October 15, 2018 • 49 mins
In this special edition of Wrongful Conviction, Jason Flom is joined by Sadhguru to discuss his revolutionary work that has helped reform prisons throughout India. Sadhguru is a yogi, mystic, visionary and bestselling author who ranked amongst the 50 most influential people in India by India Today. He has been conferred the Padma Vibhushan by the Government of India in 2017, the highest civilian award of the year, accorded for exceptional and distinguished service. Three decades ago, Sadhguru founded the Isha Foundation, a non-profit organization with human well-being at its core commitment, supported by over seven million volunteers in over 250 centers worldwide.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I've never been to trouble of my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, and you know what I mean.
I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything,
this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
(00:22):
know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
with this. How is this possible? I grew up trusting
the systems. I grew up believing that every human thing
should do the right thing. And that's why, even though
I was dealing with corros people, I wasn't going to
brave anyone to get me out of prison because I
wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my way
out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to proven guilty.
(00:46):
I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And that's absolutely
what happened to me. Our system. Since I've been out
ten years, it's coming little ways, but it's still broken,
a totally little trust in humanity after what happened to me.
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. With
(01:21):
Jason Flam Today I have that's me, But today I
have an extraordinary treat for me and for you the audience. UM,
my guest today is soad Garu. And sad Garu is
in internationally renowned yogi and mystic teacher of meditation, a
New York Times bestselling author, and a man who has
(01:43):
done fantastic work in prisons all over the world, teaching
meditation and enlightenment to people, um who most needed. I
think you could say, so soth Guru, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me here. So this is so
(02:03):
exciting because the idea of being able to explore this
aspect of the mind and the you know, the mind
inside the prison and how to transcend these most terrible
circumstances which I've heard you talk about in videos, It's
(02:25):
something that I think can help people both on the
inside and the outside. Family members as well, but everybody.
So I'm really interested in knowing how you how you
got started first of all, on this journey, and even
more so, how you became interested and involved in taking
this practice inside the prison walls. So this is almost
(02:51):
eight years ago, I think twenty eight years ago, there
was a ladies club in climate or city where we
are located now, and they invited me to speak in
that ladies club. This is, you know, a group of
maybe two hundred very elite women of the town. So
(03:13):
I was talking to them and just outside their club
building there's a nice tree. We were sitting under the
tree and I was speaking to them. Then I saw
this big wall which is nearly twenty feet tall wall.
I looked at the wall and said, why it's such
a big wall here, And the fantastic thing is none
(03:34):
of them new. Then I just inquired with the volunteers
that were around me. They said, this is the prison.
It is in the heart of the city and there's
a prison. These ladies that club, the you know, one
part of their club is touching the wall and they
don't know it's a prison. And then I discovered the road,
(03:56):
the main road in the city is called Jail Road.
Jail Yes. Then I said, I would like to meet
those people who are on the other side of the wall.
I would like to do something with them. I would
like to see who are they. Then we discovered the
superintendent of the prison, where somebody was known to me.
Then I tried to put an application saying that I
(04:17):
would like to come and do something. So you're breaking
into the prison. Yes, breaking into the prison is not easy.
It took me over two years to get inside. I
did not have the qualifications. And what was your application
when you were saying that I want to go inside?
Because because I said I would like to do something
with this prisoners and see who they are? Then I
(04:38):
discovered there were over users inside. I said, fourteen hundred people.
What are there for? It doesn't matter. My work is
with human beings. It doesn't matter where they are, So
let's go. So when I went inside or and I
tried to get inside, they put me through some three interviews,
(04:59):
but that I am fit enough to go to the
prison or not. And they've said that the said group.
Don't waste your time here these guys. You just can't
do anything with them. Every Sunday some Christian priest comes.
All they do is mischief, and Friday some Islamic guys
are coming. No good and another festival days and other things.
(05:21):
The Hindu people are coming. It's no good nothing. You
can't teach them anything, you can't do anything with them.
All they understand is there's beating punishment. This all you
don't waste your time here. Well, let me ask you
this prison was this considered a maximum security prison where
it is, and so the people there are mostly in
for murder or nearly nearly probably six hundred seven hundred
(05:48):
them of them out for murder, but largely long term prisoners.
Long term means in India, anything over eight years is
considered long term prison. So I said, give me a chance,
let me just talk to them. It took me a
little over two years to convince them that they should
(06:09):
let me in. So when we went in, there were
twelve wards. You know, in each ward there is something
like So we picked a ward which had over two prisoners,
the largest ward, and this is uh, everybody has come
there for life imprisonment. This means they have done either
(06:32):
murder or more. So I said, let me do this.
So they put full security armed police. Said take them out.
They're not going to harm me anything. Just take them out.
It's not a problem. They said, no, we cannot do that. Anyway,
There were some policemen. Then I asked him together outside
they all came looking at me, Okay, what is this
(06:53):
guy going to do with us? So we just arranged
a small game and started playing the aim with them. Okay,
so it's you, yes, two d H fifteen criminals harder
and softened. I don't know all of them are there
for murder or more. So we started playing a game
(07:16):
and they got so involved like little children. They screamed
and yelled, and they played the game full on for
about an hour. Then I stopped and then for about
half an hour because they gave me only two hours.
Next aboum two hours, you have to leave the prison.
So then I spoke to them for half an hour
and told them, see, this is what I wish to do.
All of you guys should write to the authority, to
(07:40):
the superintendent that you want this program for you. You
won't believe when I had to leave at the end
of two hours, at least sixty percent of them we're
all in tears. They're saying, you don't go, you stay
with us. So seeing this, then they allowed me to
conduct a program am The first program I did, it
(08:03):
was a ten day thing, two hours every day, ten days.
So I sought permission to stay inside the prison. I said,
let me stay there ten days with them, so that
they feel I'm They're really wanting to do something with them,
not just for cosmetic purposes. I couldn't get that permission
because there were some militants in India they called terrorists,
(08:26):
So some of the terrorists were imprisoned in that prison.
They said, no, we can't let you stay there. But
every day I went there. My thing was only for
two hours, but I went there, served mail to them,
participated with them in their break times. I was there.
We participated in all activity in the prison. In that
ward where these prisoners were there, weld. I want to
(08:48):
back up a second. So you would go in and
even the first time you said you play a game,
What kind of a game. We just played simple games.
We have certain homes like dodgeball and that kind of stuff. People. Yeah,
fun we had. So every day in the two hour
program ten days we had about half an hour or
forty five minutes was just games. Then we taught them
(09:11):
some simple process of yoga and spoke to them on
a variety of things. The kind of transformation it brought
about there. This prison on that day had a six
years of history. It was during the British era that
it was set up as a maximum security prison. In
this one thirty six years. Every day, literally every day,
(09:33):
someone was always in the solitary. The solitary in that
prison is like a four by four box four ft
by four ft steel box. There you can only sit,
you can't stand up. Jesus so in that they put
you for a week ten days like this. But after
we did the program, after we did three programs, I
(09:54):
think nobody went into the solitary for more than two year.
Is not a single person entered the solitary. That's a
kind of difference it made. And they burst forth into poetry.
Most of them are school dropouts or many of them illiterate,
but they all burst out into poetry, writing poems. We
(10:14):
have over three to four thousand poems which is being
released in India as a part of this. This program
be called as in a Freedom for the imprisoned. In
Freedom for the imprison I munna tell you this. There
was one guy, his name was Sham I think he's
been executed now. He was there for three murders which
(10:37):
he committed in the courtroom. He killed three people in
the courtroom. Wow. So that is a kind of crime.
You can't get away in the courtroom. When you do it,
it's considered the worst thing. Well, and it's pretty hard
to Yeah, I mean it's of the judge, your judges,
(10:57):
the eye witness. So yeah, pretty much done there. So
he wrote a poem which you know, brought the entire
prison into tears and just about anybody who reads the poem.
He just said he he's been in the on the
death row for about seven years. By then, every time
(11:20):
in the evening, see, daytime is quite okay in the prison.
From morning six to evening six, it's fine. Sunset, everybody
goes into the cells and the cell door closes. Normally
in India it's eight by five cell three people will
be there. That is when all all kinds of horrors begin.
One thing the prison psychologists told us is every day
(11:42):
in the night, in their sleep, people are howling like animals.
One simple thing that happened with the simple meditation process
we brought is people first sharing is they're sleeping peacefully.
All these sounds and yellings stopped. And this guy a poem.
Every day when the cell door closes, I thought this
(12:03):
was my grave, but now this has become my bodhi tree.
If the cell door closes, you know the bodhi tree
where Buddha God enlightened. When the cell door closes, I
closed my eyes and I am in a different world altogether.
This has become my Bodhi tree. He wrote this poem
in Tamil in the local language. So like this there
we've seen many, many fantastic transformational stories. See, the law
(12:30):
has its ways. I mean, it's not for me to
suddenly ask for a change in law or something, because
you have to maintain law and order in a country.
