April 22, 2025 • 41 mins
Diane Ehrenpreis joins Kathryn Gehred to discuss a letter from Martha Jefferson to a Mrs. Madison dated August 8, 1780 in which Jefferson encourages women to join together and raise funds to support the Continental soldiers. This letter is one of only four known correspondences in Jefferson’s hand. In this episode, Diane and Katy discuss some of the ways Jefferson’s words have been misinterpreted in the past.
Diane Ehrenpreis is the Curator of Decorative Arts and Historic Interiors at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. She has worked in the Curatorial Department at Monticello for twenty-three years, researching and building the collection. In her capacity as a curator, she supervised a complete study and reinstallation of Monticello’s second and third floor rooms, as well as Jefferson’s Private Suite. Currently, she is overseeing plans to reinstall the Dining and Tea Rooms to better interpret Thomas Jefferson’s aesthetic and didactic intent. Forthcoming work includes an article co-authored with scholar Nicole Brown on Martha Wayles Skelton Jefferson's role as an activist living in Revolutionary Virginia, one that was initially suppressed by her partner and fellow revolutionary, Thomas Jefferson. She holds an M.A. in Art History from Boston University and B.A. in Art History from University of Illinois at Chicago.
Find the official transcript here.
Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant is a production of R2 Studios, part of the Roy Rosenzweig Center for History and New Media at George Mason University.
“Martha Wayles Skelton Jefferson to Eleanor Conway Madison, 8 August 1780,” Founders Online, National Archives, https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-03-02-0615.
Esher Reed, “The Sentiments of an American Woman,” 1780, Virginia Humanities, https://encyclopediavirginia.org/primary-documents/the-sentiments-of-an-american-woman-1780/.
“George Washington to Esther De Berdt Reed, 14 July 1780,” Founders Online, National Archives, https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-27-02-0093.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Kathryn Gehred (00:06):
Hello and welcome to Your Most Obedient &
Humble Servant. This is awomen's history podcast where we
feature 18th and early 19thcentury women's letters that
don't get as much attention aswe think they should. I'm your
host, Kathryn Gehred. I'mthrilled to welcome Diane
Ehrenpreis to the show. Diane isthe curator of decorative arts
and historic interiors at ThomasJefferson's Monticello.
Diane Ehrenpreis (00:28):
Thank you for the invitation. It's nice to see
you, Katy.
Kathryn Gehred (00:30):
Wonderful to have you. So first, can you tell
me a little bit about your workat Monticello?
Diane Ehrenpreis (00:35):
Well I've been here over 20 years, and my
background is in art history,and I've been fortunate enough
to do many projects here,frequently researching whether
objects can be identified asoriginal to Monticello or to
Thomas Jefferson specifically,or if we're fortunate, Martha
Jefferson, and that's reallyenabled me to work on many
(00:58):
projects over the years,particularly related to research
and re installation of the roomsin the house. So some of our
guests maybe have been back inthe last six to 10 years, and
has seen the second and thirdfloors open on our behind the
scenes tour. I oversaw thatresearch and re installation,
(01:19):
and then that was followed bydoing the same process for
Thomas Jefferson's privatesuite, the most significant
rooms, probably at Monticello,as far as understanding Thomas
Jefferson and his work practicesand how he liked to surround
himself, what objects stories ofpeople visiting these spaces or
enslaved working in thesespaces, and currently I'm
(01:42):
working on plans really are inplay to restore the tea room to
best reflect how it looked inJefferson's era. And people will
be very surprised to know thatit was its own remarkable color
adjacent to the dramatic andwell known yellow dining room. I
just been so fortunate to beable to use my art historical
skills, but also in workinghere, cultivated a real
(02:05):
background in doing socialhistory and women's history,
which brings us together today.
Kathryn Gehred (02:11):
Yeah, I wanted to ask, is there any Martha
Jefferson object that you'vecome across that's really
exciting in your career atMonticello?
Diane Ehrenpreis (02:17):
Well, of course, you know material
culture with Martha is neverenough, but we do have. We
actually are fortunate. So wehave silver from her first
marriage, and pieces that shebrought to Monticello and used
here, a beautiful ladle that welike to have on view. I'm very
attached to a silk pin cushionthat originally had little steel
(02:40):
pins that probably saidsomething like welcome stranger,
or that kind of little message.Those were imported from England
in the 1770s and this issomething that Martha Jefferson
Randolph saved. So we reallythink this is an important, very
personal kind of object. And ofcourse, it tells us about how
(03:01):
they used pins to keep babyclothes on, which we wouldn't do
today,
Kathryn Gehred (03:05):
Absolutely terrifying to think about for
Diane Ehrenpreis (03:07):
Yeah, and most recently, Thomas Jefferson
me.
commissioned a memento moriwatch key in honor of his wife
after she died. We're notexactly sure where he got it,
but certainly some sort of urbansetting, Philadelphia, possibly
Williamsburg, maybe Paris, buton one side, it has her, of
course, name and life and deathdates. On the recto, underneath
(03:30):
a crystal, is a plait of herhair, this beautiful Auburn
shade of hair. So it's reallythe physicality of Martha
wrapped up in that piece. And itwas very exciting to finally
bring that home, and it just,you know, it's, there's the only
one. There might be eight silverJefferson cups, but there's just
one of these watch keys. Andwhen you think about it by
(03:53):
extension, this is somethingJefferson wore next to his
person every day, and would havehandled it and thought about her
every day when he wound hispocket watch. So yes, and you
know, we always hope to findmore things, or there's clues
about what was here usingarcheological shirts and
tableware. And we could talkabout a lot Katy.
Kathryn Gehred (04:13):
Coming on a women's history podcast, how
does sort of working in historyand historic interiors? Do you
feel like that ties into women'shistory and your experience.
Diane Ehrenpreis (04:21):
That's how this whole project started, was
through an interior. You know,it's a domestic sphere. But
years ago, the curator at thetime, Susan Stein, asked me to
please start doing research andputting together a furnishing
plan for the South Pavilion,which many of our listeners
know, was the first domesticdwelling where Thomas Jefferson
(04:42):
and Martha Jefferson startedtheir married life. And that's
how I started working on herstory. Picture living in a
studio apartment in New York andyou've got one or two toddlers
in there while you're waitingfor your house to be built in
the suburbs. That's what it was.It was sort of like. For them,
and that's how I ran across andlearned more about the silver
(05:03):
that I mentioned and the pincushion and these types of
important objects that survivefrom Martha. That was my
introduction to learning thatthe actual documentary evidence
for her life was reduced to whatwe then thought was three
letters. And working on thisproject, a fourth letter showed
up. Those are the only letters,actual, you know,
(05:26):
correspondence, that survive inMartha Jefferson's own hand. I'm
sure we'll find more. I know wewill. But the content of those
letters is what set this projectin motion, as far as
understanding, you know, what isshe writing about? Who's she
writing on August 8, 1780, soabsolutely women's experiences,
(05:47):
the material culture that's leftfrom them, documentation,
probates, inventories,absolutely overlays pretty much
every space at Monticello in oneway or another.
Kathryn Gehred (05:58):
So tell me more about this project that you're
working on.
Diane Ehrenpreis (06:02):
Working with a young scholar named Nicole
Brown, and together, we areworking on an essay. It's really
about Martha Wayles SkeltonJefferson, how her, almost her
entire married life, overlaysthe Revolutionary era in
Virginia, and seeing if we cango back to the documentation,
(06:22):
not just these four briefletters, but you know, letters
that people write to oneanother, that might mention her,
or the overlaying where theexpense account tells us they
were and what was happening inVirginia at that time and
increasingly, the stakes gothigher and higher, as far as
(06:43):
what women in Virginia wentthrough as the theater of war
finally comes to Virginia inlate 1780 and twice during 1781
so that's the project we'reworking on, and we've managed to
find some really Interesting newmaterial. I was excited to find
sort of a gossipy letter whichsaid, oh, please share this with
(07:06):
Mrs. Jefferson. And the tone ofthe anecdote was very chatty and
warm. And you know, as you know,doing women's history, sometimes
you have to go by inference, or,you know, deduction. What that
would tell us if he's wanting tointeract via a letter with such
a warm and sort of almostgossipy, playful tone,
(07:29):
recounting a story about ashared friend. What does that
tell us about Martha? And Ithink that it told us quite a
bit. So that's some of the stuffthat's coming along in this
essay. Oh, great. That'sawesome. Yeah, you know, maybe
we should talk about, why isDiane having to go in through
the back door? Yeah, to find,you know, by inference, learn
(07:49):
more about Mrs. Jefferson'stemperament and her playful, you
know, maybe her sense of humor.And that's because most of the
entire epistolary record and hasdisappeared. So that's fairly
well known, I think for many ofour listeners, that Thomas
Jefferson and the way thatMartha Washington, Thomas
(08:11):
Jefferson, there's one referencethat makes it very clear that
he's actively collecting MarthaJefferson's his deceased wife's
letters late in life. So it'snot that he's just destroying
the their own letters betweenthem, but he's asked the
neighbor down the road, Mrs.Coles, for Martha Jefferson's
(08:33):
letters, and that's prettycalculating, right to like,
literally round them up, and byextension, he probably asked
Martha Jefferson's half sistersfor letters that she may have
written. This is why they're sovery scarce. And even a great
granddaughter records how no onein our family has a scrap of
(08:56):
paper that Mrs. Jefferson wroteon. So that's why we have to go
to extensive lengths. We willnot be defeated. We can tell
this story, you know, give hervoice back to a certain extent,
by using tools that people whodo women's history have had a
lot of success with thinkingabout things just a little
(09:17):
differently.
