Ep. 329 - 'Squatchy Subjects Seldom Spoken!

Cliff Barackman, James "Bobo" Fay, and Matt Pruitt go above and beyond to discuss a listener-suggested topic: aspects of the sasquatch phenomenon that are rarely talked about! Links mentioned: Interview with Glen Thomas (via The Sasquatch Archives), Cryptozoological Reference Library, Relict Hominoid Inquiry, and Clobo's Book Recommendation List! 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
These guys, are you fav It's so like say subscribe
and rage.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
It five star sho and me.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Rights on us today listening. Oh watchie Limb always keep
it's watching.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
And now your hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo fay.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hey, Big Food and Beyond folks, welcome. Bobo and I
are sitting across the table from one another here in
lovely Sandy, Oregon, where Bobo is blown through town for
a moment. He showed up on my doorstep like a
lost puppy about ten o'clock last night. I welcomed him in.
I put a blanket on him, got him out of
the cold wet rain, fed him. Actually, none of this
is true, except for he showed up at.

Speaker 5 (00:50):
Ten I had I had my own blue blanket.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
By the way, Oh yeah, he was ranting about your
blue blanky for a while. You mentioned it like legitimately
two or three times. And I I've known Bobo a
long time, but I don't know what the blue blanky
is about.

Speaker 6 (01:03):
Tell me about it.

Speaker 5 (01:04):
It's a comfort thing.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
It's a comfort thing. Well, when did you first get
the blue blanky? Like twenty thirty years ago, thirty years ago.
A lot of DNA on that thing. Oh no, who
gave it to you?

Speaker 7 (01:18):
I just bought a store for like eight bucks back
then or something like that.

Speaker 5 (01:21):
It's cheap.

Speaker 7 (01:23):
When it's hot out, like you know, like getting down
in the low sixties or something, it's and I don't
want to lay out just wearing like a T shirt
or whatever.

Speaker 5 (01:31):
I just put that on it. It's perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Nice and now now it's a comfort blanky. Yeah, binkie,
shall we say similars binky?

Speaker 5 (01:38):
But functional as well?

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Oh yeah, I think most binkies are rather functional. That
could be wrong about that.

Speaker 7 (01:44):
I kind of think of it kind of like my
Hobbit cape when those guys go on the journey.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh right, right, guests from Laurion, Right, Lady Gladryl gave
those to the Hobbits.

Speaker 5 (01:52):
Of course, I kind of always imagine that is mine.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
That's what that was.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, you're passing through town. It's to have you at
the house.

Speaker 6 (02:02):
But let me know what I can do for you.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
And of course Matt, Matt's out there in Tennessee. We're
missing out. You should be here, man.

Speaker 5 (02:07):
Yeah, it's beautiful, it's nice.

Speaker 7 (02:08):
And kind of cloudy and not too hot, not too cold,
just just perfect.

Speaker 5 (02:13):
It's like the Little Bear's porridge, right.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
I wish it's been over four years since all of
us have been together, so it would be nice. Usually
it's just Bobo and Cliff, or me and Cliff. I
haven't seen Bobo in four years.

Speaker 5 (02:25):
We got to rectify that pruite.

Speaker 7 (02:26):
Yeah, I was thinking the next time I come out here,
I think we should just fly you out one of
these times if I know it here on a certain date,
and then just get a cheap ahead of time ticket
and you come out and do it live.

Speaker 5 (02:37):
We've knock got a few of them. Let's do it.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Well, we're all here, Well, most of us are here
in person except for you, prut. What do we want
to talk about today?

Speaker 4 (02:47):
Well, we've done a couple of deep dives on listeners
suggested topics. Sometimes people submit questions for the Q and
a's that are like there's no short answer for and
they really deserve a full discussion, And so we did
a couple of those recently that we affect referred to
as above and beyond Bigfoot and beyond discussions, And so
we had a few of those to choose from. There
was one that we had actually teased in a previous

(03:09):
episode from one of our members, Darene Myers, who had
asked us what aspects of the sasquatch subject we were
really interested in but we never get to talk about,
you know, like when we go on other podcasts or
we do sasquatch related interviews. As you guys know, everyone
always asks like where are the bones.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
And how many do you think there are? And what
do you think they eat? That kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (03:30):
But I thought it would be fun to talk about
the things that we're hyper interested in but no one
ever asks about.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
And wasn't the opposite of that some sort of complementary
sort of question, like what do we hate being asked?

Speaker 5 (03:42):
Was?

Speaker 6 (03:42):
It?

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Wasn't that part of it as well?

Speaker 4 (03:44):
Yeah, originally someone had asked something along those lines, and
so like our least favorite interview questions, and so it
was after that discussion, I think that Doreen sent in
this question of like, well, what do you wish you
could discuss in these interviews?

Speaker 2 (03:55):
So well, you know, I actually have a new least
favorite review question, and that question is will you do
an interview with my podcast? It's been too much lately,
so anyway, Yeah, it's that's just me being cynical or whatever.

Speaker 6 (04:13):
But I don't know.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
I mean, you want to start with that boba, like
what is your what is the thing that you would
want to talk about that you're almost ever asked about?

Speaker 7 (04:23):
I see, Well, it's not like a big thing in
my mind. But one thing I'm interested in is what
I don't think anyone knows is like what their mating
habits are, like Hollyday, decide who goes with who, that
sort of thing, you know, how do they how do
they separate the studs from the not so steadily? What
the women find they get breeding stock, and what the

(04:43):
males do. Is if there's humanists a lot of people
think they are. You know, does personality have anything to
do with it? Or is it just size? Is it
just who's the biggest brood? Or is it you know,
this guy's a little casanova and he's got some tricks,
like he might be able to slip in and get
like you know, go to like behind some donut shop
and get some donuts and bringing back and we're with that.

Speaker 5 (05:03):
Or is it just the big stud.

Speaker 7 (05:05):
Guy that can just knock out any of others male
sasquatch that comes around the female he wants or females.

Speaker 5 (05:11):
You know, I'd be religion to know that kind of stuff.

Speaker 6 (05:14):
You know what.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
I'd have to wonder as far as like a courtship
or something like that, if if that's the right word
for it, I don't really know, I would wonder. And
just because sasquatches, you know, there's some sort of ape species,
but so are we.

Speaker 6 (05:26):
It's not a big deal.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
We can learn a lot about apes in general by
looking at ourselves because we exhibit a lot of the
same behaviors. We have common ancestors, and a lot of
those behaviors are our behaviors but masked in other ways,
you know. And one of the things about humans that
is reflected I believe in sasquatches to some degree in
some circumstances is gift giving. You kind of have to wonder,

(05:49):
do you know, if if I give Melissa flowers, you
know it it makes her smile and that kind of thing,
and you know it helps our bond, et cetera. So
you kind of have to wonder if sasquatches are kind
of up to same thing, you know, because they seem
to have some sort of gift giving capacity, you know,
to some degrees, although to be fair, their gifts kind
of are terrible. You know, there are pieces of trash

(06:11):
or torn up nerve footballs or something like that, something
that I could personally never get away with Melissa, But
you kind of have to wonder if there's anything going
on in that regard and thinking about it, there might
even be other parallels and ape species that I'm not
thinking of right now.

Speaker 4 (06:27):
Well, like Bobo and mentioned in many of the other
ape species, it is the females are indiscriminate maters, and
so it's based on the dominant male. The dominant male
will you know, outcompete or run off the sub adults
or the males that are lower in the hierarchy, smaller,
et cetera, et cetera. Now, where that really applies that
we see the most often would be in large social

(06:49):
groups like chimpanzees and gorillas are organized into, whereas sasquatches
don't seem to have large social groups. You know, they
don't live in big groups with multiple males and multiple
females all sharing space and moving cooperating together. They seem
to live more like orangutans, and so I think that
model would make a lot more sense. Their social model
is I think it's pronounced nyaw or nu yal, but

(07:11):
it's spelled nyau.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
That particular sort of social structure, which.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
Is a lot more about maintaining and defending a given
territory than it is about maintaining or defending a harem. So,
you know, a male roam's a particular piece of real estate,
and females that occur within that real estate or wander
into that real estate.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know, as long as the.

