This special edition of Wrongful Conviction was recorded at the 2017 Innocence Network Conference in San Diego, CA, where 170 exonerees and 750 members of the innocence movement gathered to honor newly freed people and learn about the latest developments in freeing the wrongfully convicted. Part Two features interviews with Kristine Bunch and Obie Anthony. Kristine Bunch was 22 years old and pregnant when she was charged with setting a fire that claimed the life of her three-year-old son, Anthony, on June 30, 1995, in a trailer home they shared in Decatur County, IN. She was sentenced to concurrent prison terms of 60 years for murder and 50 years for arson and languished behind bars for more than 17 years until her exoneration in 2012. Obie Anthony was 19 years old when he was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison in 1995. There was no physical evidence connecting him to the murder, and prosecutors relied on the testimony of John Jones, a convicted killer and pimp who ran a house of prostitution near the scene of the crime. He was exonerated in 2011 after serving 17 years in prison. Obie Anthony is the founder and president of Exonerated Nation, a non-profit organization that offers exonerees a variety of support services so that they may successfully transition to life outside of prison and reintegrate back into society. His activism was instrumental in the passage of California AB 672 in October 2015, now known as Obie’s Law, which requires the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation and the DMV to provide up to one year of transitional services including job training, housing assistance, and mental health services to all eligible exonerees released from state prison.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
With the police banging on the door open up. The
choice to be in that lineup was the last choice
I made as a free man. A year later, I
ended up writing the system. I'm going to be one
of those people who everyone in the world is going
to think as a monster or suspect as a monster
for the rest of my life, and I'm just gonna
have to come to peace with that. Somebody was able
(00:28):
to look at my picture in a database and say
that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't. I overheard
three of the jailer's discussing what part they might have
to play in my hanging. They had been told that
two prison officers would have to participate in my execution,
and I walked back inside that prison for the last time.
(00:48):
All hell broke loose. But Welcome to another episode of
Ronfall Conviction with Jason Flamm. This is part two of
the San Diego series, where we'll be doing shorter interviews
than usual because we have so many incredible people here
(01:11):
at the Innis's Network conference. Today, I'll be interviewing Christine
Bunch and Obie Anthony. The tragedy for Christine Bunch began
when a fire in this Greensburg mobile home killed her
three year old son. The mother who spent nearly seventeen
years in prison for arson and murder after state fire
investigators hit evidence that could have cleared her, Christine Bunch
(01:33):
has maintained her innocence all along years of anguish for
a crime she says she did not commit. Now over
all charges were eventually dropped against Christine Bunch after the
original reports surface, and Indiana mother who spent sixteen years
in prison in the killing of her young son is
free tonight after charges against her are dropped. Christine, welcome,
Thank you. We are in the sunshine in San Diego
(01:56):
where we are broadcasting from the Innocence Network Difference, which
is a conference where we bring together this year. I
think we have two drees. Yes, we do, with people
from the movement, social workers, attorneys, counselors, teachers, law students,
law students, press. It's really it's I mean, the amount
(02:18):
of positive energy that's being generated here this weekend is remarkable.
Wouldn't you say it's incredible and you are right in
the middle of it. I don't know your energy is
so incredible. So Christine was wrongfully convicted in one of
the worst possible scenarios, which is that she lost her child.
Her three year old son, Anthony, was killed in a
(02:39):
fire in your home. And we know now, and I
think they knew then that the arson science is not
really science. Not only did they know that, but also
they really knew that this was not arson. Why they
felt they wanted to go after you in the way
they did. I don't know the world I would understand,
because it's like trying to try to understand evil. But
(03:01):
one way or another, you were wrongfully convicted. And this
Innocence Network conference is about overcoming and triumphing, and and
you are certainly a great example of that. First, let's
go back to that awful time and just give the
audience a sense of what was going on. You were
You were very young at the time, right. I was
twenty one and a single mother, working, going to school,
(03:21):
and I had my three year old, and so my
life was just busy and full. And one morning I
woke up and was surprised because I thought it was
foggy in the house, and in truth, it was on fire.
And it takes a minute for your brain to realize
what's happening, what what you're doing in that moment, because
(03:46):
you're just frozen with fear, and it's like your mind
goes blank. And then it's like you're running through mud
trying to figure out what do I do? And I'm
throwing things on it because you always here in school
smother it, but we don't realize that the materials we
use now are synthetics and they just melt. They don't
smother it. It's burning in your hands. So I ran
(04:10):
out the door to get help and fed the fire.
When I went out, oxygen came in and made it
even bigger. But you're just panicked, thinking I've got to
get in there, I've got to do something. So then
I broke a window with his tricycle and tried to
climb in, and by that time the flames were coming
through the roof. They took me to the hospital, and
(04:34):
of course I'm asking did you find him? Because I
couldn't find him. It never occurred to me that he
wasn't coming out alive. And that simple statement was used
against me at my trial because I asked, did you
find him? Like they said, I knew he was already dead,
but you just don't think that things will happen to
(04:56):
you like that. There's nothing in the phrase did you
find him that says to me, did you find a
dead body? I mean, they twist these things in so
many ways, and it's so weird too. I Mean, we
see over and over again in wrongful conviction cases, especially
cases like yours, where they say, well, you didn't react
the way we think you should have. You were too upset,
(05:18):
you weren't upset enough. I mean, how is anyone supposed
to know how you're going to react? Everyone reacts differently
in all types of panic situations. Right, This beyond patty,
This is terror, This is sheer terror. You've almost lost
your life in the process of losing your son you
don't even know, and your home and you just woke
up and add that type of people. Most people, they
(05:40):
just wake up. They don't even know what to do.
They they stumble around looking for the coffee machine. Right.
I mean, here you are just waking up and the
house is on fire and everything that you're trying to
do to help is backfiring, right, because because who the
hell would know? Right? I mean, yeah, they teach us
a little bit in school, right, throw a thing on it.
But I mean it's not like you took fire tray,
meaning they weren't you weren't a volunteer firefighter or anything
(06:02):
like that. Right, So now the sort of witch hunt
or whatever you want to call it starts. They decided
that this is something they want to pursue. They're going
to get this. Mom, you go to trial, did you
think that you were going to be vindicated? Do you
think that it was curtains? I mean they had these
arson investigators and all these supposed experts saying all this
(06:25):
stuff about these excellerents, which we now know not only
isn't it real science, but also wasn't true. But what
were you thinking. You're just a kid indicator Indiana, right right,
I mean you're always taught the police or your friends
they're going to find out the truth. You know, they
would never do anything wrong. So I went to court
thinking I'm going to go home, They're going to see
(06:48):
the truth. They're going to see me that I didn't
do this. And then when they said guilty, I I
was just in shock. I just blanked. And everybody's trying
to ask me questions on the way out going to
the police station, and I mean I'm still registering what
(07:10):
they just said to me, let alone trying to answer
your questions. So I'm just looking at them and it's
just a blur. Right, And this is Christine. This is
what we see on TV all the time, right, the
people that said, the cameras, the reporters yelling, and they're
all and now they're all part of this mob mentality. Right,
You're stuck in a nightmare that would be unimaginable to
(07:32):
anyone who hasn't been through at then you're sent to prison,
sentenced to I was sentenced to sixty years for murder,
fifty for arson, and they ran them concurrently, so it
was just the sixty years, just sixty, just sixty, right,
and you were twenty one, so at one you would
have come out on your walker and maybe maybe you're
(07:56):
So you go to prison, and go to prison, and
now you're pregnant. I'm pregnant. I was released on bond
when it came back the test results came back that
it wasn't gasoline, because they thought I'd use gasoline to
set the fire. So when those results came back negative
for gasoline, my judge put me out on bond. That
would have seemed like an appropriate time to drop the charges,
(08:18):
but they decided to put you on on they put
me out on bond, and I feel like it wasn't
the best thing, but the best thing came out of it,
because when I came out, I I was doing all
the wrong things. I was taking whatever anybody gave me.
I was drinking. I honestly didn't care if I woke up.
(08:41):
I lost everything. I mean, finding out I was pregnant
with Tony changed my life, and I changed my life
to take care of my son and give him everything
that I could give him. And when I lost him,
I didn't want to live. I wanted to be numb.
I didn't want to feel, and I was very reckless.
(09:03):
And I met a guy and spent some time with him,
and he was feeding me whatever. I wanted to be numb.