Kathryn Gehred (09:18):
Yeah, sometimes you have to use different
sources. So I've thought aboutthis a lot after working on the
Martha Washington Papers oflike, why you would choose to
burn your correspondence, and Ifeel like Martha Washington sort
of wanted her letters destroyedbecause she didn't want to be
part of the historicalnarrative. But it does feel a
little bit interesting thatJefferson would go to such
(09:38):
lengths to burn all of thoseletters, and it's sort of like
claiming, you know, the memoryof this other person as yours. I
feel like that's how it was forMartha Washington, but it just
feels a little brutal for ThomasJefferson to be like, I am the
only person who gets to know whothis person was.
Diane Ehrenpreis (09:54):
You know when you get to have the luxury of
spending enough time to reallyread materials and think about
them. But, there was onepublished in Jefferson's first
biography, written by hisgrandson Thomas Jefferson
Randolph. In an appendix, heincluded a very important
document, which is essentially areceipt of some donations that
(10:16):
Virginia women made to acampaign that I think we'll talk
about but it occurred to me thatthe grandson didn't really know
what this was. He didn'tunderstand that what he was
reading was a campaign that hisown grandmother had launched in
support of the war effort,asking her peers and contacts of
(10:38):
women in Virginia to supportsuch a thing because the record
was gone, there was no contextfor it, and so her own children
and grandchildren didn't knowher contribution, not just you
know, like much about herpersonality, but even her life
in tandem with Thomas Jefferson,or as an activist apart from
(10:59):
Thomas Jefferson. When I thinkabout that, and you have
children, I think, my gosh, youknow, everyone wants to have a
little bit of a sense of whereyou come from and who these
ancestors were, and probably wassort of a painful void that they
just didn't have enoughinformation. And we don't know,
(11:20):
but my guess might be ThomasJefferson probably didn't talk
about Martha Jefferson verymuch.
Kathryn Gehred (11:26):
Sounds like that. So let's talk about her a
little bit.
Diane Ehrenpreis (11:29):
Okay, let's keep this going.
Kathryn Gehred (11:32):
We're going to be doing one of the few letters
from Martha Wayles SkeltonJefferson, Thomas Jefferson's
wife. Can you give me sort of anintroduction to who this person
Diane Ehrenpreis (11:40):
Yes, yes. So Martha Jefferson, her mother,
was?
was from a Virginia gentryfamily, the Eppes family,
another Martha, Martha Eppes,who married John Wales, and they
were down in the Tidewater. JohnWales was an Englishman who came
over. He was a tax collector, aplanter. He dealt in the slave
(12:01):
trade. And Martha's own motherdied when she was a baby, very
young infant. And John Walesgoes on to marry three times,
multiple stepmothers that MarthaWales had brought in over her
and then through thosemarriages, she had at least
three half sisters who lived toadulthood, and she was
(12:25):
particularly close to her sisterElizabeth Wales, who marries
another Kinsman, Frances Eppes,also John Wales has a
relationship with ElizabethHemings, and so there's a family
connection that's very closethroughout generations, and
they're some half siblingsthrough that relationship as
(12:46):
well. Much has been writtenabout that, and I encourage
people to take a look at theHemings and monticellos
remarkable book. So MarthaJefferson, by extension, we know
there's a book that survivesthat was clearly her own book,
Telemachus. She and ThomasJefferson appreciated Tristram
(13:06):
Shandy so popular literature,classical literature, and doing
work on this essay. Justrecently, Jefferson, in a
letter, mentions Mrs.Jefferson's old tutor. I think
his name is Mr. Rose, and Idon't think we knew she had a
tutor. So we, you know, that isa great one short reference that
makes us learn a whole lot moreabout she was very well
(13:29):
educated. And also musicalkeyboardist who had a tutor. I
think it's Peter palum who wasat Brewton parish church. So
really schooled and classicaleducation, beautiful
handwriting, and then she almostcertainly had experience in how
you manage a plantation in theslave society in Virginia, which
(13:52):
we know she went off to do atMonticello. So we don't think
that she had to figure that outon the wing. She probably was
doing some of that at the familyhome called the forest down in
Charles City County. She marriedwhen she was 18 to a man named
batter Skelton, and they weremarried for about three years,
and she had a son named John.And then the record suggests
(14:17):
that Skelton dies 1768, otherscholars think that Thomas
Jefferson probably started tocourt her early in 1771 and they
marry on New Year's Day, 1772.Sadly, maybe six months
beforehand her one son from herfirst marriage had died. So
(14:38):
Jefferson and Martha in themiddle of winter, he brings her
to Monticello. I think he mustbe excited to see that one
freestanding brick structurethat I referenced earlier. I
think this was a goodintroduction to working on
topics with Jefferson, becauseyou hear the lore, the sort of
story that was passed down inthe family about how they
(14:59):
arrived. Knee deep snow in themiddle of winter, no one was
expecting them, and that therewas no fire or beds ready, and
then they find a bottle of winethe evening, and the in the
whole honeymoon is salvaged,because they just companionable
together in this freestandingbuilding, literally on the top
(15:22):
of a little denuded mountain.And what was so helpful for me
to learn early on was when Iactually overlaid that anecdote
with the actual written recordin Jefferson's memorandum book,
we could see that they onlystayed about a week, and then
they went back down to theTidewater, went to stay with
friends and family. And youknow, when you think about it,
(15:45):
like, oh, well, if I was anewlywed, even today, and I was
on this snowy mountain top withinsufficient everything and
completely isolated from all myfriends and family, I might say,
I think it's, this is lovely. Ican't wait to come back in the
summer, but, and by the way,they do come back in the summer,
and they do live in thisfreestanding what our visitors
(16:07):
will know as the South Pavilion,and they come back in time in
July to ensure that their firstchild, who becomes Martha
Jefferson Randolph, is born inthat space and a few other
children too. They do not havesuccess. They have a lot of
heartbreak over the number ofchildren that they lose
together, and ultimately, onlytwo of their at least six live
(16:33):
births, Martha had survived toadulthood. Martha eventually
dies in September 1782, so shemakes it all the way through the
war years. Knows that that thecause is probably one has one
more child born, child namedLucy Elizabeth, and then maybe
(16:54):
six months or so after that lastbirth, she passes away. One
thing that I have noticed and atleast one other scholar before
me has brought up the birthweight in those children.
Jefferson records the birthweights of
Kathryn Gehred (17:10):
Classic Jefferson.
Diane Ehrenpreis (17:11):
Yeah, that's a good anywhere you can have a
math problem, right? But thosebabies are getting bigger and
bigger, and that last baby was a10 pound baby.
Kathryn Gehred (17:20):
Oh, wow.
Diane Ehrenpreis (17:21):
And so someone has already commented that it's
possible that she hadgestational diabetes, or she may
have had diabetes. They knewwhat diabetes was in those days,
but within that time, she was,you know, married to the
governor of Virginia. She waswartime wife, overseeing and
(17:42):
entertaining both prisoner ofwar British officers, a German
Baron, as well as Americanofficers, and working in her own
way to support the war effort,as well as taking care of
family, keeping the plantationsgoing, managing enslaved workers
(18:02):
while Jefferson himself is gone.Lots that we can extrapolate
from financial records, youknow, travel records. I think
part of me Martha Jefferson'sbeen short handed often that oh,
she wasn't healthy, she wasn'twell, and so she sort of gets a
buy. And I just feel like sheaccomplished a lot. Look at what
(18:25):
she managed to accomplish, whatshe kept going successfully as
a, you know, as a wife andplantation manager, as a
individual who supported the wareffort in her own right.
Kathryn Gehred (18:37):
It sort of strikes me that I feel like with
Jefferson, there's a lot offocus on, like, leading up to
the American Revolution with,like, the Declaration of
Independence, and then hispresidency and his time in Paris
and all of that. But like, theactual American Revolution, it's
like nobody remembers whatJefferson was doing during the
actual Revolution, when he wasgovernor of Virginia, because he
(18:57):
wasn't, you know, a militaryfigure, necessarily. And it kind
of feels like she's the victimof that a little bit, because,
you know, she passes away rightat the end of the war.
