Ep. 253 - Dave Schrader Goes Beyond! - Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Big Food and on with Cliff andBobo. These guys are you favorites,
so like to say subscribe and raidit five stary and greatest on yesterday and
listening watching them always keep its watching. And now your hosts Cliff Barrickman and

(00:29):
James Bobo Fay. Hello Bobo?How you doing man here? Do you
get what's going on? Cliff?All sorts of stuff as usual. I
had a pretty eventful weekend. Wecan get it out a little bit in
the members section here because we havea great guest when I was take too
long for it. But remember thosefake stompers I mentioned to you last time.
Yeah, I dug a little bitdeeper. Last Friday, I went

(00:50):
and interviewed two gentlemen. One ofthe gentlemen was one hundred and one years
old. The other gentleman was onlyninety four years old. I think it
was ninety four. Yeah, solike two hundred years of dudes in the
room, you know, plus me, And it was interesting. I didn't
get a lot of answers of whatI was looking for, but I got

(01:11):
some clarification about a couple of things. But I guess the most important thing
about all that stuff is looking backinto the interview with the guy who gave
me the stompers, because part ofthe deal with me getting the stompers was
he's going to tell me when heused them, the best of his recollection
and stuff. I tracked it down. Sure enough, I am ninety nine
percent sure those are the same stompersthat made the footprints that Barbara Wasson cast

(01:34):
in nineteen seventy four. I believeDecember nineteen seventy four. If you have
a copy of Barbara Wahson's book,Sasquatch Apparitions. Barbara was one of the
early researchers in the nineteen seventies,one of the only female researchers at the
time, a pioneer really in alot of ways, using data, crunching
numbers, working in the field witha bunch of other people, and collaborating

(01:55):
with them. Part of John Green'screw back in the early days. Is
a fantastic bigfooter. Yeah. Shestarts her book Sasquatch Apparitions telling the story
of these tracks. And I'll bedarned if the guy who gave me those
stompers, who I got the stompersfrom, he said the first time I
used them. It was down insouthern Oregon at this one location, and
sure enough, that's where she's talkingabout. Oh man, Yeah, well,

(02:19):
you know it's unfortunate. But atthe same time, now we know
she'd want another truth. Yeah,she would want another truth. I think,
you know, she definitely would wanto the truth. But nowadays,
you know, I have the originalcast. There's never been a copy made
of it. By the way,I owned the original cast because the NABC
owns the entire Barbara Wasson collection ofcourse for our archives. But I got

(02:40):
out the cast, I got outthe stompers, And not only does a
story match, but the actual printsmatch as well. So that's unfortunate in
one way and good in another way. But you know what makes me wonder
all these eighteen inch foot prints andstuff like that, this because this is
eighteen inches, I think, Ijust think that's too big, man.
I think that the males have Ithink the big males feet that are fifteen
or sixteen inches long. I thinkthose real, real big ones. I

(03:04):
want to take a real close lookat a lot of these things. I
bet some of them aren't real,and some are of course slippage as well,
because I always say, we havea footprint of an individual who has
fourteen inch feet that left an eighteenand a half inch footprint. But speaking
of tracks, I got something good. I think you're gonna like it.
You mightn't want to put in yourmuseum in some form. I got a

(03:24):
message today from Eric the big FootMuseum and Willowkirk. And after that we
had that meeting with the McCoy's withDave McCoy and he called his brothers and
cousins and all that soil McCoy's son. They listened to the podcast and they
are stoked. They're like, oh, we're so glad to hear our Fallow
getting the respect he deserves, youknow, in recognition. And they lit
a fire on their looking gung hofor everything, and they found a original

(03:47):
from the first time he cast tracksthe trackway. Eric got a copy of
a three minutes of film of themcasting it. It's a little washed out
with you know, to you light, I guess, but it's pretty good.
And he said it's decent enough.And I thought nat Click could put
that on a little loop for someof those Bluff Creek display or something.
Oh yeah, yeah, if Ican get a hold of it. I

(04:08):
can digitize it and give him backthe original so they still own it the
permission to use it in the shop. It'd be fantastic, Yeah, because
we have we have those We ownthose pictures from him Palm and sil McCoy
was directly involved in that stuff,right. You know, I am planning
on coming down. I'm going tocome down this summer and hang out.
Maybe you can come out with meor something, Bose. It's been a
while since we've been in the woodstogether, but I do want to see
how Bluff Creek fared during all thatfire and stuff. And I definitely planned

(04:30):
and dropping by the museum and talkingto Eric. I had a great conversation
with him when he called. Andyou know, he's not running the Willow
Creek Museum, but he's deeply involvedin it, and I'm clearly running this
museum. So we have a lotto talk about and some collaboration might be
a foot no pun intended. Yeah, Yeah, I'm glad he's thereon macas
he's got plans for us, Sothat's great. We could talk about to
this during the member section because there'salways stuff to talk about the member section.

(04:54):
Plus we always take questions every singleweek from our members. We'll get
to that later, but I don'twant to keep our guests on the line
much longer because I'm excited about thisone, and some people out there might
be puzzling about that. Because wehave a paranormal guest on and Cliff's excited
about it. Well you'll see whyhere. I think this is gonna be
great. Yeah, he's cool.I was on his show a couple of

(05:15):
times. He's a good dude.And of course, if you are interested
in here and what But when Italk about in the member section, we're
not hiding it from you. Butyou know, if you're interested in becoming
a member, there's a link inthe show notes, and we get an
extra episode every Thursday, so youget pretty much twice the Cliff and Bobo.
All right, we let's jump intoour guests tonight, and then I'm
very very pleased to have our friendon. Dave Schrader is our guest tonight.

(05:38):
He's a ghost dude. That's howI know him, Because you know,
I don't watch a lot of TVand stuff in general, but I
do know Dave from doing various gigsaround town and whatnot. He's been on
a couple of panels with me andjust I always have a great time speaking
with him. He's been on anumber of television shows at the Holser Files
The Ghost of Devil's Perch Where aretwo of the most recent ones. But
I think he's been on countless onesreally so I've never counted them, that's

(06:00):
for sure. But right now Ithink he has a very popular podcast called
Paranormal sixty And So Dave, DaveSchrader, welcome to big Foot and Beyond.
I'm so glad you can join us. Well, thank you both for
having me on. I appreciate this. You know, I've had Bobo on
my show when I used to beon Darkness Radio, and he was so
popular that I think we ended uphaving him back the next night to continue

(06:23):
our conversation and had a great time. So, and Cliff, you and
I always just seem to miss eachother when availability would open up. But
I'm glad I get a chance tovisit with you now and this is fantastic.
Thanks for having me in. Well, you know, it's hard to
have just one one helping of Bobo. You always want to have seconds when
you have that dish, you know, no doubt nice. And you know,

(06:46):
I don't do a lot of podcastsnowadays because I work on one,
you know, and it's like,you know, I bet a maid's house
is dirty, for example. Youknow. So I don't do a lot
of podcasts in my off time,but I'd be happy to do yours anytime.
Just give me a holler let meknow. So oh, you know
it, love to have you kamanand chat and catch up our audience on
all things cryptied as well. That'ssuch a huge, huge following that it's

(07:08):
strange to me, you know,as a guy who's been in the paranormal
field actively as a radio show hostfor eighteen years. First with Darkness Radio,
I was a fill in host onCoast to Coast for five years,
and then I've been doing my newpodcast, The Paranormal sixty for the last
three years. It's always amazing tome that I could come out with some
of the most unbelievably amazing stories ofreincarnation or demonic possession or hauntings that are

(07:33):
making the Amityville look like kiddie play. But then I do an episode on
Bigfoot and I get multiples of downloads, and I would get on any other
episode and it's great to see thatthat interest in fascination continues, but it's
kind of confounding and I'd actually loveto pick both of your brains. There's
so much going on in the worldand the concept that, you know,

(07:56):
alien disclosures kind of out there.Now there's ghost shows everywhere, but there's
always just one, maybe two bigfoot style shows going on. Why do
you think there's so much excitement thatcontinues in the field of cryptozoology because it's
real, Yeah, the real animals. It's as simple as that. I
mean, people wonder when the peoplewho don't think sasquatches are real wonder when

(08:18):
the whole thing's gonna go away.And it's like that's like asking, well,
gosh, you know what is thiswhole elk thing gonna go away?
You know what is this whole blackbear thing gonna go away? I'm tired
of it? I mean, arepeople gonna be finished talking about it?
It's like, no, there's alwaysgonna be hunters, you know, they're
always gonna there's gonna be outdoors peopleand there are always gonna be sasquatches around
because they're just here. You know. It is persistent because of the reality

(08:39):
of the species. I like it, and I love the fact that people
have this ongoing fascination when and again, being a guy on the outside and
having watched your shows and the othershows that have come out regarding cryptids and
Bigfoot in specific, it's it's alwaysfascinating to me that there's such fleeting amounts
of what would be considered really amazingevidence that I've had a chance to see.

