CLASSICS: Big Fur!

In this "classic" episode, Cliff Barackman and James "Bobo" Fay speak with filmmaker Dan Wayne and world-renowed taxidermist Ken Walker about the documentary Big Fur! Ken shares some epic sasquatch stories that he's investigated over the years that you won't want to miss. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys
are your favorites, so like Shay Subscribe and raid It,
lip Star and Righteous Yesterday and listening, Oh watchim always

(00:23):
keep its watching.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Boobo.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Fay Bobo. How you doing today?

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Pretty good? Pretty good? How you doing? Cliff?

Speaker 1 (00:35):
I am excited. I could barely get any sleep last night.
We have fantastic guests for you. You're gonna totally dig
this one. I mean you already know who they are,
but I cannot wait to announce it because there's a
new Bigfoot film on the market. But you know the
great thing about it, it's not really a Bigfoot film.
This isn't about necessarily about sightings. It doesn't have talking
heads like I saw the thing above the tree was

(00:57):
a fat doll. It's not anything like. Yeah, this is
an out of the ordinary Bigfoot film and I've seen
it and I cannot recommend it highly enough. I know
you've seen it. The name of the film is big Fur.
It was made by a guy named Dan Wayne, and
the center of the film, the subject of the film
is a world renowned like award winning taxidermist named Ken Walker,

(01:22):
and we have both of those gentlemen on the show today. Bubs,
It's going to be a fantastic episode.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
Oh yeah, I watched that movie three times now. There's
some twists and turns. I don't want to I have
always questions I want to ask him. I don't want
to wait too much about the plot because it's it
takes some It's almost like the Tiger King should be
called the Squatch King because it takes some dramatic turns.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, it is. It is a fantastic film, and I
cannot I cannot recommend it enough. Everybody in our audience
really needs to see this. And you know, I'm not
blowing smoke up anybody's skirt or anything. This is a
fantastic film because it is out of the ordinary. But
you know what, let enough of us talking. Let's get
right down to it. Let's let's go ahead and introduce
our two subjects today, and then they can tell you

(02:04):
about the film. They can tell you about their accomplishments,
and and then we have a ton of questions for them. So,
Bobo and everybody else who's listening right now, I want
you to meet Dan Wayne the filmmaker and Ken Walker
the taxidermist. So, Dan and Ken, welcome to Bigfoot and Beyond.
Who Ken you, I'm not a I'm not a hunter.
I'm not a taxidermist, a fishionado. I don't go to

(02:26):
the shows, I don't take I don't read the blogs
or the maga. So, but you apparently are like the
world's best and so at least in some years you've
been awarded the world's best in taxidermy. Tell us a
little bit that about that, like where did you begin
and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 5 (02:40):
Well, taxidermy is kind of, uh, it's kind of a
cool occupation. You don't really find it, it seems to
find you, uh, you know. And I've always been into
anything nature. I mean, when I was a kid, they
couldn't keep me inside. You know, when I was on
the fishing dock, that's where I was from, you know, uh,
dusk to dawn. I was out fishing day and night.
You know, that's just where I was. And so, you know,

(03:03):
becoming a taxi ormist was kind of a natural evolution
to what I do because I was also an artist,
you know, a sculpting artist. Three dimensional medium is my thing.
And then of course, you know, I was used to
follow my pops on moose hunting trips to feed the family,
and I just fell in love with the nature and everything.
So it was kind of a natural evolution, you know,

(03:24):
it kind of kind of fell into it. And then
over the years it turned out that, you know, I
was able to I was able to actually reach some
pinnacles in the tax army competition field. And so yeah,
as of now, I've won the World Championships three times,
twice in the recreation division and once in life size mammals,

(03:45):
and I've won a ton of other stuff to a
Master of Masters, judges choice best to Show, competitors choice
best to show, and then a lot you know, the nationals.
I won the Nationals and just stuff like that, and
I travel all around the world. I went to China
taught them how to do panda bears. So yeah, it's
been a great journey. And then somewhere along the way,

(04:06):
I bumped into I bumped into the sasquatch.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah. Now that's where the story kind of takes a turn,
because I'm sure some of our listeners are thinking, wait,
of a taxidermy bigfoot, don't you need like a dead
animal to make a something. Why do we have a
taxidermist on Well, Ken actually made a replica of a
sasquatch and that's the basis of the entire film that
Dan made. So why don't we throw out to Dan
right now and say, Dan, why don't you tell us
how you ran across Ken and what was the seed

(04:31):
that produced the movie Big Fur?

Speaker 6 (04:33):
Well, you know, I was wanting to do a movie
about taxidermy, and I started learning how to do it
myself as kind of a hobby, and I found this
forum on the internet and all the best taxidermists in
the world were on this for him, and I pretty
quickly got more interested in following along with these really

(04:53):
bizarre characters than I was in learning how to do it.
And I thought, there's I think there's going to be
a really interesting documentary here, because to me, it was
this kind of underappreciated art form. And that's what I
set out to do, was, you know, show what's involved
with taxidermy. And so I had a bunch of these
guys I was following along just really interesting characters, and
Ken was kind of at the top of that list.

(05:15):
And part of the reason was because you know, he's
pretty smart, and he's pretty funny, and you know, some
of these guys just take themselves so seriously.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
And Ken, you know, it was more humble. You know,
he's obviously one of the.

Speaker 6 (05:26):
Best, but but he just, you know, he had a
great sense of humor. And interestingly, he's known for these
recreations that he does. You know, these he did an
Irish elk and and a panda and a saber tooth tiger,
and you know, people talk about these things like, you know,
they're they're really amazing, and they are because they are amazing.
And so when it came time to kind of pull

(05:48):
the trigger and get started, I really didn't know what
the storyline was going to be, but I just kind
of wanted to get the ball rolling, and so I
sent Ken a message and asked him if he'd be
interested in being, you know, part of a documentary. And
then we talked on the phone and he was pretty
into it. And you know, I knew he had a
thing about bigfoot, but I didn't really know that much
about it, and I'd never really thought twice about bigfoot.

