August 6, 2018 • 50 mins
On December 27, 1996, 35-year-old Tyrone Camp was fatally shot in the head and back as he was warming up his truck at Active Transportation Co. in Louisville, KY. The murder was witnessed by Kenneth Brown, who told police he had seen the assailant running away, but that he could not identify him. The focus shifted to Kerry Porter, who had also once been married to Camp’s wife, after the victim’s brother showed the witness a picture of Kerry. Brown identified Kerry as the assailant on two separate occasions. Kerry Porter was eventually convicted of the murder of Tyrone Camp and sentenced to 60 years in prison. His devastating conviction was built on mistaken witness identification, perjury, and a false accusation. He was exonerated in 2011 thanks in part to the Innocence Project and–in a strange turn– the television show Bay Watch.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
Everything like everything.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
with this. How is this possible?
Speaker 4 (00:28):
I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing
that every human being should do the right thing. And
that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
corrough people, I wasn't going to breb anyone to get
me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the
fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.
I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it's come
a little ways, but it's still broken.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is a wrongful conviction. Welcome back.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
To Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm That's me, and today
we have an amazing guy. Carrie Porter is our guests
on the show. Carrie, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Thank you, Jason, thank you very much for having me here.
Speaker 5 (01:30):
Now, I got to tell you carry even though I've
been doing this kind of work for about twenty five years,
when I was I had to read your story several
times because he's got more twists and turns than a
John Grishall novel.
Speaker 6 (01:41):
That's funny you say that because my child, judge Thomas
Wan is now Conwell attorney, and he said he mentioned
that my lawyer's motion were like a John Grissom's movie.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
Okay, well, so, John, if you're listening very much in
the right, but your case has love trying, It has
mistaken witness identification, it has perjury, it has false accusations,
it has corruption at the highest levels, it has cover ups,
it has I mean, it's got so many factors that
(02:12):
you know and and you know, and then murders happening
left and right around that would have pointed arrows in
different directions. And you know, I mean insurance claims and
questions and like I mean it's really we're going to
try to unravel this for the audience.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Today, so everyone's gonna have to really follow along because
this is crazy.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Good luck if we do that. The only I still have, The.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Only thing I can promise is that there's a happy ending,
you know, because there is.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yes, there is first night.
Speaker 7 (02:44):
A loibl man free from prison after fourteen years for
a crime he didn't commit. Terrry Porter has a new
look at life thanks to these seven works.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Mister Porter did not commit this offense.
Speaker 7 (02:56):
The Commonwealth's Attorney says Porter was wrongfully convicted for the
nineteen ninety six murder of Tyrone Camp. New information came
to light last year as part of a separate murder investigation.
A key witness, Francois Cunningham, said Porter was set up
for Camp's murder.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
And I've seen you.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
It's amazing, and we're going to get right into the story.
But I've seen you speak on video, I saw you
do a press conference, and you know, you really have
a remarkable spirit, and you know, I know you've done
a lot of work trying to help prevent these things
from happening to other people, and you know, you have
all my respect for everything that you're doing.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Thank you as you man.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
Okay, well, so let's get right into it. So you're
from Louisville, Kentucky, grew up on the same street as
Muhammad Aldi.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yes, soy fourth and Grand.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
And you actually got to meet the legend that one.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
Oh yes, yes, Cagon actually, yes, the greatest, the greatest.
The first time was in the seventies when this job
was broke.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Wow, amazing, what a story.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
And so in the mid nineties, Well, what was Louisville
like at that time? Was it a particularly violent time
in Louisville.
Speaker 6 (04:05):
Yes, I have the in ninety six that was the
first risese of the murder rate. I have the sixty
eight people got killed, and I have the last body
to Tyrone count whilst his life December to twenty seventh
or nineteen ninety six, and ironically they charged me with
the last body. But in May to June, the mayor
(04:29):
had to get on TV and assure the public that
these murder investigations would be immediately handled, expedingly and professionally
and everything else, and that assurance went out the door.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
Well yeah, so what he was basically saying is we'll
get these solved, right, or wrong. Right, we're just gonna
get We're gonna make everybody feel comfortable, even though you
should feel very uncomfortable because a real killer might well
be out there.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Well, politics has tales no better tal.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
There you go, so solet's go. Let's go to this
crazy case.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Right.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
So the murder victim was a guy named Tyrone Camp, correct,
a thirty five year old man, And can you explain
the whole circumstance and how the connections led to you?
And there was a witness that wasn't sure then he was.
I mean, the whole thing is like, but you take
us back because you actually, unfortunately you lived through this,
right And like I always say to my guest, I'm
(05:22):
happier here, but I'm sorry you're here. Yeah anyway, But okay,
so let's go back to this murder in nineteen ninety
six of Tyrone Camp.
Speaker 6 (05:30):
Tyrone Camp unfortunately ran across my little boy's mama, Cecilia Sanders.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Well Sanders now, but then it was Cecilia Kirkpatrick.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
We had been in a relationship for a rocky relationship
for nine years in which we had little carry at
the time that our leftlow carry because of Drew my
drug use.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Little Carry was five years old.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
So Tyrone Camp came along and he was a far
better man than I and I science over parental's rights,
and I think ninety three, I thought, because I did
time for child support, well, Tyrone was raising my son,
doing a real good job of it. What Kerry was
accustomed accustomed to was fishing and hunting, and Tyrone didn't
(06:18):
know how to do any of that. So he found
out how to do it and stuff and had little
Kerry up on his wings as if he was me,
despite him never doing that before in his life.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
So little Kerry got the love in him.
Speaker 6 (06:31):
And on December to twenty seven, his little Kerry's mama's
involved in what appears that she is one of the
person did more than likely she's the person adventures in
the death of Tyrone Camp.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And what was the motivation here? And who I mean?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Obviously it's still speculation because there hadn't been any real
not any real serious reinvestigation ever since you got out,
which is now several years ago, but which is a
very I mean, I saw your lawyer speaking very eloquently
and very powerfully on this topic. Yeah, and it's it's
a it's a heavy topic. But because like I said,
it involves cover ups and corruption at the highest levels.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
My goodness.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
So what was the motivation and how did this because
it sounds like from everything you're saying this tyrone Camp
was a pretty good guy, but very good. There was
there was some insurance money involved, is that right?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Correct? Insurance money?
Speaker 6 (07:25):
It's been rumored different things my investigation in the fifteen
years it took to get me out. Was it Cecilia
and her boyfriend Juan, the oldest Sanderu as the streets say,
scored up to anywhere from a half a million to
over a million dollars in insurance proceeds I do know,
(07:46):
and and did open records requests and manipulated the system
one we another and got a hold of records in
which I seen it. Four different agency paid your money.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
So there was a witness to this crime, right, yes,
uh huh, because it happened in like a.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Active transportation company, right in a lot, right?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And so was it at night six six thirty five.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
In the mornings when he was pronounced dead, am am.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So there would have been some daylight to work.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
With, not at six thirty five December.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
The service is the shortest daylight time of the year,
so Urn the twenty first is the longest.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
So that's an interesting one too, because of the fact
that this witness would not have.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Been reliable regardless right in the dark.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
But okay, and so the witness, Kenneth Brown Brown, he
changed his story a few times, is that right?
Speaker 6 (08:44):
As Thomas Wyane said, And Thomas Wyne shouldn't let him
proceed to trial. He with old and he waffled, but
he foually. Family is a key word described Kerry Porter.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
So on top of the arrows, that would seem I
mean again, if we're writing a movie script, you know,
you'd say, well, this looks a little too obvious because
you got the insurance money, right, you got this other
guy Sanders right, was involved with your ex yes, right,
(09:15):
So there's a pretty powerful narrative going on there how
they might have wanted him gone, although it's hard to
believe a mother's love, you know, and being that you
described him so eloquently as such a good father to
your son.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
One would think that that.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
Maybe that would triumph over the greed. But greed is
a powerful thing, very powerful, and that's a lot of money, yes, so,
but even still the rest your arrest didn't happen right away,
probably because they didn't have a good reason to suspect you.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
No, not, not not in the beginning at all.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
No, right because there was you didn't stand to benefit
from this in any way.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
No, and you weren't elos of them.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
From everything you're saying, You're actually happy that he was
filling the role that you at that time as a
young man. And I'm not here to judge. I mean,
I was how old were you at the time you
had your son?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
At the time I heard Loil Kerry was twenty three.
I was a late fablem so late in Kentucky.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
New York called that early.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
But anyway, twenty three, I think a lot of people,
and a lot of people are listening probably can relate
to this. I think a lot of people at twenty
three are still trying to find themselves, much less take
care for another little being. I'm not saying that. I'm
not saying your behavior was great or rationalize it. But
at the same time, I'm not here to judge. So
the question becomes, they wouldn't have arrested you because it
(10:37):
didn't look like there was any real reason to There
was Additionally, nobody identifying you. And also there was no
again that the I mean crime investigation one oh one.
Anyone who watches TV would go, wait a minute, why
didn't they look at the people who had the motivation?
And that would have made more sense, especially because something
(10:58):
happened seven months later that have really put anybody onto
that trail. Very good, correct, yes, But by then they
had arrested you. And let's get to it because that
seven months is a very interesting twist in this.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
It's a key factor. It's a key factor, should have
been a key factor.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
But it wasn't right, so it wasn't so they arrested you.
I mean, why do you think they did that?
Speaker 6 (11:19):
And when they arrested me February to twenty, and their
alleged motive was that I was jealous that Tyrone Camp
had stole my girls as stated in the opening statement,
and that raising my kid. That was a motive for
trial that came about through Detective Kids Rodney Kidd's investigation.
That's supposed to have been that I had prior in
(11:42):
nineteen ninety one, I had trashed so Siia's apartment in
which me and me carry and Cecilia was supposed to
have been sharing an apartment, but Tyrone was coming over on
the weekends. So sal has been involved in several loved true,
she transferred from one guy that's just doing good to
(12:04):
a better guy that's doing greater, and that's her.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
That was her come up.
