Ep. 293 - Monster Law!

Cliff Barackman speaks with lawyer and author Francisco Arbenz about his new book "Monster Law: Real Laws About Monsters in America"! Arbenz takes his readers on a thrilling expedition across the United States, uncovering bizarre ordinances and surprising statutes that blur the line between folklore and jurisprudence. 

Order the book here: https://northamericanbigfootcenter.square.site/product/book-monster-law-francisco-arbenz/1736?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=5

Previous episodes mentioned:
Ep. 264 - Saving Sasquatch! 
Ep. 035 - The Bigfoot Law Backstory Minisode

Craig Woolheater's Recovery GoFundMe: https://www.gofundme.com/f/stitches-and-staples-and-fracture-oh-my-seeking-assistance?qid=ca7954b8a1cbb3d542ee98d1a6951ee3

Sign up for our weekly bonus podcast "Beyond Bigfoot & Beyond" and ad-free episodes here: https://www.patreon.com/bigfootandbeyondpodcast

Get official "Bigfoot & Beyond with Cliff & Bobo" merchandise here: https://sasquatchprints.com/bigfoot-and-beyond-merch/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys
are you fave?

Speaker 2 (00:10):
It's so like say subscribe and rage.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
It five star and me greatest quesh today and listening
watching lim always keep it's watching and now your hosts
Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay. Hey, everybody, it's Cliff
from this podcast that you happen to be listening to

(00:35):
right now, Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo and
Matt and whoever else is around. However, today I am
the only person around, So it's basically Bigfoot to Beyond
with Cliff and Cliff and Cliff and a guess, but
the other characters aren't here right now. Matt Pruitt is
in Hawaii with his lovely and telliged wife Emily, and

(00:56):
they're cruising around doing their thing, vacationing. Everybody deserves vacation,
even that bigfooters like Matt Pruitt every once in a while.
And of course Bobo, who was gonna be here? I
really shot myself in the foot, but in a good
way for this one.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Okay, so you're out there thinking, okay, Bobo's not here again,
what's up with that? Well, What's up with that is
that there was a sighting about thirty or forty minutes
from his house the night before last, and so Bobo
was in La visiting his parents. I called some people around,
I left a message with Bobo. He got back to
me yesterday and said, dude, I want to go check
it out, and so I gave him the contact information.

(01:31):
Turns out being, you know, Humboldt County. Bobo kind of
knew the guy because Bobo knows pretty much everybody in
northern California, in that northwest corner of California at least,
So he and the witness, we're going to go to
the location up there by Big Lagoon if everybody know,
if anybody knows where that is up there on the
coast of California. So Bobo and the witness, we're going

(01:51):
to go up there and look around in the exact
same spot where the thing was standing just two nights ago.
So hopefully Bobo will uncover some foot prints, maybe some hair,
god knows what. But we look forward to Bobo coming
back and telling us about what he found. So, yeah,
he was going to go after work, but he said, Cliff,
I'm going to go after work today. It's like, whoa,
I haven't heard you say that for many times because

(02:14):
his employment has always been odd and sketchy and like
spotty and stuff, you know, working on fishing boats and
you never know when he's coming back and that kind
of thing. So now that he has a steady gig,
it's like a brand new Bobo, a brand new Bobo.
But anyway, yeah, so that's been going on. This is
when I'd normally tell Bobo about going to the woods
and all that sort of stuff, and he's not here,

(02:35):
so I'll tell you, yeah, I went to the woods.
Have been the woods three times in the last like
six days, seven days, I think, found mostly nothing, But
yesterday one showed up. In this kind of far flung
corner of Mountain Hood National Forests that I've been trying
to get to as much as possible before the snow's
set in, I found a trackway, kind of interesting little

(02:57):
footprint there. I cast. It turned out okay, the footprints
the photographs actually look better. But anyway, just more data
points and trying to build a picture of what these
critters are up to out there, because nobody really knows
very much. All these self proclaimed experts perhaps maybe experts
in the subject, but not certainly not experts in the animal.
We don't know what the hell's going on at these things.

(03:18):
And the more I study these animals, the more I
realize I know so much less than I thought I
did just ten years ago, five years ago. But anyway,
so today we have a guest, and this gentleman has
written a book that we just got in stock at
the North American big Foot Center, that little shop that
I run down there in Boring, Oregon. And so when
I started thumbing through this new book, I said, oh,

(03:40):
this is pretty cool. Actually, a lot of people ask
about this subject. A lot of people have a lot
of questions about when did this happen or that happen.
And I said, oh, well, this is a great opportunity
to get this book in people's hands. And the book
is called Monster Law, and the author is Francisco are Bends,
and he is here with us now right now. Hey, Francisco,

(04:01):
how you doing man?

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Hi Cliff, good, how are you?

Speaker 1 (04:03):
I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I'm so thankful that
someone besides me could show up to the podcast today.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, honestly, I still can't believe I'm here. I'm a
longtime listener and first time invitee, so it's it's a
real privilege.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Oh no kidding, I didn't.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, I didn't.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
I didn't know you listened as well.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
That's cool.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Well, I'm glad you could make it on. I think
you have a nifty little book here. And when I
say little, I don't mean that demeaning. I'm just saying that, like,
you know, what is it? I'm looking have it in
my hands. It's forty five pages long. So this is
a cause something you can just sit down and devour
pretty quickly. And you know, it's that time of year,
so it might be a good stalking stuffer, especially if
you have a big foot size stalking over your your

(04:43):
fireplace there. Yeah, it's a cool little book. I'm glad
somebody did it. Now, how did you come about to
writing this thing? Because Bigfoot Monster Law rather is about
all the well many of the various laws and ordinances
and all that sort of stuff protecting monsters of various sorts,
bigfoot included. How did you decide to put this together?

Speaker 2 (05:04):
So, as far as I can remember, I've always had
an interest in cryptozoology the supernatural more broadly, but I
grew up watching you know, Monster Quest lost tapes on
Animal Planet. I think I caught a finding Bigfoot in
its final season, so I unfortunately wasn't able to really

(05:24):
get into it from the beginning. But it kind of
like my interest in this, like Waxed and Wayne, that
didn't really interfere with my with my field of study
until the second year in my law school my law
school career. There I was working on some really boring
project and while I was sifting through this book, I

(05:49):
came across the resolution passed by the New York State
Assembly I think it was in nineteen eighty three protecting
champ the lake monster in Champlain. And after reading that,
I thought, wait, this isn't the first one I've encountered.
I think I recall Scamania County having its own ordinance

(06:10):
protecting sasquatch. So then that got me down a rabbit hole,
like how many laws are out there that protect not
just sasquatches but also lake monsters. And I just started
looking and I compiled him into this book.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Oh that's pretty cool. And so you have a law background,
you went to law school, did you ever take your
juris doctorate? I don't even know what's at the end
of the line for that kind of folks. Are you
working law now, right?