Diane Ehrenpreis (19:04):
To your point, he was not a military man, and
in fairness to him, the fullmight of the British regular
army arrives in Virginia afteryears of giving supplies and
manpower, and people areexhausted, and all of a sudden
it gets 100% worse for Virginiawhile Jefferson's governor. So
(19:25):
I'm not making excuses, but Iagree that it's and maybe
Jefferson himself, to yourpoint, might prefer that we
don't talk about, you know, hewas criticized for whether his
actions were sufficient.
Kathryn Gehred (19:40):
Yeah. So who is she writing this letter to?
Diane Ehrenpreis (19:44):
There are four letters that are almost exactly
the same, and the one that Iwould chose to read to you is
one that we know was sent toMrs. Madison. So if our
listeners go to founders online,you can find this letter the
editors so far have identifiedthat as Eleanor Conway Madison,
(20:06):
which is James Madison ofPresident Madison's mother.
Other scholars have put forward,and I think that they're right,
that it's probably to a womannamed Sarah Tate Madison, who's
the wife of Bishop James Madisondown in Williamsburg, who is the
head of the College of Williamand Mary at that time. And there
is evidence that that couple isactually in Thomas Jefferson and
(20:31):
Martha Jefferson's orbit, in away that I don't know that I
would be writing to EleanorConway, who is an elderly woman
at this time, but it's possible,so it is to a Mrs. Madison.
Shall I read it?
Kathryn Gehred (20:45):
Yeah, let's do it.
Diane Ehrenpreis (20:46):
Don't blink, or you'll miss it.
August 8th 1780
Madam Mrs. Washington has doneme the honor of communicating
the inclosed proposition of oursisters of Pennsylvania and of
Martha Wayles Skelton Jeffersonto Eleanor Conway Madison
informing me that the samegrateful sentiments are
displaying themselves inMaryland. Justified by the
sanction of her letter inhanding forward the scheme I
undertake with chearfulness theduty of furnishing to my country
women an opportunity of provingthat they also participate of
those virtuous feelings whichgave birth to it. I cannot do
more for its promotion than byinclosing to you some of the
papers to be disposed of as youthink proper. I am with the
greatest respect Madam
Richmond
(21:40):
Your most humble servant,
Martha Jefferson
Kathryn Gehred (21:46):
Okay, I know, I know she's doing something.
She's getting business done.
Diane Ehrenpreis (21:51):
She is very busy. This one is, if I'm
writing, thinking, this one goesto Williamsburg, so it's an
urban letter, but the otherthree letters are to contacts
who are in a rural setting. Soshe writes one letter goes to
family friend in AlbemarleCounty. Her name is Mary Walker
(22:13):
Lewis. These are all people thatshe knows, I think, in some way
or another. She sends one letterto Frances bland Randolph
Tucker, who is at a plantationmatoax. Lastly, there's a letter
that survives that was sent toElizabeth Phillips gates, that's
the wife of General HoratioGates, and they lived up in
(22:34):
Berkeley County, now WestVirginia, at a place called
travelers. Rest, all of theseletters are variations. The main
body of the text is about thesame, but it's interesting. For
example, the letter she writesto Mrs. Gates, she's especially
humble and obsequious in herclosure. And this one that I
(22:54):
just read to you is much morestraightforward, which also
suggests to me, someone that sheknows pretty well that it's more
of a some sort of friend oracquaintance that she's writing
to. So what's going on in thisletter? And what Martha
Jefferson was writing about wasa campaign that the women in
Philadelphia had launched inJune 1780, so Martha is writing
(23:17):
about two and a half, threemonths after the women of
Philadelphia had rallied arounddetermining that they wanted to
be active supporters of theAmerican revolutionary cause of
the soldiers who were in suchdifficult straits as far as not
being paid and not beingproperly clothed. So what these
(23:40):
women in Philadelphia, puttogether was a broadside which
is called the sentiments of anAmerican woman. And the primary
authors thought to be Esther DeBeer Reed, who was the wife of
Joseph Reed, the president ofPennsylvania. And this has been
very well documented their owngrandson, in contrast to Thomas
(24:03):
Jefferson, Randolph, who Imentioned previously, who had no
idea what he was looking at whenhe had a receipt from a bunch of
with a bunch of ladies names onit, the reads, grandson found
all of this documentation. Sothe Philadelphia women's
campaign was well known as earlyas when he published a biography
of his Reed grandparents in 1847and he he ran across letters,
(24:29):
particularly as Katy knows,between George Washington and
Esther Reed, about how thiscampaign would take shape and be
told that it was so successfuland that they had gathered so
much money, and that theseobviously white women of a
certain class who hadwherewithal and time, were going
door to door, collecting money.And so the Broadside is quite
(24:55):
lengthy, but it was printedmany, many copies. I don't know
if anyone knows how many copieswere printed, but what I think
is happening in this letter isshe says, Mrs. Washington, so
we're saying George Washington'swife Martha, has done me the
honor of communicating theenclosed proposition of our
sisters of Pennsylvania, that isabsolutely copies of the
(25:19):
sentiments of an American womanis was she has sent me these
broadsides, and she says thatthe women of Maryland are also
being successful and undertakingthis campaign, and then
testified by the sanction of herletter and handing forward the
scheme. So handing forward thescheme is very clearly outlined,
(25:40):
both in the Broadside, and thenthere was an addendum to the
Broadside the next day, I thinkthey got very excited. And the
addendum is this detailedoutline about how the campaign
will work. We need a treasurist,and she's going to keep a log
book of everyone who givesmoney, and then we'll gather the
funds. That is what MarthaWashington sends to Martha
(26:01):
Jefferson. This is not new.Scholars have known about it,
but what I noticed was somescholars, as you read on,
especially in Martha's closing.Martha Jefferson's closure, she
says, I cannot do more for itspromotion than buying closing to
use some of the papers to bedisposed of as you think proper.
That turn a phrase, somescholars have interpreted, is
(26:22):
she's being half hearted. She'snot particularly involved. She's
sort of, okay, fine. I'll sendthese along, but I'm not going
to take this up. But to me, andI ask you, Katy, I think she's
saying, This is so eloquent.This is so clear. All of the
materials are here. I'm tryingto get the word out. So she's
(26:43):
saying I can't do better thanwhat I'm enclosing. You, if you
think it's, it's a worthy cause,then you know, do what you think
is is right, which is, see pagetwo, is what I would argue.
Kathryn Gehred (26:55):
That makes sense to me.
Diane Ehrenpreis (26:57):
Well, good. And then, of course, Martha's
own actions. We don't know howmany of these letters Martha sat
down and wrote while she's like,six months pregnant in August in
Richmond, but we can see, youknow, geographically, this is
not Philadelphia. She's got totry and throw her net. It's a
completely different situationthan an urban setting. So what
(27:20):
the Jeffersons do the very nextday is they put a notice in the
Virginia Gazette, again,announcing this campaign and
saying a little bit more abouthow women can participate, and
that we want to use thechurches. There'll be a
treasurist and you can bringyour donations to the church,
(27:41):
and it'll be a funnel systemsigned from both Thomas
Jefferson and Martha Jefferson.So it's, it's sort of a part of
the story that people haven'tincluded, but it just shows that
this is not her wording that Icannot do more is just not been
interpreted as straightforwardlyand in Martha's favor, as I
(28:01):
think it should be,
Kathryn Gehred (28:02):
Yeah, she is doing more Yeah, like setting
things in motion.
Diane Ehrenpreis (28:06):
Very next day, she's on it. Thomas Jefferson
and Martha Jefferson clearlyworked together on this
campaign. But I feel part of thereason, a major part of the
reason we don't know about it inthe way that the Philadelphia
sister campaign has sothoroughly documented, is
(28:26):
because Thomas Jefferson, herfellow revolutionary and
activist, suppressed her story.You know, he took it away from
his family, and we're just nowable to sort of patch it
together. I'm sure he had a goodreason to do it.