And then I started getting really sick and found out
that I was pregnant, and I didn't think that I
could have anymore. So that was kind of my miracle moment,
and I changed everything and started focusing on fighting because
(09:27):
I had a son to fight for. I had something
to live for at that moment. And this is a really,
I think interesting part of the story in that you
gave birth in prison, and as we spoke about before,
there's different protocols in different places in the country, in
the world. There's no good answer for how do you
(09:49):
deal with a baby in prison and having a child
yanked away, whether it's on the twenty four hours in
as what happened to you for three years later like
those that that last period of time, like counting down
the minutes or the second I can't even imagine. It's
just so horrible. But in Indiana, their policy was twenty
(10:12):
four hours and then kiss goodbye. Yes you're going back
to the facility, and the baby's going home. My family
took my son and they had him right over to
the prison because I passed them on my way back
out to be transferred to the facility, and both of
us weren't supposed to be released until the next day.
(10:32):
So I passed my dad and I'm I'm sobbing and
telling him, don't leave my baby here. I can't lose
another baby. You gotta get my baby. So the doctor
that actually delivered him helped my family to get a
car seat and blankets so they could take him right
then because they had everything for the next day. And
(10:54):
then he brought him straight over to the prison, so
that I wouldn't know that they had him, and I
did have to worry. That was at least a small
blessing that you were able to have family and know
that your your baby son was going to be taken
care of and protected and loved, and you got to
have visitation with him ten hours a month. Was that
(11:16):
how it worked out? You get ten hours a month
in the regular visiting room where you can't really do anything.
You have to be sitting in a chair, so I
could hold him on my lap, But it took a
while for us to change the policy where I could
get on the floor and do blocks with him on
the table or cars. But when I first got there,
you sat in the chair. Your family went and got
(11:39):
chips or a coke for you. You couldn't move, and
if he needed something like his diaper changed or to
be fed, my family would have to get up and
go out into the outer court or and take care
of that there. That couldn't be done in the visiting room.
So I didn't really have any hands on until six
months in when they opened the Family Present Racial program
(12:01):
and our children could come in for one on one
visits with us. And so then I got an extra
ten hours a month just for him. Yeah, that's and
that's something I want to highlight is that these programs
in the prisons that provide a little glimpse of humanity
in an otherwise cold and cruel and purely punitive system
(12:23):
that we have here is so important. And in your case,
I can see you lighting up talking about it. I mean,
what a difference that makes, you know, so, and obviously
what a difference it did make, and so ultimately your
case was overturned sixteen years later. Yes, let's just talk
for a moment about what that was like. Vindication, freedom, Um,
(12:47):
I mean, just the new evidence that came out in
the case. You know, my son reached a carbon monoxide
level that was new fire science from a forensic toxicologist.
And hearing her say that I was in the very
next room and was probably half of that level and hallucinating.
(13:09):
Everything's blurry, everything slow, your sluggish. I mean that made
me feel better because you always think you can do more.
And then finding out they falsified an a t F
report that right there, that was vindication for me. If
I had never walked out, at least I knew then
(13:30):
it wasn't It wasn't an arson, he wasn't murdered. It
was just an accident, and that I think was the
best moment. Walking out was good, but it's scary, and
(13:53):
I want to talk about that. And the Center for
Wrongful Convictions played a big role in your exoneration, so
I want to give them respect, and I'm pretty creation
from both of us because without them you wouldn't be here.
And your advocate was Betsy Marks right as well, so
there's there's a number of heroes in this situation um
and ultimately you walked out, and that's what I really
(14:13):
want to focus on because we're here at the Innocence
Network conference and watching people heal and recover and transform themselves.
It's such a powerful thing. Every time I see it,
it just makes me want to do more and more
and everything I can to help and promote this this work.
So when you get out, then what sixteen years a
(14:35):
long time? Yes, very long time. So what were the
things like, how did where did you go? How did
you reconnect? And what could we as a society do
differently to help others who are coming out after this
type of ordeal. I think it's important for people to
know that you don't have to give a whole lot
out of your wallet to make a difference for us,
(14:58):
if we just had people that would give us time.
I mean, I didn't know, and it was like the
most embarrassing thing for me. I'm thirty nine years old.
It took me ten minutes to get out of the
bathroom because they had removed the knobs on the water
faucets and I didn't know how to turn it on.
I just thankfully finally flicked something yes, and so it
(15:25):
came on, and I was like, oh my god, and
I'm in sears by the time I come out, and
there's my brother saying, what's wrong? Are you sick? Is
there a problem? I said, I didn't know how to
turn on the water. And so things like that make
me want to stay at home because I I don't
want to go out and be embarrassed and tell people
I don't know how to do this. I was waiting
for a full service gas station and we don't have
(15:47):
those anymore. So things that I've never learned how to do,
like change my oil or check my entire pressure, I
now have to go find somebody to do that because
I can't just pull up and say fill it up
and can you check everything? Do you remember what time
you were actually released? I want to say it's four
or five in the afternoon, and what did you do?
(16:08):
Where'd you go? So first we went I didn't talk
to any of those reporters that called me a baby killer,
and I gave one interview with Sandra Chapman because she
had interviewed me in the prison and helped push my
case forward, so she was the only exclusive that I gave.
And we went to a park and I got to
walk in the grass barefoot, and we had a nice
(16:29):
time there, and then we went over to Bistro three
ten and I had champagne with my attorneys and they
made me some scallops because seafood was my favorite. They
asked what kind of food I wanted. I said colorful,
and she said what do you mean? And I said
everything in there is kind of brown and gray and
it's just not pretty. I said, I want to eat
(16:52):
vegetables that are colored and nice, and cheese and different
kinds of things. So they set me up with hummus
and peta and I'm not all of it. There was
a spicy that was kind of red and I would
have gotten a strawberry or maybe like I had that
for dessert. I had a whole plate of different fruits
(17:13):
and cream cheese dip and then whipped cream. It was incredible. Yeah,
that sounds incredible. And then you went where And then
I went to my mother's house where my where my
son was staying. And I was up most the night
because I had never gotten to see my baby sleep.
That's an incredible visual. And I see you tearing up.
I mean, I'm trying not to myself. And now you
(17:36):
watch them sleep, you get up the next day. Is
its starting to feel real? At that point it's feeling real,
it's also feeling frightening. I mean, the only thing I
have is my literally my prison uniform and white white
tennis shoes in a bag. I had no clothes, I
have no hygienes. I don't have a toothbrush. And I'm thinking,
(17:58):
I have no money. How am I supposed to get
these things? I have no vehicle, how am I supposed
to get around? And thank goodness, I mean three o'clock
in the afternoon, when my brother got off of work,
he um came and picked me up and we went
out to eat and I literally again had no idea
what to order. Decisions are so real hard because for
(18:23):
so long I haven't made any and I'm trying to
branch out and get better with that, but it's still
it's still an issue that I go through. So we
ate and I had a peach frozen margarita and a steak,
and then he took me shopping, and so we we
went into this clothing store and there's all these colors,
(18:44):
and he's like, what do you want? While I've had
nothing but white and khaki. I have no idea, and
so my eyes bug out and he was like, okay,
he said, you go in the fitting room. I'm gonna
bring you outfits. So he brought me back outfits and
the things that I put on, said this fits good,
and I like this. They went into the keep pile
and everything else went back. And then when we left there,
(19:06):
he took me to an old fashioned candy store and
got me some candy that we had when we were kids.
And then we went to a wine store and I
tasted some wine and he picked up a couple of
bottles of that, and then we went to Walmart, and
at that point, I'm like, wow, you know, I'm over
the moon with everything I'm seeing in Walmarts now super Walmart.
(19:31):
And we go to pick out shampoo and he's like,
what do you want? Well, I've only had two choices
and there's a whole aisle. I have no idea. So
here's my my brother and we're smelling him up and
down the aisle. He said, we'll just pick what smells good.
So we went through and we found something that I liked.
And so by the time we get through there and
(19:51):
I'm like, you know, I need some feminine products. There's
a whole aisle of that. And he's like, what do
you want. Well, I've only had one in sixteen years,
and I don't know. And at this point I'm I'm done.
I'm wiped out. I can't speak, and here I start crying.
And so he looks at me and he was like,
it's okay. He said, my wife uses this, and he
(20:13):
puts it in the car and he said, and if
you don't like it, he said, we'll come back every
day until we find what works for you. And so
he took me to his house and I had wine
and he made me homemade guacamole, and I sat visiting
with him. Yes, it's colorful. And then I ended up
spending the night with him. And then the next day
is when he took me to the movie theater and
(20:34):
I couldn't turn on the water. So he made it good.
And he's the one that between him and my son,
they kept me going out instead of hiding in the
house and not dealing with people. And they helped me
get my license. I had to have a learner's permit again.
They taught me how to build up my credits, how
(20:55):
to use the internet, social media awesome. What is your
social media? Do you want to plug it on the podcast?
Do you want more people to follow you or are
you more of a private kind of person. No, I
mean people can follow me. I'm on Twitter, Christine Bunch
Christine Bunch k R I S T I N E
b U N c H on Twitter. And I do
want to talk about your organization, Justice for just Us. Yes,
(21:19):
you had a wonderful support group, which was your family,
but many people have nothing. People are in for thirty years,
they come out, they've got nobody left. It's a catchy name,
Justice for just Us. What's just us? Just us is?