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yes? I do. I actually graduated earlier this year.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Oh really, congratulations on that.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, thank you. After you're done with university, you pursue
if you're studying law, you apply to law school, you
get your juris doctor, and then after that you take
the bar exam. And that was a very that was
a terrifying experience. I've never really known someone who went
to law school. I couldn't really get that encouragement. So

(07:06):
then I thought, Wow, if only there was someone out
there who was really into Bigfoot and also went to
law school. And then on roughly about a week before
I took the bar exam, I remembered Matt Moneymaker. He
did go to law school, he has a juris doctor
and he's the founder of the BFRs. So who better
to ask than Matt Moneymaker? So I had no idea,

(07:29):
But he actually has a cameo. So I went through it.
I submitted a request and he was very professional, very encouraging. Yeah,
he was very awesome. And with Matt's words ringing in
my ear, I sat down for the new York State
Bar Exam and I passed in Yeah. I took it
in July. Received the news that I passed in October.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, fantastic, Kim. Matt never actually took the bar. He
wanted to learn the rules, and I think it really
have served him, has served him way well. You know,
with especially intellectual property rights and all that sort of
stuff that you often run One often runs across issues
with that in bigfoot land. You know about cast reproduction
or photographs or footage rights and usage and all that

(08:13):
sort of stuff. So I think Matt's background in law
and especially the arguing side of things, you know, how
to argue things down in a courtroom. I think all
that has served Matt very very well in his probably
the most like the most opposite thing, right, the most
opposite you'd think a criminal being opposite thing, but like
Matt has a stock to it. But yet he looks

(08:33):
for Bigfoot for a living. Yeah, it's like you never
know where you're going to end up, I suppose.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, I think. I think I recall an episode of
Finding Bigfoot where Matt was saying that he chose his
law school based off of the Bigfoot reports in the area.
So I wish I had that that foresight to choose
such a law school.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Well it's not too late. I mean, I chose my
address based on citing reports. I assume most bigfooters do that.
I don't know within a few miles of many many reports.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
I live in a very weird world. Why I assume
that's normal, But maybe it's not. Maybe it's not. But
so getting into your book, and I just love this book.
I just love the book. It's it's it's not a
heavy read, like say, you know, a legal text would be,
because they legal anything. It's just like, boy, you guys
make it really hard to understand anything. But you certainly
didn't write this book that way. It's it's just again

(09:26):
a page or two or three kind of a little
bit of background for the law, kind of a little
bit about the cryptid in general if people didn't know
what it was, you know, and then the law itself.
And there's a lot of these and I think it's
appropriated of course that you basically started off. I mean,
they're past the introduction and stuff with the Scamania County
law because that's what most people know of as far

(09:49):
as laws on the books protecting sasquatches. It always starts
with Scamania County, Washington, which is right, of course, of course,
right across the Columbia River from where I am. But
you know, before we before we jumps into specifics and backgrounds,
I did run into some legal language here, and I'll
probably be interrupting at various times for clarification. But the

(10:10):
first thing I jumped into when when I started taking
notes for this interview is laws versus ordinances. What's the difference?

Speaker 2 (10:19):
So, I think the biggest difference is that they're both
passed by legislative bodies. But the biggest difference is that
an ordinance is it's enforceable, it gets permanent until it
is repealed. Well, when compared to a resolution, it's more
of a statement of belief or an official position taken

(10:42):
by a legislative body, and it's not really as powerful
as an ordinance. And so Skamania County actually has an ordinance,
so it's enforceable. It's more than a symbolic gesture.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Okay, So laws are ordinances, and then resolutions that will
get too late and proclamations those are just you know,
like pr things or something. Is that kind of the
idea sort of.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
They they're official, they they're passed by legislative bodies, but
they're not the biggest difference is that they don't really
they're not enforceable. There's nothing like if like, they don't
have an enforcement mechanism built into them, whereas an ordinance
absolutely does. Like Skamania Counties, like if you were to
heart to hurt a bigfoot with malice a forethought, then

(11:34):
that would be like a thousand dollars fine, a year imprisonment,
and that's that's pretty enforceable.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely is. And of course, okay, well let's
talk about that Scamania County law because it is by
far the most famous by far. Right, Now, are you
are you aware of some of the events that led
up to this law or is it just the law thing?
Like how deep did you dive on this one?

Speaker 2 (11:57):
So I was able to uncover an interview done by
one of the county commissioners and his name was Conrad Lundy,
and one of the things that he cited as motivating
the county commissioners to pass this ordinance was public safety. Apparently,
people were going into Scamania County with rifles and trying

(12:21):
to hunt the Sasquatch, and he really feared that if
anyone like someone could get hurt, you know, so he thought, well,
it's better to pass this law just as a deterrence
from having so many people coming into this area with
high powered rifles and potentially having a fatality. And I

(12:42):
think the fact that the Patterson Gimlin film was shot
just I think two or three years prior to this
ordinance being passed, I think that also had a lot
to do with this.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Well. Yeah, of course there was a rash of sightings
and footprint finds as well in the area. And if
you go way back to the beginning of this podcast
here Bigfoot and Beyond, I sat down with one of
the witnesses that was involved in those early events. Her
name was Linda Durrell. So this is a great opportunity
for Matt Prout to put that link in the show

(13:15):
notes if everybody wants to go check it out. And
she called in, of course, the deputy sheriff Bill Klausner,
who's still alive, by the way, I have a line
on him. I'm trying to work with him on perhaps
some lending some artifacts to my museum. So hopefully we
can get some of those lined up here soon. I'll
shore with everybody if that happens. But yeah, a whole
rash of sightings and footprint finds were happening just north

(13:38):
of Carson, Washington, out there on Bear Creek and Panther
Creek and stuff in that area, and sound like people
like you said, were going out into the woods with
high powered rivals going to bag me a big foot
sort of thing. And on April first, and I think
they chose that date on purpose, by the way, April
Fool's Day, April first, nineteen sixty nine, they passed this

