Ep. 344 - The Tale of the Telltale Heel!

Cliff Barackman and Matt Pruitt discuss another gem from the Meldrum Archives regarding the 1967 Blue Creek Mountain tracks! The conversation delves into Ray Wallace's shenanigans, John Green's $100,000 challenge, Bob Timus' early track finds, and more! 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big Food and Beyond.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
With Cliff and Bobo. These guys are your favorites. So
like Shay, subscribe and rade it, I'm star and.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Me greatest con quesh today listening watching limb always keep
its watching. And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and James
Bobo Fay.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hey, everybody, welcome back to Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff
and Bobo and Matt. One third of us aren't here today.
That's Bobo. He is off doing other things that he
has a gig. Apparently he's I think today the day
Matt that he's gonna film something or whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
What did you say, Yeah, I kind of got the
impression that he was meeting up with the guy he
told us about who's living his life by the roll
of the Dice.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Oh yeah, I remember that.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
So I guess the Dice have spoken and Bobo is involved.
So we can't wait to see how that turns out. Yeah, yeah,
So he's off on another commitment today. But it's all right.
You have us, you have Cliff, and you have Matt,
and we have you. We really really appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
So today we're going to have a conversation about several
topics and several ideas. Matt, you want to start us
off in some direction.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
I'm always curious how I know listeners are too, since
we've started talking regularly about things that you're finding in
doctor Meldram's archives, you know, if there's anything new since
the last time we talked about that on the podcast
that really struck you or anything like that. So there's
plenty of cover even though we don't have our good
man Globo here. Isn't that right, Bolo.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
No Ler, Yeah, that's right. We do have robo Bobo.
He is always at our side like a trust see
pocket knife or a cold that won't go away. Yeah,
we always have robo Bobo right there with us. But
you know, we're recording this on December first, So Matt,
you have a good holiday and all that sort of stuff.
I assume.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Oh I had a great holiday. I got to see
you guys for cryptocon and I know we'll catch up
about that a little bit more in depth for the
members there. But thanks to all the listeners who came.
That was a great event as always. And I stayed
up in Kentucky Emily and I because her family's up there,
so just hung out for a week, drove over to
West Virginia for a day, and then had a great
Thanksgiving with her family. So it was fun, how about you?

Speaker 2 (02:10):
I was all right? Is right? Thanksgiving was awesome. I
worked my ass off after coming back from cryptocon to
try to get the members video done so I didn't
have to work on Thanksgiving. It didn't work. I actually
had to work on the first half of Thanksgiving, not
at the shop, but doing the video stuff for the
art museum members. But I did that so I didn't
have to work at all on Friday, which was my birthday.

(02:30):
So thank you very much for all the well wishes
and all the love and kindness and kind words and
all that sort of stuff that came my way on
that day. The birthday was successful. I indeed turned another
year old. And on top of that, it was extraordinarily
successful because I didn't leave my property once all day long,
and I avoided the computer, and I avoided all obligations

(02:52):
beyond just thanking people for you know, wishing me a
happy birthday. So a day not wasted is a wasted day,
and I wasted my birthday and know it was awesome
in the best way possible, So thank you. For all
the all the love and kindness and all that sort
of jazz too.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
I posted to all our social media's about your birthday.
We got tons of comments like it was awesome to
see so your your birthday in Bobo's birthday always get
the most engagement.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
That makes sense, you know, for a podcast that's called
you know, Big Going to Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
Yeah makes sense. There, Oh, it's just great. But it
would just you know, it's it's cool to see and
I love seeing that. It's just funny that, you know,
when we have an episode we're super excited about with
some guest or some eyewitness testimony or some you know,
a research or an academic whatever, you know, there might

(03:37):
be fifty comments. So it's it's you sometimes think like, oh,
a handful of people are paying attention. Then I'm like, hey,
it's cliffs birthday and there's like seven hundred comments. I'm like, well,
that's pretty cool. A lot of people are paying attention. Yeah, yeah,
it's very very nice. Well, everybody has a moment to
give some love, you know, and even a small thing
like type in happy birthday Cliff or something, it's good
for the soul. And it's good for me, of course,

(03:58):
to receive it, but I I think it's also really
good for people to give love no matter what it
looks like, you know, whether it's a happy birthday wish,
whether it's a hug, you know, whatever it is, there's
all sorts of ways to express love. And I guess
that's one good thing about Facebook, because everybody knows I'm
not a fan of Facebook and you know, social media
in general. But yeah, I guess. I guess it can

(04:19):
be used to spread a little bit of love every
once in a while. So I need to lighten my
tone perhaps a little bit, and focus on those things
as far as social media goes.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, on that point, because I also loathe Facebook. But
the one thing I enjoy about it is when I
log in and it tells me when people's birthdays are,
and I'm like, oh, I can just text that person,
you know, and I would not have known otherwise I
wouldn't have remembered or had it added to the calendar.
So thank you for that, Facebook, But you still got
a lot of work to do.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Oh yeah, tell me about it.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Were there any new discoveries as you're archiving this stuff
and catalog again and going through it. That stuck out
to you because we did make that kind of a
recurrent feature and so that has become a regular email
question is like, what's Cliff found now?

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Oh Man, Well, I mean, I'm at the end stages still.
I think I was at the end stages last week
as well, but I've only put in a few hours
down there this past week. But the thing that stuck
out to me this week is if I found a
series of emails back and forth between Chris Murphy and
John Green, and I'm not sure where I come down
on it. I know where you come down on it.

(05:22):
We can talk about that, but the discussion going back,
it's kind of a heated discussion. Honestly, John Green seems
a little heated in the emails. Yesterday, the day before
or something like that. I ran across a printed up email.
It was two John Green from Christopher Murphy and basically
it was an exchange of emails. And this was in

(05:44):
two thousand and nine. It looks like December two thousand
and nine, and it started with an email from Chris Murphy,
who's still alive by the way, he's up in Canada.
And the discussion is about the Blue Creek Mountain tracks.
You see if you look at the book Meet the Sassquatch,
Know the Sasquatch, Know the Sasquatch, which is the second
edition of Meet the Sasquatch. These are fantastic books. By

(06:08):
the way, if you don't have these, you really should
get them. I mean you have a copy of them, right, Matt, Oh, certainly, Yeah,
I think every maybe most people do. Most people do
because they're just so fantastic. They're like a really really
nice coffee table book. They are full of excellent information
as well as full color pictures. There's a lot of
reason to get these books. They're absolutely fantastic. And rumor

(06:29):
has it a third edition is going to be out soon,
probably in early twenty twenty six, so they're updating a
lot of things in there. So im I'll buy a
couple of those too. I've got a looking on my
bookshelf right now. I probably have between the first and
second edition. I probably have five copies something like that. Yeah,
and just because a lot of them are historical, I
have a one of the first leather bound ones that

