Ep. 290 - Bonobos & Barred Owl Woes with Clobo!

Cliff Barackman, James "Bobo" Fay, and Matt Pruitt catch up and dig into the headlines! Topics include:

Bonobo Aggression: https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/bonobos-the-hippy-apes-may-not-be-as-peaceful-as-once-thought/

Whales and AI: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240709-the-sperm-whale-phonetic-alphabet-revealed-by-ai

Barred Owl Culling: https://www.livescience.com/animals/birds/nearly-half-a-million-invasive-owls-including-their-hybrid-offspring-to-be-killed-by-us

Apes Don't Ask Questions: https://medium.com/@LazySith/why-apes-dont-ask-cce86e803a53

Sign up for our weekly bonus podcast "Beyond Bigfoot & Beyond" and ad-free episodes here: https://www.patreon.com/bigfootandbeyondpodcast

Get official "Bigfoot & Beyond with Cliff & Bobo" merchandise here: https://sasquatchprints.com/bigfoot-and-beyond-merch/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bulbo.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
These guys are your favorites, so like to subscribe and
read it up, stay.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
Shoot and.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Rang on listening, Oh watching them always keep its watching.
And now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James booble Fay.

Speaker 4 (00:31):
What happened Bob tell us man?

Speaker 5 (00:33):
Uh, well, we were collecting wood and uh with being
part of this last year like going up to bluff
and hutting down like the drones. We were storing it
all at his house because he's got like twenty acres
and he's up in the sun more and it tries better.
It doesn't try to get here on the coast. It
just stays pretty wet. So we were stacking all that there.

(00:56):
We had different piles like from different trips and stuff.
And then so I went up there and processed it
one day, like you know, like kind of just sput
every thing like separated and like what's something to be
split and just all that kind of like just organize
it so we could split it up because because this
is his truck and he drove and all that. So
I was like, okay, you get more and like you know,

(01:17):
like sixty forty something like that sixty five thirty five split.
And so I went up there and I was like
like a month ago before it started rent and I
was like, here, there's a big storm coming to you
rain like I got tarks, we got I got tarps
up there. I'm like, he's always so busy. I was like,
I'll just come up and do it. He's like, my
wife's mad at me right now, like I don't come

(01:37):
here right now. And I'm like, dude, it's got to
get cover. He's like, I promise I'll cover, like a
all right. I just I was thinking you wouldn't, Like
I didn't sure, just dump like I don't know how
many ran like seven inches or something so far, and
it just all got rehydrated, like it's like soaking wet now.
So I got I'm doing all this wet wood again.
This is the seventh year and ago I've had wet

(01:58):
wood going into the wind her.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, yeah, and in your house, I mean, I haven't
been there since Karita moved in. Honestly, it's been years
since i've been there. But I don't know what she
could have done about the air leaking through. You know,
I'm sure it's a lot nicer, and it's vacuumed occasionally,
and you know it's clean and stuff like that, which,
you know, a new addition, so to speak. But what
can she do about the structure of the house. You
need heat because you're right on the beach and it's

(02:23):
cold and the wind blows through.

Speaker 5 (02:26):
Yeah, it's one hundred and twenty year old house and
it's got We dug into the walls and we found
like old newspaper and redwood shavings, and it was like
they probably filled it up when't happened, but it all
sailed down into like a foot thick pile of mults
at the in the bottoms, all on the walls, so
like inside the walls, she in the drywall on the

(02:47):
outside flanking and so it's just like these crazy fire traps,
you know.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, I was gonna say, you're using kindling to insulate
your house.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, I didn't realize that you lived there before Corea
moved in. So that's that's funny where you're like, oh.

Speaker 5 (03:02):
Sweet, o't baby. Yeah, it was cool, It's just it
was dope.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
I've never seen it. I've never seen pictures or actually,
is that where you were in that maligned Hulu documentary.

Speaker 5 (03:14):
Oh yeah, that was my living room.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah it looked cool.

Speaker 5 (03:18):
That's because I was my stuff. The whole place used
to be cool.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Dude, I've been there a lot. Man, it wasn't always cool.
They had good decorations, like the Eric Cartman stuffed animal
that was entirely black from mold, like that kind of decoration.

Speaker 5 (03:34):
Oh sentimental, I know it was.

Speaker 4 (03:37):
It was, but that's just one of several things. Man,
that was pretty gross. That was pretty gross. Man.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's been in various stages throughout the years, and sometimes,
you know, it was very nice. I mean, don't get
me wrong, very very well taken care of, and really
cool decorations and that kind of stuff. And then other
times it was a labyrinth of piled up stuff you
had to navigate to get to the kitchen, you know.

Speaker 5 (03:59):
Yeah, uh, but it was always it wasn't like gross
stuff like moldy plates or stuff like that, or I
always cleaned the kitchen in the bathroom and everything. I
didn't mind like stuff junk being everywhere, like just as
long as it wasn't like, you know, gonna cause germs
and stuff. So I'm watching the curtains right now, just
blowing it looks like their goat. Like the white curtains
are like moving something of the wind blew one down

(04:22):
like a little while ago. There's so much air coming through,
like the broken window. Like it's so offset, like there's
big gaps and stuff, and it's pretty cold.

Speaker 4 (04:32):
Bed is pretty cold.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Pretty cold, yeah, and maybe spooky, you know, putting the
beyond in the big Foot and beyond here. Yeah, I
seem to remember a treadmill. Yeah, you said, didn't you
have a treadmill in your living room at one point?

Speaker 5 (04:45):
Well, that was my inverter, my back stretcher thing.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Okay, I remember sleeping on the ground out there in
your living room one time. I think Flippy and Brianna
were over and stuff.

Speaker 5 (04:55):
And then oh yeah the Bobcat movie. Was that what
it was?

Speaker 4 (04:59):
Okay?

Speaker 5 (05:00):
Yeah, it was a Willkirk premiere.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, yeah, I remember having to sleep put my head
up on something like that. I think I thought it
was a treadmill, but maybe I'm not remembering correctly, you know,
going to sleep on that because there was a lot
of floor space left, right, but enough for me to
lay down on. She's all I really need.

Speaker 5 (05:16):
Yeah, I had a lot of stuff around.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
Oh man, so something cool happened in the shop this week.

Speaker 5 (05:21):
What's that?

Speaker 4 (05:23):
A woman? An older woman.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
I mean, she was probably in her eighties, I'm guessing,
I'm not really sure, and her three daughters, who were
probably in their fifties and sixties or so. I'd lean
more towards sixties, but hopefully they're not listening, so I
don't know, especially if they're fifties, you know. But anyway,
she came in and her name was Ellery, and she

(05:46):
was married to a dude named Kin. Back in the day,
Ken and Ellery lived on a property outside of Saliar
that was owned by Jerry Crewe.