(09:05):
But yet that's enough to just keeppeople really intrigued by the concept that
there might be this, whether it'sa ghostly creature, an interdimensional being,
or just a zoological creature we havenot yet identified. It's fun to watch
people really glom onto this and havesuch a deep love and respect and fondness

(09:26):
for that specific creature. Yeah.I think it might have something to do
with that we see a little bitof ourselves in them, you know,
because they're shaped like us, forexample, you know, like the general
morphology of a human being sort of, even though they're very very different from
us obviously in pretty much every aspect, but they are kind of like us,
and I think we kind of seethat and glom onto it in the

(09:46):
same sort of way that back inthe day you know, like nineteen sixties,
nineteen seventies, people got a kickout of, like watching it,
seeing a chimpanzee in a suit orsomething like that. Right, you know,
I think that there's something akin tothat. I'm not sure what that
word would be, but I thinkthere's something akin to that. It's just
unfortunately, I always find it unfortunatehow the depiction that the media gives the

(10:09):
subject and also the researchers. Youknow, the researchers are often depicted very
very poorly, like gullible tinfoil hatwear and weirdos, and mind you,
some of us are. But thesubject itself deserves such a higher level of
respect than what I feel it getson television and the internet and whatever else.
But at the end of the day, the subject is here, It

(10:31):
is real, and the animals arereal, just perfectly normal animals out in
the woods, and as long asthey're walking around, the mystery of the
subject will also be walking around,at least until Discovery Day whenever. That
is so, Just like Tenacious Tyis saying, which is you know that
Mother Effer is real, real,real, real sasquatch is real. There

(10:52):
you go, yeah, I thinkyou you'd have to finish that. I'm
not sure everybody would know that theywere. They actually said that you don't
know the Sasquatch song by ten AciousD, I do not, You don't
squash Your love is real. That'sgreat. It's an epic ballad and we'll
have some really hard rocking parts aswell. It's really the quintessence of prog

(11:13):
rock in some ways. See nobody'swriting good ghost story songs anymore. Yeah,
you know what, why not?Because there's a there's a there's a
whole lot of Sasquatch songs. Sowhat's up with that? Where the artists
in the ghost world? How comethey're not doing that? I don't you
know, I don't know. Imean there might be, they're just not
as vocal about it, and it'sjust a topic that you don't hear coming.
But I like one of my favoriteall time songs of any genre is

(11:37):
Charlie Daniel's Band The Legend of WoolySwamp and the Ghostly Stories and just the
concept of being deep out in thewoods and not knowing your surroundings and just
how dangerous it could be, andhow dangerous it is for the three brothers
that go and Seek of the Fortunethat is told to be out there.

(11:58):
But I just love that ghost story. That's a has been one of my
favorites, and I love the factthat it was all in a song format.
But of course, Charlie Daniels alsodid The Devil down in Georgia,
so there seems to be a lotof spiritual or you know, songs along
in his repertoire his songbook. Perhapscould it be, And I don't know,
I'm assuming a fair number of ghostpeople listen to this. Maybe they

(12:18):
don't they've had enough of me.I don't know, but perhaps could it
be that ghost people don't sing verywell? You know, I'm not gonna
even put that out there because I'ma huge fan of Bruce Springsteen and he's
got a bunch of songs about ghosts, and even as a song called The
Jersey Devil, So I'm going togive him the credit where credit is due.
At least, I know one guy'sstill putting out some songs with paranormal

(12:39):
slants and themes to them. Maybehe absorbed everybody else's talent. Yeah,
that would be the only excuse thatI can understand. I don't know,
I'm just messing with the ghost community. So because you know I'm not anti
ghosts, I get a lot ofthat in the shop or whatever. If
I'm out on a gig at oneof these speaking deals, people come up
to me, he says, Iknow you're not a paranormal guy, and
I know this in blahblah. Well, you don't know much because you know

(13:01):
I told you on stage. Rememberwhen we did the Oregon big Foot Conference
last year, I told you myghost story in front of everybody. You
know, like I do, thinkparanormal stuff happens, I just don't know
what that stuff is, and Iunder no circumstances to I think sasquatches are
in any way paranormal. You know, But that's just a when you look
at the weird fields that you know, you and I and everybody else looks

(13:24):
into. If you want to putthat under the umbrella of unknown or supernatural
or paranormal, I said, eh, okay, But sasquatch is a very
very small slice of that pie,and that's a very very boring slice of
that pie in some ways, becausethere isn't, in my opinion, anything
paranormal about it. But I'm intoall other weird things. How do you
think I got into big Foot inthe first place, is my thought.

(13:45):
You know, like, clearly you'renot like a perfectly normal person who just
happens to be interested in sasquatches.Whoa whoa, whoa, Bob, if
you're gonna if you're gonna argue nowthat you're a perfectly normal person, I
don't even know what to say toyou. I am, he is one
of the most normal people. Heknows well. I actually I've hung out
of your house for a week orso at a time, up in humblet

(14:09):
and between you know, you andJesse Legend and a heavy metal pat and
rubber arm Joe and all your otherweird muppet friends that come by. You
know, I guess you are prettynormal exactly. But didn't you tell me
once that I'm the most normal person? You know, you're the most normal
person that introduced to my parents asa friend. Oh okay, yeah,

(14:30):
you're the token normal friend. Ofcourse, I am. You had a
job back then. I've failed you. I've failed you well anyway, Dave,
Dave, So I've got a couplequestions for you now. Again,
I don't watch much TV. Maybethis is already out there or something.
Like that, but specifically the HolserFiles, Right, that was one of
the shows you're on, And apparentlyI was reading a little bit about it

(14:54):
in preparation for the interview here,and what I get is that there was
a historic ghost person or paranormal personcalled doctor Hans Holzer and that that show
explored his files. Is that?Is that the correct slant of the show?
There the synopsis? Yeah, doctorHans Holzer had been around. You
know, he's a very pre eminentparanormal investigator. They call him one of
America's first ghost hunters. He hada TV series known as ghost Hunters.

(15:20):
Long before the ghost Hunters TV seriescame out. He was on Network news
all the time. He put theWhaley House in San Diego on the map
while investigating it with his friend RegisPhilbin, who captured weird experiences on film.
He reduced, Yeah, if youlook online. As a matter of
fact, they did that Celebrity ghostStories or My ghost Stories a few years

(15:43):
ago where they would take some ofthese celebrities back to the locations that you
know that upset them, that theyhad these encounters with. And Reis talked
very openly about his his paranormal encountersat the Whaley House. Well, that's
the weirdest thing I've heard all day. Yeah, good begun, doctor Holzer.

(16:03):
He really you know, he wroteover I think it was one hundred
and eighty five books on just aboutevery angle of the strange and supernatural,
from witchcraft to UFOs, to miraclepriests, to ghosts and hauntings and famous
haunted locations, And like him,I have such a love and fascination of
history that it was just so whenthey opened the door to me to let

(16:26):
me in to investigate his files,I jumped on it because when they first
when they first reached out, they'relike, hey, Dave, you know,
hey, we're aware of you.We're interested in having you lead on
a ghost show. And I'm like, oh, I think I'm good.
Thanks, And they were like,well, no, this is TV.
And I'm like, yeah, Ithink i'm good. That's what I'm saying.
No, don't you understand that it'sgoing to be polite, right,

(16:47):
But I'm like, there's enough ghostshows and I don't want to just be
part of a cookie cutter cast.And they're like no, no, no,
this is totally different, And Isaid, how's it different? Well,
it's just going to be three ofyou. And I said, I
think that show is called Ghost Adventuresand he goes, no, no,
no, one of you is goingto be a medium and a psychic and
I said, oh, so it'skind of like dead Files. No no,
no, it's I can't tell youuntil you agree that you want to

(17:11):
be a part of this. AndI'm like, well, we're in an
impasse then, because I'm not goingto be a part of something I don't
know more about. So I signedsome thick phone book style NDA and as
soon as I signed it, theysaid, we're reopening the case files of
doctor Hans Holzer and that's all theygot out of their mouths. And I'm
like, I'm in, count mein. This will be amazing, So
I was willing to do that.They had all the original video, photographs,

(17:33):
audio recordings, handwritten notes, everythinghe had done over his like forty
five fifty year span of investigating thesupernatural. And I was, man,
I grew up reading Hans Holzer's books, so to get a chance to follow
in his footsteps. And another interestingtie I had to doctor Holzer was our

(17:53):
radio show. We were the lastradio show that he did before he sadly
passed away. Yeah, because helived until I think I remember a two
thousand and nine or something like that, so pretty much around two thousand and
eight, two thousand and nine thathe passed away. And you know,
I became friends with his daughter,Alexandra, and she was a part of
this program. So it really itwas a great opportunity. I'm glad we