Speaker 4 (07:32):
Male wards off other males, gets essentially the mating rights
for any females within that territory. And I would assume
that sasquatches are pretty similar just given the distribution of
sightings and the distribution of footprint finds, etc. I think
that makes a lot more sense than some of these
other more complex things that occur in large social groups.

Speaker 5 (07:53):
Yeah, I agree with you.

Speaker 7 (07:54):
There one thing that surprised you we've learned about orangutans
the last couple of years is how the.

Speaker 5 (08:00):
Big males are. Like I didn't realize how.

Speaker 7 (08:02):
Brutal they could be, Like, like what like maaming each
other and killing smaller ones? Do you know proved once
do you know to deal with that when they kill
as smallest, like it's not their ostream they kill it,
or is it just any other male that comes in
their territory, Like I was reading reports of them even
killing females.

Speaker 5 (08:20):
That I don't know.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
I'm not super familiar with that aspect of a ranguetam behavior,
you know, what occurs in a lot of other analogous mammals.
So perhaps that's the case. But usually, you know, they'll
generate those big loud, you know, the long calls, and
that's to both you know, ward off potential competitors, competitive males,
and to let females know that like, hey, there's a
big stud in the area, so to speak, so much

(08:43):
like a bobo's howl that wards off males and alerts
potential baits to his presence. But I'm not super familiar
with like violence that they may or may not exhibit,
So I'll have to look into that aspect of a
range hands we know.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
I think all these things that we're bringing up right
now that have kind of wandered away from the initial subject,
it can be fit under the umbrella of social behavior.
And I think that that's something that the Bigfoot community
doesn't look hard enough at just because they're there. Seems
like so many people are focused on, you know, are
they real or they've got to be real because so

(09:23):
many people talk about them or say they see them
or encounter them or you know, all those people can't
be lying. Yes, So what I'll go back. I said
this in my presentation a few weeks ago in Ohio.
If you're still if you're still wondering if they're real,
you're behind the learning curve. And in my opinion, they're
They're in my opinion, clearly real and and and the

(09:46):
evidence strongly supports that. You know, So now the question
is not if they are, but how they are? What
do they do? Where do they go, why do they
want to go there? What's their their motivation and doing
certain things? And I don't I don't see the robust
discussion that I would hope for in the Bigfoot community
about that topic, because that's what I that's what I

(10:09):
find most interesting about the whole thing is what they're doing.
I Mean, there's hundreds of them in organ right now
at this very minute, and they're all doing something. What
are those things they're doing? When people bring up the
Patterson Gimlin film. Yeah, sure, it's great.

Speaker 5 (10:23):
You know.

Speaker 6 (10:23):
I love it too.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Don't get me wrong, I don't seem to be quite
as hung up on it as everybody else seems to be.

Speaker 6 (10:28):
But I think.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
For me the reason is the most interesting thing about
the Patterson Gimlin film is what that creature was doing
an hour before she was filmed. By far the most
interesting thing it would be that. And I just don't
see the robust discussion that I would hope for in
the community about that. They're too hung up on are
they real or are they not? It's like such a binary,

(10:52):
you know, on off zero one sort of discussion where
you have all this fertile middle ground of like, well, okay, well,
if they are real, let's just I mean, if you're
still on that fence, then okay, sit there. But if
they if they are real, what would they do? Where
would they go to stay out of the way of humans?
What kind of behaviors would they exhibit in order to

(11:14):
be successful right on the outskirts of society? Like those
are the interesting questions, and those, to me also are
the questions that can actually get us somewhere.

Speaker 6 (11:23):
They can help the researcher.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Remember a few weeks ago, I commented about the question
I always ask when somebody brings me something, and that
question is, now, what, well, all of these ideas, you know,
how do they do this, where do they go? What
kind of foods are they exploiting? How do they get
so many calories? To how facetes are metaboligy all that
kind of stuff is now we have something to work with.

(11:45):
So what can you do with that? And how will
that help us encounter them, see them, film them, document them,
et cetera. I wish more people spoke about that, honestly.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
I feel you there.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
But then we have the dual problem is that you know,
there's not enough people asking that question and posing it
as a question because it is an open question. So
you have a certain set of the audience who's not
asking that question, and another set of the commentator community
not asking that question because they already have all the answers.

(12:16):
You know, all is in you know, air quotes in
terms of like they know everything they do in every
single one of their habits, and you know, they've extrapolated
everything about the Sasquatch lifestyle from birth to death, and
you know, it gets so outlandish and preposterous, and you know,
I think that's as equally big a problem. I mean,

(12:38):
one of the things that I had thought about aspects
of the subject is the negative effects of over enthusiasm,
and that, to me would be one of them. It's like,
which is worse, the skeptical or cynical take that there
are no sasquatches i e. That they don't exist, i e.
That they're nowhere, or the over enthusiastic shouting from the

(13:00):
rooftops that they're everywhere.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
You know, they're seemingly equally bad. But I actually think
the latter is worse.

Speaker 4 (13:08):
I think the people that the overly enthusiastic, the people
who make too many claims in terms of absolutes that
you know that we get confronted with all the time. Oh,
I've seen them hundreds of times. I know where they are.
I can take you exactly to where they are, you know,
if you're worthy. You know, those sort of claims have
been around for a long time, but obviously they've gotten

(13:28):
more and more prevalent in the social media age. And
it's things like that with nothing to show for it,
no physical evidence, and no understanding of the analyzes of
existing physical evidence or the history. I think that drives
the skeptics and cynics further and further into their positions that, yeah,
they must not really be anywhere, because these people think
they're everywhere. And so I agree with you that not

(13:52):
enough people are asking the right questions, but they're also
being bombarded by people who think they have all the answers.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
And that's part of why. Know, Unfortunately, well.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
The folks that think they have all the answers, there's
probably some motivations for that, and some which I understand. Actually,
I can be kind of forgiving for some of that,
and not the ones that are you know, the look
at me crowds. You know, I'm not very forgiving about
those sort of folks because I've had a touch of
fame and I know what nonsense it is, and I
think it's ridiculous who would want that, honestly? But how

(14:26):
should I say this? I guess a good way to
say it is, I remember when I was young and
I knew everything too. You know, It's just as simple
as that. It's a matter of maturity for a lot
of people. You know, some people they're just hucksters or
their attention seekers, or they have some sort of narcissism
to deal with or or any number of things. You know,

(14:46):
they didn't get enough hugs from mom or dad when
they're growing up, and they did it. They're looking for
something else from the community in general, and they want
the attention. They want money or something, they want fame,
they want something, you know, and they're going for it,
and they don't realize that what they want probably isn't
what they're actually going for. But the other side of
that is, yeah, I was a young Bigfoot enthusiast, probably

(15:07):
to enthusiastic, honestly, like some level of addiction was probably involved.
I would imagine some sort of like I don't know,
social or mental like mental addiction, I guess to this Bigfoot.

Speaker 6 (15:19):
Thing, you know.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
And again I remember when I was in my twenties
or something like that, and I knew everything too. But
that's just a matter of maturity and growing older and
slowing down and realizing that I, you know, you just
don't stay tuned for more Bigfoot and beyond with Cliff
and Bobo will be right back after these messages. Hey, Boba,

(15:46):
whatever happened to your gone squatch and hat used to wear?
And finding Bigfoot now?