It's a combination I have Juan Rivera, who's another Agonree.
He spent twenty one years and he is in Illinois.
I'm in Indiana, and we decided we wanted to do
(21:42):
something because people come out and they have no one.
You spend forty years in there, most of your family's
probably died, and there's no one to meet you. There's
no one to take you out shopping and do the
things that my brother did. So we decided that it
was up to us to bring justice to other Agonorees.
So we're getting ready to put in for our non
for profit that will probably go in a couple of weeks,
(22:04):
and our hope is that we can continue to train
and hire other axonres in their states and just make
our community aware of what people need when they walk out,
how they can help. Everybody can help. If you have
a barber shop, give an axonre a haircut, If you
have a clothing shop, give them a new outfit so
they can go get do an interview. So we hope
(22:28):
that we can just keep educating through our speaking events
and bring people in to help. And even if you
give a gift card of twenty dollars, that's a shirt
for someone that's something easy. You don't have to donate
thousands of dollars to make a difference. Just taking someone
on the bus. Many people listening probably saying, well, but
I don't know how to find that person, So I mean,
would you recommend they go to an innocence project website,
(22:50):
maybe a local innocence project website or because the innocence
projects all around the absolutely you can go to any
of the innocence projects and websites and find ways that
you can volunteer and help and help with our axonorees.
Our Facebook page is just is I S four and
it's the number just us. Okay, so it's just is
(23:13):
j U S T I S the number four just
us on Facebook. We also have a website under that
name as well. Okay, good, So get involved. Christine Bunch
has been our wonderful, amazing guest today. You can't see
her smile, but she has a magnetic smile and if
you were here with me, you would absolutely want to
(23:34):
give her a hug, which is exactly what I'm going
to do as soon as we get off the air.
So thank you Christine again for being here and for
sharing your experience, strength and hope, and now let's get
right into it with the one and only Bobie Anthony.
Anthony and Cole were convicted twenty years ago of a
(23:54):
shooting death in South l A. Back Anthony's legal team
says a pinpoint at the finger at the two men.
They were released four years ago after a key witness
for Canada's testimony the pimp later Recanada's story. Their lawyers
then found out an l A. Times reporter had taken
home shell casings from the murder scene that could have
pointed to another suspect. Prosecutors and police refused to admit
(24:16):
that they did anything wrong in this case. There was
not one piece of physical evidence and that's the key.
That's what the police did wrong in this case. They
ignored the evidence of innocence and twisted the evidence to
point towards guilt because they wanted to clear a case.
The two detectives that helped put Obie Anthony and his
codefended behind bars, one still works for the l A.
(24:36):
P D. According to Obie Anthony's lawyers and the judge
that exonerated him, evidence showed they were never here the
night of the killing. I would be welcome to the
show thank you for having me. You were sentenced to
life in prison, life put out the positive parole life,
like the no joke version of life, like some life,
like the kidding and like the one that you know,
we're not even talking about talking to you forever, like
(24:59):
it's no parole. And you were framed. I was actually
framed by the detective Marcella Win. They had information from
the very onset that me and my co defended at
the time. Reggie Cole wasn't involved. It was her. Plus
it was her Win on that end of the bargain
because she has in the law and the eyes of
her co workers are successful incarceration and now it's just
(25:20):
pinning in a conviction. So it was her who actually
framed me. And how did it come to be that
you even became a suspect in this because it's funny
looking at you now, I mean you can't see him
on the radio, but he's a very dapper individual, a
very good looking gentleman. You know, he's got his here
at the at the conference where everybody's on the casual
(25:42):
He's got the tie and the vest and the sharp
looking at shirt and everything. Um, So I mean, how
did you get wrapped up in this nightmare. What was
it like for you? You were you were just a
young man trying to make it in the world. You know,
I don't want to mislead your listeners. I grew up
in the inner city of Los Angeles, California, South central.
I was involved in gangs. But actually got me involved
in this case here that got me wrongfully convicted was
(26:05):
because they allegedly got anonymous call saying that a guy
made a bad move on forty nine Street and hung
up the phone. From that phone call, the young lady
Marcello win the car gave the name of a Baby Day.
She said that she ran the name Baby Day through
the gang database and she had she had hits with
(26:25):
the name Baby Day, but it was multiple hits, and
she determined that the Baby Day that she was looking
for was a guy named Michael Miller out of all
of those Baby Days. And then come to find out
he was incarcerated at that time with me. And so
that's how they got their hands on my picture. Well
and this and it was a very violent time and
they were interested in processing these cases and closing them
(26:48):
correct that time, you had a news reporter by the
name of Miles Corn who was acting as a following
on reporter with the l a p D at that time,
and that's what he was writing in reporting on for
was the gang violence in south central Los Angeles and
the murder rate in which the Homicide Division, in other words,
their cases and and and what they had. And so
(27:09):
he had the privilege at that point to write along
with Marcello Win and Pete Resistance, the detective that was
involved in my homicide case, which turned out to be
a plus because that reporter reported what he's seen as
he's seen it, while those investigative detectives that work for
(27:31):
the police department left out all of the pertinent information
which was pertinent to prove my innocence. So it was
it was, you know, it's amazing, unfortunately, this was well,
it is common, Yes, I mean common. I'm trying to
even find the right word for it. It's like it's pervasive,
this kind of behavior among it's criminal. I'll call it criminal.
(27:53):
It is criminal, criminal as it is, as it is common, unfortunately,
and the fact is that it's hard for people to
understand why and how it goes so wrong when the
people who we pay to protect us, that's protect and serve, right,
go on this rogue mission. And I know, you know
(28:14):
they say power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, And
I think they become desensitized to a certain extent when
they're dealing with one case after another and they start
it starts to become like a just a system, and
it becomes very inconvenient when they start to realize that
they got the wrong guy, but they've already put the
work in. But it's weird that And I know it's
got to be weird from your perspective because you were
(28:35):
in for what seventeen years, right, So how they could
just so callously literally throw somebody's life away because you're
missing out on I mean, seventeen years and arguably those
could be the best seventeen years of your life. Arguably,
I mean you're taking consideration. I walked out of the
prison at the age of thirty seven. I walked into
(28:56):
the institution at the age of nineteen, So you're right,
my young adult life was the time for me to
have kids. One four six. I think for the woman
that cuts it off at nine and said something about
the eggs, I don't know. I don't know if they're
true or not, but at some point or another you
(29:18):
have to realize and appreciate the fact that those same
dilemmas plague demand to his count drops and it drops
even more drastically because he's been affected by institution who's
poising at him. You gotta take that in mind. You
have the some of the most healthier specimens to walk
into institutions and come out rid of with diseases and
play with things. In whether words, they can't get rid
of why because the medical program that they have inside
(29:42):
is designed to do just that, break their body down,
and so they don't get the health care And what's
the great public think that they're getting and that the
public is paying for. Yeah, yeah, to keep that in mind.
In other words, yeah, keep that in mind that the
public is paying for right, So the public is contributing
funds to this institution to take care of medically mentally. Uh,
(30:04):
these individuals who have been a cost rated. But nevertheless
those things are not happening. They're passing out thor zen
and sine quons as those Halloween and it was candy
for trick or treat, And we know that thorzin is
a medication that they used to lobottomize people. Yeah. And
we had Jason Baldwin on the show. He was talking
about the Thorzine shuffle and how he was avoiding that
(30:26):
being placed in that situation at all costs, even at
his own extreme risk to his own personal safety, because
they offered to put him in there for his own protection.
He said, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah. Absolutely. Reason
why is because he recognized that was part of the mechanisms,
in other words, to destroy his body so his spirit
wouldn't have the strength to fight to get out. You
got to fight to get your body right, and then
you fight everything else. Let me come back to this
(30:47):
only because it's always incredible to me the spirit of
the people that are in this building right now, right
and and you're one of two hundred men and women
who have been through these unbelievable ordeals. How did you
find the strength to continue to fight? I mean, you're
just a young guy, a young black guy in a
system that's full of young black guys, right, And I know,
(31:08):
and I know you're focused on that and the disparity
between how the justice system treats white people and minorities, right,
And it's it's an American shame, but the American tradition
and as American pleasure. It's however, it's a shame for
those individuals who has to suffer, but for those individuals
who inflict that suffers a pleasure in the desire, I
(31:30):
hate to think of it that way, but not what
they're doing. And that's what they've been doing, and and
it's knowledge as though to the rest of the people
of somehow another are not even ignorant about those things.