Speaker 5 (05:55):
No way.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, And then everybody there, all like the woman and
her daughters, all knew Jerry crew They all knew him,
and because they'd lived on the same property, and it
just had great things to say about him, about what
a great guy was and how honorable he was. And
I went to the same church. So they came into
the museum and I sat down and had a long

(06:17):
conversation with them, and they kind of reminisced. They remember
they kept referring to John Crewe, who's a friend of mine.
John is the oldest son of Jerry Crew. I have
a very long, about forty five minutes interview with John
Crewe that I videotape back in the day. They've never
really Oh, it's super cool. But they kept referring to
him as Hiram for some reason. I guess Hiram I

(06:39):
believe is his first name. In John might be his
middle names what I gathered, but I've always own him
as John, of course, and and John, and of course
John was just a little boy at the time, you know.
And I believe that they knew Jerry in the early
early early sixties.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
I believe.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
I don't think it was fifty eight like when the
cast was taken in all that Jazz. I think it
was the early six and they'd never met Jerry's first wife.
And if people who don't know Jerry's first wife, and
I'm afraid I don't know her name, died tragically in
a house fire out in that general area, unfortunately, So
John and his sister were orphaned at that time. And

(07:18):
then Jerry eventually remarried and then had a few more kids.
And that's where Wade came from. We met Jerry, we
met John, and Wade. John is a product of the
first marriage and his mother was killed, and then Wade
is a product of the second marriage. And I've never
met the sisters, so I don't know their names unfortunately either.
But she came in and had a lot of great

(07:39):
things to say. I recorded the interview, of course, as
I do for most historical historic interviews if they allowed me. Otherwise,
I just take copious notes. She brought in a couple
of artifacts as well. She brought in a photograph of
Jerry and his second wife with the two kids, and Jerry,
of course, is beaming and they're all super happy, and
he has got a super like slick tie and like

(08:00):
a button down shirt, short sleeved shirt on. She's got
this cool like fifties early sixties dress on. Really really,
I just love the style from that time, by the way,
I just absolutely love it. It's so sharp, you know,
with the thin ties, it's kind of like a you know,
FBI looking. I like that look a lot. I'm not
sure I could pull it off. I'm not really thin
enough for that, but it just looks so sharp, you know.

(08:21):
And then she brought in another artifact which I'd never
seen before, and it was super super cool. She brought
in an original program from Jerry Crew's funeral. Yeah, and
I've never seen such a thing, and it was cool.
And the funeral was held on December sixth, nineteen ninety
three in Gladstone, organ because Jerry Crew had moved up

(08:44):
to the area by then. He was working I think
for Boeing or something like that. He is an airline
mechanic for Boeing I believe, I guess based on his
heavy machinery skills at the time. And of course honorary
pallbearers at the funeral, it lists all this sort of stuff.
You have John Crewe, h John Crewe and so I
guess that's Hiram John Crwe. You have John M.

Speaker 5 (09:03):
Crewe.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
I'm not exactly sure who that is, Wade Crue the
other son, and Mark and Jack OLiS Schlager I believe,
and Ken Rose. And Ken Rose is the notable mention
here because that's this woman's husband. So they were obviously
very close to the Crewe family. And the fact that
they came in and brought these things to share with us,

(09:24):
and they didn't donate the pictures and the program and stuff,
but they let me scan them for the archives, so
we have a record of them now. They just little
artifacts like that just had never seen before, and what
a lovely visit with the family and two as well.
You know, so it's kind of a neat thing that
happened at the shop this past week. I wanted to
share with you because I thought you'd get a kick
out of that.

Speaker 5 (09:45):
Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
It's one of the neat things about the shop in
generals that you just never know who's going to pop by,
people that you never even.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
Thought of existing.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
Oh, this is also pretty neat, right, So I kind
of was throwing names at her, like did you ever
meet John Green?

Speaker 4 (09:56):
And she goes, I don't know who that.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Is, you know, and you know, Renee's like this Henre,
you know, dude with an accent from Europe.

Speaker 4 (10:01):
No, I don't know who that is. You know that
kind of stuff. I said, Well, Al Hodgson, Oh yeah,
we knew Al.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Of course we knew Al. Everybody knew Al because they
were they lived in Sally of course, so they were
in Willow Creek all the time. So pretty small town.
Everybody knows Al Hodgson. But she's She also mentioned going
over to Betty Allen's house. Oh, no kidding, Betty Allen.
It says, Oh, yeah, she was a really no nonsense
sort of lady in this journal, and she was telling

(10:26):
me about Betty Allen, And of course I know who
Betty Allen is. I think most connoisseurs of Bigfoot history
probably know who Betty Allen is, but she But for
those people who are just casual fans, officionados, enthusiasts of
the Bigfoot subject, like probably probably the majority of our listeners,
I'm guessing Betty Allen was one of the early early

(10:48):
journalists investigating it. I'm not sure I would call her
a researcher per se, but she wrote for the Humboldt
Times newspaper and she was kind of collecting stories at
the time.

Speaker 4 (10:58):
She's one of the first people to write about the
Jerry Crew stuff.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
In fact, I believe John Crewe kind of mentioned that maybe, uh,
you know, Jerry and Betty, in between marriages, maybe like
had a thing for each other.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
I mean, they're very moral people.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Don't think they had a fling necessarily, but I think
they had a liking for one another, like one.

Speaker 5 (11:14):
Of those things. That's what it sounded like.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we had a looking at Jerry and
his thin tie and button down, Like who wouldn't, right.

Speaker 5 (11:22):
He's a stud. Dude. That guy was ripped. Like I
seen a picture of one of the family had like
of him and his T shirt like like split in
wood or something that was like, dude was jacked.

Speaker 4 (11:33):
Oh yeah, I mean he was a logger and a roadbuilder, right.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
I mean those those folks are generally that that you
know jacked.

Speaker 5 (11:38):
As you say, oh, speaking of of a celebrities that
were known back when I worked with a woman who
grew up with Moneymaker and the Moneymaker family.

Speaker 4 (11:49):
Really wasn't Heidi flies was it?

Speaker 5 (11:51):
No? No, no, but I did when she said she goes,
I agree with that digger. They all said. My face
just was like my eyes popped open, my mouth went open.
I was just like, oh, I was like, it's just
like speechless for like a second. I just go like
if you like started talking about like that is when
I first started started there, and they're like, you know
a lot of people are interested in the show and

(12:13):
that kind of stuff. And I was just like, now
this guy, I'm like I because most of them didn't
know what like I would know what it was or
who was who or anything. And I was like like,
this guy you have to know him, but to meet
someone that knew him back when is like a treat.
And so I was like, what's like she goes? Well,
I didn't know him. I knew him like you know,
And I say, she goes. We used to ride to like,

(12:35):
uh some school like or after school functioned like there
in some carpool. I'm not sure what it all was,
but she used to be and she was really good
friends with Matt's sister. And uh, I said, what was like?
She goes? He was very very smart, and he talked
incessantly and would explain everything anything that popped up. He

(12:55):
would explain to everyone like like he was like a teacher,
you know, like a professor, even as a young kid.