Speaker 6 (12:09):
So that the commonwealth thought that I was the person
because of this ninety one trashing the apartment, that that's
created the background for the motive. The only difference, Jason,
is that that background was a five over five years old,
that it had nothing else happened in five years, and
that did Tyrone Tyrone had. When I trashed apartment, I
(12:33):
did it in front of Tyrone, and it was said
that I put pulled a gun on Tyrone at that apartment,
but there was nobody there to tell their story. But
Tyrone and Tyrone count is the one that save me
on the ninety one indictment of trashing the Derbrook apartment.
He told them that no, Kerry did not put a
gun in my head. Kerry did not hold me hostage,
(12:56):
and Carrie had nothing against me.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It was all against.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
Seals you anyway and charge you with the crime. Now again,
I'm thinking with sixty eight murders in the city the size.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Of Loale, and I have the last body on a
political year.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Right, so they need they need to put a ball
on this one, right.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
Hey, why not snatch anybody they had with all of
this background that they had on me, that that to
me gave them probable calls to come after me. Just
got out of penitentiary, has a background for violence itself,
especially with the.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Lags ninety one incident.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
And I think that they used that ninety one in
my background to say, hey, look, carry's own drugs. He
just got out of penitentiary. If he put the case
on him, he'll just go down like any other drug
and dummy and won't work on this case. It backfired
on him, but it got became an easy target in
my opinion.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
But it got a little trickier because seven months later,
like you were talking about good.
Speaker 6 (13:58):
Uh huh, you want to tell that's yes, I do
on June to thirteenth that here happens to be a
Friday thirteenth. So nineteen ninety seven, Cecilia Sanders, well send
your camp was involved as a getaway driver in a
Hemlock murder in which Juan Sanders wan Leo Sanders shot
(14:21):
and killed Antoine Chapman. He also shot shot Antoine's mother,
Anita Watts. He also shot his own uncle John. They
called John Dirty Sanders, and he walked away with a
twelve year sentence for all these shootings. But this is
six months later after the murder of Tyrone Camp.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
That should have raised arag fact to the Louisville Police.
Then it was ALPD. It should have raised a red flag.
But the difference, Jason is that at the time Louisville
hadn't merged as Metro. It was Louisville Jeffson County Police
versus Louisville Loisill Downtown Police. So the county police knew
(15:04):
of my innocence and fought for my innocent and the
Louisville Police fault to frame me. Wow, that's that's deep.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
That's a new one.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
We've heard a lot of stories on this show, listeners.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
I've heard, you know, I have people telling me, man
this one that everyone has a different one that they
they point to as the craziest one. But I've never
heard that particular. That's so odd because you have separate entities.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
But up under the same head.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
It's starting to heard from this, so you have.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
You're the only one who does this if so many
twists in turn, people say, how do you deal with this?
Speaker 5 (15:39):
And and by the way, when I was mentioning all
the twists and turns earlier and all the I mean,
all the factors in your crazy story of being framed
and convicted wrongfully and everything else, that I forgot to
mention the jail house snitch, which is a very important.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Part of the story too, great gully.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
Right, So, and there's a very very interesting as to
that too, which I think when everyone hears this, there's
gonna be a few people signed up for law school
going I want to be the guy that discovers that
kind of stuff, because it's great and that and that,
you know, let's let's get into this aspect of the case,
because so here it is. Seven months later, an inconvenient
(16:19):
truth emerges, which is that the two logical suspects, Cecilia
and Uh and Juan Sanders end up being caught red
handed shooting three people. And now you go, okay, so
let me just see here like this, we could be
in like eighth grade. We sit here and go, wait
(16:40):
a minute, okay, but hold on, there's there's now there's
the insurance money, there's the there's the propensity to violence,
that same kind of thing. Shootings like it's really this one,
as I say, this one comes with instructions, right, but instead,
but that being said, that didn't throw anybody off the case.
They were still ell bent on getting you. And in
(17:03):
order to do that, they found a convenient uh willing,
very willing, who was happy to make a deal. And
and this is something that I mentioned at times to time,
but the idea to me that everyone knows to watches
TV or has any type of education whatsoever in this country,
(17:24):
everyone knows you cannot bribe a witness, right, So you
can't go to uh, you know whatever, I see somebody
shoplifting or whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It is and they bring me in.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
So that guy can't come to me and say, well,
I give you one hundred dollars, but just tell them
with somebody else, right, that ain't happening. Everybody knows that's
a gets the law. But the government can go to
a jailhouse snitch and say, listen, I'm going to give
you the best bribe there is. I'm going to reduce
your sentence or let you give you a get out
of jail free card or whatever it is. All you
(17:55):
got to do is tell us the story on the
stand that Harry told you. It happens all the time.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Carry told you.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
That he did this murder, and you're gonna go, we're
gonna be real nice to you, right, And that's exactly
what happened. And by the way, I don't even want
to judge that guy because I don't know what his
particular situation is.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I'm not going to excuse it.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Either, But exactly, I don't know how anybody in that situation.
I mean, I hope I know how people would react,
because it's the wrong thing to do. But it's a
difficult you know, it would require a lot of soul searching.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
If someone saying, listen, you go.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Hold your family right right now, you're looking at you're
looking at ten to twenty for whatever it is our
robbery that we're gonna right and anyway, So but this
guy was happy to take the deal. And interestingly, we
know that jailhouse snitches are often used multiple times. They
get placed in cells either with or right next to
(18:51):
people that the authorities.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Want, and then they sing like a bird. So that's
exactly what this guy did.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
But tell us about that, and let's get to the trial, right,
Because how long did it take you to get to trial?
Speaker 6 (19:01):
They tried me for that murder in eighteen months. The
trial day was August twenty fifth to begin. I was
twenty fifth of nineteen ninety eight. I was in ninety
February to twenty of nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
You do the math.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Eighteen months in about five days, so you go to trial.
Uh did you know that this guy was going to
testify against you?
Speaker 6 (19:20):
Yes, I was given his statement and knew before I knew.
When I knew he was a jail house plan. It
was all over that he was a jail house plan.
And Greg Gully still performed, still perform. Craig was jail Houston.
Greg Gully gave an interview on February the twelve. They
(19:42):
put my case to Geller. Kenneth Brown did identification on
February to tenth. Greg Galliy did his on February to twelve,
and Marcus Pinograd is a friend of mine to head
a case pending. He gave his on April twenty second
of ninety seven. Those other days in the critical days
in which the Commonwealth put his witnesses together against me.
(20:04):
But great Gully was by far, as the drawer later said.
After my post conviction relief and doing Melan Go interviewed
these people, and these drawers said that we weren't convinced
with nobody but Greg Gully. Greg Gully sold us hand, foot,
tooth and nail.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
So they picked a guy who was a good actor
to a good liar and a good actor. But he
made one critical mistake, right, he made the Baywatch mistake.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yes he did.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Okay, So the jury goes out. How long did the
trial last?
Speaker 6 (20:45):
The trial lasts six days, so dead to Aux aug
thirty first, and I told my lawyer that it would
be a two week trial, and she didn't put on
she tried, and she didn't call most of the people that I.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Wanted to call.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
What did you think?
Speaker 5 (21:03):
And it is interesting too because we've had people on
the show whose trials took up to three weeks, I think,
And then we had Malcolm Alexander whose trial took less
than one day. Start to finish youry selection, everything else
I have sent to life in prison. So your trial
six days. You've now heard these people get up and lie.
(21:23):
Now before we get to the jury verdict. There was
one thing that I read when I was reading up
about your case that was confusing to me, which was
that your alibi was disputed by the one person who
could confirm it right, right, So how did that happen?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
What went wrong there?
Speaker 6 (21:43):
My niece, My niece said she didn't mean to my
lawyer didn't interview her. And and I'll know my sister
and so my niece when she told she cantun to stand,
she said that she thought that I can came in
at eleven something, that eleven something on December the twenty sixth,
(22:05):
before the twenty seven and the actual time that I
did come in was four point thirty at five o'clock.
I was using drugs at the time and I've been
getting high all night on orangemer. So when my sister said,
when my niece said at eleven, my sister said, the
real time was at at four thirty to.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Five five o'clock, five fifteen. What happened there?
Speaker 6 (22:27):
When you got a controversy like adver beteen two family members,
they think that that one, you know, one person's trying
to save them and the other one was telling them
the truth. So that left a bad impression with the jewelry.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
I see.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
So it's really it wasn't really that they contradicted you.
It was more of a misunderstanding between them, which ended
up looking like you were lying.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Correct and the Donald.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
What you're getting at is Donald Bruteley, Donald Brutley I
was supposed to have been. When I gave my saving
on January seventh, or ninety seven, I told the Louisville
Police that I uh. They said, do you know where
you was at this time?
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Right here?
Speaker 6 (23:05):
I said, yeah, probably probably over my girlfriend's house. Did
y'all argy fight? Probably so, because we was doing drugs.
So when I told him the time that I was
over a house, she had been in Jadak for two days.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I was two days off. But I told my lawyer.
They put it.
Speaker 6 (23:25):
They we had a hearing on it, and they produced
that I was a legedly lying. But Jason, when a
lot of people don't know when you're doing drugs, Cocaine's
the only thing I really know. Reefer didn't do that
to me. But when you're doing cocaine, when you have
a big piece of drug right here, well the days
only matter to real working people and real people when
(23:46):
you when you own drugs and stuff. The only thing
that matters is that one piece of drug realther the
last one day at tend days, that's only one day
because you only doing that moment. So so when when
when we doing drugs on my spree, we get the
times mixed up because it's only one day to us
(24:07):
as long as the drug glass, that's only one day
of doing drugs, even though it's five days.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
It is a bad drug and the pat tricks on
your mind. And that is one thing I don't recommend
to anybody, do I do.
Speaker 6 (24:20):
I struggle with that, and basically penitentiary broke it good.
Speaker 5 (24:25):
Here we are at the trial. Things don't sound like
they were looking very good. I mean, but what was
your feeling? I mean, you had now been seeing some
crazy stuff, some some real games that they were playing.