They just try to fight against what they're doing, versus
creating a situation to stop what they're doing, to totally
to have kind of thinking. And it's crazy because we
know that in the rest of the civilized world, Western Europe,
(31:50):
in places like that, they treat incarceration as rehabilitation. We
treated here as punishment. And it's and it's it just
doesn't make any sense, you know. I often say, like
when I'm on a politician or somebody like that I'm
talking to about these issues, I say, if another country
treated our citizens the way we treat our citizens, we'd
invade them. They'd be like, listen to motherfucker's we're coming out.
We got tanks, we got planes. No, no, no, they
(32:11):
are so so taking consideration, they are invading us. They
are doing it so right now. In the local police
department they got tanks. Yeah, yeah, in the local police department,
they do all of those things. So they are they
are raiding us. However, but what did they who they raiding.
They are raiding the inner city, and they're raiding the
inner city for black bodies and bodies of color, and
they put them in prison for long periods of time.
(32:31):
So you know, they think, you know, that's not they're
doing it. It's a war on the poor they're doing Yeah,
there's no question. But let's go back to that because
I think anyone would say if I was in that
situation that you found yourself and not even like fifteen
of life, like life, natural life, you're sentenced to life.
(32:52):
Society said, here's what You're gonna die in prison, Bye bye.
Nobody cares about you. You're gone, right, and you have
no resource at your disposal. It's not like you have
a rich uncle who's like, I'm gonna hire the best,
you know, like I'm gonna go get you know whoever
it is, the top defense attorneys. I'm gonna get a
squad out there. You know you don't have money to
hire and private investigator to uncover this. I'm gonna say
(33:13):
a nice word mouthfeasance, this, this corruption, this this you know,
this frame job that that was perpetrated on you. So
where did you find the strength to say, I'm not
gonna give up. I'm gonna find a way out of
what is it? An impossible situation? I gave up on myself.
You gave up on yourself? What you mean? Gave up myself?
(33:34):
And I'll relied on the creator. So you found faith?
Wasn't found faith. I didn't have to find it. I
just had to give up to you that everyone else
has seen and enjoy to you, there was always been
at me and that gave me the power to see
hope so that I can go towards it. If you
don't know what's going on in here, you ain't tripping
on nothing else. You're too busy concerned about the attachments
(33:56):
is around you. So how did how did you find it?
When did you find it? Like? You didn't go, you
didn't go, No, no, no, absolutely I found it when
the judge called me down, when they called me down
to the county jail, I was I was sitting into
county jail facing life without the possibly of parole. It
was doing that time because they called me down to
the county and they told me that I was being
charged with a murder, three attempted murders with three attempted
(34:19):
robbers with special circles. I'm like, what the where eld
is that? I was like, are you sure you got
the right CDC? And I'm booking number right there. I mean, like,
my last three is six seven six? Is that's six
seven six? He said, yeah, So I found it the
day the judge told me because I was facing the
death penunty in this that I was facing the death penunty.
(34:40):
You know. I'm like, and I know that I didn't
do it, and I'm facing the death penty on this
side of the gate, and on this side of the gate,
I'm looking at life without the possible of parole. So
I didn't find anything that stuff kind of sport. He
just you know, that's that. That's that. I think that's
what the buddhas doing them is in when they go
(35:01):
on that thing and they're sit in their cave for
a little while and they're trying to find some kind
of enlightenment and they get that boom. Sometimes people happen,
they get that boom when they get traumataged because they
get hit ball card there in an accident, they get
that boom they see the light. Well, I did get
hit by bad truck. Didn't hit me physically, but as
you see today, it bragged me on the inside, crush
(35:25):
every inch of my spirit. But I rebuilded it though,
so you didn't. It's amazing to see you because honestly,
and again we're here in person. You're out there listening
to his voice, but just running into in the hallways
here and stuff. I mean, you gotta smile. That lights
up the room. Obie's here with his wife who looks
like a movie star, you know what I mean, and
(35:46):
like it's yeah, I mean so so, somehow or other,
you did prevail. Ultimately, your conviction was overturned, justice was
finally done. Seventeen years later you walked out into society
of free and but you still had to rebuild. How
did you get from that to this where you look like, uh,
I mean you look like thank you, thank you said
(36:09):
I got got I got right there. Because again, it's
about perception. How you see things the way I took
it in. And the way that I took my exoneration in,
it wasn't that justice had finally came and then it
was that it had done. No, it was just justice
had just begun. And so I was born in that instance,
and it gave me a sense of renewing, like man,
(36:30):
I can do this, I can do that, and knocking
like why am Ina be up? Why am I upset
with you about this crazy stuff over here? When I
got the opportunity to use that same energy to be
happy in love and kinda get you figured in places
like that, you don't waste your time, no nonsense. Happy
times now, happy times. Yeah, you came out in two
(36:51):
thousand and eleven, about five and a half years ago. Yes,
and now you're here in San Diego. The future looks
looks good. I mean, obviously there's the scars are not
going to heal in five years and not going to
heal in fifteen years. That you know, But you're like
extremely optimistic and energetic individual. Anybody who bumps into you
and the lobby's gonna pick up on that. And it's
(37:13):
inspiring to everybody that's here to see you up on
stage last night dancing with other gnrees or whatever it
might be. And it does. I hope you know that
it has the real impact not only on your peers,
but also on all of those of us who are
in the movement who come out of this meeting you
and wanting to go do more and devote more time
(37:34):
and more energy and more resources to fight this fight
and and fix the system so that the next Obie
never has to go through what you went through. And
now you're here as an example of what's possible. And
if you could share what you've learned and what you
want people to understand about you, what would it be.
It's a major difference. And believe in annoying transition that stage,
(37:59):
it's the life to living. It is in a no,
you live through the no. You survive through the opposite.
You survived through that, You survived through your belief because
it gets pushed upon constantly. So you survive and you
(38:19):
have to tolerate, and you do those things. But when
you transition to the no, you live in it and
you exercise the right of the fact of the no.
And that's what I want people to take I say
all the time I go around, I get a chance
to talk at you know, colleges and university and not
speaking high schools. And I'll talk to kids and not
first thing, I'll say, what's two plus two? They say
(38:41):
for it? I said, you know that, don't you? I
say yeah. I said, well, who do you believe in?
They say this? I said, why you just told me
too plus to it's for so why are you believing
this and not knowing it? You must know that which
you say is yours. I can't say I believe in
our marriage and the sanctity of our marriage and not
(39:05):
know the person that I'm saying that I have. I
believe that, so I have to know. So it's a transition,
and I that's why I want people to walk away
with it. Transition over to the no exercise the right
to believe, but say to that my worth is better
than that, and my nose solidifies me, and I moved
forward towards my objectives, towards my accomplishments because of my no.
(39:30):
My belief puts me in the want sort of scenario.
It makes me want things because of what I believe.
So take that. So it's it's really the power of knowing.
And that's why the innocents come home be because they
knew they're innocent. They knew that they would come home.
(39:51):
They didn't want to come home. I want to go home.
I want to go home. No, they say I'm going home.
I'm innocent. That's a powerful message and that think that
we can all learn from that, and I'm gonna have
to really process it. It's interesting because I've never heard
it phrased in that way. And you know, I've listened
and I've learned from so many incredible people, so many
(40:12):
spiritual people who've been through ordeals like what you've been through,
people from all walks of life. But I've never heard
anybody put it that way. And I think that, Like
I said, I'm really glad that you shared that. So
I'm glad you're here in San Diego. I'm glad to
be here with you. It's a beautiful day than you
can you get a shout out to Exonerated Nation. Exonerated Nation. Yeah,
is there anything else you want to do? You want
(40:34):
to plug your any social media or any other projects
that you're working on. Like, the only project that I'm
working on right now is Exonerated Nation. And other project
is a personal project, but perfect project. But my public
project is uh Exonerated Nation, and and that's what I'm
doing right now. So I just want to give a
shout out to Exonerated Nation and all those potential or
(40:57):
desired supporters. And how does people if they want to
learn more about Exonerated Nation A couple of different ways.
So I do have a website. It's called Degenerated Nation.
You can look it up online as a website. Also
have a Facebook pages. You can also go on dot com. Yeah,
dot com, you can go in there. I employ people
to follow and those things. But the only reason why
I actually to follow is because I need you to work.
(41:20):
You're following with no actions doesn't help. I need to
follow me so that we could dig this ground and
submit in justice as it's supposed to. You're following its action.
It's not a metaphorical situation to say I'm following him.
So what do you mean you're following them? All right?
(41:40):
What kind of following are you talking? Well? No, I
think kind of following. What you need to do you
need to describe, and when you describe your following, you
want to describe a support. I'm doing this, I'm doing that,
I'm doing this, and I'm doing that you gotta first
learn and get in. And the good news is I
think we're because of what's going on in this country
(42:00):
right now in the world when when what I call
the new age of activism, I think there's more people
than ever that want to get involved. They want to
learn from people like you. They want to help prevent
injustice and fight against this crazy situation that we find
ourselves in, not just in the in the criminal justice system,
but in general and make this world a better place.