(13:59):
law making it illegal to try to or to kill
sasquatches ten thousand dollars fine. And of course back in
nineteen sixty nine, that was a giant chunk of change.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, and five years in imprisonment in the county.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Jail and five not and or in one of those
oh yeah, and or okay, what's stille. You know, let's
throw the book at him if they do that. And
of course, like you said, it was kind of for
public safety, because you know, people shooting at bipedal shape
things in the woods probably isn't a good idea.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, And in nineteen eighty four. They did amend it
just a little bit. They reduced the ten thousand dollars
penalty to one thousand to five year imprisonment to one
And I think an interesting thing they did was they
got rid of the diminished capacity defense and what that

(14:51):
is like, you can't really plead ignorance if you were
to find yourself at the mercy of this law. So
I thought that was pretty interesting.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
Oh really, so some somebody like I didn't know it
was illegal. I thought ignorance of the law wasn't a
good excuse.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Well, another thing that the minished capacity could mean is that,
like you, it's a defense that people often bring up
when they say, well, I didn't know that my consequences,
that my actions were going to bring about this consequence,
And it's a valid defense depending on the on the offense,
but not in this case. The county commissioners. Even though

(15:28):
they lowered the penalty, they lowered the imprisonment duration, they
upped the they upped the stakes in that sense.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Oh that's interesting, that's really interesting. Stay tuned for more
Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo will be right
back after these messages, and of course this public safety
aspect is super important because you know, somebody, anybody out

(15:57):
there trying to kill a sasquatch. It turns out humans
look a like an awful lot like sasquatches, especially in
the dark at a distance, and god forbid one of
these people are puts on a monkey suit for a hoax.
The number of people have been killed over the years, none,
none by bullets or anything that we know of, at least,
but some guy in Montana got rolled by a couple
of cars just a handful of years ago by doing

(16:18):
a big foot hoax running across the road in a
gilly suit of some sort. And so back in sixty
nine and seventy, when all the hooplaw was happening there
in Thiscamania County about these prints that were cast by
the sheriffs and all this other stuff, I imagine some you know,
jokers were probably out there in monkey suits. And you know,
it may before this law, it may or may not

(16:40):
have been illegal to kill a sasquatch in Scamedia County.
But I'm pretty sure it's always been illegal to kill
a jackass in a monkey suit.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
You know, one of the changes that happened in nineteen
eighty four. To this law is that okay, became a misdemeanor, right,
instead of a felony. I suppose, But some of the
language that I encountered here I don't understand. Perhaps you can,
I know, you can clarify it for me. What is
a gross misdemeanor versus a simple misdemeanor?

Speaker 2 (17:08):
So a gross misdemeanor is one that is done at
least this might depend on their jurisdiction's definition as opposed
to here in New York. But my understanding is that
a gross misdemeanor is one that is done with premeditation,
like with like you fully intended on doing this.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Okay, So moving to a different part of Washington. Washington
seems to be very very ahead of the game, by
the way, and some in a lot of this bigfoot
loss stuff. To a different part of Washington, we have
Watcom County, and over there we have a resolution. A
resolution is just kind of like we're all behind this,
but we don't have teeth, as you said earlier. But
tell me about their resolution.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, it's basically a symbolic resolution. It's not there are
there are no enforcement mechanisms behind it. They they've basically
followed followed in the footsteps of Scamania County shortly after
they passed theirs.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
It's kind of like, Okay, you can't hunt them here,
or will frown upon you heavily.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, well I'm not afraid of being frowned upon. But
still I think it's a good idea for the thing
and really looking at what's what has happened to Scamedia County,
little old Scamania County. There's not a lot of people
living there. I love Scamedia County, love going to Stevenson,
I'll think, But I'm a bigfooter with you know, this
law kind of put Scamania County on the books for

(18:32):
a lot of people who probably never even heard of
the place. And I bet you wotcam County kind of
was interested in that too. That's just my gut feeling
on this.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, while I was doing some research on Welcome County,
I had no idea that they were actually the world's
largest producer of red raspberries. I think they have that
going for them as.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Well, right, right, So if you're not a raspberry nerd,
then perhaps you know, the big foot nerd thing will
take it you know can help you out there too
by putting walkcom County on the map for you. Do
you have any idea, because you know the Comedia County stuff,
there is a rash of sidings and the Sheriff's for
casting footprints and all this other stuff. Do you have
any idea what led to the Walkame County resolution or

(19:13):
is it just like, hey, they're getting all this attention
and like we're kind of you know, the middle child here,
you know, with the jan Brady of the group here,
maybe we want a little bit more that attention. Do
you know what led to this or is it just
a thing where they wanted some more eyes on them
income dollars.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
I'm pretty sure it was a more of a publicity thing.
I don't think anything to groundbreaking was going on SaaS
squatch wise.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Okay, yeah, well that's what I kind of assumed as well,
because I haven't read any of the history behind it.
And of course, is somebody up in Walkham County wants
to correct me, My God, send us an email. I
want to learn, so absolutely do that to us. Well, now,
of course, now the next thing on my list here
is the proclamation in grays Harper County, Washington another place
in Washington. And how does a proclamation differ from a

(20:03):
resolution because neither one has teeth.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Honestly, there aren't that many differences. Both of them are
a legislative body taking an official position on a given subject.
But as you said, they don't really have the same
amount of teeth. I guess that an ordinance would have.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Well, now, of course, the Grays Harbor one, we know
a lot about that here on Bigfoot and Beyond because
we actually had the teacher that kind of pushed us forward,
Miss Andrews and her fifth grade class of do gooders
up in Grays Harbor County, Washington. We know all about this.
They've been wildly successful with their proclamations. But just in
case we have some new listeners who haven't heard, who

(20:46):
haven't heard, that particular episode here, that Matt prou will
certainly put a link in the show notes to tell
us about how this thing came about.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yeah, Miss Andrews her classroom in Lincoln Elementary School. Like
they managed to convince Grace Harbor County the Klalam County
as well, they managed to convince both of them to
pass a proclamation or resolution to protect sasquatches and recognize
them as an endangered species. And that's pretty amazing, especially