(06:53):
they release at the beginning. I've got a hard copy,
a hard back copy of the first edition signed by
all the authors, including John Green. We saw those at
the museum every once in a while too. Whenever a
Hancock house uncovers one or two lying around in their warehouse,
they tell me and I buy those. And so actually
there are still some first edition hardback signed by John Green,

(07:13):
Chris Murphy, and Thomas steinbrew copies available every once in
a while. But you know what I tell people, I mean,
those are one hundred bucks. It's a great book, but
don't buy one hundred dollars one unless you're a nerd
like me and like you know, you like autograph copies
of things. Because they updated it to a second edition,
know the Sasquatch, those are like thirty bucks or for
thirty five bucks, buy those. But anyway, when they were

(07:35):
updating the first edition to the second edition of the book,
they were making some corrections, as people do when they're
doing a second edition, and one of those corrections was
in the I think in the Blue Creek Mountain section,
or it's actually called the Hooker photograph. Now, before you
get too excited, the Hooker is the last name of
a person, so don't get bit out of shape about
that one. Apparently, well this is a long history, so

(07:59):
I guess I should go back, go back to the
beginning of this thing, many many years ago, when I
still lived in southern California. A friend of mine named
David Murphy. He's a bigfooter. He is interested in the
historical side of things a little bit more than the
fieldwork sort of stuff. Man, he kind of pops in
and he's really intense about it for a little while
that he pops out. Nobody hears from him for a
few months, and he goes back and forth like that.

(08:20):
But he's a good guy. He's still a friend of
this day.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
Actually.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
But when I was living in Southern California, he called
me and said, Cliff, what are you doing on this
day or whatever? And I said, I don't know what
am I doing? And he says, you're coming with me
the Peter Burns house he lived at the time, Peter
burn and his longtime girlfriend, and I don't think they
ever tied the knot, so I can't call her a wife.
But like longtime girlfriend, Kathy lived out in one of

(08:43):
the canyons like Tepega Canyon or it was one of
those canyons out there by Malibu somewhere in a nice
sort of semi rural place, and I go, yeah, I've
never met Peter Burn And I mean, this is a
long time ago. I had never met really barely anybody
at that point. I bet you this was maybe two
thousand and four or something like that, if I had
to guess. But anyway, we go out there and the

(09:06):
meeting at Peter's house. I was there. Who else was there?
Was Daniel Prez there. I don't know if Daniel was
there or not. There were several other people, and one
of the people apparently worked at some sort of photo
processing place in Seattle in nineteen sixty seven, and they
were hoping that this guy may have some information about

(09:27):
the processing of the Patterson Gimlin film, because that is
a mystery. We're not exactly sure where it was done
then there everybody has ideas, and some ideas are more
plausible than others, but to this day we don't really
still know because there's no receipt or anything like that.
Generally speaking, they think that al Daatley got it published

(09:47):
or not published, but processed over the weekend kind of
under the table at one of these processing plants. Because
there's only two or three that were even in the
Pacific Northwest at the most two or three, because Kodak
had very proprietary way of doing that particular kind of print,
you know, that film print, so nobody else could do it.

(10:08):
So there's only a couple options available. And they think
that al d Atlee probably got it done under the
radar through one of his connections on the weekend, because
in nineteen sixty seven it was a very different time.
And frankly that I mean to be very honest and
open about it. That's how they process pornography at the time,
like under the radar on the weekend, because that stuff

(10:29):
was largely illegal, I think back in the late sixties,
you know so, and I think that ald Atlee used
some contacts, some clandestine contacts to do that because he
was a well connected man and being new people, right.
But anyway, we don't know. And we were hoping where
Peter Burn was hoping to find out a little bit
from this gentleman who worked in one of those processing places,
film processing places in the late nineteen sixties in Seattle. Well,

(10:53):
nothing came of that, but we did have a nice
visit with Peter and at one point Peter went to
to another room and came back with the boxes of stuff,
like a box of bigfoot stuff, mostly letters and stuff.
And in that box he showed me an envelope with
some negatives and some color prints in there. And the

(11:13):
prints were of footprint photographs in the ground, and there
were negatives there. There were two or three footprint photographs
and a photograph of the McLaren statue in Willow Creek
before it was completed, so it was still being carved
at the time, and it was across the street from
where it is now, and so that kind of gave
us a date for those particular photographs. It had to

(11:36):
be in about nineteen sixty seven. But there really wasn't
much information associated with the footprint photographs. But somebody there
was a name written on the outside of the envelope,
Reneeda Hinden. I said, oh, this is interesting, and Peter says, yeah,
I got a woman gave me these. You can have them,
then do what you want with them. I said, really,
it's very generous. Is yeah, you just have them to

(11:57):
do what you want with them. Said all right, I
will thank you, you know. And so what I wanted
to do with them is learn more about them. So
I came home, and it turns out there was a
phone number inside the envelope, and if I remember right,
the name was Dorian Hooker, and so I called. But
I got a hold of this person's daughter. Essentially. I

(12:17):
can't remember if I got a hold of her that
on the phone call, or if she called me back.
I don't remember that detail. And I believe that I
got a hold of the daughter. And I don't remember
the daughter's name unless my wires are crossed. And her
daughter's name was Dorian Hooker and her mom's name was
something else. I don't know. Again, I have this stuff
written down. I can go check my notes, but I'm
already too detailed on this general overview. But anyway, I'll

(12:39):
just say Dorian Hooker was the woman who took the
photograph and took She brought her husband to work every
day on a roadbuilding crew, and one day when she
showed up in the morning, tools were spread about everywhere
and all these footprints were all over the place, and
so she took some pictures of the footprints and left, basically,
and that was the end of it. And that's where
those photographs came from. Now, looking at the pictures they're

(13:00):
almost certainly like ninety eight percent chance that they are
some random pictures of the Blue Creek Mountain trackway, that
very very famous trackway from August nineteen sixty seven. Of course,
there are two famous trackways from August nineteen sixty seven.
That's what I can hear half the audience saying, right now,
what about the Onion Mountain tracks. Well, the Onion Mountain

(13:21):
tracks were earlier in August. And then when John Green,
who cast the Onion Mountain tracks, got back to British
Columbia where he lived, I think that that day or
the next day, he got a phone call saying, hey,
there's more tracks down here, anyone what And so he
hired a pilot to take him down, and that those
are those famous pictures. If you ever see a guy
walking around at the dog and John Green and all

(13:42):
that sort of stuff, that guy who's been erroneously identified
as Bob Titmas. By the way, I forget the pilot's
name I have again, that's another thing in the book.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Here, Keith Chizzari or Chiazari.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Oh, okay, there you go. Yeah, you have a much
better memory for names than I ever will, So I
rely on you in that thing.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
I'm saying this on the record just so it will
remind me when I'm editing. I saw a comment that
Todd Prescott made recently about that trip, and because someone
was talking about the split between Green and Hindon happening later,
and Prescott said, no, I'm pretty sure there's splits started
when Heindon pointed a gun at John Green on that trip.