And you're doing an incredible job, and I really appreciate
you sharing your experience, strength, and hope with our listening audience,
(42:25):
and I know it's going to have an impact on
many of them. So I hope that makes you feel good,
because it does, and I thank you for the opportunity,
and I really appreciate it. Don't forget to give us
a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.
And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and
(42:46):
I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate
and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show
is by three time OSCAR nomineon composer Jay Ralph. Be
sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
(43:09):
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Flam is a production the Lava for Good Podcasts in
association with Signal Company Number one
With the police banging on the door open up. The
choice to be in that lineup was the last choice
I made as a free man. A year later, I
ended up writing the system. I'm going to be one
of those people who everyone in the world is going
to think as a monster or suspect as a monster
for the rest of my life, and I'm just gonna
have to come to peace with that. Somebody was able
(00:28):
to look at my picture in a database and say
that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't. I overheard
three of the jailer's discussing what part they might have
to play in my hanging. They had been told that
two prison officers would have to participate in my execution,
and I walked back inside that prison for the last time.
(00:48):
All hell broke loose. But Welcome to another episode of
Ronfall Conviction with Jason Flamm. This is part two of
the San Diego series, where we'll be doing shorter interviews
than usual because we have so many incredible people here
(01:11):
at the Innis's Network conference. Today, I'll be interviewing Christine
Bunch and Obie Anthony. The tragedy for Christine Bunch began
when a fire in this Greensburg mobile home killed her
three year old son. The mother who spent nearly seventeen
years in prison for arson and murder after state fire
investigators hit evidence that could have cleared her, Christine Bunch
(01:33):
has maintained her innocence all along years of anguish for
a crime she says she did not commit. Now over
all charges were eventually dropped against Christine Bunch after the
original reports surface, and Indiana mother who spent sixteen years
in prison in the killing of her young son is
free tonight after charges against her are dropped. Christine, welcome,
Thank you. We are in the sunshine in San Diego
(01:56):
where we are broadcasting from the Innocence Network Difference, which
is a conference where we bring together this year. I
think we have two drees. Yes, we do, with people
from the movement, social workers, attorneys, counselors, teachers, law students,
law students, press. It's really it's I mean, the amount
(02:18):
of positive energy that's being generated here this weekend is remarkable.
Wouldn't you say it's incredible and you are right in
the middle of it. I don't know your energy is
so incredible. So Christine was wrongfully convicted in one of
the worst possible scenarios, which is that she lost her child.
Her three year old son, Anthony, was killed in a
(02:39):
fire in your home. And we know now, and I
think they knew then that the arson science is not
really science. Not only did they know that, but also
they really knew that this was not arson. Why they
felt they wanted to go after you in the way
they did. I don't know the world I would understand,
because it's like trying to try to understand evil. But
(03:01):
one way or another, you were wrongfully convicted. And this
Innocence Network conference is about overcoming and triumphing, and and
you are certainly a great example of that. First, let's
go back to that awful time and just give the
audience a sense of what was going on. You were
You were very young at the time, right. I was
twenty one and a single mother, working, going to school,
(03:21):
and I had my three year old, and so my
life was just busy and full. And one morning I
woke up and was surprised because I thought it was
foggy in the house, and in truth, it was on fire.
And it takes a minute for your brain to realize
what's happening, what what you're doing in that moment, because
(03:46):
you're just frozen with fear, and it's like your mind
goes blank. And then it's like you're running through mud
trying to figure out what do I do? And I'm
throwing things on it because you always here in school
smother it, but we don't realize that the materials we
use now are synthetics and they just melt. They don't
smother it. It's burning in your hands. So I ran
(04:10):
out the door to get help and fed the fire.
When I went out, oxygen came in and made it
even bigger. But you're just panicked, thinking I've got to
get in there, I've got to do something. So then
I broke a window with his tricycle and tried to
climb in, and by that time the flames were coming
through the roof. They took me to the hospital, and
(04:34):
of course I'm asking did you find him? Because I
couldn't find him. It never occurred to me that he
wasn't coming out alive. And that simple statement was used
against me at my trial because I asked, did you
find him? Like they said, I knew he was already dead,
but you just don't think that things will happen to
(04:56):
you like that. There's nothing in the phrase did you
find him that says to me, did you find a
dead body? I mean, they twist these things in so
many ways, and it's so weird too. I Mean, we
see over and over again in wrongful conviction cases, especially
cases like yours, where they say, well, you didn't react
the way we think you should have. You were too upset,
(05:18):
you weren't upset enough. I mean, how is anyone supposed
to know how you're going to react? Everyone reacts differently
in all types of panic situations. Right, This beyond patty,
This is terror, This is sheer terror. You've almost lost
your life in the process of losing your son you
don't even know, and your home and you just woke
up and add that type of people. Most people, they
(05:40):
just wake up. They don't even know what to do.
They they stumble around looking for the coffee machine. Right.
I mean, here you are just waking up and the
house is on fire and everything that you're trying to
do to help is backfiring, right, because because who the
hell would know? Right? I mean, yeah, they teach us
a little bit in school, right, throw a thing on it.
But I mean it's not like you took fire tray,
meaning they weren't you weren't a volunteer firefighter or anything
(06:02):
like that. Right, So now the sort of witch hunt
or whatever you want to call it starts. They decided
that this is something they want to pursue. They're going
to get this. Mom, you go to trial, did you
think that you were going to be vindicated? Do you
think that it was curtains? I mean they had these
arson investigators and all these supposed experts saying all this
(06:25):
stuff about these excellerents, which we now know not only
isn't it real science, but also wasn't true. But what
were you thinking. You're just a kid indicator Indiana, right right,
I mean you're always taught the police or your friends
they're going to find out the truth. You know, they
would never do anything wrong. So I went to court
thinking I'm going to go home, They're going to see
(06:48):
the truth. They're going to see me that I didn't
do this. And then when they said guilty, I I
was just in shock. I just blanked. And everybody's trying
to ask me questions on the way out going to
the police station, and I mean I'm still registering what
(07:10):
they just said to me, let alone trying to answer
your questions. So I'm just looking at them and it's
just a blur. Right, And this is Christine. This is
what we see on TV all the time, right, the
people that said, the cameras, the reporters yelling, and they're
all and now they're all part of this mob mentality. Right,
You're stuck in a nightmare that would be unimaginable to
(07:32):
anyone who hasn't been through at then you're sent to prison,
sentenced to I was sentenced to sixty years for murder,
fifty for arson, and they ran them concurrently, so it
was just the sixty years, just sixty, just sixty, right,
and you were twenty one, so at one you would
have come out on your walker and maybe maybe you're
(07:56):
So you go to prison, and go to prison, and
now you're pregnant. I'm pregnant. I was released on bond
when it came back the test results came back that
it wasn't gasoline, because they thought I'd use gasoline to
set the fire. So when those results came back negative
for gasoline, my judge put me out on bond. That
would have seemed like an appropriate time to drop the charges,
(08:18):
but they decided to put you on on they put
me out on bond, and I feel like it wasn't
the best thing, but the best thing came out of it,
because when I came out, I I was doing all
the wrong things. I was taking whatever anybody gave me.
I was drinking. I honestly didn't care if I woke up.
(08:41):
I lost everything. I mean, finding out I was pregnant
with Tony changed my life, and I changed my life
to take care of my son and give him everything
that I could give him. And when I lost him,
I didn't want to live. I wanted to be numb.
I didn't want to feel, and I was very reckless.
(09:03):
And I met a guy and spent some time with him,
and he was feeding me whatever. I wanted to be numb.
And then I started getting really sick and found out
that I was pregnant, and I didn't think that I
could have anymore. So that was kind of my miracle moment,
and I changed everything and started focusing on fighting because
(09:27):
I had a son to fight for. I had something
to live for at that moment. And this is a really,
I think interesting part of the story in that you
gave birth in prison, and as we spoke about before,
there's different protocols in different places in the country, in
the world. There's no good answer for how do you
(09:49):
deal with a baby in prison and having a child
yanked away, whether it's on the twenty four hours in
as what happened to you for three years later like
those that that last period of time, like counting down
the minutes or the second I can't even imagine. It's
just so horrible. But in Indiana, their policy was twenty
(10:12):
four hours and then kiss goodbye. Yes you're going back
to the facility, and the baby's going home. My family
took my son and they had him right over to
the prison because I passed them on my way back
out to be transferred to the facility, and both of
us weren't supposed to be released until the next day.
