May 26, 2022 • 41 mins
On May 23, 1991, several men robbed Kenneth McLean in his apartment in Boston, MA. When McLean tried to run, one of the men chased and fatally shot McLean in the street. 15 year old Derek Hobson informed police that he had witnessed the murder. Later, Detective Thomas Gomperts received an anonymous tip naming four men who were allegedly involved in the shooting. One of those men was 23-year-old, Robert Foxworth, who had many alibi witnesses to his whereabouts during the time of the shooting. Detective Gompert created a photo array with the suspects’ pictures to show Derek Hobson. Although he claimed never to have seen the shooter’s face, Hobson chose Robert based on his hairstyle. Robert Foxworth was identified and subsequently arrested. Based on mistaken eyewitness identification, Robert Foxworth was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Innocence Network is alusiffiliation of independent innocence organizations, and
each year, members of these organizations, as well as the
hundreds of exneries who they've helped free, gather for the
Innocence Network Conference, and our team was honored to join
them for their twenty two gathering in Arizona. On May
(00:21):
twenty third, nineteen ninety one, in the Roxbury section of Boston,
two men entered Kenneth McLean's home to settle a drug dispute.
When he escaped, one of the men vainly shot him
in the street. Two teenage witnesses, neither of whom had
seen the assailed faces, described the men as black and
that the shooter had a lock of hair growing down
the name of his neck. One of the witnesses, Derek Hobson,
(00:44):
considered the victim to be like an uncle to him.
When he viewed a photo line up in front of
the grieving family, only one of the men pictured, Robert Foxworth,
had hair that fit Derek's description of the shooter. Robert
was not in the area at the time of the
crime and had no connections to the victim, but a
known entity of the police as a drug dealer. After
Derek tried to recant his identification at a pre trial hearing,
(01:06):
the state knew that they needed to strengthen their case.
They picked up a drug dealer named Troy Logan, who
had been bragging about being the actual shooter. Logan agreed
to give a statement implicating Robert instead, and they were
tried together along with the third man, Ronnie Christian. With
logan statement and Derek Hobson's coerced identification, the other men
were acquitted and Robert was sent away for life. A
(01:28):
few years later, one of Logan's co conspirators gave a
detailed description of the crime, exonerating Robert in front of
members of the prosecutor's office and federal agents. Yet the
fight for Robert's freedom had only just begun. This is
wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. Today's episode is
(02:00):
a searing indictment of a system that I think we
all grew up thinking and hoping was better than it is.
And when I say that, this is a grotesque example
of just how easy it is to send a man
away forever on the flimsiest of evidence came and call
it evidence with a callous disregard for the rights, the
(02:26):
hopes and dreams of that individual has happened in Massachusetts,
and we have the man here himself in person. We're
here at the Innocence Network conference in Phoenix, Arizona, and
all the way from Boston, Massachusetts is Robert Foxworth. So Robert, welcome,
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I would say
I'm sorry you're here because of what it took for
(02:46):
you to be here, but I am very happy and
honored that you're here to share your story and with
him his attorney, Amy Belger. Amy is a sole practitioner
and a post conviction attorney. Welcome, thank you for being here.
Thank you, Robert. We always like to start with a
little background. Where did you grow up and that did
(03:07):
you have happy childhood? Oh? Yeah, I had a good childhood.
Had you know My dad had his own barber shop
in my mom was in the medical field, and the
area was good. It was a good place to grow up.
I did have a solid family like that, a lot
of love dea. But at some point I guess I
took the wrong turn in life and started run in
(03:32):
the streets selling drugs. But you're not gonna get any
judgment here about drug use or or dealing. I mean,
we here at wrong for conviction and myself personally, we
believe that everyone should be free to do with their
own body whatever they choose, as long as they're not
causing harm to other fully self sufficient excutero living humans
and certainly using our dealing drugs is not murder, which
(03:56):
is the crime that we're here to discuss. However, it
was drug dealing that made you have known into the police.
In fact, you were even known to the detective in
this very case, Detective Flynn, who it's fair to say
probably was not so fond of you, which is really
the only motive I've been able to surmise for why
(04:16):
you were targeted for a crime you were not in
the area to even commit if you had wanted to,
and had no connection to whatsoever. I mean, did you
even know the victim? I never met this dude a
day in his life. I would have never known him
if I met him. Okay, so Amy, can you give
us the details of this horrible scenario. I mean, it
starts off with two men and one driver. They pulled
(04:38):
up to the house of Kenneth McLean. The two were
led into the home by his eight year old daughter,
so they may have known her. And it appears that
this was drug related. From all that we can tell
from the investigation, it was a drug related dispute between
the deceased man whose name was Kenneth McClean and the
(04:59):
per portraders of this crime. In this eight year old child,
you know, witnessed this unfold before her eyes, and those
men took vengeance on her father and at first abused
him in an upstairs part of the house, and he
escaped and came running out onto the street unclothed with
(05:21):
electrical tape near his mouth and his wrists, and they
shot him in broad daylight. Yeah, it's like something out
of a Tarantino movie. Right. They stripped this man of
everything but his sweatshirt, bound him with tape, and somehow
or other he was able to break free and make
a run for his very life. But of course he
had very little chance as these men were armed, and
(05:43):
tragically he was killed. Had you been made aware of
this crime, was it big news in the area. It's
from another part. It's from Roxbury. Was matdipeon delicous and
rock from Madapeans and Roxbury's the other. But it was
on the news and everyone heard about it. It made
They had him labeled as a drug dealer. So and
(06:04):
the Boston Police put out an ap B. They were
looking for three black men. Quote that I read was
one black, dark skin no further descriptions. Number two black
male six ft to six found about twenty five years old,
with medium curly hair and a long curl down the
center of his hair, down the nape of his neck.
(06:24):
That remember that detail, the long curl that's going to
come into play. Shortly wearing a red sweatshirt, a red
shirt and blue jeans. He was the one that fired
the shots. According to a witness, there in a red
Toyota or red Ford escort, four doors being operated by
a dark skin black male. Now, these descriptions came from
(06:46):
some neighborhood kids. Yes, his name was Derek Hopson. Their
description initially, they had said, if I'm not mistaken, that
they couldn't see the faces of the individuals that were
running away as they were walking to go to play
basket ball whatever they were doing. And of course that
changed over time, and that should give everybody pause. And
(07:06):
these kids were friends of the man who was murdered. Yes,
they were close friends and I think distant family members.
He said he's like uncle toon. Okay, So they have
these descriptions and the hairstyle, how did that play into
your misidentification or, as we find out later, coerced false identification?
Mom My hairstyle at the time, I got curly hair.
(07:28):
I used to leave it was a tale. The popular
hairs to everyone was so you have a tail on
the back end that do you can brayed? So okay.
So this was a popular hairstyle at the time. So
not exactly a defining characteristic, right, It's not like a
birth mark or a lazy eye or something, right, but
you were known to police and had that hairstyle. So
then a few weeks go by and then there's this
(07:50):
alleged tip from a confidential informant that names you along
with three others. The fact that it was a documented
anonymous call that put Robert's name in the case, we
were never able to source that anywhere. And now that
we know what we know about the way the Boston
(08:12):
Police detectives gathered evidence or put a case together to
convict him, you know, we don't believe that ever took
place we don't believe that phone call ever came. It
seems like they were doing what was unfortunately prevalent in
the police departments all across this country and the quote
unquote tough on crime era, and as in many cases,
(08:33):
it's hard to discern what is real and what is fabricated,
as it means to another end when we consider the source. Now. Nevertheless,
this alleged confidential informant tip seemed to contain at least
some credible information. It named Ronnie Christian, one of Robert's
co defendant who is believed to have at least known
the victim in this case, another guy named Steven Seewee,
(08:54):
as well as a guy named Hoosie Joiner whose name
will definitely come up later, so remember that name. But
before we get ahead of ourselves, it was this alleged
tip that police claimed at the time informed their decision
to put Robert's picture into a photo lineup for the
fifteen year old witness Derek Hobson to view. They brought
him inside the victim's household, the victims family and showed
(09:18):
him pitches and me and told him that I was
the one that did it. You were the only one
in the lineup with a deal. Right, So here's the
one identifying factor that the kids seemed to be sure of,
and they're gonna put you in there with the only
thing that they have to cling onto him. And Derek
was fifteen years old when they did that. They pulled
him off the street into a home, you know, of
(09:42):
the grieving victims family and directed him to identify Robert.