There are many issues, but no matter where a human
being is. Actually everywhere they call it a correction center,
but there is no room for correction. In fact, people
(12:51):
who go to prison for short stints and come they
become really hardcore criminals when they come out, at least
that's true in India. So when they go in they
may be just partic criminals, when they come out they
become serious level of crime. Right, that's a generalization here.
I shouldn't say that, but it does happen because it's logical.
And also when we people here come out, they come
(13:12):
out with a stigma having been in cars rated. It's
harder to get a job and it's harder, you know.
They if they had also come out with skills. Yeah,
they may learn criminal skills. But I want to say
to just not to direct your flow here, but today
is it is it particularly uh interesting day for you
to be here because as we were discussing before, today
is the day when Washington State abolished the death penalty,
(13:34):
becoming the twentieth state in America to to do so.
And hopefully we'll get all fifty because it's preposterous that
we said it's it's disgusting that we as a country
still execute people. It's also the eve of and you
brought this up. You know, we call it correctional as
you said, but it's just punitive. All all we do
is punish people. I mean, there are some little programs
(13:57):
here and there, but they've been cut back and cut
back and cut back, um, which of course is crazy too,
because the more we invest inside the prisons and helping
people to better themselves and to advance themselves spiritually as
you do, or educationally or whatever it is, um, the
better chance they have of not reoffending and becoming productive
citizens and paying taxes and and not causing problems on
(14:20):
the outside. And to that end, today tomorrow group is
going m about thirty correction officials. My friend Dan Sleptian
is going with them UH to tour prisons in Scandinavia
and parts of Europe to see how they do it there,
because there they focus on rehabilitation and they do it right.
So by and large, so hopefully that those some of
(14:41):
those practices will be brought back here. But I think
it's it's exciting that there is some progress and some momentum,
more than any time since I've started working on this
twenty five years ago. For for this type of change.
Of all the things, the most important thing is that
one who is imprisoned learns to handless condition in a
(15:04):
healthy manner within himself or herself. Please explain my work
is Essentially, it doesn't matter where you are, whether you
are in New York City or in India or in Africa.
You're a prisoner, you're a politician, you're a musician, it
doesn't matter who you are. Essentially, every human being has
(15:28):
the right to be joyful and peaceful outside conditions in
our lives. What the world throws at us is not
always determined by us, but what we make out of
it within ourselves is entirely ours dent. So to empower
people like this whether they are inside the prison outside
(15:50):
the prison, because those who are outside the prison doesn't
mean they're living joyfully. Many of them suffer more than
the prisoners. When I went into the prison in the
(16:11):
climate or where I personally worked. After that, we trained
teachers and now in the last twenty three years it's
become a mandatory program in southern Indian prisons. What I
saw was see when you go into the prison, it's
a pretty organized place. Your food comes on the dot,
(16:33):
your your door open, somebody opens doors for you, should
sit for you. I'm saying, it's a very organized place.
A lot of people aspire for that in their lives
and it never happens. The only problem is I've never
been into these prisons, either in India or in the
United States and come out without tears in my eyes,
(16:54):
simply because there is pain in the air. This is
how important freedom is for a human being. There's nothing else.
Food is on time. In fact, people who are living
in prison are far fitter than those people who are
living outside. They're very physically fit, they're well fed everything.
The only thing is there's no freedom, and how much
(17:16):
it hurts a human being is unbelievable. There's simply pain
in the air. If you just breathe that air, you've
you know, tears well up in your eyes. Not because
I think of something emotional about them, simply the very
atmosphere is full of pain. This is how significant freedom
means for a human being. If you just take away
that one thing, how much pain and how much damage
(17:40):
it does to a human being in a very profound
way is unbelievable. Well, and I do want to say
in America, of course, we have you know, conditions in
the prisons, in many prisons that are really terrible. And
that does extend to the food. Yes, you get three
meals a day, but the food is can be rotten,
(18:01):
it can be it's certainly not nutritious. Um. And you know,
it is something that I think there's there's disease prone, uh,
you know, because of the quality and the and the
substance that they're being fed. So I don't want to
sugarcoat that, but you are absolutely correct it is. I'm
not saying they're getting the best food. I'm saying regular food.
(18:23):
Regular they're never hungry. Food is given to them and
they're healthy because they fit. They kept themselves fit inside
the prison I'm not trying to illogize a prison. I'm
I'm trying to point out just because freedom is taken away,
how much it hurts a human. I think that's that's
a very good point, and it's interesting too. I'm reading
a book now. I'm almost finished with this book by
(18:45):
Anthony ray Hinton called The Sun Does Shine UM, and
it's his story of spending thirty years on death row
in Alabama for a crime he didn't commit, and how
he was able to escape from his uh, you know,
taking is his own mind and using it to escape
from this five by eight UH cell that he was
(19:06):
trapped in. UM. It's quite extraordinary, and I think that he,
like a lot of people, found some variation of the
principles that you teach UM on his own because it
was the only way that he could survive this unbelievable ordeal.
Seeing so many of the people around him executed, UH,
(19:28):
smelling that smell of death and all the other deprivations
of death row. It's it's quite remarkable. And to me,
I get so much UM inspiration and and UM gratitude
from being around UH these extraordinary individuals who have persevered
(19:53):
through these impossible conditions. And found, like I said, through
you know, necessity or despiration or inspiration or some combination
thereof again some variation of the very things that you
are able to bring inside. And I want to turn
to that too, because you've done work in prisons in
(20:14):
America as well. And how did that happen? Um, When
I came to Nashville, because we kind of centered around Nashville,
I visited this old prison from the kind of colonial times,
and they took me into this place where where the
(20:38):
executions happened. Just the just the energy that the stones
around the stone walls have absorbed and still exceued is
so terrible. So right there, I decided we need to
go to the prisons and do something. But we didn't
get permission in Tennessee, so we went to Kentucky and
(21:00):
then we came to Pennsylvania. These are two which allowed.
But then I found that there was a lot of
resistance from religious groups and others for any yoga or
anything to come in there openly or goued with me,
we will put them in prisons because we want them
to suffer. We don't want you to have them blissed out.
(21:22):
There was a lot of resistance and struggle. So we
have not done much in the last few years in America,
but in India it continues. Yes, it's it's I'm glad
you brought that up too, because I am trying to remember.
A friend of mine who I met acquaintance several years ago,
had been teaching UH yoga and meditation in prisons in
(21:43):
America and was so successful, um in terms of the
results being like what you described in India, where the violence,
the rates of violence inside the prisons plummeted, right, the
infractions of the prisoners, every aspect of it just was
so much better. Inmate on inmate violence, inmate inmate to guard,
vice versa. Everything just was so much better. Of course,
(22:06):
so they canceled the program, right, and it's really remarkable,
you know. We there's a case that I'm involved with now,
and this is how crazy our system is in America
in South Dakota where and you brought this to mind.
A guy his last name is rhymes uh. He was
sentenced to death by a jury who said that they
(22:29):
senced him to death instead of life because he's gay
and they felt that sensing him to life in prison
would entitle him to a life of enjoyment because he
would enjoy being in there and amongst the presence of
other men because he's gay. Um. Now, this is such
an outrageous and terrible thing for anyone to say, and
(22:50):
the idea that it's allowed to stand in this country.
It's almost like the jury was committing a hate crime. Um.
So many of us are working now, including people at
the this this project on trying to get clemency from
the governor, because it's it's it's it's an extreme version
(23:10):
of what you were talking about. The idea that we
sit there and say, well, we don't want there to
be any joy of any kind or any and you
contrast it with places like Norway, right where in Norway
the guards are trained for two years. My understanding is
that only ten of the ones who apply actually are accepted.
(23:31):
They're trained in psychology, they're trained in conflict resolution, they're
trained in all types of different protocols. And when people
are brought to the prison, the warden gives a speech
where he says something along the lines just first of all,
the guards sing a song and then and some people
listen are gonna say, well, this is outrage this is
(23:52):
too much. We can't do that. It's too nice or
whatever whatever, but this is the way they do it
over there, and the warden says it, makes a speech
and says something like, well, I recognize that your people,
your human beings, like me, and when you come out
you might be my neighbor. Therefore, I want to treat
you as my equal and treat you, as you know,
with dignity, so that when you are done with your
(24:13):
sentinels in the intention of correction is very alive. That's
what it means. Yes, over there, it's a very very
den in Germany. It's true to where they have that
the cells have locks, but they locked from the inside.
You know, how how different is that? Right? What a
simple change. They locked from the inside, so you could
have that's a home. When you lock from inside, it's
(24:34):
a home. I mean, you don't want to be there, right,
I don't want to be there. You don't want to
be there, No, no right minded person wants to be there.