(10:32):
So I passed my dad and I'm I'm sobbing and
telling him, don't leave my baby here. I can't lose
another baby. You gotta get my baby. So the doctor
that actually delivered him helped my family to get a
car seat and blankets so they could take him right
then because they had everything for the next day. And
(10:54):
then he brought him straight over to the prison, so
that I wouldn't know that they had him, and I
did have to worry. That was at least a small
blessing that you were able to have family and know
that your your baby son was going to be taken
care of and protected and loved, and you got to
have visitation with him ten hours a month. Was that
(11:16):
how it worked out? You get ten hours a month
in the regular visiting room where you can't really do anything.
You have to be sitting in a chair, so I
could hold him on my lap, But it took a
while for us to change the policy where I could
get on the floor and do blocks with him on
the table or cars. But when I first got there,
you sat in the chair. Your family went and got
(11:39):
chips or a coke for you. You couldn't move, and
if he needed something like his diaper changed or to
be fed, my family would have to get up and
go out into the outer court or and take care
of that there. That couldn't be done in the visiting room.
So I didn't really have any hands on until six
months in when they opened the Family Present Racial program
(12:01):
and our children could come in for one on one
visits with us. And so then I got an extra
ten hours a month just for him. Yeah, that's and
that's something I want to highlight is that these programs
in the prisons that provide a little glimpse of humanity
in an otherwise cold and cruel and purely punitive system
(12:23):
that we have here is so important. And in your case,
I can see you lighting up talking about it. I mean,
what a difference that makes, you know, so, and obviously
what a difference it did make, and so ultimately your
case was overturned sixteen years later. Yes, let's just talk
for a moment about what that was like. Vindication, freedom, Um,
(12:47):
I mean, just the new evidence that came out in
the case. You know, my son reached a carbon monoxide
level that was new fire science from a forensic toxicologist.
And hearing her say that I was in the very
next room and was probably half of that level and hallucinating.
(13:09):
Everything's blurry, everything slow, your sluggish. I mean that made
me feel better because you always think you can do more.
And then finding out they falsified an a t F
report that right there, that was vindication for me. If
I had never walked out, at least I knew then
(13:30):
it wasn't It wasn't an arson, he wasn't murdered. It
was just an accident, and that I think was the
best moment. Walking out was good, but it's scary, and
(13:53):
I want to talk about that. And the Center for
Wrongful Convictions played a big role in your exoneration, so
I want to give them respect, and I'm pretty creation
from both of us because without them you wouldn't be here.
And your advocate was Betsy Marks right as well, so
there's there's a number of heroes in this situation um
and ultimately you walked out, and that's what I really
(14:13):
want to focus on because we're here at the Innocence
Network conference and watching people heal and recover and transform themselves.
It's such a powerful thing. Every time I see it,
it just makes me want to do more and more
and everything I can to help and promote this this work.
So when you get out, then what sixteen years a
(14:35):
long time? Yes, very long time. So what were the
things like, how did where did you go? How did
you reconnect? And what could we as a society do
differently to help others who are coming out after this
type of ordeal. I think it's important for people to
know that you don't have to give a whole lot
out of your wallet to make a difference for us,
(14:58):
if we just had people that would give us time.
I mean, I didn't know, and it was like the
most embarrassing thing for me. I'm thirty nine years old.
It took me ten minutes to get out of the
bathroom because they had removed the knobs on the water
faucets and I didn't know how to turn it on.
I just thankfully finally flicked something yes, and so it
(15:25):
came on, and I was like, oh my god, and
I'm in sears by the time I come out, and
there's my brother saying, what's wrong? Are you sick? Is
there a problem? I said, I didn't know how to
turn on the water. And so things like that make
me want to stay at home because I I don't
want to go out and be embarrassed and tell people
I don't know how to do this. I was waiting
for a full service gas station and we don't have
(15:47):
those anymore. So things that I've never learned how to do,
like change my oil or check my entire pressure, I
now have to go find somebody to do that because
I can't just pull up and say fill it up
and can you check everything? Do you remember what time
you were actually released? I want to say it's four
or five in the afternoon, and what did you do?
(16:08):
Where'd you go? So first we went I didn't talk
to any of those reporters that called me a baby killer,
and I gave one interview with Sandra Chapman because she
had interviewed me in the prison and helped push my
case forward, so she was the only exclusive that I gave.
And we went to a park and I got to
walk in the grass barefoot, and we had a nice
(16:29):
time there, and then we went over to Bistro three
ten and I had champagne with my attorneys and they
made me some scallops because seafood was my favorite. They
asked what kind of food I wanted. I said colorful,
and she said what do you mean? And I said
everything in there is kind of brown and gray and
it's just not pretty. I said, I want to eat
(16:52):
vegetables that are colored and nice, and cheese and different
kinds of things. So they set me up with hummus
and peta and I'm not all of it. There was
a spicy that was kind of red and I would
have gotten a strawberry or maybe like I had that
for dessert. I had a whole plate of different fruits
(17:13):
and cream cheese dip and then whipped cream. It was incredible. Yeah,
that sounds incredible. And then you went where And then
I went to my mother's house where my where my
son was staying. And I was up most the night
because I had never gotten to see my baby sleep.
That's an incredible visual. And I see you tearing up.
I mean, I'm trying not to myself. And now you
(17:36):
watch them sleep, you get up the next day. Is
its starting to feel real? At that point it's feeling real,
it's also feeling frightening. I mean, the only thing I
have is my literally my prison uniform and white white
tennis shoes in a bag. I had no clothes, I
have no hygienes. I don't have a toothbrush. And I'm thinking,
(17:58):
I have no money. How am I supposed to get
these things? I have no vehicle, how am I supposed
to get around? And thank goodness, I mean three o'clock
in the afternoon, when my brother got off of work,
he um came and picked me up and we went
out to eat and I literally again had no idea
what to order. Decisions are so real hard because for
(18:23):
so long I haven't made any and I'm trying to
branch out and get better with that, but it's still
it's still an issue that I go through. So we
ate and I had a peach frozen margarita and a steak,
and then he took me shopping, and so we we
went into this clothing store and there's all these colors,
(18:44):
and he's like, what do you want? While I've had
nothing but white and khaki. I have no idea, and
so my eyes bug out and he was like, okay,
he said, you go in the fitting room. I'm gonna
bring you outfits. So he brought me back outfits and
the things that I put on, said this fits good,
and I like this. They went into the keep pile
and everything else went back. And then when we left there,
(19:06):
he took me to an old fashioned candy store and
got me some candy that we had when we were kids.
And then we went to a wine store and I
tasted some wine and he picked up a couple of
bottles of that, and then we went to Walmart, and
at that point, I'm like, wow, you know, I'm over
the moon with everything I'm seeing in Walmarts now super Walmart.
(19:31):
And we go to pick out shampoo and he's like,
what do you want? Well, I've only had two choices
and there's a whole aisle. I have no idea. So
here's my my brother and we're smelling him up and
down the aisle. He said, we'll just pick what smells good.
So we went through and we found something that I liked.
And so by the time we get through there and
(19:51):
I'm like, you know, I need some feminine products. There's
a whole aisle of that. And he's like, what do
you want. Well, I've only had one in sixteen years,
and I don't know. And at this point I'm I'm done.
I'm wiped out. I can't speak, and here I start crying.
And so he looks at me and he was like,
it's okay. He said, my wife uses this, and he
(20:13):
puts it in the car and he said, and if
you don't like it, he said, we'll come back every
day until we find what works for you. And so
he took me to his house and I had wine
and he made me homemade guacamole, and I sat visiting
with him. Yes, it's colorful. And then I ended up
spending the night with him. And then the next day
is when he took me to the movie theater and
(20:34):
I couldn't turn on the water. So he made it good.
And he's the one that between him and my son,
they kept me going out instead of hiding in the
house and not dealing with people. And they helped me
get my license. I had to have a learner's permit again.
They taught me how to build up my credits, how
(20:55):
to use the internet, social media awesome. What is your
social media? Do you want to plug it on the podcast?
Do you want more people to follow you or are
you more of a private kind of person. No, I
mean people can follow me. I'm on Twitter, Christine Bunch
Christine Bunch k R I S T I N E
b U N c H on Twitter. And I do
want to talk about your organization, Justice for just Us. Yes,
(21:19):
you had a wonderful support group, which was your family,
but many people have nothing. People are in for thirty years,
they come out, they've got nobody left. It's a catchy name,
Justice for just Us. What's just us? Just us is?
It's a combination I have Juan Rivera, who's another Agonree.
He spent twenty one years and he is in Illinois.
I'm in Indiana, and we decided we wanted to do
(21:42):
something because people come out and they have no one.
You spend forty years in there, most of your family's
probably died, and there's no one to meet you. There's
no one to take you out shopping and do the
things that my brother did. So we decided that it
was up to us to bring justice to other Agonorees.