(14:21):
So I got to hear that story someday. But that's
a quick aside, so continue.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
While Yeah, yeah, that would that would cause a riff
between me and most of my friends actually, but not
all of them, Yeah, most of them. Yeah, I keep
forgetting it's there.

Speaker 4 (14:36):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bobo will be right back after these messages.

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Speaker 2 (16:33):
So the long and short of it, there's these pictures, right,
and I don't know. I think I might have shown
them to the Chris or send them to Chris or
something like, yeah, look at these, these are of interest.
And next thing I know, those pictures appear and meet
the Sasquatch. They say, well, that's odd, and it says
foco credit Cliff Barrickman. I said, wait a minute, those
aren't even my pictures. I don't want to claim photo

(16:56):
credit for something that I didn't, you know, say, So
I had to write Chris and go, hey, man, those
are my pictures. I didn't take those, and he fixed
that for the second edition. So anyway, around that time,
around this time when they were playing around with the
second edition and doing these fixing things, you know, for
the second edition, there was a problem with those pictures.
And it wasn't with the pictures themselves, it was what

(17:17):
the pictures showed. You See, those photos showed what seemed
to be the blue Creek Mountain tracks, and it also
showed in those tracks a line in the heel. I
think it was the right footprint that had the line,
if you remember correctly, there was a line in the heel.
And Okay, Now fast forward to two thousand and two
or thereabouts, when Ray Wallace died. Ray Wallace the known

(17:39):
hoaxer who had kind of been around the big Foot
subject since the very beginning. In fact, ray Wallace had
the contracts who build the road into Bluff Creek and
then sub contracted it out to Jerry Crew, who casts
the first known footprint cast that is still in existence. Right,
we all know that story, I hope.

Speaker 5 (17:56):
So.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Ray Wallace had been it from the beginning. Right when
Ray Wallace died, his kids came out and said, hey,
dad died. Bigfoot's dead because my dad invented all the
Bigfoot stuff, and because Bigfoot's fake and my dad did
it all, you know, which of course is nonsense. But
that hit the news wire because the news doesn't care
something's nonsense as long as it'll you know, sell the paper,
I guess, you know. So a lot of people took

(18:17):
it as authority and true, despite the fact that it
was just a media lie basically and ran with it.
And one of the pictures running in that newspaper article
was of Ray Wallace's kid holding up stompers, and the
right foot had a line in it in the exact
same place. Sorry, So it's pretty damning evidence, right. It's like, well,
those kind of look a lot like the tracks, and

(18:40):
that line's in the same place. Okay. So there was
a big kerfuffle around that time with these hooker photographs
as they're called, and they're still in the books. You
can still see these things, right, And it's a concern.
Are the Blue Creek Mountain tracks fake? Don't really know?
Don't really know. I tend to lean towards them being
made by prosthetics being fake. There's a couple things that

(19:01):
make me wonder though, that could they be real? Chief
among them doctor Meldrum's identification of a half caste in
the middle of it all. You can't make half cast
with fake wooden stompers, you just can't. But having said that,
a lot of the footprints to me at least show
signs of hoaxing, So they're probably probably hoaxes, but you

(19:22):
can't say for sure. And this whole exchange between Chris
Murphy and John Green is about that, Okay, I guess
it starts with a Chris Murphy basically saying, as you've gathered,
I'm reading directly from the email. As you've gathered, I'm
working with Jeff regarding the Hooker and Blue Creek Mountain material.
Attached is where we're at. He's looking at the second

(19:42):
part of my experiments, whatever those are, although there might
be still changes. Chris Murphy goes on to say, looking
at the Hooker prints, I noticed an odd shape in
one of the prints, and it sort of matched the
Patterson Gimlin creature's foot seen in frame sixty one, and
Meldrum kind of pointed it out, and these things that
the Hooker print might be from the same creature. Because
doctor Meldrum believes that the Blue Creek Mountain tracks were real,

(20:05):
you know, it's one of the one of the the
perhaps disagreements that we had because again I don't know
that they're fake. I'd lean that direction, Okay, I'm not
going to say those are absolutely fake. I lean that
direction because of the artifact. That line and some of
the tracks look like the kind of impressions that are
the results of fake stampers, you know, and that's damning.
That's really damning. But Melgrim thought that they look pretty good.

(20:28):
And I think that part of the reason Jeff thought
that is the email that I'm holding in my hand
right now, which we'll get to in a minute, from
John Green. But Jeff kind of thought that was probably
Patty right. It does in fact look like the creature's
foot in a lot of ways. And now then John
Green replies to him and this says, Chris, you just
don't get it, do you. That's the opening line. It's like, oh,

(20:49):
that sets the tone. The fifteen inch Bluff Creek tracks
are the most frequently seen and infinitely most thoroughly studied
and documented tracks that there ever were, and if they
can be considered fake, then there is not the slightest
excuse for paying any attention to any tracks. Well, that's
a pretty strong statement that if the fifteen inch tracks

(21:10):
are fake, then then we might as well throw out
all the track evidence. And that's from John Green, you know,
pretty pretty pretty strong stuff. He goes on to say
that you know that he has seen those tracks in
the ground on multiple occasions. Renee Bob titmas ed Patrick
Betty Allen don Abbott and two tracking dog handlers and

(21:30):
their various hound hunters, loggers, surveyors and road builders. And
if all these people were fooled, then that's really something.
But I guess as possible. That's really I guess as possible.
But and of course he goes on to talk about
the Wallace's may have had wooden feet that are fifteen
inches long or like resemble the tracks, but that's because
he thinks that the wallace has copied the tracks when

(21:52):
making the impressions, which is possible. He goes to suggest
that Renee and I and everyone else who saw them
never even notice that there's a line in a couple
of these tracks, out of the hundreds and hundreds of
prints that were on Blue Creek Mountain, that that we'd
never noticed. It is kind of insulting. And to suggest,
as you have done, that perhaps so we're not really

(22:13):
hundreds of prints. It's pretty hard up that I can manage,
you know. So anyway, it's kind of an interesting thing
to hear John Green defending the Blue Creek Mountain tracks
that he clearly thought were absolutely one hundred percent real,
and he commented that that line wasn't universally present, and
so I don't know what to think of that. You know,

(22:33):
I'd like those tracks to be real, but again we
have those signs that they perhaps weren't. So I mean,
where do you come down on this, Matt? Do you
have any thoughts on this?