But at least again, it provides a certain level of
dignity that allows for It's quite opposite. For that way
the poem that he wrote about every time the cell
door closed it felt like my grave, in that he
(24:55):
describes the clang of the boat when the damned door
and plan crack. They look it. He he always started
his death knell, you know, when he heard the soun
that life is over every day. It's it's just the
way somebody locks the door from outside, if you could
(25:17):
lock it from inside. It's a world of difference. It's
a world of difference. And again, the recidivism rates in
these countries are so much lower than ours because partially
because of the fact that these people are treated as
human beings when they go there and you know here,
and of course I do want to touch on this too,
and I'm interested in your take on this because in America,
(25:40):
we treat people with mental illness as pariah's um and
we lock them up instead of treating them for the
syndromes that they suffer from. Now, I'm not saying that
if someone is mentally ill and they go and kill
you know, people, that they shouldn't be punished in some way.
Um but uh. And I, like you, believe in a
(26:00):
system of law and order. I do think we need
a justice system. We need to be free society, but
we also everyone is entitled to be safe. Um So,
But it is incredible that we lock people with mental
illness up in these prisons at the numbers that we do,
the the estimates of the number of people who suffer
(26:22):
from a diagnosable medical uh you know, uh, recognizable mental
illness that are incarcerated in this country. I think it's
something like thirty of the inmates in this country have
this and so. And those people are damned to an
even more dire faith because of the fact that they
can't obey the rules, right, So they're constantly being punished
(26:44):
on top of their punishment because they're not mentally able
to sometimes understand or go along with due to whatever
it might be, schizophrenia or whatever they have. And so
they end up in the whole or they end up
in these you know, the shore or even worse can auditions,
and of course all that does is exacerbate their mental illness.
So what is your I mean, do you have any
(27:06):
insight into this? Say? Um? The thing is in the
different system of when people want to lawyers want to
defend their clients of very terrible crimes that have been committed,
the first step that they take is mental disorder because
it's the easiest way to get away. So I think
(27:27):
even those who make judgments, either a judge or jury
system in America, it's very hard for them to really
design for sure which is real mental illnolence, which is not.
Because every one of us, if we are willing, if
you push ourselves a little bit, we can cross the
line of sanity and behave in a certain way. A
(27:49):
lot of people do under our influence of alcohol or
a drug. They are crazy today, but tomorrow morning they
may be fine. Having said that, when somebody's diagno with
an illness, treating him as a normal person and punishing
him for those things is inhuman. But at the same time,
(28:10):
the system might not have evolved to a place to
handle such people. Well, there may be no systemic in
a country like America, you should be able to do it.
In India, I am saying we don't have a systemic
arrangement to be able to handle such people. But in
being in all these prisons, being in a community, no
(28:32):
communication with various prison authorities, I've not heard of mental
illness patients being there because usually they will be sent
to a mental institution rather than keeping them in prison,
because prison is simply not equipped to handle those things.
But we do not know how many people are there
(28:53):
who have nailment but who are not being properly diagnosed
as such and being treated as normal with punishments and stuff.
It must be happening, I'm sure. Yeah. In New York City,
we don't have facilities for people in those conditions. We
don't have the type of treatment centers that you would
associate with what many people think is the greatest and
(29:13):
one of the greatest cities in the world. I do.
I grew up here. I love my city. But it's
crazy that we have, uh, we have no ability to
to house these people in a secure but safe environment
where they can be treated and and hopefully get the
help that they need in order to overcome or or
or or get you know, some progress on these conditions
(29:34):
that are afflicting them. And so we put them into
the criminal justice system where they are you know, they're
going to be abused in ways that even that are
even worse than people who are mentally fit for these situations.
For these individual sufferings and dividual also systemic situation. One
(29:56):
significant aspect these we made a huge difference. The reason
why it's mandatory now in southern areas because the difference
it made to the people and how their behavior has changed.
And many of them who are known to be little
crazy and doing wild things inside the prison, all of
them leveled out. Just taking yoga into the prisons can
(30:18):
be a big thing. But when I say yoga, not
the kind of yoga you're doing in the studios in
New York City. There is another dimension of yoga. If
we take this dimension of yoga into prisons, if the
right kind of people take it in with at most care,
(30:38):
concern and compassion for the people inside, it can make
a phenomenal difference. It has made a big, big difference
in India. We're doing largely in southern India. There are
other people who are doing in northern part of the India.
And without doubt, every prison has reported significant changes in
the behavioral patterns and the amount of violence was there
(31:00):
in the prison because everything is settled. You know, hands
are the first things which move in these people. And
how does this how long does this particular? How many
minutes a day do people need to devote to the practice.
They just have to devote twenty one minutes a day,
twenty one minutes and uh seven days a week. And
(31:20):
the changes six days a week, just every day, every
day that you can't carry seven there's too much of
a burden to Kenny, I agree. When I heard myself
say that, I said, well, it sounds like a lot
that you said every day. I was like, well that
I could do. It's like it's like one day at
a time, right, So, um, never days come in bunches
at you. It only comes one at a time. Yeah,
(31:42):
that's isn't it such a wonderful grace that the creation
never throws bunches of days at you. Suppose it came
like a bunch of grapes, twenty five days came at
you at a time. What would you do, Especially if
it was like Wednesday, Thursday, and Monday at the same time,
or Sunday and Tuesday and Friday. It would be like
so confusing, you know what I mean, Nobody would know
(32:04):
what to do that. We have a metaphysical problem as well.
So how can we full time in America? Now? Not
most of the time. No, I have teams of people here, volunteers.
So we need to figure out a way to work
together to bring this UM teaching inside more prisons here
(32:24):
and see if we can. You know, I think this
would work much better on East coast and west coast,
But most of the work that we tried to do
we did it in the Midwest, and the levels of
resistance see the I think when we attempted this also
about eight ten years ago. From then to now, I
think the opinion of what yoga is has changed dramatically.
(32:47):
In America, people thought this is some religious practice from India.
Now they understand it is the science of well being.
So I think that understanding has sipped into the society
quite well now. So it should be much easier to
do it now than when we attempted to do it here.
So yeah, I mean, I would love to see if
(33:07):
we can work on it in New York State. You
know there are But the good news is there are.
As much as there's a lot of people in positions
of power who are maybe closed minded, there are also
a lot of people who are open minded and who
want to improve the conditions. And it's better for everyone
(33:28):
when we're able to do that. It's better for I
think everyone in that ecosystem of the prison, not just
the inmates, right, even the closed minded people when they're
very happy, they opened the minds a little bit so
that is my thing. People. They were amazed, How is
it these criminals, they're all behaving so well with you,
(33:49):
they're so happy with you. I said, this is all
it is. If you keep a human being happy, he's
a wonderful guy always. If you're unhappy, he could be heading.
That's different. That's true with everybody, isn't it. So twenty
(34:14):
one minutes a day not bad. Um, it's a way
of to put it, very simply, to put it technically,
It's like this. So all human experience has a chemical
basis to it. What you call a stress, what do
you call its anxiety? What you call its tranquility, misery, joy, agony, ecstasy,
Everything has a chemical basis to it within the system.
(34:36):
Now don't think about other chemicals in New York City.
I'm talking about the chemistry in the body. So every
human experience has a chemical basis to it. Now, if
you create a chemistry of blissfulness, you are blissful by
your own nature. This is like a chemical soup. You
(34:56):
are a chemical soup, actually a very complex chemical soup.
The question it only are you a great super a
lousy soup? So this is just about teaching people how
to make a great super out of yourself that it
tastes really wonderful from within. And when you're feeling wonderful,
you're naturally wonderful to everything around you. And how can people?
(35:19):
So people are listening now, right, I'm sure they're wondering,
how can I get involved with this? How can I myself?
I'm not in prison, I'm out bad about doing whatever
I'm doing. A lot of people listening in their cars,
those who are imprisoned not by the government but by
their own nature. But but this practice, this magical twenty
(35:39):
this is like a tease to people. Right, They're listening
to the other, going where is this twenty one minute?
How do I find these twenty What do I do?
It's called aner engineering. They must look it up under
engineering inner engineering. And there's YouTube videos and things so
I can learn because I want to learn myself. Now.
You know, there's even a propriatory online program. Uh huh.
And you can just pull it up and just start
doing it right now. Yes, they can. I can envision
(36:02):
people now driving to work and pulling over on the
side of the roads. Of people across the world have
done it. We had an organization which is completely run
by volunteers. We have about four thousand, uh full time
volunteers and over nine million part time volunteers. It's all
done by them. Well, I mean, you might have nine
million and one by the time we finished with this podcast,
(36:23):
because right so it's www Dot Inner Engineering dot com.
Www Dot inner Engineering dot com. And I want to
also say, I mean, I've I've had the privilege of
getting to know so many people who are either still
on inside prison like Yan Serring, who is those those
(36:45):
people that you have helped to come out, those who
are wrongly incarcerated, and now you help them to come out.
