December 5, 2025 • 49 mins
Here's another "classic" episode from the Clobo archives! Cliff Barackman and James "Bobo" Fay speak with Forrest Galante, wildlife biologist and host of Animal Planet's "Extinct or Alive"! Forrest discusses his background in wildlife research, his involvement with the discovery of various surviving animal species that were presumed to have been extinct, and which other "extinct" animals might be lurking around the world awaiting rediscovery!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big Food and Beyond.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
With Cliff and Bobo.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
These guys are your favorites. So light Chase, Subscribe and
raid it five, stay and range, just go on yesterday
and listening, oh watching limb always keep its watching.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo Fay.
Hey Cliff, Hey Bobo.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
How you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Good Man? Good? How's going to you?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It's going all right. It's been an adventurous week to
say the least.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Yeah, yeh, I had four nights out and it was
totally dead in kyos and stuff like that. I mean,
it's beautiful and all that, but anyways, it hits the
bread of the Chase today.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah, we'll have to talk about bigfoot stuff later. We
have something a little bit more pressing on the desk today.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Yeah. We got a guy I first came a Wherever
a couple of years ago or whatever, maybe it was
a year ago, and he was on Joe Rogan and
then he actually was on Animal Planet after we left
Forrest Galante and has got extinct or alive it which
basically deals with cryptids because cryptois always just has been undiscovered.
It could be something that was known to exist but
hasn't been seen thought to be extinct for a long
(01:14):
time that it's rediscovered, so that could be a cryptos
species too.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, they're kind of called them a Lazaruth species I think,
you know, after the biblical story.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yep. So anyways, without further ado, this is Forrest Galante.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, hey, gentlemen, how are you good? Thanks for us
Absolutely great, the thrilled to have you on.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
By the way, Like I love talking to adventures and
people are doing more or less the same thing that
Bobo and I are trying to do, but a little
bit different because you're actually succeeding.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, so far it's been good.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
So yeah, I'm a wildlife biologist by trade and a
tracker and a rare species expert, and I do I
one of the things I target primarily is lazarus tax on,
which are animals that have theoretically been declared extinct wrongfully,
and so you know, I like to try and challenge
that notion and have done so, you know, many times,
(02:06):
but eight times successfully now.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So yeah, it's been it's been great.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
What were your biggest ones? That a leopard and what else?
Speaker 4 (02:14):
I'd say the biggest one ever, So we have eight
total rediscoveries now, which is it's amazing. You know, it's
seven more than any single organization or person has ever
done before in history. So we're really proud of it,
especially when we came from a stance of when we
started being like, I don't know if we'll ever find anything.
You know, Extinct doesn't mean hiding in a bush, it
doesn't mean around the next corner. Extinct means eradicated, gone forever.
(02:37):
So we were we certainly weren't as expectant to be
as successful as we were. But to answer your question,
my biggest discovery I think was actually the Fernandina tortoise
now tortoises in the Galopagos. You know, they're the icon
of conservation. Lonesome George was the poster child of conservation,
and he died in twenty fourteen, twenty twelve, something like that,
(02:57):
and since then there really hasn't been a poster child
for conservation. Well, in you know, two thousand and eighteen,
I discovered the Fernandina Island tortoise and animal only ever seen,
only ever reported once in history one hundred and fourteen
years prior by the California Academy of Sciences, never seen since,
never recorded, never documented, and we found that creature and Fern,
(03:19):
as we affectionately named her, is the rarest animal on earth,
you know, arguably no offense rarer than Bigfoot, because she
is the only one. There's only one of them as
far as we know, and it's the one that we found.
So that was that was really big for me and
big for the field of conservation in general.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Now, is it this one was hiding in plain sight?
That does it look the same as the other species
on the island or like, was it just differentiated by
its DNA or how was that the same?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
No?
Speaker 4 (03:45):
No, not at all that you know that I almost
I don't really dive into that arena, you know, of
speciation by genetics, because I'm not a geneticist.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I'm I'm a field biologist.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
No.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
The island of Fernandina is the second most active volcano
in the world. It's a standalone island that has no
other species of tortoise. So, for those that don't know,
every single island in the Glopagos has its own species
of tortoise, some have a couple, but Fernandina the newest
island in the Galopagos due to its age was not
known to have any tortoises except for this one that
(04:19):
was discovered one hundred and fourteen years prior by the
California Academy of Sciences. A lot of people, you know,
and to tie it into what you guys do, a
lot of people said, it's not real, it's a hoak.
There was never a Fernandina tortoise to begin with, even
though there was a you know, there was a specimen
sitting in the California Academy of Sciences, we.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Never hear that for us, No, I'm sure never.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yeah, And so you know, I knew about that specimen.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I've seen that specimen.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
I've worked with a couple people that work in in
the turtle and tortoise industry as biologists and done about
two and a half years of research, and then launched
the expedition to Fernandino, which in itself was a massive
ordeal and undertaking just to get the permits in paperwork.
And yeah, she wasn't hiding in plain sight. She was
hiding in a deep bush. But the only species that
(05:05):
it could be, you know, there's no other species on
the island. So as soon as we found her, we
knew exactly what we were looking at, now.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Did you take her back or did you just leave
her on the island, take a few samples from her
or anything?
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Or as I was saying earlier, the Fernandina Fernandina Island
is a second most active volcano in the world, so
it's a very volatile environment. Fern was stuck in a
small pocket of vegetation that was surrounded by impenetrable lava flow.
I mean it took us something like seven eight hours
in like one hundred and twenty degree heat just to
get to where she was crossing this lava flow. No quadruped,
(05:38):
no four legged animal on Earth could cover these lava flows.
I mean, it's just impossible. It's like walking on shards
of glass. So when we got there and found her,
she was super molnar, super dehydrated, and she was the
only one. So it was a little bit of like
a maral and ethical dilemma because we're like, we should
leave her, it's the right thing to do, but at
the same time, leaving her would almost certainly result in
(05:58):
losing her again, you know, not knowing where.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
The species was, she could have very easily died.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
So we grabbed her and we took her to the
Fosto Lorrena breeding facility on Santa Cruz Island, the main
island in the Galapagos, the same exact facility that housed
Lonesome George put her there, and she didn't leave her
water bowl for seven days. She was so dehydrated that
when she saw water, she just like, you know, I
don't mean to anthropomorphize these creatures, but she lit up
(06:24):
and she like darted in tortoise speed over to the
water dish and didn't leave it for seven days. So
we absolutely made the right decision. It sparked multiple return trips,
of which none have so far yielded another tortoise. But
you know, we've released millions of dollars of funding and
all kinds of great stuff due to the discovery.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Wow, so the world population, the world's known population of
these tortoises right now.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Is one is one the girl that we found for
in my goodness, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I'm more excited about the stuff that you're doing in
Australia because, like us, Cliff and I are both into
the thigh lest scene and we were down there, we
were looking for the AOI and I was really say
about your statist, say, well, I don't know if it's yours,
but I think you were talking about it. The university
down there in Australia has twenty five hundred game counc
are putting on a real strategic powterern not just randomly placed,
(07:11):
but like geometrically lined up to cover everything multiple times.
And I hope that think gets a yawi on it.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I'm not familiar with Yowie's. What's a yowie Australian Bigfoot?
Oh that would make sense, gotcha. Yeah, so I kind
of speak much on that. I know very little about
bigfoot specifically, but yeah, So the university in Cans, Australia,
they have this large systematic approach to monitoring wildlife and
(07:39):
far North Queensland, and like you said, they have this
massive grid pattern of these trail cameras covering huge space
spaces and they are checkerboarded in the sense of diverse
habitats and moving them from one one zone to another,
so you know, so to speak, anything that moves in
that region will be captured on these camps. And one
(08:01):
of the things that Queenstown University and researchers and myself
are hoping is that it could be you know, there's
the potential for it to be a Thilocene. It's an
extremely remote part of Australia where we know these animals
occurred less than four thousand years ago, So if the
dingos haven't taken over, they could still be there.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
As I say, is that their biggest enemy, the dingo?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, well it's a it's a variety of things.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
But long story short, the Thiocene used to range from
Papua New Guinea all the way to Tasmania. When people
first settled Australia, they brought with them canids dingoes. So
a lot of people think dingos are from Australia.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
They're not.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Dingos came to Australia four thousand years ago with the
first humans. Those dogs out competed them. Now, dingoes are
in Papua New Guinea, they are in Australia, but they
are not in Tasmania. So the last stronghold for the
Thilocene was Tasmania, you know, which we successfully eradicated them
from by placing a bounty on their head. But in Australia,
(08:57):
in the mainland, where we brought dingos four thousand years ago,
they were out competed by the dingoes. Now, the reason
that I think Australia is so fascinating. One, there's lots
of sightings and other things like that. But two is
dingos are they're a planes animal. They don't like certain habitat,
not to say that they won't traverse through it. And
they're they're a far better competitor than a Thilocene. But
(09:18):
they could easily avoid niche habitats within far North Queensland
Queensland that Thilocene would prefer to occupy. So in spaces
where thiloceine and habitats where thylosine and dingo would overlap,
dingo will win every time. But in certain spaces where
Dingo would choose not to occupy based on the ecology
(09:38):
of the environment, Thilocene could continue to thrive.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, it's a marsupial. Were they pack animals? I don't
even know.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
No, as far as we know about their social dynamic,
they were not a pack animal.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
There are.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
They are marsupial carnivore, the largest marsupial carnivore that ever existed.
They had small social structures, so you know, a few
of them at a time, but not certainly not a
pack that would be the wrong to monology.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Now, if you're involved in a study of the violus
scene and trying to quote unquote rediscover them, I guess
you've certainly seen your fair share of photographs or purported
photographs or small videos of these things out in the wild,
which I'm assuming probably sparks some interest into this project, like, Hey,
these might be real. I'm curious, because I'm faced with
this quite a bit. What do you do, as a
(10:24):
legitimate scientist instead of like a citizen scientist like myself?
What do you do to try to determine the authenticity
of photographs or videos of these rare, possibly extinct or
not even supposedly real species? Like what do you need
to do to kind of convince yourself? Like this is
a maybe, it's.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
A good question.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
You know, we have a very systematic approach to wildlife
that we take, which is, you know, I have these
spreadsheets that they're spreadsheets on spreadsheets.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
They're absolutely awful.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Where we you know, plug in every single sighting and
every single report and put in coordinates or approximate locations
and then we map at all. You know, So in
the case of the thyloscene, right, Okay, this report popped
up here, and this report popped up here, and this
report popped up here. And then when you look at
when you put all those into a map, you're like, oh,
it turns out those are only you know, I'm making
(11:11):
all this up, but three miles apart from each other
that could be the same animal. So you start to
get these sighting clusters right, and that's when you can
launch a full scale investigation. Now the difficult the difficulty
that comes to me and my team is the fact
that which of those sightings are you going to log
and you have to determine credibility based on those sightings
(11:32):
word of mouth. You know, we very rarely consider film
and photograph. You know, there was a famous photograph of
a super mangy fox running around Victoria, a video pardon me,
of the super mangy fox running around Victoria, Southern Australia
that everybody was calling a Thilocene, And you know, every
Yahoo in the world would go on YouTube and say
(11:52):
that's definitely a Thilocene where anybody with even a remote
amount of wildlife experience or biological knowledge can look at
and go look at it and go that's a mangie fox.