We see suggestive lineups and show ups and photo arrays
all the time, but this would fall into the category
of extremely suggestive para fair and even the fifteen year
old child witness was trying to message to the detectives
(10:08):
I'm only able to identify the hairstyle in the beginning.
He did the best he could as a child to
do the right thing in that situation, but as you've
probably read, with future efforts by the police, his will
was overborne. Yeah, so Hobson was showing another photo of
rare week or so later, this time, though, Roberts is
(10:29):
the only photo present from the first photo lineup, as
well as again being the only person in the lineup
with that hairstyle. So super suggestive and we don't know
anything else about this interaction. But if the first time
was any indication. Never mind what we know happened later
at pre trial and at trial and what Derek later
said as an adult, there was probably a lot of
(10:51):
pressure and suggestion going on, and Derek Hobbs had again
identified Robert and you were arrested on July eleven. That's
six weeks after the crime and almost a month after
Dark's initial I d in front of the victim's family.
So it doesn't seem like they were in a big
hurry here. If they were really convinced that you were
in credible throughout the public safety, they might have moved
a little more quickly. No, I mean, I don't mean
(11:13):
to make light of it, but it seems ridiculous. Did
you hear that they were looking for you? Did they
just bust down the door one day? I was sitting
down watching TV and turned so my girl at the
time opened the door and they ran in and they
said put your hands behind it back and they cuffed
me and put me in the car. And thus begins
(11:35):
almost thirty years saga. When we went to the motion
to suppress Aaron, and this witness got up there and
told the judge and all them listen, it's not him,
(11:56):
I can't. I let you know, it's curly here in
the tail. They said, you see the guy in court.
He says, no, I don't. So we was getting the
ruling on it in the morning, and I swore I
was going to win that motion. Yeah. He had faith
that we had a criminal legal system that was going
to straighten this out. You know, if we can just
get into court, we just get in front of a
judge and that judge understands that this witness is only
(12:20):
saying that he's recognizing a hairstyle, and you know, the
legal standard has been explained to Robert right, that it
was argued correctly to the judge. Right. He had faith
that this was going to get straightened out. I remember
losing it always sat with me wrong. It wasn't until
Amy and John and them came along and finally told
(12:42):
that they had a hearing without my lawyer's present, and
it was a judge, the d a police, and the
witness and then it that's where they told him that
I had asked the witness and that's why he testified
like he did at the motion to suppress. The argument
of the prosecutor was that Robert and people associated with
(13:02):
Robert were the ones who had intimidated the witness into
not identifying him, right, I mean talk about projection or
gas lighting or whatever you want to call it. And
because as was found out later from Derek as an adult,
that's precisely what they had been doing at this very
hearing to him when he was just a fifteen year
(13:24):
old child. Yes, so you had this escalating pattern of
the child's witness not testifying definitively against Robert, being taken
out into the hallway or you know, into the back
and being threatened, and then coming back in and you know,
giving more definitive testimony. And when I came in and
(13:44):
I on motion to suppress, Aaron just threw that out.
I knew I was going to jail. You know. All
these years later, on our motion for a new trial
that we filed in, he came forward and spoke to
the d a's office and explained all of what happened
from his perspective now as a grown man, and they
(14:04):
credited that that this had happened, that these cops did
do this, and that the prosecutor, the trial prosecutor from
their office engaged in this misconduct as well. I mean, wow,
I wish I felt surprised by this, but being surrounded
by all of these people at the innescence that were
conference men and women with very similar stories, it just
(14:25):
puts a very exhausting and depressing fine point on how
common and not surprising this all is. In fact, that
they recognized Derek's statement as credible, now that's the surprising part.
It shouldn't be, but it is so now that they've
had so much trouble with their only evidence against Robert,
(14:45):
this misidentification that Derek Copson was so desperately trying to rescind,
they knew that they had to gather something else against
Robert to make discharge stick instead of, you know, maybe
finding the real perpetrator, like what they're paid to do.
And it would be funny if it wasn't so sick,
because that's exactly what they did. And of course I'm
talking about Troy Logan. They also picked up Ronnie Christian,
(15:05):
who were not sure if he had any involved it,
but they were picked up in September. The police said
that Logan identified you from a photo lineup and gave
a statement, and according to Logan, you accompanied him and
another man to Kenneth mcclean's house to buy coke. Now,
you and McClean supposedly argued about a previous deal in
which McLean allegedly sold you a bad batch. Logan said
(15:27):
that he left when the fighting started, but that he
saw you go back inside with a gun and he
allegedly heard gunshots. So this all sounds like a typical
course or it said, to buy a statement where a
witness cops to being there, right because he has to
under this pressure, but not enough to incriminate himself, right,
just a safe distance, so to speak. So, I mean,
did you even know this Troy Logan character. I never
(15:50):
met the guy, but I don't know. He's from New York.
He's the New York gang member from the paperwork I see.
I never met him a day in my life. Okay,
that's I was getting crazier. I mean, So the state
filed continuance to delay your trial, Robert, because they wanted
to try the three of you together. But my whole
thing is I was ready for trial. They would already
scheduled the trial date and Logan at that point he
(16:14):
makes his statement to him saying this that, and they
preclude my trial basically to try it jointly. But there's
other evidence that they withheld because it would have killed
Logan statement. There's a statement from his stepfather who we
lived with, that outline that he told his stepfather that
he was the one that did it. So they hid
(16:36):
that pot from me. Amy looked like about to jump
out of your skin. So we didn't get that statement
from Troy logan stepfather until either So they buried it,
and they buried a lot of exculpatory evidence that incriminated
Troy Logan. Right because Troy Logan's false statement that he
(16:59):
gave to the police that implicated Robert was necessary to
the case. This isn't even disputed. Right. Much of the
incriminating evidence against Troy Logan was never turned over, but
a portion of it, the most important, I think, was
a report that the Anti Gang Violence unit put together
(17:22):
where they got information that Troy Logan was actually the shooter.
And if Troy Logan was the shooter, they're trying the
case to the jury saying Roberts the shooter. They have
this police report saying that they have a confidential informant
who has given them information, and they verified the confidential
(17:43):
informant through you know, other information. It was considered a
reliable informant who said, you know, Troy Logan is the shooter.
He's bragging about it all over the streets of Dorchester.
He shot Kenny McClain. And they didn't turn that over.
And their motive for doing that appear to be that
Troy was compromised. Troy had given them information about the
(18:07):
murder implicated Robert, and they didn't have anything on Robert
except the fifteen year old with the hairstyle. So it
wasn't until that that evidence came out that they had
buried all of that. Right, And when we go back
to the beginning of the show, and I was talking
about the flammiest of evidence, like literally, there's the a
strand of hair, right, and not a strand of hair
(18:30):
under microscope, just a just a hairstyle. This was the evidence. Yes,
Now let's talk about the attorney. So many of the
people we've had on our show had attorneys that were
not up to the task, and that's being kind. But
your family hired one of the top guys, is that right? Yeah?
And I had Willie Davis who tried write the cases before,
and you had Willie Davis and then Troy Logan, you
(18:52):
had another guy named William White, and then White actually
joined Davis' firm. Then the judge ordered you to get
a new attorney because of this new partnership that these
guys had forged. The conflict, Yeah, the conflict that that
created when they conflicted him out. He didn't give us back,
no money, He just recommended us to another attorney. Okay,
(19:15):
So the trial itself, there's this guy you never laid
eyes on in your life, not even from the same city,
who's outbragging all over town about having done this, and
you're being put on trial with him, right, Yes, they
put me in one area up days and put him
in the other. They brought me down, sat me at
(19:35):
one table, Ronnie and there, and then Logan over there.