(18:17):
got to do it for two seasons. I in all their haste to get
the show on the air, Ithink they mis named it. You know,
Holzer Files is really cool if youare a triedent and true paranormal fan
and know who doctor Hans Holzer was. But you know, he had passed
away in two thousand and eight,two thousand and nine. He wasn't on
any of the big paranormal TV seriesof our time here since you know,

(18:41):
the relaunching about two thousand and one, with all of the different glut of
paranormal style shows that came out,so he wasn't as familiar. And I
kept telling him, could we let'sname the show Holzer's Ghost Files. I
think if the audience knows what,you know, what the files are that
we're investigating. Otherwise it sounds likea seventies toctive show, and they didn't

(19:03):
change the name. We built,you know, a nice gathering, but
just not enough to keep us onfor a third season. It's hard to
find a producer who had listen,you know, and think that, oh,
the host that's been doing this forthirty years may know a little bit
more about the subject than I do, because I've been researching this for six
months. Yeah. No, I'velearned that in the world of TV,

(19:23):
everybody is smarter than you. SoI just, you know, nod and
smile and do my job the bestto my abilities. And that's that's all
I did. They rolled Cindy Caseof the Medium and I that were on
The Holzer Files over to another programcalled The Ghosts of and we were brought
out to Butte, Montana to investigate. And we stayed there for a little

(19:44):
over ninety days, just living andbreathing and sweating in that same town with
the people, and it was itwas a great experience. But holy cow,
what a bunch of weird paranormal thingsare going on in that town.
And there's everything from UFO sightings tocryptids to ghosts and what they believe are
demons. So that was another headtrip to be a part of a program

(20:06):
like that. Stay tuned for moreBigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo will
be right back after these messages.When so much variety of weird stuff happens
around a location in particular, doyou think it has more to do with

(20:27):
the people or the location itself.There's people like Bobo, for example,
I believe, and I don't wantto put words in his mouth. You
can refute this if you choose bobes, but like, he's very strong.
He's a strong advocate of the vortexkind of idea, you know, or
the skinwasher or Skinwalker ranch thing outin Utah, or any of these number
of things. You think it's alocation deal or is it a people deal.

(20:49):
I think it's a mixture of both. I think that like in the
case of Butte Montana, here you'vegot this gorgeous land and it drew all
these people because of the minerals thatwere in the earth, the silver,
the gold, and the copper,which is really what was so big there.
And you know they built this itwas the wild West. Baby.

(21:10):
There were you know, shootouts andyou had such a it was a mining
town that were twenty four to seven, so did the brothels. There were
blocks of whorehouses that ran twenty fourhours a day, and there were levels
to the whorehouses that you could visitdepending on how much money you made.
So there, you know, literallythere was elite on the top floor all

(21:32):
the way down to guys that weremaking pennies. There was something for everybody,
and it was a town, youknow, in violence, steeped in
shootouts and fisticuffs and you know,sex and violence and money and greed.
And I think that that taints theground after a while, that that kind
of anxiety, that kind of stress, can have an impact and an effect

(21:56):
on an area. And I don'tknow if people are drawn to a specific
place because of the energy that's there, or do we create this rift,
this vortex because of the way wetreat a location, its history and the
people that walk that place before wewere there. Maybe one begets the other.

(22:17):
It's hard to say, because thereare some places that are extremely haunted
that we have nobody died here.We don't know why this is so active,
you know, And not only that, but they're seeing UFOs in the
sky and people in the neighborhood havehad bigfoot encounters, and it's just to
me, it's astonishing because I can'tfigure out what is it about this?

(22:38):
It ends up like an episode ofStranger Things. It's just like Bobo loves
these vortex these portal spots that justseem to be a hotbed of activity of
many different styles. Interesting. Yeah, I wonder about those. Why is
it? I mean, because NativeAmericans those are tens of thousands of years.

(22:59):
It's like, aren't more of theirghosts scene? I mean, I
know they're scenes sometimes, but seemslike they should be seen a lot more.
That's a great question, and againnobody has the one answer. I
often wonder though, if time isnot linear, if it is like the
string theory, and it's a bigball of timey wymy wibbley wobbly stuff,
right, and it's could it bethat the timeline of eighteen hundred to nineteen

(23:26):
twenty twenty one happens to being,you know, laying over the timeline of
two thousand to two thousand and thirty, And as time and space continue to
change and undulate, well, willthe next layer of time lay upon Native
American spirits or ancient Rome? Willwe see more of that taking place.

(23:48):
It also may have to do withthe belief systems of the locations. You
know, the native people and indigenoustribes were so respectful of their dead and
did everything they could to put thesethese people and beings and spirits to rest
that I think that there's not thatsame dissension and even the brutal murders that
took place and this enfranchising these tribespeople, which is heartbreaking to talk about.

(24:15):
I think that they were on adifferent level of evolution in a mindset
that although the death was not somethingthat they would have wanted or chosen,
I think they felt that in thebattle that they did to try to save
their people, save their culture,they move on because it was a heroic

(24:36):
deed. So I think there's someelements of that. I also think it
also, you know, we seethese cyclical moments when paranormal seems to be
in resurgence, and there was thateighteen hundreds to early nineteen hundreds, famine,
disease, pestilence, all of thesehorrible things that were taking place,
and people were constantly calling out tothe spirit realm and spiritualists. Did we

(24:57):
rupture something in doing that? Thatthat's why we see that time era,
and we don't see the time eraof other places. And maybe the places
that do, say the Native Americanspirits, are places like Skinwalker Ranch or
you know, deep in the wildernesswhere we don't walk still, and that

(25:18):
may be where the indigenous spirits andtribes people still gather. No, that
brings an interesting question to my mind, at least, at least I think
it's interesting researchers, at least inBigfoot. I don't know if this is
true in ghosts or not. Researchersare honestly seem to be kind of few
and far between. Most of thepeople in the Bigfoot world tend to be

(25:40):
like fans of the subject or ficionados, you know, but almost nobody has
really taken notes, like using Excelsheets and you know that kind of stuff,
looking for patterns, and almost nobodyreally, very very few people.
Are there people doing that in theghost field or are they doing the equivalent
of going out and banging on treesand listening for something and maybe bringing a
recording home, you know, whichis I guess, Like, I don't

(26:02):
know. I've seen a few minutesof occasional ghost shows like I guess yelling
at a wall or something and sayingare you there? I don't know.
I know very little about the ghostworld, you know, I'd be very
honest. I know almost nothing aboutall this, so this is all new
to me. We're not that different, Cliff. We go into dark areas
by ourselves and we do our ownversions of the whoop, hello, is

(26:22):
there anyone here? Knock on thewall if you can hear me, and
you bang the walls hoping they're goingto bang back. So our shows are
not that different in that concept ofhoping finding a way to connect with something
and get those answers. But thereare a lot of different organizations that have

(26:44):
been working. The Ryan Institute UCLAused to have a huge parapsychological department.
Doctor Barry Taff work there. Thelma, oh gosh, her last name is
escaping me. But there have beena lot of different places and still that
continue to investigate these type of phenomenonto understand it or try to, and

(27:07):
they take the time to corroborate evidenceand what they find. You know,
what are we able to tell?My friend Bill Chappele, who is the
engineer, He's created so many amazingfun interesting tools for the paranormal trade and
investigating ghosts. He will tell youhe's not necessarily a believer in ghosts.
He can't tell you what's activating thesepieces of equipment, but he'll take our

(27:30):
theories and build equipment around it asan actual electrical engineer to see can these
things be influenced by an outside source. And he had a tool called the
Paranormal Puck and it was not realflashy, it wasn't real pretty. You
plugged it into your laptop, youran the software, but it would calibrate
and tell you what the temperature is, what the do point average was,

(27:52):
what the geomagnetic principles of the areayou were in. It gave you all
of this background stuff that nobody reallycared about because everybody just wants to see
a ghost. And he had tonsof data, but nobody would bother to
look at the data in correlation withwhat was taking place. It became more
of a thrill in an entertainment industrythan it did a scientific principle. And

(28:18):
I know I'm going to take heatfor saying that, because there are teams
out there that claim their scientific butlike you, where are there their reports?
Where is their scientific work and whohave they peer reviewed with? And
you know what's going on that justdoesn't exist anymore. Well so amongst the
data gatherers. So it sounds likethere are some which is which is good
to hear, of course, youknow amongst the data gatherers, has there

(28:41):
ever been a study already publishing orwhat's the gist of the apparitions or whatever?
For Lafe a better term that areobserved? Are there are there a
predominance of a certain time period?Kind of going back to what we were
talking about before, like our mostghosts, you know, Victoria, for
example, Victorian era eighteen hundreds tothe early nineteen hundreds. It's like,

(29:03):
you know, usually in that roundhouseof about maybe eighteen seventies to nineteen twenty
one, depending on the type ofgarb, the things that they do or
say or have been witnessed doing.But being a fan of science as well,
I'm not necessarily sure that we're seeinga dead person in the way that
you think we are. Well,which is what I want to ask you
next, like is that what we'redealing with? Because I'm friends with a

(29:26):
fair number of ghost folks, andit seems the jury is out like that.
They're not necessarily dead people that peopleare encountering. So what's going on
you think? I think some ofit is time slip phenomena. I think
the concept that there are just pointswhere you can you know, you're sharing
a location. You're sharing a placethat has always existed and always will exist.

