
bail, like, if he is captured asa prisoner of war so she can,
like, get him out. Is that whatshe's talking about?
Mary Wigge (30:44):
That's how I interpreted it, and it was
pretty common. But I mean, itdoes also just sound like money
is getting hard to come by, andin the brief other letters that
I was reading of theircorrespondence, or other
correspondence that they havearound this time frame. She's
like, this particular item thatyou're asking or food stuff that
(31:06):
you're asking for. It doesn'tjust come out of thin air. It's
very expensive. I can't just goand try to find this for you,
but it is becoming a bit of moreof a trying time. I mean, it's a
hard economy during war time.
Kathryn Gehred (31:19):
Yeah she's not war profiteering like Abigail.
No, although maybe she is, she'sshe does talk about like, who's
making a fortune down here? Thatpart surprised me. Yeah, we have
to throw in the feminist quotethat gets cited quite a bit,
where she says, Your being longaccustomed to command will make
you too haughty for mercantilematters, though, I hope you will
(31:40):
not consider yourself ascommander in chief of your own
house. There is such a thing asequal command. Like snaps, snaps
to Lucy.
Mary Wigge (31:49):
It's fantastic. But even before reading that, I
mean, just from a general senseof reading some of Lucy and
Henry Knox's letters, I waslike, Yeah, that sounds like her
personality. Yeah, she's notgoing to get walked over. No,
she's not going to take any ofthat. That just made sense to
me. I'm like, Yeah, of course.
Kathryn Gehred (32:10):
He's not going to be commander in chief of his
own house.
Mary Wigge (32:13):
No, no,
Kathryn Gehred (32:16):
Let's see. Oh yeah. When she says, girls in
general, when they marry, arewell stocked with those things.
But poor, I had no suchadvantage. That is some passive
aggression. That's not evenhiding the passive aggression,
no. Poor, I had no suchadvantage.
Mary Wigge (32:32):
She doesn't let him forget at all. And it just seems
like, Oh, poor Henry, but likeyou understand her
circumstances,
Kathryn Gehred (32:41):
To lose touch with her whole family for him,
yeah, I'd completely understand.
Mary Wigge (32:47):
And again, I think because when we first started
looking through Henry and LucyKnox correspondence, I think
what I never really picked upwas just how young they were at
this time frame, Martha GeorgeWashington are like, 25 years
their senior? Yeah, she's stilllike 21 right now?
Kathryn Gehred (33:06):
Yeah, this reads like a 21 year old letter,
right? She should be at theclub.
Mary Wigge (33:10):
She totally would. She's bored, well, not bored,
but she's lonely, and she reallywants to be with her husband,
but like, they're going throughthe most difficult time frame,
arguably in American history,but also probably for their
marriage, because this is gonnacontinue for the next five, six
years.
Kathryn Gehred (33:28):
That is a really great point to bring up, that
these are very young people,yeah, and I'll hear a little bit
about kissing the paper at theend. Is cute whenever somebody
writes like, but what will yousay? Where shall I take it from
that always made me laugh. Andthen just like, five or six
sentences of just like, I knowthere's women there, and if you
(33:49):
should made my life and before Iknow it, I love that. She's
like, maybe, maybe you are, youknow, not being faithful, but do
not let me know
Mary Wigge (33:57):
There's a level of self doubt that I was reading in
this last paragraph, she's like,I am not jealous of your
affection. I love you truly andso forth with a pure heart. But
I would die if you said that youhad been in the company of the
finest woman in the world. Iinterpreted that as a completely
different other woman, yes, yes.She seems to be again, all over
(34:19):
the place, emotionally on thatfront, or at least how I
perceive it as like a sense ofself doubt. And I mean, she's in
the blind. She has no ideawhat's going on here so
Kathryn Gehred (34:31):
And again, I don't know how much of this last
paragraph made it into theactual letter that she sent him,
right and in real life, thenight she is writing this, he is
40 miles away from where theaction is, buying her something
which I think is great,
Mary Wigge (34:45):
Like all this doubt that she has turns out to be for
no reason purpose.