(06:10):
But then he told me he was going to build
a Bigfoot and that's when I knew I found the
story because there's going to be a middle, you know, beginning,
a middle and an end, and I can follow him
while he makes this thing and takes it to the
World Championships. And so that's kind of how the whole
seed started, this whole thing about Bigfoot.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Though I really didn't know anything about Bigfoot.

Speaker 6 (06:29):
So as soon as I hung out from Ken, I
started studying and learning about Bigfoot. And yeah, I didn't
really realize there was this international interest, you know, not
just Bigfoot, but all cryptids, and and I think that
kind of set me down this kind of path about
you know, mythology and what these things stand for, you know,

(06:49):
in a more broad general sense.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
One of the things I was impressed about when I
was watching bigfo is how much information Kim knew about sasquatches.
I mean, had know the sasquatch by Chris Murphy in
his hands. He knew about the compliant gait of the
Patterson Gimlin film creature. He knows a lot about sasquatches. So, Ken,
can you tell us how you started researching Bigfoot in particular?

Speaker 5 (07:14):
Once Well, I had two people come forward to me
that told me about sasquatch encounters. And these were people
that I trust inherently. I knew they weren't lying. One
was a guy I worked with named Wade Pearson, and
his grandfather had passed away, and before he did, he
gave him his car. But he sat and told him
how he was walking out of a logging camp in
the middle of the night in British Columbia and bumped

(07:36):
into a huge sasquatch and he literally went to town,
got on a train and went home because he couldn't
go back to tell the people what he had saw.
And then the other guy is Ray Levor, a very
famous taxi ermist. He's still alive. He's quite old, but
he used to hunt the Brazoo River and before it

(07:56):
was open he had the record alberta Bear trophy bear
for many years. And he said that he found sasquatch
tracks on a sandbar and he said they could not
have been anything else. Uh, and the guy knows. So
that got me investigating right away, because I thought, wait
a minute, and so then I started quizzing every every
hunter who came through my shop, and man, the stuff

(08:19):
that I came up with was incredible. I go that
the people told me. I didn't realize people I knew
had seen them, but they just don't tell anyone. And
then so I just I just soaked up all the
knowledge I could. I tried to go to the most
credible sources I could, you know, like Jeff Meldrum and
people who take, you know, a scientific approach to it.
And then of course, you know, you got to You've

(08:40):
got to sort through a lot of stuff, but you know,
and then I started looking for people myself out here,
and it just went from there. So, yeah, I soaked
up a lot of knowledge on it.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
What is the story? Was it? When you're a kid,
you say saw it later?

Speaker 5 (08:53):
No, I saw it when I was I was actually hunting.
If you go west of Edmonton, there's a when you
hit the first main bush country, it's Blue Ridge White Court.
And I went to Blue Ridge and crossed the river
and then went down this old road we called the
Simpson Timber Road. We used to hunt bears there and
that country wasn't opened up at all. There was no

(09:15):
side roads. And about twenty miles down that road, all
of a sudden, I yelled bear because the bear run
out of the bush. And I realized it's not a bear,
it's a man. And this thing cleared the ditch one
jump and it was up on the road and then
it cleared the other ditch and then it ran up
a steep hill without slowing down. And even the thing
was running too fast to be human anyways. And I

(09:38):
was like, who is this guy? Why is he dressed
in black? Furry's going to get shot out here, you know.
And it never sat right with me. And the guy
with me said, is that a sasquatch? And I said, no,
there's no such thing.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
Man.

Speaker 5 (09:50):
It had to be a man, you know. I have
since gone back to the area, found the tree structures
and talked to other witnesses in it's an area south
of Kidney Lake and that's where they are. It's one
of the one of the areas where they where there's
encounters oh Man thirty years ago. So it made more
sense that it was a sasquatch than it was a person,

(10:11):
much more sense because everything about the sighting was not
within human parameters. But you know, belief is a big thing.
It forms your opinions. I know people who've seen sasquatches
and still don't believe in them, you know. So there
was that kind of hanging in the background, so I
drew on that as far as an experience. Another time,

(10:32):
I was walking through the woods and something hit me
with a rock, and I thought, maybe a squirrel dropped
a rock on me. Well, I know better now. I
was in tom Hill Tower country, and I've got witnesses
from there now too, So you know, I put a
lot of pieces together from my past, and then of
course I have all the new accounts coming in all
the time from people that come through my shop. So

(10:54):
I've been able to kind of weed through everything, you know,
if I get you know, similarities, similar areas from people
who don't know each other. And I've been able to
get kind of a broad view of where the Sasquatch
are in Alberta.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
About how many reports do you think you've collected, like
since you started collecting these things?

Speaker 5 (11:12):
Four dozen?

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Okay, pretty good? And even in that small data set
so far, you know, fifty or so reports, shall we say,
patterns are already developing, is what I'm hearing from you.

Speaker 5 (11:24):
Oh yeah yeah. And also to like I sort through them,
I really anything that could possibly give, you know, give evidence,
like if somebody says they found tracks and you know
two days ago. I mean I'm in my truck and
I'm racing. You know, people say they found bones, people
have shot and killed them. Those I try to follow

(11:44):
those up as quickly as I can. And I mean,
you guys all know the cier killed story that was
on our taxidermy for him that that came up to be.
And I was actually the first one to talk.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
To that guy. Well you were that was you? That
was me?

Speaker 5 (12:00):
I was the guy. Yeah, no way, yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
That was me.

Speaker 4 (12:04):
I was on the I went there to find the
body with with Meldrum and Derek and them guys.

Speaker 5 (12:09):
Yeah, because I actually I was the one that I
called Derek and I said, you know, get in touch
with this guy and uh. And then I never heard anything.
So then I ended up calling Tyler Huggins and I
tried to get him on it. I said, you know,
there's a possibility that you know, I'm two weeks behind
the shooting.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (12:26):
You know, I don't care who who proves it. I don't,
I don't, I really don't care. I just want somebody
to I have since had a chance to sit down
with Justin and UH and talk with him and UH,
And I mean I heard the original report. I have
no doubt in my mind that it's it's real.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Me too, no doubt. You know.