Kathryn Gehred (28:44):
I've always heard he was just so crushed by
her death that he couldn't evenjust bear to talk about her for
the rest of his life. Yeah, Icould believe it. I have seen
this letter before because itmentions another letter written
by Martha Washington. So ofcourse, we had to use that in
our book, and we actuallypublished a version of this
letter in the Martha volume.Because where we don't have
(29:05):
letters, we would get creativesometimes, or we know that a
letter existed of MarthaWashington asking Martha Wayles
Skelton Jefferson. So then thatintroduced me to the whole
Esther de Burt Reid and thegroups of women in Philadelphia
that were raising money. Andthen that led me down a rabbit
hole of like, what actuallyhappened with all of this money
that was collected by the womenin Philadelphia, and there's
(29:26):
just not as much research intowhat happened. This shows that
there was, like a Southern wingof that. I think people are
aware of the sentiments ofAmerican woman. I think that
shows up in textbooks and thingslike that, but I don't think
there's as much understandingthat, like you pointed out, in a
totally different setting. Shecan't go door to door in this
plantation system, like askingpeople to give some money, she
(29:46):
has to use her network adifferent way to get people
Diane Ehrenpreis (29:49):
Umm cannot recall what visiting scholar,
involved.
but someone ran across reallyimportant piece of the story
that was published in thesouthern messenger. Her in the
1850s but this included, I knewjust what it was women did
activate. It was in play. MaryWalker Lewis, she clearly
(30:11):
delivered funds. She's the firstone to have cash arrive in
Richmond in November 1780 womenin Fredericksburg, women in
Alexandria, people at separatelocations. We have the names I
counted up give or take, around34, 35 women by name. So we're
not talking anywhere near thenumbers of Philadelphia, but
(30:33):
that's just the names of ofeither a treasurer's who
collected and was sending herfunds. Literally on the letter,
it says to Mrs. Jefferson inRichmond, you know, very
specific like, this is woman towoman, and I hear you, and I'm
very proud in her cover letter,this is Anne Ramsey in
Alexandria. She's very proud.She hopes to collect more, and
(30:55):
this is to go to Mrs. Jeffersonin Richmond, specifically. So
all of these women deserverecognition. And what I can
bring to the story is, if youstart looking at the dates and
you recognize that as the fundsare coming in, is the same time
that the British are leavingSouth Carolina North Carolina,
(31:18):
and they are invading Virginia.So I was very excited to find a
few specific instances ofpersonal accounts of the very
women who gave either theirtreasure, meaning actual coinage
species, their wedding rings,pearl earrings, in addition to
(31:40):
sending their sons off to war, afew of their personal stories
are quite horrific, like thesedonors become caught up on the
front line, especially inHanover County, and including
Martha Jefferson herself, whohas to flee twice that I know of
to avoid being captured or beingin the middle of, you know, a
(32:04):
Battlefront. One of the donors,she's in Hanover County. Some
women left Williamsburg,Jamestown, went to Hanover
County to their familyplantations with their enslaved
thinking that they would be safethere, that they were further
away from the river, from JamesRiver, and the British were so
(32:24):
well armed. They had so manyhorses. They just pretty much
had free reign of Virginia. Theycould go where they wanted. So
this one woman the entire, youknow, British cavalry in camps
at her place overnight, and thenthe next day, her neighbor, Mr.
Honeyman, comes to check on her,and he describes the destruction
(32:46):
and how there were just threewomen left there to meet the
British Army. And he said, Oh,you know, they tore down fences.
They killed and evisceratedanimals that they didn't eat.
They just killed everything.They strewn about all of the
grain, and it was just a massivescene of destruction. And I said
(33:07):
to myself, aha, that is whathappened to the Virginia ladies
campaign of 1780 I mean, it wasincredibly powerful to have a
multiple examples another woman,Mary Ambler, she had given,
along with her sisters, somevery personal items, and she
sickened and died there inHanover County. And her
(33:29):
descendant tells the story ofhow the British came through.
She hadn't been dead very long,and the British saw a fresh
grave. And of course, they saythe servant, but we know it was
an enslaved, probably houseservants, who were left, and
they said, no, no, that's whereMary is buried. And that didn't,
not surprisingly, deter them.They were convinced that that's
(33:52):
where the silver was, and theydug her up. Oh my gosh. And it
really was this woman who hadjust, you know, donated to the
campaign that Martha Jefferson,I would argue, as activist and
revolutionary in her own right,along with these women,
undertook to sort of say thatthis petered out, or that people
were half hearted. They werejust as energized and committed
(34:15):
as their sisters inPhiladelphia, just the way Mrs.
Washington had hoped. And MarthaJefferson did everything she was
to do, and her contacts, some ofthem, were taking up the cause,
and next thing you know thatthey're all subject almost all
of them, except for Mrs. Gates,up in travelers, rest in
(34:35):
Berkeley County are in peril.For me, it just makes the story
of the revolution, and therevolution as it played out in
Virginia over the years, thatmuch richer. You know, we've got
a 50% of the story that I mightargue we've been missing.
Kathryn Gehred (34:51):
Absolutely. So do we know, like, the amount of
money that was raised eventuallywith these treacherous reports?
Diane Ehrenpreis (34:58):
We do. We have an idea. Know, give or take. And
right before this campaignlaunched, there was a changeover
in currency because ofinflation. It's hard to say, but
there was, as far as a writtenbottom line on a historic
document, we might say, youknow, 1600 pounds, plus the
(35:19):
wedding rings in the ear wingsand and that kind of thing. But
with inflation, you know, maybethat was two, 300 pounds, we
also know what the Virginiawomen wanted this money to go
to, which was before the Britisharrived in Virginia in late 1780
(35:39):
and 81 the battlefront was inSouth Carolina and North
Carolina, and there was aterrible loss that included
many, many Virginia militia, atleast. And I think some you know
American regulars in Camden. Andalso, I'm a little unclear, but
many of these Virginia men wereheld in prison in Charlestown,
(36:03):
and they were in deplorableconditions. Perhaps some of
these soldiers were, you know,the sons and brothers or
husbands of some of the peoplewho donated, but we do know that
their hope was for theircampaign in the way that the
Philadelphia ladies ended up.They collected a lot of money.
But as many of you know, GeorgeWashington did not want to just
(36:24):
hand hand these soldiers moneythat shirts were made. Well,
this is what the Virginia womenprobably wanted to, you know,
also provide clothing or badlyneeded supplies for these
prisoners.
Kathryn Gehred (36:37):
George Washington's letter to Esther de
Burt Reid, I feel like it's avery characteristic George
Washington, where he's like,thank you so much, ladies for
this money. These men don't needmoney. But like, yeah, they do,
George,
Diane Ehrenpreis (36:48):
Of course they do. Somebody could send some
money home, but yes, so they'renot getting paid. He's assuming
the worst, right? That they aregoing to drink it up.
Kathryn Gehred (36:57):
He's absolutely assuming the worst of his
soldiers. But he says, makeshirts, which, you know, I'm
sure is very helpful as well.
Diane Ehrenpreis (37:05):
But so there's amazing little footnote to my
story, Martha Jefferson's story.So of course, all of this drama
happens in Virginia in thatsummer 1781, and then Yorktown
happens. Amazing, you know,miracle that the French arrive.
(37:26):
So the timing was such that allof a sudden, not only was
Virginia devastated and peoplewho had been donors or refugees
and etc, etc, but actually thewhole, essentially, the war is
over all of a sudden, which islike whiplash, it seems to me,
for people in Virginia. Marthaherself, we mentioned, dies in
(37:46):
1782 and then there's somecorrespondence between
Jacqueline Ambler, who's thehusband of one of the donors,
and brother in law, and so on.There was quite an Ambler
presence on this list. He writesas the treasurer of Virginia,
and says, What am I to do withthis money and these personal
(38:07):
items? Should we return them tothe donors? Because they're not
doing any good here. There's noaction taken. He writes again a
few years later. He says,literally this, you know, like
wartime, paper money is going tobe useless soon. Again. Here's
all of these personal items. Itgoes before the House of
(38:31):
Delegates, and they table hisrequest. That's the last I know
about the donations. They justdidn't do anything personally, I
hope that he at least took hiswife's wedding ring back and
sort of a sad end to a spiritedcampaign where women wanted to
(38:52):
do honor and act like thoseheroines of from antiquity and
meet every challenge, giveeverything to the cause, whether
it's your wealth, your time,your food stuffs, your sons, and
you know, they tried very hardto succeed, led by Martha
(39:13):
Jefferson.
Kathryn Gehred (39:14):
Well, that's fascinating. I've always sort of
heard of this as a littlefootnote, but it's such an
incredible story.
Diane Ehrenpreis (39:20):
Thank you. The more I was able to work on it.
And thank you Thomas Jeffersonfoundation all these years,
they're very generous in lettingme sort of explore, and to have
this sort of come together atthis time, with 2026 coming up,
it's very exciting. And I reallyfeel just like if I can't get
(39:40):
the word out for these women atthis point in time for what they
attempted to accomplish and whatthey experienced and what our
nation goes through in order tohave a democracy, then I
haven't. I haven't done my job.So this is great. I appreciate
the invitation to talk to youand your listeners about my
very. Short, sort of confusingletter.
Kathryn Gehred (40:04):
It's short, but it's important. It's important.
It's important. Thank you somuch for coming on the show.
This is a fascinating story.Wow, goodness.