Why are we even pretending. So, you know, fortunately, with
my background in the wildlife sciences and I actually worked
with foxes for a couple of years, so with my
background in that, you know, some of that stuff that
(12:13):
people send me relentlessly doesn't go further than you know,
even looking at the title of the link, because I'm
able to know what it is. And when it comes
to something like thilacene, I would wager to say I've
seen every single video and photo of quote unquote thiolacene
caught on tape there is, and you know, none of
them are credible.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
None of them.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Okay, I've seen I thought I've seen a couple that
look pretty good, but again, I'm not really into it.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I'm not really studying it or anything.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
There's an interesting one, and I don't have it in
front of me, but it's it's like this this color
image of this animal that's like kind of standing up
on a rock with a green background where you can
just see a little bit of the coloration, and it's
you know, like, to me, that photo is interesting, you know,
I'm not. I would never and this just goes against
(12:58):
my protocol as a scientist. I would never look at
it and go, that's a thilasine. You know, it's just
not how I operate. But that photo is very compelling.
You know, I can't look at it and go, that's
a fox. So it's in that gray area right where
it's like between the two where it's not it's not definitive,
but it's certainly you can't definitively call it something else,
So that would be considered, you know, that would be
(13:20):
something that I would consider logging into our database to
to be a sighting. And so that's yeah, you know,
there's there's a lot of imagery out there.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
There's nothing that's definitive.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, there's a lot of maybes and the that's westword.
You know, our focus tends to live in the maybe
realm all these photographs and whatever else is. And so
as far as footprint evidence of Thilocene and whatnot, what
do you what differentiation do you see between like regular dogs,
for example, and what a thilocine footprint was would look like?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Yeah, well, in layman's terms, a thilosine has a kangaroof foot.
So if you ever considered a kangaroofoot, they've got these long,
skinny feet that go along the ground versus a dog,
which has you know, a little paw. Now, Thilocene is
not exactly like a kangaroo, otherwise it would be indistinguishable.
But imagine the pad of a dog's foot with the
back end of a kangaroos. And so you know, when
(14:11):
I've tracked Dilocene through Tasmania and in Australia, that's what
I've been looking for. And I'll be one hundred percent
transparent and telling you I've never seen a track that
matches that description. Like we we know based on the
morphology of the animal and the museum specimens exactly what
a print would look like. But keep in mind some
of the places I track, you know, it's deciduous forests,
(14:31):
so there's no there's no dust or mud or anything
that leaves a track. It's just leaf litter that you
never see a track in. So you know, certain animals,
like I've tracked lions in Africa and list goes on
and on, it's very easy to track them based on
the habitat. Thylacene typically does not occupy a habitat that
is conducive to tracking.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Unfortunately, didn't you get attacked by a lion?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I have?
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yeah, and I it's it's a very overembellished way of
putting it, but yeah, the truth is so I grew
up in Zimbabwe and our neighbors had a game farm,
and when I was a little kid, I used to
go over there and play with the lion cubs and
the rescues and stuff like that. And I uh, one
time I was playing with some adolescent lions and I
turned my back to leave the cage, and the lion
(15:14):
decided he wasn't done playing as I flopped the pillowcase
full of feathers over my shoulder and shredded up my
back a little bit.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Classic.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
We'll be right back after these messages. Bob, are you
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Speaker 1 (17:22):
In your time in Africa, did you hear rumors or
stories or folklore or anything about about some sort of
sasquatch like animal out there, like some sort of upright
bipedal ape animal living in Africa.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
I've heard it all, guys. And what I mean by
that is Africa is the Dark Continent. And I lived
in Zimbabwe, which is you know, it's Shauna and Tonga.
Are the cultures primarily there, and they're there. There is
not I won't say there is no Western religion because
that's certainly not true. But the accepted common belief system
(17:56):
is one of lore and witch doctors. And try try
Bible culture, you know, sometimes mixed in with some Christianity,
sometimes not. And I've heard it all, you know, in
where I grew up, in Zimbabwe, things that are misunderstood
are articulated as spirituality, and there's a lot of that.
(18:16):
I've heard of upright bipedal things. I've heard of witch doctors.
I mean, in one of my episodes, and we're in Zanzibar,
where we found our first major discovery and extinct leopard species.
The witch Doctor talks of how shape shifters would use
leopards to do their evil bidding. Now, this isn't something
that you know is like a joke or something that
is shared lightly. This is factual as far as the
people there are concerned. And so yes, that's a very
(18:40):
long answer, but the short answer is yes, I'm very
familiar with bipedal large primate creatures all the way from
the Congo to where I lived in Zimbabwe being reported
that do not match any descriptions of any known biological creatures.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Did you hear any of that from trusted like other
trackers or like an older experience kind that you looked
up to, somebody trusted there tell you an account they
possibly had or.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Yeah, one d percent. I mean there are people. There
are gentlemen that I grew up with in Zimbabwe, trackers
that work. So my family ran a safari business, right
so they we spent all our time in the bush,
like all of it. If I wasn't in school, I
was in the bush. And there are trackers that I
grew up with, trackers that make me look like an
absolute clown. I mean, guys that'll look at the dust
and go you know, there was a fight here. A
(19:27):
large male lion charged a small impala. The impaula took
off to the right, the line, the line has circled
around the left. You know all of this just by
reading the dust. And those types of trackers who, like
I said, I mean I literally I kind of hold
a candle to these types of people, and I'm a
pretty good tracker and I learned from them.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
But there that's all they do is track.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
They they have reported seeing tracks of things like that.
They've reported seeing things like that, and you know, look,
I'll be honest with you, guys.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I'm a biologist.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
I believe in science and fact, and you know, I
also trust the people. Isaac is one of them, the
name that comes to my head implicitly, who have told
me stories of encounters with these animals, and oftentimes they're
affiliated with witch doctors and shamans.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
There's a lot of more going on about it. Even
here in the United States. There's this whole movements of
people who don't seem to understand that like the possible biological,
biological reality of sasquatches, and they attribute all sorts of
other things to them turning invisible or you know, the
mind speak or you know, talking inside their heads, all
sorts of stuff that just would you know, make your
(20:33):
head turn around from a scientific perspective, And it's one
of the interesting things about it. I was going to
ask you about number one. Are you familiar with Gareth
Patterson by any chance?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
The author? The author?
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Correct, I'm familiar. I'm familiar with the name. I kind
of think of any of his books off the top
of my head.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah, he was the assistant to the like born free
Lion guy back in the seventies. Now he actually is
along your line. He actually has rediscovered the population of
South African elephants. Then, Yeah, they thought that the troop
had been that troop. Is that what elephants traveling the herd?
They thought the herd was down to one big matriarch.
(21:09):
And it turns out and now there's a few dozen
of these things and he's the guy that figured it out.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Very cool with Africa.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Along the way, he's I think he has now seen
the local flavor of sasquatch they call the o tang
with his own eyes.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Probably, I think when he.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Says six times or something over the last eight four
times over the last eight years. Anyway, interesting researcher, kind
of doing the same sort of thing that you're doing
over there in Africa, South Africa. But I want to
ask you, what role do the indigenous people and local
folklore and mythology and stories, what role does that play
in the discovery or rediscovery of species?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
A huge one lore, local culture. Look, the best scientists
in the world, the best. The people who understand the
environment the most are not people like myself who have
a fancy degree or an education or sitting in an office.
They're the people that spend the time in the field,
boots on the ground, whether they're an official scientist or
someone collecting water from a river. Those people, the people
(22:09):
who live there, the trackers, like Isaac I mentioned, they're
the ones that understand the environment. And this is an
unpopular opinion upon my colleagues, but it's one that I'll
gladly express. We know nothing compared to them. They're the
ones that understand every leaf, every blade of grass, you
know where it comes from, where it's going, et cetera.
They might not understand large scale population dynamics and global warming,
(22:30):
but they understand the manusha of that because they're involved
in it every day. When I, like I was mentioning,
my first discovery was that of a Zanzibar leopard.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Right.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Zanzibar is an island nation that is shrouded in lore
and culture, and the witch doctors used to use their
leopards there to do their evil bidding. And many of
the witch doctors outright told us that they used to
have the abilities to transform themselves from shaman into leopard
and back to do evil bidding at night. And we
(22:59):
discover at a leopard there. I'm not saying that that
was a shaman who that night, you know, went where
wolf and turned into a leopard. But what I am
saying is without connecting with those witch doctors and speaking
to them and understanding their beliefs with regards to the
animal's ongoing existence, where to look, where they might be,
what they'd killed, et cetera, we probably would have had
(23:20):
no hope in hell of ever finding one. And the
same goes on and on. When we were in the Amazon,
people talked about the the cayman Ambrio Lago trump Alago,
so like the yellow Cayman with the big nose, I
probably just butchered the Spanish way of saying it. But
they kept talking about the cayman with the large the
yellow cayman with the large nose, and that was it
(23:40):
wasn't seen as mythology to them, but it was extremely
rare and kind of unknown as to where it was
or what it was. And it was crystal clear to
Western science that that was a species that hadn't been
seen in forty years. So, you know, it's without communicating
with the locals and taking their words at least as
credible with regards to ongoing existence, you've got nothing like
(24:02):
Otherwise you're just parachuting in. You know, you're taking a
shot in the dark and leaving. So I would never
dare to venture on one of these excursions or expeditions
to try and locate these animals without the help of
the locals that engage with them on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And how do you approach the cultures that you're learning
from with the scientific Western ideas and mind that you
approach them with, Like, how do you how do you
approach them and still maintain a level of respect instead
of just the tendency would be like for the conqueror
to write that off as mythology, right, But what's the
(24:38):
balance there? As a scientist when you approach this, how
do you deal with that?
Speaker 4 (24:42):
You know, it's like there's this whole new thing in
my field. But it sucks because I hate the terminology
of like parachuting science and colonial science and all these
weird words that I don't necessarily agree with with regards
to when they're applied. But you have to you the
local resources and the help, and you have to take
(25:03):
you have to take in all of the information. And
anybody that just discredits something because another culture believes in it,
even if it's of the supernatural, is foolish because your
understanding of supernatural and their understanding of supernatural are two
very different things.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
For some people in the world, you know, the sky,
the sky goes dark because I don't even know I'm
making this up because I'm so dry as a scientist.