(29:51):
It's been in many different forms,but the spot you're sitting on has
always existed and always will well afteryou're gone and well before you were here.
And every person that treads that areais like a page in a book,
and from time to time, Ithink those pages align and you can
kind of see the text through onepage into another. And you know,

(30:11):
like the movie The Others with NicoleKidman where she's hearing these ghostly sounds and
voices and she's being tormented and spoileralert on a twenty year old movie,
it turns out that they're the deadpeople and the voices she's hearing are people
from the future that are living inthat house. And I really do think
that there are elements of that thathave occurred. You know, ghost Hunters

(30:36):
did a TV episode when they wentto I think it was Mount Washington uh
And Hotel, and they were engagingwith the spirit and they you know,
Princess, can you hear us?Can? Yes, I can hear you.
This is my room. Where areyou? What kind of game are
you playing? And she was goingto get security, So that tells me
in her consciousness, she must havebeen in her room hearing these voices.

(30:59):
When I was at Waverly Hills Sanatoriumin Kentucky, it was a tuberculosis clinic,
tens of thousands of people reportedly died, and then it was a geriatric
home in hospital, and nurses anddoctors talked about it being haunted at its
time. And when we were thereinvestigating, I was with two other fellow
investigators. We rounded the corner anda nurse walked around, stopped and looked

(31:21):
at us. Her eyes got huge, she turned and ran the other direction.
It's an old, dilapidated building atthat point, there aren't nurses working
there. What did we just witness? And to her, did she tell
somebody in her time era? Ijust saw three ghosts in the hall.
I just saw three men that werethere. They came out of nowhere.
And you know that's what's so fascinatingto me about this. I can't give

(31:45):
you one specific answer to what thisphenomenon is how it happens, because I
think there's many different layers to hauntings, and that's what keeps me so fascinated
and intrigued by this. Is atthe Washington Hotel. The Wash in a
hotel in New Hampshire, Vermont upthere. Yeah, that's right, Yeah,
Mount Washington. We were there andMoneymaker conjured up a ghost. Yeah.

(32:07):
We filmed Finding Bigfoot episode there.That's where we stayed, and we
were out in the woods doing stuffor whatever. But on our night off
or whatever, I wasn't involved inall that because Melissa was on the crew
and I was hanging out with her. But but everybody else went ghost hunning
that night and weird stuff happened.Well, our sound person or tech she

(32:27):
saw it. She saw it,and uh, it was up in the
ceiling area, like scrolling around andshe didn't even know that that's where the
workers. It was like in thisone landing kind of like vestibule area or
whatever, and on the staircases andthey said, oh, yeah, that's
a really calm place to see it. But yeah, Moneymaker had his Himalay
like Tibetan Tibet like bowl, singingbowl that he brought with him from Tibet

(32:52):
or from from the ball. Rather, he got one of those when we
were out there doing the eddy stuff, and he brought it and he goes
he's like doing the thing on andhaving fun with it, right, and
the resonance of the bowl. Look, Native American and indigenous tribes, people
will talk about music and these thingsthat will help them connect to the spiritual

(33:13):
realm and to nature. I knowplaces that use singing bowls to try to
communicate with alien life forms. Iknow people that use them in the spiritual
realm to try to communicate with angryspirits and try to bring some harmony.
So it's interesting how there are commonalitiesand threads throughout all of the different levels
of what's considered supernatural or paranormal.And it is funny to me that Bigfoot

(33:37):
still falls under that umbrella for manypeople. Right. The cryptids are still
in that realm of the supernatural,and you know, just like they're cryptozoological
until we find one and now itbecomes zoological and it will no longer be
supernatural. It'll be just part ofour natural world. But it's interesting to
me that there are these different layersof the tapestry that still do seem to

(34:00):
connect things like Bigfoot sightings, alienor UFO sightings, and haunted hotspots.
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and beyondwith Cliff and Bobo. We'll be right
back after these messages. You say, haunted, do you guys make a

(34:22):
delineation between older like entities that arelike spirits or demons or whatever you want
to call them, versus just humansouls like in a different time work kind
of thing. Yeah, That's whatI was mentioning is there's all of these
different layers to what a haunting couldbe. And I think you're short sighted
if you just want to pigeonhole ghostsare this, you know, aliens are

(34:45):
this. I think there's many differentpossibilities to what these beings are, and
if we limit ourselves, it mightlimit our ability to look at them more
scientifically, to find a way tocommunicate, find ways to and circumvent the
normalcy of communication of things that we'dsay, this can't be real, this

(35:06):
can't exist. So let's put ourmindset in a different way. If we
examine it differently, can we findsomething that will actually make sense and start
to help us bridge that chasm andunderstand more about the spiritual realm. I
think there's times that they knew moretwo hundred years ago about ghosts and the
spiritual realm than we understand about itnow. Same with creatures, right,

(35:27):
And you know the reverence people hadfor the mountain gorillas, but everybody thought
that it was a lie. Itwasn't until I think it's only been like
one hundred and seventy years, onehundred and eighty years since gorillas were officially
found. It is like eighteen fiftytwo or something like that. And mountain
gorillas, I believe we're nineteen ohtwo. I probably am a year or
two often one of those. Butyeah, right, And isn't that absurd

(35:52):
to think that that far along inour history, which is just a drop
of water and the microchasm of theuniversal ocean that we're a part of.
That's such a small percentage that wecould say we've only known about this creature
legitimately for the last couple hundred years, something we take for granted. Good
girls have always been around. Yeah, I tell you know, what are

(36:15):
the things that makes me really lamentour situation in the human situation In some
ways is that most people don't realizethat science is in its infancy at this
moment, in its infancy one hundredand thirty years ago, about we didn't
know about germs, for God's sake, you know, like we have barely

(36:37):
begun our journey into the unknown.You know, most of our human history
has been a wash in superstition andmythology. Essentially, the science wasn't even
a thing, you know, untilprobably, I don't know, eighteen thirty
or something like that, eighteen fifty. Before that, they were called naturalists.
And then science wasn't even a thing. And we think we're all advanced

(36:58):
because we have, you know,iPhones in our now now we're infants.
And before that it was witches andshaman and it was magic, these things
that we were taking, these plantextracts that they would crush up and then
give to you for headache powder,and that's what we now call aspirin.
Right, it's so funny that scienceis not that far along. Even in

(37:22):
this baffles my mind. We stillcannot figure out where consciousness exists in a
human being. We can't even definewhat consciousness is. And death is constantly
changing what we believed even ten yearsago about death is radically different now,
and we're realizing that there may beconsciousness in a physical body once the heart

(37:46):
stops for up to four hours.What do you think about this idea that
I've seen slowly start spreading, Ithink amongst the paranormal world, and I
think that's some bigfooters fall into thisas well. And I don't think it
fits sasquatch stuff at all, ofcourse, But you know me, I'm
pretty practical about this whole animal thing. But the other paranormal stuff, I

(38:07):
think the jury's out. I don'tknow anything about it. I'm coming from
a place of ignorance, and I'mgoing to enjoy that ignorance. You know,
ignorance is bliss. I'm gonna bepretty happy about this for the moment
because I don't know much. Thisidea of like the grand unification theory of
the paranormal, where some people insteadof ghosts and demons and this and that's
and whatever is, they just referto it as the phenomenon. What do

(38:29):
you think about that? Or isthat boiling it down too much and maybe
disrespecting certain aspects of these other phenomenon. Well, I can see that element
of it. But I also seethe fact that if we just accept it
as one thing, that it becomesless ominous because look, I can sit
here and talk to you about ghostsand demons because I've encountered things that I

(38:52):
would put into those categories. Tome, the concept of this hairy,
hominid, bipedal creature that could benine to fourteen feet tall depending on who
you speak to, that's there onesecond, go on the next. That
would be an easy roll of theeyes and snicker right about you guys actually

(39:13):
believe this thing exists. But thenI'm two seconds later talking about ghosts and
demons, which to somebody else soundsridiculous. So if we normalize it and
take away the stigma of well,this is weird, that's not is the
theay folk. Is that any lessweird than Bigfoot? I don't think so,
because it's gone back in culture,like the indigenous tribes have talked about