Diane Ehrenpreis (40:11):
Thank you. And please come and see us at
Monticello. We are always heredoing women's histories. You can
see the little honeymooncottage, and yeah, the honeymoon
cottage, which you can walkinto, it is furnished lightly,
but it does show what it mighthave felt like in 1772 Well,
thank you. Thank you
Kathryn Gehred (40:31):
So to my listeners, thank you very much
for checking out this episode.We will provide links to the
letters that we mentioned in theshow notes, and I am, as ever,
your most obedient and humbleservant. Thank you very much.
Your Most Obedient & HumbleServant is a production of R2
Studios, part of the RoyRosenzweig Center for History
(40:53):
and New Media at George MasonUniversity. I'm Kathryn Gehred,
the creator and host of thispodcast. Jeanette Patrick and
Jim Ambuske are the executiveproducers. Special thanks to
Virginia Humanities for allowingme to use their recording
studio. If you enjoyed thisepisode, please tell a friend
and be sure to rate and reviewthe series in your podcast app.
(41:17):
For more great history podcasts,head to R2studios.org. Thanks
for listening.
Hello and welcome to Your Most Obedient &
Humble Servant. This is awomen's history podcast where we
feature 18th and early 19thcentury women's letters that
don't get as much attention aswe think they should. I'm your
host, Kathryn Gehred. I'mthrilled to welcome Diane
Ehrenpreis to the show. Diane isthe curator of decorative arts
and historic interiors at ThomasJefferson's Monticello.
Diane Ehrenpreis (00:28):
Thank you for the invitation. It's nice to see
you, Katy.
Kathryn Gehred (00:30):
Wonderful to have you. So first, can you tell
me a little bit about your workat Monticello?
Diane Ehrenpreis (00:35):
Well I've been here over 20 years, and my
background is in art history,and I've been fortunate enough
to do many projects here,frequently researching whether
objects can be identified asoriginal to Monticello or to
Thomas Jefferson specifically,or if we're fortunate, Martha
Jefferson, and that's reallyenabled me to work on many
(00:58):
projects over the years,particularly related to research
and re installation of the roomsin the house. So some of our
guests maybe have been back inthe last six to 10 years, and
has seen the second and thirdfloors open on our behind the
scenes tour. I oversaw thatresearch and re installation,
(01:19):
and then that was followed bydoing the same process for
Thomas Jefferson's privatesuite, the most significant
rooms, probably at Monticello,as far as understanding Thomas
Jefferson and his work practicesand how he liked to surround
himself, what objects stories ofpeople visiting these spaces or
enslaved working in thesespaces, and currently I'm
(01:42):
working on plans really are inplay to restore the tea room to
best reflect how it looked inJefferson's era. And people will
be very surprised to know thatit was its own remarkable color
adjacent to the dramatic andwell known yellow dining room. I
just been so fortunate to beable to use my art historical
skills, but also in workinghere, cultivated a real
(02:05):
background in doing socialhistory and women's history,
which brings us together today.
Kathryn Gehred (02:11):
Yeah, I wanted to ask, is there any Martha
Jefferson object that you'vecome across that's really
exciting in your career atMonticello?
Diane Ehrenpreis (02:17):
Well, of course, you know material
culture with Martha is neverenough, but we do have. We
actually are fortunate. So wehave silver from her first
marriage, and pieces that shebrought to Monticello and used
here, a beautiful ladle that welike to have on view. I'm very
attached to a silk pin cushionthat originally had little steel
(02:40):
pins that probably saidsomething like welcome stranger,
or that kind of little message.Those were imported from England
in the 1770s and this issomething that Martha Jefferson
Randolph saved. So we reallythink this is an important, very
personal kind of object. And ofcourse, it tells us about how
(03:01):
they used pins to keep babyclothes on, which we wouldn't do
today,
Kathryn Gehred (03:05):
Absolutely terrifying to think about for
Diane Ehrenpreis (03:07):
Yeah, and most recently, Thomas Jefferson
me.
commissioned a memento moriwatch key in honor of his wife
after she died. We're notexactly sure where he got it,
but certainly some sort of urbansetting, Philadelphia, possibly
Williamsburg, maybe Paris, buton one side, it has her, of
course, name and life and deathdates. On the recto, underneath
(03:30):
a crystal, is a plait of herhair, this beautiful Auburn
shade of hair. So it's reallythe physicality of Martha
wrapped up in that piece. And itwas very exciting to finally
bring that home, and it just,you know, it's, there's the only
one. There might be eight silverJefferson cups, but there's just
one of these watch keys. Andwhen you think about it by
(03:53):
extension, this is somethingJefferson wore next to his
person every day, and would havehandled it and thought about her
every day when he wound hispocket watch. So yes, and you
know, we always hope to findmore things, or there's clues
about what was here usingarcheological shirts and
tableware. And we could talkabout a lot Katy.
Kathryn Gehred (04:13):
Coming on a women's history podcast, how
does sort of working in historyand historic interiors? Do you
feel like that ties into women'shistory and your experience.
Diane Ehrenpreis (04:21):
That's how this whole project started, was
through an interior. You know,it's a domestic sphere. But
years ago, the curator at thetime, Susan Stein, asked me to
please start doing research andputting together a furnishing
plan for the South Pavilion,which many of our listeners
know, was the first domesticdwelling where Thomas Jefferson
(04:42):
and Martha Jefferson startedtheir married life. And that's
how I started working on herstory. Picture living in a
studio apartment in New York andyou've got one or two toddlers
in there while you're waitingfor your house to be built in
the suburbs. That's what it was.It was sort of like. For them,
and that's how I ran across andlearned more about the silver
(05:03):
that I mentioned and the pincushion and these types of
important objects that survivefrom Martha. That was my
introduction to learning thatthe actual documentary evidence
for her life was reduced to whatwe then thought was three
letters. And working on thisproject, a fourth letter showed
up. Those are the only letters,actual, you know,
(05:26):
correspondence, that survive inMartha Jefferson's own hand. I'm
sure we'll find more. I know wewill. But the content of those
letters is what set this projectin motion, as far as
understanding, you know, what isshe writing about? Who's she
writing on August 8, 1780, soabsolutely women's experiences,
(05:47):
the material culture that's leftfrom them, documentation,
probates, inventories,absolutely overlays pretty much
every space at Monticello in oneway or another.
Kathryn Gehred (05:58):
So tell me more about this project that you're
working on.
Diane Ehrenpreis (06:02):
Working with a young scholar named Nicole
Brown, and together, we areworking on an essay. It's really
about Martha Wayles SkeltonJefferson, how her, almost her
entire married life, overlaysthe Revolutionary era in
Virginia, and seeing if we cango back to the documentation,
(06:22):
not just these four briefletters, but you know, letters
that people write to oneanother, that might mention her,
or the overlaying where theexpense account tells us they
were and what was happening inVirginia at that time and
increasingly, the stakes gothigher and higher, as far as
(06:43):
what women in Virginia wentthrough as the theater of war
finally comes to Virginia inlate 1780 and twice during 1781
so that's the project we'reworking on, and we've managed to
find some really Interesting newmaterial. I was excited to find
sort of a gossipy letter whichsaid, oh, please share this with
(07:06):
Mrs. Jefferson. And the tone ofthe anecdote was very chatty and
warm. And you know, as you know,doing women's history, sometimes
you have to go by inference, or,you know, deduction. What that
would tell us if he's wanting tointeract via a letter with such
a warm and sort of almostgossipy, playful tone,
(07:29):
recounting a story about ashared friend. What does that
tell us about Martha? And Ithink that it told us quite a
bit. So that's some of the stuffthat's coming along in this
essay. Oh, great. That'sawesome. Yeah, you know, maybe
we should talk about, why isDiane having to go in through
the back door? Yeah, to find,you know, by inference, learn
(07:49):
more about Mrs. Jefferson'stemperament and her playful, you
know, maybe her sense of humor.And that's because most of the
entire epistolary record and hasdisappeared. So that's fairly
well known, I think for many ofour listeners, that Thomas
Jefferson and the way thatMartha Washington, Thomas
(08:11):
Jefferson, there's one referencethat makes it very clear that
he's actively collecting MarthaJefferson's his deceased wife's
letters late in life. So it'snot that he's just destroying
the their own letters betweenthem, but he's asked the
neighbor down the road, Mrs.Coles, for Martha Jefferson's
(08:33):
letters, and that's prettycalculating, right to like,
literally round them up, and byextension, he probably asked
Martha Jefferson's half sistersfor letters that she may have
written. This is why they're sovery scarce. And even a great
granddaughter records how no onein our family has a scrap of
(08:56):
paper that Mrs. Jefferson wroteon. So that's why we have to go
to extensive lengths. We willnot be defeated. We can tell
this story, you know, give hervoice back to a certain extent,
by using tools that people whodo women's history have had a
lot of success with thinkingabout things just a little
(09:17):
differently.