Speaker 4 (13:01):
That's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Well, anyway, should we get on at the episode here?
This is a topical episode, you know, we do this
every month or two or something where Bobo and I
and Matt of course, whenever we're reading through the news,
because we're all rather well read people. When we're reading
through the news and some news item comes up or
some research paper comes up and we think that it
has something to do with sasquatches in some sort of way.

(13:23):
Usually not directly very often tangentially, we kind of email
that email those particular links to Matt Pruit and every
few months or something like that we get together and
kind of talk about some of these things.

Speaker 4 (13:34):
So it's one of.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Your favorite Globo episodes where we all kind of get together.
And now, of course Clobo is our power couple named
Bobo and I, but we don't have a Matt prud
in there. Somehow, I don't know how we're going to
get a.

Speaker 4 (13:44):
Matt Globo pru It Globo Pruit. Yeah, I think we
could do better than that one.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
You guys are like family. You'll take my surname of course.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
All right, well, let's just take the articles in order.
Here is what we have them on the screen. So
the first article it comes from manga bay dot com,
but it was again all over the news. I mean,
these news items are kind of like that, they get
regurgitated by their news outlets from various forms. This one
is about Bonobo's, of course, one of the great ape

(14:20):
species that we have still living. There aren't very many left,
and the title of this article is called Bonobos. The
quote unquote, hippie apes may not be as peaceful as
once thought.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, this was a Bobo submission because he had read
this article. When we were talking about the fact that
bonobos do engage in some conflict, but usually that doesn't
result in death as opposed to chimpanzees, Bobo had mentioned
that he had seen an article saying like, well, you know,
just because they don't resort to killing each other doesn't
mean they're as peaceful as they seem to be. So
this was a Bobo submission.

Speaker 5 (14:54):
Yeah, the crazy parts are three times more incidents of violence.
They just don't es slate to that top tier of
you know, chimp aside.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Chimp acide, right, good word? Actually, yeah, and of course
benobos are people probably know this, but just in case,
I mean, I don't know how much other people know
about the great apes in general. Probably not very much
because a lot of people throw like, you know, sasquatches
aren't dumb apes.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
There are no dumb apes. Actually, it turns.

Speaker 5 (15:21):
Out Charles Heston disagrees.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
Well, he didn't say dumb. He said dirty filthy, didn't
he dirty filthy?

Speaker 1 (15:28):
I was gonna say, I know a few, but nobody's perfect.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, but you you don't know any dumb orangutans.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
That's true, that's true. Mostly those homosapiens.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bobo will be right back after these messages. But anyway,
benobos are known as like hippie apes because they have
a proclivity for having sex basically to solve problem, you know,

(16:00):
like free love sort of stuff, and they smell like crap,
and they smell like crap or pat surely yeah, fine
line really yeah. But and of course for long they
have a reputation as being non violent. But you know,
that's apparently not as true as people would like to believe,
essentially because of the aggressive acts among benobos, particularly amongst themselves,

(16:24):
you know, their own tribes, so to speak. But you know,
the thing about this article that really struck me, it's like, okay,
so the bnobos are just like every other wild animal
that they solve things through force sometimes.

Speaker 4 (16:36):
Okay, that's not that surprising honestly to me. But what
I think it.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Does show is that there's like this nuance to studying
animal behavior that I think that a lot of humans overlook.
Perhaps maybe that's the right way to do it. You know,
humans like things to be packaged very simply black and white.
This is the way it is is and almost every subject,

(17:02):
and certainly animal behavior would be far far more nuanced
than that that circumstances dictate, and things are not aren't
always this, or aren't always any such way.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
You know.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah, I thought that was a very interesting insight because yea,
it is covering a paper that I'm not certain if
it's behind it paywall or not, but it was. The
paper was published in Current Biology, so I haven't seen
the entire paper, but reading this overview, for sure, I
know it's questioning a lot of things like the you
know that the self domestication hypothesis, which seems to apply

(17:34):
to human beings, and so they've taken the lessons that
we've inferred from human evolution and applied it to the
quote unquote hippiap but then realizing like, oh, that might
not be at all applicable. So it's it's definitely an
interesting read and insightful because yeah, until Bobo had mentioned
this in our last Bonobo discussion, trying to say Bobo

(17:55):
and Bonobo in the same sentence is kind of tricky.
Maybe I'm the domape but yeah, I was. I was
not aware that there was this level of aggression, et cetera.
So it's definitely interesting.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
You know, I think if you crossed Bobo with a chimpanzee,
you would get a bonobo.

Speaker 5 (18:12):
Yeah. I like that.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
The number of people that call Bobo bono in our
comments because the phone auto corrects Bobo to Bono, like
the guy from you two. So it always kind of
giggle when people are like, I love Bono, He's my favorite.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
I never think of it as I never think of
it as as Bono from you two. I think of
it as sunny Bono.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
Yeah, which would you prefer?

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Bobo?

Speaker 5 (18:37):
Bvanovo?

Speaker 4 (18:38):
Banovo? Very good?

Speaker 2 (18:42):
But you know, so as all articles on apes generally,
and they talk about a conservation efforts of course, because
all ape species are endangered at this point. But I
was kind of shocked to find that fifteen thousand bonobos
are left. That's all there is, fifteen thousand, not that many.

(19:03):
That's probably you know, twice as less than twice as
many as sasquatches, you know, in.

Speaker 4 (19:09):
The world, in the world.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
But you know, speaking of sasquatches, getting back to that,
don't we see the same behavior in sasquatches.

Speaker 5 (19:17):
We don't know how much they fight amongst themselves.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
No, but we can kind of take some extrapolate some
things perhaps on how much how many people are killed
every year by sasquatches and what and other kind of
behaviors they exhibit towards.

Speaker 5 (19:32):
Us, Right, that's true.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
I know that it's not within the species, of course,
but the fact that they throw rocks and try to
scare us, or you know, pound on walls or beat
the beat their chests, or break trees, or pound their
feet against the ground, that kind of stuff, versus actually
coming up and just snapping our spine, which every single
one of them easily could do. I think that there's
there's some reflective behavior there, you know, that kind of

(19:55):
reflects what we're actually looking at.

Speaker 5 (19:57):
I agree, yeah, yeah, it shows more thought process for sure.
If they know, like if we if we attack them,
it's it's not it's not just going to work out.
I think they know they bluff bluff bluff and don't
cause an injury or something, that they're they're gonna they're
gonna get their point across, and they usually get the
way they usually get they want. The person leaves and
then they don't have a bunch of guys with flashing

(20:20):
lights on their horseless carriages coming up, their bang.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Sticks, their bows, like, what are you talking about? I'd
settle in, I think, and I know what you're talking
about now, So.

Speaker 5 (20:28):
What do you think?

Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think a lot of it probably has to do
with energy efficiency and the fact that you know, they
don't have to approach very closely. They can make intimidating
noises from a distance and still from behind cover with
some security and separation, and so they've probably never had
to physically attack a person, you know, I'm certain you
know it's probably happened. There's no way that you know,

(20:50):
most animals have attacked people across all species where humans
and animals interacts. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you
would just think that, you know, for apes that war,
let's say, among each other, like the chimpanzees, do you
know they're fighting over a resource, whether that resources females
or food resource that's within a territory, et cetera. Sasquatches

(21:12):
wouldn't be battling us for territory in that same regard.
It's not like they're running us out of our own
houses or something, and they wouldn't do that by killing.
And so it probably is much more efficient to just
make a few sounds and have the humans leave and
in many cases never ever return, than it would be
to constantly, you know, expose themselves to the risk of

(21:32):
physical harm by actually making physical contact with a person.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
There was something in this study as well that tied
the survival strategies is what they refer to it as
of bonobo's.

Speaker 4 (21:46):
To successful mating.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Essentially, you know, they commented that chimpanzees they kind of
like gang up on other animals, you know, they hunt
in troops. They build alliances with other chimps so they
can attack in mobs essentially, is what they They didn't
say that, but that's essentially what they're doing. They get
a bunch of friends together and then they have a
gang fight. You know, it's like the sweathogs versus the

(22:09):
so and so, Right, But they found with bonobos it's
more individual and the individual bonobos that are perhaps a
little bit more aggressive tend to build stronger bonds with
other individual females, and they think that that has something
to do with their success in mating as opposed to
like a group survival thing. And they even suggested that

(22:34):
this individual relationship that these aggressive bnobos build might be
something akin to, you know, friendships in human society, which
you know makes sense because you know, Melissa and I
were friends long before we were married. You know, we're
actually not that long before were but still, you know
what I'm saying, I think there's some sort of I

(22:54):
guess parallel in human society as well, and probably in sasquatches,
because now, again based on the the evidence that I
have personally observed in the woods, personally observed, not what
other people are telling me, not speculations, but what I've
personally seen, there seems to be a like where I
have found female, presumably female footprints the fourteen inches, and

(23:18):
I BaseT on the fact that we're also finding smaller
individual footprints with it. In one case it's the twelve
in another case it's an eight inch footprint. So I'm
assuming those fourteen's there's one male in the area. For
each of these, I had a seventeen inch foot and
a fifteen inch foot and in another area, I'm assuming
that those are males. They may not be, but I'm

(23:38):
assuming that those are males. At this point, there's not
like a troop of males running around here, so maybe
maybe that individual thing applies here as well. And as
far as being the biggest, baddest of them all, maybe,
I mean in one area that we work, it's a
lot closer to civilization than the other. And that male,

(23:59):
if it is a male, has a foot about fifteen
and a half inches long. But the other area, which
is much further from where anybody, any humans would live,
and also has some of the best habitat you could
ask for. That's the seventeen inch individual and so and
certainly the seventeen inch foot would be associated with a

(24:19):
very large sasquatch, like a really big sasquatch, and which
would be the most the strongest, biggest, baddest guy around.
Of course, now more aggressive. We don't know without seeing behavior,
of course, but you can certainly it certainly suggests that
at least to.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
Me at least, yeah, that would be much more analogous
to you know, other mammals like to think of apes
like orangutans, are the same way. And the males have
a very large territory that encompasses multiple females whose territories
or home ranges are significantly smaller. But the same is
true of bears and of tigers, and a host of
other animals, mountain lions, on and on and on. You know,
I wish I could read the full paper about the

(24:56):
bonobos to see how they compare to chimpanzees, because they are,
you obviously, so closely related, but markedly different in ways
that this paper outlines. But in the case of chimpanzees,
the females are not discriminate maters. They'll basically mate totally
indiscriminately with any male, and so all the competition happens
between the males, and then whatever dominant male wins gets

(25:18):
the mating rights, and so there's that kind of competition
that happens, and very often whatever male rises to the
upper echelon of the troop usually there's a tremendous amount
of reciprocity involved. Friends to Wall's work covers this fairly
extensively in that, at least within chimpanzee troops, like the
most aggressive males usually don't have a very long tenure

(25:40):
at the top because they'll be displaced by a more
cooperative band, even if they're subordinate smaller males, but they're
working cooperatively and they have reciprocal behaviors. Whereas this sounds
like to your point, you know, the males are much
more individualized that they're not necessarily forming those same kind
of coalitions with other males.

Speaker 4 (25:59):
Right right, coalitions.

Speaker 5 (26:02):
I watched that chimp empire that was around watching all
that stuff.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
I still haven't seen it. You haven't, No, I haven't seen.

Speaker 5 (26:08):
It, dude. It's great, you got to watch it.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
I might try to find see if I can get
that original paper from Current Biology and dig into that
and read the full details.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Well, certainly somebody who listens to this podcast probably has
access to that kind of thing, some institution or something.

Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
The frustrating thing, you know, there's a few sources. Sometimes
you can find things on Google, scholar or Jstore, etc.
Academia dot edu. But at least with Academia dot edu,
they bombard you with emails and they're just so ridiculous.
And then you know, sometimes like I guess there's more
than one like Matt Pruit. I might even just be

(26:46):
signed up as like improuit, and so I get constant
emails saying like are you the impruit that wrote and
it's some wild paper, you know, by some other person,
And there's no way to unsubscribe from those. So I've
stuck using academia dot edu because their their email notifications
are so obnoxious.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
You know, there is a website that'll tell you how
many other people in the country have your name.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
There's another guitar player here in town named Matt Pruitt,
and I've occasionally gotten emails from people like asking about
how to play this song or that song of his,
or venues that he's played in town have tagged me
in social media Tonight Live and so I always wonder like,
does this guitar player guy get weird bigfoot emails from people?

Speaker 4 (27:30):
I hope so. I hope so too.

Speaker 5 (27:34):
So there's like four hundred James Faves in the US
way gather around.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
It's Bobo story, dude. He's going to see some things
that will blow my classic. He's flying, He's gone a kid.
Yill me hire once again. It's Bubo story.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Any description of felonious or criminal activity is being told
here strictly for entertainment purposes, and is in no way
admission of guilt or even true.

Speaker 5 (28:06):
For that matter, should ever tell you about when I
used to I freaking got so much trouble all the time.
This dude had the same birthday as me, but he
was like eight years older than me or twelve years
older mean or something like we had the same like
no middle initial, James Fay. We were both like on
the same size. This dude was like had like had
a tempted murder like on a cop charge. He was

(28:27):
like a X con like had a rap sheet like
as long as your arm, like gnarly violent felonies and stuff,
and dude, I had to lay on the street in
my belly so many times like dude, I'm not that guy,
because I know exactly what they were doing. They'd be
like they'd act like, you know, they'd do that high
security threat, you know, like a approach like stop and
approach like get out, stick your hands out the windows,

(28:49):
get on the ground. I'd be like, I'm not that dude.
I think he got a hold of my because I
lost a passport one time when I was out at
the bars and I was like just turned twenty one
or around there, and I ended up having to go
into like file paperwork at the FED office down in
LA because my passport was being used in crimes. And

(29:10):
I guess this guy got like somehow he got I
don't know, I don't know I think I've actually got
my passport, but he got my info. I started using
my like he was totals over. He started using my
birth year instead of his own, and so I got
somehow got I got mixed up with this guy, and
for like ten years, it caused me a bunch of problems.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
I wonder how much, how how many problems you caused
that other guy?