Speaker 5 (15:49):
I don't have that hat anymore.

Speaker 7 (15:50):
I gave it to Lauren Coleman for his museum, but
I might be asking for it back because I'm getting
a little nervous in summertime, getting too much sow in
the scalp up there now, and I'm getting bip y mosquitoes.
There's not a big lush crop to fend them off.
It's as hell bobs.

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Speaker 2 (17:27):
I think I said it in Ohio last week. I
said very clearly, like I don't really know that much
about sasquatches. I have some ideas, I have some things
that I think are probably true, but I don't really
know that much at all about them.

Speaker 6 (17:40):
I just like to learn.

Speaker 5 (17:42):
Well.

Speaker 4 (17:42):
That to me is the difference between saying like, well,
they probably do this based on this massive repository of testimonies,
supported by some of the trace evidence, and from looking
at the lifestyles of other apes and other animals that
live similar lifestyles. So here's a reasonable inference that we

(18:02):
could make, or at least a starting point when we're
trying to build a model of what Sasquatches do with
regards to X, Y or c. That's just so different
than saying Sasquatches always do this, or they definitely do this,
or this is exactly how they That's a huge difference.

Speaker 7 (18:18):
That's where you kind of can incorporate for a little
more like a viewpoint is well, literally, we know about
the archaic, archaic, ancient hominin, you know, our ancestors, like
what we know about them, and which isn't a lot.
But when you mix set in with what we know
about modern day primates and like you know, the uncontacted
tribes and that sort of stuff, you get it.

Speaker 5 (18:39):
You get kind of a more rounded picture.

Speaker 4 (18:41):
Oh, I totally agree with that, and that to me
is the big difference between you know, us speculating, and
it's hopefully informed speculation based not only in the sasquatch data,
but in relevant related data versus the people that are
out there that will tell you you know, everything about
a sasquatch in terms of absolutes and what they always

(19:04):
do and what they never do, you know, these kind
of things like that absolute sort of speaking. There's a
lot of that, and I think there's a certain subset
of the audience that is drawn to those people and
believes them. And that's why that said, at least isn't
asking those questions, is because they've already heard from people
who have quote unquote all the answers. And then yeah,
I would differentiate that, I guess from the people who

(19:26):
are overly enthusiastic, you know, the people who go out
and have quote unquote activity. Every single time they're out,
they have encounters. You know, every bump in the night
is the sasquatch, Every broken twig is because a sasquatch
passed by. Every divot in the ground is a sasquatch.
Track airgo. They are everywhere, you know, every sasquatch report
is true, on and on and on.

Speaker 6 (19:47):
You know, along these same lines.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
As far as social behavior goes, I'm really interested in
I'm very interested actually in tracking individuals over time. And
I think that's also a neglected corner of the Bigfoot investigation.
Doctor Meldrum addressed it of course in his book to

(20:08):
some degree looking at the Bluff Creek evidence. But I
am super interested in that in general, because not only
does that give us insight to their social behavior, and again,
the only way you can do this is by tracking them. Essentially,
you can't see a sasquatch hardly ever, but you can
find their tracks if you know where and how to look,

(20:28):
and if you are become familiar with their tracks and
tracks in general, you can start looking at individuals over time,
and that gives us some sort of insight into the
social structure, that larger umbrella that we were just speaking
about a while ago. Like in one of my areas,
we have two individuals that are around a lot and
we're learning stuff all the time. There's a fourteen inch individual,

(20:49):
a twelve inch individual, and an occasionally a fifteen or
so inch individual. That's as far as the foot length goes,
and you can infer that's a female in an offspring,
and probably a male that drops by every once in a while.
You know, you're guessing. We don't know, but I think
that's a reasonable guess. We usually find the small one,
the twelve, We sometimes find the fourteen, and we almost

(21:13):
never find the fifteen.

Speaker 6 (21:14):
So what can we learn from that?

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Like you gather the data, you take a guess, make
a hypothesis and push forward that. I think that tells
us something about their family group.

Speaker 6 (21:24):
I think at.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Least but yet at another one of our locations, there's
an eight or ten inch foot, there's a fourteen, and
there's a seventeen, and we find all of them at
the same time, generally always in the same general area,
Like if we find one, we'll look around, we'll find
the others. Or well, that's not always true, but most
of the time we have all three of them in

(21:46):
the same general area if you look hard enough, in
that same general area might be like a quarter mile
apart or something like that. But I'm not saying they're
walking next to each other. But what does that tell us?
So we have two data sets there from two areas
with presumably three different sasquatches, what does that tell us
about sasquatches as a whole? Or are we barking up

(22:07):
the wrong tree in a way? And maybe I don't know.
I think you can say things as a whole for
sasquatches because you can do that for humans as well.
But when saying it about humans you always run into
problems because people are so weird and different from one another.
It's hard to say one thing about say Bobo, and
have that apply to Cliff or vice versa. Right, is

(22:27):
that the problem is that going to be a problem
with studying sasquatches so that the individuals in general, like
tracking individuals over time based on their footprints, which is
the only effective way to do so, is a much
neglected study area of sasquatchry in general. Again, very few
people pay attention to that at all. And I think

(22:49):
if you got if one got better at identifying footprints
and identifying individuals, I think a lot could be learned.
And I'm going to throw a little shade at the
early investigators about this, John Green, for example, And I
don't have much I'm not saying anything bad about John
Green right now, but this isn't a super positive thing.
John Green strongly thought that the fourteen inch individual was

(23:12):
different than the fourteen and a half and was different
than the fifteen inch individual in Bluff Creek. And that's ridiculous.
I mean, maybe there are more than one individual at
that same size foot but almost certainly those are all patty.
But he was an early investigator. He didn't have we're
standing on John's shoulders. John Green didn't stand on really
anybody's shoulders essentially, I mean, very few people came before him.

(23:34):
He knew a couple folks that helped him out along
the way. But the assumption that the fourteen, fourteen and
a half, and fifteen were different individuals, and that looks
silly to me. Those are almost certainly the same individual especially,
you know, if you had say eight foot prints and
they all fell into those three categories, there is a

(23:55):
very high probability that at least some of them are
the same individual. Fourteen and a half and fourteen, come on,
it's a half inch different. I have found up to
three four five inches in some case difference in footprint
lengths from known individuals. So again, looking at these individuals
and tracking them over time, it's going to teach us
a lot about the species in general. And I think

(24:18):
that once quote unquote discovery happens, that will be the
primary way of studying sasquatches in their natural habitat, doing
natural behavior.

Speaker 4 (24:28):
Yeah, that is one of the most I think neglected
aspects of the subject. A because sasquatches don't give us
very much information to work with, but b because this
community has a high turnover rate and people have a
very short memory. There's a short institutional memory, let's say
within sasquatchry, but the long term cases, whether that's you know,
an individual that owns a property that has repeated experiences

(24:51):
over a number of years, or the repeated occurrences of
recognizable individuals like you're describing. I mean, there was a
great section in Crets's book where he was talking about
repeated instances of individuals in the Blue Mountains that I
heard you speak about not too long ago on another
podcast in Depth, where you can almost piece together the

(25:11):
story of this small handful of individual Sasquatches in the
Blue Mountains over a number of years. That kind of
thing fascinates me to no end, and we have so
little of it, but it's definitely to me a neglected
area of focus from both ends, from the evidence analysis
side or from hearing from you know, reliable, credible, long

(25:33):
term witnesses or people who've had repeated experiences in a
given location with you know, a finite number of Sasquatch individuals.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
For sure.

Speaker 7 (25:42):
I think one thing we should look for is because
I've heard of probably half a dozen reports of.

Speaker 5 (25:48):
People saying that they see them, you know, take a dump.