But my point is just you know, for some people,
the wind blows because because something in the sky made it,
and for some people it's due to the Coriolis effect. Right,
It's just a different understanding of different things. It doesn't
mean the wind doesn't blow. If you get my point,
(25:40):
you know, my point. My point is that you have
to you sit on the ground. You can hear the stories.
You can pick and choose what pieces of information are
useful to an investigation. It doesn't mean you have to
believe them when they tell you that a spirit blew
the wind, you know, but you can believe them that
the wind is blowing because you know that. So it's
it's picking and choosing and disseminating which information is actually
(26:02):
relevant to an expedition or a search, over criticizing or
discrediting because one piece of the story doesn't match our
scientific understanding.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Well said, yeah, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So I mean, in your travels throughout the world, or
do you have any goals of working with primates some
sort of undiscovered primate species, You know, because we're Boble
and I are both bigfoot folks, and we're interested in
all sorts of unknown primates throughout the world, and there
seems to be just an endless supply of them.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So are dar any of those on your radar at
the moment? Well, I mean, I've discovered a lost primate,
so that was nice. Talks about it? Please tell us men?
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Yeah, yeah, I found a primate called the Miller's grizzled
langyear that hadn't been seen in Borneo in twenty issu year.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
No, no, no, I'm sorry, that's not true.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Some researchers photographed it eight years prior but hadn't seen
it since. So you know, that was like that wasn't
an extinct animal, but it was certainly a lost one,
and that was a huge moment, you know, finding this
creature in this tiny pocket of Borneo. But on a
bigger scale with regards to do I have any interest
in primates, I have huge interest in primates. There's a
there's a relatively poorly known region in the Congo, in
(27:14):
the Democratic Republic of Congo that is held by gorillas
as in gu gorillas like warfare gorillas, that potentially has
twice the known population of western Lowland gorilla the species.
But it's just very, very dangerous to go and engage
with this piece of bush. But you know, if something
that I've been working on for a couple of years,
(27:35):
and this is the first time I've announced it publicly,
but something I've been working on for a couple of years,
much like my Columbia expedition where we snuck in under
the fark rebels noses. You know, I would like to
go in under the radar into that habitat and walk
through that one hundred and fifty kilometer stretch of bush
and see if we can locate that troop of gorillas,
because it would effectively double our known, our known population
(27:58):
of lowland gorillas, which wouldn't remove them from the endangered
species list or anything, but it would certainly increase the
gene pool, maybe lead to more protections, maybe open up
that piece of habitat for protection, et cetera. So yeah,
and that's you know, that's as big footy as they get. Right,
We're talking about silverback guerrillas like big low land massive
primates that the whole world doesn't know whether or not,
(28:20):
like fifty thousand of these animals exists. So I'm really
not very well versed in the cryptied space, to be
honest with you, gentlemen. Like I've never searched for bigfoot
or NeSSI or any of those kind of things. I
focus very much so on wildlife, you know, like I
know wildlife in and out, and I study wildlife like
you should see what my office looks like. It's nothing
(28:41):
but aquariums and tanks and mounts and yeah, so I
really just know about animals, like that's kind of my thing.
I don't know much about the crypted space at all,
So forgive me when I'm not familiar with these terms.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Oh it's okay, now, we love it.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
We love it because you know, you're doing like legit
stuff and we're in the public eyes.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
We're not we think we are. Yeah, I mean they're real.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Sasquatches are actually out there, don't get me wrong, but
you know, the public in general thinks that we're pseudoscientists,
and just because we don't have a credential for.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
If I'm interested in the rank Pandeck.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, so you've probably heard of the ring Pendeck.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
That's rather I have because I'm friends with Joe Rogan,
the talk show host or the podcast host, and he's
he's quite obsessed with them.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
So yeah, I've I've heard.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
The first time I ever heard about them was was
talking to Joe. And then I spending as much time
in Indonesia as I have, which is becoming a ridiculous
amount at this point because there's so much incredible speciation
over there. I've heard that name many times now.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Cliff has the biggest footprint collection of the cast of
those of anybody.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I funded a project with the local people over there.
Once Finding Bigfoot, the show that Bobo and I were on,
we went to Sumatra, and when we left I kind
of funded a project for a couple of years with
the locals, saying, hey, if you hear about a sighting,
why don't you go see.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
If you can go cast a couple of footprints, and
we got we got some.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
It was it was an interesting project, and you know,
doctor Meldrum from i University has possession of some of
the casts.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
And now my understanding of irang Pendeck is it's a
relatively small humanoid creature, right like two or three feet
or maybe what three or four foot tall, something like that,
three to five feet tall, three to five feet description.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's it's I do think they're real, and
I think that they're probably some sort of terrestrial or
semi terrestrial orangutan. At the end of the day, the
part of the world is perfect because obviously there's some
matron orangutans, there's of course Borneo's right there, and yeah,
so I think that they're probably the semi terrestrial ranguetans.
I don't think they're hominins like a lot of other
(30:34):
people do so, like the whole idea of a relative
Homo floresiensis or something from down a Floores or the
new one from the Philippines Homo loose on incests, I
don't think that the ring pindecks are those because the
foot structure is different based on the footprint cast evidence.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
I'll tell I'll tell you this not to interject my
opinion to something I know very little. Please, do you
know I've traveled seventy something countries now, I've worked with wildlife,
and I mean, it's it's it's getting ridiculous to the
point that my family hates me. But there's two places
in the world that you know, I would consider it
to be like the Dark Continent, right, like like Africa
(31:09):
and the sense of I very much so believe in
a sense and I can go elaborate magic is still
real in Africa. And Indonesia is another place that I
feel like that there's a lot still to be understood
and explored and discovered there. And so you know, having
gone to Sumatra many times and Borneo as well, in
that whole region, it wouldn't surprise me to find out.
(31:32):
It's not that it wouldn't surprise me. It's a known
thing that there are primate species that we don't know
about yet. Now that said, I would reverse the question
to you guys, and I'd ask you, like, why don't
we know about these primate species?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
What makes them so elusive?
Speaker 4 (31:44):
You know, if there's a bipedal orangutang running around Indonesia,
why have we never seen one or killed one? You know, Like,
I'm sure it's a kind of question you guys get
all the time, and forgive me for asking it again,
but that's kind of what always crosses my.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Mind, is like, why don't we know about it? I
think it's a couple and I think probably rarity of
the species says a lot about it. And also, you know,
the area that they live in, what is it? Yeah,
crenchy ark.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Yeah, impenetrable. It's literally impenetrable.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's just absolutely ridiculous. And that's that's
one of their main you know, bastions, shall we say.
And also, I mean I've thought about this for a
while as well. Indonesia, You're not it's not exactly, it's
not like the US Man. It's not like a gun country,
you know, it doesn't seem like that to me. I
seem said, if you're not in the military, you probably
don't have a firearm. And at the end of the day,
(32:34):
that's kind of what it takes to prove a new species,
which is something that I might ask you about. How
do you deal with the need of collecting a holotype
for a totally new and novel species.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
It's very difficult, especially because I am not a hunter
and I don't want to kill any of these. We
do fur traps, you know. I we dart stuff and
take blood. Sometimes camera imagery is enough, you know. In
the case of the cayman and the tortoise, we literally
had those animals in our hands. So it's just it's very,
very tricky.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
When I was in Africa in twenty eighteen, we were
looking for remnant genetics of the cape lion, and in
order to do that, I had to get twenty five
feet away from one with effectively a paintball gun that
shoots a tranquilizer dart and put it to sleep and
pull some blood from it, you know, which we caught
the animal and fortunately I've worked in those environments a lot.
So nothing bad, nothing went wrong, but you know, tracking
(33:27):
the largest male lion that you can find in southern
Africa to put it to sleep, to pull some blood
for it, to check the blood for remnant genetics is
it's very challenging, you know, and those things, those things
come up all the time, and it's one of the reasons.
And I'll be honest, this field didn't really exist before
I started focusing on it, you know, not to this
isn't a humble brag, but like, there were so many
(33:49):
reasons why this field was too difficult to approach that
most scientists would never even dare take it on. And
now we're starting to figure out ways with which to
do it, like for traps and darting and etcetera, and etcetera, etcetera.
So it's it's very challenging. As a short answer, stay
tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo
(34:11):
will be right back after these messages.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
So for people like Bobo and I already our audience
in general who like think or know that sasquatches are
in fact real animals, what can you recommend for the
layman scientists the citizen scientists that wants to make some
sort of progress towards the eventual, you know, academic recognition
of the species. What can we do as a as
a community or a group or as individuals, Like, what
(34:41):
would you recommend for us.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
With regards to finding a discovery or with regards to
just being more credible in the sense of.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Even though for furthering furthering the subject. I'm just going
to leave it open like that because I'm not a
gun guy. I'm not going to kill a sasquatch and
bring it in. That's not just not me, right, So
what can people like me or people who are gun
guys actually do.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
I think the answer there is really really quite simple, Like,
if you want to be taken seriously in the scientific community,
you have to let me back up one second. And
this is something that I debate and argue with people.
By the way, when I first you know, I don't
know if you guys have ever seen The Lost City
of zeb It's a movie. It's a wonderful book, Percy,
it's a real story too. Percy Fitzpatrick gets up in
(35:23):
front of this like room of guys and stuff. He's
smoking jackets and he's like I'm going to find the
lost city, and they're like.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
You're crazy, You're a lunatic.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
You know, when I first got up in front of
a bunch of colleagues and said I'm going to find
an extinct animal, I receive the same reaction, Right, you're crazy,
You're a lunatic, Like you're insane.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
You know.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Now fast forward ten fifteen years whatever it's been since
we started down this journey, and you know, all those
same people are coming back to me and going as unbelievable,
You're being nominated for prizes, you know, people, we want
you to speak at our symposiums, blah blah blah. So
the only way that I got from the point of
being called a lunatic to the point of being praised
for my discoveries is by using scientific methodology to prove
(36:02):
things right. And so that's what I would advise to
to the layman, to the citizen scientist, you know, go
and gather all the data, gather all the research, organize
it right, write something credible. You know, if you if
you become and I'm sure you guys are this way already,
so forgive me if I'm saying anything that's too obvious.
But if you are obsessive over something the way I
(36:25):
am over extinct creatures, and you then apply scientific methodology
to it and lay it all out and you know,
pinpoint everything. You know, you kind of get the visual
of the guy, the crazy guy with all the pictures
on the wall and all the pins and the strings
leading to one thing. That's what you have to do
in science, right, It's like, take all these little pieces
of evidence, try and connect them to one place, then
(36:47):
go out and prove it. And my opinion with regards
to proving it is do for traps. Put out camera traps.