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Think of the same thing.

Speaker 5 (29:37):
Yeah, ile this kid. I let this guy the razor.
I let him have my when I turned twenty, I
was twenty one whatever, and he was he's only like
seventeen or eighteen, and heed he needed a fake ideed.
He kind of looked like me. He was the same
height and weight and stuff. And I let him. I
let him have my old ID, and he shoul he

(30:00):
got there. I got busted for drinking beers on the beach,
and he showed it to the cops and he got
cuffed and taken away. His parents had to pay off
his bail to get him out, which was all my tickets,
unpaid tickets. So he got screwed. He got busted for
fake ID and then to get out. Well, he didn't
get busted right then, because they just thought he was me,
and then he called his parents. His parents came to

(30:21):
build them out that the bail was all my tickets
getting paid off.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Wow, I got a couple of impromptu Bobo story times
going here today. Yeah, stay tuned for more Bigfoot and
Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll be right back after
these messages. Well, you want to hop onto the next
article here. I think this was a pretty cool one.

(30:50):
This next one is really neat.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
I think it has massive implications, Oh for sure.

Speaker 5 (30:55):
Yeah, those guys are doing that project up in Washington
State and New York they're collaborating on. I know they're
writing a AI program specifically for they're using the stuff
from chimpanzees and whales and all that kind of like
they're trying to use that all the information I've got

(31:15):
about about getting the females and all that stuff out
of the whale language, are applying that for a sasquatch
translation program.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
But I think what you could do is something like this,
because this particular article is about the discovery of a
phonetic alphabet within sperm whales, essentially using AI to analyze
I think they had like almost nine thousand what they
call codas click sequences from the Eastern Caribbean sperm whale

(31:45):
and using AI and like advanced machine learning, et cetera,
they're trying to derive this language. But what you could do,
and what I've heard people talk about is the endpoint
of these things is that if you can derive the
language of whales or dolphins, or crows or canids, on
and on and on, once you have enough of those
analyzed and somehow interpretable, then you can extract the things

(32:09):
that are common across all of those languages, from which
you could derive like a global animal language to some
degree that there would be, you know, things that are
globally common across multiple species, from which you might be
able to have at least some kind of very limited
but almost like proto communication with any living thing on

(32:30):
the planet that can transmit or receive communication via sound,
just for like AI.

Speaker 5 (32:36):
I mean, how efficient the AI is and how it
opens things up. I thought there was twenty one code
of types a couple of years ago. Now that they
realized that those nine thousand recordings they studied, they've identified
one hundred and fifty six to sink codas.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
It's amazing that.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
Is and what do they define as a coda?

Speaker 1 (32:53):
Click sequences?

Speaker 4 (32:54):
Click sequences.

Speaker 5 (32:55):
That's what a coda is, yep, A sperm wheal phonetic.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Alphabet right right, Okay, so it's the clicking and whatnot.
And instead of actually vocalizing per se, and I did
when I was reading through this. What struck me is
that they're describing these these what do you say codas
with musical terminology. You know, they were identified with rhythm,

(33:21):
which is of course how they come out like in time.
You know, Tempo is how fast they come out roboto,
which is how they lose that tempo kind of slowed
down to amorphous sort of a lack of rhythm. It's
almost like when a music slows down and speeds up again.
You know, it's like there's no strict time and an ornamentation,

(33:44):
which would be like for drummers and what not, be
like flams, I imagine, And then what else you can
do with the clicks in general? And to me that
strikes a chord as being a musician. It strikes a
chord with me, no pun intended, because you know music,
I mean, it is language, it is it's a lot
of things. And then language is kind of one of them,

(34:04):
because musicians can in fact communicate to each other without words,
you know, through the music, And it doesn't surprise me
in all that other animals, being a little bit closer
to the source in some ways, would probably do the
same thing.

Speaker 5 (34:19):
Yeah, makes sense.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Can you imagine if we do reach the point where
we've derived some sort of like global language across all
communicative animals and could use that in the field, Who
knows what would show up?

Speaker 5 (34:34):
Oh my god, just like the stuff we dream about
could eventually become a reality. That's just that could it
could happen, We could get there.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Well, you know what, and a thing of value to
me at least with this kind of study besides just
you know, learning more about the animals themselves. You know,
bigfoots are sperm whales in this case or anything like that.
Although you kind of run in a risk like what
if this you've figured out the sperm whale is saying.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
Why are you doing this to us? It's like, well,
that'd be a I'm out right.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
But this kind of thing, this kind of study, that
these methodologies could be applied to other non human intelligences,
potentially not even from this planet. Because when I see
like SETI, for example, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. When
I see programs like that, and I think those are
fantastic programs, and I encourage people to learn about them,

(35:23):
and I hope that those particular programs continue. I think
that's a very interesting question, probably one of the most
important questions we can ask ourselves as a species. But
I think that one of the faults they're in is
and I think that we're coming out of this as well,
is that humans are always again, humans are very species centric.
We're always looking for things like us, and it makes
sense because we're the only things we really know. We're

(35:45):
looking for human like intelligence and other even another species.
Now all of us, as bigfooters, I'm sure to get
asked about how smart bigfoots are, and the real answer is, well,
you're kind of doing apples and oranges.

Speaker 5 (35:58):
You know.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
We can ask how human like their intelligence is, but
that doesn't tell us how smart they are, because we're
comparing something that is unfair to them. They don't use
their intelligence in the same way that we do, So
why would you even ask that question in that way?

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Is my thought?

Speaker 4 (36:16):
You know, as Bobo I said this literally this week
in the museum.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Bobo. Someone is asking me about the intelligence level of bigfoots,
and I said, well, Bobo says they're smarter than us
because they don't have jobs and they don't pay taxes.
But that's not a fair measurement. You know, that's not
a fair calibration of how smart they are.

Speaker 5 (36:31):
I don't know, because it'd be smarter than you and Matt.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
You do have a job, I did want to ask.
I mean, we could save it for the members section,
but I'm sure the main show listeners would like it.
Update about how the job's going.

Speaker 5 (36:45):
It's cruising.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (36:47):
They're challenging, but I like them and I have a
good time with them.

Speaker 4 (36:51):
I'm glad you're enjoying your job there.

Speaker 5 (36:53):
Bo.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
I'm happy, almost happy you're working with the kids man,
because you are like a you know, you're.

Speaker 4 (36:58):
Fantastic with children.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
They love you and you communicate effectively with them, and
so I think that's a great job for you.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
I'm really happy for you.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
But you know, getting back to the sperm whale thing
real fast before we go on to the next topic.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
It reminded me, did I.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Ever tell you about I was driving home from work,
like last year A year before and I got pulled
over by a dolphin and I was issued a speeding cetacean.