And you know, ultimately that was a legal issue and
a legal error, right. And you know, trying Robert along
with Troy Logan, right, since they had this statement from
Logan naming Robert is a shooter. Admitting that into evidence
would have opened Logan up to cross examination. But since
(19:56):
he's a co defendant, forcing him to take the standard
trial would be a clear violation of his Fifth Amendment right.
So in order to protect everyone's right to a fair trial.
The prosecution came up with what they probably thought was
an elegant solution, but in reality it just trampled on
Robert's rights. That it involved using the name mr X.
Oh my god, can you elaborate on that Amy Troy
(20:19):
Logan statement to the police where he was naming Robert,
you know, as the shooter. The d a's office proposed
to redact Robert's name and call him Mr X in
the statement, you know, for the jury. So the statement reads,
Troy Logan said that, you know, Mr X took a gun,
(20:41):
went upstairs, shot this victim. Mr X is the one
who did this, and Troy Logan saw it. And then
the jury was told Mr X is not Ronnie Christian.
So by deduction, okay, there's only one other person Mr
X can be, and their theory of the cases, Robert
(21:02):
is the shooter. So the judicial system decides that a
fair trial for Robert is well, we're going to redact
your name out and we're gonna say mr X, so
we don't violate your rights, right, Um, but there isn't
anybody else possibly you could ever deduce was Mr X
except for Robert. And at the time Robert was tried,
(21:24):
that was considered a fair trial. Um, there wasn't any
kind of care and attention systemically to Robert's rights. Robert
didn't have the advocacy and the representation at the time
of trial that he should have had. But ultimately the
argument was put to the judge who certainly knew what
(21:44):
the law was and didn't do the right thing. So
the trial itself, how long did it last? About a week?
It's hard to believe they managed to waste a week
on this. It's literally nothing to talk about. This crazy
Mr X, which is like from a bad script. And
then the witness, it's a courageously doing his best to
(22:06):
backtrack and saying that he was only eight percent sure
in his identification. The way they got him to testify
against Robert is over the lunch break between the morning
in the afternoon sessions of trial. They put the kid
into a holding cell at the courthouse and they said
to him, you either testify that that guy sitting there
(22:29):
on trial is the guy you saw as the shooter,
or we're gonna put you in a cell with the
three defendants on trial who are murderers. And this is
a young boy. Yeah, he said he saw no way
out other than to tell the lies that he was
told to tell, right right. So yeah, as far as
the defense goes, Robert, did you have an alibi? Did
you have witnesses? A test upon your behalf? I would
(22:51):
have gotten on the stand, but the problem was my
always said it would have hurt me more to left
him here, my past and my convictions, so I didn't
get up to here. I didn't get on understand, so
I didn't really present no trial defense. I just want
to miss identification and alibi defense. My family members and
all of them came, but at that point I was
kind of stuck. And on March thirty one, nineteen, predictably, unfortunately,
(23:17):
the jury convicted you of second degree murder and sends
you to life in prison. To add insult to injury,
Logan was acquitted and Christian received a directed verdict of
not guilty after the state closed its case. So they
got it exactly wrong. I mean, it's incredible how they
(23:39):
how they do this and and lock up the innocent
man and let the guilty one go and then all
of us remain in danger. And that's exactly what happened here.
So that moment when you were convicted. I didn't know it.
I really didn't know what I was last verdict they said,
I didn't know it. Ronnie Fishing got generated I think
(24:01):
earlier that day or the next day, I can't remember.
And then when they came back, they read logan verdict
first and they said not guilty. So if my mom
was sitting in the front row, so when they started
saying my name, I'm looking around at her. It's that
I'm not paying attention because I just know I'm not
going to jam. And when I turned around, I see
the mails and be like, hey, you gotta turned around
(24:21):
the couple about it, I said, for what they told me,
And I know that was a horrible ride in the
back of that meat wagon. That was a horrible ride.
(24:50):
When I finally got up there, they bring me to
a unit called the A A unit and and that's
basically a segregation unit. So when I walked in, this
is this is straight on it right here. They had
trash in the middle of the units, probably halfway to
your calf, mice running around everywhere. You gotta kick through
it and go to yourself and lock yourself. And I
(25:11):
couldn't believe this, which prison was at Walpole. Walpole, remember
I think I was upstate, probably about sixteen fifteen, eighteen
months somewhere we got a letter from the federal authorities
on a freedom of information right request and let outline
that I wasn't the one that did it. I went
earl when the lawyer brought me this letter, I said, Oh,
(25:33):
I'm going home. I remembered that said. I was so happy.
And then when the judge denied the U thirty he
didn't put nothing behind it. But the letter didn't have
an affidavit supporting it, but originally was from the United
States Attorney's Office outlining who did it and how they
did it. Yeah, there was a federal debriefing of somebody
(25:57):
who was involved in this murder, you know, another a
person that was never a suspect and never brought to trial.
He was a federal informant, and and through that debriefing process,
the federal agents, you know, will say, do you have
any other information you know on any other cases right
(26:18):
that you want to give us? Because they're sitting there
in this prophet session with them and they have immunity,
and so the guy says, yeah, that Kenneth mclein murder.
You guys, you convicted the wrong guy, Okay, And the
reason I know you did is because I was there
for the planning of it. I was involved in this right,
(26:38):
and that was a right. And they turned it over
to Earl Howard, your trial attorney, who didn't make effective
use of it. Right, And then years later, you know,
the Suffolk County District Attorney's office didn't do anything about it.
You know, they've already declared that person to be a
(26:59):
reliable and formant because they're using his testimony to you know,
convict other people. Right, they've already decided he's reliable, but
they did not act, and they knew it was true.
Then they knew it was true because everything in that
statement that he made match the evidence from the gun
to the person who were in the car, the people
(27:20):
that were named in prior proceedings. Everything that he gave
in that rundown outlined who did it and it hates.
He said they had a thirty six tech nine millimeter
ballistics of the States said, that's what it was. He said,
with three dudes that got in the car, and needs
of the dudes, both of them dudes T level who
no one never knew, and he sent forman said they
were in the car. Now. He gave all this to
(27:42):
the state without knowing anything about my case at the time,
so it just took that from the state and matched
it to this point. Because I didn't appeal on my
case in ninety three. I didn't appeal my case then,
so it was nothing on the books for you to
read or understand anything. He just gave a statement and
outline how his involved moment wasn't who would have acted.
And when we got that statement, that's when we started
(28:04):
comparing it and it matched up. And that guy's name
was Hughes join them. And you know there were Boston
Police detectives and an a d A from Suffolk County
who were sitting there in the room, the two agencies
that were responsible for convicting him, and they didn't turn
that information over. You were let down to betrayed, screwed
(28:28):
over by not just the people that were against you,
but the people that were supposed to be protecting him.
I thought the same thing. Actually, my same attorney that
sold me out to try I had the same attorney
on appeal. I got the wrong end of his stick
by him all day Robert's trial attorney did not perfect
his appellate rights and did not exhaust all of his
claims in the state court before the time ran out
(28:52):
for him to do so, it was his attorney dropped
the ball, and so Robert's first post conviction lawyers John
and Lynda Thompson, who had the case for twenty years, right,
I only came in at the tail end the last
five years. They had the case for twenty years. So
they're trying to to exhaust his state claims and bring
(29:13):
it up to federal court, but it took years to
do that. By the time they do that they bring
it up to federal court, the law had changed and
made statements like the Mr. Xt statement inadmissible to convict
somebody with evidence like that. I think the district court
judge and federal court who actually heard this the first
time on the habeas petition, did say that that was
(29:36):
insufficient evidence to convict Robert, and she let Robert out
honest day, right then, and she did vacate the conviction
saying that evidence is insufficient to have convicted him of
this murder. But unfortunately the first Circuit Court of Appeals
reversed her decision and put the conviction back, and then,
(29:58):
of course our s j C. Massachusetts let that stand.