(21:19):
considering they were I believe in third and fifth grade
when they passed them both.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Well, yeah, nothing puts pressure on you like thirty ten
year olds. I'll tell you speak speaking of a fifth
grade teacher, a former fifth grade teacher, I can tell
you that firsthand. And I think that, you know, any
legislative body would crumble under the pressure.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, I think of all of I guess what you'd
call them the most successful monster law lobbyists, it would
be Miss Andrews and her elementary classroom.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
And you know, just you know, Miss Andrews is a listener,
and I think a lot of our students might be
listening to this one too, So you feel free to
say hi because they definitely can tributed to your book.
And I can recommend Miss Andrews, this is a good
book for your classroom. I mean it's right up your alley.
So got to check this one out. You know, the
other working on Mason County too, I believe.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Oh that's amazing. Yeah, I'd have to go.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
Back and listen to the podcast when she was on.
This was only like probably last spring. Or something. I
don't remember. I've got a pretty wonky sense of time,
but it wasn't that long ago that she was on
the podcast. And I think that she said that she
set in her sights on Mason County. So, Mason County,
they're coming for you.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
I think one of the students, like, I don't know,
I don't think they mentioned his name, but they when
they were asked like, what motivated you to put this
pressure on the county commissioners, they said that it was
to encourage scientific study of sasquatches. And I thought that
was a very intelligent response for an elementary school person.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, fantastic, Yeah, And she was just a treasure to
have on the podcast. I really really enjoyed her conversation.
Of course, and you know, you talk about how resolutions
and proclamations don't have any teeth. Man a fifth grade
I imagine being, you know, being the guy who hunts
or damages or harms a sasquatch in some sort of way,

(23:13):
or you know, some self serving bureaucrat sort of politician
person who votes no on this kind of thing. Imagine
getting hate mail from like a fifth grade classroom and
all their siblings.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Absolutely and I feel like miss Andrews is I think
she correct me if I'm wrong one of the I
think it was Klalum Counties, like during that movement, they
did it as part of a Civics class project, I think,
and oftentimes I think a lot of people are intimidated
by their local government, like or they feel disconnected from it.

(23:48):
And like seeing what a classroom of elementary kids can
do if they can hold their own local government accountable
and have them do something that they want. I think
that's a really good example of government serving the people,
even like even something as seemingly trivial as this, you know,

(24:11):
like people shouldn't be they shouldn't feel distant from their
from their governments.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
No, no, you know, by the people for the people, right, absolutely, yeah,
And it's a perfect example of it. I think that
too many times, you know, too many times, like the
barrier between the people and the law is the amount
of tedium you know that you have to go through
to get there, you know, waiting in line for the
microphone at the city council meetings or waiting through law

(24:38):
books because you got to make I mean, you've probably
probably pretty use of the language by now, but it's
pretty difficult to understand a lot of that stuff, I
think for the lay person.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, a lot of Latin.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah yeah, but that makes sense that because you want
to be as precise as possible in your language to
define the law and thus the reality that you want.
And we live in a weird universe where la language
literally defines reality so much to the point that people
think in words instead of actions and stuff, very very unusual.
But then again, we're kind of bordering on like a

(25:10):
consciousness theory and stuff like that, where you know, people
think in words and that defines their situation and their
mood and their identity and everything else. So a wonky
system we have running around of these meat robots that
were stuck in But okay, so miss Andrews, of course,
you know she And again I really do hope you're listening,
Miss Andrews, that like she deserves like you know, the

(25:31):
patron saint of elementary schools law teaching in my opinion,
and because these these laws, as inconsequential as they might
seem to us, are probably pretty consequential a sasquatches. You know,
nobody would want to be hunted, I would think, But
let's get out of Sasquatch Land just for a second,
and let's talk about the Geneva City Council protection of

(25:54):
the Seneca. Is that right, Seneca Lake Monster? Oh, that's correct,
it's not Seneka. Okay, you never know the Seneca Lake Monster.
That one two hundred and fifty bucks and fifteen days
in jail. I mean, I wouldn't want to spend any
days in jail, but that seems like a pretty low
punishment there. What was going on with this particular law
or ordinance or whatever it is?

Speaker 2 (26:14):
So the Seneca Lake Monster, And let me describe Seneca
Lake a little, just to give context. It's actually larger
and deeper than Loch Ness, and so I believe since
eight since the late eighteen hundreds, there's been sightings of
what they call the Seneca Lake Monster, and that's basically
a giant sea serpent. And back in eighteen ninety nine

(26:38):
there was a steamboat that spotted it and apparently they
attempted to ram into it and successfully managed to kill it,
it seems, and they tried bringing it towing it onto
the shore, but it was too large and too heavy,
and it threatened to capsize the entire boat, and they

(26:59):
were forced to release it. And I'm not really sure
if that's a true story, but it was reported as
true when it came out back in eighteen ninety nine,
and there's been sporadic sightings ever since then into the present.
And that's when, like more recently, I think this was
in twenty You don't have a copy with me right now,

(27:19):
but I think twenty fifteen or so the city the
city decided to pass a law, and unlike others, this
one does, as you said, does have some enforcement mechanisms
built into it. I think in some ways it even
goes further than some others, because not only does it
forbid the hunting of the lake monster, it also forbids

(27:44):
the use of any city facility to launch a hunting
or trapping party. So you can't even trap it.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Now, No, that seems in the water. What if you
hook it on accident when you're fishing for something else.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
I think you could win that case.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Hopefully to go to court at all about that, that'd
be a bum out.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Well, if you do go to court for that, please
give me a call. I would love to represent someone
who captured a lake monster.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Oh, I bet you would. That would be like a
dream job, wouldn't it. Absolutely, You're on a rever written
books on this subject. I'm clearly an expert.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
You know.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
This is a side question here my understandings, and again
I've got a pretty flimsy understanding of the law. A
precedent is the way somebody has judged in the past
about a certain law. Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (28:29):
More or less? Yeah? Pretty much.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Are there any precedents in monster law to your knowledge
at this moment?

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Unfortunately, not yet, but fingers crossed it happens real soon.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
That's your gateway to to respect in the law community.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
I suppose. Actually I'm not are you Are you familiar
with doctor Robert Ryans?