You've seen that they were willing to go to extraordinary right, Yes,
(24:45):
And when the jury went out, did you think that
you had a chance?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
No, Jason, Because that's let me take you back a
little bit. Jason.
Speaker 6 (24:57):
When I first seen this on TV, my mother taught
my sister told me about it, and so I went
to go and look at her.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Keep in mind, I'm coming on.
Speaker 6 (25:04):
For drugs or doing drugs at the time and December
twenty seven, so it's two days after Christmas. So Jason,
when I see it on TV, it was like my
little brothers, my friend Joe Talker, and all these people
that was in the room looking at the same time.
My sister said, somebody kills Seal's husband. You need to
look at it on TV.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Well I was.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
I was knowing I ain't do that, and so I'm
stopping to me other than the harble flying.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
So when I see it on.
Speaker 6 (25:32):
TV, it was like God was right behind me, and
God told me, and listen, I've been trying to get
you to do my work and and basically change your life.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
You've been running for all this time. This is you.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
So Jason, I knew that day God told me everything
that I was going to be incarcerated for. There was
no stopping it. So that you can tell all you
want about how other this case is gonna be. Nobody's
gonna believe you so so so, but God said in
the end I will prevail and that my name will
(26:09):
be glorified. So that's the way this case went. So
Jason went when everything that happened, nothing surprised me because
God had already told me.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
That's why.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
Now, even though I was doing drugs and stuff, I
was shocked into a religious experience that I never I mean,
I told everybody, listen, man, they're gonna they're gonna get
me on this case. All of my friends said, man,
will stop saying that you don't have nothing to do
with it. Why would you be saying that, man, y'all
not understand. Man, they're gonna frame me. Man, y'all not
(26:40):
understand listening to man Krisch telling us that I told
my buddy for reed.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I told during Woods.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
I told all some close people to me, and they
all thought I was crazy. So so Jason. When when
the verdict came back in forty minutes, I was not shocked.
I was beyond calm. Interesting enough, you should see the fine.
I was beyond calm, and I knew that I knew
that I had to go down and fight it from
(27:08):
behind the bars.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
But you also knew there was going to work out
in the end. So and it did.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
And that's and that's a really interesting part of the
story because how this thing eventually unraveled. And actually, you know,
as much as I don't think anyone can comprehend what
you went through eleven years behind bars.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It's actually sort of. I mean, the.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Average case takes longer of an innocent person to get
their conviction overturn, and we know that most innocent people
never convict get their convictions overturned because there's so many.
In fact, the latest estimate that just came out is
that six percent of all the people in prison in
the United States are innocent. So there you are in
prison for this crime you didn't commit, and since the
(27:51):
sixty years so basically life sentence.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
You would never be on a life sentence, right.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
You wann't you want to go to live sixty years
in there?
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Had you know?
Speaker 6 (28:02):
I knew day one that I was calm about every
time because it was the Book of Daniels. I'm gonna
come out smelling like a rose.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
And God assured me that.
Speaker 6 (28:13):
And I assure God that if you give me enough wisdom,
enough strength to fight this case, I would have everybody
that comes to me is willing to have themselves. I
went straight in, went straight to the law library, worked
a law library for the whole fifteen years. Like I say,
I'll call it fifteen from December to twenty February twenty two.
(28:33):
I got out of December nineteen and Jason. I worked
in a law library every.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Day all day.
Speaker 6 (28:40):
I did this case a minimum of twelve hours minimum.
If I I have, I had seventeen laundry bags of
legal work. I still have those laundry bags of legal
work in a storeage unit. My mother told me to
make a chair and I'm gonna do it and take
a picture of it. Seventeen bags. So she tells me
(29:01):
to make a chure of and sit in there and
pose and take a picture of it. The country. Everybody
needs to see that. But that's what it took to
get me out. I know each one of those pieces
of paper either I hand written them from the whole.
I typed them up on two typewriters. I wore out
the typewriter the E and the A was completely wore out.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I had the people say, man, I can't see the letter.
They can, they won't use them typewriter. I can't see
the letters on the alphabets or nothing. I say, yeah,
but here's E. I had. I had to put a
paper clip for the E.
Speaker 6 (29:35):
The button wore out and got sticky, so I had
to reinvented as those convicts are clever.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I had a tape, a paper clip.
Speaker 6 (29:42):
I still have that typewriter, my TV, my cooler, my
hot pie, and all of these things there on my souvenir.
And when I built my house, I will put them
in my basement and scare the stuffings out of my
bad butt. Grandkids, if they choose to go, try to
go south on me. I was gonna make a a
monument of what Eastern was like a dorm. I know
(30:05):
the blocks. I counted the blocks, I got them roped down.
I counted on how high they win. I knew where
the event is. I used toilet paper as my measuring stick,
and I know the whole thing. I've got it on
paper what Eastern looks like. So I'm going to build
that in my basement with a bean shooter recaller. That's
where they feed you through the hole at they open
(30:25):
up a flap that's about four inches maybe three and
a half four inches tall and probably about maybe sixteen
inches long fifteen sixteen inches long, and they feed you
through there, and that's where they put their handcuffs on
you to take you to transport you otherwise. So I'm
going to put this on my basement for other kids
(30:46):
as a monumental there.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Hey, listen, don't be me.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
So let's talk about the what I would call my
favorite part of the story, right, which is how this
thing got fixed. I mean, it can never really be
fixed because no one can give you back those eleven
years of your life. But you have certainly made the
most out of it. How did you ultimately find your freedom?
Because I love and we're now we're finally going to
(31:13):
let people in on the bay Watch part of the
story because.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
It's great, right. I watched William Gregor.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
He was the first guy in the nation to get
exonerated by mitochondri in DNA, first guy in the nation.
He's the seven to fourth person in the United States
to be exonerated. I watched him walk out of North
Point on about July the fifth of July the ninth,
somewhere up in there of two thousand at that time,
(31:42):
Innocent Project in Kentucky, the Kentucky Anctant Project was very new,
if it was even established all the way.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
So when they did find it, when.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
After a few months after he left, I wrote Kentucky
Instant Projects down in Eddyville at the time. They accepted
my case in November of two thousand and six, in
between the season in which they wasn't supposed to take it.
So now then I found out later that the reason
they took it were officials said that they had officials
(32:14):
I don't know who these officials were, said they had
an insant man indepenitentiary and that they needed to get
him out. So the encientt project came to me and
there's Gordon roynaldsi On, Melanie Lowe and Melanie low and
Linda Smith and Alex Matthews, UK student. They all sat
(32:35):
down on my case and started doing the footwork. And
that was the beginning of my freedom.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
When you say UK still you mean in the University
of Kentucky, not the United Kingdom. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
And so they started working on it, and what did
they find.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
They it took him six years to be out, and
I got frustrated. During the six years, me and Melanie
low were kind of totally toe on some phone calls,
and lucky enough, I had Danny Butler co case. Detective
Danny Butler came aboard and he asked Melanie load him,
could he help exonerate me, help free me? And they
(33:11):
as a team got together in the last two years,
we produced the.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
DNA that was not mine.
Speaker 6 (33:19):
The centerpiece of this case, Jason, was an alleged homemade silencer.
So whoever made a silencer prepared for premeditation, prepare to
get away with a crime, and a vicious crime at
that So tom on Kin was shot with a shotgun.
So this silencer was a centerpiece at the at the
(33:42):
at the crime scene, actual transportation and uh, they tested
the duct This chuncer was comprised of duct tape. While
I met carpet rolled up in duct tape and it
was left at the scene. So they got to the
DNA out of this duct tape and it was not
my DNA.
Speaker 5 (34:02):
And then they found out that the jail house snitch,
Greg Gillimo, was They found out that he was lying
and that one of the key aspects of his very
damning testimony against you was that he said I can
remember it clear as a bell that he confessed to
me because I remember at the time he did it,
we were watching Baywatch on TV. And then your guys,
(34:22):
who obviously were on their A game, they found out
they did some research and found out that Baywatch wasn't
even on TV that day.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Baywatch is a PG time.
Speaker 6 (34:31):
It had what's the name Pamela Anderson, Yes, Pamela Anderson
and what's called guy?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
And that's all the only time you seen a gun
on Baywatch was if they had a lifeguard race and
the black guy that was a coast guard or beach
police shot the little you know, gold Time started seeing
it a little bit.
Speaker 6 (34:55):
I watched the bay Watch. That's the some time I
remember about it. Now what Linda, Melanie Low Liam got
that from me. I did my homework and oh yes,
I did most of the footwork I did. But thank
you Melanie low then the Smith and all the rest
of y'all. But I did my homework and I even
wrote that guy named They had an article in the
find right Dave. Dave was somebody you write and asked
(35:18):
him questions about anything you wanted to know about any show.
So I wrote Dave several times and he finally got
back with him and he said, I use that as
proof to show Melanie and them listen, Baywatch don't have
no shotgun. Greg Gully's theme was that that we was
watching Baywatch in CCC A forty men Dom and I
(35:42):
told him while watching Baywatch that this guy that was
on the Baywatch show was supposed to have been a deaf person,
a blind person, and he shot a She was working
on a clay figure, and she had heard of Robbie.
Because she's blind, she didn't see it. She heard it.
This burglar, this guy knew that she was gonna be
(36:03):
a witness, and she, according to Greg Gully, blew the
dumb the clay figure's head off with a shotgun and
told her whispered in her that would be that's gonna
be your head if you try to testify against me.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
This far fast signed.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
This is what Greg Gully said, And he testified this
very adamantly at trial, and it was so kind of
far faster. I laughed, and my lawyer had an elbow me.
But it was so sickening and so pathetic that that,
you know, anybody could should have seen through that, but
it wasn't. So that you have to rind back the
trial take and see it. I know, almost exact minutes
(36:40):
and everything. So Greg Gully says this touff and I
wrote all kinds of people and proved that there was
no such Baywatch episode about any clay figure and somebody
(37:02):
shooting with a shotgun.