Speaker 4 (12:46):
You know Barkertina filmed four of them there a couple
of years later, did you know that.

Speaker 5 (12:50):
Yeah, the thermal ones. Yeah, yeah, that was great.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (12:54):
No, And they'll be in the area like it's just
like the place where they call the Alberta habituation. Dan's
not telling you, but I called a sasquatch in for him,
and right where we were standing is the same place
that the word is that Jeff Meldrum saw one, and
he did see one as far as I'm concerned, and
he saw a really nasty, mean one that nobody should

(13:16):
be in there walking around. They don't know the backstory
I do. And you know, they just hide more. They
don't tend to change locations. They just tend to be
more careful if they know people are in there looking
for him.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
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Speaker 3 (15:29):
So, Ken, can you tell us more about that Alberta
habituation site? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (15:33):
Sure, you know, it's unfortunate that it got to be
such a public spectacle because it was never meant to
be that I was I was showing that and asked
to keep it quiet because of course the trapper doesn't
want his trap line being turned into a circus. So
what had happened is once I realized these these creatures

(15:55):
are out there, I started going through all of the
people I know in my mind, and there's people, basically
I know, people that are so knowledgeable that if there
are sasquatches, these guys would know. So I went to
a couple of really good friends of mine and I
called him up and I said, look, I'm not crazy.
Just listen to what I have to say. But do

(16:15):
you have any accounts of sasquatches up in that country
where you guys are? And the guy said, you're not
going to believe this. I can't believe you're asking me
that question. He says, I just had to go with
my brother and pull all his traps. He says, he's
being harassed by these things. And then he said, yeah,
and they built a big nest that they were living in.

(16:37):
He's found and he's seen seven of them, and just
went on and on and so as soon as he
said there was a nest and there was like and
this was already in the winter, and there was scat
all over the place, he said, the thing I had
crapped about thirty times around the edge of this nest.
I said, we need to go collect that. I says,
it'll have DNA evidence. And I had a heck of

(16:58):
a time getting them to draw map, but he finally did,
and we went up there and that's when we found
the I went in there and I found out where
the area was, and we dug up the nest and
I filled up five bags full of frozen scat. I
videotaped that I have the videotape somewhere, but you know,
this is how it kind of started. And then I

(17:20):
started getting all of the accounts and what happened. And
then I started exploring the area and myself, and there
was another I got followed by one when I was
in there on the river. Now, there were some hunters
that got run out of an area. Now on the
way out, they told the trapper don't ever go in there.
They wouldn't say why, but they said, just watch those

(17:40):
stone piles on the cliffs. And he said, you'll you know.
So I went in there and I found the stone piles,
and so I went farther down the trail. I looked
for some tracks, and when I came back, when I
hit the crossroads, something was had been standing there that
stunk so bad that I could hardly breathe. And it
was it smelt like rotten grass in a bag in

(18:04):
a hundred degree weather, mixed with bo with vomit. I mean,
it was just it was just an awful, offensive smell.
And then then the breeze just took the smell away,
and I realized whatever I smelt was standing right here.
And then that's when all the hair started going up
on my arms, on my back, on my neck, and
I realized there was something watching me and real close.

(18:25):
I've never felt like that, and so I brought another
There was another guy that I had been talking to
and he wanted to go in really badly with me.
So I called up the trapper and they said, look,
if you trust this guy, you know, go ahead. So
I went in there. I brought the guy, and of
course all the tree structures. The guy went kind of crazy,
like there's so much stuff there to look at, and

(18:49):
then down the road, I guess he a lot of
people get delusions of grandeur. They think that they're going
to be I don't know, Neil Armstrong walking on the
moon because of something that they found, you know, And
then they wanted all to themselves. And so he started
going to other investigators and trying to bring them into
the area, which I strongly advised him against. And so

(19:13):
that area ended up becoming known whether through blogs. The
very first survivor man Bigfoot, was filmed there, and of
course another gentleman went in there and brought in doctor
Meldrum and doctor Bindernagel, and yeah, the place turned into
just exactly what the trapper didn't want it turned into

(19:34):
a circus. Now that's just one spot. Luckily I didn't
show the guy the other spots, because there's one spot
in particular where if you go in there, there's bone
piles where they've been eating, there's beds, there's shelters. They're
literally there all the time. And I just found out
two weeks ago that forestry found that spot too and

(19:56):
they clear cut it. So that was kind of a
loss really, But there's still all there's there's area, there
was another area there given to the natives, and there's
a lot of Sasquatch they winter in there, so that
that won't be developed. So there's still quite a bit
of country out there. I know where they are. But
the place they call the Alberta habituation turns it into

(20:19):
a bit of a circus sometimes with people going in there.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
You know.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
Yeah, Meldrem told me about that, and.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
He told me about you.

Speaker 4 (20:26):
He didn't say your name, but I was like, man,
that guy had the spot. He got screwed because I've
had the same thing happen. Like, take one or two
people there and then they tell one or two people
and it's you know, exponential and all of a sudden,
it's it's on the internet and people are going to
your spot and then it's ruined.