Speaker 1 (22:42):
I mean, you can see that line in a number
of photographs. I'm looking at one right now. In fact,
i'll send it to You've seen it a million times,
and I'll make sure that I get all these posted
to the pigeons. But there's, you know, a famous image
of John Green kneeling down by the tracks and looking
at them, and in the bottommost track visible you see
that line. So it's not just in the Hooker photographs.

(23:02):
It's in so many of the other photographs of them
on site and pictures that they took of the footprints
on site. And there was a user on Bigfoot forums
years ago. I wish I could remember what user it was,
but the image was posted so many times. I'm sure
I can find it, and if I can't, I'll link
to that in the Patreon post that I'll make for
this episode as well. But they took the Wallace Stomper

(23:25):
as photographed from the flattest angle, and then you know,
adjusted the size without changing the dimensions, but adjusted it
to overlap with several of those same tracks in the
ground and did an animated gift where it fades in
and out where you see them overlapping each other. And
it's a dead ringer in that line, which appears to
be some kind of like a crack in the wood

(23:46):
grain is present in the right place in many of
the examples of that foot, and it's the same length,
and it's the same width, and it's in exactly the
same place, and the toes of the same shape. And
so to me, it was like, this is a done deal,
and it's unfortunate, you know. I mean, we're all, we're
all capable of being fooled, border of falling into confirmation bias.

(24:07):
And I think the world of John Green, but I
do think he was wrong on that one. That everything
I've seen, I don't think anyone can argue, especially when
you see that animated gift compared to so many different
examples of that foot in the ground, and that line
appears with varying degrees of like clarity, because sometimes you know,
because it's a crack in the stomper. So if you're

(24:28):
looking at the stomper, you know it's sort of inverted.
So when it steps on the ground it leaves, you know,
the line is like a mound. It's raised up out
of the track. It's compressed less than the rest of
the track. And so some of those, as soon as
the foot's lifted, you can see that that stuff kind
of falls and crumbles away the dirt that's left standing
where the crack was. So some of them they're really
sharp and clear. Some of them they're a little bit

(24:50):
more degraded, I guess you could say, or not quite
as the grains of the sand or dirt are not
as tightly held together. But you can see the indication
of that over and over and over again. So I
just think there's no question that those were made by
those Wallace stompers. Like hands down.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, I know those sombers still exist too. I almost
had them. I mean not, I almost got to be
in the same room with them. I should say not
have them, per se, they still exist. I still have
a contact that knows the Wallace family, so I haven't
given up yet. It's just one of these things. I've
got so much going on that that's not the highest
priority because the Blue Creek Mountain tracks, whether they're real

(25:28):
or not, they've they played their role. That's those are
Those are the tracks that Roger and that Roger Patterson
wanted to film in the ground, which is why he
went to Bluff Creek and and kind of accidentally ran
across one of the critters instead. So they've already played
their role. They are important in the history of it all. Yeah,
so it doesn't in a way, it kind of doesn't matter,

(25:48):
you know, if if they're real or not, because they
they served a good role anyway. But the thing about
them that that makes me think, yeah, the line, the
line is definitely a concern absolutely or percent. Now I
think that track where there were eight hundred or nine
hundred tracks, and John was saying that we looked at
all these things and the line wasn't in all of them,
and they could have been filled in by the fine

(26:10):
substrate that it was walking through. John also mentions in
this email that the Hooker photographs seem to have been
taken on Onion Mountain, not Blue Creek Mountain. And now
how he knows that, I don't know. I probably have
something to do with the color of the soil, because
the color of the soil at Blue Creek Mountain is
very very distinctive, and Onion Mountains virtually the same place.
It's like literally a mile or two miles away or

(26:31):
something like that. It's virtually the same place, but the
ground maybe it wasn't the same color where John casts
the Onion Mountain tracks, which is another whole mystery too.
I mean, I have a copy, I have excellent copies
of the Onion Mountain tracks, but they're covered with some
sort of fine brown sand. But you know, I've got
a whole jar, in fact, literally in the same room

(26:54):
as me right now. I just turned around and glanced.
I have a complete, completely full mason jar of the
soil substrate from Blue Creek Mountain and that is definitely
an orangish color. But the color of the Onion Mountain
track is not. But we don't know if this is
the original or not. And that's another interesting mystery. I've
run across and I think I shared that with you
in a text like a week or two ago. I

(27:15):
ran across these tracks, and I have the Onion Mountain
track that appears to possibly be the original, And then
a Blue Creek Mountain track that looks the same. But
I also have another Blue Creek mountain track with the
appropriately colored orange soil on it, which is probably an original.
So I know, mysteries, mysteries, mysteries. And of course I
also have a letter from John Green going back and

(27:37):
forth between doctor Meldrem and John Green about the Onion
Mountain track, and John Green basically says, I don't know
if that's the original. I can't imagine. I can't imagine
that the detail that I see in it could have
been captured by copying it and fine sand. And it
certainly wasn't copied in latex because latex copies are basically white,

(27:58):
they don't have the substrate in them. And I don't
remember like I would have given it to Grover instead
of throwing it away, he said. And I don't remember
Grover coming over and taking the time to make a
latex copy of it. So I don't know. I mean,
I guess maybe that is the original, is what John
basically comes down on. I guess that's the original, is

(28:20):
what he basically says, because he has no recollection of
what happened to the original. Nineteen sixty seven Onion Mountain track.
So anyway, mysteries, mysteries, mysteries. There's all these mysteries, and
hopefully one of these random pieces of paper will will
open a door on one of these mysteries and solve

(28:41):
one of them, so I can put one of them
to bed, and just started working on the other eighty
mysteries that are popping up daily in this stuff. And
of course I just, you know, more than anything at
this moment, I wish I had one day with doctor Meldrum,
just one day in his lab, now that I know
what I'm up against, to say, Jeff, what's up with this? Jeff?

(29:03):
Who's this guy that? Where did this come from? You know,
guy has so many questions and I'll never get answers
for him. Basically, one day with doctor Meldrum that would
solve half of those or not more.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
Will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
I'm still scrolling online now, but I'll do some searching,
you know, before this episode comes out, to try to
find that animated gift. But there's some really great high
quality photos too. I mean there's the sort of grainier
black and white ones that we've seen in print. I
think the reason they look grainy is that I think
people are probably scanning them from the black and white

(29:49):
John Green books. So you know, the printing is, you
know whatever, the dots per square inch. The resolution isn't
that great. But I've seen some really high quality photos
of those two, and that line is so apparent in
so many of the tracks, And so I think that
was one of the trackways that John Green was challenging
people to replicate in his one hundred thousand dollars challenge. Yeah,

(30:10):
am I correct about that? And so you know, he
was clearly very invested in that one. And yeah, I
don't agree that those being fake casts any doubt on
any other tracks whatsoever. It's like, you know, every set
of tracks, every single track, whatever the case may be,
is like it's a coin toss.