Speaker 5 (37:04):
So anyway, so that that they watch actually in between
saving people from drowning, they may have actually actually had
to roll and saving your.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Life too, So that's nice.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yes, I was.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
You were drowning in the drowning in the system, not
in the ways, but anyway, so that's a that's a
good So you get a lot of credit for that
investigative work right there.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Which is great. Yes, I did a whole lot. I mean,
that's amazing.
Speaker 5 (37:26):
So back to this, So ultimately the government's case starts
completely deteriorating, falling apart, crumbling, whatever you want to call it.
And you are starting to see a little light at
the end.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Of the tunnel.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Oh my gosh, yes, you.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Have to stop smiling from what I can tell. But anyway,
you've been here and and then so so how did
it finally.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
End up with you gaining your freedom?
Speaker 6 (37:52):
We also to back up the d n A mainly
load them wively, strategically said uh, let's do another lot.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
I did.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Oh, by the way, I did a light detactor.
Speaker 6 (38:04):
On December January seventh of nineteen ninety seven, and that
light attector guy for the over police said I passed,
he said, I passed with flying colors.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
So they did. They made my my what should have
been my co defender, Joe Tucker, they made him take
a light attack to test two of them. He passed
both of them. Two. So he said, Joe Tucker said
that he was scared to go out of that office
because when he said, the guy told me passed the
fine claud I got locked up. And so Joe Tucker
was scared to go past that offense because of that.
(38:37):
So getting back with the light of tech test, we
did a lot of attach to test and I passed
that with fine close. So that's the second light of
tech of tests I took. So that that.
Speaker 6 (38:46):
Couple with the DNA couple with Greg gully Ban and
Jenerhal Snintz, and the deals were made with Marcus Spindograss
and Greg got Isuell and the Kenneth Brown recam. That man,
I never told y'all that I really knew there was carry.
I was never one hundred percent sure. So all of
(39:07):
these factors ended up aiding and to where the commonwealth
couldn't couldn't bow down. And then the main thing that
came along Jason was Fransvois Cuttingham, Franscrois cutting Ham and
uh interested enough doing a murder out in Jaytown in
Frank Creek, and he this was his second murder. His
(39:30):
first murder was a Mexican and was used homemade sounds
that was used in that case. So me and Frans
guid Will happened to be down North Point together, but
I didn't mess want to mess with Francois. Francois wanted
to talk to me several times, and I didn't want
any dealing with him because I knew that he was
part of Juan Sanders and his clique. They called themselves
(39:53):
murder Inc. And at one time they called himself Moms
Masters of Murders, so either one of the the title
spelled real bad.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Now.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
They were younger than me, so I didn't know that
they was doing all this. So anyway, Frank Wi he
called his first medic case in ninety seven, and the
lawsuit presues that Franccoi told the loruis of the police
long before my trial who had did this, why they
did it, and that they was gonna frame me Fransquiard
cutting down. So this was a find that made that
(40:26):
made the Commonwealth Dave Stingle bowed down and had to
let me go, so we had Frank wid had ended
up on his second murder case. He got out in
two thousand and four and called him murder case in
two thousand and five in which he killed two people
a girl and a guy, a couple, and they were
(40:46):
out in Fern Creek Park, frien Creek School's park, and
he shot and burnt them up. So he made a deal.
He took it to trial and had a mistrial, and
on his second time going to trial, he made a deal.
Part of the deal was that he telled on several
murders that he knew about.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
At the end of the.
Speaker 6 (41:05):
Murders, he said, oh, by the way, Kerry Porter is
also innocent, and he had nothing to do with the
nineteen ninety six murder of Tyrone Kap. At the end
of the interview, oh, also, Kerry Porter is also innocent too.
And here's why Jayan Sanders tried to pay me fifty
thousand dollars to kill him, and I didn't want to
take that hit.
Speaker 5 (41:25):
Right, So he came right out and said that Sanators
had offered him fifty thousand, thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
To do the murder.
Speaker 5 (41:32):
He turned it down, which is kind of strange taking
back on it, but whatever, we have to get into
that now. But ultimately that's pretty powerful then. But okay,
so now let's fast forward to you get out right,
and how I mean I've seen, like I said, I've
seen you on TV. This is you know, this smile
that you can't seem to get rid of. And I
don't even know if you want to thank you. I
(41:53):
know you're walking around New York checking everything out. So
but so you get out, and no, sooner do you
get out, then you're calling for justice on the case,
and you're immediately starting to advocate for other people in
your situation. And that's really because there really hasn't been justice.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
In your case. There's no justice, No arrests have been made.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
No, I don't care nothing about the lawsuit.
Speaker 6 (42:21):
I don't care nothing about no blanking money, because money
is what this case was all about all the way.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Around the board. Tyrone Camp lost.
Speaker 6 (42:30):
His life because he was no more than a money
factor to my little boy's mama. Sadly, so, money has
always been evil to me. I give money away like
it's forty one. I don't I'm not materialistic. I'm not
caught up in the money world. So when I this case,
no justice because me and Jerome Camp, Jerome Camp has
(42:54):
been on my side, fighting, fighting the Louisville police since
before on before trial. He's been trying to tell these people,
y'all have the wrong person carry us, not the killer.
It is Cecilia and our boyfriend.
Speaker 5 (43:10):
And that's the victim's family calling for justice for their
own kin. And to their great credit, Uh, they've stood
strong by your side.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
With wrong Camp. And we still friends today.
Speaker 6 (43:21):
We go to his church on several occasions, spoke in
front of his congregation, We prayed in front of his congregation.
We we haven't had a counter like vision. Let we're
about to do that in some war time.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
We've been working h waiting.
Speaker 5 (43:37):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (43:38):
The person that has this case, Uh, the leader detective
that has this case doesn't seem to want to go
after the obvious suspects.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (43:48):
And I've seen your lawyer speak about this about how
you know he's calling for uh, the chief of police and.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Louis Le to Steve Conrad right to uh to basically.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
The whole department right and turn it over to an
independent agency to do what they got to do to
get to the bottom of this case, which it seems
to me I don't really. I mean, there's a lot
of things I don't understand, but I understand why that
would cause anybody any you know, like you would think
that everybody you know, because that's a crazy thing too, right,
Like even the people who are involved in this cover
(44:22):
up or whatever you want to call it, or involved
in yeah, involved in obstructing the justice from from getting
to its right, preventing the right outcome from happening. The
crazy thing about it, on top of all the other
crazy things, is that.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
They live in that community too.
Speaker 5 (44:41):
And who's to say that they wouldn't end up being
somebody they love, might not end up getting hurt by
these people. These are dangerous people, right who killed I mean, anyway,
we won't even get into that now because we're not
going to do that's a psychology show. We have to
do a different psychology show to try to understand why
people would would behave the way that they do. But
(45:01):
we can't control that, not from this studio anyway. And
all we can do is do the best we can
to try to get the word out there about these situations,
about your story about how these things happen, why they happen,
and how to prevent them from happening in the future.
And I would say that you being here and telling
this story is a real eye opener for people who
(45:23):
are interested in getting into this work and people who
are just you know, just human beings who care about
that fellow human beings who want to make sure that
this doesn't happen to them or their family. Because I
think you would agree. I say to people, if you
think it can't happen to you, it can, right.
Speaker 6 (45:41):
Yes, that's my model. Listen, y'all, if it happened to me.
I made a vow that that because it did happen
to me, they won't get anybody that I love. They
definitely won't get None of my kids are grand kids,
and as a result of this case, I haven't talked
to my son Carrie since trial. January August of twenty seven,
(46:05):
Little Kerry said hi, Daddy, and that's the last time
I heard little Kerry talk to me. He has thirty
He was twelve at that time. He is now thirty
three years of age, and he has two kids. I've
seen my grand baby Mason one time, identical twin to me.
Everybody tells me she's identical twin to me, a little
bit lighter than me, but she is me all the
(46:29):
way around the board. So I don't know how Cecilia
looks at little Carrie and then has to look at
a grand baby that she loves and keeps on up
because she's gonna, hopefully soon have to depart from him.
Speaker 5 (46:41):
So Carrie, I could talk to you all day, but
we don't have all day. Yeah, we only have a
couple of minutes left. But we have a tradition here
on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of the show,
and I think probably a lot of people's favorite part
of the show, which is that at the end of
the show I stopped talking, just turn the microphone over
(47:02):
you and say what else would you like to share?
If you had another couple of minutes to just say
anything you want, and you've covered a lot, But what
else can you share.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
With our audience?
Speaker 5 (47:11):
Well?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
The main thing every day, y'all.
Speaker 6 (47:15):
Every day, Almost every time I eat a meal, it
reminds you of penitentiary, no matter if I'm from a
bag of potato chips to the simplest thing a twister
a noun rat. Anything you consume reminds your penitentiary. That's
one factor. Second factor is I like to thank Jerome
com first and foremost for having a carriage to say
(47:38):
that I don't think this man is the man to
kill my brother, for him to stick beside me. I
like to thank Danny Butler for going against his fellow
employees and being called all kinds of bad names or
distal over that type of thing. Whatever they call Danny Butler.
(47:58):
I've heard some of them myself, so I've known that
he went through hell. Detective Cocaine, Detective Danny Butler, A
shop goes out to you, memly Low, Gordon Ron and
all of those that help exonerate me, my family that
supported me through trying to send letters of hope, money
(48:19):
and stamps. Took a lot of stamps and a lot
of copying to get me here, y'all, a whole lot.
I made the sacrifices a blown in and cracker. I
ate the cheapest thing, the canteen head. I would treat
myself every blue moon as a result of this. No
holiday makes a difference to me. I don't care about
my birthday, Christmas. It's savvy enough. I don't really give
(48:40):
presents out it ruins you. Yes, I smile all the time.