Speaker 5 (20:40):
Yeah. Well it was kind of fun because I found
out that no matter how many people go in there,
they're still there, and they seem to like to watch
who comes and goes. You know what if I take
my friends in there now, because it's not a big
deal anymore. The trapper is actually sold that his part
of the trap line in there. He still goes in
that country, but you know, he's not involved anymore with

(21:02):
the actual trap line, so it's loosened up a little bit.
But I mean I took Dan in there, and what
happens is they all seem to gather in there just
before they go up in the mountains for the winter.
You know, there seems to be a gathering place and
that's why those big structures are there. This is my
theory because the trapper told me they all show up
around October and they leave as soon as the snow

(21:24):
hits in November. And so Dan and I were up
there at the beginning of November, and so I told Dan,
I said, you know, we were drinking wine by the
fire right at the berm there where. Doctor Meldrum saw
the one, and I says, if I make a quick call,
I says, likely one will come and check us out.
You've got to do a quick call because you don't

(21:45):
want want him to hear it twice. If here's a twice,
he knows you're fake. Right, So I gave one of
those wooloop calls and I told Dan, I said, you know,
his dog didn't even raise its head. Dog Betty was
curled up there, and I said, does your dog ever
shake and pee itself and go crazy? He said no,
And I said, well I don't have mystical magical powers

(22:07):
over your dog, right, I said, okay, just wait. About
ten minutes later, that dog and it was fixed on
that ridge down down wind, looking right at that and
it was trying to bark and it was just shaking.
And I said, there's one on the ridge right now,
crept up there and he's having a look at us,
and now he's going to leave because he's busted and
you don't like it. And within about five minutes, five

(22:29):
to ten minutes, Betty had called him down, but it
was there. You know, they sneak in to have a
look at you.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Now is that the general technique that you choose to
use when you're doing field work as you go, just
be a human for a little while and make a
couple of noises that they might be interested in. Just
and wait.

Speaker 5 (22:45):
Yeah, when I do the calls, like a lot of times,
like when I took some girls girl tax at Ermist's
and I had a girl from London with me and
Alice Markham from Hollywood and a few other people, I
just told him just to you know, just listen real carefully.
And so I just did a quick call and right

(23:06):
away you heard a branch break. I very rarely hear
a tree knock in there, very rarely. If ever, they
really like to whistle. You'll be walking along and all
of a sudden, you know, you'll hear them. And I've
been able to whistle back and have them answer me.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
So, Dan, you were at this place and you got
to hear all this for yourself. What was your take
on it? Well, you know, it's pretty weird. I mean
it was dark. You know, my dog certainly freaked out.
You know, I can't say I'm one hundred percent convinced
there was a sasquatch there. That's something certainly freaked out.

Speaker 6 (23:39):
My dog and I spent more time in that area,
you know, with Ken, but also without can. I camped
there for a couple of weeks, and it was I
was surprised that just how.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Remote that area really is.

Speaker 6 (23:52):
You know, there's there's nobody there except the occasional logging
truck or oil and gas truck. But you know, I
was in there for a couple of days without seeing
a single soul. And then another time Ken and I
went with Dawn, one of the taxidermists that's in Big Fur,
to go look at a siding that she had, which
isn't very far from there, I mean by Canadian standards,

(24:15):
it's just kind of like down the road. And you know,
we took four wheelers in there, and yeah, that's a big,
vast wilderness. It certainly wouldn't be hard for an intelligent
animal to avoid humans back in there.

Speaker 5 (24:31):
Okay, well listen, I'll tell you something really cool. The trapper,
like these trappers, they see things that we don't. You know,
when we were digging up the nest for this gat,
the trapper said, it goes, take a look at this,
look at this. And I looked up and you know,
the nests are always under a big tree, and this
was under a big tree with big, big branches, and

(24:54):
right about eye level. I'm about five eleven and right
about my eye level, we're two branches about four feet
of heart. You know, they they went into like a y.
They both came out at an angle forty five degree
angle from each other. There was two spots about eleven
inches wide wore into the branches where something when it

(25:14):
stood up, always grabbed in the same place like handgrips.
Like he rocked back and forth. But you know, he
spent a lot of time in that nest, and when
he stood up, he grabbed the branches in the same place,
and he actually wore the bark down and about two
eleven inch wide handgrips. I would have never saw that,
but the trappers they see everything. And he says, whatever

(25:35):
was standing here always grabbed these branches in the same place,
like out of habit, and its hand, its hand grips
were about eye level with the five five eleven guy.
So that was really interesting. And the other thing that
happened is there was a there had been a trap

(25:56):
set near that bed for whatever reason. What happens is
everything from that bed inwards from that trap line. The
traps were robbed. They were Martin boxes. And what they
did is they have a con of bear trap for
pine Martin and there's one kind of bait that the
pine Martins touched it and nothing else does, so you

(26:17):
keep the other animals out. And it's called Martin magic.
It's basically rendered fish oil and skunk oil, and it's
cubes of beaver meat soaked in skunk oil and rotten
fish oil, and it's unpalable for most animals, but the
Martins go into the traps. Well, the trapper told me.

(26:37):
He says that the sasquatches cannot resist it. He says
they chew the bark off the tree where he smears
it on, and he says they take every piece of
bait out of his traps. So they would take the
trap out of the box and leave it hanging still set.
They would reach up they would take the meat out,
and he says, and every single time it did that,
it put three rocks on top of the Martin box,
and he thought somebody was jacking with them. Now, these

(27:00):
guys have grizzly bears destroying sets all the time, and
grizzly bears are protected and you're not allowed to harm
them or haze them or anything like that. But every
now and then a three thirty conniber gets set, you know,
and whatever was stealing from these traps got caught in
this three thirty connibear. Now, if you're three thirty, conniber
is a body grip trap. It's if it gets on
a bear or something like that, you know, something really strong.

(27:23):
I'll get it off, but it kind of spooks them.
But what ended up happening was whatever got its foot
stuck in this trap pulled the hard and steel apart
within thirty feet, which I've talked to people and they
told me that's impossible. I mean, if you tied it
between two tractors, you could do it. But whatever pulled
this trap apart had to have had the strength of

(27:45):
two tractors, you know. And so when the snow finally melted,
I went out there, got on my hands and knees,
and I collected a whole bag of hair from where
this happened, including some with skin attached. I mailed that
to John bindernakel got lost. Its vanished. There's no trace
of it. Nobody can find it.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
It's gone because he passed away. Is that what happened?

Speaker 5 (28:05):
Well? Yeah, And Tyler was the guy who was chasing
after it, and he said that he was a little
confused about things around the end, but apparently he was
supposed to have sent it to somebody who was looking
for samples to test. Yeah, and then and basically Tyler knows.
I told I sent Tyler after because once I, once

(28:27):
I left my house, as far as I'm concerned, it
was gone. I even I have a photograph of it.
And it was a lot and I remember John called
me and says, that's an awful lot of hair. And
I said, yeah, but it was an unusual circumstance. And
I told him what happened. Yeah, And that was that.
And then that was you know. So I'm pretty careful
with anything I call evidence nowadays.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
Never give away the whole never ever give away the
whole sample of anything.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Always keeps someing well.