Speaker 1 (28:51):
The name sounds familiar, but I'm terrible at names, so
maybe so.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
He was a huge lockness monster researchture back in his day.
He passed away like a few years back, and like
if you were to look up his Wikipedia page, it
was like his endeavors in cryptozoology or all that would
really come out. But unbeknownst to most people, he was

(29:16):
actually a very successful patent attorney. I think he's he
either had like between eighty to two hundred patents that
he himself made. So he was a prolific inventor. He
he opened the New Hampshire's first ever and only law school,

(29:37):
so he's kind of an inspiration.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Wow, well that is something that's fantastic, I think. Yeah,
so you're following in his footsteps in some weird way, then.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, absolutely. I hope to someday when I get my
own law froom, I'd love to put a giant portrait
of him right next to the judges that I look
up to.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
Will be right back after these messages. Okay, Well, the
next stop on our journey here is in Whitehall, New York.
Of course, very very famous bigfoot spot, kind of like
the Eastern capital in a lot of ways of the

(30:22):
Bigfoot thing. Because of a bear road and the sightings
that happened out there with police officers. We did a
whole episode out there on finding Bigfoot. It was a
great time, and of course that the town of Whitehall
really embraces the whole Bigfoot thing. They have a Bigfoot
festival I think every year. Now. It's course home to
the great Paul Bartholomew, one of the best Bigfoot researchers

(30:43):
on the East Coast and walking Encyclopedia of Everything Bigfoot. Fantastic,
fantastic person. Good friend. They have a protective resolution that
kind of happened that I think it happened either right
before or concurrent with the Finding Bigfoot team visiting the

(31:03):
Whitehall area. Tell us about this resolution, please.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
So I actually did speak with Paul Bartholomew about this resolution,
and the way he told me was that the it's
called the doctor Warren L. Cook Sasquatch Protective Resolution, and
apparently it's named after his anthropology professor. So I thought
that was that was really cool. And this one prohibits

(31:31):
potentially lethal abuse or annihilation of a Sasquatch.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, and Warren L. Cook is an anthropologist. What do
you know about his backgrounds? I don't know very much.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah. I didn't really go into that much detail with
my conversation with Paul, but from my understanding, it was
he who inspired him to go lobby for this law.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah. Have you did you? Did you take a visit
to Paul or did you just speak to him on
the phone.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
I was just online. I wasn't able to pay him
a visit. I've been law school is really busy sometimes,
but you're right. They celebrate on the last Saturday of
every September. They celebrate that as Sasquatch Appreciation Day. So
now that I'm free, I guess I know where I'll

(32:21):
be going.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Oh yeah, I have never. Of course, I've met with
Paul several times in person when I'm on that side
of the country. I try to, you know, see him
or whatever if I can. But I've never been to
his home, and I understand his home is is basically
a lot like a museum or a library in itself
of everything Bigfoot. So I was just I guess, maybe

(32:45):
gonna recommend you try to get an invite to his
home or something, just to check it out. I understand
it's staggering in his collection there.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
So yeah, he's a pretty big figure in on the
East coast Sasquatch Field.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Now, of course, New York also
has a different Lake Monster champ from Lake Champlain. I've
been there as well. I think actually I visited there
during our Whitehall episode on Finding Bigfoot. They also passed
the law. I wasn't aware of this one at all.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yes, And unlike the others, this one was actually passed
by the New York State Assembly, and I believe that
was let's say that was nineteen eighty three, I believe.
And yeah, this is the one that really got me
into all of this. It's the It encourages serious scientific

(33:36):
research and prohibits any harm from coming to the Lake
Champlain creature. They didn't call it champ So what did
they refer it to refer to it as just the
lake monster. Nothing.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, you don't want to call it by the wrong
name or something, So, yeah, you don't know. It could
be Aul, you know, or Jeff or somebody.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, we'll make sure to ask it when when he
pops up next time, you know.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
You know what struck me about this one is that
it is also just like the fifth grade resolutions over
here in Washington from Miss Andrews class. They also are
encouraging scientific inquiry. I think that's fantastic because these other
ones are basically stopping you from doing something, and these
particular ordinances or resolutions are encouraging something. This ice have encouraging,

(34:22):
you know, legal things, as opposed to just telling you no.
This positive reinforcement instead of the negative reinforcement works better
with dogs.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Too, Absolutely, I think it also helps foster that encouragement
for people to dig deeper into this, into this stuff.
I think there's I do talk about it in the book,
but there is another law that tries to it's very unproductive.

(34:49):
It discourages like investigating sasquatch. And I don't think those
laws are very I don't think they're very good. Frankly,
I think these are much better, as said, because there's
no harm in fostering scientific interest in the unknown. And
I think this even though it's a resolution, it wasn't

(35:12):
ratified by the New York State Senate, so it's more
symbolic more than anything. It's still it still means something
that it's encouraging people to take a more serious look
into this.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Oh yeah, yeah. And if we didn't look into things
that we know nothing about, we'd still be, you know,
as ignorants we were a thousand years ago. It's ridiculous
to discourage something. And speaking of which, you know, you
have a whole section in your book on the failures
of laws to pass or things that just kind of
lost steam and all that sort of stuff. And right away,
the first one, of course, that you mentioned, was out

(35:45):
in New Mexico that there's a scandal a few years
ago about some nonsensical public outrage of a university hosting
and funding a bigfoot conference that doctor Jeff Meldrim attended,
and the whole thing just seemed ridiculous at the time. Yeah,
because they spent like seven grand on this conference, but

(36:06):
they probably made that back. I don't think it was
a free conference. If I remember right, maybe it was.
But then one of the senators, a guy named George Munos,
got involved and he said, no, no more, no more
spending money on this frivolous nonsense. So so that's terrible.
So speaking of laws and stuff in Watcom County, being

(36:26):
raspberry producer, Hey, George Munos, that sucks.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Don't do that.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
So I want to combine rasberry is from a previous
story with this one. But the egg will be on
on representative or you know, Senator Munos's face at some point,
especially when he finds out Sasquatches are in fact living
in New Mexico. Oh, bad choice. You just lost the
big foot vote there. Unfortunate, So tell us a little
about what would happen there.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
So if had this had this passed, I think it
would have forbidden any public funds to be used or
searching for bigfoot, leprechauns, pokemon like this. It wasn't, it wasn't.
I don't think it was a good freight attempt at
preserving public funds as he made it out to be.

(37:14):
I think it was just a like a quick job.
It was like I think he tried to score easy points.
And I think that's it's that's a big shame because
the university that the presentation was done very professionally. It
wasn't just doctor Jeff Meldrum, it was also doctor Christopher Dyer.
And both of these individuals are very highly qualified anthropologists.