Our Supreme Judicial Court ruled that because the law at
the time of Robert's trial was that that was good evidence,
that that was good evidence, and that they weren't going
to return his conviction even though he had suffered this
injustice of not having his appellate rights perfected when they
(30:19):
should have been, and if he had he would have
had the benefit of that law. It was just another
gross injustice. John and Linda Thompson, you know, they got
him out and then they watched him return to prison.
I never forget that time. I never I was out.
It seemed like eighteen months later. I just got off
for boo boo boo boom, and I opened it in
(30:40):
the U. S. Monshould say, you're going never forget that there.
It's unreal. It is. And John and Linda they fought
the case all those years, even after they didn't give up,
they were resolved to have him come back out again,
and thank god he did so with a little break
in the middle. You endured almost three decades, but ultimately
(31:05):
justice delayed was not denied. How did how did you
get him how's he here? How did you do it?
As I said before, John and Linda never gave up
on the case, trying to get the d A's office
to give them access to discovery that they knew was
there that was withheld because the informant, who's the joiners
(31:27):
that I sat down, I told them they have all
the paperwork. You know, they were trying trying to get
the discovery, trying to get the information, and it just
got tiring. John Thompson wrote me a letter in January.
I knew of him by reputation, and he knew me
sort of the same way, and he said, I have
(31:48):
an innocent client, and I know you have a heart
for innocence work. And John Thompson is one of the top,
if not the top appellate practitioner in Massachusetts. And you know,
as soon as I saw the return address on the
envelope of the letter, I'm like, whatever he wants for me,
I'm going to do it right. So um, you know,
(32:09):
that's how I became involved in the case. He didn't
really need my legal mind, right, he needed my support
and he needed somebody to come in, you know, to
sort of be aggressive about the fact that they weren't
turning over the discovery actually calling it what it is.
This is prosecutorial misconduct. This is an ethical violation that
(32:29):
you haven't turned it over, and I'm going to tell
everybody if you don't give it to me. And then finally,
once we had it, we were able to put the
claim together and between John's efforts and my efforts, you know,
to try to get the information that went on for
twelve years, right when they had the documents the whole
(32:49):
time and they weren't turning them over. I talked to John,
I remember he said. He asked me if I knew Amy.
I said no, He's all I'm going to reach out
this then, and I said, okay, since he came, came
and it's yeah, I've seen documents that I would have
never got a lot of them documents, and I know
that for a fact, and you would have probably died
(33:10):
in prison. I U a certain point. You know, that's
what that's the pillar size of a basketball. And anybody
who got a lot of time in there tell you
it took years to get that pill down. When you know,
you take a regular pilly swallowing, that's it. But when
you're swallowing that pill that you know what, I'm never
(33:31):
going home. This is where I'm going to be for
the rest of my life. Every day you're trying to
take a little gulp to get it down, and then
after finally sat down in here, Okay, this is me.
It's where I'm gonna be at. So when the lawyers
come on board and they litigated and they get you
that relief and they pulled that ball out of this
like you go on in life, but you always feel
(33:52):
it down there. Nothing's gonna ever fill that spot where
that ball was at. Well. I mean, that's that's heavy.
It's powerful, and I don't think anyone who doesn't know
that on the level that you do could ever truly
understand it. And look, thankfully you're on the other side
(34:12):
of that basketball sized pill, and in no small part
through the work of Amy John and Linda Thompson, your
own hard work and perseverance most of all encourage And
I also have to mention my empathy and all of
this for Derek Hobson. I mean, he was coerced as
a terrified child to play a part in your wrongful conviction.
(34:35):
And I've got to imagine that he was carrying around
a huge amount of guilt, even considering how much he
pushed back under tremendous pressure. I mean he really did try. Yeah,
he tried, and um, I think you know, I think
that bothered him a lot, because since I've been out,
I took him, went out to eat him and his
wife and me and my girl, and and he just
(34:58):
told me, he's all like this bothered me for a
long time. Even before the district attorney called him forward
and asked him about the case, he said, when they
called him forward and asked him about the case after
almost thirty years, he said, do you want the same
story or you want the truth? And they said no,
we want the truth. That's when he told him the
truth and I was let out. But he told me
(35:19):
he was seeing a psych service person for many years
over that because he couldn't sleep in it was nothing
he could do. Yeah, that's a hell of a thing
to carry around with you. And it's beautiful actually that
you connected with him. You know, that says a lot
about your character, because I think a lot of people
would all the grudge and be easy to understand why
(35:39):
they would. So. On December eighteenth, prosecutor's father response in
suffering superior court that supported a new trial and your
immediate at least from prison. It's said, and this is powerful,
and this is a quote in summary, the single identification
witnesses credible recantation of his identification testimony, the substantial likelihood
that the unnecessar serially suggestive identification procedure could have resulted
(36:03):
in a misidentification of the defendant, and the prejudicial impact
of the manner in which the codefendant statement was presented
to the jury cast real doubt on the justice of
the conviction end quote. So District Attorney Rachel Rollins then
filed an emergency petition on December with the state's Supreme
Judicial Court, and on December twenty three, the very next day,
(36:26):
after hearing from the state and your attorney's associate, Justice
Scott Kafker, ordered you're released from prison that very day.
And here's an incredible quote from Mr Thompson to a
great attorney. He said, a tremendous amount of government resources
goes into convicting people of serious crimes, as it should,
but there are almost no resources available to people who
(36:47):
have been wrongfully convicted. We know there are many people
who been in this situation and has been his character
and determination that have made the difference. Wow. Okay, so
the day, what was that moment? Like, I was happy
I came home, but I came home in the middle
of COVID wasn't no jobs. Everything we shut down. And
(37:14):
you know, even though the state they let you out
after almost thirty years, they just out the door. We
made a mistake here. They leave out the door. They
don't give you no type of competence. I mean, if
you put someone there wrongfully and admitted, and you open
the door for him, you can't send them home with nothing.
Just that Some people I had a family, so I
went there, but some people don't have that. You know.
(37:36):
That's that's a very important point. And it's something that's
troubled me for a long long time and it's been
a significant animize energy trying to, you know, help to
build ramps for people coming out who don't have that
access like you did it, you know, because it's it's
insane like and it's absolutely insane. So we closed our
(37:58):
show every week the exact same way. This is where
I first of all, thank you again. I'm gonna turn
my microphone off, leave yours on, and just kick back
in my chair and let Amy Ony don't you go first,
and let Robert take us out for any final thoughts
you want to share with me in our audience. I'm
grateful that you know, at long last, the d a's
(38:21):
office did the right thing and met their obligations and
turned over the exculpatory evidence that they turned over in
Robert's case that got us back into court. And I
have hope going forward that we can have more conviction
integrity and learn from the wrongful convictions across the nation
(38:42):
um and recognize the flaws and the system for what
they are and fix them. And if it were not
for people opening up their minds and deciding that they're
going to do the right thing, I'm not sure Robert
would be here right now. You can have very tenacious advocates,
but you need all system actors to be honest about
(39:06):
the past and honest about what needs to be done
in the present. And so I moved forward, you know
from Robert's conviction and exoneration with great hope that the
same relief can come to others. As for me, I'm
happy to be here. I love Amy, I love John,
(39:26):
I love Linda. It came into my life and jj
for the better. I come down here. I was talking
to all these men women down here that went through
similar trials and tribulations, and you get a sense of
understanding that it's kind of like unique class because you
got the advocates here, you've got the media here, you've
got the family here. So it was just one big
(39:47):
happy and joy is. It's like one big family here.
So I noticed this and I told Amy this today.
This field, as far as litigate and post conviction appeals
and actual inns, exenres and all lack is well dominated
by females. And you know what, we as men have
to take our hats off to him and say thank
(40:09):
you very much. There's a lot of males, but then
you know it's dominated by females. That's because there's no
manchus in the room when it comes to female They
just want to get the job accomplished and they have.