Trail cameras are your best friend in the world. You know,
you get a clear, clear image on a trail camera
of a bigfoot and that's that. Like there's nothing anybody
can do about it, you know, So get for traps,
get trail cameras. Uh, just just narrow it in.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
There's a couple there's a couple of texts. I mean,
there's a couple of books written by acadecics PhDs. Once
doctor Jeff Melger, he is an anthropologist, and then there
was doctor John binnaugal As a wild apologist. They wrote
books for guys like you. But it seems almost no one, none,
none of the actively qualified people they wrote it for.
I've even read them.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
Interesting, I wonder why that is, do you think because
there's not enough people interes like why why is that?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I don't know the answer to that. I'm not familiar
with them, and I'm in the space.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
It's an unlikely, unlikely subject, unlikely uh special world species
really in an unlikely place, North America. We kind of
think that we've got this whole thing, you know, all
shut her down, like we know what's up here. You're
not going to surprise us with anything bigger than a shrew, right,
So I think that's part of it. Doctor Grover Krantz
often said that like anthropologists would be deeply embarrassed if
(37:58):
sasquatches were proven to be real, because how could they
have overlooked such a big thing right in their own backyard,
et cetera. But now with this idea, and like doctor
Meldrim's really pushing this forward more than anybody, this idea
of relati hominoids in general, you know, like that, you know,
with the various hominin species not dying off until very recently,
and with Homo sapiens overlapping in the timeline with them,
(38:20):
with like I think seven or maybe eight that we
know of different hominins, the idea that like the last
Homo standing now may not just be us. We may
be not alone on this planet, especially in these far
flung places of the planet world China or northern Russia
in that place, those sort of places, but there might
even be some in our own backyard. And I think
(38:40):
it's a really interesting question, even to the point where
Scientific American put it on the front page of the
one of their magazines a few years back.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
So fascinating.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
I mean, there is more and more evidence to show that,
you know, sort of Homo erectus.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
And caveman, if you will.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
And I forgive me, I don't know all the gene
not my field, but you know, basically, the primitive man
was here later and later than we realized. That seems
to be from my very superficial understanding of and correct
me if I'm wrong. Year after year we're like, oh,
turns out they were here. You know, first at first
we thought they were here a million years ago, and
now we think they're here one hundred thousand years ago.
(39:19):
And now we think they were here thirty thousand years ago.
Like it seems to just keep the timeline seems to
teams seems to keep moving up, which I always do
find quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
And more and more species, Like since you're a fan
of Indonesia, you know, Homo floresiensis obviously the hobbits and
the last the one that was published in May of
twenty nineteen, Homo loose on insists from the Philippines, and
just two weeks ago Lee Berger from in South Africa commented,
you know, he's the guy that that's excavating the Rising
Star cave where Homo nalidi was discovered, and that one
(39:51):
trove of hominin bones actually more than doubled the entirety
of the hominin data set, just that one cave more
than doubled it from what I understand. Mixed in with
the Homo nalidi, which is a whole new species that
Lee Burger discovered in South Africa in this cave are
apparently other specimens from an entirely different species they are
now trying to identify. There might be another Homo Homo
(40:13):
hominin discovery on the horizon in the near future.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
And I think that's you know, that's my world, not
humanoid species, but wildlife species in that kind of realm,
and I think that's fascinating. I think people do want
to know about that. I think they want to read
about that. You know, you're asking what citizen scientists can do.
You know, I don't think you should all put on
your Indiana Jones boots and get out there and start
digging around caves. But I think the furthering of that,
(40:37):
in the furthering of the spread of that information and
the understanding of that information, will lead to the ability
for more citizens scientists to be involved. And a perfect
example that I can give is I did an expedition
looking for the Ivory built woodpecker, which was a large
woodpecker species that occurred in the southeast and all the
way into Cuba. Since then, I have probably received no
(41:01):
less than seven thousand emails with reported sightings, videos, pictures,
et cetera. Now most of them are not credible, but regardless,
it's citizens scientists that are bringing this up, bringing it
to me to say, hey, I think I saw an
ivory build woodpecker right now, none of them have proven
it yet, but all it takes is one right, So
(41:21):
instead of me being one set of eyes out there
looking for this woodpecker for three and a half weeks
like we typically do on an expedition, Now I have
I'm making these numbers up, but ten thousand people in
the region out looking for this woodpecker with cameras, and
all it takes is one person to get lucky once
if that animal is still there, and a citizen scientist
(41:41):
has made a much larger impact than you know I
would ever be capable.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Of doing in a three week expedition.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
So as far as taking a holotype goes, I have
a little bit of a moral quandary, and I think
you probably do too, based on what you said about
killing something to prove it's real. But for sasquatches, if
you know, if that eventually comes to a head and
bigfoots are proven to be real, no matter how it
is proven to be real, they're gonna they're gonna.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Go kill them.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
They're gonna go kill several of them to study them.
There's just really no other way around it, because that's
the way how science works. But to get to that spot,
to even get the academics out there trying to hunt
these things, do you think there's any other way to
prove a species and to collect a holotype for a
new novel species never been seen before, because I can
(42:27):
see how photographs would work for something that we knew
was reel sixty years ago, you know, But for a
new novel, unexpected species like the sasquatch. Do you think
there's any other way to get that job done without
actually putting a bulletin one man?
Speaker 4 (42:41):
You know, I'd love to sit here and be like,
absolutely save it. You know, it's the only way. But
the truth is, the way that our our system is
set up, there is not you know, there really isn't.
Now if you if you turned up with a foot
of one or something like that, sure, right, or a
leg or an arm, you know that someone hit on
the car and that's what's left. Sure, But ahead of
having that specimen, No, the answer is no.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
The way I would handle it if I were targeting
these things is I wouldn't be out there with a gun.
I would study their ecology to the best of my ability,
and then I would create live traps, right. And you know,
in order to do that, you use use primitive survival guys,
you use engineers, et cetera, et cetera, which you know
I've done. I've built these giant crocodile traps and caught
(43:24):
big crocs and stuff like that. And a croc certainly
doesn't have the intelligence of a bipedal primate. But you know,
I think the only way short of killing one is
to catch one alive and the only and that's probably
an even harder task than shooting one.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bogo will be right back after these messages.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yeah, that's a problematic.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
And I guess that's why Krantz and Green and all
the early researchers always advocated for killing one, because it's
quick and clean and done, and it's over and that's
the end of the day, you know.
Speaker 4 (44:06):
And here's my two cents on something like that, Right,
a relatively unpopular opinion, probably among my type of followers.
But if you're gonna ask me, hey, will you go
kill an orca to save all the orcas? Right? We
love orcas. Killer whales are beautiful. Nobody wants to see
an orca killed, myself included. But if you told me that,
if I was the person that had to kill an
(44:26):
orca to save all the orcas, I would do it.
I would hate it, it would be miserable, it would
be one of the hardest things I'd ever have to do.
But for the greater good of the species, I would
absolutely do it. And I feel that way about any species. Now,
if there's two of them left and you take that approach, well,
obviously there's a big problem. But you know, if and
I don't know what you know, your guys estimated populations
(44:48):
are and everything else. But the point is, if if
one kill can save a species, it's a worthwhile kill
for the greater good.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
We figure there's three to ten thousand. Three to ten
thousand North America's kind of a guess.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
I mean, and if that's the truth, And again I
don't know what systems are in place, But if there
were three thousand of them and you killed one of them,
but killing one of them released funding and conservation and
habitat preservation, everything else, and that brought the population. Let's
say they are in jeopardy from three thousand to that
(45:19):
ten thousand, then that kill is worth it every time. Right,
And again, this is a terribly unpopular opinion. I'm nervous
even speaking about it, but it's how I feel.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
It's also reality, you know.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I mean, the reality is a question that being a
biologist like yourself, who's dealing with rare and a largely
maybe not well documented species, you know, or it thought
to be extinct, you have. That's a question that's on
your desk and you have to deal with it. And
I think it's a fair position to have, no matter
what various followers might say. I mean, this is something
that you have to wrestle with personally, So I think
(45:51):
it's a.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
And it doesn't matter how much you love them, you
know that if you want to save them, you got
to do what it takes.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Gentlemen, Thanks for having me today. I enjoyed chatting with you.
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Sorry that I expelled so much verbal diarrhea about science,
but it's what I get excited about.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
It's what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
We need to up the game of the Bigfoot community
in seat of chasing around voices in our heads and
thinking things are going on that aren't. We sure need
to start playing by the rules so we can be
taken seriously. And then this move this subject forward out
of the realm of ridiculous tinfoil hat wearing weirdos on
cable news into something that we can talk about relic
relic species of hominins that possibly existing in North America.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Sure makes sense to me. Thank you so much for
coming on. I loved it. Thanks, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Take care, have a good one. But I yeah, Force
was a great guest, you know, I know, try to
be REALI with the pure science approach, but man, I
wanted to kind of school him more on the sasquatch,
you know, like this is why they're real, and get him,
you know, more enthused on it, more interested.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Well, it sounds like his plate is full enough. And
you know, and nobody likes to be convinced of anything,
whether it's Bigfoot or politics or any Nobody likes to
have somebody else tell them why they're wrong.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
So it's I think it's better to take a softer hand.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
You know. He was open to it though, I mean,
he just he just really has not been exposed to
the information and the evidence.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Yeah. Yeah, I was hoping to have him chase and
go down the Gareth Patterson hole, you know, because I
think that he would he's aware of him as an author.
I think he would probably say a lot that he
has seen them with.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
His own eyes, right right.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
No, But I love that.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
I love the science because if bigfoots are real, there's
science behind it, no matter what people think it is
just because i'm you know, the paranormal side.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
It's the onus is on them.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
You know, we know that sasquatches are out there, or
at least I know the sasquatch, but we know that
the available evidence points to some sort of horminin or
at least hominoid, some sort of ape like manlike thing.
That their structure is exactly the same as all the
other species are more or less the same as all
the other species.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
In that group, the hominoid group.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Their fur is similar, their foot structures identical, the hands
are strongly resembling. So the paranormal people, the onus is
on them to show us that they're right, because so
far the evidence is strongly tilted towards a perfectly normal
biological species. So I love having biologists on and talking
about what they are looking into and how they're looking
(48:16):
into their subjects and maybe taking something away that we
can apply to the sasquatch.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Well, I think guys I came aren't aware that There's
been a lot of people that have applied scientific you know,
principles and protocols that you know that I got that,
I've gotten some stuff, you know, like North American what
a conservancy?
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Lots of people have in fact applied scientific method towards this,
but they haven't gotten very far. So I think he
would just throw that back, just like he did at
the Rangutan or the ring Pindeck, things like well why
is it? Then say why? I give them the reasons.