Speaker 5 (28:53):
And that's there. And there's a trick. There's a part
to that story because somebody or something came back after
the snow melted and carried away that entire nest and
sanitized the whole area. I just made it look like
there was nothing there. And I assumed that the trapper
was mad at me, because this guy's you know, if

(29:13):
he gets mad at you're in trouble. And I thought
maybe he was mad at me and he moved it.
Because I don't know any creature other than people that
will clean up after themselves. I've since gotten a lot
of accounts of sasquatch actually doing that. But this thing
came back. It knew that we had been messing with
the site, and it sanitized. They cleaned it up, and

(29:34):
I thought that maybe there was a chance that the
trapper was mad at me and planted the hair there.
This is why I didn't trust the sample one hundred
percent at the time. I since talked to the trapper
because he's the only one who could have gone back there.
Nobody else knew where it was. And he said, I
told you I'm never going back there again, you know,
for his reasons. And so it was then I looked

(29:58):
up and I found accounts of people seeing sasquatches leave
nests and then coming back and finding the area have
been cleaned up. You know, that was before I realized
they were a hominid. I thought, you know, at that point,
it was early. I thought they just might be some big, bumbling,
lumbering ape out in the woods, which we all know
they're not. And so so I didn't keep half the sample.

(30:19):
I just sent it all and I said, if it's
and I told I told John, I said, if it
turns out to be you know, three different types of animals,
just disregard it. Because I told him that I didn't
trust the sample one hundred percent. But in hindsight now
I had to having talked to the trapper and knowing
that the story a little better, I gave away something
I never should have.

Speaker 4 (30:38):
Yeah, I have a question for Dan when did you
start filming this? Because I'm trying to, like talking to
bind Naugle and some of these events I'm aware of,
I'm trying to put it in a timeline. When exactly
were you filming? Did you start like twenty fourteen?

Speaker 6 (30:53):
I first went up to Alberta in twenty thirteen, but
I think it was it was about a year later
that I went to that habituation area for the first
time and it really kind of changed the course of
the movie.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Right.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
So, Ken, when he in the movie you say you
found some of like DNA evidence, is that what you're
referring to the stuff that disappeared with bender noggle.

Speaker 5 (31:16):
No, I actually the scat I had it tested. Now,
they've been counting grizzly bears in Alberta, and the labs
here for the Fish and Wildlife are experts at pulling
DNA out of animal scat, and that's how they were
actually counting the grizzly bears by doing genetic profiles on him.
You know, they could say, oh, okay, this was this one.
He was over here too. They used dogs to collect

(31:39):
this scat, and I knew that they had this lab
set up to pull the DNA out of scats. So
I had five bags of it. So I happened to
be doing work for some taxider. We work for the
head of Foothills Enforcement at the time, and he was
a really good guy and he knew I wasn't you know,
he didn't think I was crazy. But I sat in

(31:59):
his office and I told him, I said, look, these
things are real and I have potentially have DNA evidence
of them. And so I brought in a frozen bag
of scat and I said, if you get you guys
to test this, because I collected it from a nest site,
you know it isn't like I mean, it looks like
it looks like black bear or human crap, you know.

(32:22):
And if I just found it anywhere, I wouldn't I
wouldn't collect it. But the fact that it was thirty
piles of it around a sasquatch nest, I figured, well,
I've probably got a good chance, you know, I don't
think it. So so anyways, he said, well, we'll tell
you what this is. He says, we run it through
gen Bank and it tells us every animal in the world,
he says, So if this is chimpanzee, he said, we'll know.

(32:43):
And I said, dude, I said, if it's chimpanzee, I says,
make sure you charge me with mischief, you know. And
I said, I said, I'm telling you right now, this
is the real deal. And so anyways, I gave it
to him, and now I was excited. I kept bugging him,
like the you test it, And then finally I just
gave up bugging him. And he said, they don't want
to test it, and they think you're crazy. And I said, yeah, fine,

(33:07):
just test it. Then I'm crazy. I'm crazy. Test it.
But then I bumped into him about a year later
and I said, did they ever test that? And he
looked at me and he said, yeah, we did. And
I said oh, and he said, well it came back inconclusive.
And I don't know anything about DNA, so I just
assumed they couldn't find DNA And I said, oh, I
was hoping you'd find DNA in it. He said, no,

(33:28):
that's not what I said. He said it didn't. It
was inconclusive when we ran it through gen bank, it
didn't match anything. He said, this is the this is
actually the result you wanted. And I said really, And
I said, so, you guys can't tell what it is.
He goes, well, unless we sequence it, and he goes,
that's expensive. He said, they're not going to do it.

(33:48):
He said, but they were interested to know the story
and where you found it and the circumstances. And I said,
are they willing to put in writing that it could
be what I said it is? He said no, they
will never do that. I said, well, call me when
they're ready to do that. And I could just tell
by his reaction I was and everything else is that

(34:08):
I think they you know, I realized, wait a minute,
these guys know what this thing is now. They now
they know that I'm onto it, and it kind of
spooked me a little bit. I kind of wish I
hadn't sent it in. I wish I'd sent it to
somebody else. And you know, but he's retired now and
he came into my shop here last year or the
year before and he said, he smiled at me and
he said, I watch the news for you every day.

(34:31):
And I thought, that's that's a pretty good Uh. That's
that's that's pretty good coming from him. So I think
through this whole investigation, he himself may have learned something.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bogo will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
Have you talked to him? The claim that killed one? Yep?

Speaker 4 (34:58):
What's the most the want you believe the most? That
made the most sense to you that you heard someone
say they killed the one?

Speaker 1 (35:03):
And why didn't they bring a body part back? Because
I get asked that all the time.