Speaker 5 (37:22):
Cliff.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
That might be the most dad of all the dad
jokes I've heard you generate this far. Really, Yeah, that's
a pretty that's a pretty dad joke.

Speaker 4 (37:37):
I don't even have children that I'm aware of, so perfect.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
And while that one is very promising, the next article
is a little on the darker side, I would say.
I mean, it's obviously for the greater good, or at
least that's the plan and why this particular plan is
being put into place. But there was an article here
from Live Science about the US Fish and Wildlife Services plan,
which has been received very controversially. Obviously to remove roughly

(38:04):
four hundred and fifty thousand bard owls over a thirty
year period, so it's a pretty extended time, but nearly
half a million individuals will be removed from the Northwest
in order to protect two of the native owl species,
the Northern spotted owl and the California spotted out Well.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Now, of course, the big deal here is that they're
taken over, right, They're just taken over. And barn owls
are native here, aren't They are there only native to
the eastern United States.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
There's one species strixveria, originally native to eastern North America,
and so they expanded westward in the twentieth century due
to human induced change. But the first sighting of a
barn owl in Washington, for example, in western Washington, wasn't
until nineteen seventy two.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
Oh, right, so that there was an eastern barn owl
but not a western barnow. They just that's kind of like, yeah,
that's kind of like East cavina or something like that.

Speaker 5 (38:52):
Yeah, because how long would that to be, like to
be considered a distinct subspecies, Like how long would that
to be separated?

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Well, now that genetics are in play, a lot of
those subspecies that were put in place before don't really
hold up now that we have genetics. You know, people
would find slight phenotypic variations, and I think mostly they
were incentivized to dub something a new species because now
they're a discoverer of something. You know, so their name
is permanently attached to something. It's good for a career,
it's good for publication, et cetera. And so you know,

(39:20):
at certain points you had animals with wide distributions across
North America that had slight phenotypic differences and it be
you know, designated, there's twenty subspecies, and then genetics comes along.
It's like, nope, they're all the same. They're not subspecies.
You know, these minor differences. So who knows, you know,
how long it would take for something to truly speciate

(39:42):
between two distinct subspecies. You know, I don't know how
many generations. I guess it would depend on a number
of factors. But yeah, a lot of the the subspecies
stuff is kind of hogwash as we're seeing.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
So what do you think about that?

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Like, so there's too many barn owls, it's doing damage
to the population of spotted owl and probably some other
like native stuff. But I know spotted owls are mentioned
in this particular article because they're they're they're they're an
endangered species. But what do you think about that? Like
is this the best solution? What do you And also
I'm scanning the article there, I don't see it. Maybe

(40:17):
are they hunting these things?

Speaker 4 (40:18):
What are they doing?

Speaker 2 (40:18):
How are they getting rid of these owls? And is
that the best way to do it?

Speaker 5 (40:22):
Shotguns?

Speaker 4 (40:23):
Shotguns? Huh? Like at night or just during the day.

Speaker 5 (40:26):
Yeah, they like we used to shoot them because when
all that stuff was going on, when I was logging
all that stuff with the spotted owl like thirty years ago,
we'd shoot the barn owls because we knew that they
were displacing this spotted owls and we didn't want the
spotted ol populations to go down. But I don't think
it just didn't make a dent really.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, it says the nearly half a million barn owls
constitutes less than one percent of the entire United States
based bart out population. And again this would be over
thirty years and so you know, when you see those numbers,
you think, oh my gosh. But then in the context
of things over that span of time, But it is
funny to see like, oh, well, we've got to preserve

(41:07):
these spotted owls because they're endangered. It's like, well, why
are they endangered? Oh, they were endangered due to habitat
loss from human activities.

Speaker 5 (41:15):
You know.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
It's like we're we are the stewards, and so yes,
it is incumbent upon us. It's our moral or ethical
obligation to right that wrong. But I can see how
it would be received controversially because it looks like, you know,
we're saying it's all the barred out to blame and
they're going to pay the proverbial price for it, so
to speak. But it's much more nuanced and complicated than

(41:38):
just like, yeah, we're going to take out half a
million bard owls, deal with it.

Speaker 5 (41:42):
You know.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
It's it's not as black and white and as simple
as that, you know, because we're very good at bringing
things back from the brink. I mean we did that
with the grizzly bear, which we put it to the
brink and then we successfully brought it back. You know.
I remember there was a lot of I think all
these things are controversial because animals tug it our hearts
and they mean a lot to us, and they're amazing
to see. There was a lot of controversy when the

(42:05):
grizzly was delisted from the endangered species list, and you know,
people thought that this was a tragedy. It's like, actually, no,
that's the sign of victory that we brought it back
from the brink and that there's a healthy enough population
now that we can call certain individuals to maintain the
health of this population. But that we've brought it back
to that point. Now again, we put it in that
place in the first place, which required our intervention. But

(42:29):
you know, there is a balance and things are always shifting.
There's no set point as populations grow and expand and
collapse due to a host of different factors, and if
we want to keep those things in balance, things like
this have to occur. So I was always frustrated by
you know, some of the skeptical arguments against the Sasquatch
rely on the concept biological ecological concept of carrying capacity,

(42:51):
which is sort of you know, this might be controversial
for me to say, but in my estimation as a
amateur autodidact, you know, I don't have a degree, but
what's carrying capacity? Because the environment is always changing, the
resources are always changing, So you can't say, like, this
environment could support x amount of this, This is the
carrying capacity of that land. Well, yeah, maybe last year,

(43:14):
but who's to say what will happen in the next
five years or what it was like ten years ago,
twenty years ago, one hundred years ago. And so these
things are always in flux. Every part of that system
is always moving and changing, and so I don't think
this is necessarily, it shouldn't be as controversial as it is,
as long as we're trusting that the biologists involved and

(43:35):
the people who've made these decisions are doing so in
you know, with the best of intentions and in good faith,
and with the best data available to them.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
So the article mentions that bard owls.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Have basically made it with spotted owls as well, banking
hybrids of these two animals.

Speaker 4 (43:54):
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Speaker 2 (43:55):
And I know it dilutes the gene pool of the
endangered species. And I'm trying to tie this back to
sasquatches here. Would it be odd if we discover sasquatches
and then suddenly they start breeding with us voluntarily or otherwise,
and then there's there's bigfoot human hybrids and they take over.

Speaker 5 (44:14):
You have been paying attention, Cliff, because that's been happening
for centuries. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
See, Bobo is a shill for the human sasquatch hybrid.
I think Bobo's part sasquatch is twice so tall and imposing.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Rights six foot four with boots on over seven feet
when he wears his personality.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Because we get we get accused of being shills, you know,
trying to hide the truth of the Sasquatch. But I
think Bobo is like a he's a paid shill for
the Sasquatches.

Speaker 5 (44:45):
Whatever you three d ors think. Whatever. Yeah, I like those.
That's a good payment. I could get behind some backstrapspend
some backstraps. I'd be all in.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
You've got a bank account full of like moss and
pine cones, feathers.