I think that a ring p indecks have not been
proven real, but I don't know at the end of
the day, and certainly it's a conundrum for the Sasquatch.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Well, that was a great interview with Forrest. We got
another one kind up next week, so until that time,
keep his squad.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you
get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram
at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on
Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle,
(49:25):
and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag
Bigfoot and Beyond.
Big Food and Beyond.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
With Cliff and Bobo.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
These guys are your favorites. So light Chase, Subscribe and
raid it five, stay and range, just go on yesterday
and listening, oh watching limb always keep its watching.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo Fay.
Hey Cliff, Hey Bobo.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
How you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Good Man? Good? How's going to you?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It's going all right. It's been an adventurous week to
say the least.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Yeah, yeh, I had four nights out and it was
totally dead in kyos and stuff like that. I mean,
it's beautiful and all that, but anyways, it hits the
bread of the Chase today.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah, we'll have to talk about bigfoot stuff later. We
have something a little bit more pressing on the desk today.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Yeah. We got a guy I first came a Wherever
a couple of years ago or whatever, maybe it was
a year ago, and he was on Joe Rogan and
then he actually was on Animal Planet after we left
Forrest Galante and has got extinct or alive it which
basically deals with cryptids because cryptois always just has been undiscovered.
It could be something that was known to exist but
hasn't been seen thought to be extinct for a long
(01:14):
time that it's rediscovered, so that could be a cryptos
species too.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, they're kind of called them a Lazaruth species I think,
you know, after the biblical story.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yep. So anyways, without further ado, this is Forrest Galante.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, hey, gentlemen, how are you good? Thanks for us
Absolutely great, the thrilled to have you on.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
By the way, Like I love talking to adventures and
people are doing more or less the same thing that
Bobo and I are trying to do, but a little
bit different because you're actually succeeding.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, so far it's been good.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
So yeah, I'm a wildlife biologist by trade and a
tracker and a rare species expert, and I do I
one of the things I target primarily is lazarus tax on,
which are animals that have theoretically been declared extinct wrongfully,
and so you know, I like to try and challenge
that notion and have done so, you know, many times,
(02:06):
but eight times successfully now.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So yeah, it's been it's been great.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
What were your biggest ones? That a leopard and what else?
Speaker 4 (02:14):
I'd say the biggest one ever, So we have eight
total rediscoveries now, which is it's amazing. You know, it's
seven more than any single organization or person has ever
done before in history. So we're really proud of it,
especially when we came from a stance of when we
started being like, I don't know if we'll ever find anything.
You know, Extinct doesn't mean hiding in a bush, it
doesn't mean around the next corner. Extinct means eradicated, gone forever.
(02:37):
So we were we certainly weren't as expectant to be
as successful as we were. But to answer your question,
my biggest discovery I think was actually the Fernandina tortoise
now tortoises in the Galopagos. You know, they're the icon
of conservation. Lonesome George was the poster child of conservation,
and he died in twenty fourteen, twenty twelve, something like that,
(02:57):
and since then there really hasn't been a poster child
for conservation. Well, in you know, two thousand and eighteen,
I discovered the Fernandina Island tortoise and animal only ever seen,
only ever reported once in history one hundred and fourteen
years prior by the California Academy of Sciences, never seen since,
never recorded, never documented, and we found that creature and Fern,
(03:19):
as we affectionately named her, is the rarest animal on earth,
you know, arguably no offense rarer than Bigfoot, because she
is the only one. There's only one of them as
far as we know, and it's the one that we found.
So that was that was really big for me and
big for the field of conservation in general.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Now, is it this one was hiding in plain sight?
That does it look the same as the other species
on the island or like, was it just differentiated by
its DNA or how was that the same?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
No?
Speaker 4 (03:45):
No, not at all that you know that I almost
I don't really dive into that arena, you know, of
speciation by genetics, because I'm not a geneticist.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I'm I'm a field biologist.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
No.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
The island of Fernandina is the second most active volcano
in the world. It's a standalone island that has no
other species of tortoise. So, for those that don't know,
every single island in the Glopagos has its own species
of tortoise, some have a couple, but Fernandina the newest
island in the Galopagos due to its age was not
known to have any tortoises except for this one that
(04:19):
was discovered one hundred and fourteen years prior by the
California Academy of Sciences. A lot of people, you know,
and to tie it into what you guys do, a
lot of people said, it's not real, it's a hoak.
There was never a Fernandina tortoise to begin with, even
though there was a you know, there was a specimen
sitting in the California Academy of Sciences, we.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Never hear that for us, No, I'm sure never.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yeah, And so you know, I knew about that specimen.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I've seen that specimen.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
I've worked with a couple people that work in in
the turtle and tortoise industry as biologists and done about
two and a half years of research, and then launched
the expedition to Fernandino, which in itself was a massive
ordeal and undertaking just to get the permits in paperwork.
And yeah, she wasn't hiding in plain sight. She was
hiding in a deep bush. But the only species that
(05:05):
it could be, you know, there's no other species on
the island. So as soon as we found her, we
knew exactly what we were looking at, now.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Did you take her back or did you just leave
her on the island, take a few samples from her
or anything?
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Or as I was saying earlier, the Fernandina Fernandina Island
is a second most active volcano in the world, so
it's a very volatile environment. Fern was stuck in a
small pocket of vegetation that was surrounded by impenetrable lava flow.
I mean it took us something like seven eight hours
in like one hundred and twenty degree heat just to
get to where she was crossing this lava flow. No quadruped,
(05:38):
no four legged animal on Earth could cover these lava flows.
I mean, it's just impossible. It's like walking on shards
of glass. So when we got there and found her,
she was super molnar, super dehydrated, and she was the
only one. So it was a little bit of like
a maral and ethical dilemma because we're like, we should
leave her, it's the right thing to do, but at
the same time, leaving her would almost certainly result in
(05:58):
losing her again, you know, not knowing where.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
The species was, she could have very easily died.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
So we grabbed her and we took her to the
Fosto Lorrena breeding facility on Santa Cruz Island, the main
island in the Galapagos, the same exact facility that housed
Lonesome George put her there, and she didn't leave her
water bowl for seven days. She was so dehydrated that
when she saw water, she just like, you know, I
don't mean to anthropomorphize these creatures, but she lit up
(06:24):
and she like darted in tortoise speed over to the
water dish and didn't leave it for seven days. So
we absolutely made the right decision. It sparked multiple return trips,
of which none have so far yielded another tortoise. But
you know, we've released millions of dollars of funding and
all kinds of great stuff due to the discovery.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Wow, so the world population, the world's known population of
these tortoises right now.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Is one is one the girl that we found for
in my goodness, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I'm more excited about the stuff that you're doing in
Australia because, like us, Cliff and I are both into
the thigh lest scene and we were down there, we
were looking for the AOI and I was really say
about your statist, say, well, I don't know if it's yours,
but I think you were talking about it. The university
down there in Australia has twenty five hundred game counc
are putting on a real strategic powterern not just randomly placed,
(07:11):
but like geometrically lined up to cover everything multiple times.
And I hope that think gets a yawi on it.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I'm not familiar with Yowie's. What's a yowie Australian Bigfoot?
Oh that would make sense, gotcha. Yeah, so I kind
of speak much on that. I know very little about
bigfoot specifically, but yeah, So the university in Cans, Australia,
they have this large systematic approach to monitoring wildlife and
(07:39):
far North Queensland, and like you said, they have this
massive grid pattern of these trail cameras covering huge space
spaces and they are checkerboarded in the sense of diverse
habitats and moving them from one one zone to another,
so you know, so to speak, anything that moves in
that region will be captured on these camps. And one
(08:01):
of the things that Queenstown University and researchers and myself
are hoping is that it could be you know, there's
the potential for it to be a Thilocene. It's an
extremely remote part of Australia where we know these animals
occurred less than four thousand years ago, So if the
dingos haven't taken over, they could still be there.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
As I say, is that their biggest enemy, the dingo?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, well it's a it's a variety of things.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
But long story short, the Thiocene used to range from
Papua New Guinea all the way to Tasmania. When people
first settled Australia, they brought with them canids dingoes. So
a lot of people think dingos are from Australia.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
They're not.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Dingos came to Australia four thousand years ago with the
first humans. Those dogs out competed them. Now, dingoes are
in Papua New Guinea, they are in Australia, but they
are not in Tasmania. So the last stronghold for the
Thilocene was Tasmania, you know, which we successfully eradicated them
from by placing a bounty on their head. But in Australia,
(08:57):
in the mainland, where we brought dingos four thousand years ago,
they were out competed by the dingoes. Now, the reason
that I think Australia is so fascinating. One, there's lots
of sightings and other things like that. But two is
dingos are they're a planes animal. They don't like certain habitat,
not to say that they won't traverse through it. And
they're they're a far better competitor than a Thilocene. But
(09:18):
they could easily avoid niche habitats within far North Queensland
Queensland that Thilocene would prefer to occupy. So in spaces
where thiloceine and habitats where thylosine and dingo would overlap,
dingo will win every time. But in certain spaces where
Dingo would choose not to occupy based on the ecology
(09:38):
of the environment, Thilocene could continue to thrive.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, it's a marsupial. Were they pack animals? I don't
even know.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
No, as far as we know about their social dynamic,
they were not a pack animal.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
There are.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
They are marsupial carnivore, the largest marsupial carnivore that ever existed.
They had small social structures, so you know, a few
of them at a time, but not certainly not a
pack that would be the wrong to monology.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Now, if you're involved in a study of the violus
scene and trying to quote unquote rediscover them, I guess
you've certainly seen your fair share of photographs or purported
photographs or small videos of these things out in the wild,
which I'm assuming probably sparks some interest into this project, like, Hey,
these might be real. I'm curious, because I'm faced with
this quite a bit. What do you do, as a
(10:24):
legitimate scientist instead of like a citizen scientist like myself?
What do you do to try to determine the authenticity
of photographs or videos of these rare, possibly extinct or
not even supposedly real species? Like what do you need
to do to kind of convince yourself? Like this is
a maybe, it's.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
A good question.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
You know, we have a very systematic approach to wildlife
that we take, which is, you know, I have these
spreadsheets that they're spreadsheets on spreadsheets.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
They're absolutely awful.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Where we you know, plug in every single sighting and
every single report and put in coordinates or approximate locations
and then we map at all. You know, So in
the case of the thyloscene, right, Okay, this report popped
up here, and this report popped up here, and this
report popped up here. And then when you look at
when you put all those into a map, you're like, oh,
it turns out those are only you know, I'm making
(11:11):
all this up, but three miles apart from each other
that could be the same animal. So you start to
get these sighting clusters right, and that's when you can
launch a full scale investigation. Now the difficult the difficulty
that comes to me and my team is the fact
that which of those sightings are you going to log
and you have to determine credibility based on those sightings
(11:32):
word of mouth. You know, we very rarely consider film
and photograph. You know, there was a famous photograph of
a super mangy fox running around Victoria, a video pardon me,
of the super mangy fox running around Victoria, Southern Australia
that everybody was calling a Thilocene, And you know, every
Yahoo in the world would go on YouTube and say
(11:52):
that's definitely a Thilocene where anybody with even a remote
amount of wildlife experience or biological knowledge can look at
and go look at it and go that's a mangie fox.