I'm happy one moment and crying the next every day,
all day. So if we as a whole society, we
need to make sure that this doesn't happen to another
carry Porter, because you're going to lose another Kerry Ramone junior,
(49:03):
and that's a big divide in the family. And you
just fine, this cycle is going to continue, So audience,
if I can do anything, man, please don't let this
happen to nobody else. I'm getting cheary now, So I'm
the end there because I'm in New York and I
want to smile.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Well, we're happy to have you here in New York.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
I'm gon get a little choked up too, and I
really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your experience, knowledge, strength,
and your vision for the future. So once again, thank
you everyone for listening to this very special episode of
Wrongful Conviction with Kerry Porter.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Carrie. Thank you, Thank you Kerry Porter. The legend over
and that makes me smile.
Speaker 5 (50:02):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
get your podcasts, it really helps and I'm a proud
donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org
to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
(50:25):
The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
At Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Speaker 5 (50:36):
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
Everything like everything.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
with this. How is this possible?
Speaker 4 (00:28):
I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing
that every human being should do the right thing. And
that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
corrough people, I wasn't going to breb anyone to get
me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the
fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.
I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it's come
a little ways, but it's still broken.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is a wrongful conviction. Welcome back.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
To Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm That's me, and today
we have an amazing guy. Carrie Porter is our guests
on the show. Carrie, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Thank you, Jason, thank you very much for having me here.
Speaker 5 (01:30):
Now, I got to tell you carry even though I've
been doing this kind of work for about twenty five years,
when I was I had to read your story several
times because he's got more twists and turns than a
John Grishall novel.
Speaker 6 (01:41):
That's funny you say that because my child, judge Thomas
Wan is now Conwell attorney, and he said he mentioned
that my lawyer's motion were like a John Grissom's movie.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
Okay, well, so, John, if you're listening very much in
the right, but your case has love trying, It has
mistaken witness identification, it has perjury, it has false accusations,
it has corruption at the highest levels, it has cover ups,
it has I mean, it's got so many factors that
(02:12):
you know and and you know, and then murders happening
left and right around that would have pointed arrows in
different directions. And you know, I mean insurance claims and
questions and like I mean it's really we're going to
try to unravel this for the audience.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Today, so everyone's gonna have to really follow along because
this is crazy.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Good luck if we do that. The only I still have, The.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Only thing I can promise is that there's a happy ending,
you know, because there is.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yes, there is first night.
Speaker 7 (02:44):
A loibl man free from prison after fourteen years for
a crime he didn't commit. Terrry Porter has a new
look at life thanks to these seven works.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Mister Porter did not commit this offense.
Speaker 7 (02:56):
The Commonwealth's Attorney says Porter was wrongfully convicted for the
nineteen ninety six murder of Tyrone Camp. New information came
to light last year as part of a separate murder investigation.
A key witness, Francois Cunningham, said Porter was set up
for Camp's murder.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
And I've seen you.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
It's amazing, and we're going to get right into the story.
But I've seen you speak on video, I saw you
do a press conference, and you know, you really have
a remarkable spirit, and you know, I know you've done
a lot of work trying to help prevent these things
from happening to other people, and you know, you have
all my respect for everything that you're doing.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Thank you as you man.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
Okay, well, so let's get right into it. So you're
from Louisville, Kentucky, grew up on the same street as
Muhammad Aldi.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yes, soy fourth and Grand.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
And you actually got to meet the legend that one.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
Oh yes, yes, Cagon actually, yes, the greatest, the greatest.
The first time was in the seventies when this job
was broke.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Wow, amazing, what a story.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
And so in the mid nineties, Well, what was Louisville
like at that time? Was it a particularly violent time
in Louisville.
Speaker 6 (04:05):
Yes, I have the in ninety six that was the
first risese of the murder rate. I have the sixty
eight people got killed, and I have the last body
to Tyrone count whilst his life December to twenty seventh
or nineteen ninety six, and ironically they charged me with
the last body. But in May to June, the mayor
(04:29):
had to get on TV and assure the public that
these murder investigations would be immediately handled, expedingly and professionally
and everything else, and that assurance went out the door.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
Well yeah, so what he was basically saying is we'll
get these solved, right, or wrong. Right, we're just gonna
get We're gonna make everybody feel comfortable, even though you
should feel very uncomfortable because a real killer might well
be out there.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Well, politics has tales no better tal.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
There you go, so solet's go. Let's go to this
crazy case.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Right.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
So the murder victim was a guy named Tyrone Camp, correct,
a thirty five year old man, And can you explain
the whole circumstance and how the connections led to you?
And there was a witness that wasn't sure then he was.
I mean, the whole thing is like, but you take
us back because you actually, unfortunately you lived through this,
right And like I always say to my guest, I'm
(05:22):
happier here, but I'm sorry you're here. Yeah anyway, But okay,
so let's go back to this murder in nineteen ninety
six of Tyrone Camp.
Speaker 6 (05:30):
Tyrone Camp unfortunately ran across my little boy's mama, Cecilia Sanders.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Well Sanders now, but then it was Cecilia Kirkpatrick.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
We had been in a relationship for a rocky relationship
for nine years in which we had little carry at
the time that our leftlow carry because of Drew my
drug use.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Little Carry was five years old.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
So Tyrone Camp came along and he was a far
better man than I and I science over parental's rights,
and I think ninety three, I thought, because I did
time for child support, well, Tyrone was raising my son,
doing a real good job of it. What Kerry was
accustomed accustomed to was fishing and hunting, and Tyrone didn't
(06:18):
know how to do any of that. So he found
out how to do it and stuff and had little
Kerry up on his wings as if he was me,
despite him never doing that before in his life.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
So little Kerry got the love in him.
Speaker 6 (06:31):
And on December to twenty seven, his little Kerry's mama's
involved in what appears that she is one of the
person did more than likely she's the person adventures in
the death of Tyrone Camp.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And what was the motivation here? And who I mean?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Obviously it's still speculation because there hadn't been any real
not any real serious reinvestigation ever since you got out,
which is now several years ago, but which is a
very I mean, I saw your lawyer speaking very eloquently
and very powerfully on this topic. Yeah, and it's it's
a it's a heavy topic. But because like I said,
it involves cover ups and corruption at the highest levels.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
My goodness.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
So what was the motivation and how did this because
it sounds like from everything you're saying this tyrone Camp
was a pretty good guy, but very good. There was
there was some insurance money involved, is that right?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Correct? Insurance money?
Speaker 6 (07:25):
It's been rumored different things my investigation in the fifteen
years it took to get me out. Was it Cecilia
and her boyfriend Juan, the oldest Sanderu as the streets say,
scored up to anywhere from a half a million to
over a million dollars in insurance proceeds I do know,
(07:46):
and and did open records requests and manipulated the system
one we another and got a hold of records in
which I seen it. Four different agency paid your money.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
So there was a witness to this crime, right, yes,
uh huh, because it happened in like a.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Active transportation company, right in a lot, right?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And so was it at night six six thirty five.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
In the mornings when he was pronounced dead, am am.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So there would have been some daylight to work.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
With, not at six thirty five December.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
The service is the shortest daylight time of the year,
so Urn the twenty first is the longest.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
So that's an interesting one too, because of the fact
that this witness would not have.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Been reliable regardless right in the dark.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
But okay, and so the witness, Kenneth Brown Brown, he
changed his story a few times, is that right?
Speaker 6 (08:44):
As Thomas Wyane said, And Thomas Wyne shouldn't let him
proceed to trial. He with old and he waffled, but
he foually. Family is a key word described Kerry Porter.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
So on top of the arrows, that would seem I
mean again, if we're writing a movie script, you know,
you'd say, well, this looks a little too obvious because
you got the insurance money, right, you got this other
guy Sanders right, was involved with your ex yes, right,
(09:15):
So there's a pretty powerful narrative going on there how
they might have wanted him gone, although it's hard to
believe a mother's love, you know, and being that you
described him so eloquently as such a good father to
your son.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
One would think that that.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
Maybe that would triumph over the greed. But greed is
a powerful thing, very powerful, and that's a lot of money, yes, so,
but even still the rest your arrest didn't happen right away,
probably because they didn't have a good reason to suspect you.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
No, not, not not in the beginning at all.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
No, right because there was you didn't stand to benefit
from this in any way.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
No, and you weren't elos of them.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
From everything you're saying, You're actually happy that he was
filling the role that you at that time as a
young man. And I'm not here to judge. I mean,
I was how old were you at the time you
had your son?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
At the time I heard Loil Kerry was twenty three.
I was a late fablem so late in Kentucky.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
New York called that early.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
But anyway, twenty three, I think a lot of people,
and a lot of people are listening probably can relate
to this. I think a lot of people at twenty
three are still trying to find themselves, much less take
care for another little being. I'm not saying that. I'm
not saying your behavior was great or rationalize it. But
at the same time, I'm not here to judge. So
the question becomes, they wouldn't have arrested you because it
(10:37):
didn't look like there was any real reason to There
was Additionally, nobody identifying you. And also there was no
again that the I mean crime investigation one oh one.
Anyone who watches TV would go, wait a minute, why
didn't they look at the people who had the motivation?
And that would have made more sense, especially because something
(10:58):
happened seven months later that have really put anybody onto
that trail. Very good, correct, yes, But by then they
had arrested you. And let's get to it because that
seven months is a very interesting twist in this.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
It's a key factor. It's a key factor, should have
been a key factor.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
But it wasn't right, so it wasn't so they arrested you.
I mean, why do you think they did that?
Speaker 6 (11:19):
And when they arrested me February to twenty, and their
alleged motive was that I was jealous that Tyrone Camp
had stole my girls as stated in the opening statement,
and that raising my kid. That was a motive for
trial that came about through Detective Kids Rodney Kidd's investigation.
That's supposed to have been that I had prior in
(11:42):
nineteen ninety one, I had trashed so Siia's apartment in
which me and me carry and Cecilia was supposed to
have been sharing an apartment, but Tyrone was coming over on
the weekends. So sal has been involved in several loved true,
she transferred from one guy that's just doing good to
(12:04):
a better guy that's doing greater, and that's her.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
That was her come up.