Speaker 4 (45:01):
Yeah, feather and crappy human trash.

Speaker 5 (45:04):
There you go, Paulish River Rocks. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
You know, when I'm driving around on the road, I
think it's roadkilled, but it's actually this payment for Bobo.
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bobo will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
I mean, it would be interesting if that spotted out popular.
I guess if left unchecked, there would be a possibility
that they could go extinct really due to absorption. Being absorbed.
But are their offspring viable because you know, multiple species
within a given genus can hybridize, but very often they
don't produce viable offspring, and so it's not like they

(45:47):
can absorb the whole population versus other species that are
more closely related, you know, within the same genus can
produce viable offspring, and so that sort of creates like
a feedback loop, and one population absorbs the other one
and then neither of the originators are left at least
in a geographic area or just over time in general.
But I'm not certain. Does it say whether or not

(46:08):
the spotted owl bart owl hybrids are viable?

Speaker 5 (46:11):
I didn't see it, don't know, doesn't say that, doesn't
stay in the article.

Speaker 4 (46:17):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
I did a quick Google search and it says bart
owl and spotted owl hybrid offspring often referred to as
sparred owls by the way, are indeed viable and capable
of reproducing.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Okay, so then you know this argument against like well,
we shouldn't intervene and wipe out the barred owl like well,
then eventually, depending on the disparity of the populations, because
barn owls are not endangered, and clearly the spotted owls are,
so they must be in much smaller numbers if left unchecked.
Certainly the possibility has to exist that they would just

(46:49):
absorb that population and you wouldn't have any spotted owls left.
You just have the bart owl hybrid sparred owls.

Speaker 5 (46:57):
I like that, that's a cool name.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
It is kind of cool, and whether they did something
fancy with it. Is there some talk that is perhaps
one of the contributing factors of Neanderthal extinction. Yeah, if
it's extinction at all, it can just be absorbed.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
You know, you can get into a real like philosophical
conundrum because you know, I've had this debate around a
campfire many times when people say, well, you know, humans
are so unnatural. We do this and this and that,
and it's like, no, we're products of nature. Everything we
do is natural. It might not be like what other
animals do, but you know, it is a product of nature.
It's you know, what Dawkins would have called, like the

(47:32):
extended phenotype. And of course it has its consequences. But
if just the fact that we manipulate our environment and
it affects the environment is unnatural, well then ponds that
spring up as the results of beaver dams are unnatural
because beavers are manipulating their environment and they're constructing things,
And like, is it the case that like all this
wouldn't happen without human intervention? This isn't natural, Like, well,

(47:55):
who knows, Like maybe bard Ows would have eventually expanded westward,
or spotted might have expanded eastward and they still would
have blended and absorbed into each other. Who knows, But
I do think the argument that, well, humans shouldn't intervene
here because the bard owl shouldn't pay the price for
the human destruction that led to the endangerment of the

(48:15):
spotted out It's looks like they're heading down that extinction
vortex anyway, which is why we're intervening. So again, it's
super complicated. It's not as easy as like is this
right or is it wrong? Well, it depends, and it's
probably both on multiple levels. What's the end goal? Who
are we trying to protect? And why? You know, which
of these two species? How do they contribute to the

(48:37):
overall health of the environment. Has that been assessed? Is
it absolutely necessary to maintain the population of the spotted
owl for their ecological niche in that particular ecosystem? Who knows.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Maybe we can hybrid hybridize bard owls and human hunters
to kind of like double agents amongst them, you know,
and assassinate them from the inside.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
I'm off myan mothman.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
There you go, It's it's done. Happen Cliff called mothmand.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
I hadn't even thought of that. Of course, you have
these flying humanoids. Clearly the other's already here.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
Only members got to hear because it was in the
members only episode with Lyle. But Bobo did tell us
these I hate bothman, dude, do those things suck?

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Just get one of those big bug zappers you know,
outside your house. I had to do that for hummingbirds.
Man got out of control here?

Speaker 5 (49:28):
Really? Oh no, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
Of course I'm kidding, although I will tell you the
humming birds got out of control here. I'm not allowed
to put feeders up anymore. That's that's not a lie,
that's not a joke. Melissa got real mad at them
because they're they're loud and aggressive and they fight all
the time. It stressed her out. So instead of having
cute little birds around, it was like this, this this
swarm blackening out the sun above us. You know of

(49:52):
these like angry you know, giant mosquito birds, you know,
trying of jousting with each other in mid air.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
You got to wonder if if this would lead to
more sasquatch sidings. If you have that many people whose
professional obligation it is to be out in the Pacific
Northwest at night in the forest.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
Oh it had to, it would have to.

Speaker 5 (50:13):
That'd be the squatchiest job ever.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
But they'd also be the last people to report it
because they'd be you know, on the payroll for US
Fish and Wildlife, and so it's probably like, yeah, that's
my job might be at risk if I claimed I
saw seven and a half foot tall you know, epe.
You know, it's it's probably the last population of people
that you know, if they actually had encounters, we wouldn't

(50:37):
expect to hear much about it, probably, But I didn't
think that was interesting. That was one juice in and
Bobo and so it's interesting to see and that kind
of debate. And again we've there's so many downstream consequences
of things like this that you know, everything, every intervention
has its unintended consequences. And I've said it, I know

(50:57):
I've said it on the numbers episodes a lot. But
to the main listeners, if you want to read a
book that I think is directly useful as at least
a thought experiment for the sasquatch, but is a factual book.
It's nonfiction, but read Ghost Grizzlies, about the potential survival
of grizzly bears in southern Colorado. It's an amazing book,
and you know all the consequences of the effort to

(51:20):
eradicate grizzlies from Colorado and other areas, and how they
might have survived, and seems like they probably did survive,
and then the efforts that are underway to sort of
brush it under the rug because of the threats that
it poses to the state's economy. It's it's a really
enlightening and insightful book.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
Yeah, I did, in fact read that on your recommendation,
and I very much enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
It's so good.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
All right, Well, you know, we have time for one
more article that we can discuss here before we have
to go on to other things here, So why don't
we do the ape one. This is published on medium
dot com, and this is again all over the news.
I read several different versions of this particular story, and
the title of this is why Apes Don't Ask? And

(52:03):
the gist is that, you know, apes are fantastic. They're
absolutely astonishing animals. You know, they're the most interesting mirror
we can hold up to ourselves. In many many different
ways because we are apes, we are in that general family,
you know. But one of the big differences, one of
the big differences between all the other ape species. But
despite the fact that we can have really rudimentary conversations

(52:26):
with them, we can understand how they're feeling.

Speaker 4 (52:28):
A lot of times.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
But one of the interesting differences, though there are several,
is that even though we can communicate with apes to
some degree, never once has any ape asked one of their.

Speaker 4 (52:44):
Caretakers a question.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
They may ask four things, they may ask, you know,
can you do this, But they don't ask about something
a little bit more esoteric, like say the weather or
where did you get that shoe or something like that.
They just don't ask questions. And there's probably a lot
of reasons for that, and I think it has to
do with something that we can see in our own development.