Why are we even pretending. So, you know, fortunately, with
my background in the wildlife sciences and I actually worked
with foxes for a couple of years, so with my
background in that, you know, some of that stuff that
(12:13):
people send me relentlessly doesn't go further than you know,
even looking at the title of the link, because I'm
able to know what it is. And when it comes
to something like thilacene, I would wager to say I've
seen every single video and photo of quote unquote thiolacene
caught on tape there is, and you know, none of
them are credible.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
None of them.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Okay, I've seen I thought I've seen a couple that
look pretty good, but again, I'm not really into it.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I'm not really studying it or anything.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
There's an interesting one, and I don't have it in
front of me, but it's it's like this this color
image of this animal that's like kind of standing up
on a rock with a green background where you can
just see a little bit of the coloration, and it's
you know, like, to me, that photo is interesting, you know,
I'm not. I would never and this just goes against
(12:58):
my protocol as a scientist. I would never look at
it and go, that's a thilasine. You know, it's just
not how I operate. But that photo is very compelling.
You know, I can't look at it and go, that's
a fox. So it's in that gray area right where
it's like between the two where it's not it's not definitive,
but it's certainly you can't definitively call it something else,
So that would be considered, you know, that would be
(13:20):
something that I would consider logging into our database to
to be a sighting. And so that's yeah, you know,
there's there's a lot of imagery out there.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
There's nothing that's definitive.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, there's a lot of maybes and the that's westword.
You know, our focus tends to live in the maybe
realm all these photographs and whatever else is. And so
as far as footprint evidence of Thilocene and whatnot, what
do you what differentiation do you see between like regular dogs,
for example, and what a thilocine footprint was would look like?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Yeah, well, in layman's terms, a thilosine has a kangaroof foot.
So if you ever considered a kangaroofoot, they've got these long,
skinny feet that go along the ground versus a dog,
which has you know, a little paw. Now, Thilocene is
not exactly like a kangaroo, otherwise it would be indistinguishable.
But imagine the pad of a dog's foot with the
back end of a kangaroos. And so you know, when
(14:11):
I've tracked Dilocene through Tasmania and in Australia, that's what
I've been looking for. And I'll be one hundred percent
transparent and telling you I've never seen a track that
matches that description. Like we we know based on the
morphology of the animal and the museum specimens exactly what
a print would look like. But keep in mind some
of the places I track, you know, it's deciduous forests,
(14:31):
so there's no there's no dust or mud or anything
that leaves a track. It's just leaf litter that you
never see a track in. So you know, certain animals,
like I've tracked lions in Africa and list goes on
and on, it's very easy to track them based on
the habitat. Thylacene typically does not occupy a habitat that
is conducive to tracking.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Unfortunately, didn't you get attacked by a lion?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I have?
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yeah, and I it's it's a very overembellished way of
putting it, but yeah, the truth is so I grew
up in Zimbabwe and our neighbors had a game farm,
and when I was a little kid, I used to
go over there and play with the lion cubs and
the rescues and stuff like that. And I uh, one
time I was playing with some adolescent lions and I
turned my back to leave the cage, and the lion
(15:14):
decided he wasn't done playing as I flopped the pillowcase
full of feathers over my shoulder and shredded up my
back a little bit.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Classic.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
We'll be right back after these messages. Bob, are you
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Speaker 1 (17:22):
In your time in Africa, did you hear rumors or
stories or folklore or anything about about some sort of
sasquatch like animal out there, like some sort of upright
bipedal ape animal living in Africa.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
I've heard it all, guys. And what I mean by
that is Africa is the Dark Continent. And I lived
in Zimbabwe, which is you know, it's Shauna and Tonga.
Are the cultures primarily there, and they're there. There is
not I won't say there is no Western religion because
that's certainly not true. But the accepted common belief system
(17:56):
is one of lore and witch doctors. And try try
Bible culture, you know, sometimes mixed in with some Christianity,
sometimes not. And I've heard it all, you know, in
where I grew up, in Zimbabwe, things that are misunderstood
are articulated as spirituality, and there's a lot of that.
(18:16):
I've heard of upright bipedal things. I've heard of witch doctors.
I mean, in one of my episodes, and we're in Zanzibar,
where we found our first major discovery and extinct leopard species.
The witch Doctor talks of how shape shifters would use
leopards to do their evil bidding. Now, this isn't something
that you know is like a joke or something that
is shared lightly. This is factual as far as the
people there are concerned. And so yes, that's a very
(18:40):
long answer, but the short answer is yes, I'm very
familiar with bipedal large primate creatures all the way from
the Congo to where I lived in Zimbabwe being reported
that do not match any descriptions of any known biological creatures.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Did you hear any of that from trusted like other
trackers or like an older experience kind that you looked
up to, somebody trusted there tell you an account they
possibly had or.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Yeah, one d percent. I mean there are people. There
are gentlemen that I grew up with in Zimbabwe, trackers
that work. So my family ran a safari business, right
so they we spent all our time in the bush,
like all of it. If I wasn't in school, I
was in the bush. And there are trackers that I
grew up with, trackers that make me look like an
absolute clown. I mean, guys that'll look at the dust
and go you know, there was a fight here. A
(19:27):
large male lion charged a small impala. The impaula took
off to the right, the line, the line has circled
around the left. You know all of this just by
reading the dust. And those types of trackers who, like
I said, I mean I literally I kind of hold
a candle to these types of people, and I'm a
pretty good tracker and I learned from them.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
But there that's all they do is track.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
They they have reported seeing tracks of things like that.
They've reported seeing things like that, and you know, look,
I'll be honest with you, guys.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I'm a biologist.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
I believe in science and fact, and you know, I
also trust the people. Isaac is one of them, the
name that comes to my head implicitly, who have told
me stories of encounters with these animals, and oftentimes they're
affiliated with witch doctors and shamans.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
There's a lot of more going on about it. Even
here in the United States. There's this whole movements of
people who don't seem to understand that like the possible biological,
biological reality of sasquatches, and they attribute all sorts of
other things to them turning invisible or you know, the
mind speak or you know, talking inside their heads, all
sorts of stuff that just would you know, make your
(20:33):
head turn around from a scientific perspective, And it's one
of the interesting things about it. I was going to
ask you about number one. Are you familiar with Gareth
Patterson by any chance?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
The author? The author?
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Correct, I'm familiar. I'm familiar with the name. I kind
of think of any of his books off the top
of my head.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah, he was the assistant to the like born free
Lion guy back in the seventies. Now he actually is
along your line. He actually has rediscovered the population of
South African elephants. Then, Yeah, they thought that the troop
had been that troop. Is that what elephants traveling the herd?
They thought the herd was down to one big matriarch.
(21:09):
And it turns out and now there's a few dozen
of these things and he's the guy that figured it out.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Very cool with Africa.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Along the way, he's I think he has now seen
the local flavor of sasquatch they call the o tang
with his own eyes.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Probably, I think when he.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Says six times or something over the last eight four
times over the last eight years. Anyway, interesting researcher, kind
of doing the same sort of thing that you're doing
over there in Africa, South Africa. But I want to
ask you, what role do the indigenous people and local
folklore and mythology and stories, what role does that play
in the discovery or rediscovery of species?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
A huge one lore, local culture. Look, the best scientists
in the world, the best. The people who understand the
environment the most are not people like myself who have
a fancy degree or an education or sitting in an office.
They're the people that spend the time in the field,
boots on the ground, whether they're an official scientist or
someone collecting water from a river. Those people, the people
(22:09):
who live there, the trackers, like Isaac I mentioned, they're
the ones that understand the environment. And this is an
unpopular opinion upon my colleagues, but it's one that I'll
gladly express. We know nothing compared to them. They're the
ones that understand every leaf, every blade of grass, you
know where it comes from, where it's going, et cetera.
They might not understand large scale population dynamics and global warming,
(22:30):
but they understand the manusha of that because they're involved
in it every day. When I, like I was mentioning,
my first discovery was that of a Zanzibar leopard.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Right.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Zanzibar is an island nation that is shrouded in lore
and culture, and the witch doctors used to use their
leopards there to do their evil bidding. And many of
the witch doctors outright told us that they used to
have the abilities to transform themselves from shaman into leopard
and back to do evil bidding at night. And we
(22:59):
discover at a leopard there. I'm not saying that that
was a shaman who that night, you know, went where
wolf and turned into a leopard. But what I am
saying is without connecting with those witch doctors and speaking
to them and understanding their beliefs with regards to the
animal's ongoing existence, where to look, where they might be,
what they'd killed, et cetera, we probably would have had
(23:20):
no hope in hell of ever finding one. And the
same goes on and on. When we were in the Amazon,
people talked about the the cayman Ambrio Lago trump Alago,
so like the yellow Cayman with the big nose, I
probably just butchered the Spanish way of saying it. But
they kept talking about the cayman with the large the
yellow cayman with the large nose, and that was it
(23:40):
wasn't seen as mythology to them, but it was extremely
rare and kind of unknown as to where it was
or what it was. And it was crystal clear to
Western science that that was a species that hadn't been
seen in forty years. So, you know, it's without communicating
with the locals and taking their words at least as
credible with regards to ongoing existence, you've got nothing like
(24:02):
Otherwise you're just parachuting in. You know, you're taking a
shot in the dark and leaving. So I would never
dare to venture on one of these excursions or expeditions
to try and locate these animals without the help of
the locals that engage with them on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And how do you approach the cultures that you're learning
from with the scientific Western ideas and mind that you
approach them with, Like, how do you how do you
approach them and still maintain a level of respect instead
of just the tendency would be like for the conqueror
to write that off as mythology, right, But what's the
(24:38):
balance there? As a scientist when you approach this, how
do you deal with that?
Speaker 4 (24:42):
You know, it's like there's this whole new thing in
my field. But it sucks because I hate the terminology
of like parachuting science and colonial science and all these
weird words that I don't necessarily agree with with regards
to when they're applied. But you have to you the
local resources and the help, and you have to take
(25:03):
you have to take in all of the information. And
anybody that just discredits something because another culture believes in it,
even if it's of the supernatural, is foolish because your
understanding of supernatural and their understanding of supernatural are two
very different things.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
For some people in the world, you know, the sky,
the sky goes dark because I don't even know I'm
making this up because I'm so dry as a scientist.