That's why it's so packed down here this year. Thank
(40:29):
you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank
our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliver and Kevin Wardis.
With research by Lila Robinson. The music in this production
was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
(40:50):
wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
all three platforms, you can also follow me on both
TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason plom Ralevul Conviction is
the production of Lava for Good podcasts in association with
Signal Company Number one m
The Innocence Network is alusiffiliation of independent innocence organizations, and
each year, members of these organizations, as well as the
hundreds of exneries who they've helped free, gather for the
Innocence Network Conference, and our team was honored to join
them for their twenty two gathering in Arizona. On May
(00:21):
twenty third, nineteen ninety one, in the Roxbury section of Boston,
two men entered Kenneth McLean's home to settle a drug dispute.
When he escaped, one of the men vainly shot him
in the street. Two teenage witnesses, neither of whom had
seen the assailed faces, described the men as black and
that the shooter had a lock of hair growing down
the name of his neck. One of the witnesses, Derek Hobson,
(00:44):
considered the victim to be like an uncle to him.
When he viewed a photo line up in front of
the grieving family, only one of the men pictured, Robert Foxworth,
had hair that fit Derek's description of the shooter. Robert
was not in the area at the time of the
crime and had no connections to the victim, but a
known entity of the police as a drug dealer. After
Derek tried to recant his identification at a pre trial hearing,
(01:06):
the state knew that they needed to strengthen their case.
They picked up a drug dealer named Troy Logan, who
had been bragging about being the actual shooter. Logan agreed
to give a statement implicating Robert instead, and they were
tried together along with the third man, Ronnie Christian. With
logan statement and Derek Hobson's coerced identification, the other men
were acquitted and Robert was sent away for life. A
(01:28):
few years later, one of Logan's co conspirators gave a
detailed description of the crime, exonerating Robert in front of
members of the prosecutor's office and federal agents. Yet the
fight for Robert's freedom had only just begun. This is
wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. Today's episode is
(02:00):
a searing indictment of a system that I think we
all grew up thinking and hoping was better than it is.
And when I say that, this is a grotesque example
of just how easy it is to send a man
away forever on the flimsiest of evidence came and call
it evidence with a callous disregard for the rights, the
(02:26):
hopes and dreams of that individual has happened in Massachusetts,
and we have the man here himself in person. We're
here at the Innocence Network conference in Phoenix, Arizona, and
all the way from Boston, Massachusetts is Robert Foxworth. So Robert, welcome,
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I would say
I'm sorry you're here because of what it took for
(02:46):
you to be here, but I am very happy and
honored that you're here to share your story and with
him his attorney, Amy Belger. Amy is a sole practitioner
and a post conviction attorney. Welcome, thank you for being here.
Thank you, Robert. We always like to start with a
little background. Where did you grow up and that did
(03:07):
you have happy childhood? Oh? Yeah, I had a good childhood.
Had you know My dad had his own barber shop
in my mom was in the medical field, and the
area was good. It was a good place to grow up.
I did have a solid family like that, a lot
of love dea. But at some point I guess I
took the wrong turn in life and started run in
(03:32):
the streets selling drugs. But you're not gonna get any
judgment here about drug use or or dealing. I mean,
we here at wrong for conviction and myself personally, we
believe that everyone should be free to do with their
own body whatever they choose, as long as they're not
causing harm to other fully self sufficient excutero living humans
and certainly using our dealing drugs is not murder, which
(03:56):
is the crime that we're here to discuss. However, it
was drug dealing that made you have known into the police.
In fact, you were even known to the detective in
this very case, Detective Flynn, who it's fair to say
probably was not so fond of you, which is really
the only motive I've been able to surmise for why
(04:16):
you were targeted for a crime you were not in
the area to even commit if you had wanted to,
and had no connection to whatsoever. I mean, did you
even know the victim? I never met this dude a
day in his life. I would have never known him
if I met him. Okay, so Amy, can you give
us the details of this horrible scenario. I mean, it
starts off with two men and one driver. They pulled
(04:38):
up to the house of Kenneth McLean. The two were
led into the home by his eight year old daughter,
so they may have known her. And it appears that
this was drug related. From all that we can tell
from the investigation, it was a drug related dispute between
the deceased man whose name was Kenneth McClean and the
(04:59):
per portraders of this crime. In this eight year old child,
you know, witnessed this unfold before her eyes, and those
men took vengeance on her father and at first abused
him in an upstairs part of the house, and he
escaped and came running out onto the street unclothed with
(05:21):
electrical tape near his mouth and his wrists, and they
shot him in broad daylight. Yeah, it's like something out
of a Tarantino movie. Right. They stripped this man of
everything but his sweatshirt, bound him with tape, and somehow
or other he was able to break free and make
a run for his very life. But of course he
had very little chance as these men were armed, and
(05:43):
tragically he was killed. Had you been made aware of
this crime, was it big news in the area. It's
from another part. It's from Roxbury. Was matdipeon delicous and
rock from Madapeans and Roxbury's the other. But it was
on the news and everyone heard about it. It made
They had him labeled as a drug dealer. So and
(06:04):
the Boston Police put out an ap B. They were
looking for three black men. Quote that I read was
one black, dark skin no further descriptions. Number two black
male six ft to six found about twenty five years old,
with medium curly hair and a long curl down the
center of his hair, down the nape of his neck.
(06:24):
That remember that detail, the long curl that's going to
come into play. Shortly wearing a red sweatshirt, a red
shirt and blue jeans. He was the one that fired
the shots. According to a witness, there in a red
Toyota or red Ford escort, four doors being operated by
a dark skin black male. Now, these descriptions came from
(06:46):
some neighborhood kids. Yes, his name was Derek Hopson. Their
description initially, they had said, if I'm not mistaken, that
they couldn't see the faces of the individuals that were
running away as they were walking to go to play
basket ball whatever they were doing. And of course that
changed over time, and that should give everybody pause. And
(07:06):
these kids were friends of the man who was murdered. Yes,
they were close friends and I think distant family members.
He said he's like uncle toon. Okay, So they have
these descriptions and the hairstyle, how did that play into
your misidentification or, as we find out later, coerced false identification?
Mom My hairstyle at the time, I got curly hair.
(07:28):
I used to leave it was a tale. The popular
hairs to everyone was so you have a tail on
the back end that do you can brayed? So okay.
So this was a popular hairstyle at the time. So
not exactly a defining characteristic, right, It's not like a
birth mark or a lazy eye or something, right, but
you were known to police and had that hairstyle. So
then a few weeks go by and then there's this
(07:50):
alleged tip from a confidential informant that names you along
with three others. The fact that it was a documented
anonymous call that put Robert's name in the case, we
were never able to source that anywhere. And now that
we know what we know about the way the Boston
(08:12):
Police detectives gathered evidence or put a case together to
convict him, you know, we don't believe that ever took
place we don't believe that phone call ever came. It
seems like they were doing what was unfortunately prevalent in
the police departments all across this country and the quote
unquote tough on crime era, and as in many cases,
(08:33):
it's hard to discern what is real and what is fabricated,
as it means to another end when we consider the source. Now. Nevertheless,
this alleged confidential informant tip seemed to contain at least
some credible information. It named Ronnie Christian, one of Robert's
co defendant who is believed to have at least known
the victim in this case, another guy named Steven Seewee,
(08:54):
as well as a guy named Hoosie Joiner whose name
will definitely come up later, so remember that name. But
before we get ahead of ourselves, it was this alleged
tip that police claimed at the time informed their decision
to put Robert's picture into a photo lineup for the
fifteen year old witness Derek Hobson to view. They brought
him inside the victim's household, the victims family and showed
(09:18):
him pitches and me and told him that I was
the one that did it. You were the only one
in the lineup with a deal. Right, So here's the
one identifying factor that the kids seemed to be sure of,
and they're gonna put you in there with the only
thing that they have to cling onto him. And Derek
was fifteen years old when they did that. They pulled
him off the street into a home, you know, of
(09:42):
the grieving victims family and directed him to identify Robert.