Speaker 7 (25:51):
Somewhere and then white with a ball of grass or
like a smoothish pine come. It's not like you know
fully developed yet or like red cones or you know
that sort of thing. Especially if you find any suspected scat,
i'd look around for something they wiped with. I mean,
so I think that that's one thing. I don't think
people look for that at all. I think that'd be

(26:12):
something to keep an eye. I mean it'd be hard
to spot, but I think the bald grass.

Speaker 5 (26:17):
Would be the the easiest thing to see.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
Guiltiest charged I have never looked for.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
I can't see I've used any of those things either
in the woods. I might add, you haven't, No, not
to get too fecal about things, but no, no, I
have what have like pine cones, yeah, really red because
those are tiny, like.

Speaker 7 (26:37):
Just like I'm not sure what kind of pines s are,
but like they're like this bigger than they don't have
the barber sticking out.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Like no, you go barblous.

Speaker 5 (26:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (26:45):
And then I've used grasses. I've used skunk cabbage when
you're out there for a while. I mean, I don't
do that anymore because I don't I don't go out
long enough. I don't when I did something like that.
But uh, yeah, I used all those things when.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
You got to go you gotta go. I feel you.

Speaker 6 (27:01):
I feel you the.

Speaker 4 (27:02):
Picture that's emerging here for for potentially, if you're a
podcaster listening to our podcast, then you want to interview
Bobo what he's been waiting to be asked about his
sasquatch is humping and how they wipe their butts.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
Well, you know, to get back to the unless you
want to talk more about that. Don't you have anything
else to say?

Speaker 5 (27:20):
Ups? No, I was waiting for some infant from the listeners.

Speaker 7 (27:23):
If anyone has anything to say, send us a message.

Speaker 5 (27:28):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (27:28):
I think I'll plead the fifth or whatever it is
on that one.

Speaker 7 (27:31):
Guy I talked to you gout that had a ball
of grass, like two balls of grass with Scott wiped
on it. He collected him and he had them for
a long time.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah. See, that's exactly why I don't I don't publicly
show any interest in Scott, you know, because I want
to deal with that. And can you imagine the mail
I'd get at the museum, A lot of human fecal
matters in the museum, Like I'm going to show these guys. Yeah,
because I can think about your buddies and I don't
know I've got some friends too that would like it's like,
oh my god, looking for scats samples, I've got one

(28:01):
for them.

Speaker 5 (28:02):
Yeah, I'm not looking for it.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, it's like, oh, you know those poop in the
box colonoscopy tests that are send off somewhere. It's like
they're all gonna be sent to the museum or something like. Now,
I've got no interest in doing that. The only uh,
scats samples I'm interested in are the ones that I
see come out of the Sasquatch as I observe it.

Speaker 6 (28:22):
And that's it.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
That is it.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
You should be so lucky.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
I should.

Speaker 6 (28:28):
I agree, I should be that lucky someday.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 7 (28:44):
Glenn Thomas saw a young female deprecated to the stream
and then wipe her hand, wipe ers up with their
hands and then well, I guess wash the hand in
the water and then licked her hands clean after that
was not the case.

Speaker 6 (28:57):
Yeah, I remember the washing the hands in the water part,
but the rest.

Speaker 7 (29:00):
To his leg report, it didn't want Maybe we see
guerrillas do that.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, COPPRAI there you go, yeah, but Bend and Augle
was commented like a something like a very Semian gesture.

Speaker 6 (29:11):
I think it's his term or something.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
He said something to that effect in his book about
that when he addressed it, most people don't know that's
Glen Thomas stuff. When Thomas had three sightings, and so
that drew doubts from the early greats because who could
possibly be so lucky? He said, well, they're normal animals.
You could see more than once. Whether the house away,
I don't know. I don't know, but he lived around
here somewhere. I still have yet to meet someone who

(29:35):
knew him.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
It might be good to talk a bit about the
Glenn Thomas story, because we've referenced it in a couple episodes,
and you know, when we're having these conversations, I'm just
hanging out with my friends. But then when I was
editing it, I realized, like, oh, I wonder how many
people don't know who Glenn Thomas is or the significant
when we talk about the site and how the site
is still basically intact. So maybe you give him like

(29:57):
a rundown of that initial encounter.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, sure. It was October of nineteen sixty seven,
very fruitful month in Bigfoot lore obviously, but a few
weeks before the Patterson Gimlin film was shot and completely
separate people and all that other stuff. Glenn Thomas, what
was a lagger? At least a lager. He might have
been a road we're guided too, but I know he's
at least a lagger. And he was on a job

(30:21):
site in October of nineteen sixty seven up on Burnt
Granite Ridge in that general area in Mount Hood National Forest,
and he was walking up ro down the road for
whatever reason I can't remember why, maybe going back to
the rig or going to it, I don't really know,
going away from it, and he looked up on this
talus slope. A taialus slope is a kind of rocky

(30:42):
slope where the rocks are big. If the rocks are
very small, it's called a scree slope. So the word
is taylus ta l us. It means like big rocks,
like the size of your head or bigger. Essentially is
the gist. And it's at the top of this peak.
It's on the ridge. It's not really at the top
of the peaks on a ridge line. And he looked
up in there and Apparently he saw three sasquatches moving

(31:05):
rocks aside looking for something underneath, and they presumed it
was some sort of ground squirrel or something like that.
Although I've been to the site many times and I
think there are pikas. I think they're called There are
a lot of those there, and you know, unless you
know a new population came out and drove out the
old ones, they're probably pikahs. But anyway, back to the

(31:26):
original report, they said ground scrolls of some sort, and
basically the male was on one side, then the female
was next to her, and then a young one was
next to that, and the male would move these big
rocks aside to make these pits, looking for things, and
then every once in a while they'd find these hibernating
rodents of some sort and gobble them up. I think
he used the term like ate them like a hot dog.

(31:47):
If I remember correctly, I'd have to go back and
reread John Green's reports, but that's essentially it. And so
he saw these things digging these holes. These pits are
still there that the sasquatches presumably excavated, and eventually they
kind of clued in that he was watching and they
left the area. Essentially. That's the long and short of it.
But of course that lit a fire in Glenn Thomas,

(32:09):
as happens with many bigfoot folks, and he started spending
a lot of time looking for sasquatches, and his other
two sidings that he had in that general area are
less well documented. I don't know the dates or anything
like that. I'm not even sure where to find the dates.
I mean, maybe John Green recorded them somewhere. I'd have
to go back and look. But essentially he saw these

(32:30):
things two more times over the next maybe few years
or something. Sasquatch, as Bobo noted, was seen pooping defecating
in a river essentially, and then it wiped his belt
with its hands and then licked off its fingers and
kind of went about his business. What other stuff Glenn
Thomas did, I don't know. I have no idea, but gosh,

(32:50):
I mean, he was from Colton or Estacada or somewhere
around here. I would love to speak to offspring of
some sort.

Speaker 6 (32:58):
I would.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
I don't even have any information on when he died.
I'm sure he's dead by now, I would think, But
I don't have very much information on the man except
for what John Green wrote.

Speaker 5 (33:08):
Essentially, I wonder if that was the same female he was.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
I mean, how many females are in an area. It's
a very high likelihood, I would imagine, you know, because
I think all that stuff happened in that general area.
And this is also the same area, by the way,
that a lot of bigfoot step happens. You know, this
is above a place called Big Bottom. It's not just
a spinal tap song. It's an area, the swampy sort
of low lying area along Clacamus River that there are
been numerous reports out of Tarzan Springs is not far away.