But my point is just you know, for some people,
the wind blows because because something in the sky made it,
and for some people it's due to the Coriolis effect. Right,
It's just a different understanding of different things. It doesn't
mean the wind doesn't blow. If you get my point,
(25:40):
you know, my point. My point is that you have
to you sit on the ground. You can hear the stories.
You can pick and choose what pieces of information are
useful to an investigation. It doesn't mean you have to
believe them when they tell you that a spirit blew
the wind, you know, but you can believe them that
the wind is blowing because you know that. So it's
it's picking and choosing and disseminating which information is actually
(26:02):
relevant to an expedition or a search, over criticizing or
discrediting because one piece of the story doesn't match our
scientific understanding.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Well said, yeah, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So I mean, in your travels throughout the world, or
do you have any goals of working with primates some
sort of undiscovered primate species, You know, because we're Boble
and I are both bigfoot folks, and we're interested in
all sorts of unknown primates throughout the world, and there
seems to be just an endless supply of them.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So are dar any of those on your radar at
the moment? Well, I mean, I've discovered a lost primate,
so that was nice. Talks about it? Please tell us men?
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Yeah, yeah, I found a primate called the Miller's grizzled
langyear that hadn't been seen in Borneo in twenty issu year.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
No, no, no, I'm sorry, that's not true.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Some researchers photographed it eight years prior but hadn't seen
it since. So you know, that was like that wasn't
an extinct animal, but it was certainly a lost one,
and that was a huge moment, you know, finding this
creature in this tiny pocket of Borneo. But on a
bigger scale with regards to do I have any interest
in primates, I have huge interest in primates. There's a
there's a relatively poorly known region in the Congo, in
(27:14):
the Democratic Republic of Congo that is held by gorillas
as in gu gorillas like warfare gorillas, that potentially has
twice the known population of western Lowland gorilla the species.
But it's just very, very dangerous to go and engage
with this piece of bush. But you know, if something
that I've been working on for a couple of years,
(27:35):
and this is the first time I've announced it publicly,
but something I've been working on for a couple of years,
much like my Columbia expedition where we snuck in under
the fark rebels noses. You know, I would like to
go in under the radar into that habitat and walk
through that one hundred and fifty kilometer stretch of bush
and see if we can locate that troop of gorillas,
because it would effectively double our known, our known population
(27:58):
of lowland gorillas, which wouldn't remove them from the endangered
species list or anything, but it would certainly increase the
gene pool, maybe lead to more protections, maybe open up
that piece of habitat for protection, et cetera. So yeah,
and that's you know, that's as big footy as they get. Right,
We're talking about silverback guerrillas like big low land massive
primates that the whole world doesn't know whether or not,
(28:20):
like fifty thousand of these animals exists. So I'm really
not very well versed in the cryptied space, to be
honest with you, gentlemen. Like I've never searched for bigfoot
or NeSSI or any of those kind of things. I
focus very much so on wildlife, you know, like I
know wildlife in and out, and I study wildlife like
you should see what my office looks like. It's nothing
(28:41):
but aquariums and tanks and mounts and yeah, so I
really just know about animals, like that's kind of my thing.
I don't know much about the crypted space at all,
So forgive me when I'm not familiar with these terms.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Oh it's okay, now, we love it.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
We love it because you know, you're doing like legit
stuff and we're in the public eyes.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
We're not we think we are. Yeah, I mean they're real.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Sasquatches are actually out there, don't get me wrong, but
you know, the public in general thinks that we're pseudoscientists,
and just because we don't have a credential for.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
If I'm interested in the rank Pandeck.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, so you've probably heard of the ring Pendeck.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
That's rather I have because I'm friends with Joe Rogan,
the talk show host or the podcast host, and he's
he's quite obsessed with them.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
So yeah, I've I've heard.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
The first time I ever heard about them was was
talking to Joe. And then I spending as much time
in Indonesia as I have, which is becoming a ridiculous
amount at this point because there's so much incredible speciation
over there. I've heard that name many times now.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Cliff has the biggest footprint collection of the cast of
those of anybody.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I funded a project with the local people over there.
Once Finding Bigfoot, the show that Bobo and I were on,
we went to Sumatra, and when we left I kind
of funded a project for a couple of years with
the locals, saying, hey, if you hear about a sighting,
why don't you go see.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
If you can go cast a couple of footprints, and
we got we got some.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
It was it was an interesting project, and you know,
doctor Meldrum from i University has possession of some of
the casts.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
And now my understanding of irang Pendeck is it's a
relatively small humanoid creature, right like two or three feet
or maybe what three or four foot tall, something like that,
three to five feet tall, three to five feet description.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's it's I do think they're real, and
I think that they're probably some sort of terrestrial or
semi terrestrial orangutan. At the end of the day, the
part of the world is perfect because obviously there's some
matron orangutans, there's of course Borneo's right there, and yeah,
so I think that they're probably the semi terrestrial ranguetans.
I don't think they're hominins like a lot of other
(30:34):
people do so, like the whole idea of a relative
Homo floresiensis or something from down a Floores or the
new one from the Philippines Homo loose on incests, I
don't think that the ring pindecks are those because the
foot structure is different based on the footprint cast evidence.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
I'll tell I'll tell you this not to interject my
opinion to something I know very little. Please, do you
know I've traveled seventy something countries now, I've worked with wildlife,
and I mean, it's it's it's getting ridiculous to the
point that my family hates me. But there's two places
in the world that you know, I would consider it
to be like the Dark Continent, right, like like Africa
(31:09):
and the sense of I very much so believe in
a sense and I can go elaborate magic is still
real in Africa. And Indonesia is another place that I
feel like that there's a lot still to be understood
and explored and discovered there. And so you know, having
gone to Sumatra many times and Borneo as well, in
that whole region, it wouldn't surprise me to find out.
(31:32):
It's not that it wouldn't surprise me. It's a known
thing that there are primate species that we don't know
about yet. Now that said, I would reverse the question
to you guys, and I'd ask you, like, why don't
we know about these primate species?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
What makes them so elusive?
Speaker 4 (31:44):
You know, if there's a bipedal orangutang running around Indonesia,
why have we never seen one or killed one? You know, Like,
I'm sure it's a kind of question you guys get
all the time, and forgive me for asking it again,
but that's kind of what always crosses my.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Mind, is like, why don't we know about it? I
think it's a couple and I think probably rarity of
the species says a lot about it. And also, you know,
the area that they live in, what is it? Yeah,
crenchy ark.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Yeah, impenetrable. It's literally impenetrable.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's just absolutely ridiculous. And that's that's
one of their main you know, bastions, shall we say.
And also, I mean I've thought about this for a
while as well. Indonesia, You're not it's not exactly, it's
not like the US Man. It's not like a gun country,
you know, it doesn't seem like that to me. I
seem said, if you're not in the military, you probably
don't have a firearm. And at the end of the day,
(32:34):
that's kind of what it takes to prove a new species,
which is something that I might ask you about. How
do you deal with the need of collecting a holotype
for a totally new and novel species.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
It's very difficult, especially because I am not a hunter
and I don't want to kill any of these. We
do fur traps, you know. I we dart stuff and
take blood. Sometimes camera imagery is enough, you know. In
the case of the cayman and the tortoise, we literally
had those animals in our hands. So it's just it's very,
very tricky.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
When I was in Africa in twenty eighteen, we were
looking for remnant genetics of the cape lion, and in
order to do that, I had to get twenty five
feet away from one with effectively a paintball gun that
shoots a tranquilizer dart and put it to sleep and
pull some blood from it, you know, which we caught
the animal and fortunately I've worked in those environments a lot.
So nothing bad, nothing went wrong, but you know, tracking
(33:27):
the largest male lion that you can find in southern
Africa to put it to sleep, to pull some blood
for it, to check the blood for remnant genetics is
it's very challenging, you know, and those things, those things
come up all the time, and it's one of the reasons.
And I'll be honest, this field didn't really exist before
I started focusing on it, you know, not to this
isn't a humble brag, but like, there were so many
(33:49):
reasons why this field was too difficult to approach that
most scientists would never even dare take it on. And
now we're starting to figure out ways with which to
do it, like for traps and darting and etcetera, and etcetera, etcetera.
So it's it's very challenging. As a short answer, stay
tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo
(34:11):
will be right back after these messages.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
So for people like Bobo and I already our audience
in general who like think or know that sasquatches are
in fact real animals, what can you recommend for the
layman scientists the citizen scientists that wants to make some
sort of progress towards the eventual, you know, academic recognition
of the species. What can we do as a as
a community or a group or as individuals, Like, what
(34:41):
would you recommend for us.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
With regards to finding a discovery or with regards to
just being more credible in the sense of.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Even though for furthering furthering the subject. I'm just going
to leave it open like that because I'm not a
gun guy. I'm not going to kill a sasquatch and
bring it in. That's not just not me, right, So
what can people like me or people who are gun
guys actually do.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
I think the answer there is really really quite simple, Like,
if you want to be taken seriously in the scientific community,
you have to let me back up one second. And
this is something that I debate and argue with people.
By the way, when I first you know, I don't
know if you guys have ever seen The Lost City
of zeb It's a movie. It's a wonderful book, Percy,
it's a real story too. Percy Fitzpatrick gets up in
(35:23):
front of this like room of guys and stuff. He's
smoking jackets and he's like I'm going to find the
lost city, and they're like.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
You're crazy, You're a lunatic.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
You know, when I first got up in front of
a bunch of colleagues and said I'm going to find
an extinct animal, I receive the same reaction, Right, you're crazy,
You're a lunatic, Like you're insane.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
You know.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Now fast forward ten fifteen years whatever it's been since
we started down this journey, and you know, all those
same people are coming back to me and going as unbelievable,
You're being nominated for prizes, you know, people, we want
you to speak at our symposiums, blah blah blah. So
the only way that I got from the point of
being called a lunatic to the point of being praised
for my discoveries is by using scientific methodology to prove
(36:02):
things right. And so that's what I would advise to
to the layman, to the citizen scientist, you know, go
and gather all the data, gather all the research, organize
it right, write something credible. You know, if you if
you become and I'm sure you guys are this way already,
so forgive me if I'm saying anything that's too obvious.
But if you are obsessive over something the way I
(36:25):
am over extinct creatures, and you then apply scientific methodology
to it and lay it all out and you know,
pinpoint everything. You know, you kind of get the visual
of the guy, the crazy guy with all the pictures
on the wall and all the pins and the strings
leading to one thing. That's what you have to do
in science, right, It's like, take all these little pieces
of evidence, try and connect them to one place, then
(36:47):
go out and prove it. And my opinion with regards
to proving it is do for traps. Put out camera traps.