(37:38):
I think doctor Dyer is an is an expert in
applied anthropology, ecological anthropology. Meldrum, obviously known for his famous
book Legend Me Science, an expert in anatomy, primate locomotion.
And these are really the kind of things that you
would want to happen. You'd want qualified individuals to take

(38:04):
a serious look at this, and that's what that's what
they did. Or they presented the state of science, the
Sasquatch science. And from my understanding, this was the most
the most publicly attended events in that campus's history. So
I think it was a humongous success. I don't know

(38:25):
why it received this minor backlash from this mister Munno's Yeah,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
It probably does an attention grabbing thing, you know, politicians
can be that sucks. Yeah, it does, it does. So
you have a section on Oklahoma. That section in Oklahoma
was that it was that a few years ago, maybe
a year ago, maybe more, they were encouraging, encouraging the
hunting of sasquatches. Is that what this was this was about.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yes, yes, it was. It was the law was trying
to get people to buy sasquatch hunting licenses. The bill's sponsor,
he himself said that he doesn't want people to actually
go and kill a sasquatch, but he didn't put that
into the laws, so it wasn't I don't know if

(39:17):
you were a sasquatch and this were if you were
to hear about this bill that was being debated at
the time, I think you'd be pretty nervous.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
Yeah, well, you know, I don't think sasquatch has paid
too much attention to the news media in general. Probably
better for them, I think in some ways. And so
there's some other stuff in Washington that didn't get passed.
I guess now flipping through this, I noticed that you're
missing a section or maybe there's maybe there's a second

(39:45):
edition coming out at some point. Are you aware that
the Governor of Oregon back in nineteen seventy seven or something,
in fact check me, please everybody, he was going to
try to get Oregon on board legally speaking to you know,
either protect sasquatches or adopt them as or official this

(40:06):
or that or whatever. There's some legal thing with the
Governor of Oregon in the nineteen seventies that he may
want to address if you ever do a second edition
on this one.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Absolutely, I know the Governor of Washington did try to
do that, and I think in his application he also
he attached a hair sample of supposedly a sasquatch, and
I think he did this as a proclamation. So this

(40:38):
I don't think it went very far after his term ended.
But yeah, I had no idea that the Governor of
Oregon was doing something similar, So I'll have to take
a look into that.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, there's an opportunity for a second edition there. Very good. Now,
now's let's get off the book for a minute. Because
another reason that I wanted to speak to you today
is that you have some very very rare information that many,
many bigfoot researchers have suspected for a long long time.
I've done a little bit of work in this I
know Ken Gerhart has done a little bit of work

(41:09):
in this area. And what I'm talking about is, of course,
are sasquatch sightings in Mexico. I mean, bigfoots are seen
in Arizona, in New Mexico and Texas, in California and
southern California. There's nothing stopping them, not even this giant
imaginary wall from going in and out of Mexico. They are,
in fact in Mexico. And I've taken two i think

(41:32):
reports directly from Spanish speaking people from southern Mexico in particular.
What have you uncovered? Because you're a Spanish speaker, so
you probably understand I mean, obviously you understand what they're
saying far more than I do. I'm not a fluent speaker,
but I speak enough Spanish to know that I'm not fluent.
I can rearrange my sentences using my my twelve year

(41:55):
old vocabulary to say what I want, and I find
understanding to be far more difficult, obviously because native speakers
speak so quickly. But since you are a native speaker,
I'm assuming you're a native speaker at least I know
you speak Spanish. Where you talked about that before we
hit the record button. What have you learned? What have
you uncovered as far as sasquatches in Mexico.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
So, the southern region of Mexico, it's made up of
primarily indigenous communities, and one of them, specifically in the
state of Wohaka. Wahaka is where my parents are from. Actually,
so in this particular region in Wohaka, it's home to
the Mazatec people, and they have a long tradition of

(42:36):
what they call El salvaj, which means the wild one,
and basically when you hear them describe it, it's a
two meter tall, hair covered bipedal person that has the
face of the leathery face of a monkey, and monkeys
do live in southern Mexico, so they actually do describe

(42:59):
these beings as as monkeys, like giant man sized monkeys
without tails, and they they actually have very similar habits
that sasquatches, and in the US and Canada are reported
as having They often raid crops. They they steal hunters catches.

(43:25):
If you hear them screaming in the woods because apparently
they scream really loudly, avoid it. They like the mass
a type. People know to avoid going to these areas
that are known to be inhabited by the Slovaki.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
The one report I remember, speaking to a man in Spanish,
we also came from Wahaka, so it's a is it
a fairly common thing down there? Is it something that
like the local people just kind of accept and don't
really think about because it's just another animal in the woods,
or what's their relationship to this.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
I think it really depends on the area. Big parts
of Ojaka are very error and there aren't that many
reports coming out of those regions. But in this area
called the the Cerro de Lencanto, which means the Hill
of Enchantment. Basically, it's pretty much a giant rainforest, and

(44:21):
over there they they do spot them somewhat regularly, especially
in the rural communities. They definitely consider it to be
a wild person, like it's it's strange. They Slovaki means
the wild one, so it's I guess it would be
in between an animal and the man, and so the

(44:44):
best thing they can call it. Well, interestingly, they do
call it a cannibal. In many of these parts they
call him he's a cannibal. They consider him a person,
but a wild one, one that doesn't act like humans
are supposed to.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Now, have you we've spoken directly to any eyewitnesses or
is this just a cultural thing that you picked up
because your family has origins in that area.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
I did speak with one gentleman. He didn't go into
very much detail, but this was in the Yucatan, so
this isn't really the Mazzateech area. But I didn't cover
this book from the nineteen sixties that describes interviews with them.
It was basically an anthropologist going into the jungles and

(45:29):
speaking with people about their beliefs, and the Salvaje popped
up at least three times.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Really, well, do you know the name of that book.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
I'll look it up for you right now. It's in Spanish,
but I can give you the translation, the translated version
of it. It's called Relatos de l Mundo maxico Mazateco,
which is Stories of the Magical World of the Muzzateech Pool.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
And so there's no there's no English translation of this one. Unfortunately,
it sounds.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Like unfortunately no. But I did translate them so I
can send them over to you if you're interested.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Oh, of course i'd love to. I'd love that, absolutely, absolutely,
because because that's the thing, you know, so little, like
so few whispers of these things leak out of Latin
America in general, but they've got to be there. I've
always there's nothing stopping them except for you know, perhaps habitat,
the preference from being down there. You know, they're sasquatches,

(46:29):
being large, hair covered animals. You think, well, maybe they
don't like jungles or something like that. But but I've
spoken to people who have seen them in jungles, not
only in Mexico, but Bobo. I wish Bobo was here
because he has gathered several reports from people in Nicaragua
about these things. Of course, you know, Guatemala has the
story that Si Samite and and Belize. I guess that

(46:52):
the legend there is al Duende, which means the dwarf
for the you know, the short one. I guess maybe
they saw a baby sasquatch or something at a point.
And of course, and there's also a lot of this
kind of work to be done down in South America.
The most famous South American version, of course, is the
mapping guady in Brazil. But that but that's only famous
because doctor David Orrin and a scientist from the United