Speaker 5 (35:07):
There was a legendary hunter in Alberta and he used
to hunt sheep and unfortunately passed away a few a
few years ago of cancer before I had a chance
to talk to him about this subject. But it was
his brother that was out. He was either berry picking
or cone picking. Now, they pick up pine cones because
they take them to the forestry and then they use

(35:28):
them for planting seedlings and then they you know, tree
planters come and put them back, and so they'll go
out there and they get paid for these. Or they
picked berries. But there's one spot that ties into the
same area, but it's farther north where nobody goes in there.
It's just too spooky. And that's where they were. And

(35:49):
he turned around and there was a sasquatch standing with
the kids, his kids or his kids. Yeah, So he
he had, like everybody has a gun for bear protection.
And so what he did is he shot the sasquatch
and it screamed and freaked out and ran away. So anyways,
he went and got his his cousin or his brother

(36:13):
who was a legendary tracker, and they tracked this thing.
And I know his son real well, and his son
said they couldn't find it.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Well.

Speaker 5 (36:20):
Then I talked to the trapper later, and the trapper
knew this guy really well, and he looked at me
and he said, he said, did they tell you that
he didn't find it? And I thought, oh, wait, a minute,
you know, And he said no, he said, that isn't
the truth. And I said, you don't even have to
tell me what happened. I said, I know what happened.
I said, they got themselves into some trouble and I

(36:41):
guess this thing. They went down a blind canyon and
when they got into where there there was a bunch
of them waiting for him, and he said they almost
didn't make it out, but he just said that, yeah,
they got they got ambushed. And the other the other
story was our anecdote was there's a guy who lives
right in town here and I've known him since for years.

(37:03):
He's roughly the same age as me, and he was
out hunting with his uncle and a place north of
a place called Fawcett Lake by a lesser Slave Lake,
and that's also an area of activity. Actually have a
fishing wilife officer that relates accounts from there to me
from the native community. But he said that he found
these tracks, and he tried to tell his uncle that

(37:23):
he found these giant people tracks, you know, and his
uncle laughed at him. And so the next day they
went by a bury patch and there was this what
he thought was a giant black bear on the ground
eating berries, and so he shot it with an old
three to eight Norma magnum, and he says, this thing
jumped up to his feet, he said, about nine feet tall,

(37:43):
he says, and turned and looked at him, put his
hands over the exit wound, and screamed at him and
ran away. So he went and got his uncle, and
his uncle took a look at the tracks. The blood
grabbed the kid, threw him in the truck, never even
picked up his camp, just drove out, never said a
word to him, drove out. And that was odd. And
so this guy is, you know, he always told me

(38:04):
that if I would have followed it out, I found it.
And I told him, I says, if you'd have followed it,
they probably wouldn't have found you. For one thing. And
he actually did see another one on the on the
place we call the Big Stone Flats, and he took
a shot at some milk, and he emptied his gun,
and he said, after his gun was empty and he
started to reload it, he said, the sasquatch broke cover

(38:26):
and ran across the clearing. And he said that thing
was smart enough to know his gun was empty.

Speaker 4 (38:32):
But when you said he found bone piles, like where
they been eating meat. When I found bone piles before
they were in they suffered. Like all the job bones
were in one pile, all the rib bones were another,
like femurs in another pile.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Did you ever find anything like that?

Speaker 5 (38:47):
Well, I never got a chance to go in there.
I was actually I've been working on the trapper to
take me in there, and he was supposed to take
me in there this year, and I just got word
that they they must have found out they were in there,
and they clear cut that area. And they'll do that
if you report a sighting in an area, that area

(39:08):
a lot of times will be clearcut within a few weeks.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
We ran into that down here. A woman filmed one
in Roseberg in May of twenty nineteen, and she had
nine minutes of footage of this thing, you know. And
another gentleman who knows her, who actually put me in
contact with her because he's kind of a big footer.
He for some reason went and told the forest Service

(39:32):
and when they went back to the spot, the entire
area had been mowed down with brushogs. So yeah, if
you get if you have a you know, I always
think to myself, Like, man, if I had this pool
on the river that I pulled salmon out of all
the time, I wouldn't tell anybody about it. What are
people thinking?

Speaker 5 (39:47):
That's about us hunters? We all know that about our
hunting spots. We learned that a long time ago, you.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Know, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
Hey, can I got a couple of part questions for
you from the checking out with because job on some
and teeth, how much would you be able to recreate
from that?

Speaker 3 (40:01):
Like would you be able to go off of that?

Speaker 4 (40:02):
Like saying, like, you know, they have determined this thing
could probably bipedal because of the spread of the jawbone
and the way the molars are. How much could you
recreate from a gigantophyticis what we found, a gigantopithecus teeth
and job how much? How much could you recreate from that?

Speaker 5 (40:16):
Do you think, well, I actually actually looked at that
job bone, and then all you have to do is
just I have a gorilla skull here, and they're more
quadrupedal obviously, and then of course you have the the human,
which is bipedal. And if you look at the way
the head sits on the neck in order for the

(40:36):
esophagus to curl down properly, the jawbone has to be
shallow in the front. It's straight up and down on
a human. It tapers back quite a ways on the
gorilla because the head comes straight out. Okay, Gigantopithecus, that's
right in the middle. So basically what you have is
you probably have the same thing as a sasquatch, a

(40:56):
bipedal animal that can be quadrupedal sometimes of course, at
least at least has a lower slung head when it
does walk, just like you know, has that that forward,
forward lean, that kind of slouch. So basically, if you
look at you at the depth of the jaw bone
right in the very front on the human, the gorilla,

(41:18):
and then gigantipithecus is right in the middle, so it
obviously held its head at a higher angle than a gorilla,
but lower angle than a human. And bones tell you
a lot, like like a lot, like I have skulls
from you know, giant beaver's short face bears saber tooth cats,
And it's amazing what you can figure out from just
from looking at those skulls. It's it's and bones, it's

(41:40):
just amazing damn.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
I mean, you're obviously somewhat intelligent to be a great movie,
But how could you be not convinced that squatches are real?