We would be privileged to conduct a special program for
them if they're in one place somewhere. Okay, fantastic, We're
gonna you know what we're gonna do. We will will
organize that for the next Innocence Network conference, where we're
going to have approximately two hundred people who are wrongfully
convicted all gathering together. We will do the program we
(37:08):
love for the program at our cost. We will whatever
is needed for those people that would be wonderful and
much appreciate, and we're gonna make that happen. Um. But
I was gonna say too that I've had the privilege
of getting to know some extraordinary people like Sonny Jacobs,
who I was talking to you about before, who was
sentenced to death, who taught herself these practices from things
she remembered seeing on TV. And this was in the
(37:28):
seventies when she was convicted, late seventies, early eighties, um,
and who got her you know, who managed to maintain
her sanity in her years in isolation on death row
by by using some similar, you know, techniques, practices. And
then there's a guy who I always think about, Nimen Sering,
who's still in after thirty one years in Virginia, who
(37:48):
is a meditation practitioner and a Thai Chi master, and
I know he's teaching others in the in the prison
that he's in in Virginia some of these practices and
writing books about it and other things like that. So
you know, it's it's it's out there and it's already percolating,
and you know it's helping people, but it needs to
(38:12):
be done on a much more organized and organized Scalely
scale is important if you want to see the difference.
That's the word I was looking for, a scale. So
I would love to see if we can start. I mean,
for instance, I think New York State is a good
place to start. UM. We have um some very good
people and positions of great authority inside the correction system
(38:33):
who I think would be very open minded to this UM.
And I have a prison in mind right now. Or
my friend J. J. Velasquez, John Age of last Quas
has been on the show, is still locked up in
sing Sing and I think we're gonna let's explore and
see if we can bring this practice inside there. They
do a lot of wonderful things their voices from within
and other programs that are that are progressive, I would say,
(38:55):
but this would be I mean, there's so many good
things that can come out of you being here. And
I was starting this this process now. Now it's interesting
because you're such a such an interesting and inspirational man,
and yet you are a victim of the same affliction
as I am, which is called golf. So why why
(39:17):
do you suffer? I don't suffer that as an infliction.
It's just that I used to play a variety of games.
I played a lot of field hockey when I was young.
I played soccer, being in India, played cricket. I was
When I was in school, I was in some twelve
disciplines of games. That's all. I did, just bot most
(39:39):
of the time. But about seven eight years ago, I
was playing soccer with the kids and I tore my
a c L and my left knee cartilage. So after
that injury, I was just sitting. I had an event
and I was sitting at a dinner table and somebody
brought one brand new tailor made golf it and they said,
(40:01):
it's time you play golf. You're too old for the
other games. You're time. It's time you understand this. The
next day I all packed up my knee. I went
to the golf course, straight onto the course. I've never
been to a driving range till now. I just went straight,
straight on the course and I hit the ball. It
went straight there was It's amazing. I said, what's a
big problem. It's a bloody sitting ball, not moving. He's
(40:23):
not moving. It's a sitting ball. Any other game I played,
the ball was coming at me at different angles, different velocities,
different spins. Here it's sitting. What's a big deal about
hitting it? So I never took a lesson. I've never
been on a range now I'm playing for a handicap
of not bad. Pretty amazing. Um, you'd like gonna be
(40:46):
the successor to Tiger Woods or something like that. We're
gonna get you on the tour. It's gonna be amazing,
self taught and everything else. Um So, and I think
we may we may have to go out and hit
some balls together tomorrow. Um. I think the weather is
going to cooperate. So that's the plan and I'm excited
about that. Will with the ball will sit there and
wait for us, and we will go out there and
(41:07):
address it problems anybody. It sits and yeah, and it
doesn't know who we are either until we hit it.
And it is amazing because when people ask me about
golf and they say, um, we're getting way off topic here.
But people who don't play golf, they ask me, why
why do you do? This is a waste of time
four hours just at the other what. First of all,
you're out there in nature. It's beautiful. It's grass and
water and trees and birds and air and whatever. It's
(41:28):
very nice, you know, nice day whatever. You're with friends
and social. But moreover, on those rare occasions when you
actually hit a golf ball, properly, and you can. The
physics are the same in golf as other sports with balls.
Right when you hit one side of the ball, it
compresses and then that energy has to go somewhere, so
it explodes out the other side of the ball and
then the ball flies. And on that rare occasion when
(41:50):
I have had the privilege of hitting it properly, you
can actually feel that compression and it goes through the
ball to the club, into your hands and throw your body,
into your soul and connects you to the center of
the universe in a way. That is that's my that's
my definition. I don't know it does. Like I said,
it happens maybe once every few rounds, but that shot
(42:11):
is what I live for when I'm out there. You know,
it's just such a great amazing thing. And then unlike
other sports, you don't have to run, Nobody tackles you, nobody,
nobody's saying to take your ball. You just go and
walk and look and catch catch up with the ball
and think a little bit, what kind of shot. And
it's a very nice little breeze. That's nice, nice, nice.
So hopefully tomorrow will have that experience. I can't guarantee it,
(42:32):
but we'll see what It freaks people, mainly because they
got nobody to blame, but the ball that went into
the lake they annoy. It's them. That's what you see
people freaking because they know if it's any other game,
you can say the other guy did it. Here there
is nobody else when the ball lands in the lake,
(42:52):
you know it's just you. That's what makes them make
people go totally crazy. So there's a strong element of
personal responsibilities, which is pretty hint thing out there which
I can see that so UM grew before we close, UM,
I wanted to do the same thing I do when
I'm every more or less every episode, which is to
(43:13):
ask my guests if if I can just turn the
microphone my microphone off, UM and and thank you again
for being here and sharing your your thoughts and your
experience and your wisdom with with me and with the audience,
and then just turn it over to you for any
(43:34):
other ideas that you would like to share. So this
is something everyone should understand that everybody is some kind
of a prisoner of their own making, some unfortunately by
the state, but rest by themselves. When I said prisoner,
(43:56):
people have limited themselves in some way, they've drawn their
own by boundaries, the boundaries maybe of gender, race, or religion,
or ethnicity or nationality. We've drawn boundaries that we cannot
cross in our own minds, which is the basis of
so much of suffering that's happening within human beings. So
(44:17):
we need to understand this as there is a science
and technology for external well being. When I say science
and technology for external well being, if you just look
back and see what is the level of comfort and
convenience that people enjoyed a hundred years ago and what
is the level of comfort and convenience who are enjoying today,
(44:38):
it's just unbelievable. No generation ever knew these kind of
comforts and conveniences, so we should be the most joyful generation.
But such a thing has not happened simply because we've
fixed the outside too much, done nothing about our interiority.
So as there is a science and technology for external
(44:59):
well being, there is a whole science and technology for
inner well being. You don't have to believe anything, you
don't have to belong to any group, if you just
learn a few things about how to manage your body,
how to manage your thought, process, your emotion, and your energies.
If these four dimensions your body, mind, emotion, and energy
(45:20):
take instructions from you, you will live healthy, you will
live blessed out, and you will live a powerfully intense life.
This is possible for every human being when it comes
to the outside action. Not to human beings are equal.
What we can do with our body, what we can
do with our mind, not to human beings are equal.
(45:41):
But when it comes to the inner dimension, all of
us are equally capable. Such a thing has not happened
to most people simply because they never paid attention to
what is within. They thought by fixing the outside, everything
will be okay. You see the hammer banging, because they
think by fixing the outside, everything is gonna be okay.
We have more comfort and convenience in any generation ever
(46:02):
had in the history of humanity. We are the most
comfortable generation ever. But we are almost complaining like neurotic
complaint level, simply because we have not done anything about
the inner nature of who we are. So what we
are referring to us in engineering is this possibility. This
(46:22):
is not only for people who are in some state
of suffering or imprisoned or whatever. First and foremost thing
is people in positions of responsibility and power must get
this because if they don't break their limitations within themselves,
if though they don't erase the boundaries of their individuality you,
(46:43):
they cannot change the situation. They cannot bring about a
new possibility. You have heard the word yoga. Of course,
the word yoga means union. The yoga, the word yoga
does not mean twisting and turning. Yoga means union. Union
means there is you and the universe. Right now. If
you look at individual human beings, their life is like
(47:07):
it is you versus the universe. You versus universe is
a stupid competition to get into the Yoga means consciously
you raise the boundaries of your individuality. Where there is
no you and the universe, You are a part of
the universe in your living experience, not as an idea,
not as an intellectual process, not as an emotional process,
(47:30):
but as a living experience. Like you experience the ten
fingers of your hand, you experience all life around you.
If if a human being is touched by this experience,
even for a moment, the very way you perceive, experience,
and express your life alters dramatically, and that is what
needs to happen. We are just doing uh cosmetic changes
(47:51):
to human beings by teaching them morality, ethics, small changes
in attitudes. This is not good enough. Only when you
experience the other as myself, everything about you changes. This
is what yoga means, this is what in engineering means.
In a way. On that note, um, I want to
thank you again for media in whatever way we can
(48:13):
be useful for these people who have been unjustly punished
by a society. We will do our best. Please call
upon us whenever we needed. Thank you, I will be
doing so. And thank you for that very kind and
generous offer. And also get ready to be beaten in
the golf game tomorrow. Oh boy, I thought we are
one and one is the two and the other one
(48:34):
is together and we're gonna I'm gonna be on with
the universe. So okay, Well, it's good to know that
that doesn't that doesn't extend all the way to the
golf course. It stops at the entrance to the club.