Speaker 4 (30:28):
You know.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
If you think that sasquatches do exist, or at least
that they could exist, it's like, is this or is
this not? Is this a sasquatch or is this a
stomper or some other fabrication, And just because one flips
to stomper doesn't mean that all of them do. It's like, now,
we're back to this binary option set for the next investigation,
like where these left by an animal or were these

(30:48):
made by human hands, whatever the case may be. So
it's unfortunate to hear that those guys got heated with.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Each other over that. Well, I think Chris back down
at the very end because one of the in the
lasts exchange, Chris says, if you thoroughly read what I sent,
you will see that number one that I said the
hooker images were not of faked prince, and number two
the resemblance of the Wallace foot was probably because he
patterned the foot after the actual Sasquatch footprint, and number
three that the line does not have credibility insofar as

(31:17):
it being such. So yeah, Chris didn't really back down,
but he kind of he held his ground and said, well, John, relax,
it's okay. I'm not saying that these things are you know,
I'm not saying these things, And I think that kind
of diffused the situation there. But you know that that
fifteen inch track another thing that that fifteen inch track
very strongly resembles in nineteen fifty eight November what is

(31:41):
it number fifth I think or fourth fifth trackway that
Bob Titmas followed and then didn't we didn't. I give
you that letter that Bob Tipmos hand wrote about finding
those tracks and the circumstances around it.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
Met.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
I think the Titmus letter that we posted was about
the knocking sounds, the percussive sounds. Oh okay, I don't
know that we posted one about specific track findes, but
we did post a tip miss letter that was about, like,
to answer your question, yes, I have heard those sounds,
and in fact, one time I was with such and
such and he described that experience.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
Okay, well, I think in that letter here, I'll pull
it up real fast in my computer so I don't
get my information wrong because I got a squishy memory.
So Tipmos, there it is, did mister Green. Yeah, So
here's a letter from Bob Tipmos to John Green and
he is commenting about following the fifteen inch tracks and
it was dated eleven seven fifty eight. So yeah, yeah,

(32:36):
So the two days I think, if I remember, right
after finding these fifteen inch tracks, and he was at
sounds to me like he was at the Jerry cru site,
poking around looking for things, and he ran and he
started following things and basically found fifteen inch tracks, not
the sixteen and a half or so that the Jerry
Crew individual. This is a different individual, he said. I

(32:57):
second third paragraph down here says I saw six or
eight bigfoots tracks, and bigfoot is the name, the proper
noun that they applied to the animal that Jerry Crew cast,
the larger individual, So that's the large one, the sixteen
or seventeen inch I saw six or eight of bigfoots cast.
There are print tracks in the road about where we

(33:18):
saw them before, but none were any better than the
ones I already had casts of, which is really interesting
because is then the ones I already had casts of.
That's super interesting because how many did he cast? I'm
only aware of one cast from there, Jerry Crew's cast.
I'm not aware of any other footprint cast of that
individual at that time. So the another mystery, right when

(33:42):
you start reading these letters, like, okay, what else has
been lost to history? Right? Anyway, I haven't seen any
better than the ones I already had casts of. So
slowly walked up to the very end of the brushed
out trail, but had no luck out there either, returned
to the car and decided to make the steep cla
I'm down to the creek about two hundred feet below

(34:03):
the road at that point, and go up the creek
looking for tracks. There was only about an hour of
daylight left when I started. By the way, the reason
I'm having trouble reading this is because I'm reading a beautiful,
flowing cursive script. By the way, this isn't just a
type letter, so pardon me while I struggled through deciphering

(34:24):
what some of these letters are in this beautiful cursive
writing that Bob Titmas route. There was only about an
hour of daylight left when I started down the creek
on Sunday evening. There was nothing but bear tracks on
this side. So I crossed the creek and fell in,
and there on the other side were the huge prints
going upstream. However, he seemed to have been just snooping

(34:48):
around when the tracks were made for the tracks. Wandered
around a good deal up and down banks, in and
out of the timber and underbrush, down to the creek
and back over a huge boulders, logs, and piles of
debris left by the high water. My heart just about
jumped out of my mouth when I came upon the
first good clear tracks. They measured fifteen inch by six

(35:12):
and a half inch by four and a half inch. John,
do you realize this means there are at least two
of the creatures up here. These tracks were very fresh.
It had rained hard all day before, and these tracks
had been made since it had stopped raining. The larger
tracks sixteen by seven by five that's the bigfoot animal,
Jerry Crew's animal. The larger tracks that seen in the

(35:34):
road had been made before the rain. So this is
the first discovery of a second Bigfoot individual in California,
and basically in the American side of the history. All
the other stuff was basically Canadian before that. And he
found these tracks down two hundred feet of slope and

(35:54):
up the stream. If I'm reading this correctly, that's what
it sounds like to me. At least they weren't on
the road like the individual Bigfoot tracks were. A second
individual was found like way Off, way Off, a good
distance away. I followed these smaller track back to the
letter here. I followed these smaller tracks up the creek
for a couple of hundred yards and came on a hard, damp,

(36:16):
flat sandbar. He or she had crossed. John the most
perfect prince I have ever seen were on that sandbar.
And now, mind you, this is what I say, didn't
I say? Yeah to eleven seven, nineteen fifty eight. So
when he says the most perfect tracks I've ever seen,
there was like a month of finding footprint tracks before this,

(36:38):
you know, so he had never seen tracks for like
a month before this. So it's not as strong a
statement as one might think.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Maybe as a hunter, he just meant like animal tracks period,
you know, if he's hunting deer and bear and whatever
else in those mountains, maybe he's just saying, like, as
far as tracks go, these were super clear.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
Well yeah, And of course Timmis was soup and around
this the logging site where the tracks were found quite often,
since Jerry casts those, he caught the bigfoot bug and
he he was doing what he could to satisfy that rge. Know,
so John, the most perfect prince I had ever seen
were on that sandbar. I had a hell of a
struggle with myself for a few minutes. As it was

(37:17):
getting quite dark. I finally realized I couldn't leave without
casts of these prints, So I dashed across the creek,
climbed up to the road and went down to the car.
Just as I started to strip off, because remember he
fell in the river. Right just as I started to
strip off to put on a dry clothes, it started

(37:39):
to drizzle rain. That always helps, as you know, guess
it was, I guess it speeded up the change, though
I was damned near frozen from those wet clothes. I
grabbed a flashlight and the casting plaster bowl, et cetera,
and returned to the sandbar in tracks. And by the way,
can you imagine, like the Jank nineteen fifty eight flashlight