(47:16):
States who's an Next Patriot. He lives down there now.
He did a lot of work on this thing. But
if it wasn't for him, probably very few people up
here would know about the mapenguady. So it begs a question, like,
what's going on in Chile, what's going on in Argentina,
what's going on in Bolivia? Like all these other places
that have totally suitable habitat, There's got to be stuff

(47:36):
going on down there. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and
Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll be right back after
these messages.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Are you Are you familiar with the Pombero of Uruguay No? So,
the Pombero is basically a small roughly three foot a
wild human that is reported in the jungles that he
makes bird noises. If you leave food out, he'll come
and take it. And it's really interesting if you look

(48:14):
him up, you'll if you look up El Pombero, you'll
probably find this model made of one back in the
nineteen eighties, and if you put it side by side
with the reconstruction of Homo floresiences, it's an uncanny resemblance.
And I do sometimes show people like, look, these two

(48:35):
are both pictures of Homo floresiences, except know this one
is actually a mythical creature that predates the discovery of
Homo floresiences, and it's I think that's a really remarkable coincidence.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Yeah, yeah, wouldn't that be something? I mean, because they're
still struggling with how did an arcade common en like
homofloresiensis or homoleuson ensis, the newer species discovered and the Philippines,
how did they get to Indonesia? You know, because because
a lot of these islands had never been touched by
land that you had to go by water. They've never

(49:11):
had a land bridge in a lot of these places,
so they're they're struggling with that, like how did these
archaic commonants get over there? But to open that Pandora's
box for South America would really be something. Of course,
I've been being very honest thinking about it right now.
I don't know how monkeys actually got to South America either,
So that's probably very very similar travel route if that's
the case. And of course I have we have several

(49:32):
PhDs in primatology where I'm sure and be more than
happy to tell me how monkeys got to South America anyway,
So what other legends of hair covered critters down in,
you know, south of the border here, whether it's Mexico
or whether it's all the way to Chile, are you
familiar with.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
So other than the Cimita. It's actually also known as
the sin Cimito in some parts, but it's it's interesting
like the Salva of Wohaka, both of these creatures are
described as having backwards feet, and I don't really know
where that detail came from because that book I described earlier,

(50:12):
it goes into different accounts or just different retellings of
the wild man, and those that had first person encounters
don't describe it as having backward facing feet. They describe
it as a hairy wild person scaries that screams at you.

(50:38):
So I don't know where this detail came from, but
it's one that's found in both the Yucatan, Wohaka other
parts of southern Mexico and it's interesting. I really don't
know where that detail came from.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Well, oddly enough, that's a very common motif in stories
from Asia as well, like the Yeti or the Almasty
and those craters over there. They are often described as
having backwards feet. I think it's even prevalent in Indonesia
with the ring and deck and Ebugoco. But another one
of the prominent things they talk about is like getting

(51:14):
them drunk, like leaving out bowls of beer for them,
and or having like long pendulous breasts that they can
throw over their shoulders or hair covers her eyes, so
when you get chased by one run down hill because
the hair covers their eyes and then they can't see
you when they stop chasing you.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Yeah, that's really interesting that you said that that book
that I just that I just mentioned. It's that's one
of the details they describe about the Slovak, or for
the females, it's las salak long pendulous breasts so they
can put over their shoulder and that allows them to
run faster. That's really interesting. I'm not a scientist, but

(51:52):
if I were to hypothesize, maybe just my two cents
as to where the detail of backward facing feet came from.
I imagine maybe someone encountered their their footprints and after
following it for so long and not not being able
to find it, assumed, well, maybe they're feet are facing backwards,
so that's why we can't catch them.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Oh yeah, yeah, your guess as good as mine of
course on that. But it's an odd thing to explain
a worldwide prevalence of that strange mythological quirk. Absolutely, it
might be like yugien in nature or something. Who knows,
who knows what's going on now? Of course you're you're
you work in the law profession, of course, and which

(52:38):
has got to be pretty pretty stressful and pretty time
intensive and all this other stuff. It sounds like you
have yourself another avenue of research that is a lot
more fun ahead of you being a Spanish speaker yourself
and having a wide open field for you to play on,
because very I'm not really aware of anybody outside of

(52:59):
doctor David or who's who's really done an in depth
study of these kinds of things in the Spanish speaking world.
It's wide open for you, and so allow me to
put a little pressure on you, or perhaps encouragement would
be it might be a better way to say it.
I think the Bigfoot world is hungry for this kind
of thing, for you know, Bigfoot in Latin America, you know,

(53:23):
in in Central America and South America and of course Mexico.
It's too because there's got to be this rich history,
whether you're talking about the folklore that came before or
the sighting reports that are probably still going on. And
where could this take us? You know, how cool would
that be? So do you have any interest in doing
something like that? I think that would be fantastic.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
Somebody needs to absolutely Again, going back to that book,
someone was interviewed and they were asked, like, so, what
happened to the to the cub is what happened to
them in this in this part of Mohaka. And they
said that when the railroads were first constructed back in
the nineteen forties, that they the workers, the people, they

(54:07):
had encounters with the selvas and that they had to
use their rifles to basically wipe them out. So like,
there's I'd love to know what actually happened back then,
if anyone in living memory recalls such stories, if anyone

(54:27):
knows basically like an entire universe of interactions that we
haven't been privy to in the English speaking world.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Yeah, that's the whole thing. We don't know about this
stuff that is probably still going on because no one's
writing books. It kind of goes back to you know
how Sasquatch is very often associated with the Pacific Northwest
and people ask me that, Well, if they're in Tennessee
and Kentucky and Florida and Michigan, you know, why is
it just the Pacific Northwest It gets all the credit.
And it's because all the early researchers lived here. You know.

(55:00):
It's very often it's like the victors of the war
get to write the history essentially. You know, when people
write about it, it becomes known in various ways, and
no one's really written about this subject in such a
way that I feel it deserves. And I know that
Kathy Strain's done a little bit of ethnography work, I think,
and not maybe not going there, but kind of digging

(55:22):
up different names and else of Aje is one of them,
and various other names for these kinds of critters through
folklore and native accounts, because that's her specialties, the native
side of things there. But being an anthropologist. But to
get boots on the ground in some of these places
and actually speak to witnesses or or what about physical

(55:42):
evidence like casts or even photographs of footprints or the
animals themselves or anything like that. Are youware of anything
at all that exists?