Kathryn Gehred (34:51):
I mean, I don't know. They didn't write things
down. Maybe, maybe it was
Mary Wigge (34:54):
That's very fair. Maybe she had real reason to be
suspicious.
Kathryn Gehred (34:59):
What I like about this letter is it does
feel so real and honest abouther feelings, and it's this
little window into her life,even describing what she does
during a day and how she talksabout her daughter. And so I can
see why teachers assign thisletter a lot when they're
talking about what life was likefor women during the revolution,
but I will say again that thisis the life of a very high class
(35:20):
wealthy, married to an officerwoman. So this is not what any
woman was experiencing. This isa very specific white, upper
class woman's experience of therevolution, and she's still
having a tough time. Not sayingshe's not having a tough time,
but just something to keep inmind.
Mary Wigge (35:36):
I think that's a really good point, and I think
that's in the paragraph. Well,she's describing the news about
like General Howe and St.Clair's villainy. She's well
aware of military news andwhat's going on, so at least she
has an idea of what's happeningon the battlefield. And that's
(35:56):
also, as I was mentioning,thanks to some of Henry's
letters, because he's describingthe Battle of Trenton, the
Battle of Princeton, and he doestalk about the surrender at
Yorktown later on in 1781 whichI always thought was really
interesting. She's getting thatfront row seat perspective how
much she really cares about it.I think she does, but I think
(36:20):
she cares a bit more if Henrywere at home and safe, or at
least they were together.
Kathryn Gehred (36:25):
She doesn't strike me as somebody who is
like willingly an officer'swife. She would rather he had
been staying in Boston andmaking money and being right
next to her, I think.
Mary Wigge (36:34):
Yeah, I think she wanted to marry the bookstore
owner. I think my firstimpression of her was a bit
harsh, because I didn'tappreciate where she was coming
from, her family background, howold she was, or really, her
circumstances, really in life,like as a new mom, I bet she's
(36:56):
also constantly questioningeverything she's doing and feels
alone. But my first impression,I would say, I still kind of
uphold of like she's sassy andlike her letters. I don't think
we see this very often, and Ikind of wish we had had an
opportunity with like MarthaWashington. They're so lovey
(37:16):
dovey and filled of romanticmetaphors, but also they're
intelligent, a little passiveaggressive, and a little little
self pity and self doubt therein here, but it makes them more
human. And yeah, this was areally good letter.
Kathryn Gehred (37:30):
That is a really great way to sum it up.
Mary Wigge (37:32):
I think this was a good letter to choose from,
because it shows all forms ofnot just the public sphere, but
also the private sphere thatwere involved that affected
people's lives, especiallyduring the American Revolution,
and especially for militarywives.
Kathryn Gehred (37:51):
Well Mary, thank you so much for joining me on
the podcast and talking aboutthis. This was so much fun.
Mary Wigge (37:56):
This was a fun letter. Thank you.
Kathryn Gehred (37:58):
So for my listeners, I will link to some
of these letters we're talkingabout, we will definitely cite
the book that Mary mentionedusing for research for this. And
I am, as ever, your mostobedient and humble servant.
Thank you very much.
(38:22):
Your Most Obedient & HumbleServant is a production of R2
Studios, part of the RoyRosenzweig Center for History
and New Media at George MasonUniversity. This episode is
supported by the Er. SchollFoundation. I'm Kathryn Gehred,
the creator and host of thispodcast, Jeanette Patrick and
(38:43):
Jim Ambuske are the executiveproducers. Haley Madl is our
graduate assistant. Specialthanks to Virginia Humanities
for allowing me to use theirrecording studio. If you enjoyed
this episode, please tell afriend and be sure to rate and
review the series in yourpodcast app. For more great
(39:05):
history podcasts, head toR2studios.org, thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.