(33:36):
And Tarzan Springs for our listeners, if you don't know,
I think we've talked about it a few times on
the podcast was named according to Joe B. Lart, who
tracked down some folks in the federal level who gave
him this story. He can read about it in his book,
The Bigfoot Highway book Oregon's Bigfoot Highway. I think it's
called Apparently he was told by some federal worker who
went back in the records for Joe that it was

(33:56):
named the nineteen twenties.

Speaker 5 (33:58):
I think, say.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, somewhere in there, and the surveyors who were in
the area, ran across like some sort of hermit or
you know, a prospector or somebody like that up at
Tarzan Springs who was quote unquote living with the apes unquote.

Speaker 5 (34:16):
Right.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
And of course at this time, you know, it was
kind of before television, and so the thing that everybody
spoke about in the media at that time were books,
oh the Lost Golden Age, and the big book at
the time was Tarzan of the Apes. Everybody was reading
Tarzan of the Apes, you know, one of the most
popular books ever at that time. And so I guess

(34:40):
the surveyors who stumbled across this gentleman who was living
with the apes in Mount Hood National Forest before it
was a national forest, they named it Tarzan Springs. So
the area is just full of history, full of citing reports.
I have found footprints in that general area before more
than once, actually several times. It's just a great area.

(35:03):
And that's the Glen Thomas gist right there. But you know,
if sasquatches were doing this, like digging through these taless
slopes and making these big pits, I mean you can
actually I plan to go there this weekend. Ugly enough,
it's funny you brought that up. I intend to go
to the Glen Thomas site this weekend. I've got some
folks coming into town and I'm taking them out for

(35:24):
a day at bigfooting, And I think that's a great
spot to go because I can't promise them a Bigfoot,
but I can promise to show them something that Bigfoot
supposedly did. So but if they if that was a
normal behavior for Sasquatches, we should be seeing these kind
of all over the place, and you really don't. And
a lot of the ones that you do find are
are thought to be like vision quest sites from local

(35:47):
native tribes and that sort of thing. So I kind
of wonder about that. I mean, did this particular family
group of Sasquatch develop a new way of foraging that
wasn't thought of before or is that unique to them,
because there's other tallest slopes in there and I've never
seen anything like that. But then again, to be fair,
I'm not really looking that hard for him, so maybe
there's more stuff out there to find.

Speaker 5 (36:06):
Found one.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, he brought me to that one that was
up kind of up by high rocks in a way
up in Mountain Hood National Forest.

Speaker 6 (36:14):
I've seen that one.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
So I mean again vision side or Sasquatch sign, I
don't know.

Speaker 7 (36:19):
You know, Jamie Jay was talking to a guy he
knows up in Washington and he's telling him he's keeps
you got to call to Elsbury's all. We got a
Glenn Thomas that there's like a hundred holes.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, I see at the Glenn Thomas site, there's more
than that that big hole.

Speaker 6 (36:33):
You always see.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Pictures of Bender and Auguler to Hinden or somebody standing
in the big hole. But there's a lot of other
holes there, and that's one of these things. And I
think that if we're going to differentiate, if Sasquatches are
actually responsible for some of these, I'm perhaps a way
to differentiate would be counting them. I mean something like
that would take a lot of work. You know, some
of these rocks way two three hundred pounds or more,

(36:56):
you know more in some cases is not an awful
big one that is in dangerous slipping back into the hole.
And last time I was there, it's been a few
years though, But.

Speaker 6 (37:05):
I imagine, I mean, i'd have to ask.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Some Native folks about this because I really don't know,
but maybe, like would they dig more than one if
they were out doing what they do in these places,
or it seems like a lot of work to day one,
let alone five or eight. But I think at the
Glenn Thomas site, I don't remember exactly, but I bet
you there's at least a dozen of them. And I

(37:28):
was told that further up the ridge line there's other
tailess slopes that have these things in them too, but
just not as dramatic as that really big, deep one.

Speaker 6 (37:37):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Maybe that maybe that would be a differentiator, but again
we're also looking at the data set. I think that's
the only example of that behavior being observed by that
sasquatch behavior or purported sasquatch behavior being observed by humans.

Speaker 6 (37:53):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Maybe maybe they don't do it at all, and he's
a liar.

Speaker 6 (37:55):
I have no idea.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
Well, it just could be the case.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
I mean, there's there's twice now that it's kind of
touched on idiosyncrasy and individuality. You're talking about it a
bit earlier, and then this brings it back to mind.
That is one of the things I had written down
is that when you're looking at animals that have long
developmental periods and especially animals that have really complex behaviors,
like a behavioral repertoire that's highly complex. That leads to

(38:21):
a lot of individualism because most of those behaviors are learned.
They're not innate, they're not extinctual, they're not like baked
in or inborn, and so you'll have so much variation
across individuals within a given species, like humans are a
great example of that. Tigers are a great example of that.
There's a number of great examples of that in the

(38:41):
natural world. And so what you're left with is like
individuals to the earlier point you had made about like,
you know, are we painting a picture of the sasquatch
as a species that's not directly applicable anywhere that I
made that exact point in my book. I'd said, like
you could create a highly act you're a general image
of the sasquatch, and yet never find a single individual

(39:04):
sasquatch that conforms to that image. Right, And so in
the case like this, it might be that all sasquatches
will forage for rodents, but depending on the environment and
their learned behaviors and you know, things they've become successful at,
and so they start repeating and it gets instantiated, almost
like a positive feedback loop. That like the general pictures

(39:25):
that they'll you know, search for, forage for and eat rodents,
but the specific picture is like, well, maybe this family
unit found a strategy to acquire rodents that's highly different
than an individual or a family unit would in the
Washutaws or in Appalachia. I mean, one of the interesting
things about Area X, where all that activity was concentrated
around the old cabin compound, you know, it was just

(39:47):
a draw for a lot of creatures. There was a
couple of like smaller open grassy areas there that were
like the only little open meadows in that whole valley.
Everything else is like thickly forested. It was a big
draw for deer and other browsing animals. I mean, there's
deer all over the valley, but they're easier to observe
and like reliably know that they're going to come through

(40:08):
and browse in these areas. But one thing that cabin
compound had in abundance was rodents. Because these are old,
you know, kind of wooden structures and a lot of
stuff laying around, you know, human stuff, and so there
was just all kinds of mice and rats and everything
that would make homes in there and live in there.
So we always wondered if that was a big part
of the reason why they hung around, is this abundance

(40:28):
of rodent food. And I know you've seen that in
your study areas where they seem to be really going
after rodents a lot. So I think that's the general image,
and if Glenn Thomas is telling the truth, and what
you're seeing there is specific, so it is applicable. But
you know, you might not say, like, well, all sasquatches will,
you know, lift rocks and create holes in their search

(40:49):
for rodents, but all sasquatches will search for rodents.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 5 (40:53):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah, absolutely. And I've certainly found other instances of them
moving things aside to see what delicious treats are living underneath,
mostly logs. I've observed logs in several different locations, but
I also see overturned rocks in a lot of these
locations as well. I just don't have any evidence sasquatches
were responsible for it, because that's also a known bare

(41:14):
behavior and it's just hard to differentiate there when they
don't leave anything behind. It's just hard to know who
did what right, But you know, if you're digging, if
you're pulling over a rock to see what might be
living in that hole underneath it, or something in a
tailor's slope, well you move it aside and there's another
rock there. It's not that big of a stretch that

(41:35):
they would learn that sort of behavior in those sorts
of environments, especially as you said, if they were successful
previously and they were going back to the area to
see what else might be edible in the area. And again,
I've been to the site probably a dozen times, and
I think every time I go, I see not only
one pika or whatever they are, but multiple. So those

(41:56):
areas must be just thick with food.

Speaker 4 (42:00):
Wish I could have seen that place the one time
that were The last time I was up in that
area with you, there was still snow block in the way.
I think we were there in like June, so the
valleys were pretty open, but some of those higher places
we couldn't get up into, which was a bummer because
I really want to see that place.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
So maybe the next visit will do that.