So we're getting ready to put in for our non
for profit that will probably go in a couple of weeks,
(22:04):
and our hope is that we can continue to train
and hire other axonres in their states and just make
our community aware of what people need when they walk out,
how they can help. Everybody can help. If you have
a barber shop, give an axonre a haircut, If you
have a clothing shop, give them a new outfit so
they can go get do an interview. So we hope
(22:28):
that we can just keep educating through our speaking events
and bring people in to help. And even if you
give a gift card of twenty dollars, that's a shirt
for someone that's something easy. You don't have to donate
thousands of dollars to make a difference. Just taking someone
on the bus. Many people listening probably saying, well, but
I don't know how to find that person, So I mean,
would you recommend they go to an innocence project website,
(22:50):
maybe a local innocence project website or because the innocence
projects all around the absolutely you can go to any
of the innocence projects and websites and find ways that
you can volunteer and help and help with our axonorees.
Our Facebook page is just is I S four and
it's the number just us. Okay, so it's just is
(23:13):
j U S T I S the number four just
us on Facebook. We also have a website under that
name as well. Okay, good, So get involved. Christine Bunch
has been our wonderful, amazing guest today. You can't see
her smile, but she has a magnetic smile and if
you were here with me, you would absolutely want to
(23:34):
give her a hug, which is exactly what I'm going
to do as soon as we get off the air.
So thank you Christine again for being here and for
sharing your experience, strength and hope, and now let's get
right into it with the one and only Bobie Anthony.
Anthony and Cole were convicted twenty years ago of a
(23:54):
shooting death in South l A. Back Anthony's legal team
says a pinpoint at the finger at the two men.
They were released four years ago after a key witness
for Canada's testimony the pimp later Recanada's story. Their lawyers
then found out an l A. Times reporter had taken
home shell casings from the murder scene that could have
pointed to another suspect. Prosecutors and police refused to admit
(24:16):
that they did anything wrong in this case. There was
not one piece of physical evidence and that's the key.
That's what the police did wrong in this case. They
ignored the evidence of innocence and twisted the evidence to
point towards guilt because they wanted to clear a case.
The two detectives that helped put Obie Anthony and his
codefended behind bars, one still works for the l A.
(24:36):
P D. According to Obie Anthony's lawyers and the judge
that exonerated him, evidence showed they were never here the
night of the killing. I would be welcome to the
show thank you for having me. You were sentenced to
life in prison, life put out the positive parole life,
like the no joke version of life, like some life,
like the kidding and like the one that you know,
we're not even talking about talking to you forever, like
(24:59):
it's no parole. And you were framed. I was actually
framed by the detective Marcella Win. They had information from
the very onset that me and my co defended at
the time. Reggie Cole wasn't involved. It was her. Plus
it was her Win on that end of the bargain
because she has in the law and the eyes of
her co workers are successful incarceration and now it's just
(25:20):
pinning in a conviction. So it was her who actually
framed me. And how did it come to be that
you even became a suspect in this because it's funny
looking at you now, I mean you can't see him
on the radio, but he's a very dapper individual, a
very good looking gentleman. You know, he's got his here
at the at the conference where everybody's on the casual
(25:42):
He's got the tie and the vest and the sharp
looking at shirt and everything. Um, So I mean, how
did you get wrapped up in this nightmare. What was
it like for you? You were you were just a
young man trying to make it in the world. You know,
I don't want to mislead your listeners. I grew up
in the inner city of Los Angeles, California, South central.
I was involved in gangs. But actually got me involved
in this case here that got me wrongfully convicted was
(26:05):
because they allegedly got anonymous call saying that a guy
made a bad move on forty nine Street and hung
up the phone. From that phone call, the young lady
Marcello win the car gave the name of a Baby Day.
She said that she ran the name Baby Day through
the gang database and she had she had hits with
(26:25):
the name Baby Day, but it was multiple hits, and
she determined that the Baby Day that she was looking
for was a guy named Michael Miller out of all
of those Baby Days. And then come to find out
he was incarcerated at that time with me. And so
that's how they got their hands on my picture. Well
and this and it was a very violent time and
they were interested in processing these cases and closing them
(26:48):
correct that time, you had a news reporter by the
name of Miles Corn who was acting as a following
on reporter with the l a p D at that time,
and that's what he was writing in reporting on for
was the gang violence in south central Los Angeles and
the murder rate in which the Homicide Division, in other words,
their cases and and and what they had. And so
(27:09):
he had the privilege at that point to write along
with Marcello Win and Pete Resistance, the detective that was
involved in my homicide case, which turned out to be
a plus because that reporter reported what he's seen as
he's seen it, while those investigative detectives that work for
(27:31):
the police department left out all of the pertinent information
which was pertinent to prove my innocence. So it was
it was, you know, it's amazing, unfortunately, this was well,
it is common, Yes, I mean common. I'm trying to
even find the right word for it. It's like it's pervasive,
this kind of behavior among it's criminal. I'll call it criminal.
(27:53):
It is criminal, criminal as it is, as it is common, unfortunately,
and the fact is that it's hard for people to
understand why and how it goes so wrong when the
people who we pay to protect us, that's protect and serve, right,
go on this rogue mission. And I know, you know
(28:14):
they say power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, And
I think they become desensitized to a certain extent when
they're dealing with one case after another and they start
it starts to become like a just a system, and
it becomes very inconvenient when they start to realize that
they got the wrong guy, but they've already put the
work in. But it's weird that And I know it's
got to be weird from your perspective because you were
(28:35):
in for what seventeen years, right, So how they could
just so callously literally throw somebody's life away because you're
missing out on I mean, seventeen years and arguably those
could be the best seventeen years of your life. Arguably,
I mean you're taking consideration. I walked out of the
prison at the age of thirty seven. I walked into
(28:56):
the institution at the age of nineteen, So you're right,
my young adult life was the time for me to
have kids. One four six. I think for the woman
that cuts it off at nine and said something about
the eggs, I don't know. I don't know if they're
true or not, but at some point or another you
(29:18):
have to realize and appreciate the fact that those same
dilemmas plague demand to his count drops and it drops
even more drastically because he's been affected by institution who's
poising at him. You gotta take that in mind. You
have the some of the most healthier specimens to walk
into institutions and come out rid of with diseases and
play with things. In whether words, they can't get rid
of why because the medical program that they have inside
(29:42):
is designed to do just that, break their body down,
and so they don't get the health care And what's
the great public think that they're getting and that the
public is paying for. Yeah, yeah, to keep that in mind.
In other words, yeah, keep that in mind that the
public is paying for right, So the public is contributing
funds to this institution to take care of medically mentally. Uh,
(30:04):
these individuals who have been a cost rated. But nevertheless
those things are not happening. They're passing out thor zen
and sine quons as those Halloween and it was candy
for trick or treat, And we know that thorzin is
a medication that they used to lobottomize people. Yeah. And
we had Jason Baldwin on the show. He was talking
about the Thorzine shuffle and how he was avoiding that
(30:26):
being placed in that situation at all costs, even at
his own extreme risk to his own personal safety, because
they offered to put him in there for his own protection.
He said, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah. Absolutely. Reason
why is because he recognized that was part of the mechanisms,
in other words, to destroy his body so his spirit
wouldn't have the strength to fight to get out. You
got to fight to get your body right, and then
you fight everything else. Let me come back to this
(30:47):
only because it's always incredible to me the spirit of
the people that are in this building right now, right
and and you're one of two hundred men and women
who have been through these unbelievable ordeals. How did you
find the strength to continue to fight? I mean, you're
just a young guy, a young black guy in a
system that's full of young black guys, right, And I know,
(31:08):
and I know you're focused on that and the disparity
between how the justice system treats white people and minorities, right,
And it's it's an American shame, but the American tradition
and as American pleasure. It's however, it's a shame for
those individuals who has to suffer, but for those individuals
who inflict that suffers a pleasure in the desire, I
(31:30):
hate to think of it that way, but not what
they're doing. And that's what they've been doing, and and
it's knowledge as though to the rest of the people
of somehow another are not even ignorant about those things.
They just try to fight against what they're doing, versus
creating a situation to stop what they're doing, to totally
to have kind of thinking. And it's crazy because we
know that in the rest of the civilized world, Western Europe,
(31:50):
in places like that, they treat incarceration as rehabilitation. We
treated here as punishment. And it's and it's it just
doesn't make any sense, you know. I often say, like
when I'm on a politician or somebody like that I'm
talking to about these issues, I say, if another country
treated our citizens the way we treat our citizens, we'd
invade them. They'd be like, listen to motherfucker's we're coming out.
We got tanks, we got planes. No, no, no, they
(32:11):
are so so taking consideration, they are invading us. They
are doing it so right now. In the local police
department they got tanks. Yeah, yeah, in the local police department,
they do all of those things. So they are they
are raiding us. However, but what did they who they raiding.