Speaker 6 (12:09):
So that the commonwealth thought that I was the person
because of this ninety one trashing the apartment, that that's
created the background for the motive. The only difference, Jason,
is that that background was a five over five years old,
that it had nothing else happened in five years, and
that did Tyrone Tyrone had. When I trashed apartment, I
(12:33):
did it in front of Tyrone, and it was said
that I put pulled a gun on Tyrone at that apartment,
but there was nobody there to tell their story. But
Tyrone and Tyrone count is the one that save me
on the ninety one indictment of trashing the Derbrook apartment.
He told them that no, Kerry did not put a
gun in my head. Kerry did not hold me hostage,
(12:56):
and Carrie had nothing against me.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It was all against.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
Seals you anyway and charge you with the crime. Now again,
I'm thinking with sixty eight murders in the city the size.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Of Loale, and I have the last body on a
political year.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Right, so they need they need to put a ball
on this one, right.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
Hey, why not snatch anybody they had with all of
this background that they had on me, that that to
me gave them probable calls to come after me. Just
got out of penitentiary, has a background for violence itself,
especially with the.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Lags ninety one incident.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
And I think that they used that ninety one in
my background to say, hey, look, carry's own drugs. He
just got out of penitentiary. If he put the case
on him, he'll just go down like any other drug
and dummy and won't work on this case. It backfired
on him, but it got became an easy target in
my opinion.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
But it got a little trickier because seven months later,
like you were talking about good.
Speaker 6 (13:58):
Uh huh, you want to tell that's yes, I do
on June to thirteenth that here happens to be a
Friday thirteenth. So nineteen ninety seven, Cecilia Sanders, well send
your camp was involved as a getaway driver in a
Hemlock murder in which Juan Sanders wan Leo Sanders shot
(14:21):
and killed Antoine Chapman. He also shot shot Antoine's mother,
Anita Watts. He also shot his own uncle John. They
called John Dirty Sanders, and he walked away with a
twelve year sentence for all these shootings. But this is
six months later after the murder of Tyrone Camp.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
That should have raised arag fact to the Louisville Police.
Then it was ALPD. It should have raised a red flag.
But the difference, Jason is that at the time Louisville
hadn't merged as Metro. It was Louisville Jeffson County Police
versus Louisville Loisill Downtown Police. So the county police knew
(15:04):
of my innocence and fought for my innocent and the
Louisville Police fault to frame me. Wow, that's that's deep.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
That's a new one.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
We've heard a lot of stories on this show, listeners.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
I've heard, you know, I have people telling me, man
this one that everyone has a different one that they
they point to as the craziest one. But I've never
heard that particular. That's so odd because you have separate entities.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
But up under the same head.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
It's starting to heard from this, so you have.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
You're the only one who does this if so many
twists in turn, people say, how do you deal with this?
Speaker 5 (15:39):
And and by the way, when I was mentioning all
the twists and turns earlier and all the I mean,
all the factors in your crazy story of being framed
and convicted wrongfully and everything else, that I forgot to
mention the jail house snitch, which is a very important.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Part of the story too, great gully.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
Right, So, and there's a very very interesting as to
that too, which I think when everyone hears this, there's
gonna be a few people signed up for law school
going I want to be the guy that discovers that
kind of stuff, because it's great and that and that,
you know, let's let's get into this aspect of the case,
because so here it is. Seven months later, an inconvenient
(16:19):
truth emerges, which is that the two logical suspects, Cecilia
and Uh and Juan Sanders end up being caught red
handed shooting three people. And now you go, okay, so
let me just see here like this, we could be
in like eighth grade. We sit here and go, wait
(16:40):
a minute, okay, but hold on, there's there's now there's
the insurance money, there's the there's the propensity to violence,
that same kind of thing. Shootings like it's really this one,
as I say, this one comes with instructions, right, but instead,
but that being said, that didn't throw anybody off the case.
They were still ell bent on getting you. And in
(17:03):
order to do that, they found a convenient uh willing,
very willing, who was happy to make a deal. And
and this is something that I mentioned at times to time,
but the idea to me that everyone knows to watches
TV or has any type of education whatsoever in this country,
(17:24):
everyone knows you cannot bribe a witness, right, So you
can't go to uh, you know whatever, I see somebody
shoplifting or whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It is and they bring me in.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
So that guy can't come to me and say, well,
I give you one hundred dollars, but just tell them
with somebody else, right, that ain't happening. Everybody knows that's
a gets the law. But the government can go to
a jailhouse snitch and say, listen, I'm going to give
you the best bribe there is. I'm going to reduce
your sentence or let you give you a get out
of jail free card or whatever it is. All you
(17:55):
got to do is tell us the story on the
stand that Harry told you. It happens all the time.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Carry told you.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
That he did this murder, and you're gonna go, we're
gonna be real nice to you, right, And that's exactly
what happened. And by the way, I don't even want
to judge that guy because I don't know what his
particular situation is.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I'm not going to excuse it.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Either, But exactly, I don't know how anybody in that situation.
I mean, I hope I know how people would react,
because it's the wrong thing to do. But it's a
difficult you know, it would require a lot of soul searching.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
If someone saying, listen, you go.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Hold your family right right now, you're looking at you're
looking at ten to twenty for whatever it is our
robbery that we're gonna right and anyway, So but this
guy was happy to take the deal. And interestingly, we
know that jailhouse snitches are often used multiple times. They
get placed in cells either with or right next to
(18:51):
people that the authorities.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Want, and then they sing like a bird. So that's
exactly what this guy did.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
But tell us about that, and let's get to the trial, right,
Because how long did it take you to get to trial?
Speaker 6 (19:01):
They tried me for that murder in eighteen months. The
trial day was August twenty fifth to begin. I was
twenty fifth of nineteen ninety eight. I was in ninety
February to twenty of nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
You do the math.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Eighteen months in about five days, so you go to trial.
Uh did you know that this guy was going to
testify against you?
Speaker 6 (19:20):
Yes, I was given his statement and knew before I knew.
When I knew he was a jail house plan. It
was all over that he was a jail house plan.
And Greg Gully still performed, still perform. Craig was jail Houston.
Greg Gully gave an interview on February the twelve. They
(19:42):
put my case to Geller. Kenneth Brown did identification on
February to tenth. Greg Galliy did his on February to twelve,
and Marcus Pinograd is a friend of mine to head
a case pending. He gave his on April twenty second
of ninety seven. Those other days in the critical days
in which the Commonwealth put his witnesses together against me.
(20:04):
But great Gully was by far, as the drawer later said.
After my post conviction relief and doing Melan Go interviewed
these people, and these drawers said that we weren't convinced
with nobody but Greg Gully. Greg Gully sold us hand, foot,
tooth and nail.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
So they picked a guy who was a good actor
to a good liar and a good actor. But he
made one critical mistake, right, he made the Baywatch mistake.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yes he did.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Okay, So the jury goes out. How long did the
trial last?
Speaker 6 (20:45):
The trial lasts six days, so dead to Aux aug
thirty first, and I told my lawyer that it would
be a two week trial, and she didn't put on
she tried, and she didn't call most of the people that I.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Wanted to call.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
What did you think?
Speaker 5 (21:03):
And it is interesting too because we've had people on
the show whose trials took up to three weeks, I think,
And then we had Malcolm Alexander whose trial took less
than one day. Start to finish youry selection, everything else
I have sent to life in prison. So your trial
six days. You've now heard these people get up and lie.
(21:23):
Now before we get to the jury verdict. There was
one thing that I read when I was reading up
about your case that was confusing to me, which was
that your alibi was disputed by the one person who
could confirm it right, right, So how did that happen?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
What went wrong there?
Speaker 6 (21:43):
My niece, My niece said she didn't mean to my
lawyer didn't interview her. And and I'll know my sister
and so my niece when she told she cantun to stand,
she said that she thought that I can came in
at eleven something, that eleven something on December the twenty sixth,
(22:05):
before the twenty seven and the actual time that I
did come in was four point thirty at five o'clock.
I was using drugs at the time and I've been
getting high all night on orangemer. So when my sister said,
when my niece said at eleven, my sister said, the
real time was at at four thirty to.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Five five o'clock, five fifteen. What happened there?
Speaker 6 (22:27):
When you got a controversy like adver beteen two family members,
they think that that one, you know, one person's trying
to save them and the other one was telling them
the truth. So that left a bad impression with the jewelry.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
I see.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
So it's really it wasn't really that they contradicted you.
It was more of a misunderstanding between them, which ended
up looking like you were lying.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Correct and the Donald.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
What you're getting at is Donald Bruteley, Donald Brutley I
was supposed to have been. When I gave my saving
on January seventh, or ninety seven, I told the Louisville
Police that I uh. They said, do you know where
you was at this time?
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Right here?
Speaker 6 (23:05):
I said, yeah, probably probably over my girlfriend's house. Did
y'all argy fight? Probably so, because we was doing drugs.
So when I told him the time that I was
over a house, she had been in Jadak for two days.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I was two days off. But I told my lawyer.
They put it.
Speaker 6 (23:25):
They we had a hearing on it, and they produced
that I was a legedly lying. But Jason, when a
lot of people don't know when you're doing drugs, Cocaine's
the only thing I really know. Reefer didn't do that
to me. But when you're doing cocaine, when you have
a big piece of drug right here, well the days
only matter to real working people and real people when
(23:46):
you when you own drugs and stuff. The only thing
that matters is that one piece of drug realther the
last one day at tend days, that's only one day
because you only doing that moment. So so when when
when we doing drugs on my spree, we get the
times mixed up because it's only one day to us
(24:07):
as long as the drug glass, that's only one day
of doing drugs, even though it's five days.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
It is a bad drug and the pat tricks on
your mind. And that is one thing I don't recommend
to anybody, do I do.
Speaker 6 (24:20):
I struggle with that, and basically penitentiary broke it good.
Speaker 5 (24:25):
Here we are at the trial. Things don't sound like
they were looking very good. I mean, but what was
your feeling? I mean, you had now been seeing some
crazy stuff, some some real games that they were playing.