So anyway, well, this has been a real treat for me.
(48:58):
Don't forget to give us a fair tastic review. Wherever
you get your podcasts. It really helps, and I'm a
proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope
you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and
helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project
dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.
I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
(49:20):
Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three
time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a
production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal
Company Number one
I've never been to trouble of my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, and you know what I mean.
I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything,
this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
(00:22):
know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
with this. How is this possible? I grew up trusting
the systems. I grew up believing that every human thing
should do the right thing. And that's why, even though
I was dealing with corros people, I wasn't going to
brave anyone to get me out of prison because I
wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my way
out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to proven guilty.
(00:46):
I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And that's absolutely
what happened to me. Our system. Since I've been out
ten years, it's coming little ways, but it's still broken,
a totally little trust in humanity after what happened to me.
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. With
(01:21):
Jason Flam Today I have that's me, But today I
have an extraordinary treat for me and for you the audience. UM,
my guest today is soad Garu. And sad Garu is
in internationally renowned yogi and mystic teacher of meditation, a
New York Times bestselling author, and a man who has
(01:43):
done fantastic work in prisons all over the world, teaching
meditation and enlightenment to people, um who most needed. I
think you could say, so soth Guru, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me here. So this is so
(02:03):
exciting because the idea of being able to explore this
aspect of the mind and the you know, the mind
inside the prison and how to transcend these most terrible
circumstances which I've heard you talk about in videos, It's
(02:25):
something that I think can help people both on the
inside and the outside. Family members as well, but everybody.
So I'm really interested in knowing how you how you
got started first of all, on this journey, and even
more so, how you became interested and involved in taking
this practice inside the prison walls. So this is almost
(02:51):
eight years ago, I think twenty eight years ago, there
was a ladies club in climate or city where we
are located now, and they invited me to speak in
that ladies club. This is, you know, a group of
maybe two hundred very elite women of the town. So
(03:13):
I was talking to them and just outside their club
building there's a nice tree. We were sitting under the
tree and I was speaking to them. Then I saw
this big wall which is nearly twenty feet tall wall.
I looked at the wall and said, why it's such
a big wall here, And the fantastic thing is none
(03:34):
of them new. Then I just inquired with the volunteers
that were around me. They said, this is the prison.
It is in the heart of the city and there's
a prison. These ladies that club, the you know, one
part of their club is touching the wall and they
don't know it's a prison. And then I discovered the road,
(03:56):
the main road in the city is called Jail Road.
Jail Yes. Then I said, I would like to meet
those people who are on the other side of the wall.
I would like to do something with them. I would
like to see who are they. Then we discovered the
superintendent of the prison, where somebody was known to me.
Then I tried to put an application saying that I
(04:17):
would like to come and do something. So you're breaking
into the prison. Yes, breaking into the prison is not easy.
It took me over two years to get inside. I
did not have the qualifications. And what was your application
when you were saying that I want to go inside?
Because because I said I would like to do something
with this prisoners and see who they are? Then I
(04:38):
discovered there were over users inside. I said, fourteen hundred people.
What are there for? It doesn't matter. My work is
with human beings. It doesn't matter where they are, So
let's go. So when I went inside or and I
tried to get inside, they put me through some three interviews,
(04:59):
but that I am fit enough to go to the
prison or not. And they've said that the said group.
Don't waste your time here these guys. You just can't
do anything with them. Every Sunday some Christian priest comes.
All they do is mischief, and Friday some Islamic guys
are coming. No good and another festival days and other things.
(05:21):
The Hindu people are coming. It's no good nothing. You
can't teach them anything, you can't do anything with them.
All they understand is there's beating punishment. This all you
don't waste your time here. Well, let me ask you
this prison was this considered a maximum security prison where
it is, and so the people there are mostly in
for murder or nearly nearly probably six hundred seven hundred
(05:48):
them of them out for murder, but largely long term prisoners.
Long term means in India, anything over eight years is
considered long term prison. So I said, give me a chance,
let me just talk to them. It took me a
little over two years to convince them that they should
(06:09):
let me in. So when we went in, there were
twelve wards. You know, in each ward there is something
like So we picked a ward which had over two prisoners,
the largest ward, and this is uh, everybody has come
there for life imprisonment. This means they have done either
(06:32):
murder or more. So I said, let me do this.
So they put full security armed police. Said take them out.
They're not going to harm me anything. Just take them out.
It's not a problem. They said, no, we cannot do that. Anyway,
There were some policemen. Then I asked him together outside
they all came looking at me, Okay, what is this
(06:53):
guy going to do with us? So we just arranged
a small game and started playing the aim with them. Okay,
so it's you, yes, two d H fifteen criminals harder
and softened. I don't know all of them are there
for murder or more. So we started playing a game
(07:16):
and they got so involved like little children. They screamed
and yelled, and they played the game full on for
about an hour. Then I stopped and then for about
half an hour because they gave me only two hours.
Next aboum two hours, you have to leave the prison.
So then I spoke to them for half an hour
and told them, see, this is what I wish to do.
All of you guys should write to the authority, to
(07:40):
the superintendent that you want this program for you. You
won't believe when I had to leave at the end
of two hours, at least sixty percent of them we're
all in tears. They're saying, you don't go, you stay
with us. So seeing this, then they allowed me to
conduct a program am The first program I did, it
(08:03):
was a ten day thing, two hours every day, ten days.
So I sought permission to stay inside the prison. I said,
let me stay there ten days with them, so that
they feel I'm They're really wanting to do something with them,
not just for cosmetic purposes. I couldn't get that permission
because there were some militants in India they called terrorists,
(08:26):
So some of the terrorists were imprisoned in that prison.
They said, no, we can't let you stay there. But
every day I went there. My thing was only for
two hours, but I went there, served mail to them,
participated with them in their break times. I was there.
We participated in all activity in the prison. In that
ward where these prisoners were there, weld. I want to
(08:48):
back up a second. So you would go in and
even the first time you said you play a game,
What kind of a game. We just played simple games.
We have certain homes like dodgeball and that kind of stuff. People. Yeah,
fun we had. So every day in the two hour
program ten days we had about half an hour or
forty five minutes was just games. Then we taught them
(09:11):
some simple process of yoga and spoke to them on
a variety of things. The kind of transformation it brought
about there. This prison on that day had a six
years of history. It was during the British era that
it was set up as a maximum security prison. In
this one thirty six years. Every day, literally every day,
(09:33):
someone was always in the solitary. The solitary in that
prison is like a four by four box four ft
by four ft steel box. There you can only sit,
you can't stand up. Jesus so in that they put
you for a week ten days like this. But after
we did the program, after we did three programs, I
(09:54):
think nobody went into the solitary for more than two year.
Is not a single person entered the solitary. That's a
kind of difference it made. And they burst forth into poetry.
Most of them are school dropouts or many of them illiterate,
but they all burst out into poetry, writing poems. We
(10:14):
have over three to four thousand poems which is being
released in India as a part of this. This program
be called as in a Freedom for the imprisoned. In
Freedom for the imprison I munna tell you this. There
was one guy, his name was Sham I think he's
been executed now. He was there for three murders which
(10:37):
he committed in the courtroom. He killed three people in
the courtroom. Wow. So that is a kind of crime.
You can't get away in the courtroom. When you do it,
it's considered the worst thing. Well, and it's pretty hard
to Yeah, I mean it's of the judge, your judges,
(10:57):
the eye witness. So yeah, pretty much done there. So
he wrote a poem which you know, brought the entire
prison into tears and just about anybody who reads the poem.
He just said he he's been in the on the
death row for about seven years. By then, every time
(11:20):
in the evening, see, daytime is quite okay in the prison.
From morning six to evening six, it's fine. Sunset, everybody
goes into the cells and the cell door closes. Normally
in India it's eight by five cell three people will
be there. That is when all all kinds of horrors begin.
One thing the prison psychologists told us is every day
(11:42):
in the night, in their sleep, people are howling like animals.
One simple thing that happened with the simple meditation process
we brought is people first sharing is they're sleeping peacefully.
All these sounds and yellings stopped. And this guy a poem.
Every day when the cell door closes, I thought this
(12:03):
was my grave, but now this has become my bodhi tree.
If the cell door closes, you know the bodhi tree
where Buddha God enlightened. When the cell door closes, I
closed my eyes and I am in a different world altogether.
This has become my Bodhi tree. He wrote this poem
in Tamil in the local language. So like this there
we've seen many, many fantastic transformational stories. See, the law
(12:30):
has its ways. I mean, it's not for me to
suddenly ask for a change in law or something, because
you have to maintain law and order in a country.
There are many issues, but no matter where a human
being is. Actually everywhere they call it a correction center,
but there is no room for correction. In fact, people
(12:51):
who go to prison for short stints and come they
become really hardcore criminals when they come out, at least
that's true in India. So when they go in they
may be just partic criminals, when they come out they
become serious level of crime. Right, that's a generalization here.
I shouldn't say that, but it does happen because it's logical.