Speaker 6 (42:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Well, like I said, I'll be going this weekend, so
I'll probably take some pictures and stuff, And of course
that stacking is of interest as well, because that's one
of the notable things about the site that I neglected
to mention, is that the sasquatches are not only digging
the holes out of the Taili's slope, but they were
actually stacking the rocks on top of one another. And
some of these rocks were very, very large. I think

(42:38):
Hender and those Hennery Fahrenbach and those folks went to
the site and weighed some of the rocks and they
were well over two hundred pounds, as I mentioned, and
some of them are quite large, so that's probably four
hundred pounds in some cases. But those those rock stacks
are still there, and you know, sasquatches have noted, or
at least there's a trend, I guess, and the sighting
reports over the years that sas squatches seem to be

(43:01):
a little, i don't know it's right word, a little
neurotic in some ways about stacking things. There was a
report from the Bull Run Watershed that I got secondhand
about some guy who's grown marijuana illegally in there many
many years ago, and his crop was eaten and by
one of these things supposedly, and when he came back

(43:22):
to this, when the guy came back, he was chased
out of the area by this thing. The stalks of
the plants were all piled very fastidiously, you know, very
very neatly in piles. And I kind of hear that
sort of general theme a lot about sasquatches kind of
be in neat freaks in a way. So the stacking
of rocks lines up well with some other trends in

(43:43):
the sighting reports, at least to me.

Speaker 4 (43:45):
You know, that's another great example. I think that trend
of like orderliness. So yeah, you could say, generally speaking,
there's an orderliness. But then if you're looking at the
specific like, well do they always stack rocks? Well, no,
not all of them, not everywhere. And so I said,
I think that individuality plays a large part of why
they're still undiscovered. Is when you have something that's really

(44:07):
individualistic and very idiosyncratic, and you're chasing a specific individual,
it's like, well, at that point, it's very unpredictable. Even
if you have a good general image of the sasquatch's
lifestyle and behavior, that might not apply to any one individual.
I'd pulled a quote from Carl Jung, because he was
describing people as the same way that, like, you know,
we look at averages with humans, but humanity never produces

(44:30):
anything except for exceptions to the rule. People are so
individual and so different. And he'd used an analogy like,
you know, you could go to a rocky beach shore
and know that the average pebble on that beach weighs whatever,
you know, seventy five grams, And then you could weigh
every pebble on that beach for the rest of your
life and never find a single pebble that weighs seventy
five grams, you know. And I think a lot of

(44:53):
that does apply to Sasquatches because they must have long,
slow development periods, come plex behavioral repertoire, and a lot
of that must be learned, and so they must be
very individualistic and idiosyncratic for those reasons.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bogo will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 7 (45:20):
Another interesting thing people have reported from the I know,
from the Rockies and from Sierra Nevada's researchers say that
they're convinced that they build up like little piles of
rocks like they'll build a little like pyramid, like yeah,
like a car, like a pyramid of rocks, and then
the ground scrolls or whatever. Rodents will go in there
and nest in those rocks, and they come back when

(45:42):
they're hibernating and just pull them apart and pull them
out sleeping and just they got.

Speaker 5 (45:46):
A frozen snack. Are basically well, it's it's warm. It's
a warm snack.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
But you know something that's interesting. I think that something
I wrote down on my list as far as like
what I wish more people spoke about. We're doing it
right now, right now, and that is the early reports,
the early foundational literature. Because again we lament about this
all the time. We're a bunch of old men kneeling
at the kids to get off our grass. I totally
get it. But so many of the Bigfoot officionados nowadays,

(46:17):
they don't realize the people who laid the foundation for
what we all love. They don't realize the importance of
Green and Krantz in their ilk because they came in
with the Finding Bigfoot days or the Expedition Bigfoot or whatever,
you know, whatever flash in the pan thing is on
TV at the time. They don't understand all the work
that has been done beforehand. And I've seen grave mistakes

(46:38):
done by people who thought they perhaps discovered something, discovered
a trend, only to look in John Green's books and realize, oh,
this was done in the nineteen seventies or I don't know,
Matt even you said something about this recently, about the
color of the animals and real and thought, oh, no,

(46:59):
one's really talked about this, And sure enough Sanderson did,
like the literally the first book, the first book ever
written kind of in a way that talked about it.
So I think that, then again, I'm just an old man.
You'll let the kids to get off my grass. I
fully realize that, and I do it all the time.
But I think that the foundational literature, the early researchers,

(47:19):
the early reports are hugely important, especially now because if
you wanted to fake a sasquatch report, it would be
really easy to do.

Speaker 5 (47:29):
Now.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
You listen to a couple of podcasts, you read a book,
you go to the BFR site, and you know, average
those things out and spit it back, and someone's going
to believe you, because why not. The Sasquatches are real.
You can actually see them no big deal. But like
the best example of something I mentioned recently is like
these tree things that I've been discovering, not not trees structures,

(47:49):
but tree breaks. Turns out, John Green wrote about the
tree breaks literally in the very first bigfoot thing that
pretty much ever happened, and under the word big Ford
the least the Jerry Crew the Jerry Crew footprints. John
Green wrote in his book that he followed the tracks
of the Jerry Crew creature down the creek and up

(48:10):
the other slope. He lost the tracks and some rocky
train and then found trees broken. Three different trees broken
with the tops broken off and twisted around the lower trunk.
That's exactly what we find nowadays. And he didn't know
if sasquatch, that sasquatch was responsible for it, but they
were in the trackway that he was following, so it
could be inferred, I think. But going back to that,

(48:32):
the earliest reports you can find and looking for behaviors
and descriptions and that sort of stuff carries more weight
than a report that happened two weeks ago, because the
report that happened two weeks ago happened in the context
of a lot of people knowing a little bit about
sasquatch stuff. But you go back to nineteen fifty eight,

(48:53):
nineteen fifty nine, nobody knew anything, nobody knew squat about
squatch at that time. So the thing the next you know,
fifty years of reports supporting those behaviors is very telling
to me. So I think that the early reports and
the early literature is even more valuable now than perhaps

(49:14):
it was thirty forty fifty years ago.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
Oh, I agree with that.

Speaker 4 (49:19):
I do think it's really important not only to read
that early literature, but to reread it often. And you
know the example you brought up that I mentioned with
Wes about Sanderson. You know, there's a handful of books
that I reread every year and every single time, and
some of them, you know, I've read for twenty plus
years now, and every single time I see something new
in there that didn't like shine forth in the previous

(49:41):
you know, fifteen readings or ten readings or whatever. And
that's I always say, like, the information doesn't change, but
you change, and what you're looking for changes, and what
stands out to you and what resonates with something new
you've learned, all those things change, and so it's definitely
worth getting really familiar with that stuff and then revisiting
it often because new things will appear that were there

(50:03):
all along, but they just weren't relevant to you at
the time, so they didn't really stick out in your
perception as you were reading it. So all those things
are very very important.

Speaker 3 (50:13):
You know.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
It's funny, like you mentioned the validity of older sasquatch reports.
One of the things that frustrates me so much with
some of these podcasts I listen to or YouTube channels
is that you can tell like, at least for me
in my opinion, which could be very wrong, But when
someone is feigning ignorance about the subject and they're fabricating

(50:35):
a story and they're weaving in every element of the
sasquatch phenomenon, and I've heard people say things like, you know,
more than once, more than one person say things like,
and you know, I have to it run off. I
went and looked at its tracks, and I mean, this
is going to sound weird, but the tracks almost look
like the foot bends in the middle. Has anyone ever

(50:56):
said that before? Yeah, you're going to tell me that, Like,
it's so obvious that they're trying to make it sound
like they spontaneously saw a mid tarsal break and didn't
know what they were looking at. And people send me
that stuff and I'm like, look, man, I think that
person's lying. I think they're trying to include all these
elements that will make it seem more legitimate. And they'll

(51:18):
be like, oh, but he said he doesn't know anything
about the Sasquatch, And it's like, well, he found that podcast,
didn't he. Who's to say he hadn't been listening to
that podcast for five years before he decided to tell
his you know, quote unquote story. So those kind of
things are so frustrated. There's a lot of that out there.