(37:59):
that this guy like going down and then like in
Bluff Creek. Bluff Creek is spooky, man. I've been out
there with that. I mean, I've told that story before.
To get trapped to a bluff creek a few miles
from the like after dark, with no flashlight, it's creepy
as hell out there, man. So I and anyway, even
Bob Titmas got to kind of creeped out. Anyway, so

(38:20):
he went back to the sandbar in tracks. He made
a cast of four tracks before running out of plaster,
two rights and two lefts. These casts turned out beautifully,
just simply perfect. I don't think we can ever get
a better one until there is at least until there
is a until we have a foot to cast. His
print in this hard damp sand was three fourth to

(38:43):
one inch deep. My print beside it was one eighth
inch deep. Say, Bud, let me tell you something. I
don't care how brave you are, what you're afraid of,
or what you're not afraid of. Take it from me.
It's damn creepy down in that canyon after dark, with
nothing but a weak flashlight and those tracks, while you

(39:05):
are standing in the dark and the drizzle waiting for
the plaster to set up, a large branch about the
size of my arm, I'm guessing, snapped about seventy five
or one hundred feet back in the timber. And I'll
swear I couldn't move for thirty seconds. And when I could,
I think I could have reached back and picked icicles
off of my spine.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Classic, And he goes on to say, quit laughing. He
says it in a letter. Quit laughing, You try it sometime.
I'd be willing to bet that a night out in
the creek with those tracks would separate the men from
the boys.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
So I think those those fifteen inch tracks. You know,
there was a fifteen inch individual. And I've always kind
of had trouble with those nineteen fifty eight nineteen fifty
nine tracks because they do look so Wallace esque. They
do kind of look like those But after reading this,
I mean, they must be real. They simply must be
real because the anatomy's there. They do look like real
tracks in a way, but they almost look too perfect,

(40:05):
which is why I thought they might be stompers, especially
the Wallace stompers. But where he found them, you know,
I don't think that Wallace would be doing that. Like
you go two hundred feet down from where previous tracks
are found, and then you start going upriver. I mean,
how far is that? And how far up river did
he go? He doesn't say, but it sounds like it
wasn't just twenty feet. It sounds like it was a

(40:27):
fair distance of one hundred yards, five hundred yards, I
don't know, maybe more. And then he followed them all
the way up into those sandbars above the Jerry cru site.
That's not a short distance. So I don't know. I
don't know. I think that those other ones might be real.
Maybe those are Patty too, I know, John and those guys.
John Green never thought that those might be patty, of course,

(40:47):
because he thought that there was a distinct difference between
the fifteen inch tracks and the fourteen and a half
inch tracks. Yeah, knowing what I know about what I
think I know, I should say because I'm no expert,
I'm a learner like everybody else. Knowing what I think
I know about footprint tracks, you know, fourteen and a
half or fifteen like, those are almost certainly the same animal.
You know, i'd say that, you know, we have tracks

(41:08):
from the animal wrinkle foot from the Blue Mountains and
those animals tracks. We have some pretty clear ones where
it was seemed to be standing still in like mud,
and those are about fourteen inches, they're not really that big.
But we have tracks of that same individual that measure
almost eighteen inches long because of slipping and sliding and
all that sort of stuff. That's a huge difference. So
to say that a fifteen inch track cannot be the
fourteen and a half inch track, I think that's a stretch.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
It'd be interesting to see, given the array of stompers
that we saw that the Wallace family displayed, you know,
some of those do correspond with other tracks that were
found and seen. I'd have to dig all that up
to get my notes straight in my specifics. But you know,
there wasn't just the pair that included the crack in
the heel. There's there's more than one set of stompers.

(41:51):
But be interesting to see like when the first examples
of those were cast or photographed in time, because obviously
there's a lot of time that between fifty eight and
sixty seven, and there was a lot of publications and
so the photographs of those tracks were passed around and
they were printed up in media articles and things like that.
And obviously Wallace was connected and he knew people that

(42:12):
were pursuing the Sasquatch, and so it's not a stretch
to think that he had seen a handful of photographs
or casts or whatever the case may be, and just
emulated those when he carved his stompers, so that the
dimensions are generally accurate, and he created a fairly decent facsimile.
It's kind of interesting he went with the stompers that
had that crack in the heel. I wonder if that

(42:34):
was like intentional, so he would know like, oh, yeah,
that's mine. If it ever got printed up somewhere, or
you know, if it was just like, oh, no one
will ever notice this. Who cares that there's a defect
in this stomper? You know, because it is pretty obvious.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Speaker 5 (42:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, And of course, you know doctor Crantz when he
did his experiments with his fake stumpers that he made himself,
he left a couple of the tosed fused together on
one of the feet in case they were reported as
real tracks, and he goes, no, those are mine be
able to identify them. I think that's a great idea.
But before we go too much further afoot, I do
want to point out that this letter, the Bob Tipmus

(43:08):
letter that I just read, that was given to me
courtesy of the Willow Creek Museum, the Willow Creek, China
Flat Museum down there that houses the entire Titmus collection.
So if you ever are on the West coast, please
go to that museum. It's fantastic. It's kind of small,
and they're going to be redoing a lot of stuff
in the next year or so. I'll be helping them
with it. From what I understand, they're asking for some

(43:30):
assistance and some guidance about some of the artifacts that
they have. And I'm going to be down there, I
think in March, March or April. We haven't set the
date yet, but I'm going to be going down there
to help them with their collection, to kind of point
out the importance of their collection, because it is astounding.
It is astounding what they have, It's amazing. And so
they're going to be redesigning I guess the room that

(43:51):
they house the Tipmus collection in. I'll be doing a
presentation for the board of directors for the museum about
their own museum, to show them the history that they hold.
And also so I'm going to be doing a presentation
for the entire community this spring sometime. I don't have
the date, but I'll I'll be sharing the date. You know.
I think there's a good chance Boba will be there
as well, because he lives not that far away. But yeah,

(44:12):
so I want to give credit where credit is due.
This letter is courtesy of the Willow Creek Museum and
it's just a fantastic piece of history that gives insight
into the friendship of Bob Tipmos and John Green and
also the discovery of those footprints. You know, the context
of the discovery suaded me. I think that they're real
instead of being like, I don't know if those are
real or not. That look a lot like you know,

(44:34):
Wallace Stompers. No, No, I think they're real. I mean
reading about this and how he discovered those in the ground,
I don't think that the Wallace is at that point,
and you know, a month after the first footprint cast
ever was obtained in America. Here at least, I don't
think that the Wallaces would be planting things a quarter
mile upstream down a two hundred foot slope. That doesn't