Speaker 3 (41:48):
Actor all this?

Speaker 2 (41:53):
So you mean I'm only fully intelligent if I believe
they're real.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
No, you don't have to believe together a scouted.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
No.

Speaker 6 (42:00):
Oh, you know, I love the whole idea of it,
and it sure would be cool. I mean if they
if we if they were you know, discovered, you know,
in a way that that we could all accept it,
like you know, a type specimen.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
I mean, how much you know, we would learn so
much from them?

Speaker 3 (42:18):
Oh god, yeah, it's uh.

Speaker 6 (42:20):
It's hard for me to believe that so many of
the sightings are are real, you know. I mean I could,
I can believe that there's a certain number out there,
but as you guys know, when you hang out with
some squatchers, everything becomes sasquat.

Speaker 4 (42:36):
Oh god, yeah, we don't throw that out the window,
just go yeah, I did to do?

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Is the five best ones, the five most convincing we
talked to them. If one of those five is really
and that's real.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Right right?

Speaker 6 (42:47):
But then you know, there's there's just certain things that
I you know, I struggle with like how many do
there have to be to actually have enough genetic diversity that.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
There could be you know, a healthy population.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Three hundred is what it is in Chetas. Oh really yeah,
and there's certainly way more Sasquatches than three hundred.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Well there you go.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, I mean that's that's when I understand, at least,
like with the big mammals, they start running at the
genetic difficulties when the population drops about that number. Yeah,
you know, he expanded about five hundred. You're still looking
at a good sasquatch population even in the Pacific Northwest.

Speaker 6 (43:20):
I think, yeah, And you know that I don't think
that's beyond the realm of possibility by any means. And
I don't buy most of the arguments that people have,
you know, when they try to say that they don't exist, like, well,
I'm going to be found a body, you know, that
kind of thing, doesn't That doesn't mean anything to me.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
So, you know, it is a it's a very compelling thing.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
You know.

Speaker 6 (43:42):
When I'm back here at home and I'm you know,
doing my thing, I don't think that much about Bigfoot
that I go back up to Canada and visit Ken
and you know, within a you know, just a few
hours of hearing him talk about it, you know, I
always start to change my tune a little bit. He's
very compelling and and he's got you know, really good,

(44:03):
you know, intelligent arguments about it. So yeah, I wouldn't
say I'm one hundred percent believer, but I'm I'm.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
Close, all right. I'll accept that.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
Will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 4 (44:29):
Hey, Ken, I was wondering when I was watching the movie,
which again I want to recommend highly. You were doing
measurements the recreate Patty the passion given film subject, and
there's some discrepancy on measurements, you know, according to what
lens was used. So how did you determine the sizes?

Speaker 5 (44:47):
Well, I had, of course to know the Sasquatch book
and John Green's template is in there. And I'm not
one to trust anything. I don't research or verify myself.
So what I did is in one of the frames,
you can see the bottom of Patty's foot. So what
I did is I measured. I took that measurement, and

(45:08):
I know that you can buy the cast of the foot,
it's just under fifteen inches. And then basically I used
that as a measuring tool and I extrapolated the length
from the shin to the femur, the hip joint to
the shoulder joint, across the shoulder joints and everything, just
by using that fifteen inch or just under fifteen inch

(45:30):
yards foot as a ruler. And my measurements came up
exactly the same as John Green's chart that was done
on the site. And so I basically I went off
of John Green's chart in No the Sasquatch and because
I verified it with the length of the foot, and
then my own measurement chart.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
So you came out to like six or nine or
seven to two something like that.

Speaker 5 (45:55):
Yeah, just just a round seven foot mark, maybe just
a little under. And the distance between the whether the
rump was twenty eight inches wide. Now, this is where
I tell everybody how you can tell it's outside of
human parameters is if the hips are twenty eight inches wide,
those arms hung straight down. Now, if they hung straight down,

(46:18):
they had to hang straight down from the center of
the shoulder joint, which means the shoulder joint has to
come out about you know, three or four inches on
each side to get the center. So basically, by the
time you're done, you're looking at thirty six inches from
around thirty six inches from the center of one shoulder
joint to the other one for the arms to hang

(46:39):
straight down. So I told anybody, I says, grab your
measuring tape, go into any gym and try and find
the biggest guy in there and see if the center
of his shoulder joints are three feet apart. Says, you
gonna find it. You know, that's that's incredibly big. See,
everything that I do is based on pivot points. Okay,
where the where the joint is so, and there was

(47:01):
some really strange things like the shin is shorter than
the femur, which is ape. It's not a human parameters,
it's ape. And the foot is longer longer than a human.
So that means that when they if they're going to
be using the compliant gait, when they have to step forward,
that puts their in order for their foot to clear
the ground. Because their shin is shorter and their foot

(47:22):
is longer, it puts their shin bone parallel to the ground.
So when it draws that leg forward, that shin is
parallel to the ground, which people don't walk like that
at all. They have a far sharper angle and a
heel strike. And so because I was trying to wrap
my head around why is that shin parallel to the ground,
And that was why the arms were obviously longer, but

(47:43):
the joints were in the right place like you always
have because of physics. On arms, you have the same
length from your forearms your upper arm before you hit
the wrist, and everything was right, like there's no arm
extensions for everything. But like all of the and I
think Bill mun really was able to show that too
in his analysis of the of the tape. You know,

(48:05):
if if the shoulders line up, the hips don't line
up with a human, If the hips line up, the
shoulders don't line up with the human, if the feet
line up, then nothing else lines up. And and that
was actually what I had found too, just in using
that that foot measurement as a as a ruler, you know,
I found the same thing. So that's how I got
my that's how I got my measurements for for the

(48:29):
model I made. But I found that I could double
check them onto John Green's chart, and that I found
it was the same.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
What would you guess for the way, I think.