You've seen that they were willing to go to extraordinary right, Yes,
(24:45):
And when the jury went out, did you think that
you had a chance?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
No, Jason, Because that's let me take you back a
little bit. Jason.
Speaker 6 (24:57):
When I first seen this on TV, my mother taught
my sister told me about it, and so I went
to go and look at her.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Keep in mind, I'm coming on.
Speaker 6 (25:04):
For drugs or doing drugs at the time and December
twenty seven, so it's two days after Christmas. So Jason,
when I see it on TV, it was like my
little brothers, my friend Joe Talker, and all these people
that was in the room looking at the same time.
My sister said, somebody kills Seal's husband. You need to
look at it on TV.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Well I was.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
I was knowing I ain't do that, and so I'm
stopping to me other than the harble flying.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
So when I see it on.
Speaker 6 (25:32):
TV, it was like God was right behind me, and
God told me, and listen, I've been trying to get
you to do my work and and basically change your life.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
You've been running for all this time. This is you.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
So Jason, I knew that day God told me everything
that I was going to be incarcerated for. There was
no stopping it. So that you can tell all you
want about how other this case is gonna be. Nobody's
gonna believe you so so so, but God said in
the end I will prevail and that my name will
(26:09):
be glorified. So that's the way this case went. So
Jason went when everything that happened, nothing surprised me because
God had already told me.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
That's why.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
Now, even though I was doing drugs and stuff, I
was shocked into a religious experience that I never I mean,
I told everybody, listen, man, they're gonna they're gonna get
me on this case. All of my friends said, man,
will stop saying that you don't have nothing to do
with it. Why would you be saying that, man, y'all
not understand. Man, they're gonna frame me. Man, y'all not
(26:40):
understand listening to man Krisch telling us that I told
my buddy for reed.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I told during Woods.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
I told all some close people to me, and they
all thought I was crazy. So so Jason. When when
the verdict came back in forty minutes, I was not shocked.
I was beyond calm. Interesting enough, you should see the fine.
I was beyond calm, and I knew that I knew
that I had to go down and fight it from
(27:08):
behind the bars.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
But you also knew there was going to work out
in the end. So and it did.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
And that's and that's a really interesting part of the
story because how this thing eventually unraveled. And actually, you know,
as much as I don't think anyone can comprehend what
you went through eleven years behind bars.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It's actually sort of. I mean, the.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Average case takes longer of an innocent person to get
their conviction overturn, and we know that most innocent people
never convict get their convictions overturned because there's so many.
In fact, the latest estimate that just came out is
that six percent of all the people in prison in
the United States are innocent. So there you are in
prison for this crime you didn't commit, and since the
(27:51):
sixty years so basically life sentence.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
You would never be on a life sentence, right.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
You wann't you want to go to live sixty years
in there?
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Had you know?
Speaker 6 (28:02):
I knew day one that I was calm about every
time because it was the Book of Daniels. I'm gonna
come out smelling like a rose.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
And God assured me that.
Speaker 6 (28:13):
And I assure God that if you give me enough wisdom,
enough strength to fight this case, I would have everybody
that comes to me is willing to have themselves. I
went straight in, went straight to the law library, worked
a law library for the whole fifteen years. Like I say,
I'll call it fifteen from December to twenty February twenty two.
(28:33):
I got out of December nineteen and Jason. I worked
in a law library every.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Day all day.
Speaker 6 (28:40):
I did this case a minimum of twelve hours minimum.
If I I have, I had seventeen laundry bags of
legal work. I still have those laundry bags of legal
work in a storeage unit. My mother told me to
make a chair and I'm gonna do it and take
a picture of it. Seventeen bags. So she tells me
(29:01):
to make a chure of and sit in there and
pose and take a picture of it. The country. Everybody
needs to see that. But that's what it took to
get me out. I know each one of those pieces
of paper either I hand written them from the whole.
I typed them up on two typewriters. I wore out
the typewriter the E and the A was completely wore out.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I had the people say, man, I can't see the letter.
They can, they won't use them typewriter. I can't see
the letters on the alphabets or nothing. I say, yeah,
but here's E. I had. I had to put a
paper clip for the E.
Speaker 6 (29:35):
The button wore out and got sticky, so I had
to reinvented as those convicts are clever.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I had a tape, a paper clip.
Speaker 6 (29:42):
I still have that typewriter, my TV, my cooler, my
hot pie, and all of these things there on my souvenir.
And when I built my house, I will put them
in my basement and scare the stuffings out of my
bad butt. Grandkids, if they choose to go, try to
go south on me. I was gonna make a a
monument of what Eastern was like a dorm. I know
(30:05):
the blocks. I counted the blocks, I got them roped down.
I counted on how high they win. I knew where
the event is. I used toilet paper as my measuring stick,
and I know the whole thing. I've got it on
paper what Eastern looks like. So I'm going to build
that in my basement with a bean shooter recaller. That's
where they feed you through the hole at they open
(30:25):
up a flap that's about four inches maybe three and
a half four inches tall and probably about maybe sixteen
inches long fifteen sixteen inches long, and they feed you
through there, and that's where they put their handcuffs on
you to take you to transport you otherwise. So I'm
going to put this on my basement for other kids
(30:46):
as a monumental there.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Hey, listen, don't be me.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
So let's talk about the what I would call my
favorite part of the story, right, which is how this
thing got fixed. I mean, it can never really be
fixed because no one can give you back those eleven
years of your life. But you have certainly made the
most out of it. How did you ultimately find your freedom?
Because I love and we're now we're finally going to
(31:13):
let people in on the bay Watch part of the
story because.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
It's great, right. I watched William Gregor.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
He was the first guy in the nation to get
exonerated by mitochondri in DNA, first guy in the nation.
He's the seven to fourth person in the United States
to be exonerated. I watched him walk out of North
Point on about July the fifth of July the ninth,
somewhere up in there of two thousand at that time,
(31:42):
Innocent Project in Kentucky, the Kentucky Anctant Project was very new,
if it was even established all the way.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
So when they did find it, when.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
After a few months after he left, I wrote Kentucky
Instant Projects down in Eddyville at the time. They accepted
my case in November of two thousand and six, in
between the season in which they wasn't supposed to take it.
So now then I found out later that the reason
they took it were officials said that they had officials
(32:14):
I don't know who these officials were, said they had
an insant man indepenitentiary and that they needed to get
him out. So the encientt project came to me and
there's Gordon roynaldsi On, Melanie Lowe and Melanie low and
Linda Smith and Alex Matthews, UK student. They all sat
(32:35):
down on my case and started doing the footwork. And
that was the beginning of my freedom.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
When you say UK still you mean in the University
of Kentucky, not the United Kingdom. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
And so they started working on it, and what did
they find.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
They it took him six years to be out, and
I got frustrated. During the six years, me and Melanie
low were kind of totally toe on some phone calls,
and lucky enough, I had Danny Butler co case. Detective
Danny Butler came aboard and he asked Melanie load him,
could he help exonerate me, help free me? And they
(33:11):
as a team got together in the last two years,
we produced the.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
DNA that was not mine.
Speaker 6 (33:19):
The centerpiece of this case, Jason, was an alleged homemade silencer.
So whoever made a silencer prepared for premeditation, prepare to
get away with a crime, and a vicious crime at
that So tom on Kin was shot with a shotgun.
So this silencer was a centerpiece at the at the
(33:42):
at the crime scene, actual transportation and uh, they tested
the duct This chuncer was comprised of duct tape. While
I met carpet rolled up in duct tape and it
was left at the scene. So they got to the
DNA out of this duct tape and it was not
my DNA.
Speaker 5 (34:02):
And then they found out that the jail house snitch,
Greg Gillimo, was They found out that he was lying
and that one of the key aspects of his very
damning testimony against you was that he said I can
remember it clear as a bell that he confessed to
me because I remember at the time he did it,
we were watching Baywatch on TV. And then your guys,
(34:22):
who obviously were on their A game, they found out
they did some research and found out that Baywatch wasn't
even on TV that day.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Baywatch is a PG time.
Speaker 6 (34:31):
It had what's the name Pamela Anderson, Yes, Pamela Anderson
and what's called guy?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
And that's all the only time you seen a gun
on Baywatch was if they had a lifeguard race and
the black guy that was a coast guard or beach
police shot the little you know, gold Time started seeing
it a little bit.
Speaker 6 (34:55):
I watched the bay Watch. That's the some time I
remember about it. Now what Linda, Melanie Low Liam got
that from me. I did my homework and oh yes,
I did most of the footwork I did. But thank
you Melanie low then the Smith and all the rest
of y'all. But I did my homework and I even
wrote that guy named They had an article in the
find right Dave. Dave was somebody you write and asked
(35:18):
him questions about anything you wanted to know about any show.
So I wrote Dave several times and he finally got
back with him and he said, I use that as
proof to show Melanie and them listen, Baywatch don't have
no shotgun. Greg Gully's theme was that that we was
watching Baywatch in CCC A forty men Dom and I
(35:42):
told him while watching Baywatch that this guy that was
on the Baywatch show was supposed to have been a deaf person,
a blind person, and he shot a She was working
on a clay figure, and she had heard of Robbie.
Because she's blind, she didn't see it. She heard it.
This burglar, this guy knew that she was gonna be
(36:03):
a witness, and she, according to Greg Gully, blew the
dumb the clay figure's head off with a shotgun and
told her whispered in her that would be that's gonna
be your head if you try to testify against me.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
This far fast signed.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
This is what Greg Gully said, And he testified this
very adamantly at trial, and it was so kind of
far faster. I laughed, and my lawyer had an elbow me.
But it was so sickening and so pathetic that that,
you know, anybody could should have seen through that, but
it wasn't. So that you have to rind back the
trial take and see it. I know, almost exact minutes
(36:40):
and everything. So Greg Gully says this touff and I
wrote all kinds of people and proved that there was
no such Baywatch episode about any clay figure and somebody
(37:02):
shooting with a shotgun.