Trail cameras are your best friend in the world. You know,
you get a clear, clear image on a trail camera
of a bigfoot and that's that. Like there's nothing anybody
can do about it, you know, So get for traps,
get trail cameras. Uh, just just narrow it in.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
There's a couple there's a couple of texts. I mean,
there's a couple of books written by acadecics PhDs. Once
doctor Jeff Melger, he is an anthropologist, and then there
was doctor John binnaugal As a wild apologist. They wrote
books for guys like you. But it seems almost no one, none,
none of the actively qualified people they wrote it for.
I've even read them.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
Interesting, I wonder why that is, do you think because
there's not enough people interes like why why is that?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I don't know the answer to that. I'm not familiar
with them, and I'm in the space.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
It's an unlikely, unlikely subject, unlikely uh special world species
really in an unlikely place, North America. We kind of
think that we've got this whole thing, you know, all
shut her down, like we know what's up here. You're
not going to surprise us with anything bigger than a shrew, right,
So I think that's part of it. Doctor Grover Krantz
often said that like anthropologists would be deeply embarrassed if
(37:58):
sasquatches were proven to be real, because how could they
have overlooked such a big thing right in their own backyard,
et cetera. But now with this idea, and like doctor
Meldrim's really pushing this forward more than anybody, this idea
of relati hominoids in general, you know, like that, you know,
with the various hominin species not dying off until very recently,
and with Homo sapiens overlapping in the timeline with them,
(38:20):
with like I think seven or maybe eight that we
know of different hominins, the idea that like the last
Homo standing now may not just be us. We may
be not alone on this planet, especially in these far
flung places of the planet world China or northern Russia
in that place, those sort of places, but there might
even be some in our own backyard. And I think
(38:40):
it's a really interesting question, even to the point where
Scientific American put it on the front page of the
one of their magazines a few years back.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
So fascinating.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
I mean, there is more and more evidence to show that,
you know, sort of Homo erectus.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
And caveman, if you will.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
And I forgive me, I don't know all the gene
not my field, but you know, basically, the primitive man
was here later and later than we realized. That seems
to be from my very superficial understanding of and correct
me if I'm wrong. Year after year we're like, oh,
turns out they were here. You know, first at first
we thought they were here a million years ago, and
now we think they're here one hundred thousand years ago.
(39:19):
And now we think they were here thirty thousand years ago.
Like it seems to just keep the timeline seems to
teams seems to keep moving up, which I always do
find quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
And more and more species, Like since you're a fan
of Indonesia, you know, Homo floresiensis obviously the hobbits and
the last the one that was published in May of
twenty nineteen, Homo loose on insists from the Philippines, and
just two weeks ago Lee Berger from in South Africa commented,
you know, he's the guy that that's excavating the Rising
Star cave where Homo nalidi was discovered, and that one
(39:51):
trove of hominin bones actually more than doubled the entirety
of the hominin data set, just that one cave more
than doubled it from what I understand. Mixed in with
the Homo nalidi, which is a whole new species that
Lee Burger discovered in South Africa in this cave are
apparently other specimens from an entirely different species they are
now trying to identify. There might be another Homo Homo
(40:13):
hominin discovery on the horizon in the near future.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
And I think that's you know, that's my world, not
humanoid species, but wildlife species in that kind of realm,
and I think that's fascinating. I think people do want
to know about that. I think they want to read
about that. You know, you're asking what citizen scientists can do.
You know, I don't think you should all put on
your Indiana Jones boots and get out there and start
digging around caves. But I think the furthering of that,
(40:37):
in the furthering of the spread of that information and
the understanding of that information, will lead to the ability
for more citizens scientists to be involved. And a perfect
example that I can give is I did an expedition
looking for the Ivory built woodpecker, which was a large
woodpecker species that occurred in the southeast and all the
way into Cuba. Since then, I have probably received no
(41:01):
less than seven thousand emails with reported sightings, videos, pictures,
et cetera. Now most of them are not credible, but regardless,
it's citizens scientists that are bringing this up, bringing it
to me to say, hey, I think I saw an
ivory build woodpecker right now, none of them have proven
it yet, but all it takes is one right, So
(41:21):
instead of me being one set of eyes out there
looking for this woodpecker for three and a half weeks
like we typically do on an expedition, Now I have
I'm making these numbers up, but ten thousand people in
the region out looking for this woodpecker with cameras, and
all it takes is one person to get lucky once
if that animal is still there, and a citizen scientist
(41:41):
has made a much larger impact than you know I
would ever be capable.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Of doing in a three week expedition.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
So as far as taking a holotype goes, I have
a little bit of a moral quandary, and I think
you probably do too, based on what you said about
killing something to prove it's real. But for sasquatches, if
you know, if that eventually comes to a head and
bigfoots are proven to be real, no matter how it
is proven to be real, they're gonna they're gonna.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Go kill them.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
They're gonna go kill several of them to study them.
There's just really no other way around it, because that's
the way how science works. But to get to that spot,
to even get the academics out there trying to hunt
these things, do you think there's any other way to
prove a species and to collect a holotype for a
new novel species never been seen before, because I can
(42:27):
see how photographs would work for something that we knew
was reel sixty years ago, you know, But for a
new novel, unexpected species like the sasquatch. Do you think
there's any other way to get that job done without
actually putting a bulletin one man?
Speaker 4 (42:41):
You know, I'd love to sit here and be like,
absolutely save it. You know, it's the only way. But
the truth is, the way that our our system is
set up, there is not you know, there really isn't.
Now if you if you turned up with a foot
of one or something like that, sure, right, or a
leg or an arm, you know that someone hit on
the car and that's what's left. Sure, But ahead of
having that specimen, No, the answer is no.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
The way I would handle it if I were targeting
these things is I wouldn't be out there with a gun.
I would study their ecology to the best of my ability,
and then I would create live traps, right. And you know,
in order to do that, you use use primitive survival guys,
you use engineers, et cetera, et cetera, which you know
I've done. I've built these giant crocodile traps and caught
(43:24):
big crocs and stuff like that. And a croc certainly
doesn't have the intelligence of a bipedal primate. But you know,
I think the only way short of killing one is
to catch one alive and the only and that's probably
an even harder task than shooting one.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bogo will be right back after these messages.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yeah, that's a problematic.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
And I guess that's why Krantz and Green and all
the early researchers always advocated for killing one, because it's
quick and clean and done, and it's over and that's
the end of the day, you know.
Speaker 4 (44:06):
And here's my two cents on something like that, Right,
a relatively unpopular opinion, probably among my type of followers.
But if you're gonna ask me, hey, will you go
kill an orca to save all the orcas? Right? We
love orcas. Killer whales are beautiful. Nobody wants to see
an orca killed, myself included. But if you told me that,
if I was the person that had to kill an
(44:26):
orca to save all the orcas, I would do it.
I would hate it, it would be miserable, it would
be one of the hardest things I'd ever have to do.
But for the greater good of the species, I would
absolutely do it. And I feel that way about any species. Now,
if there's two of them left and you take that approach, well,
obviously there's a big problem. But you know, if and
I don't know what you know, your guys estimated populations
(44:48):
are and everything else. But the point is, if if
one kill can save a species, it's a worthwhile kill
for the greater good.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
We figure there's three to ten thousand. Three to ten
thousand North America's kind of a guess.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
I mean, and if that's the truth, And again I
don't know what systems are in place, But if there
were three thousand of them and you killed one of them,
but killing one of them released funding and conservation and
habitat preservation, everything else, and that brought the population. Let's
say they are in jeopardy from three thousand to that
(45:19):
ten thousand, then that kill is worth it every time. Right,
And again, this is a terribly unpopular opinion. I'm nervous
even speaking about it, but it's how I feel.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
It's also reality, you know.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I mean, the reality is a question that being a
biologist like yourself, who's dealing with rare and a largely
maybe not well documented species, you know, or it thought
to be extinct, you have. That's a question that's on
your desk and you have to deal with it. And
I think it's a fair position to have, no matter
what various followers might say. I mean, this is something
that you have to wrestle with personally, So I think
(45:51):
it's a.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
And it doesn't matter how much you love them, you
know that if you want to save them, you got
to do what it takes.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Gentlemen, Thanks for having me today. I enjoyed chatting with you.
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Sorry that I expelled so much verbal diarrhea about science,
but it's what I get excited about.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
It's what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
We need to up the game of the Bigfoot community
in seat of chasing around voices in our heads and
thinking things are going on that aren't. We sure need
to start playing by the rules so we can be
taken seriously. And then this move this subject forward out
of the realm of ridiculous tinfoil hat wearing weirdos on
cable news into something that we can talk about relic
relic species of hominins that possibly existing in North America.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Sure makes sense to me. Thank you so much for
coming on. I loved it. Thanks, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Take care, have a good one. But I yeah, Force
was a great guest, you know, I know, try to
be REALI with the pure science approach, but man, I
wanted to kind of school him more on the sasquatch,
you know, like this is why they're real, and get him,
you know, more enthused on it, more interested.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Well, it sounds like his plate is full enough. And
you know, and nobody likes to be convinced of anything,
whether it's Bigfoot or politics or any Nobody likes to
have somebody else tell them why they're wrong.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
So it's I think it's better to take a softer hand.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
You know. He was open to it though, I mean,
he just he just really has not been exposed to
the information and the evidence.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Yeah. Yeah, I was hoping to have him chase and
go down the Gareth Patterson hole, you know, because I
think that he would he's aware of him as an author.
I think he would probably say a lot that he
has seen them with.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
His own eyes, right right.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
No, But I love that.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
I love the science because if bigfoots are real, there's
science behind it, no matter what people think it is
just because i'm you know, the paranormal side.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
It's the onus is on them.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
You know, we know that sasquatches are out there, or
at least I know the sasquatch, but we know that
the available evidence points to some sort of horminin or
at least hominoid, some sort of ape like manlike thing.
That their structure is exactly the same as all the
other species are more or less the same as all
the other species.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
In that group, the hominoid group.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Their fur is similar, their foot structures identical, the hands
are strongly resembling. So the paranormal people, the onus is
on them to show us that they're right, because so
far the evidence is strongly tilted towards a perfectly normal
biological species. So I love having biologists on and talking
about what they are looking into and how they're looking
(48:16):
into their subjects and maybe taking something away that we
can apply to the sasquatch.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Well, I think guys I came aren't aware that There's
been a lot of people that have applied scientific you know,
principles and protocols that you know that I got that,
I've gotten some stuff, you know, like North American what
a conservancy?
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Lots of people have in fact applied scientific method towards this,
but they haven't gotten very far. So I think he
would just throw that back, just like he did at
the Rangutan or the ring Pindeck, things like well why
is it? Then say why? I give them the reasons.
I think that a ring p indecks have not been
proven real, but I don't know at the end of
the day, and certainly it's a conundrum for the Sasquatch.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Well, that was a great interview with Forrest. We got
another one kind up next week, so until that time,
keep his squad.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you
get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram
at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on
Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle,
(49:25):
and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag
Bigfoot and Beyond.
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