And also when we people here come out, they come
(13:12):
out with a stigma having been in cars rated. It's
harder to get a job and it's harder, you know.
They if they had also come out with skills. Yeah,
they may learn criminal skills. But I want to say
to just not to direct your flow here, but today
is it is it particularly uh interesting day for you
to be here because as we were discussing before, today
is the day when Washington State abolished the death penalty,
(13:34):
becoming the twentieth state in America to to do so.
And hopefully we'll get all fifty because it's preposterous that
we said it's it's disgusting that we as a country
still execute people. It's also the eve of and you
brought this up. You know, we call it correctional as
you said, but it's just punitive. All all we do
is punish people. I mean, there are some little programs
(13:57):
here and there, but they've been cut back and cut
back and cut back, um, which of course is crazy too,
because the more we invest inside the prisons and helping
people to better themselves and to advance themselves spiritually as
you do, or educationally or whatever it is, um, the
better chance they have of not reoffending and becoming productive
citizens and paying taxes and and not causing problems on
(14:20):
the outside. And to that end, today tomorrow group is
going m about thirty correction officials. My friend Dan Sleptian
is going with them UH to tour prisons in Scandinavia
and parts of Europe to see how they do it there,
because there they focus on rehabilitation and they do it right.
So by and large, so hopefully that those some of
(14:41):
those practices will be brought back here. But I think
it's it's exciting that there is some progress and some momentum,
more than any time since I've started working on this
twenty five years ago. For for this type of change.
Of all the things, the most important thing is that
one who is imprisoned learns to handless condition in a
(15:04):
healthy manner within himself or herself. Please explain my work
is Essentially, it doesn't matter where you are, whether you
are in New York City or in India or in Africa.
You're a prisoner, you're a politician, you're a musician, it
doesn't matter who you are. Essentially, every human being has
(15:28):
the right to be joyful and peaceful outside conditions in
our lives. What the world throws at us is not
always determined by us, but what we make out of
it within ourselves is entirely ours dent. So to empower
people like this whether they are inside the prison outside
(15:50):
the prison, because those who are outside the prison doesn't
mean they're living joyfully. Many of them suffer more than
the prisoners. When I went into the prison in the
(16:11):
climate or where I personally worked. After that, we trained
teachers and now in the last twenty three years it's
become a mandatory program in southern Indian prisons. What I
saw was see when you go into the prison, it's
a pretty organized place. Your food comes on the dot,
(16:33):
your your door open, somebody opens doors for you, should
sit for you. I'm saying, it's a very organized place.
A lot of people aspire for that in their lives
and it never happens. The only problem is I've never
been into these prisons, either in India or in the
United States and come out without tears in my eyes,
(16:54):
simply because there is pain in the air. This is
how important freedom is for a human being. There's nothing else.
Food is on time. In fact, people who are living
in prison are far fitter than those people who are
living outside. They're very physically fit, they're well fed everything.
The only thing is there's no freedom, and how much
(17:16):
it hurts a human being is unbelievable. There's simply pain
in the air. If you just breathe that air, you've
you know, tears well up in your eyes. Not because
I think of something emotional about them, simply the very
atmosphere is full of pain. This is how significant freedom
means for a human being. If you just take away
that one thing, how much pain and how much damage
(17:40):
it does to a human being in a very profound
way is unbelievable. Well, and I do want to say
in America, of course, we have you know, conditions in
the prisons, in many prisons that are really terrible. And
that does extend to the food. Yes, you get three
meals a day, but the food is can be rotten,
(18:01):
it can be it's certainly not nutritious. Um. And you know,
it is something that I think there's there's disease prone, uh,
you know, because of the quality and the and the
substance that they're being fed. So I don't want to
sugarcoat that, but you are absolutely correct it is. I'm
not saying they're getting the best food. I'm saying regular food.
(18:23):
Regular they're never hungry. Food is given to them and
they're healthy because they fit. They kept themselves fit inside
the prison I'm not trying to illogize a prison. I'm
I'm trying to point out just because freedom is taken away,
how much it hurts a human. I think that's that's
a very good point, and it's interesting too. I'm reading
a book now. I'm almost finished with this book by
(18:45):
Anthony ray Hinton called The Sun Does Shine UM, and
it's his story of spending thirty years on death row
in Alabama for a crime he didn't commit, and how
he was able to escape from his uh, you know,
taking is his own mind and using it to escape
from this five by eight UH cell that he was
(19:06):
trapped in. UM. It's quite extraordinary, and I think that he,
like a lot of people, found some variation of the
principles that you teach UM on his own because it
was the only way that he could survive this unbelievable ordeal.
Seeing so many of the people around him executed, UH,
(19:28):
smelling that smell of death and all the other deprivations
of death row. It's it's quite remarkable. And to me,
I get so much UM inspiration and and UM gratitude
from being around UH these extraordinary individuals who have persevered
(19:53):
through these impossible conditions. And found, like I said, through
you know, necessity or despiration or inspiration or some combination
thereof again some variation of the very things that you
are able to bring inside. And I want to turn
to that too, because you've done work in prisons in
(20:14):
America as well. And how did that happen? Um, When
I came to Nashville, because we kind of centered around Nashville,
I visited this old prison from the kind of colonial times,
and they took me into this place where where the
(20:38):
executions happened. Just the just the energy that the stones
around the stone walls have absorbed and still exceued is
so terrible. So right there, I decided we need to
go to the prisons and do something. But we didn't
get permission in Tennessee, so we went to Kentucky and
(21:00):
then we came to Pennsylvania. These are two which allowed.
But then I found that there was a lot of
resistance from religious groups and others for any yoga or
anything to come in there openly or goued with me,
we will put them in prisons because we want them
to suffer. We don't want you to have them blissed out.
(21:22):
There was a lot of resistance and struggle. So we
have not done much in the last few years in America,
but in India it continues. Yes, it's it's I'm glad
you brought that up too, because I am trying to remember.
A friend of mine who I met acquaintance several years ago,
had been teaching UH yoga and meditation in prisons in
(21:43):
America and was so successful, um in terms of the
results being like what you described in India, where the violence,
the rates of violence inside the prisons plummeted, right, the
infractions of the prisoners, every aspect of it just was
so much better. Inmate on inmate violence, inmate inmate to guard,
vice versa. Everything just was so much better. Of course,
(22:06):
so they canceled the program, right, and it's really remarkable,
you know. We there's a case that I'm involved with now,
and this is how crazy our system is in America
in South Dakota where and you brought this to mind.
A guy his last name is rhymes uh. He was
sentenced to death by a jury who said that they
(22:29):
senced him to death instead of life because he's gay
and they felt that sensing him to life in prison
would entitle him to a life of enjoyment because he
would enjoy being in there and amongst the presence of
other men because he's gay. Um. Now, this is such
an outrageous and terrible thing for anyone to say, and
(22:50):
the idea that it's allowed to stand in this country.
It's almost like the jury was committing a hate crime. Um.
So many of us are working now, including people at
the this this project on trying to get clemency from
the governor, because it's it's it's it's an extreme version
(23:10):
of what you were talking about. The idea that we
sit there and say, well, we don't want there to
be any joy of any kind or any and you
contrast it with places like Norway, right where in Norway
the guards are trained for two years. My understanding is
that only ten of the ones who apply actually are accepted.
(23:31):
They're trained in psychology, they're trained in conflict resolution, they're
trained in all types of different protocols. And when people
are brought to the prison, the warden gives a speech
where he says something along the lines just first of all,
the guards sing a song and then and some people
listen are gonna say, well, this is outrage this is
(23:52):
too much. We can't do that. It's too nice or
whatever whatever, but this is the way they do it
over there, and the warden says it, makes a speech
and says something like, well, I recognize that your people,
your human beings, like me, and when you come out
you might be my neighbor. Therefore, I want to treat
you as my equal and treat you, as you know,
with dignity, so that when you are done with your
(24:13):
sentinels in the intention of correction is very alive. That's
what it means. Yes, over there, it's a very very
den in Germany. It's true to where they have that
the cells have locks, but they locked from the inside.
You know, how how different is that? Right? What a
simple change. They locked from the inside, so you could
have that's a home. When you lock from inside, it's
(24:34):
a home. I mean, you don't want to be there, right,
I don't want to be there. You don't want to
be there, No, no right minded person wants to be there.
But at least again, it provides a certain level of
dignity that allows for It's quite opposite. For that way
the poem that he wrote about every time the cell
door closed it felt like my grave, in that he
(24:55):
describes the clang of the boat when the damned door
and plan crack. They look it. He he always started
his death knell, you know, when he heard the soun
that life is over every day. It's it's just the
way somebody locks the door from outside, if you could
(25:17):
lock it from inside. It's a world of difference. It's
a world of difference. And again, the recidivism rates in
these countries are so much lower than ours because partially
because of the fact that these people are treated as
human beings when they go there and you know here,
and of course I do want to touch on this too,
and I'm interested in your take on this because in America,
(25:40):
we treat people with mental illness as pariah's um and
we lock them up instead of treating them for the
syndromes that they suffer from. Now, I'm not saying that
if someone is mentally ill and they go and kill
you know, people, that they shouldn't be punished in some way.