They are raiding the inner city, and they're raiding the
inner city for black bodies and bodies of color, and
they put them in prison for long periods of time.
(32:31):
So you know, they think, you know, that's not they're
doing it. It's a war on the poor they're doing Yeah,
there's no question. But let's go back to that because
I think anyone would say if I was in that
situation that you found yourself and not even like fifteen
of life, like life, natural life, you're sentenced to life.
(32:52):
Society said, here's what You're gonna die in prison, Bye bye.
Nobody cares about you. You're gone, right, and you have
no resource at your disposal. It's not like you have
a rich uncle who's like, I'm gonna hire the best,
you know, like I'm gonna go get you know whoever
it is, the top defense attorneys. I'm gonna get a
squad out there. You know you don't have money to
hire and private investigator to uncover this. I'm gonna say
(33:13):
a nice word mouthfeasance, this, this corruption, this this you know,
this frame job that that was perpetrated on you. So
where did you find the strength to say, I'm not
gonna give up. I'm gonna find a way out of
what is it? An impossible situation? I gave up on myself.
You gave up on yourself? What you mean? Gave up myself?
(33:34):
And I'll relied on the creator. So you found faith?
Wasn't found faith. I didn't have to find it. I
just had to give up to you that everyone else
has seen and enjoy to you, there was always been
at me and that gave me the power to see
hope so that I can go towards it. If you
don't know what's going on in here, you ain't tripping
on nothing else. You're too busy concerned about the attachments
(33:56):
is around you. So how did how did you find it?
When did you find it? Like? You didn't go, you
didn't go, No, no, no, absolutely I found it when
the judge called me down, when they called me down
to the county jail, I was I was sitting into
county jail facing life without the possibly of parole. It
was doing that time because they called me down to
the county and they told me that I was being
charged with a murder, three attempted murders with three attempted
(34:19):
robbers with special circles. I'm like, what the where eld
is that? I was like, are you sure you got
the right CDC? And I'm booking number right there. I mean, like,
my last three is six seven six? Is that's six
seven six? He said, yeah, So I found it the
day the judge told me because I was facing the
death penunty in this that I was facing the death penunty.
(34:40):
You know. I'm like, and I know that I didn't
do it, and I'm facing the death penty on this
side of the gate, and on this side of the gate,
I'm looking at life without the possible of parole. So
I didn't find anything that stuff kind of sport. He
just you know, that's that. That's that. I think that's
what the buddhas doing them is in when they go
(35:01):
on that thing and they're sit in their cave for
a little while and they're trying to find some kind
of enlightenment and they get that boom. Sometimes people happen,
they get that boom when they get traumataged because they
get hit ball card there in an accident, they get
that boom they see the light. Well, I did get
hit by bad truck. Didn't hit me physically, but as
you see today, it bragged me on the inside, crush
(35:25):
every inch of my spirit. But I rebuilded it though,
so you didn't. It's amazing to see you because honestly,
and again we're here in person. You're out there listening
to his voice, but just running into in the hallways
here and stuff. I mean, you gotta smile. That lights
up the room. Obie's here with his wife who looks
like a movie star, you know what I mean, and
(35:46):
like it's yeah, I mean so so, somehow or other,
you did prevail. Ultimately, your conviction was overturned, justice was
finally done. Seventeen years later you walked out into society
of free and but you still had to rebuild. How
did you get from that to this where you look like, uh,
I mean you look like thank you, thank you said
(36:09):
I got got I got right there. Because again, it's
about perception. How you see things the way I took
it in. And the way that I took my exoneration in,
it wasn't that justice had finally came and then it
was that it had done. No, it was just justice
had just begun. And so I was born in that instance,
and it gave me a sense of renewing, like man,
(36:30):
I can do this, I can do that, and knocking
like why am Ina be up? Why am I upset
with you about this crazy stuff over here? When I
got the opportunity to use that same energy to be
happy in love and kinda get you figured in places
like that, you don't waste your time, no nonsense. Happy
times now, happy times. Yeah, you came out in two
(36:51):
thousand and eleven, about five and a half years ago. Yes,
and now you're here in San Diego. The future looks
looks good. I mean, obviously there's the scars are not
going to heal in five years and not going to
heal in fifteen years. That you know, But you're like
extremely optimistic and energetic individual. Anybody who bumps into you
and the lobby's gonna pick up on that. And it's
(37:13):
inspiring to everybody that's here to see you up on
stage last night dancing with other gnrees or whatever it
might be. And it does. I hope you know that
it has the real impact not only on your peers,
but also on all of those of us who are
in the movement who come out of this meeting you
and wanting to go do more and devote more time
(37:34):
and more energy and more resources to fight this fight
and and fix the system so that the next Obie
never has to go through what you went through. And
now you're here as an example of what's possible. And
if you could share what you've learned and what you
want people to understand about you, what would it be.
It's a major difference. And believe in annoying transition that stage,
(37:59):
it's the life to living. It is in a no,
you live through the no. You survive through the opposite.
You survived through that, You survived through your belief because
it gets pushed upon constantly. So you survive and you
(38:19):
have to tolerate, and you do those things. But when
you transition to the no, you live in it and
you exercise the right of the fact of the no.
And that's what I want people to take I say
all the time I go around, I get a chance
to talk at you know, colleges and university and not
speaking high schools. And I'll talk to kids and not
first thing, I'll say, what's two plus two? They say
(38:41):
for it? I said, you know that, don't you? I
say yeah. I said, well, who do you believe in?
They say this? I said, why you just told me
too plus to it's for so why are you believing
this and not knowing it? You must know that which
you say is yours. I can't say I believe in
our marriage and the sanctity of our marriage and not
(39:05):
know the person that I'm saying that I have. I
believe that, so I have to know. So it's a transition,
and I that's why I want people to walk away
with it. Transition over to the no exercise the right
to believe, but say to that my worth is better
than that, and my nose solidifies me, and I moved
forward towards my objectives, towards my accomplishments because of my no.
(39:30):
My belief puts me in the want sort of scenario.
It makes me want things because of what I believe.
So take that. So it's it's really the power of knowing.
And that's why the innocents come home be because they
knew they're innocent. They knew that they would come home.
(39:51):
They didn't want to come home. I want to go home.
I want to go home. No, they say I'm going home.
I'm innocent. That's a powerful message and that think that
we can all learn from that, and I'm gonna have
to really process it. It's interesting because I've never heard
it phrased in that way. And you know, I've listened
and I've learned from so many incredible people, so many
(40:12):
spiritual people who've been through ordeals like what you've been through,
people from all walks of life. But I've never heard
anybody put it that way. And I think that, Like
I said, I'm really glad that you shared that. So
I'm glad you're here in San Diego. I'm glad to
be here with you. It's a beautiful day than you
can you get a shout out to Exonerated Nation. Exonerated Nation. Yeah,
is there anything else you want to do? You want
(40:34):
to plug your any social media or any other projects
that you're working on. Like, the only project that I'm
working on right now is Exonerated Nation. And other project
is a personal project, but perfect project. But my public
project is uh Exonerated Nation, and and that's what I'm
doing right now. So I just want to give a
shout out to Exonerated Nation and all those potential or
(40:57):
desired supporters. And how does people if they want to
learn more about Exonerated Nation A couple of different ways.
So I do have a website. It's called Degenerated Nation.
You can look it up online as a website. Also
have a Facebook pages. You can also go on dot com. Yeah,
dot com, you can go in there. I employ people
to follow and those things. But the only reason why
I actually to follow is because I need you to work.
(41:20):
You're following with no actions doesn't help. I need to
follow me so that we could dig this ground and
submit in justice as it's supposed to. You're following its action.
It's not a metaphorical situation to say I'm following him.
So what do you mean you're following them? All right?
(41:40):
What kind of following are you talking? Well? No, I
think kind of following. What you need to do you
need to describe, and when you describe your following, you
want to describe a support. I'm doing this, I'm doing that,
I'm doing this, and I'm doing that you gotta first
learn and get in. And the good news is I
think we're because of what's going on in this country
(42:00):
right now in the world when when what I call
the new age of activism, I think there's more people
than ever that want to get involved. They want to
learn from people like you. They want to help prevent
injustice and fight against this crazy situation that we find
ourselves in, not just in the in the criminal justice system,
but in general and make this world a better place.
And you're doing an incredible job, and I really appreciate
you sharing your experience, strength, and hope with our listening audience,
(42:25):
and I know it's going to have an impact on
many of them. So I hope that makes you feel good,
because it does, and I thank you for the opportunity,
and I really appreciate it. Don't forget to give us
a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.
And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and
(42:46):
I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate
and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show
is by three time OSCAR nomineon composer Jay Ralph. Be
sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
(43:09):
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Flam is a production the Lava for Good Podcasts in
association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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