(39:36):
Bigfoot and have seen them as youknow, a fellow race of indigenous people
to a creature, to something almostgodlike in some instances, that aliens kind
of fit that same realm. Ghostsfit that same realm. So if we
come together on one common ground andsay this is phenomenon, and this may
all be tied together, it maybe different, but at least we take

(40:00):
the time to look at it.Because if you take out part of science,
you take out you know, we'reexamining blood, but we don't want
to look at platelets because platelets aren'tour thing. We're all about, you
know, white blood cells. Well, then you're missing a big part of
the full you know, spectrum ofthe picture. So I think that by
having this kind of universal approach tolook at this, I think that could

(40:22):
be a healthier way for us allto examine it. Take it a little
bit more seriously, and you know, the pegs will fall out for the
weak links, for the things thatdon't make any sense. There's nothing word
about the faithfolk though, well JamesBobo faith. There's something pretty weird about
that one, right. But here'sthe old thing. I remember having this
discussion with Rosemary Ellen Guiley. Shewas the Queen of the Nighttime World,

(40:45):
another prolific author we lost a fewyears ago, and speaker and teacher,
and she she kind of put mein my place one day because I was
laughing about the fact she had abook about fairies coming out, and I'm
like, oh my god, seriously, and she's like, why is that
so stupid and funny to you?And I'm like, they're fairies, that's
Disney stuff, and she goes,well, Dave, do you realize how

(41:07):
many Disney movies have creatures and ghostsin them? Do you scoff at that
because that's been represented in your shows? And I'm like, well, no,
but that's different. How is thatdifferent? These stories predate ghost stories
in some instances. They will lookat the Fay and these elemental beings as
something that predate even Christianity, theGin and many things that are referred to

(41:31):
and referenced in the Bible that predateknown man in history. It's really kind
of compelling. And she gave meanother way to look at it. She
said, you'll look at Bigfoot andsay, yeah, that could be real.
You'll look at ghosts and say,oh sure, and aliens of course.
But the Fay, No, thatcan't be possible. She said,
that's being ridiculous. There is somethingto that. People have this, you

(41:53):
know, love and compassion and respectfor it in other countries. And then
I started reading news stories in thetwo thousands, not not meaning that there's
been over two thousand new stories,But I mean since the two thousands began,
I have found new stories where multiplecountries and cultures have diverted major roadways

(42:15):
to avoid troll houses or fairy ringsor fairy mounds or giant mounds because they
don't want to disturb that culture,that being or set of beings. So
there must be something to it thatmakes it much more real than we would
give it credit to. So youknow, I've learned to be open to

(42:35):
all of it. I don't scoffat anything anymore, no matter how ludicrous
it may sound to me, becausejust because it hasn't been my experience doesn't
mean that it isn't real. Youknow, there is a parallel of that
in the Sasquatch world, even theflesh and blood Sasquatch world, you know
where I tend to dwell, Andit's that this idea of relati hominoids,
you know, Harry hominoids worldwide,because almost certainly like the Iran, for

(43:00):
example, is not the Sasquatch.It's a different species. But we don't
know that jury's out about the Jorenor the Yowie or even the Alma.
That the Alma has so many differentcharacteristics, and then there is actually a
footprint evidence of the Alma and itdoesn't seem to be a sasquatch, but
still, and the discovery of anyof those would benefit the all of the

(43:20):
others in that people would be moreopen to their possibility. So perhaps there's
a that's a parallel of what you'reactually describing, but in the you know,
the unknown mystery ape world, right, And it's all fascinating and interesting
that these cultures exist like this.And I'll tell you what. There are
times where you can tell me yourstory and your experience. I don't have

(43:40):
to believe it. And sometimes whatI find more fascinating than anything is why
you believe in these things. Sothat's part of the human element, is
learning and exchanging of ideas and conceptsand seeing what might make sense to you
once you've heard somebody else's theology orbelief system on it. Now, speaking

(44:00):
of believing, I know you're veryopen to all sorts of things, but
you believe sasquatches are real, rightin some sort of way? Right now?
Is that based on an experience oris that because the evidence, or
is that you've heard so many storiesor what's going on there? Well,
listen like you guys. I grewup in the era of In Search of
and I saw that footage when theystarted sharing it of the Patterson Gamelin film.

(44:24):
I was also born in nineteen sixtyseven the same year, so that
had a fascination for me right thatfootage came out, So I always thought
that was cool, But I didn'tstart taking notice of that until mid seventies
when it was on TV all thetime, and when I would go down
to visit my grandparents in seventy fourseventy five to Folly, Alabama. My

(44:49):
grandparents owned forty acres of property andonly about ten acres was livable. The
rest was just wildness, right,and there were snakes and water moccas and
snakes and alligators in the back becausethey had ponds and water streams back there,
so it was not a safe placeto be as a kid. But
we used to go play in thatarea all the time. And one time

(45:14):
my cousin and I were down bythe pond at probably about nine ten o'clock
in the morning fishing and we justheard something big tramping around out there,
and we kept looking at each otherkind of like, well, you're here.
I guess I'm okay, right,it's that safety in numbers. But
it was big, whatever it was, and we could hear it stomping around.
And then finally at the back ofthe pond there were these tall shrubs

(45:37):
and bushes that maybe eight nine feettall, and I see this hand come
up over the top of the bushand it pushes the bush down. And
now I can see from about thetip of the nose up of this being
that I believe was a sasquatch,but it had a darker inset face.
It had this kind of blackish graymaine and the hair came up over its

(46:01):
fingers like Chewbacca's hair. Right.It wasn't just like you would think of
a gorilla. It was like long, drapy hair. And my cousin and
I just literally my brain broke.We just stared at this thing and then
looked at each other and turned backaround and looked at this thing staring at
us, and then we scooby dootedup the hill. And half of the

(46:23):
thing we're laughing about is we're goingto get up there and find out it's
one of our idiot dads in agorilla mask trying to freak us out.
We get up to the house.Our dads are there, our cousins are
there, our grandpas are there,our uncles are there. Everybody's accounted for,
and we were so spun out byit that they all grabbed their rifles
and went out into the woods looking. And at that time, nobody was

(46:44):
thinking, go to the area whereit stood and look at the ground.
Are their footprints. I'm sure thatthere was regret because my uncle grew to
love bigfoot stories and I'm sure healways kind of kicked himself for never having
gone to look at that space.But that was the perfect environment for something
like this to live because ten acresis livable. It leaves you, you

(47:07):
know, thirty acres of woodland areathat nobody goes into really because of all
of the other inherent dangers that areout there. So it's kind of a
safety zone and safety buffer for whatevermight be existing. And my grandparents saw
UFO activity over their property, Soagain, here's a nexus point where here's

(47:28):
a creature, here's alien UFO thingsthat have been seen over their property.
It's it's kind of telling again thatin some of these places it just aligns
properly. So yeah, having hadthat experience as a child, it's always
been niggling at the back of myhead that I think I had a big
Foot sighting. Now I also amhonest to the fact that I was ten

(47:50):
eleven years old when it happened.It could have been a homeless man,
big homeless guy wearing a tattered jacket, and I misunderstood what I saw,
but it was so big and crunchingaround. My dad and uncle and grandfather
used to go out hunting in partof the back of the woods and you
could hear him walking and it wasjust a this was like when it was

(48:15):
walking, it was with force,and you know, it just sounded different
and big and loud. So thatwas really kind of an instigation for me
to really be fascinated by Bigfoot.And then the other part to me that
I absolutely love is the fact thatthe Peterson Gimblin Bigfoot film to me,

(48:37):
is one of the coolest examples ofthis phenomenon because as time has progressed and
we're able to stabilize the film,clear up the film, and scientifically look
at it, to me, itonly gets better. Where I would have
thought that with the abilities that we'vegot. It would have degraded the footage

(48:58):
and made it look worse or madeit so glaringly obvious that it was a
costume. And I think that,and I don't know where you guys stand
on this particularly, but that footageto me, still holds the test of
time fifty six years later, Staytuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff
and Bogo. We'll be right backafter these messages. And then who are

(49:28):
your two detractors? And I'll getemails from your fans and listeners. It'll
be like you're a moron and talkingout of your ass. You don't know
what you're discussing. It was aprank put on by Bob Huronymous and I
can't remember the name of the costumeroff the Philip Morris, and I actually
had both of those gentlemen on myradio show and I talked to them about

(49:49):
it, and they, oh,it was awesome we created the costume,
and I said, okay. Soin nineteen sixty seven, the Planet of
the Apes came out. That wascutting edge technollogy makeup with millions of dollars
put into the work. There wastwo thousand and one a Space Odyssey,
which opens with these bipedal Harry homididsthat looked like crappy, long haired gorilla