Kathryn Gehred (09:18):
Yeah, sometimes you have to use different
sources. So I've thought aboutthis a lot after working on the
Martha Washington Papers oflike, why you would choose to
burn your correspondence, and Ifeel like Martha Washington sort
of wanted her letters destroyedbecause she didn't want to be
part of the historicalnarrative. But it does feel a
little bit interesting thatJefferson would go to such
(09:38):
lengths to burn all of thoseletters, and it's sort of like
claiming, you know, the memoryof this other person as yours. I
feel like that's how it was forMartha Washington, but it just
feels a little brutal for ThomasJefferson to be like, I am the
only person who gets to know whothis person was.
Diane Ehrenpreis (09:54):
You know when you get to have the luxury of
spending enough time to reallyread materials and think about
them. But, there was onepublished in Jefferson's first
biography, written by hisgrandson Thomas Jefferson
Randolph. In an appendix, heincluded a very important
document, which is essentially areceipt of some donations that
(10:16):
Virginia women made to acampaign that I think we'll talk
about but it occurred to me thatthe grandson didn't really know
what this was. He didn'tunderstand that what he was
reading was a campaign that hisown grandmother had launched in
support of the war effort,asking her peers and contacts of
(10:38):
women in Virginia to supportsuch a thing because the record
was gone, there was no contextfor it, and so her own children
and grandchildren didn't knowher contribution, not just you
know, like much about herpersonality, but even her life
in tandem with Thomas Jefferson,or as an activist apart from
(10:59):
Thomas Jefferson. When I thinkabout that, and you have
children, I think, my gosh, youknow, everyone wants to have a
little bit of a sense of whereyou come from and who these
ancestors were, and probably wassort of a painful void that they
just didn't have enoughinformation. And we don't know,
(11:20):
but my guess might be ThomasJefferson probably didn't talk
about Martha Jefferson verymuch.
Kathryn Gehred (11:26):
Sounds like that. So let's talk about her a
little bit.
Diane Ehrenpreis (11:29):
Okay, let's keep this going.
Kathryn Gehred (11:32):
We're going to be doing one of the few letters
from Martha Wayles SkeltonJefferson, Thomas Jefferson's
wife. Can you give me sort of anintroduction to who this person
Diane Ehrenpreis (11:40):
Yes, yes. So Martha Jefferson, her mother,
was?
was from a Virginia gentryfamily, the Eppes family,
another Martha, Martha Eppes,who married John Wales, and they
were down in the Tidewater. JohnWales was an Englishman who came
over. He was a tax collector, aplanter. He dealt in the slave
(12:01):
trade. And Martha's own motherdied when she was a baby, very
young infant. And John Walesgoes on to marry three times,
multiple stepmothers that MarthaWales had brought in over her
and then through thosemarriages, she had at least
three half sisters who lived toadulthood, and she was
(12:25):
particularly close to her sisterElizabeth Wales, who marries
another Kinsman, Frances Eppes,also John Wales has a
relationship with ElizabethHemings, and so there's a family
connection that's very closethroughout generations, and
they're some half siblingsthrough that relationship as
(12:46):
well. Much has been writtenabout that, and I encourage
people to take a look at theHemings and monticellos
remarkable book. So MarthaJefferson, by extension, we know
there's a book that survivesthat was clearly her own book,
Telemachus. She and ThomasJefferson appreciated Tristram
(13:06):
Shandy so popular literature,classical literature, and doing
work on this essay. Justrecently, Jefferson, in a
letter, mentions Mrs.Jefferson's old tutor. I think
his name is Mr. Rose, and Idon't think we knew she had a
tutor. So we, you know, that isa great one short reference that
makes us learn a whole lot moreabout she was very well
(13:29):
educated. And also musicalkeyboardist who had a tutor. I
think it's Peter palum who wasat Brewton parish church. So
really schooled and classicaleducation, beautiful
handwriting, and then she almostcertainly had experience in how
you manage a plantation in theslave society in Virginia, which
(13:52):
we know she went off to do atMonticello. So we don't think
that she had to figure that outon the wing. She probably was
doing some of that at the familyhome called the forest down in
Charles City County. She marriedwhen she was 18 to a man named
batter Skelton, and they weremarried for about three years,
and she had a son named John.And then the record suggests
(14:17):
that Skelton dies 1768, otherscholars think that Thomas
Jefferson probably started tocourt her early in 1771 and they
marry on New Year's Day, 1772.Sadly, maybe six months
beforehand her one son from herfirst marriage had died. So
(14:38):
Jefferson and Martha in themiddle of winter, he brings her
to Monticello. I think he mustbe excited to see that one
freestanding brick structurethat I referenced earlier. I
think this was a goodintroduction to working on
topics with Jefferson, becauseyou hear the lore, the sort of
story that was passed down inthe family about how they
(14:59):
arrived. Knee deep snow in themiddle of winter, no one was
expecting them, and that therewas no fire or beds ready, and
then they find a bottle of winethe evening, and the in the
whole honeymoon is salvaged,because they just companionable
together in this freestandingbuilding, literally on the top
(15:22):
of a little denuded mountain.And what was so helpful for me
to learn early on was when Iactually overlaid that anecdote
with the actual written recordin Jefferson's memorandum book,
we could see that they onlystayed about a week, and then
they went back down to theTidewater, went to stay with
friends and family. And youknow, when you think about it,
(15:45):
like, oh, well, if I was anewlywed, even today, and I was
on this snowy mountain top withinsufficient everything and
completely isolated from all myfriends and family, I might say,
I think it's, this is lovely. Ican't wait to come back in the
summer, but, and by the way,they do come back in the summer,
and they do live in thisfreestanding what our visitors
(16:07):
will know as the South Pavilion,and they come back in time in
July to ensure that their firstchild, who becomes Martha
Jefferson Randolph, is born inthat space and a few other
children too. They do not havesuccess. They have a lot of
heartbreak over the number ofchildren that they lose
together, and ultimately, onlytwo of their at least six live
(16:33):
births, Martha had survived toadulthood. Martha eventually
dies in September 1782, so shemakes it all the way through the
war years. Knows that that thecause is probably one has one
more child born, child namedLucy Elizabeth, and then maybe
(16:54):
six months or so after that lastbirth, she passes away. One
thing that I have noticed and atleast one other scholar before
me has brought up the birthweight in those children.
Jefferson records the birthweights of
Kathryn Gehred (17:10):
Classic Jefferson.
Diane Ehrenpreis (17:11):
Yeah, that's a good anywhere you can have a
math problem, right? But thosebabies are getting bigger and
bigger, and that last baby was a10 pound baby.
Kathryn Gehred (17:20):
Oh, wow.
Diane Ehrenpreis (17:21):
And so someone has already commented that it's
possible that she hadgestational diabetes, or she may
have had diabetes. They knewwhat diabetes was in those days,
but within that time, she was,you know, married to the
governor of Virginia. She waswartime wife, overseeing and
(17:42):
entertaining both prisoner ofwar British officers, a German
Baron, as well as Americanofficers, and working in her own
way to support the war effort,as well as taking care of
family, keeping the plantationsgoing, managing enslaved workers
(18:02):
while Jefferson himself is gone.Lots that we can extrapolate
from financial records, youknow, travel records. I think
part of me Martha Jefferson'sbeen short handed often that oh,
she wasn't healthy, she wasn'twell, and so she sort of gets a
buy. And I just feel like sheaccomplished a lot. Look at what
(18:25):
she managed to accomplish, whatshe kept going successfully as
a, you know, as a wife andplantation manager, as a
individual who supported the wareffort in her own right.
Kathryn Gehred (18:37):
It sort of strikes me that I feel like with
Jefferson, there's a lot offocus on, like, leading up to
the American Revolution with,like, the Declaration of
Independence, and then hispresidency and his time in Paris
and all of that. But like, theactual American Revolution, it's
like nobody remembers whatJefferson was doing during the
actual Revolution, when he wasgovernor of Virginia, because he
(18:57):
wasn't, you know, a militaryfigure, necessarily. And it kind
of feels like she's the victimof that a little bit, because,
you know, she passes away rightat the end of the war.
Diane Ehrenpreis (19:04):
To your point, he was not a military man, and
in fairness to him, the fullmight of the British regular
army arrives in Virginia afteryears of giving supplies and
manpower, and people areexhausted, and all of a sudden
it gets 100% worse for Virginiawhile Jefferson's governor. So
(19:25):
I'm not making excuses, but Iagree that it's and maybe
Jefferson himself, to yourpoint, might prefer that we
don't talk about, you know, hewas criticized for whether his
actions were sufficient.
Kathryn Gehred (19:40):
Yeah. So who is she writing this letter to?
Diane Ehrenpreis (19:44):
There are four letters that are almost exactly
the same, and the one that Iwould chose to read to you is
one that we know was sent toMrs. Madison. So if our
listeners go to founders online,you can find this letter the
editors so far have identifiedthat as Eleanor Conway Madison,
(20:06):
which is James Madison ofPresident Madison's mother.