Um but uh. And I, like you, believe in a
(26:00):
system of law and order. I do think we need
a justice system. We need to be free society, but
we also everyone is entitled to be safe. Um So,
But it is incredible that we lock people with mental
illness up in these prisons at the numbers that we do,
the the estimates of the number of people who suffer
(26:22):
from a diagnosable medical uh you know, uh, recognizable mental
illness that are incarcerated in this country. I think it's
something like thirty of the inmates in this country have
this and so. And those people are damned to an
even more dire faith because of the fact that they
can't obey the rules, right, So they're constantly being punished
(26:44):
on top of their punishment because they're not mentally able
to sometimes understand or go along with due to whatever
it might be, schizophrenia or whatever they have. And so
they end up in the whole or they end up
in these you know, the shore or even worse can auditions,
and of course all that does is exacerbate their mental illness.
So what is your I mean, do you have any
(27:06):
insight into this? Say? Um? The thing is in the
different system of when people want to lawyers want to
defend their clients of very terrible crimes that have been committed,
the first step that they take is mental disorder because
it's the easiest way to get away. So I think
(27:27):
even those who make judgments, either a judge or jury
system in America, it's very hard for them to really
design for sure which is real mental illnolence, which is not.
Because every one of us, if we are willing, if
you push ourselves a little bit, we can cross the
line of sanity and behave in a certain way. A
(27:49):
lot of people do under our influence of alcohol or
a drug. They are crazy today, but tomorrow morning they
may be fine. Having said that, when somebody's diagno with
an illness, treating him as a normal person and punishing
him for those things is inhuman. But at the same time,
(28:10):
the system might not have evolved to a place to
handle such people. Well, there may be no systemic in
a country like America, you should be able to do it.
In India, I am saying we don't have a systemic
arrangement to be able to handle such people. But in
being in all these prisons, being in a community, no
(28:32):
communication with various prison authorities, I've not heard of mental
illness patients being there because usually they will be sent
to a mental institution rather than keeping them in prison,
because prison is simply not equipped to handle those things.
But we do not know how many people are there
(28:53):
who have nailment but who are not being properly diagnosed
as such and being treated as normal with punishments and stuff.
It must be happening, I'm sure. Yeah. In New York City,
we don't have facilities for people in those conditions. We
don't have the type of treatment centers that you would
associate with what many people think is the greatest and
(29:13):
one of the greatest cities in the world. I do.
I grew up here. I love my city. But it's
crazy that we have, uh, we have no ability to
to house these people in a secure but safe environment
where they can be treated and and hopefully get the
help that they need in order to overcome or or
or or get you know, some progress on these conditions
(29:34):
that are afflicting them. And so we put them into
the criminal justice system where they are you know, they're
going to be abused in ways that even that are
even worse than people who are mentally fit for these situations.
For these individual sufferings and dividual also systemic situation. One
(29:56):
significant aspect these we made a huge difference. The reason
why it's mandatory now in southern areas because the difference
it made to the people and how their behavior has changed.
And many of them who are known to be little
crazy and doing wild things inside the prison, all of
them leveled out. Just taking yoga into the prisons can
(30:18):
be a big thing. But when I say yoga, not
the kind of yoga you're doing in the studios in
New York City. There is another dimension of yoga. If
we take this dimension of yoga into prisons, if the
right kind of people take it in with at most care,
(30:38):
concern and compassion for the people inside, it can make
a phenomenal difference. It has made a big, big difference
in India. We're doing largely in southern India. There are
other people who are doing in northern part of the India.
And without doubt, every prison has reported significant changes in
the behavioral patterns and the amount of violence was there
(31:00):
in the prison because everything is settled. You know, hands
are the first things which move in these people. And
how does this how long does this particular? How many
minutes a day do people need to devote to the practice.
They just have to devote twenty one minutes a day,
twenty one minutes and uh seven days a week. And
(31:20):
the changes six days a week, just every day, every
day that you can't carry seven there's too much of
a burden to Kenny, I agree. When I heard myself
say that, I said, well, it sounds like a lot
that you said every day. I was like, well that
I could do. It's like it's like one day at
a time, right, So, um, never days come in bunches
at you. It only comes one at a time. Yeah,
(31:42):
that's isn't it such a wonderful grace that the creation
never throws bunches of days at you. Suppose it came
like a bunch of grapes, twenty five days came at
you at a time. What would you do, Especially if
it was like Wednesday, Thursday, and Monday at the same time,
or Sunday and Tuesday and Friday. It would be like
so confusing, you know what I mean, Nobody would know
(32:04):
what to do that. We have a metaphysical problem as well.
So how can we full time in America? Now? Not
most of the time. No, I have teams of people here, volunteers.
So we need to figure out a way to work
together to bring this UM teaching inside more prisons here
(32:24):
and see if we can. You know, I think this
would work much better on East coast and west coast,
But most of the work that we tried to do
we did it in the Midwest, and the levels of
resistance see the I think when we attempted this also
about eight ten years ago. From then to now, I
think the opinion of what yoga is has changed dramatically.
(32:47):
In America, people thought this is some religious practice from India.
Now they understand it is the science of well being.
So I think that understanding has sipped into the society
quite well now. So it should be much easier to
do it now than when we attempted to do it here.
So yeah, I mean, I would love to see if
(33:07):
we can work on it in New York State. You
know there are But the good news is there are.
As much as there's a lot of people in positions
of power who are maybe closed minded, there are also
a lot of people who are open minded and who
want to improve the conditions. And it's better for everyone
(33:28):
when we're able to do that. It's better for I
think everyone in that ecosystem of the prison, not just
the inmates, right, even the closed minded people when they're
very happy, they opened the minds a little bit so
that is my thing. People. They were amazed, How is
it these criminals, they're all behaving so well with you,
(33:49):
they're so happy with you. I said, this is all
it is. If you keep a human being happy, he's
a wonderful guy always. If you're unhappy, he could be heading.
That's different. That's true with everybody, isn't it. So twenty
(34:14):
one minutes a day not bad. Um, it's a way
of to put it, very simply, to put it technically,
It's like this. So all human experience has a chemical
basis to it. What you call a stress, what do
you call its anxiety? What you call its tranquility, misery, joy, agony, ecstasy,
Everything has a chemical basis to it within the system.
(34:36):
Now don't think about other chemicals in New York City.
I'm talking about the chemistry in the body. So every
human experience has a chemical basis to it. Now, if
you create a chemistry of blissfulness, you are blissful by
your own nature. This is like a chemical soup. You
(34:56):
are a chemical soup, actually a very complex chemical soup.
The question it only are you a great super a
lousy soup? So this is just about teaching people how
to make a great super out of yourself that it
tastes really wonderful from within. And when you're feeling wonderful,
you're naturally wonderful to everything around you. And how can people?
(35:19):
So people are listening now, right, I'm sure they're wondering,
how can I get involved with this? How can I myself?
I'm not in prison, I'm out bad about doing whatever
I'm doing. A lot of people listening in their cars,
those who are imprisoned not by the government but by
their own nature. But but this practice, this magical twenty
(35:39):
this is like a tease to people. Right, They're listening
to the other, going where is this twenty one minute?
How do I find these twenty What do I do?
It's called aner engineering. They must look it up under
engineering inner engineering. And there's YouTube videos and things so
I can learn because I want to learn myself. Now.
You know, there's even a propriatory online program. Uh huh.
And you can just pull it up and just start
doing it right now. Yes, they can. I can envision
(36:02):
people now driving to work and pulling over on the
side of the roads. Of people across the world have
done it. We had an organization which is completely run
by volunteers. We have about four thousand, uh full time
volunteers and over nine million part time volunteers. It's all
done by them. Well, I mean, you might have nine
million and one by the time we finished with this podcast,
(36:23):
because right so it's www Dot Inner Engineering dot com.
Www Dot inner Engineering dot com. And I want to
also say, I mean, I've I've had the privilege of
getting to know so many people who are either still
on inside prison like Yan Serring, who is those those
(36:45):
people that you have helped to come out, those who
are wrongly incarcerated, and now you help them to come out.
We would be privileged to conduct a special program for
them if they're in one place somewhere. Okay, fantastic, We're
gonna you know what we're gonna do. We will will
organize that for the next Innocence Network conference, where we're
going to have approximately two hundred people who are wrongfully
convicted all gathering together. We will do the program we
(37:08):
love for the program at our cost. We will whatever
is needed for those people that would be wonderful and
much appreciate, and we're gonna make that happen. Um. But
I was gonna say too that I've had the privilege
of getting to know some extraordinary people like Sonny Jacobs,
who I was talking to you about before, who was
sentenced to death, who taught herself these practices from things
she remembered seeing on TV. And this was in the
(37:28):
seventies when she was convicted, late seventies, early eighties, um,
and who got her you know, who managed to maintain
her sanity in her years in isolation on death row
by by using some similar, you know, techniques, practices. And
then there's a guy who I always think about, Nimen Sering,
who's still in after thirty one years in Virginia, who
(37:48):
is a meditation practitioner and a Thai Chi master, and
I know he's teaching others in the in the prison
that he's in in Virginia some of these practices and
writing books about it and other things like that. So
you know, it's it's it's out there and it's already percolating,
and you know it's helping people, but it needs to
(38:12):
be done on a much more organized and organized Scalely
scale is important if you want to see the difference.