(50:12):
costumes. Really bad. The onlyother thing that was even close to looking
realistic were the monkeys Mickey, Davey, Peter and Mike right. The rest
the rest of the costumes and everythinglooked cartoonish. And that's I love the
Planet of the Apes movies, butit still looked like a costume. So
you mean to tell me that thatin nineteen sixty seven you created a costume

(50:35):
out of an old gorilla costume andfootball pads that stands the test of time
today that we can actually see musclestructure in the calves, the thighs and
the back as it's walking away.And when they gave you the opportunity to
recreate this in the early two thousands, or maybe it was at late nineties,

(50:58):
they gave them the ability to recreatea costume with the new technology that
exists. Their costume looked junkier thansomething my kids could have put together.
And that was a professional costumer.What was their response to that, because
I'd never spoken to either of thosemen. H Philip Morris just well,
no, yeah, you know Imean that was like at the top of
the line costume back in the day, and Brob, I said, right,

(51:20):
But the fact that you could notreproduce it forty years later with new
technology and better costumes, because theJacklink's bigfoot has been around now for what
twenty years, and that costume andfootage is amazing. You couldn't even get
close to that with the schlocky costumethat you put together and had Heronymous walking

(51:45):
around in. And they, youknow, I was very polite throughout the
conversation, but I pushed on thesepoints and they couldn't give me an answer
I felt was real. I feltit was all very disingenuous and to what
end. I don't understand why disavowit unless they felt like they got cut
out of something. And as faras I understand, there wasn't a lot

(52:05):
of money that was made, andreally the only one that really made the
money was Patterson on the footage,and I don't even know that that's a
reality. Maybe you guys can answerthat element for me. He made some
money, yeah, he and alViatley made money, but they cut Bob
out of it. Bob never reallymade anything out of it. In fact,
Bob told me he sold all rightsto his one third share of the

(52:29):
film The Reneeda Hinden for one dollarbecause he was so tired of being called
a liar and you know, almostbroke up his marriage and ruined his life
in a lot of ways. Buthe made enough money that he went to
Indonesia on a wild goose chase becausehe received a letter saying that they had
a live sasquatch like creature in anIndonesian monastery. And he spent his money

(52:54):
that he earned by taking it ontour and going to places like the Spokane
Colisee, in the Portland Coliseum andwhatever else. He spent all that money
on a trip to Indonesia on awild goose chase. Wasn't that they believed
that they had like the top ofthe skull. No, No, that
you're thinking of the Pingbolche skull inthe Pingbolcha hand, which is in the

(53:15):
Himalayas A little bit different. Theysaid they had a live sasquatch in a
cage. And in fact, anumber of years ago a gentleman who at
the time was an anthropology student inEastern Washington, I believe, contacted me
and said that he was the guythat Roger kind of lined up to pull
some shenanigans if they had to,because he was going to go try to

(53:36):
buy the sasquatch from the monks atthe monastery, but if things went sideways,
he was willing to steal it,and he had an anthropologist on hand
to help him with it if incase it ever went that far. But
it never did or anything, sothere was nothing illegal going on, but
apparently he sure thought about it.So that seems like an awfully weird thing
to do if you're if you youknow, put somebody in a suit and

(53:59):
filmed it. And he died inbasically poverty in like what seventy two,
seventy three, I think it wasseventy three, I think, Yeah,
he died thinking that with more moneyhe could probably cure himself of the Hodgskins
disease that killed him. So yeah, it's unfortunate but weird behavior for someone
who easily hoaxed such a great andcompelling piece of footage. Well, and

(54:20):
then the problem, you know,in all of our industries is there's got
to be some p T. Barnumjackuad out there who's got to do things
that really cast a pall over whatwe're trying to look at and accomplish.
And you know, you know,those are things that have put a deep
blemish on the fascination for a lotof people. They just expected all to

(54:44):
be hokum and nonsense. Yeah,it really gives the subject a black eye
where people hear about these hoaxes orthese twisted tails and they think there's nothing
there. There's because the cool stuff, the subtle, slow erosion into the
truth, you know, to thetruth, not of the truth. You
know, this this this erosion ofignorance as we learn more and more about

(55:06):
the animals themselves. That stuff isn'tflashy, it's not sexy, and that
stuff doesn't get any play on themedia. Unfortunately because of it, you
know, we have. We hadtrouble with our TV show for the same
reason. You know, it hadto be you know, flashy and cool
and had to hook people because yougot to get them around for that commercial
break. I mean, I thinkBobo go to to test to this.

(55:27):
I've got I got a hundreds ofemails from people saying you're doing this all
wrong. You're banging on trees makingnoise. Dope. You guys are jackasses.
You should go sit in a treestand and blow descent and be quiet
and thinking, well, that's horrible, horrible television. First of all,
no one's ever going to watch that. But you know, at the same
time, like, I've been prettysuccessful the last couple of years with this
bigfoot thing, gathering all sorts ofinteresting evidence and information. But a walk

(55:51):
on a road during the day whereone out of five times, one out
of eight times you go you findsomething cool that's not sexy, that's just
time spent in the word, andthe media just doesn't care. But they
sure like when some jackass dresses upin a monkey suit and waves at a
train, right. But again,even in those elements, there's something that's
a good takeaway. Like I wasjust like everybody, I kind of bought

(56:13):
into that, and I was like, that's cool footage. But what I
found even more compelling about it ishere you've got something that people could say,
there's no way a bigfoot could bethere one second and gone the next.
From that footage, when that guycrouches down into kind of the fetal
position, he just becomes part ofthe bushes. If you weren't paying attention,
you wouldn't have even noticed that therewas a guy out there dressed in

(56:36):
a gorilla suit. So if that'spossible, why couldn't an actual creature that's
used to these areas and adaptable haveevolved in a way that they could be
standing right there and never notice becauseof the way that they hide themselves and
blend into their surroundings. Yeah,that suit is actually commercially available, and

(56:57):
it's pretty yellow. It's kind ofa golden yellow brown color. And I
know that that Colorado train footage thingthat we're talking about, that's like the
dead grass and stuff that it was, that's kind of a similar color.
A Sasquatches for the most part,are darker in color, you know,
not not always, but darker incolor. They are the color of the
woods, just like pretty much everyother animal that lives in the woods.
Of great interest, and certainly theyare very very good what they do,

(57:21):
and most of the time when theyare seen, the first thing they do
is stand completely still. You canwear turquoise in the woods and at two
hundred yards stand completely still and you'reprobably not going to be seen. Yeah,
that's what I think is so astoundingabout this, And I've seen some
of these beautiful documentaries that have beenmade showing the adaptability of so many different

(57:43):
wildlife species, of how easily theycan blend in and how their bodies have
learned to fool nature itself. Right, There's a snake whose tongue looks like
a bug flying around, so whena bird comes down to get it,
the snake and get the bird,right, that shows the adaptability and just

(58:04):
how brilliant nature is. So ifa snake can make itself look like a
bug for you know, something toeat and on, all of these other
animals have got these ways of justadapting. The cuddlefish that becomes trans translucent
octopus that can change multiple colors andkind of fade into any kind of obscure

(58:28):
background. That's really remarkable. Youknow. I know it's a big foot
show, but I gotta ask you. You said you've experienced demons in person.
I'm very cautious with using that.I have been in a few instances
where I believe that the person I'mdealing with may be possessed or at least

(58:49):
dealing with an oppression of something moremalevolent because of the abilities and things that
are going on around that person,and it has been very frightening. I
can't say that, you know,like I go and I see Bobo and
cliffs standing there. I've never hadthat experience where I just go and there's
a demon. But I've been inthat situation twice and it has been very

(59:12):
disarming. Nothing like it ever whenI've been to you know, actual hauntings.
I think it is so few andfar between true demonic possession or demonic
realm existing in some of these locations. I just think a lot of it
is people's perceptions or fear levels.Like you guys have no problem tramping around
in the woods even though there's bearand coyote and wildcats and mountain lions out

(59:36):
there. You're out there protecting yourself, but you're still putting yourself in harm's
way. I wouldn't do that right. That to me sounds crazy. I'm
more afraid of being eaten by somethingthat we know exists in my search to
find something we're kind of sure exists. So to me, that's a different
deal. But like with the paranormal, I know ghosts exist, I don't

(59:59):
I can't tell you what they are, but I don't run into the demonic
realm that often that is such avery limited slice of the pie. And
I've talked to people that have beenterrified, and I'll tell your audience this
is one of my favorite stories.This woman reached out to me. She
goes, I had this paranormal teamcome in. They were here fifteen minutes
and left and they shared the EVPwith me, and they told me on

(01:00:22):
their way out, we have ademon and that they're not capable of dealing
with this. And I said,well, what was the EVP the electronic
voice phenomenon recording, and she playedit for me and you hear them talking
in the background. They're like,yeah, we're going to shut up our
equipment. And then you hear whichsounds like somebody's stomach making a noise,
and that was it. Maybe thatwas haunted by a frog, right that