Speaker 5 (51:34):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Well, I remember we were looking at that picture by
Lyle Labberty, taken at the Patterson Gimlin film site. I mean,
the whole community was looking since nineteen sixty seven, and
it was only in the year two thousand or something
like that that doctor Meldrum kind of let us in on, well,
what that actually what we're looking at. We didn't have
eyes to see, but it took somebody with an expertise
in primate foot anatomy to say, oh, that's that's evidence

(51:58):
the mid tarsal pressure. That's pressure ridge right there, and
the flexibility the mid part of the foot, and because
that's perfectly normal, all apes have that, you know, and
we're all looking at it forever. So this one random
witness that you mentioned or whatever, like coming to that
conclusion on his own, I doubt it. Yeah, And that's
just more evidence that modern day reports can easily be

(52:20):
tainted essentially by fabrication or whatever else. But those early reports,
I think again hold a little bit more value now
because of the prevalence of sasquatch information now on the
Internet and television and what it podcasts, everything like this one,
et cetera. Those early reports they had no they had
no information to go on.

Speaker 4 (52:41):
If you use the analogy of like you know, large
language models, they're sort of trying to approximate, you know,
some degree or some style of human learning, and you
have to you have to train them, you have to
give them information to build the model on. And so
that's I think a good analogy is like the testimony
today could represent humans that have been trained, you know,

(53:04):
by listening to many many many other sasquatch podcasts and
what many other claimants say and many TV shows, and
so from all of that information, you could train a
person to then generate a report that would have all
the hallmarks of something legitimate versus like what were people
in the eighteen hundreds being quote unquote trained on. You know,

(53:26):
they didn't even have the known apes to incorporate into
their models. And so when they observe things that are
consistent and things that are reflective of what we now
know to be actual ape behaviors and other trends, and well, yeah,
that's that's pretty compelling at the very least.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
Well, you know, let me throw this out because I
ran across some pretty shocking statistics this past week or so.
And again, always fact check me, always look at the numbers.
And you know, maybe I'm underestimating, maybe I'm overestimating. I
don't really know, but something on the turn, something on
the term of one out of five Americans today is
functionally illiterate. I mean, that's a sad truth, but it

(54:07):
seems to be the truth. So something like twenty give
or take a few percentage. Whether it's seventeen or twenty
three doesn't matter. Let's just say one out of five,
twenty percent of Americans today are functionally literate, and what
that essentially means is that they can't read directions well,
if at all, they would have trouble filling out forms
and all that sort of stuff. You know, it's a

(54:27):
real detriment. And I've known people in my life, very
intelligent people who were functionally literate. They just didn't have
the schooling. They didn't they had other issues. I speak
to Michael Freeman very frequently. His father was largely illiterate.
You know, I think he was very heavily dsyslexic based
on his writing styles and things like that. I've seen

(54:48):
a lot of his original writing and things like Michael
told me, if you ever saw my dad's signature, that's
almost certainly my mother's. Because dad didn't write, he didn't read.
I never knew him to read a book, although to
his credit, he was trying really hard to read better.
Towards the end of his life. He was trying to
read Bigfoot books and things like that, and he had
some struggle with it. He was getting better by the

(55:10):
time he died. But essentially he's functionally literate. So when
I when when when I bring up like people should
read the foundational texts, I have to at least put
it out there that, like I fully understand this, probably
you know, again, one out of five people in America,
maybe one out of five people listening to this very
podcast would be unable.

Speaker 6 (55:30):
To read that those posts.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Well, probably not this podcast, to be fair, but I'm
still there's there are some listeners, whether they're young or older,
and just didn't get the schooling they needed or had
some other stability that perhaps prohibited them. And so coming
around to my point here, and I'm going to ask
you Matt this or maybe you might know too, Boba,
but it feel like this is like in Matt's ball park.

(55:54):
How many of these foundational texts have an audio book
that's available?

Speaker 5 (56:01):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (56:01):
Man, yeah, unfortunately, like almost none of them. I do
think that Sanderson's book is available in an audiobook format
because a good buddy of mine, shout out to my
buddy Kevin in Colorado, one of my good friends, known
him for many many years, had texted me and he
was like, oh, I'm listening to Abominable Snowman Legend come
to life and the narrator has an epic English accent.

(56:23):
So at least that one's out there, But you know,
it really comes down to like, for example, I think
the author or the publisher has to initiate that process
for that project. So whoever owns Green's works, let's say
is Hancock House, would have to either send in a

(56:43):
manuscript that could be read.

Speaker 5 (56:45):
You know.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
Even I think Audible now has an AI reader where
you can you can apply and they can have an
AI voice read your text and that becomes the audiobook.
But you know, it's it's up to either the author
or whoever owns owns the work. So unfortunately, I you know,
whoever owns a lot of those works has just never
initiated that process to have those converted into audiobooks. And

(57:09):
that's that's they're missing out on a lot because I
do think people would would glean something from that, and
the audiobook process is not easy. I've been wrestling with
that for a while. But you know, I'm sure there's
other especially for authors that are deceased, why not use
the AI function, you know, because it's not like we
can get Green to read it because he's deceased.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
Or Krants, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 4 (57:31):
So there there are pathways to that now, but it
would be up to you know, whoever owns those books
to do it. But that is an unfortunate reality, is
that there's not a lot of other options, and not
all of those books are readily available to find and
get from let's say Amazon with two days shipping, you know,
because some of them are out of print, or some
of them are by small publishers who print stock first

(57:53):
and then list some of that stock online to be ordered,
and it becomes expensive, and there's expensive shipping. So there
is a bit of a barrier to entry on some
of those older books.

Speaker 5 (58:02):
You know.

Speaker 4 (58:03):
Some of them are easy to get and some of
them are not, which is very unfortunate, you know. To
your point about literacy, it is I laugh at myself
often because I often lament that, you know, people don't
read books anymore. And so the way I addressed it
was to write about it in a book.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Right, all right, stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond
with Cliff and Bobo will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
Well, you know, your.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
Book brings up another thorn on that rose. There is
that along with that statistic that I stumbled across about
approximately twenty percent of Americans are functionally illiterate, a little
over fifty I was told, and again, fact check me. Please.
Whatever the number is, you're going to find it horrifying.

(58:56):
About fifty percent of Americans read at fifth grade level
or below, so books like yours were, you know, are
going to be inaccessible to them in some ways. But also,
being a teacher, a former teacher at least, I know
that comprehension levels when you're listening are many years above

(59:16):
that which you read. You know you can understand a
story much higher than your reading level by listening to
it than reading it. So again, so to get the
foundational information that we all three here deem so important,
what are the options? I guess, as you mentioned, AI

(59:37):
can read a book to you, okay, that that's a
real solid, kind of brand new innovation that will help
a lot of people. I think with this this kind
of disability, I don't know if if it's appropriate or
correct even to say that illiteracy is some sort of disability,
But when you're trying to read a book, it is right.

Speaker 6 (59:55):
I don't know any way around that one.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
I don't want to handle with kids, gloves or anybody
getting mad at me about this. But if you want
to read a book and can't there's the issue, right,
So what can get you through that bump? Because I
imagine some of our listeners would think that doctor Meldrum's
book is too high above their head because these are
scientists and I don't know about science, and it's actually
pretty accessible.