(44:56):
just that just doesn't seem appropriate, especially when we're not
even one hundred perc. I'm sure that they were in
California at the time. There's we don't know exactly where, when,
and where Ray Wallace was coming and going at that time.
But remember Ray Wallace was not on the site when
Jerry Crew cast those prints because he subcontracted the job
to Jerry Crew because he was elsewhere. So important things

(45:18):
to remember here.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah, it seems unlikely that if you were hoaxing tracks
to you know, confuse or excite or trick people, that
you would put them in places that would be very
unlikely that anyone would ever find them.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (45:34):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
Will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yeah, I know. And you know, for a while people
were pointing out, oh, it's that double ball thing on
the inside, on the medial side of the foot, like
underneath the big toe. That's an indicator of a Wallace stomper, right,
because you know, there were so prevalent, and a lot
of the Wallace stompers have those in it. A lot
of the fake tracks, a lot of the casts that
were made from them, have a really prominent double ball

(46:08):
or whatever. And it's not really a double ball. That's
not the way one should think of it. It turns
out that a lot of tracks have that feature. I
was just I kind of I didn't discover that, but
I saw this firsthand. Not a month ago, I was
making a couple copies for display we're developing at the NABC.
I was making a couple copies of a print from

(46:30):
nineteen eighty six and another print from nineteen eighty eight,
both from the Blue Mountains, and this particular display is
going to be about the pronation and supernation of the
foot and how that affects the impression in the ground
and the shape of the foot, because sasquatch feet are
you know, they're not like human feet. They're very very
wiggly and malleable and mobile, I guess. And so when

(46:50):
you pronate or supinnate the foot, which basically means how
much of the planner surface the underside of the foot
is in contact with the ground, it changes the direction
of the toes, It changes a lot of things. And
both of those tracks, the nineteen eighty six to one
from Tiger Canyon that Paul Freeman cast and the nineteen
eighty eight one from Indian camp at Places called it
West Summerland cast. Both of those impressions, both of those

(47:13):
casts have that double ball feature. It's just say, to
a lesser degree than the Bluff Creek individuals did. And
that double ball feature. Doctor Meldrim wrote about it in
his book. There's that story where he was massaging his
ex wife's feet while watching a movie and she had
very very flexible feet and he kind of pushed her
toes over and then it made a flextion crease at

(47:33):
that location, creating a double ball. I believe where the
metatarsals meet the falangies. I believe, I think or it
might have been between the first and second falangi, but
I believe was between the metatarsals and the flangies creating
that double ball. So what we see there seems to
be a product of a flextion crease in a very
thick fat pad on the bottom of the sasquatch foot.

(47:56):
And I'm starting to track down other examples from other
places and times with those same features.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, I'm still trying to search up that animated gift.
I will find it before this episode publishes and include
that for pigeons. But you know, Ray Wallace caused quite
a stir well. I guess his family he did cause
a stir but his family also caused quite a stir by,
you know, trying to attribute everything to him, But you know,
I don't think he was at Ruby Creek in the

(48:24):
nineteen forties, and you know all these other cases where
there were tracks that were either documented by multiple people.
You know that one of the Ruby Creek tracks was
cast by Joe Dunn, police officer from Bellingham, Washington, but
apparently that cast was lost.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, that's the first cast set i'm aware of was
ever made, but we don't know where it is.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
I highly doubt you could attribute that, or you know,
we can name a laundry list of other examples that
cannot be attributed to Wallace. But there's no doubt that
he did fake some tracks. And unfortunately, I do think
that those famous sixty seven tracks could be attributed to him.
I just think it's a slam dunk when you see
all the examples of that line, and and I've heard,
you know, people do this apologist sort of argument that, oh, well,

(49:04):
maybe the sasquatch had a laceration in its heel and
that scarred over with scar tissue, and Ray saw its
real tracks and then carved that crack in the wooden
stopper to emulate that. It's like that's a bit of
a stretch.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
Well, yeah, that's introducing, you know, complications where they don't
need to be.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
It's special pleading, that's for sure, you know.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah, see, And I think that the Onion Mountain tracks,
I think those are fake. I don't think that those
were real, because there's other examples of that same footprint.
In fact, Jerry Crew himself cast foot cast that impression.
Not that impression, not the Onion Mountain, That's not what
I mean, Jerry Crew. When I met with Jerry Crew's
sons and I got to see the actual cast that

(49:48):
was made, they had other casts that Jerry Crew had
obtained in his big footing career, because Jerry Crew is
arguably the first bigfooter ever. Now, there were Sasquatch researchers
on Green among them before the Jerry Crew cast. But
remember Jerry Crew is credited with being the source of
the Bigfoot name, so that means Jerry Crew was the

(50:09):
first bigfooter. When he started going out, he put trip
cameras up. He would go out there at night. He'd
spend the night on the road, the road crew, and
he would take his pastor out looking for sasquatch sign
and trying to see one, trying to get pictures of one.
He was all over the place doing stuff with Betty Allen. Yeah,
he was all he's very active for a while, and
he casts a number of other prints, and those other

(50:30):
prints that he had of them, there were several, in
my opinion, fakes, and he wouldn't know any better, of course,
because we didn't have a data set of Sasquatch tracks
compared with right. But a couple of the tracks that
he cast are just exact replicas of the Onion Mountain
track and the Onion Mountain individuals seemed to be at

(50:52):
the Blue Creek Mountain site as well, which is other
which is more damning evidence for the Blue Creek Mountain stuff.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
Is it for certain that Jerry Crew coined that word,
because that wasn't the first I'm going from memory here,
but you know, there was a letter. I hope I
get these names right, but I think the worker's name
was Jess Bemis and his wife's name was Coralie Bemis,
who wrote in to the paper there saying like, hey,
there's some strange things happened in my husband's work where

(51:19):
they're cutting this road and these large tracks. Has anyone
else ever seen anything like this? And I thought it
was in her letter that she had said that they
called it bigfoot, that the crew, you know, the work
crew called it bigfoot, and I thought that was the
first reference. But maybe it was Jerry Crewe who coined
the word. Well, that's that's actually a debatable thing. And

(51:41):
actually I recently designed a new display at the North
American Bigfoot center around this very issue. But we're going
to be putting that up in January, and we're putting
a lot of new things up in January and February
this year. So if you come in the spring, you'll
be seeing at least a half dozes under close hope
hopefully closer to it doesn't new displays there. But anyway,
Andrew gen Zoli is often credited twenty the word bigfoot

(52:01):
because he's the one that put it in print, But
according to John Crwe, Jerry's son, Jerry and the road
building guys were calling the thing bigfoot for weeks before
it was printed. You know, like once the print started
showing up in August, they finally cast him in October.
But when they started showing up in August or so,
in the time in between, they started calling the animal bigfoot,

(52:23):
calling the individual bigfoot. Oh, bigfoots back right, So you think, okay, well,
Jerry crew coined it right. Well, maybe two years before
nineteen fifty eight, there was a weekly television series called
Death Valley Days, and Death Valley Days had an episode
called mister Bigfoot, and in that episode they talk about this.