(01:00:45):
was the demonic growl? And shegoes yeah, And I said, well,
what brought them to your house?She goes, well, I have
this wall with all my collector's plateson it, and right in the middle
was my great grandmother's plate. AndI was sitting here in the day and
it flew off the wall and broke. I said, okay, did it
make like a pentagram pattern on thefloor. No, did it make like

(01:01:07):
a six sixty six with the brokenshards? No? Did the shards jump
in the air and try to impaleyou against the wall? No, that's
stupid. And I said, so, why do you believe it was a
demon? Well, it was mygreat grandmother's plate. And I said,
so do you think today, justgo with me on this, do you
think that during roll call in Helltoday, as Lucifer's before his army,

(01:01:29):
he says, all right, youbobo, go out and start a war
in the Middle East. Cliff,I want you to go raise oil prices,
and Dave go break great grandma's plate. And she laughed, and I
said, do you realize the absurdityof that? Do you think that?
Is that like Satan's kind of offnephew, and that's the only job you
can trust him with. And wetalked about it, and I said,
just out of curiosity, where didyour great grandmother get it? She goes,

(01:01:51):
she got it from her mother inlaw when they got married. And
I said, oh, what wastheir relationship? Like? Oh, they
hated each other. I said,so, could it be that great grandma
came to you and saw that playedup there and knock it off the wall
once and for all to be donewith it. And she laughs, she
goes, That's exactly what my greatgrandmother would have been. Like. I
got to ask you. You said, did the pieces come flying? Have

(01:02:13):
you talked to people that have hadthat happen, like stuff break and then
fly out them and stuff like that. Yeah, I've had people make some
pretty remarkable claims, and I havenot seen that myself where things have leapt
up and flown. I've seen thingsmove slowly from one room to another,
or I've been there and listen,guys, I'm a skeptical believer. I've
had experiences my whole life. ButI questioned them constantly. Do you believe

(01:02:36):
any of the people that told youthe stories those stories like that? Yeah?
Yeah, Again, it's hard notto because it's their story and I
wasn't there, and I don't wantto be cruel to them if this is
something that happened. But on theHoleser Files, I got knocked on my
tail two or three times by anunseen force. And had you asked me

(01:02:57):
a day before I filmed that firstepisode, if I believe that was possible,
I would have told you there's noway on God's green Earth that's possible.
That shtick, that's Hollywood nonsense.And when I got knocked on my
ass in the Holser Files first episodeat Whaleyhouse, you guys have been around
camera guys in dark right, They'retrying to get around you to get a
good shot, and they're tripping overlogs or whatever. I just assumed that

(01:03:22):
one of the camera guys had comearound behind me in this pitch black room
and tripped on the carpet and fellinto me. Because it was that heavy.
It felt like something hit me,like it was falling into me.
And when you watch the episode andI turn around, my brain just can't
figure out what I'm not seeing.There should have been something there. I

(01:03:43):
got hit hard and I can't wrapmy head around it. Now. Do
I believe it was a demon?No? Do I think it was a
pissed off ghost. Yes? DoI understand why it was so pissed off?
Yeah? I do believe I knowwhy it was. You know,
a spirit, a Mexican spirit thathad been and kind of a hero to
his own people, and he wascoming back into San Diego with his group

(01:04:04):
to try to take back the landthat had been stolen from them, and
how were they treated. They werehung or forced to dig their own graves
and then stand in front of thegrave while they were shot to death.
So I think that we uncover thestory of this ghost and why it's there,
and give it a voice again andhelp people have a name to connect

(01:04:25):
to the history. And sometimes itstops, it stops being that way it
could have been. I could havejumped to the conclusion of demon very easily,
and I was so lucky to havea great production team that never once
asked us to say anything was ademon. They would ask, is there
any chance that's demonic? And thenwe would debate it on camera, and
then when we would calm down andcooler heads would prevail, we'd often all

(01:04:47):
right, let's not assume it's ademon. Let's assume it's this ghost,
and what can we do to helpit? What's the next layer of this
story? What do we have todo to help out? And so that's
I come at it from a differentpoint. I'm not walking in a place
of fear all the time. That'ssomething evil is trying to do me harm.
I understand ghosts might just be anunsettled spirit, if I elect to

(01:05:12):
stay here and watch over my familyafter I die in spirit form, I'm
a wise ass as a human.Why wouldn't I be a wise ass as
a ghost? If somebody is afraid, why wouldn't I poke them? Why
wouldn't I moment freak them out?Right? I think once you get past
that, that's when that's when youstart to have really interesting experiences. And

(01:05:32):
that's what I live for now.Dave, we're kind of coming towards the
end of our time here, butyou have a new book that's out,
and I'm wondering how much of thisstuff is in the book because the name
of the book is Theater the Mind, Tales from the Darkness, ghosts,
UFOs, aliens, monsters, andother strange stories of the supernatural. Like
where are these stories coming from thatyou wrote down in this new book of

(01:05:55):
yours? Like are we listening tosome of them right now? Or just
like this is like some sort ofautobiographical thing, or tell us about the
book because it's brand new. Itis. It's a brand new book that
I just released here in January,the end part of January, and it's
stories that people have sent to methrough the years. And shared with me
to share with my audience, anda few of the stories are my own

(01:06:17):
examples. One is a haunted dollthat was given to me, and I
share the story of why it wasgiven to me, what unnerved the family
so much that they demanded to getit out of its house, you know,
get it out of their house.And then I had it for a
number of years and had some weirdexperiences, and somebody else wanted it and
they now are the owner of thatstrange doll. So I just tell the

(01:06:40):
story and how it affected me.There's a story in there about my experience
in a haunted hospital when I wasthere having my gallbladder removed. That story
that actually featured on a TV showcalled Haunted Hospitals. They didn't tell the
right story, but you know,it's a fun story to watch unfold on
TV. And then the real story, which I think is creepier than what

(01:07:01):
they put out. And then therest of the stories are stories from people
just like you and me that havebeen in the right place at the right
time, or had an experience thatthey can't wrap their head around. Some
of the people just want to remainanonymous and do not want their story associated
with them because they are military orlaw enforcement, or even moms that just

(01:07:24):
don't want their kids who love theparanormal listening to these shows to hear what
their mom saw or dealt with.So I've shared those stories in ways that
whoever says I can involve their names, I involve their names. For the
people that ask me not to,I keep the names out of it,
and I just clear up their punctuation, their grammar, flesh out the story
a little bit, but it isexactly as they told me. And that's

(01:07:46):
what we have to offer up forpeople. And this first book has I
think fifteen or sixteen stories in it, everything from time slip phenomena to doppelgangers,
changelings, this creature, the Bloodybones Man that's terrifying the black eyed
kids, ghosts and UFOs and aliens. So it's I didn't want the book

(01:08:08):
to be pigeonholed as a ghost storybook. It is a book that tells
many different stories from many different walksof life and many different belief systems,
and it's just these are stories Idon't think should just lay in somebody's drawer,
So I'm happy to put them outthere and the people that shared the
stories with me all gave me permission. As a matter of fact, it's
nice. I go on Amazon andlook up my book Theater of the Mind

(01:08:30):
Tales from the Darkness, and I'vegot, you know, over fifty reviews,
and a few of those reviews arefrom the people whose story I represented
in the book, and they wereso pleased with the way the story came
out and me telling their story ina respectful way and keeping their you know,
sanctity. Didn't that black eyed kidsthink kind of come and go.
I really haven't heard much about thatlately. Well, you know, we

(01:08:53):
pinpoint the first story to Brian Bethelin the late nineties who had an experience
with it, and he was areporter who actually went on the record sharing
his experience, and then many peoplestarted talking about it. Once we pulled
that bandage off, other people startedrelating stories. Now again, it's a
great story that fits into the realmof urban legend. But unlike urban legend

(01:09:14):
stories, which always happened to afriend of a friend of a friend and
it was passed along, Brian Bethelwas the guy and he tells you his
story that could be wrong. Whatwasn't that original originally from Portland, Oregon.
I can't remember where Brian's from,to be honest with you. Yeah,
my wife got interested in that.My wife's and all sorts of weird
things, you know, like paranormalstuff. So she got interested in that,
and she looks it up and sheapparently, well, if it didn't

(01:09:35):
come from Portland, Oregon, youcan actually find out where something like that
happened in Portland, Oregon, likethe cross Streets where that happened. Yeah,
and he explains it in his article, so you can look up Brian
Bethel and Black Eyed Children and youknow, read his story as he tells
it. So I've had people sharetheir stories, and again, they're really

(01:09:56):
weird. They kind of fit inthat demonic and vampiric line legend and lore
of they want you to follow themsomewhere, or they need your permission to
enter your car or your home,and they get very angry when you don't
allow them in. So it's aninteresting element. And I've heard so many
different variations of these stories. Youknow, if you'd like, I'll tell
you when that happened here in Minnesota. That is one of my favorites.