We see suggestive lineups and show ups and photo arrays
all the time, but this would fall into the category
of extremely suggestive para fair and even the fifteen year
old child witness was trying to message to the detectives
(10:08):
I'm only able to identify the hairstyle in the beginning.
He did the best he could as a child to
do the right thing in that situation, but as you've
probably read, with future efforts by the police, his will
was overborne. Yeah, so Hobson was showing another photo of
rare week or so later, this time, though, Roberts is
(10:29):
the only photo present from the first photo lineup, as
well as again being the only person in the lineup
with that hairstyle. So super suggestive and we don't know
anything else about this interaction. But if the first time
was any indication. Never mind what we know happened later
at pre trial and at trial and what Derek later
said as an adult, there was probably a lot of
(10:51):
pressure and suggestion going on, and Derek Hobbs had again
identified Robert and you were arrested on July eleven. That's
six weeks after the crime and almost a month after
Dark's initial I d in front of the victim's family.
So it doesn't seem like they were in a big
hurry here. If they were really convinced that you were
in credible throughout the public safety, they might have moved
a little more quickly. No, I mean, I don't mean
(11:13):
to make light of it, but it seems ridiculous. Did
you hear that they were looking for you? Did they
just bust down the door one day? I was sitting
down watching TV and turned so my girl at the
time opened the door and they ran in and they
said put your hands behind it back and they cuffed
me and put me in the car. And thus begins
(11:35):
almost thirty years saga. When we went to the motion
to suppress Aaron, and this witness got up there and
told the judge and all them listen, it's not him,
(11:56):
I can't. I let you know, it's curly here in
the tail. They said, you see the guy in court.
He says, no, I don't. So we was getting the
ruling on it in the morning, and I swore I
was going to win that motion. Yeah. He had faith
that we had a criminal legal system that was going
to straighten this out. You know, if we can just
get into court, we just get in front of a
judge and that judge understands that this witness is only
(12:20):
saying that he's recognizing a hairstyle, and you know, the
legal standard has been explained to Robert right, that it
was argued correctly to the judge. Right. He had faith
that this was going to get straightened out. I remember
losing it always sat with me wrong. It wasn't until
Amy and John and them came along and finally told
(12:42):
that they had a hearing without my lawyer's present, and
it was a judge, the d a police, and the
witness and then it that's where they told him that
I had asked the witness and that's why he testified
like he did at the motion to suppress. The argument
of the prosecutor was that Robert and people associated with
(13:02):
Robert were the ones who had intimidated the witness into
not identifying him, right, I mean talk about projection or
gas lighting or whatever you want to call it. And
because as was found out later from Derek as an adult,
that's precisely what they had been doing at this very
hearing to him when he was just a fifteen year
(13:24):
old child. Yes, so you had this escalating pattern of
the child's witness not testifying definitively against Robert, being taken
out into the hallway or you know, into the back
and being threatened, and then coming back in and you know,
giving more definitive testimony. And when I came in and
(13:44):
I on motion to suppress, Aaron just threw that out.
I knew I was going to jail. You know. All
these years later, on our motion for a new trial
that we filed in, he came forward and spoke to
the d a's office and explained all of what happened
from his perspective now as a grown man, and they
(14:04):
credited that that this had happened, that these cops did
do this, and that the prosecutor, the trial prosecutor from
their office engaged in this misconduct as well. I mean, wow,
I wish I felt surprised by this, but being surrounded
by all of these people at the innescence that were
conference men and women with very similar stories, it just
(14:25):
puts a very exhausting and depressing fine point on how
common and not surprising this all is. In fact, that
they recognized Derek's statement as credible, now that's the surprising part.
It shouldn't be, but it is so now that they've
had so much trouble with their only evidence against Robert,
(14:45):
this misidentification that Derek Copson was so desperately trying to rescind,
they knew that they had to gather something else against
Robert to make discharge stick instead of, you know, maybe
finding the real perpetrator, like what they're paid to do.
And it would be funny if it wasn't so sick,
because that's exactly what they did. And of course I'm
talking about Troy Logan. They also picked up Ronnie Christian,
(15:05):
who were not sure if he had any involved it,
but they were picked up in September. The police said
that Logan identified you from a photo lineup and gave
a statement, and according to Logan, you accompanied him and
another man to Kenneth mcclean's house to buy coke. Now,
you and McClean supposedly argued about a previous deal in
which McLean allegedly sold you a bad batch. Logan said
(15:27):
that he left when the fighting started, but that he
saw you go back inside with a gun and he
allegedly heard gunshots. So this all sounds like a typical
course or it said, to buy a statement where a
witness cops to being there, right because he has to
under this pressure, but not enough to incriminate himself, right,
just a safe distance, so to speak. So, I mean,
did you even know this Troy Logan character. I never
(15:50):
met the guy, but I don't know. He's from New York.
He's the New York gang member from the paperwork I see.
I never met him a day in my life. Okay,
that's I was getting crazier. I mean, So the state
filed continuance to delay your trial, Robert, because they wanted
to try the three of you together. But my whole
thing is I was ready for trial. They would already
scheduled the trial date and Logan at that point he
(16:14):
makes his statement to him saying this that, and they
preclude my trial basically to try it jointly. But there's
other evidence that they withheld because it would have killed
Logan statement. There's a statement from his stepfather who we
lived with, that outline that he told his stepfather that
he was the one that did it. So they hid
(16:36):
that pot from me. Amy looked like about to jump
out of your skin. So we didn't get that statement
from Troy logan stepfather until either So they buried it,
and they buried a lot of exculpatory evidence that incriminated
Troy Logan. Right because Troy Logan's false statement that he
(16:59):
gave to the police that implicated Robert was necessary to
the case. This isn't even disputed. Right. Much of the
incriminating evidence against Troy Logan was never turned over, but
a portion of it, the most important, I think, was
a report that the Anti Gang Violence unit put together
(17:22):
where they got information that Troy Logan was actually the shooter.
And if Troy Logan was the shooter, they're trying the
case to the jury saying Roberts the shooter. They have
this police report saying that they have a confidential informant
who has given them information, and they verified the confidential
(17:43):
informant through you know, other information. It was considered a
reliable informant who said, you know, Troy Logan is the shooter.
He's bragging about it all over the streets of Dorchester.
He shot Kenny McClain. And they didn't turn that over.
And their motive for doing that appear to be that
Troy was compromised. Troy had given them information about the
(18:07):
murder implicated Robert, and they didn't have anything on Robert
except the fifteen year old with the hairstyle. So it
wasn't until that that evidence came out that they had
buried all of that. Right, And when we go back
to the beginning of the show, and I was talking
about the flammiest of evidence, like literally, there's the a
strand of hair, right, and not a strand of hair
(18:30):
under microscope, just a just a hairstyle. This was the evidence. Yes,
Now let's talk about the attorney. So many of the
people we've had on our show had attorneys that were
not up to the task, and that's being kind. But
your family hired one of the top guys, is that right? Yeah?
And I had Willie Davis who tried write the cases before,
and you had Willie Davis and then Troy Logan, you
(18:52):
had another guy named William White, and then White actually
joined Davis' firm. Then the judge ordered you to get
a new attorney because of this new partnership that these
guys had forged. The conflict, Yeah, the conflict that that
created when they conflicted him out. He didn't give us back,
no money, He just recommended us to another attorney. Okay,
(19:15):
So the trial itself, there's this guy you never laid
eyes on in your life, not even from the same city,
who's outbragging all over town about having done this, and
you're being put on trial with him, right, Yes, they
put me in one area up days and put him
in the other. They brought me down, sat me at
(19:35):
one table, Ronnie and there, and then Logan over there.
And you know, ultimately that was a legal issue and
a legal error, right. And you know, trying Robert along
with Troy Logan, right, since they had this statement from
Logan naming Robert is a shooter. Admitting that into evidence
would have opened Logan up to cross examination. But since
(19:56):
he's a co defendant, forcing him to take the standard
trial would be a clear violation of his Fifth Amendment right.