(53:10):
You can see this in infants, for example, is that
they don't they don't possess something that is referred to
as theory of mind, which is an understanding that other
people can have thoughts and thoughts and ideas that they
personally don't have.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
It.

Speaker 5 (53:25):
It's because they'll have a superable cortex, right or a
really small one.

Speaker 4 (53:30):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
I heard a story once and it's vivid in my
mind that I don't remember the source, so it might
be apocryphal, so you know, I'll have to look this up.
But I do remember hearing that some of the apes
that could speak sign language, and it might have been Cocoa,
would lie to certain trainers about having been neglected in order,

(53:51):
like for example, like they would have been fed, and
then the next trainer would come in and then the
ape would communicate like, you know, I'm hungry, I haven't
been fed yet, which suggests some degree of theory of mine,
because it's sort of like, if I can make you
think something that's not true, I'll get what I want.
So I need you to believe because you I'm aware
that you're unaware of whether or not I've been fed,

(54:14):
and so if I can make you believe that I
haven't been I'll get twice as much food this morning.
Something of that nature. So there are other manifestations. Now, again,
I recall hearing that story very vividly, but I don't
recall the source, so I could be wrong about that.
It might just be one of those apocryphal stories. But
I'm pretty sure that there are other examples of like
that level of abstraction that I do think would apply

(54:36):
to theory of mind that or would suggest that they
do have some degree of that, but it's not coming
in the form of like questions obviously. You know.

Speaker 5 (54:43):
What's funny is how much rumors there were about what
Michael and Coco were able to say and like asking
about like the existence of God, gafter life, and.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
There's a lot of that.

Speaker 5 (54:53):
Yeah, Like I read that numerous times. I used to
talk like it was a you know, I'd quote like
it was a fact, and I felt like, no, yeah, that.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
One of the other stories I remember specifically about Coco
was that that she had apparently gotten upset with a
person and called them like a green turd, and they
were marveling at it because they were like, we've never
taught her insults or to associate, you know, defication feces
as an insult, like to compare a person or a

(55:23):
thing or something to feces as a as a like
an anger response or being upset, and so little things
like that, you know, are these little glimpses of like, oh,
maybe there is something more abstract happening and occurring and
like not just from like direct teaching or learning.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Well, you know, if that story you told is in
fact true, Matt, and you know you acknowledge that you
don't even know if that is. But if that is true,
that is coming from a perspective of one of these
apes knowing something that they're human doesn't know. Maybe that's
a one way street if that's true. Like it's it's
a lot easier to to probably wrap your head around

(56:03):
I know something you don't know, but it's I think
it's a different leap to suggest that you know something
I don't know, because I see I see difficulty with
that even in humans sometimes mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Certainly I see what you mean there, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Yeah, Because if you think you're the center of everything,
as many people and probably some apes do, then that
that it seems like that's a much easier thing to to,
you know, to like I said, for wrap your head around.
I see this with a lot with people who know
a lot about something. Sometimes they know so much about
something that they can't believe that somebody else might know
something they don't, especially if they've been particularly well trained

(56:38):
in it, for example.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Certainly seeing that a lot so with sasquatches.

Speaker 4 (56:44):
What does that mean?

Speaker 5 (56:44):
Then?

Speaker 4 (56:45):
What does that mean?

Speaker 2 (56:46):
And I think it has everything to do with sasquatches.
And I've been saying this kind of for a long
time that like, and the example I use is that
sasquatches are literally hiding from us in the dark. So
I take this as meaning they don't understand that we
see the world differently than them. You know, they can't
wrap their heads around that we don't see in the dark, basically,

(57:09):
despite the evidence that they probably observe, you know, us
carrying flashlights and having to shine lights on things, and
it's probably very very bewildering for them. It's kind of
like in the same way. And I say use this
as a similar example that when I was like ten
years old and I was told that dogs don't see
in color, It's like, well, how do they know? You know,
that's crazy, like because I could only be inside my

(57:30):
own experience and I couldn't get outside my own head.
At that young age, I believed it, but I didn't
really understand it. And of course later on in life,
asking questions, which is what apes don't do, about why
this would be true, I found that they, you know,
you can actually look in the back of their eyes,
and you know, you can see the kind of cells
they have, rods and cones. One doesn't see color, the

(57:53):
other one sees black and white. And the back of
a dog's retina is dominated by the kind that are
black and white. They do have a little bit of
color vision in the blue and green, it turns out,
but they're dominated by this other kind of retinal cell.

Speaker 4 (58:06):
So that's how we know.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
To answer my ten year old self, But sasquatches are
hiding from us in the dark, and I think that right,
there is some evidence, as shaky as it is, that
sasquatches probably suffer from the same phenomenon that they cannot
really wrap their heads around something that is not in
their own experience.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
Yeah, I can't see how they would ever posit that
we see the world differently than they do. It seems
like they assume that we see as well at night
as they do. How could it be any other way?

Speaker 5 (58:34):
You know, things we were talking we were talking about
that with Moneymaker, like fifteen twenty years ago, about how
when they were seen on like not great footage, I
mean it wasn't footage, it was just before they were recording.
But like on like thermal or night vision scopes. The
way they run around like they're going to get shot
out at any second, Like like we like that we

(58:55):
could see, like they thought we could see them, you know,
and that's why they were like that, Like how they
act all, you know, like like like someone in a
battle zone, like you know, keeping low and moving fast
and not skylighting themselves and that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
But as humans, we can we can take a pretty
good guess that they can see moderately well at night
to some degree, to some degree maybe, you know, and
we can kind of figure that out by observing behaviors
and taking guesses at things. But they don't seem to
be able to do that. So much kind of goes
back to the are they people? Nah, they're not people.
They're sasquatches or something else.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
So if you do encounter a sasquatch, you don't get
to say to it question, all right, is that it? Then?
I think that's it for this episode, because we've got
a good member's episode cooking a lot of great questions
from the members and some stuff, and so, folks, if
you want to sign up and be a member of
the link is in the show notes and you also
get episodes ad free. And then now we do have

(59:52):
a yearly discount, so if you do the annual membership,
you're going to save ten percent, which is pretty great saving.
So head on over to link in the show notes
and see what all the fuss is about.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
Okay, then, Bobo, why don't you get us out of here? Man?

Speaker 5 (01:00:05):
All right? Okay, folks, that's another episode of Bigfoot Beall
with Cliff and Bobo, and this time Matt Pruitt joining us.
So that's always a treat. We get through it all
the time. For the Patreon members when we do extra
episode every week, we got Mat on there all the time.
So if you enjoyed this style, we'll have a Matt
on there. Sign up for the Pictreon join us over there.

(01:00:26):
We have a great time. All right, Thanks again, folks,
and until next week, y'all keep it squatchy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
us on iTunes and subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever
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(01:00:59):
the hashtag Bigfoot and Beyond.