(01:10:19):
It was yeah, sure, it'sa good way to end the podcast here.
Yeah, absolutely do it. Yeah, And this is not in the
book, but it's one of thestories I'll probably put in a future book
because I love it. We hadtalked about the black eyed kids. I
had this great couple. They werean elderly couple who listened to my radio
show. We were on ten o'clocktill midnight every night, Monday through Friday.

(01:10:39):
And she contacted me. She goes, you know, after you did
that black eyed kid story, I'vegot to tell you what happened to my
husband and I. And this wasa few years ago. We had all
that rain. Remember it just waslike two weeks of rain. Dave.
I'm like, yeah, she goes, well, we were diligent listeners.
We would watch the news from nineto ten, turn off the news,
go in to bed, turn onthe radio, and fall asleep listening to
your radio show. And I'm like, well, that's great. And she

(01:11:00):
goes in this one night, weturn off the TV and we can hear
what sounds like kids running around outin our front yard, playing in the
puddles and playing in the rain.And my husband went over and he looked
through the blinds and he's like,God, what's going on. Where are
these screwy kids? And she said, honey, listen, it's been raining
NonStop. The parents probably just letthe kids run around to burn off some
energy. We used to play inthe rain. Okay, they go to

(01:11:21):
bed, that's it. About threeo'clock in the morning, she wakes up
and her husband sleeps with his backto the wall. She's sleeping closer to
the door, and she wakes upand there are three children standing inside the
room. There's a girl in themiddle and two boys flanking her, and
she can see them from the lightthat's in the room. They have jet

(01:11:44):
black eyes. She says, Dave, I closed my eyes. I took
a deep breath because I'm a goodlistener. I'm a good student of the
paranormal, and we know that inthose moments that hypnagoga hypnopompic states of when
we're going into sleep or coming outof them, we can have these hallucinot
moments where dreams and reality come together. And maybe I was dreaming about children
and this is just a layer ofit. So I closed my eyes.

(01:12:08):
I took a couple of cleansing breaths. And I opened my eyes and they
were still standing there, and Istarted to reach to my husband and I
opened my mouth to scream, andthe little girl in the middle step forward,
pressing her finger to her lips.She said, sh we just want
to look at you. Oh right, she scream shakes her husband. He
gets up. They go through theentire house, turning on every light in

(01:12:30):
the entire house and that's great,husband, right, He gets up with
her to go find out what's goingon. They cuddled in bed, lights
burning in the house until morning time, and that's when they heard the sound
of kids laughter outside again, andit just unnerved and freaked them out.
But my favorite part of the story. First of all, that was a
weird, bone chilling tale, Butmy favorite part was a couple nights later

(01:12:54):
after we share that story, Igo down from our radio station into the
parking ramp and there's cop car parkedbehind my car and he goes, are
you Dave Schrader, And I'm likeyeah, with Darkness Radio, I'm like
yeah. He goes, yeah,We got to tell you, big fans
of the show. All the nightcrews on EMTs, firefighters and police love
your stuff. We don't believe it. It's insane, but it's fun to

(01:13:16):
listen to, and you know,you get great stories on there. But
the other night you told that storyabout the three black eyed kids in that
woman's room here in Minnesota, andit was about eleven forty five. You
told the story and then went tocommercial break. And you go to commercial
break, and my partner and Istart laughing about how absurd and stupid this
is. When we get a callover the radio that an elderly woman is

(01:13:40):
calling to complain that there are threechildren in her front yard at eleven forty
five at night that she doesn't knowand they won't leave. And he said,
and I looked at my partner andhe looked at me, and we
shook our head and turned the radiooff and said, screw that, we're
not going. So I love thefact that the cops were so unnerved by
the story they wouldn't even go outto investigate what was happening. That's fantastic.

(01:14:00):
That is just fantastic. And Iknow you said that story is not
in your book, but you alsocommented briefly saying this first book is blah
blah blah. And I thought tomyself dude, with a lifetime of experience
and listening to people like you have, there could be endless numbers of these
books. And if you can writehalf as well as you speak, man,
I'm going to read every single one. That's fantastic. Well I've got

(01:14:23):
I'm hoping to have the second bookout around June or July this year and
then maybe get the third volume outby Halloween. And I'd like to put
out these books and with the storiesthat people share. So if your listeners
have strange experiences with Bigfoot or choopacabra, or aliens, or ghosts or weija
boards psychic phenomena, they can emailme Dave at Paranormal sixty dot com.

(01:14:46):
That's Dave at Paranormal six zero dotcom and let me know if I can
share your story. We might reachout to you in the future a share
it on the radio show The Paranormalsixty, or it may be included an
upcomingvolume of one of the books thatwe put out. And again, my
job is not to prove or disproveany of these stories. My job as
a curator to share the stories thatpeople have had happen. And the reason

(01:15:11):
that I've taken that tack is thatthere have been some of the stories I've
heard that are easy to make youroll your eyes at, and then we've
shared them on the air, andI've received emails and phone calls from listeners
saying, Dave, I want youto know that I've had a very weird
life and I had an experience identicalto that with the exact same creature,
and I thought I was insane.Now that I know I'm not alone,

(01:15:35):
I feel so much better that somebodyelse has seen what I saw. So
I've removed all judgment and just sharethe stories as they're given to me because
I think they're fascinating, interesting looksinto the human psyche and belief system that
is fantastic. And this is thekind of stuff that you get on the
Paranormal sixty podcast as well. Yeah, we're live Mondays and Wednesdays on YouTube.

(01:16:00):
You can watch the Paranormal sixty Livewhere I'll talk to my guests and
it's a video interview. And thenthe audios released Tuesday to all platforms,
So I have a little Paranormal sixtypodcast kind of network that has five different
shows Monday. If you tune intothe audio version, you get New England
Legends with Ray Ager and Jeff Balang. Or Tuesday you get the Paranormal sixty.
Wednesday Monsters Lounge with my friends Tresaand Jenny. Thursday you get the

(01:16:26):
Paranormal sixty News and then Friday we'vegot True Hauntings, which is a show
that comes out of Australia. Thesetwo amazing ladies that kind of look at
paranormal stories, de evolve them,try to understand them and weigh in on
if they think that after what they'veread and the proof that's been presented,
is it a real haunting or not. So we wanted to make a network
where it was safe to come nomatter what your beliefs or interests are.

(01:16:48):
And there are stories for everybody.And of course your book is now out.
You can get on Amazon if youwant, but there's a better place
to get it because from I undersand Dave will sign it for you.
If you get it from a website, where is that? Yeah? If
you now for people listening around theworld, I can't ship it out.
The books are crazy. To senda book to another country, it costs
more than the book would have costto buy it. So you're better off

(01:17:10):
buying it directly from Amazon, butif you're in the United States and would
like assigned copy, just go toParanormal sixty dot com. That's Paranormal six
zero dot com and on that frontpage just scroll down you'll see the place
where you can order either a signedor an unsigned copy of the book.
As soon as I get the order, I sign them and send them out
that day, so that's available,and I hope that your listeners will come

(01:17:32):
along on my journey and enjoy whatwe have to share as well. Well.
I'm looking forward to digging into yourbook for sure. It's been a
delight to speak to you, David. Thank you so much for coming on
the podcast. I sincerely appreciate it. And when these other books hit the
shelves too, let me know loveto have you back on because you're just
a pleasure to speak to. Andguys, let me tell you this from
the bottom of my heart, thankyou for the work that you do and

(01:17:55):
for both being so accessible to yourfans and to people that have an entry
in this field, because that makesthe world a little smaller and it makes
people feel more like a part ofsomething that we can share. These experiences,
have these experiences and know that thereare people like you that are entertaining,
educational, and informative. So thankyou guys for what you're doing,

(01:18:16):
for doing this amazing show as well. All right, well, yeah,
thank you too, Dave. It'sgood talking to you again. We appreciate
you coming on. I'll hopefully talkto both of you again real soon,
yeah, hopefully. All right,folks, Well, thanks a lot for
Dave Shuder coming out and talk withus today. Hope you all on jored
as much as we did. Anduntil next week, you guys know what
to do. Keep it squatchy.Well, thanks for listening to this week's

(01:18:44):
episode of Bigfoot and Beyond. Ifyou liked what you heard, please rate
and review us on iTunes, subscribeto Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you get your
podcasts, and follow us on Facebookand Instagram at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast.
You can find us on Twitter atBigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the
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Ep. 253 - Dave Schrader Goes Beyond!

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 253 - Dave Schrader Goes Beyond!