(52:44):
I think they called it an Indian legend sort of
thing of this large giant that would appear at night
and leave large footprints around the water tanks in the
Owens Valley where this TV series was supposedly taking place,
and they called that individual mister Bigfoot. I did ask
John Crue if his dad, Jerry, was a fan of

(53:05):
Death Valley Days, and he says he had no information
on that.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
He did not know. So we have a nineteen fifty
six reference to large eighteen inch footprints. And there was
a supposed scientist, right, and this is back in the
day like picture Gilligan's Island, right. You know, the professor
knew about everything because he was a scientist, which is
of course not the way science works. Usually scientists are
very very good at one thing and one thing only, right.

(53:29):
But you know, this particular scientist in the Death Valley
Days knew everything because he was a scientist. That was
kind of the mythology of science back in the fifties.
But he drew a picture of this large footprint and
by all means it's a sasquatch print. You know, of
course it's a fictional TV show, right that there's no
real big mister Bigfoot in there. But the fact that
he mentioned eighteen inch long footprints had a drawing of

(53:52):
something similar to a sasquatch print makes me wonder. I
wonder if one of the writers had some experience or
something that he'd be they'd be basing a lot of
that on. Of course, that's not even the first mention
of bigfoot in association with sasquatches in general, if you
go back to the nineteen twenties, I believe it was
nineteen twenties down in southwest Oregon, the Thompson Flat situation

(54:14):
down there, where four miners were killed by something and
sasquatches were around, and they called them Wildman. This is
a project from Mark Marcel, and I think Bobo was
helping them out with some stuff down in there. So,
the Thompson Flat situation down in southwest Oregon, those miners
that were killed, and they had sasquatch sighting center, kind

(54:34):
of like an eight Canyon sort of event. Honestly, there
are two mining claims. One was called wild Man Mine
and the other one was called Bigfoot Mine.

Speaker 3 (54:45):
I did not know that that's wild.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
That's the first reference that in association with sasquatches of
the term bigfoot. The first connection between Sasquatches, and that
term is from the teens or twenties in southwest Oregon.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
That's so fascinating. I did not know that about the
mind names, and I did to go back. So yeah,
Cora Le's letter, which was submitted or published rather on
September twenty first, she just referred to it as a
wild man. And so then the later Jinzoli article on
October fifth said, quote Crew said, the men refer to
the creature's bigfoot. Who and what is Bigfoot? The maker

(55:21):
of those sixteen inch tracks? Surely there must be an answer.
I'm reading that from the phenomenal Sasquatch available now then
North American Bigfoot Center at Amazon dot com.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
I got to buy that book. I should buy several
for gifts because Christmas is coming, indeed.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
But yeah, I remembered the Coraly Bemis letter. I just
I couldn't remember if she used the term bigfoot, So
maybe that term didn't come home from work by that point,
or if it did, she just hadn't included that. But
all that history is so interesting, and it's complicated by
Ray Wallace. But you know, people are always looking for,
you know, simple answers like a you know, a really
solid answer that solves multiple mysteries. And so I think

(55:55):
the family offered that when they said our dad was bigfoot.
It's like, oh, case closed, this one guy that solves
all the mysteries. But it really doesn't, unfortunately, but it
certainly does also unfortunately complicate things quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
Yeah. Yeah, the sasquatch subject, let alone, the history is
nuanced and subtle, and so many facets, and one thread
leads to another which looks like it unties a thread
that you followed last week. It's a very very complicated net.
It's a very complicated mesh of connected strands, and you
start pulling at one other one's unravel and the other

(56:30):
side of your little mesh things this not happens that
you have to deal with later. It's going to keep
me busy the rest of my life. I guarantee, it
absolutely guarantee that even if Sasquatches were discovered today and
then they're real animals, you know, so to speak for everybody,
and they already are, of course, but if everybody recognizes that,
I'll be entrenched in this quagmire of bigfoot history and

(56:51):
sorting out the various strands. Literally the rest of my life,
and there's really, honestly no place I'd.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
Rather be agreed.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
What do you think Rob Well for or thank you Bobo?

Speaker 3 (57:02):
H Well?

Speaker 1 (57:05):
I do think we went above and beyond on that topic,
and there's a couple of other topics, one of which
I think would be great for the members only podcast,
and then maybe we can save another one for when
Flesh and Blood Bobo joins us once again.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
I don't think Bobo is flesh and blood. I think
he's paranormal.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
I tend to agree with that. I like how there
was a recent It was a member's only episode, so
if you're not a member, you didn't hear it, but
we were talking about Bobo's chaotic life and Cliff You said, Bobo,
I don't know, I don't know how you survived. Man,
You're like the god of entropy. And he just said
thank you.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
I was just thinking that a paranormal might be as
normal as Bobo ever gets.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Yeah, agreed.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
You and I got together before the call here to
say what do we want to talk about today? And
we had these topics lined it. We didn't even we
didn't even touch on it. We had all this plan
and it's got oh we started talking in my mouth
open and then all this stuff started pouring out.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
So well, I'm always interested in this stuff, and especially
hearing that Murphy and Green were still you know, debating
that when they were And but yeah, we can. We
can tackle one of those for the member, since one
was submitted by a member. Again, one of the topic
that I really have in mind. I won't spoil it
for people, but it's something that's asked about very often,
so it's sort of a perennial question, So we can

(58:19):
we can tackle that and then save the other one
that's a specific listener submitted question for when the Bobes
is back.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Yeah, yeah, because I think that Bobo might have a
different point of view on it than I do, so
they'll be back soon.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
And as always, he was deeply missed at Cryptocon. I
think beyond people talking about the podcast, the most often
asked question is like, where's Bobo? Why doesn't Bobo do
any of these? So not only do we miss you, Bobo,
but the folks, the people they miss you.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Yeah, a lot of people ask that question. So all right,
I guess we should close down this shop, right.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
Let's do it, and we'll roll over to the pigeons.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Yeah. Yeah, So if you do want to become a
member of a Big and Beyond and get these episodes
with absolutely zero advertising in it, that alone is worth
five bucks a month. I think you had four of
these episodes with no advertisements, all that for five bucks
a month, as well as photographs and things that we
share only with our beloved pigeons as we've nicknamed our followers.
So maybe you want to do that. If you do

(59:18):
want to become a member, click that link that matpprou
will put in the show notes, and other than that,
we'll talk to you next week. Everybody, keep it squatchy.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you
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at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on
Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle,

(59:51):
and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag
Bigfoot and Beyond. A band of stood att