Speaker 5 (48:38):
The sasquatch are a lot heavier than people think they are.
And I talked to actually, Adrian Erickson was the guy
I talked to about this, and he's a hunter, you know,
and you know, as hunters, we like when we shoot something,
we want to know what it weighs. Okay, you take
a like a big, a big grizzly bear is going
to weigh eight nine hundred pounds. Okay, their their limb
their limb limbs are a fraction to the size of

(49:00):
a sasquatch, and that's where you know, it's your muscle
and bone that adds up the weight. And of course
they have an omnimoris for a stomach, like they have
a lot of cavernous area in the center of a
grizzly bear that the sasquatch doesn't have the same, and
it's got a lot more muscle mass. So where you
have a grizzly bear that would weigh, let's say, weigh

(49:22):
nine hundred pounds, a sasquatch that was of the same
size would probably be weigh upwards of twelve hundred pounds.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
You know, the model really is beautiful. Just a tremendous
piece of art, is what it is. I'm lucky enough
to have had it in the museum here and done
a little photo shoot with our big foot model that
we have in the shop, which is also very realistic,
but in an entirely different way. It was really cool. Actually,
it's really exciting, and I'm very very thankful to Dan
to bring it by or sparks fly.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
When Murphy met Patty, there.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Was definitely chemistry in the air.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
I got this eary eyed.

Speaker 5 (49:57):
Oh. I was just saying, did you see the model
before or I put the skin on it when it
was finished, like the sculpture of Patty before. Like I
look at when I look back at the film and
the photographs, I really consider I ruined her by putting
that hide on, because if I could have just put
a little more thought and get a little better hide
on there, I think she'd have been a lot better.

(50:19):
Because the model really was, that's underneath was really good.
I think that a lot of that hair muted it.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
That's kind of that was kind of what I was
going to go for for my next question here is
because at the end of the day, your model is
a piece of art. And I know how artists are.
I mean, I'm a musician myself, my wife is an artist.
They're never satisfied with what they do. Ever. But now
looking back, after a few years have passed and you've
created this amazing piece of art, what would you go

(50:45):
back and tweak for the next model?

Speaker 5 (50:47):
Well, I would. I would put a lot more time
into the head, the feet, and the hands, and I
would I would pay a lot closer attention to the
hair patterns and the hair length. That's what I would do.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
The patterns. That's interesting that that's a subtlety that someone
like a taxidermist would have to pay attention to. That
layperson like myself would never even think of.

Speaker 5 (51:10):
Yeah, well, the patterns, the patterns on the if you
even look, if you look at the patterns and gimblin film,
the patterns, the hair patterns are human. You know, if
you see a guy with a harry back, you know
how the hair kind of comes up and then falls
to the sides. You know, it kind of goes up
in like a fountain. Well that's the same thing, does
the same thing on her like the and that's those

(51:30):
are biological hair patterns that you can't fake with a
dead cow hide. You know, there's a lot of things
in that in that film that make it real to
me that a lot of people haven't even analyzed yet.
You know, I can just tell. One of the main
things that convinced me was real was I could tell
how heavy it was by when it was walking. You

(51:51):
can see the weight because what it does is by
swinging its arms, it actually uses weight momentum to carry
itself forward. And unless you know anything about this, like
you can see it. It's almost like a pendulum. You
know how a pendulum or a gyroscope does that. You know,
it moves in that manner. It's completely natural and flowing,

(52:12):
and you can see that it's got momentum and it
uses the momentum to save energy.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Fascinating. Now, Dan, the film is out now, Is am
I correct?

Speaker 5 (52:23):
It?

Speaker 2 (52:23):
Sure is.

Speaker 6 (52:24):
It was released last week and it's available to stream
on demand on just about any platform where you can
rent or buy a movie like iTunes and Amazon and
Google Play and Fandango and Xbox and on and on.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
And I cannot recommend enough that everybody should see this movie.
It is fascinating. It is very very much to do
with sasquatches, but not as a centerpiece. It's more about
the art form that recreated a sasquatch, and you can't
recreate a three D vivid realistic mode of a sasquatch
without going pretty deep into the anatomy and another features.

(53:04):
It is just a fantastic movie and it's a lot
of fun. I laughed out loud, and yeah, I laughed,
I cried. It became a part of me.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
You know.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
It was amazing.

Speaker 4 (53:11):
You get to see some sweet nineties Canadian mullets that
Ken sport, and.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah, holy god, Ken, you watch it.

Speaker 5 (53:21):
Hei you very much.

Speaker 6 (53:24):
If you go to the Big furmovie dot com website,
there's links to purchase and all the social media links
are on there too, and you can read a little
bit about the movie and watch a trailer.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
So Dan and Ken, I cannot thank you enough for
coming on and sharing your expertise Ken, and a little
bit about the film that's just come out. Dan. It
is fantastic and I cannot recommend it enough. I think
all of our listeners should check this out. But thank
you very much for taking time out and sharing just
about all everything has been doing with us today.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Well, thanks for having us that was fun.

Speaker 5 (53:56):
It's been a pleasure to be on here, and I
hope to get a chance to meet you guys in
person too.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Yea, well, thank you.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Very much, man. It was what a great conversation. Thank you,
oh you will. Thanks all right, Bob, So there's another one.
What a great conversation. That was just a fantastic episode.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
Oh it was.

Speaker 4 (54:13):
I mean, if you're looking for like some squatch slasher
flick or horror movie, this isn't it. But if you
want a great documentary, and you know, all I watch
these documentaries. I watched, you know, several dozen every I
mean I must watched fifty eight years sixty a year,
and this was really good.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
I enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah, I get my wife sat down with me. She
loved it because she's an artist and was so fascinated
with the way he puts these things together. She sculpts,
she paints, she does all these things, and she was
intrigued the entire way. It's just a great film that
I think has a wide appeal as well.

Speaker 4 (54:44):
All right, Cliff, thanks for getting Cannon down here. Those
guys are awesome. I was a great movie. I'm glad
I got to watch it. I recommend it to everyone
out there to check out big fur and So until
next time, thanks for listening, Hit like, hit share, enjoy
the show, Tell you friends. If you don't like the show,
tell your enemies. Until next week, keep it squatchy.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
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(55:30):
and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag
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