Other scholars have put forward,and I think that they're right,
that it's probably to a womannamed Sarah Tate Madison, who's
the wife of Bishop James Madisondown in Williamsburg, who is the
head of the College of Williamand Mary at that time. And there
is evidence that that couple isactually in Thomas Jefferson and
(20:31):
Martha Jefferson's orbit, in away that I don't know that I
would be writing to EleanorConway, who is an elderly woman
at this time, but it's possible,so it is to a Mrs. Madison.
Shall I read it?
Kathryn Gehred (20:45):
Yeah, let's do it.
Diane Ehrenpreis (20:46):
Don't blink, or you'll miss it.
August 8th 1780
Madam Mrs. Washington has doneme the honor of communicating
the inclosed proposition of oursisters of Pennsylvania and of
Martha Wayles Skelton Jeffersonto Eleanor Conway Madison
informing me that the samegrateful sentiments are
displaying themselves inMaryland. Justified by the
sanction of her letter inhanding forward the scheme I
undertake with chearfulness theduty of furnishing to my country
women an opportunity of provingthat they also participate of
those virtuous feelings whichgave birth to it. I cannot do
more for its promotion than byinclosing to you some of the
papers to be disposed of as youthink proper. I am with the
greatest respect Madam
Richmond
(21:40):
Your most humble servant,
Martha Jefferson
Kathryn Gehred (21:46):
Okay, I know, I know she's doing something.
She's getting business done.
Diane Ehrenpreis (21:51):
She is very busy. This one is, if I'm
writing, thinking, this one goesto Williamsburg, so it's an
urban letter, but the otherthree letters are to contacts
who are in a rural setting. Soshe writes one letter goes to
family friend in AlbemarleCounty. Her name is Mary Walker
(22:13):
Lewis. These are all people thatshe knows, I think, in some way
or another. She sends one letterto Frances bland Randolph
Tucker, who is at a plantationmatoax. Lastly, there's a letter
that survives that was sent toElizabeth Phillips gates, that's
the wife of General HoratioGates, and they lived up in
(22:34):
Berkeley County, now WestVirginia, at a place called
travelers. Rest, all of theseletters are variations. The main
body of the text is about thesame, but it's interesting. For
example, the letter she writesto Mrs. Gates, she's especially
humble and obsequious in herclosure. And this one that I
(22:54):
just read to you is much morestraightforward, which also
suggests to me, someone that sheknows pretty well that it's more
of a some sort of friend oracquaintance that she's writing
to. So what's going on in thisletter? And what Martha
Jefferson was writing about wasa campaign that the women in
Philadelphia had launched inJune 1780, so Martha is writing
(23:17):
about two and a half, threemonths after the women of
Philadelphia had rallied arounddetermining that they wanted to
be active supporters of theAmerican revolutionary cause of
the soldiers who were in suchdifficult straits as far as not
being paid and not beingproperly clothed. So what these
(23:40):
women in Philadelphia, puttogether was a broadside which
is called the sentiments of anAmerican woman. And the primary
authors thought to be Esther DeBeer Reed, who was the wife of
Joseph Reed, the president ofPennsylvania. And this has been
very well documented their owngrandson, in contrast to Thomas
(24:03):
Jefferson, Randolph, who Imentioned previously, who had no
idea what he was looking at whenhe had a receipt from a bunch of
with a bunch of ladies names onit, the reads, grandson found
all of this documentation. Sothe Philadelphia women's
campaign was well known as earlyas when he published a biography
of his Reed grandparents in 1847and he he ran across letters,
(24:29):
particularly as Katy knows,between George Washington and
Esther Reed, about how thiscampaign would take shape and be
told that it was so successfuland that they had gathered so
much money, and that theseobviously white women of a
certain class who hadwherewithal and time, were going
door to door, collecting money.And so the Broadside is quite
(24:55):
lengthy, but it was printedmany, many copies. I don't know
if anyone knows how many copieswere printed, but what I think
is happening in this letter isshe says, Mrs. Washington, so
we're saying George Washington'swife Martha, has done me the
honor of communicating theenclosed proposition of our
sisters of Pennsylvania, that isabsolutely copies of the
(25:19):
sentiments of an American womanis was she has sent me these
broadsides, and she says thatthe women of Maryland are also
being successful and undertakingthis campaign, and then
testified by the sanction of herletter and handing forward the
scheme. So handing forward thescheme is very clearly outlined,
(25:40):
both in the Broadside, and thenthere was an addendum to the
Broadside the next day, I thinkthey got very excited. And the
addendum is this detailedoutline about how the campaign
will work. We need a treasurist,and she's going to keep a log
book of everyone who givesmoney, and then we'll gather the
funds. That is what MarthaWashington sends to Martha
(26:01):
Jefferson. This is not new.Scholars have known about it,
but what I noticed was somescholars, as you read on,
especially in Martha's closing.Martha Jefferson's closure, she
says, I cannot do more for itspromotion than buying closing to
use some of the papers to bedisposed of as you think proper.
That turn a phrase, somescholars have interpreted, is
(26:22):
she's being half hearted. She'snot particularly involved. She's
sort of, okay, fine. I'll sendthese along, but I'm not going
to take this up. But to me, andI ask you, Katy, I think she's
saying, This is so eloquent.This is so clear. All of the
materials are here. I'm tryingto get the word out. So she's
(26:43):
saying I can't do better thanwhat I'm enclosing. You, if you
think it's, it's a worthy cause,then you know, do what you think
is is right, which is, see pagetwo, is what I would argue.
Kathryn Gehred (26:55):
That makes sense to me.
Diane Ehrenpreis (26:57):
Well, good. And then, of course, Martha's
own actions. We don't know howmany of these letters Martha sat
down and wrote while she's like,six months pregnant in August in
Richmond, but we can see, youknow, geographically, this is
not Philadelphia. She's got totry and throw her net. It's a
completely different situationthan an urban setting. So what
(27:20):
the Jeffersons do the very nextday is they put a notice in the
Virginia Gazette, again,announcing this campaign and
saying a little bit more abouthow women can participate, and
that we want to use thechurches. There'll be a
treasurist and you can bringyour donations to the church,
(27:41):
and it'll be a funnel systemsigned from both Thomas
Jefferson and Martha Jefferson.So it's, it's sort of a part of
the story that people haven'tincluded, but it just shows that
this is not her wording that Icannot do more is just not been
interpreted as straightforwardlyand in Martha's favor, as I
(28:01):
think it should be,
Kathryn Gehred (28:02):
Yeah, she is doing more Yeah, like setting
things in motion.
Diane Ehrenpreis (28:06):
Very next day, she's on it. Thomas Jefferson
and Martha Jefferson clearlyworked together on this
campaign. But I feel part of thereason, a major part of the
reason we don't know about it inthe way that the Philadelphia
sister campaign has sothoroughly documented, is
(28:26):
because Thomas Jefferson, herfellow revolutionary and
activist, suppressed her story.You know, he took it away from
his family, and we're just nowable to sort of patch it
together. I'm sure he had a goodreason to do it.
Kathryn Gehred (28:44):
I've always heard he was just so crushed by
her death that he couldn't evenjust bear to talk about her for
the rest of his life. Yeah, Icould believe it. I have seen
this letter before because itmentions another letter written
by Martha Washington. So ofcourse, we had to use that in
our book, and we actuallypublished a version of this
letter in the Martha volume.Because where we don't have
(29:05):
letters, we would get creativesometimes, or we know that a
letter existed of MarthaWashington asking Martha Wayles
Skelton Jefferson. So then thatintroduced me to the whole
Esther de Burt Reid and thegroups of women in Philadelphia
that were raising money. Andthen that led me down a rabbit
hole of like, what actuallyhappened with all of this money
that was collected by the womenin Philadelphia, and there's
(29:26):
just not as much research intowhat happened. This shows that
there was, like a Southern wingof that. I think people are
aware of the sentiments ofAmerican woman. I think that
shows up in textbooks and thingslike that, but I don't think
there's as much understandingthat, like you pointed out, in a
totally different setting. Shecan't go door to door in this
plantation system, like askingpeople to give some money, she
(29:46):
has to use her network adifferent way to get people
Diane Ehrenpreis (29:49):
Umm cannot recall what visiting scholar,
involved.