Speaker 6 (01:00:18):
I think to most readers.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
But what other options might there be? So we have
the AI option. If you can get that text into
a computer, the AI can read it to you. Are
there other avenues or other resources available for people our
listeners who might want to access those foundational texts, or
at least ideas Todd Prescott's YouTube channel I think would

(01:00:41):
be one of them, because he has a lot of
the foundational people on video talking about things anything else
that I'm overlooking that might be able to help our
listeners who might struggle with this.

Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
I mean, anybody listening to this podcast is technologically literate,
you know, because they found the podcast. They're using us smartphone,
a tablet, a desktop, a laptop, something of that nature.
And so I think, you know, if they had a
book and they encountered a word that they weren't familiar with,
they could they could google it, you know, they could
search the definition of that word. I do think that

(01:01:13):
encountering things that you've never encountered before is very good
for people now in my book, like any term that
I used that I thought wasn't in common parlance or
something like that I define next to the word. But
other words that you know, I might not have defined. Well,
if you found my book because you heard me on
a podcast and you ordered it from Amazon, you have

(01:01:33):
a smartphone or a laptop or something, and people might
be encouraged to go, oh, let me look that up,
let me learn. Because that's one of the things that's
frustrated me over the years, whether it was like television
people or people in other literary avenues. When I was
talking to people about potentially being involved with this book,
they'd be like, Oh, you shouldn't use that word because
no one's ever heard it. I'm like, well, how do

(01:01:55):
you expect anyone to learn? Like you don't want to
publish something that only includes things that you already know
that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And I don't think
the audience feels that way. Everything I know is because
I encountered it at a time when I didn't know it,
you know what I mean. And so the books that
were way above my comprehension at first, like Krantz's book,
which is one of the first books I read, you know,

(01:02:17):
I read Krantz's book years before I took an anthropology class,
and or you know, like physical anatomy class. I mean
I knew some degree of obviously anatomy and basic sciences,
you know, coming from a family with all medical backgrounds
and having completed high school or whatever. But like I
learned because I encountered things. I'm like, I don't know
what that is, but I sure need to know if

(01:02:37):
I want to make it further in this book, and
maybe it's useful for me as a sasquatch researcher. So
I'm not a big fan of the idea that we
should avoid things because they might be new to people,
or to assume that well, no one's going to understand
this because they're just not smart enough.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
Like I just don't. I don't believe that at all.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
But it is I think to your point, it is
hard for newcomers because if they do step into the
sea of podcasts and YouTube, they're not all created equally
in terms of like their presentation of historical material or
commitment to presenting that material.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
Accurately.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
You know, a lot of it is straight out wrong.
I mean, some of them are bs, but like a
lot of the ones that from good people and stuff
are just inaccurate, you know, And anybody can be wrong,
of course, you know, but how's the guy supposed to.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
Know wildly inaccurate?

Speaker 4 (01:03:30):
But I would again, I don't think it's an erroneous
assumption to think that if you're listening to this on
your phone or your laptop desktop, you know that you
do have access to some of that foundational material online
via Amazon, you know, and I can put links to
some of that in the show notes. There's a great
repository of published papers that came from like Northwest Anthropological

(01:03:52):
Research Notes or the International Society of Cryptozoologies Journal, or
the Journal of Scientific Exploration, like a whole host of
different journals that are all cryptozoological articles that are all
in one place, alphabetical by author, and I'll link that
in the show notes. And so you can read a
lot of great papers by Green, Krantz, Bender, Nageld, Meldrum,

(01:04:12):
on and on and on. You know a number of
different people that made big contributions. So there's plenty of
free options online too. Or Meldrum's Relict Hominoid Inquiry, which
is a lot of that's going to be a lot
more technical than my book too, But at the very least,
even without spending a dollar, using the same smartphone or
computer that you're listening to this on, you can read

(01:04:34):
a bunch of really good material written by excellent researchers
who are definitely committed to the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
That's fantastic because you know, Bigfoot is for everybody, and
information is for everybody, and I'm a huge advocate for
access for all essentially when it comes to information and
that kind of stuff. So it's good to know that
there are resources for people, and you know, because again,
I think most of our listeners probably have these books
or have read most of them, or at least some
them at some point or another. But I'm thinking it

(01:05:02):
occurred to me this past week when I ran across
that startling statistic that maybe one out of five, as
much as one out of five people could not access
the information even if it was in their hands, and
then thinking, well, what do we do for those folks?
Because bigfoots for them too, and I want to make
sure that they have some sort of accessible avenue to
get these sort of information. So I'm glad we had

(01:05:22):
a chance to at least speak about that.

Speaker 4 (01:05:24):
Yeah, And I think for the average person listening to this,
they still have it pretty easy in terms of getting
that stuff because I started searching in the early two
thousands and you guys started much earlier than me, and
that like Bobo had the advantage of going to Humboldt State,
and so he's kind of like in a repository of
books in the epicenter of Bigfoot, you know, the history

(01:05:46):
of Bigfoot. But dude, how hard was it, Bobo back
in the day, pre Internet or pre Amazon to find
like five big Foot books that you wanted to read,
like one library or just in general, like, it was
so hard to find those.

Speaker 7 (01:05:59):
Book book Yeah, yeah, it was, it was, It was.

Speaker 5 (01:06:03):
It was tough.

Speaker 7 (01:06:03):
Yeah, And I still I laughed because a lot of times,
like well, Humboldt State, the only other person to check
out some of these books or like, you know, like
the stuff in the humbold room for local stuff was
was Danny Perez nineteen eighty one.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
Because I remember it took me years to find a
copy of Apes among us.

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
I think the first book.

Speaker 4 (01:06:24):
I read was Krantz and then once I remember getting
Lauren Coleman's Bigfoot The True Story of Apes in America,
like right when that was released, and I got Melton's
book right when it was released, and I don't think
I got a copy of Apes among Us until after
those two.

Speaker 7 (01:06:40):
Well, I was pretty lucky because I lived in La
County and La County Library system was pretty big, and
like you could put in a request they'd searched the
whole library system for they said it might take two
weeks or three weeks to get it. They they could
get you a lot of those. I looked for any
book with Bigfoot or Sasquatch in the titles, and they
were pretty good about getting those teop but it was

(01:07:01):
still it was hard to know what the title was
and you had to know the author. And if you
never saw the book before, you know, you might hear
someone talk about it, or I'd say, like if you
found two or three books in the library that I
had big Foot stas question, that was like a.

Speaker 5 (01:07:17):
Gold mine because that was rare.

Speaker 4 (01:07:20):
Yeah, And I think nowadays, like with the exceptions of
the ones that are out of print, if you went
to our book Recommendations episode just about every one of
those books you can find on Amazon. You might have
to get a used copy, but they're all on there
for the most part, which is like if we had
had that in the early days, like oh, you can
just get like one click and get this book, that'd

(01:07:41):
have been pretty nice, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:07:43):
Oh dude, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
All right, Well that's about it. Should we tie this
one up and head over to the member section for
a brand new topic of discussion?

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
We should because I know Bobo was just out in
the woods for a few days and we need to
hear how that went.

Speaker 5 (01:07:57):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 6 (01:07:58):
Absolutely.

Speaker 7 (01:07:59):
All right, folks, Well, thanks for joining us at Bigfoot
Beyond with shooting.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
May some of us. Yeah, so thanks for joining us.
We appreciate it. Hit like hicks, Share and check out
those books we mentioned. Their links are below those papers
and articles. You can read good stuff and let us
tell you think.

Speaker 7 (01:08:19):
All right, you all keep it squatched until next week.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
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At Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on
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(01:08:47):
and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag
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