Speaker 2 (55:50):
I am not, and I don't. Yeah. I think the
sasquatching down in south of the border is not quite
there yet. I feel like it's and it's in its
infancy really. I think Jane Goodall once went down to
South America and asked, I think in the Jungles of Ecuador,

(56:12):
like some of the local hunters if they've ever encountered
bipedal hairless not hairless tailless monkeys, And she got through
reports like fairly fairly quickly. So yeah, I think right
now it's mostly just sightings and encounters. But if we're

(56:32):
able to put boots on the ground, then I think
that'll change really quickly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
And of course it's a language barrier, because you know,
hearing that of states, the predominant language is still English,
you know, and you know that's what's stopped me from
like farming, like say, the Spanish speaking cultures. Like my comprehension,
isn't that good? You know, I have a hard time
understanding native speakers because they speak so quickly and in

(56:58):
a subject like sask and when you're taking a citing report,
the subtleties in language often matter. And yeah, I've spoken
to a few witnesses in my broken Spanish and whatever else,
and I was thankful for what I got. But to
do a proper job on the collection of that kind
of data, whether it's folkloric data or eyewitness reports or

(57:19):
anything else, you kind of need to be a native
or near native speaker, I would think at least.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
Yeah, and I think I'm up for it.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
Oh my god, I sincerely hope you do it. And
of course, if there's anything I can do to help
you along the way. You have my email address by
all means, use it, use it, use it so well.
You know, we're coming to the end of the of
the podcast here, anything else you want to mention, anything
else you forgot before we give a little bit more
love to your book here for everybody.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
I would like to discuss at least two laws that
were passed after the book was in the publishing process,
if that's possible.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Of course. Yeah, so you have to do a second edition.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Now, oh, absolute, what do you got for me?

Speaker 1 (58:02):
I'd love to hear about it. Hopefully I'm not aware
of these things.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
I think you might be aware of this. In August
of twenty twenty three, Marion County, Texas, they passed the
law at the behest of one Craig wool Heater.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Oh yeah, yeah, sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
He was able to convince the county commissioners to pass
this law and it was signed by Judge Leeward Lafleur,
and that was in August of twenty twenty three. So again,
it's just it's a resolution, but a resolution is a proclamation,
and proclamations matter.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
Okay, you know what, now that Craig wool Heater has surfaced,
I'm not really on social media so much, but I
did hear that he took a pretty bad tumble, and
I think that there is a kickstarter for him, like
helping him out with them meeting some expenses there until
he can get back on his feet. I don't know
much about it, but I heard something about it. I
haven't looked it up yet. So Matt Prode, if you
want to put a link to that, maybe, if you

(59:00):
have an extra dollar or two, throw it at Craye
wole Heater. I think he can probably use it right
about now. And what was the second law that you
wanted to mention here Tennessee?

Speaker 2 (59:08):
The Keem Trail law that they passed. It's odd that
they really were able to get that law passed in
the first place, and even crazier that someone amended it
to include a protecting Sasquatches. And Yeti's from Keem Trails.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
So that's how that sounds like it has Tim Burchett's
handprints on it, does it.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
I'm not sure. I think that was the That was
the state Senate and status said, Wow, this is an
actual law, it's enforceable, it's it's on the books.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
Yeah. Of course, our good friend Tim Burchett, who's in
the House of Representatives, he was the mayor of Knox
County when finding Bigfoot went to Knoxville, Tennessee. He made
Bigfoot days like he did a lot for the Bigfoot world.
And of course he's also kind of a spearheading a
lot of this uap ufo stuff that's going on right now.

(01:00:00):
He's all over this stuff. I suspect that Tim had
had some force behind that, so put some wind in
those sales there, so that those are not in the book,
though those are be added to a second edition at
some later point.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Yeah, Tennessee is becoming very very bigfoot friendly. You know,
grounds there with great researchers like like Matt Proue living there,
and of course Tim Burchett and the house representatives in
the UAP all all the weird stuff. He gets teased
by his his counterparts about the bigfoot thing, but you know,
he's cool. He's cool, and there's nothing wrong with looking

(01:00:36):
in the Bigfoot and enjoying yourself and subjects that are
a little bit outside the norm.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
In my opinion, absolutely, I think right now, the the
West coast is largely because of Washington. They're leading the
charge when it comes to sasquatch legislation, and the East coast,
thanks to New York, is leading the charge in terms
of lake monster legislation. So I'm interested to see what

(01:01:00):
the center of the country has to has to bring
to the table.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Yeah, where are you Midwest? Come on, let's do something
about this. Ohio. We know there's bigfoots in Ohio thanks
to the great tomm Yammeron and the song, But like,
what are you gonna do about it. Well, very good,
very good. So Monster Law is a fantastic book. I mean,
I really like it. It's it's super easy to read.

(01:01:24):
It goes straight to the straight to the point. It
has the actual transcripts, It has photographs of the actual
pieces of paper that talk about these laws. You know
that the actual I'm not sure the term for it,
but it is a great book. It is a great
Christmas gift. And it is available all over the place.
I mean I looked it up before I came on,

(01:01:45):
before I push record here. It's on Amazon and all
that stuff. Of course, you can get it directly from
Hanger one Publishing or you know, personal plug here. You
can also get it in the North American Bigfoot Center bookstore,
so online store. You can order it from there. Commend
everybody gets it there. So what's next, man, You ever
get into the woods or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
I'm about to know you go hiking. But now with
this extra time, I'm going all in. Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Nice that you live in New York City or just
New York State.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
I was born in New York City. I went up
to Albany for law school and I'm still there. It's
roughly about a forty minute drive from Whitehall, so I
think I know where I'm going next.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
Fantastic, And you know I will be on that side
of the country come September September October, one of those two.
They're doing some big foot conference thing out in New York.
I don't have all the details on, but I know
I said yes to it, so I will be there
as on your side of the country. So if you
can come out, i'd love to meet you in person.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
Oh that's exciting. I'd love to see Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Yeah, And I'm sure I'll be talking about on the
podcast when I get more information, and there's a website
and all this sort of stuff. But I know what's happening.
I think doctor Meldrem and I are on the docket.
So there's two reasons to either come or stay away,
depending on how you feel about me and doctor Jeff.
So all right, Francisco, thank you very very much for
your knowledge, your interest, your Spanish speaking abilities, bringing those

(01:03:12):
rare tidbits to the podcast, and your time. I really
really do appreciate it. I'm sorry Bobo and Matt couldn't
have been here. They would have loved this conversation, So
thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Thank you cluch.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
All right, hey, everybody. Next week we're gonna have everybody
back together. I believe the team will be back, all
of us, Bobo and Matt. So thank you very much
for listening. Do appreciate it, and until next week, keep
it Squatchy. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of
Bigfoot and Beyond. If you liked what you heard, please

(01:03:44):
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