but someone ran across reallyimportant piece of the story
that was published in thesouthern messenger. Her in the
1850s but this included, I knewjust what it was women did
activate. It was in play. MaryWalker Lewis, she clearly
(30:11):
delivered funds. She's the firstone to have cash arrive in
Richmond in November 1780 womenin Fredericksburg, women in
Alexandria, people at separatelocations. We have the names I
counted up give or take, around34, 35 women by name. So we're
not talking anywhere near thenumbers of Philadelphia, but
(30:33):
that's just the names of ofeither a treasurer's who
collected and was sending herfunds. Literally on the letter,
it says to Mrs. Jefferson inRichmond, you know, very
specific like, this is woman towoman, and I hear you, and I'm
very proud in her cover letter,this is Anne Ramsey in
Alexandria. She's very proud.She hopes to collect more, and
(30:55):
this is to go to Mrs. Jeffersonin Richmond, specifically. So
all of these women deserverecognition. And what I can
bring to the story is, if youstart looking at the dates and
you recognize that as the fundsare coming in, is the same time
that the British are leavingSouth Carolina North Carolina,
(31:18):
and they are invading Virginia.So I was very excited to find a
few specific instances ofpersonal accounts of the very
women who gave either theirtreasure, meaning actual coinage
species, their wedding rings,pearl earrings, in addition to
(31:40):
sending their sons off to war, afew of their personal stories
are quite horrific, like thesedonors become caught up on the
front line, especially inHanover County, and including
Martha Jefferson herself, whohas to flee twice that I know of
to avoid being captured or beingin the middle of, you know, a
(32:04):
Battlefront. One of the donors,she's in Hanover County. Some
women left Williamsburg,Jamestown, went to Hanover
County to their familyplantations with their enslaved
thinking that they would be safethere, that they were further
away from the river, from JamesRiver, and the British were so
(32:24):
well armed. They had so manyhorses. They just pretty much
had free reign of Virginia. Theycould go where they wanted. So
this one woman the entire, youknow, British cavalry in camps
at her place overnight, and thenthe next day, her neighbor, Mr.
Honeyman, comes to check on her,and he describes the destruction
(32:46):
and how there were just threewomen left there to meet the
British Army. And he said, Oh,you know, they tore down fences.
They killed and evisceratedanimals that they didn't eat.
They just killed everything.They strewn about all of the
grain, and it was just a massivescene of destruction. And I said
(33:07):
to myself, aha, that is whathappened to the Virginia ladies
campaign of 1780 I mean, it wasincredibly powerful to have a
multiple examples another woman,Mary Ambler, she had given,
along with her sisters, somevery personal items, and she
sickened and died there inHanover County. And her
(33:29):
descendant tells the story ofhow the British came through.
She hadn't been dead very long,and the British saw a fresh
grave. And of course, they saythe servant, but we know it was
an enslaved, probably houseservants, who were left, and
they said, no, no, that's whereMary is buried. And that didn't,
not surprisingly, deter them.They were convinced that that's
(33:52):
where the silver was, and theydug her up. Oh my gosh. And it
really was this woman who hadjust, you know, donated to the
campaign that Martha Jefferson,I would argue, as activist and
revolutionary in her own right,along with these women,
undertook to sort of say thatthis petered out, or that people
were half hearted. They werejust as energized and committed
(34:15):
as their sisters inPhiladelphia, just the way Mrs.
Washington had hoped. And MarthaJefferson did everything she was
to do, and her contacts, some ofthem, were taking up the cause,
and next thing you know thatthey're all subject almost all
of them, except for Mrs. Gates,up in travelers, rest in
(34:35):
Berkeley County are in peril.For me, it just makes the story
of the revolution, and therevolution as it played out in
Virginia over the years, thatmuch richer. You know, we've got
a 50% of the story that I mightargue we've been missing.
Kathryn Gehred (34:51):
Absolutely. So do we know, like, the amount of
money that was raised eventuallywith these treacherous reports?
Diane Ehrenpreis (34:58):
We do. We have an idea. Know, give or take. And
right before this campaignlaunched, there was a changeover
in currency because ofinflation. It's hard to say, but
there was, as far as a writtenbottom line on a historic
document, we might say, youknow, 1600 pounds, plus the
(35:19):
wedding rings in the ear wingsand and that kind of thing. But
with inflation, you know, maybethat was two, 300 pounds, we
also know what the Virginiawomen wanted this money to go
to, which was before the Britisharrived in Virginia in late 1780
(35:39):
and 81 the battlefront was inSouth Carolina and North
Carolina, and there was aterrible loss that included
many, many Virginia militia, atleast. And I think some you know
American regulars in Camden. Andalso, I'm a little unclear, but
many of these Virginia men wereheld in prison in Charlestown,
(36:03):
and they were in deplorableconditions. Perhaps some of
these soldiers were, you know,the sons and brothers or
husbands of some of the peoplewho donated, but we do know that
their hope was for theircampaign in the way that the
Philadelphia ladies ended up.They collected a lot of money.
But as many of you know, GeorgeWashington did not want to just
(36:24):
hand hand these soldiers moneythat shirts were made. Well,
this is what the Virginia womenprobably wanted to, you know,
also provide clothing or badlyneeded supplies for these
prisoners.
Kathryn Gehred (36:37):
George Washington's letter to Esther de
Burt Reid, I feel like it's avery characteristic George
Washington, where he's like,thank you so much, ladies for
this money. These men don't needmoney. But like, yeah, they do,
George,
Diane Ehrenpreis (36:48):
Of course they do. Somebody could send some
money home, but yes, so they'renot getting paid. He's assuming
the worst, right? That they aregoing to drink it up.
Kathryn Gehred (36:57):
He's absolutely assuming the worst of his
soldiers. But he says, makeshirts, which, you know, I'm
sure is very helpful as well.
Diane Ehrenpreis (37:05):
But so there's amazing little footnote to my
story, Martha Jefferson's story.So of course, all of this drama
happens in Virginia in thatsummer 1781, and then Yorktown
happens. Amazing, you know,miracle that the French arrive.
(37:26):
So the timing was such that allof a sudden, not only was
Virginia devastated and peoplewho had been donors or refugees
and etc, etc, but actually thewhole, essentially, the war is
over all of a sudden, which islike whiplash, it seems to me,
for people in Virginia. Marthaherself, we mentioned, dies in
(37:46):
1782 and then there's somecorrespondence between
Jacqueline Ambler, who's thehusband of one of the donors,
and brother in law, and so on.There was quite an Ambler
presence on this list. He writesas the treasurer of Virginia,
and says, What am I to do withthis money and these personal
(38:07):
items? Should we return them tothe donors? Because they're not
doing any good here. There's noaction taken. He writes again a
few years later. He says,literally this, you know, like
wartime, paper money is going tobe useless soon. Again. Here's
all of these personal items. Itgoes before the House of
(38:31):
Delegates, and they table hisrequest. That's the last I know
about the donations. They justdidn't do anything personally, I
hope that he at least took hiswife's wedding ring back and
sort of a sad end to a spiritedcampaign where women wanted to
(38:52):
do honor and act like thoseheroines of from antiquity and
meet every challenge, giveeverything to the cause, whether
it's your wealth, your time,your food stuffs, your sons, and
you know, they tried very hardto succeed, led by Martha
(39:13):
Jefferson.
Kathryn Gehred (39:14):
Well, that's fascinating. I've always sort of
heard of this as a littlefootnote, but it's such an
incredible story.
Diane Ehrenpreis (39:20):
Thank you. The more I was able to work on it.
And thank you Thomas Jeffersonfoundation all these years,
they're very generous in lettingme sort of explore, and to have
this sort of come together atthis time, with 2026 coming up,
it's very exciting. And I reallyfeel just like if I can't get
(39:40):
the word out for these women atthis point in time for what they
attempted to accomplish and whatthey experienced and what our
nation goes through in order tohave a democracy, then I
haven't. I haven't done my job.So this is great. I appreciate
the invitation to talk to youand your listeners about my
very. Short, sort of confusingletter.
Kathryn Gehred (40:04):
It's short, but it's important. It's important.
It's important. Thank you somuch for coming on the show.
This is a fascinating story.Wow, goodness.
Diane Ehrenpreis (40:11):
Thank you. And please come and see us at
Monticello. We are always heredoing women's histories. You can
see the little honeymooncottage, and yeah, the honeymoon
cottage, which you can walkinto, it is furnished lightly,
but it does show what it mighthave felt like in 1772 Well,
thank you. Thank you
Kathryn Gehred (40:31):
So to my listeners, thank you very much
for checking out this episode.We will provide links to the
letters that we mentioned in theshow notes, and I am, as ever,
your most obedient and humbleservant. Thank you very much.
Your Most Obedient & HumbleServant is a production of R2
Studios, part of the RoyRosenzweig Center for History
(40:53):
and New Media at George MasonUniversity. I'm Kathryn Gehred,
the creator and host of thispodcast. Jeanette Patrick and
Jim Ambuske are the executiveproducers. Special thanks to
Virginia Humanities for allowingme to use their recording
studio. If you enjoyed thisepisode, please tell a friend
and be sure to rate and reviewthe series in your podcast app.
(41:17):
For more great history podcasts,head to R2studios.org. Thanks
for listening.
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