So in order to protect everyone's right to a fair trial.
The prosecution came up with what they probably thought was
an elegant solution, but in reality it just trampled on
Robert's rights. That it involved using the name mr X.
Oh my god, can you elaborate on that Amy Troy
(20:19):
Logan statement to the police where he was naming Robert,
you know, as the shooter. The d a's office proposed
to redact Robert's name and call him Mr X in
the statement, you know, for the jury. So the statement reads,
Troy Logan said that, you know, Mr X took a gun,
(20:41):
went upstairs, shot this victim. Mr X is the one
who did this, and Troy Logan saw it. And then
the jury was told Mr X is not Ronnie Christian.
So by deduction, okay, there's only one other person Mr
X can be, and their theory of the cases, Robert
(21:02):
is the shooter. So the judicial system decides that a
fair trial for Robert is well, we're going to redact
your name out and we're gonna say mr X, so
we don't violate your rights, right, Um, but there isn't
anybody else possibly you could ever deduce was Mr X
except for Robert. And at the time Robert was tried,
(21:24):
that was considered a fair trial. Um, there wasn't any
kind of care and attention systemically to Robert's rights. Robert
didn't have the advocacy and the representation at the time
of trial that he should have had. But ultimately the
argument was put to the judge who certainly knew what
(21:44):
the law was and didn't do the right thing. So
the trial itself, how long did it last? About a week?
It's hard to believe they managed to waste a week
on this. It's literally nothing to talk about. This crazy
Mr X, which is like from a bad script. And
then the witness, it's a courageously doing his best to
(22:06):
backtrack and saying that he was only eight percent sure
in his identification. The way they got him to testify
against Robert is over the lunch break between the morning
in the afternoon sessions of trial. They put the kid
into a holding cell at the courthouse and they said
to him, you either testify that that guy sitting there
(22:29):
on trial is the guy you saw as the shooter,
or we're gonna put you in a cell with the
three defendants on trial who are murderers. And this is
a young boy. Yeah, he said he saw no way
out other than to tell the lies that he was
told to tell, right right. So yeah, as far as
the defense goes, Robert, did you have an alibi? Did
you have witnesses? A test upon your behalf? I would
(22:51):
have gotten on the stand, but the problem was my
always said it would have hurt me more to left
him here, my past and my convictions, so I didn't
get up to here. I didn't get on understand, so
I didn't really present no trial defense. I just want
to miss identification and alibi defense. My family members and
all of them came, but at that point I was
kind of stuck. And on March thirty one, nineteen, predictably, unfortunately,
(23:17):
the jury convicted you of second degree murder and sends
you to life in prison. To add insult to injury,
Logan was acquitted and Christian received a directed verdict of
not guilty after the state closed its case. So they
got it exactly wrong. I mean, it's incredible how they
(23:39):
how they do this and and lock up the innocent
man and let the guilty one go and then all
of us remain in danger. And that's exactly what happened here.
So that moment when you were convicted. I didn't know it.
I really didn't know what I was last verdict they said,
I didn't know it. Ronnie Fishing got generated I think
(24:01):
earlier that day or the next day, I can't remember.
And then when they came back, they read logan verdict
first and they said not guilty. So if my mom
was sitting in the front row, so when they started
saying my name, I'm looking around at her. It's that
I'm not paying attention because I just know I'm not
going to jam. And when I turned around, I see
the mails and be like, hey, you gotta turned around
(24:21):
the couple about it, I said, for what they told me,
And I know that was a horrible ride in the
back of that meat wagon. That was a horrible ride.
(24:50):
When I finally got up there, they bring me to
a unit called the A A unit and and that's
basically a segregation unit. So when I walked in, this
is this is straight on it right here. They had
trash in the middle of the units, probably halfway to
your calf, mice running around everywhere. You gotta kick through
it and go to yourself and lock yourself. And I
(25:11):
couldn't believe this, which prison was at Walpole. Walpole, remember
I think I was upstate, probably about sixteen fifteen, eighteen
months somewhere we got a letter from the federal authorities
on a freedom of information right request and let outline
that I wasn't the one that did it. I went
earl when the lawyer brought me this letter, I said, Oh,
(25:33):
I'm going home. I remembered that said. I was so happy.
And then when the judge denied the U thirty he
didn't put nothing behind it. But the letter didn't have
an affidavit supporting it, but originally was from the United
States Attorney's Office outlining who did it and how they
did it. Yeah, there was a federal debriefing of somebody
(25:57):
who was involved in this murder, you know, another a
person that was never a suspect and never brought to trial.
He was a federal informant, and and through that debriefing process,
the federal agents, you know, will say, do you have
any other information you know on any other cases right
(26:18):
that you want to give us? Because they're sitting there
in this prophet session with them and they have immunity,
and so the guy says, yeah, that Kenneth mclein murder.
You guys, you convicted the wrong guy, Okay, And the
reason I know you did is because I was there
for the planning of it. I was involved in this right,
(26:38):
and that was a right. And they turned it over
to Earl Howard, your trial attorney, who didn't make effective
use of it. Right, And then years later, you know,
the Suffolk County District Attorney's office didn't do anything about it.
You know, they've already declared that person to be a
(26:59):
reliable and formant because they're using his testimony to you know,
convict other people. Right, they've already decided he's reliable, but
they did not act, and they knew it was true.
Then they knew it was true because everything in that
statement that he made match the evidence from the gun
to the person who were in the car, the people
(27:20):
that were named in prior proceedings. Everything that he gave
in that rundown outlined who did it and it hates.
He said they had a thirty six tech nine millimeter
ballistics of the States said, that's what it was. He said,
with three dudes that got in the car, and needs
of the dudes, both of them dudes T level who
no one never knew, and he sent forman said they
were in the car. Now. He gave all this to
(27:42):
the state without knowing anything about my case at the time,
so it just took that from the state and matched
it to this point. Because I didn't appeal on my
case in ninety three. I didn't appeal my case then,
so it was nothing on the books for you to
read or understand anything. He just gave a statement and
outline how his involved moment wasn't who would have acted.
And when we got that statement, that's when we started
(28:04):
comparing it and it matched up. And that guy's name
was Hughes join them. And you know there were Boston
Police detectives and an a d A from Suffolk County
who were sitting there in the room, the two agencies
that were responsible for convicting him, and they didn't turn
that information over. You were let down to betrayed, screwed
(28:28):
over by not just the people that were against you,
but the people that were supposed to be protecting him.
I thought the same thing. Actually, my same attorney that
sold me out to try I had the same attorney
on appeal. I got the wrong end of his stick
by him all day Robert's trial attorney did not perfect
his appellate rights and did not exhaust all of his
claims in the state court before the time ran out
(28:52):
for him to do so, it was his attorney dropped
the ball, and so Robert's first post conviction lawyers John
and Lynda Thompson, who had the case for twenty years, right,
I only came in at the tail end the last
five years. They had the case for twenty years. So
they're trying to to exhaust his state claims and bring
(29:13):
it up to federal court, but it took years to
do that. By the time they do that they bring
it up to federal court, the law had changed and
made statements like the Mr. Xt statement inadmissible to convict
somebody with evidence like that. I think the district court
judge and federal court who actually heard this the first
time on the habeas petition, did say that that was
(29:36):
insufficient evidence to convict Robert, and she let Robert out
honest day, right then, and she did vacate the conviction
saying that evidence is insufficient to have convicted him of
this murder. But unfortunately the first Circuit Court of Appeals
reversed her decision and put the conviction back, and then,
(29:58):
of course our s j C. Massachusetts let that stand.
Our Supreme Judicial Court ruled that because the law at
the time of Robert's trial was that that was good evidence,
that that was good evidence, and that they weren't going
to return his conviction even though he had suffered this
injustice of not having his appellate rights perfected when they
(30:19):
should have been, and if he had he would have
had the benefit of that law. It was just another
gross injustice. John and Linda Thompson, you know, they got
him out and then they watched him return to prison.