That's the word I was looking for, a scale. So
I would love to see if we can start. I mean,
for instance, I think New York State is a good
place to start. UM. We have um some very good
people and positions of great authority inside the correction system
(38:33):
who I think would be very open minded to this UM.
And I have a prison in mind right now. Or
my friend J. J. Velasquez, John Age of last Quas
has been on the show, is still locked up in
sing Sing and I think we're gonna let's explore and
see if we can bring this practice inside there. They
do a lot of wonderful things their voices from within
and other programs that are that are progressive, I would say,
(38:55):
but this would be I mean, there's so many good
things that can come out of you being here. And
I was starting this this process now. Now it's interesting
because you're such a such an interesting and inspirational man,
and yet you are a victim of the same affliction
as I am, which is called golf. So why why
(39:17):
do you suffer? I don't suffer that as an infliction.
It's just that I used to play a variety of games.
I played a lot of field hockey when I was young.
I played soccer, being in India, played cricket. I was
When I was in school, I was in some twelve
disciplines of games. That's all. I did, just bot most
(39:39):
of the time. But about seven eight years ago, I
was playing soccer with the kids and I tore my
a c L and my left knee cartilage. So after
that injury, I was just sitting. I had an event
and I was sitting at a dinner table and somebody
brought one brand new tailor made golf it and they said,
(40:01):
it's time you play golf. You're too old for the
other games. You're time. It's time you understand this. The
next day I all packed up my knee. I went
to the golf course, straight onto the course. I've never
been to a driving range till now. I just went straight,
straight on the course and I hit the ball. It
went straight there was It's amazing. I said, what's a
big problem. It's a bloody sitting ball, not moving. He's
(40:23):
not moving. It's a sitting ball. Any other game I played,
the ball was coming at me at different angles, different velocities,
different spins. Here it's sitting. What's a big deal about
hitting it? So I never took a lesson. I've never
been on a range now I'm playing for a handicap
of not bad. Pretty amazing. Um, you'd like gonna be
(40:46):
the successor to Tiger Woods or something like that. We're
gonna get you on the tour. It's gonna be amazing,
self taught and everything else. Um So, and I think
we may we may have to go out and hit
some balls together tomorrow. Um. I think the weather is
going to cooperate. So that's the plan and I'm excited
about that. Will with the ball will sit there and
wait for us, and we will go out there and
(41:07):
address it problems anybody. It sits and yeah, and it
doesn't know who we are either until we hit it.
And it is amazing because when people ask me about
golf and they say, um, we're getting way off topic here.
But people who don't play golf, they ask me, why
why do you do? This is a waste of time
four hours just at the other what. First of all,
you're out there in nature. It's beautiful. It's grass and
water and trees and birds and air and whatever. It's
(41:28):
very nice, you know, nice day whatever. You're with friends
and social. But moreover, on those rare occasions when you
actually hit a golf ball, properly, and you can. The
physics are the same in golf as other sports with balls.
Right when you hit one side of the ball, it
compresses and then that energy has to go somewhere, so
it explodes out the other side of the ball and
then the ball flies. And on that rare occasion when
(41:50):
I have had the privilege of hitting it properly, you
can actually feel that compression and it goes through the
ball to the club, into your hands and throw your body,
into your soul and connects you to the center of
the universe in a way. That is that's my that's
my definition. I don't know it does. Like I said,
it happens maybe once every few rounds, but that shot
(42:11):
is what I live for when I'm out there. You know,
it's just such a great amazing thing. And then unlike
other sports, you don't have to run, Nobody tackles you, nobody,
nobody's saying to take your ball. You just go and
walk and look and catch catch up with the ball
and think a little bit, what kind of shot. And
it's a very nice little breeze. That's nice, nice, nice.
So hopefully tomorrow will have that experience. I can't guarantee it,
(42:32):
but we'll see what It freaks people, mainly because they
got nobody to blame, but the ball that went into
the lake they annoy. It's them. That's what you see
people freaking because they know if it's any other game,
you can say the other guy did it. Here there
is nobody else when the ball lands in the lake,
(42:52):
you know it's just you. That's what makes them make
people go totally crazy. So there's a strong element of
personal responsibilities, which is pretty hint thing out there which
I can see that so UM grew before we close, UM,
I wanted to do the same thing I do when
I'm every more or less every episode, which is to
(43:13):
ask my guests if if I can just turn the
microphone my microphone off, UM and and thank you again
for being here and sharing your your thoughts and your
experience and your wisdom with with me and with the audience,
and then just turn it over to you for any
(43:34):
other ideas that you would like to share. So this
is something everyone should understand that everybody is some kind
of a prisoner of their own making, some unfortunately by
the state, but rest by themselves. When I said prisoner,
(43:56):
people have limited themselves in some way, they've drawn their
own by boundaries, the boundaries maybe of gender, race, or religion,
or ethnicity or nationality. We've drawn boundaries that we cannot
cross in our own minds, which is the basis of
so much of suffering that's happening within human beings. So
(44:17):
we need to understand this as there is a science
and technology for external well being. When I say science
and technology for external well being, if you just look
back and see what is the level of comfort and
convenience that people enjoyed a hundred years ago and what
is the level of comfort and convenience who are enjoying today,
(44:38):
it's just unbelievable. No generation ever knew these kind of
comforts and conveniences, so we should be the most joyful generation.
But such a thing has not happened simply because we've
fixed the outside too much, done nothing about our interiority.
So as there is a science and technology for external
(44:59):
well being, there is a whole science and technology for
inner well being. You don't have to believe anything, you
don't have to belong to any group, if you just
learn a few things about how to manage your body,
how to manage your thought, process, your emotion, and your energies.
If these four dimensions your body, mind, emotion, and energy
(45:20):
take instructions from you, you will live healthy, you will
live blessed out, and you will live a powerfully intense life.
This is possible for every human being when it comes
to the outside action. Not to human beings are equal.
What we can do with our body, what we can
do with our mind, not to human beings are equal.
(45:41):
But when it comes to the inner dimension, all of
us are equally capable. Such a thing has not happened
to most people simply because they never paid attention to
what is within. They thought by fixing the outside, everything
will be okay. You see the hammer banging, because they
think by fixing the outside, everything is gonna be okay.
We have more comfort and convenience in any generation ever
(46:02):
had in the history of humanity. We are the most
comfortable generation ever. But we are almost complaining like neurotic
complaint level, simply because we have not done anything about
the inner nature of who we are. So what we
are referring to us in engineering is this possibility. This
(46:22):
is not only for people who are in some state
of suffering or imprisoned or whatever. First and foremost thing
is people in positions of responsibility and power must get
this because if they don't break their limitations within themselves,
if though they don't erase the boundaries of their individuality you,
(46:43):
they cannot change the situation. They cannot bring about a
new possibility. You have heard the word yoga. Of course,
the word yoga means union. The yoga, the word yoga
does not mean twisting and turning. Yoga means union. Union
means there is you and the universe. Right now. If
you look at individual human beings, their life is like
(47:07):
it is you versus the universe. You versus universe is
a stupid competition to get into the Yoga means consciously
you raise the boundaries of your individuality. Where there is
no you and the universe, You are a part of
the universe in your living experience, not as an idea,
not as an intellectual process, not as an emotional process,
(47:30):
but as a living experience. Like you experience the ten
fingers of your hand, you experience all life around you.
If if a human being is touched by this experience,
even for a moment, the very way you perceive, experience,
and express your life alters dramatically, and that is what
needs to happen. We are just doing uh cosmetic changes
(47:51):
to human beings by teaching them morality, ethics, small changes
in attitudes. This is not good enough. Only when you
experience the other as myself, everything about you changes. This
is what yoga means, this is what in engineering means.
In a way. On that note, um, I want to
thank you again for media in whatever way we can
(48:13):
be useful for these people who have been unjustly punished
by a society. We will do our best. Please call
upon us whenever we needed. Thank you, I will be
doing so. And thank you for that very kind and
generous offer. And also get ready to be beaten in
the golf game tomorrow. Oh boy, I thought we are
one and one is the two and the other one
(48:34):
is together and we're gonna I'm gonna be on with
the universe. So okay, Well, it's good to know that
that doesn't that doesn't extend all the way to the
golf course. It stops at the entrance to the club.
So anyway, well, this has been a real treat for me.
(48:58):
Don't forget to give us a fair tastic review. Wherever
you get your podcasts. It really helps, and I'm a
proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope
you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and
helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project
dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.
I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
(49:20):
Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three
time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a
production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal
Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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