I never forget that time. I never I was out.
It seemed like eighteen months later. I just got off
for boo boo boo boom, and I opened it in
(30:40):
the U. S. Monshould say, you're going never forget that there.
It's unreal. It is. And John and Linda they fought
the case all those years, even after they didn't give up,
they were resolved to have him come back out again,
and thank god he did so with a little break
in the middle. You endured almost three decades, but ultimately
(31:05):
justice delayed was not denied. How did how did you
get him how's he here? How did you do it?
As I said before, John and Linda never gave up
on the case, trying to get the d A's office
to give them access to discovery that they knew was
there that was withheld because the informant, who's the joiners
(31:27):
that I sat down, I told them they have all
the paperwork. You know, they were trying trying to get
the discovery, trying to get the information, and it just
got tiring. John Thompson wrote me a letter in January.
I knew of him by reputation, and he knew me
sort of the same way, and he said, I have
(31:48):
an innocent client, and I know you have a heart
for innocence work. And John Thompson is one of the top,
if not the top appellate practitioner in Massachusetts. And you know,
as soon as I saw the return address on the
envelope of the letter, I'm like, whatever he wants for me,
I'm going to do it right. So um, you know,
(32:09):
that's how I became involved in the case. He didn't
really need my legal mind, right, he needed my support
and he needed somebody to come in, you know, to
sort of be aggressive about the fact that they weren't
turning over the discovery actually calling it what it is.
This is prosecutorial misconduct. This is an ethical violation that
(32:29):
you haven't turned it over, and I'm going to tell
everybody if you don't give it to me. And then finally,
once we had it, we were able to put the
claim together and between John's efforts and my efforts, you know,
to try to get the information that went on for
twelve years, right when they had the documents the whole
(32:49):
time and they weren't turning them over. I talked to John,
I remember he said. He asked me if I knew Amy.
I said no, He's all I'm going to reach out
this then, and I said, okay, since he came, came
and it's yeah, I've seen documents that I would have
never got a lot of them documents, and I know
that for a fact, and you would have probably died
(33:10):
in prison. I U a certain point. You know, that's
what that's the pillar size of a basketball. And anybody
who got a lot of time in there tell you
it took years to get that pill down. When you know,
you take a regular pilly swallowing, that's it. But when
you're swallowing that pill that you know what, I'm never
(33:31):
going home. This is where I'm going to be for
the rest of my life. Every day you're trying to
take a little gulp to get it down, and then
after finally sat down in here, Okay, this is me.
It's where I'm gonna be at. So when the lawyers
come on board and they litigated and they get you
that relief and they pulled that ball out of this
like you go on in life, but you always feel
(33:52):
it down there. Nothing's gonna ever fill that spot where
that ball was at. Well. I mean, that's that's heavy.
It's powerful, and I don't think anyone who doesn't know
that on the level that you do could ever truly
understand it. And look, thankfully you're on the other side
(34:12):
of that basketball sized pill, and in no small part
through the work of Amy John and Linda Thompson, your
own hard work and perseverance most of all encourage And
I also have to mention my empathy and all of
this for Derek Hobson. I mean, he was coerced as
a terrified child to play a part in your wrongful conviction.
(34:35):
And I've got to imagine that he was carrying around
a huge amount of guilt, even considering how much he
pushed back under tremendous pressure. I mean he really did try. Yeah,
he tried, and um, I think you know, I think
that bothered him a lot, because since I've been out,
I took him, went out to eat him and his
wife and me and my girl, and and he just
(34:58):
told me, he's all like this bothered me for a
long time. Even before the district attorney called him forward
and asked him about the case, he said, when they
called him forward and asked him about the case after
almost thirty years, he said, do you want the same
story or you want the truth? And they said no,
we want the truth. That's when he told him the
truth and I was let out. But he told me
(35:19):
he was seeing a psych service person for many years
over that because he couldn't sleep in it was nothing
he could do. Yeah, that's a hell of a thing
to carry around with you. And it's beautiful actually that
you connected with him. You know, that says a lot
about your character, because I think a lot of people
would all the grudge and be easy to understand why
(35:39):
they would. So. On December eighteenth, prosecutor's father response in
suffering superior court that supported a new trial and your
immediate at least from prison. It's said, and this is powerful,
and this is a quote in summary, the single identification
witnesses credible recantation of his identification testimony, the substantial likelihood
that the unnecessar serially suggestive identification procedure could have resulted
(36:03):
in a misidentification of the defendant, and the prejudicial impact
of the manner in which the codefendant statement was presented
to the jury cast real doubt on the justice of
the conviction end quote. So District Attorney Rachel Rollins then
filed an emergency petition on December with the state's Supreme
Judicial Court, and on December twenty three, the very next day,
(36:26):
after hearing from the state and your attorney's associate, Justice
Scott Kafker, ordered you're released from prison that very day.
And here's an incredible quote from Mr Thompson to a
great attorney. He said, a tremendous amount of government resources
goes into convicting people of serious crimes, as it should,
but there are almost no resources available to people who
(36:47):
have been wrongfully convicted. We know there are many people
who been in this situation and has been his character
and determination that have made the difference. Wow. Okay, so
the day, what was that moment? Like, I was happy
I came home, but I came home in the middle
of COVID wasn't no jobs. Everything we shut down. And
(37:14):
you know, even though the state they let you out
after almost thirty years, they just out the door. We
made a mistake here. They leave out the door. They
don't give you no type of competence. I mean, if
you put someone there wrongfully and admitted, and you open
the door for him, you can't send them home with nothing.
Just that Some people I had a family, so I
went there, but some people don't have that. You know.
(37:36):
That's that's a very important point. And it's something that's
troubled me for a long long time and it's been
a significant animize energy trying to, you know, help to
build ramps for people coming out who don't have that
access like you did it, you know, because it's it's
insane like and it's absolutely insane. So we closed our
(37:58):
show every week the exact same way. This is where
I first of all, thank you again. I'm gonna turn
my microphone off, leave yours on, and just kick back
in my chair and let Amy Ony don't you go first,
and let Robert take us out for any final thoughts
you want to share with me in our audience. I'm
grateful that you know, at long last, the d a's
(38:21):
office did the right thing and met their obligations and
turned over the exculpatory evidence that they turned over in
Robert's case that got us back into court. And I
have hope going forward that we can have more conviction
integrity and learn from the wrongful convictions across the nation
(38:42):
um and recognize the flaws and the system for what
they are and fix them. And if it were not
for people opening up their minds and deciding that they're
going to do the right thing, I'm not sure Robert
would be here right now. You can have very tenacious advocates,
but you need all system actors to be honest about
(39:06):
the past and honest about what needs to be done
in the present. And so I moved forward, you know
from Robert's conviction and exoneration with great hope that the
same relief can come to others. As for me, I'm
happy to be here. I love Amy, I love John,
(39:26):
I love Linda. It came into my life and jj
for the better. I come down here. I was talking
to all these men women down here that went through
similar trials and tribulations, and you get a sense of
understanding that it's kind of like unique class because you
got the advocates here, you've got the media here, you've
got the family here. So it was just one big
(39:47):
happy and joy is. It's like one big family here.
So I noticed this and I told Amy this today.
This field, as far as litigate and post conviction appeals
and actual inns, exenres and all lack is well dominated
by females. And you know what, we as men have
to take our hats off to him and say thank
(40:09):
you very much. There's a lot of males, but then
you know it's dominated by females. That's because there's no
manchus in the room when it comes to female They
just want to get the job accomplished and they have.
That's why it's so packed down here this year. Thank
(40:29):
you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank
our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliver and Kevin Wardis.
With research by Lila Robinson. The music in this production
was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
(40:50):
wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
all three platforms, you can also follow me on both
TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason plom Ralevul Conviction is
the production of Lava for Good podcasts in association with
Signal Company Number one m
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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