Speaker 5 (37:04):
So anyway, so that that they watch actually in between
saving people from drowning, they may have actually actually had
to roll and saving your.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Life too, So that's nice.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yes, I was.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
You were drowning in the drowning in the system, not
in the ways, but anyway, so that's a that's a
good So you get a lot of credit for that
investigative work right there.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Which is great. Yes, I did a whole lot. I mean,
that's amazing.
Speaker 5 (37:26):
So back to this, So ultimately the government's case starts
completely deteriorating, falling apart, crumbling, whatever you want to call it.
And you are starting to see a little light at
the end.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Of the tunnel.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Oh my gosh, yes, you.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Have to stop smiling from what I can tell. But anyway,
you've been here and and then so so how did
it finally.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
End up with you gaining your freedom?
Speaker 6 (37:52):
We also to back up the d n A mainly
load them wively, strategically said uh, let's do another lot.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
I did.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Oh, by the way, I did a light detactor.
Speaker 6 (38:04):
On December January seventh of nineteen ninety seven, and that
light attector guy for the over police said I passed,
he said, I passed with flying colors.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
So they did. They made my my what should have
been my co defender, Joe Tucker, they made him take
a light attack to test two of them. He passed
both of them. Two. So he said, Joe Tucker said
that he was scared to go out of that office
because when he said, the guy told me passed the
fine claud I got locked up. And so Joe Tucker
was scared to go past that offense because of that.
(38:37):
So getting back with the light of tech test, we
did a lot of attach to test and I passed
that with fine close. So that's the second light of
tech of tests I took. So that that.
Speaker 6 (38:46):
Couple with the DNA couple with Greg gully Ban and
Jenerhal Snintz, and the deals were made with Marcus Spindograss
and Greg got Isuell and the Kenneth Brown recam. That man,
I never told y'all that I really knew there was carry.
I was never one hundred percent sure. So all of
(39:07):
these factors ended up aiding and to where the commonwealth
couldn't couldn't bow down. And then the main thing that
came along Jason was Fransvois Cuttingham, Franscrois cutting Ham and
uh interested enough doing a murder out in Jaytown in
Frank Creek, and he this was his second murder. His
(39:30):
first murder was a Mexican and was used homemade sounds
that was used in that case. So me and Frans
guid Will happened to be down North Point together, but
I didn't mess want to mess with Francois. Francois wanted
to talk to me several times, and I didn't want
any dealing with him because I knew that he was
part of Juan Sanders and his clique. They called themselves
(39:53):
murder Inc. And at one time they called himself Moms
Masters of Murders, so either one of the the title
spelled real bad.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Now.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
They were younger than me, so I didn't know that
they was doing all this. So anyway, Frank Wi he
called his first medic case in ninety seven, and the
lawsuit presues that Franccoi told the loruis of the police
long before my trial who had did this, why they
did it, and that they was gonna frame me Fransquiard
cutting down. So this was a find that made that
(40:26):
made the Commonwealth Dave Stingle bowed down and had to
let me go, so we had Frank wid had ended
up on his second murder case. He got out in
two thousand and four and called him murder case in
two thousand and five in which he killed two people
a girl and a guy, a couple, and they were
(40:46):
out in Fern Creek Park, frien Creek School's park, and
he shot and burnt them up. So he made a deal.
He took it to trial and had a mistrial, and
on his second time going to trial, he made a deal.
Part of the deal was that he telled on several
murders that he knew about.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
At the end of the.
Speaker 6 (41:05):
Murders, he said, oh, by the way, Kerry Porter is
also innocent, and he had nothing to do with the
nineteen ninety six murder of Tyrone Kap. At the end
of the interview, oh, also, Kerry Porter is also innocent too.
And here's why Jayan Sanders tried to pay me fifty
thousand dollars to kill him, and I didn't want to
take that hit.
Speaker 5 (41:25):
Right, So he came right out and said that Sanators
had offered him fifty thousand, thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
To do the murder.
Speaker 5 (41:32):
He turned it down, which is kind of strange taking
back on it, but whatever, we have to get into
that now. But ultimately that's pretty powerful then. But okay,
so now let's fast forward to you get out right,
and how I mean I've seen, like I said, I've
seen you on TV. This is you know, this smile
that you can't seem to get rid of. And I
don't even know if you want to thank you. I
(41:53):
know you're walking around New York checking everything out. So
but so you get out, and no, sooner do you
get out, then you're calling for justice on the case,
and you're immediately starting to advocate for other people in
your situation. And that's really because there really hasn't been justice.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
In your case. There's no justice, No arrests have been made.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
No, I don't care nothing about the lawsuit.
Speaker 6 (42:21):
I don't care nothing about no blanking money, because money
is what this case was all about all the way.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Around the board. Tyrone Camp lost.
Speaker 6 (42:30):
His life because he was no more than a money
factor to my little boy's mama. Sadly, so, money has
always been evil to me. I give money away like
it's forty one. I don't I'm not materialistic. I'm not
caught up in the money world. So when I this case,
no justice because me and Jerome Camp, Jerome Camp has
(42:54):
been on my side, fighting, fighting the Louisville police since
before on before trial. He's been trying to tell these people,
y'all have the wrong person carry us, not the killer.
It is Cecilia and our boyfriend.
Speaker 5 (43:10):
And that's the victim's family calling for justice for their
own kin. And to their great credit, Uh, they've stood
strong by your side.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
With wrong Camp. And we still friends today.
Speaker 6 (43:21):
We go to his church on several occasions, spoke in
front of his congregation, We prayed in front of his congregation.
We we haven't had a counter like vision. Let we're
about to do that in some war time.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
We've been working h waiting.
Speaker 5 (43:37):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (43:38):
The person that has this case, Uh, the leader detective
that has this case doesn't seem to want to go
after the obvious suspects.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (43:48):
And I've seen your lawyer speak about this about how
you know he's calling for uh, the chief of police and.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Louis Le to Steve Conrad right to uh to basically.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
The whole department right and turn it over to an
independent agency to do what they got to do to
get to the bottom of this case, which it seems
to me I don't really. I mean, there's a lot
of things I don't understand, but I understand why that
would cause anybody any you know, like you would think
that everybody you know, because that's a crazy thing too, right,
Like even the people who are involved in this cover
(44:22):
up or whatever you want to call it, or involved
in yeah, involved in obstructing the justice from from getting
to its right, preventing the right outcome from happening. The
crazy thing about it, on top of all the other
crazy things, is that.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
They live in that community too.
Speaker 5 (44:41):
And who's to say that they wouldn't end up being
somebody they love, might not end up getting hurt by
these people. These are dangerous people, right who killed I mean, anyway,
we won't even get into that now because we're not
going to do that's a psychology show. We have to
do a different psychology show to try to understand why
people would would behave the way that they do. But
(45:01):
we can't control that, not from this studio anyway. And
all we can do is do the best we can
to try to get the word out there about these situations,
about your story about how these things happen, why they happen,
and how to prevent them from happening in the future.
And I would say that you being here and telling
this story is a real eye opener for people who
(45:23):
are interested in getting into this work and people who
are just you know, just human beings who care about
that fellow human beings who want to make sure that
this doesn't happen to them or their family. Because I
think you would agree. I say to people, if you
think it can't happen to you, it can, right.
Speaker 6 (45:41):
Yes, that's my model. Listen, y'all, if it happened to me.
I made a vow that that because it did happen
to me, they won't get anybody that I love. They
definitely won't get None of my kids are grand kids,
and as a result of this case, I haven't talked
to my son Carrie since trial. January August of twenty seven,
(46:05):
Little Kerry said hi, Daddy, and that's the last time
I heard little Kerry talk to me. He has thirty
He was twelve at that time. He is now thirty
three years of age, and he has two kids. I've
seen my grand baby Mason one time, identical twin to me.
Everybody tells me she's identical twin to me, a little
bit lighter than me, but she is me all the
(46:29):
way around the board. So I don't know how Cecilia
looks at little Carrie and then has to look at
a grand baby that she loves and keeps on up
because she's gonna, hopefully soon have to depart from him.
Speaker 5 (46:41):
So Carrie, I could talk to you all day, but
we don't have all day. Yeah, we only have a
couple of minutes left. But we have a tradition here
on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of the show,
and I think probably a lot of people's favorite part
of the show, which is that at the end of
the show I stopped talking, just turn the microphone over
(47:02):
you and say what else would you like to share?
If you had another couple of minutes to just say
anything you want, and you've covered a lot, But what
else can you share.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
With our audience?
Speaker 5 (47:11):
Well?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
The main thing every day, y'all.
Speaker 6 (47:15):
Every day, Almost every time I eat a meal, it
reminds you of penitentiary, no matter if I'm from a
bag of potato chips to the simplest thing a twister
a noun rat. Anything you consume reminds your penitentiary. That's
one factor. Second factor is I like to thank Jerome
com first and foremost for having a carriage to say
(47:38):
that I don't think this man is the man to
kill my brother, for him to stick beside me. I
like to thank Danny Butler for going against his fellow
employees and being called all kinds of bad names or
distal over that type of thing. Whatever they call Danny Butler.
(47:58):
I've heard some of them myself, so I've known that
he went through hell. Detective Cocaine, Detective Danny Butler, A
shop goes out to you, memly Low, Gordon Ron and
all of those that help exonerate me, my family that
supported me through trying to send letters of hope, money
(48:19):
and stamps. Took a lot of stamps and a lot
of copying to get me here, y'all, a whole lot.
I made the sacrifices a blown in and cracker. I
ate the cheapest thing, the canteen head. I would treat
myself every blue moon as a result of this. No
holiday makes a difference to me. I don't care about
my birthday, Christmas. It's savvy enough. I don't really give
(48:40):
presents out it ruins you. Yes, I smile all the time.
I'm happy one moment and crying the next every day,
all day. So if we as a whole society, we
need to make sure that this doesn't happen to another
carry Porter, because you're going to lose another Kerry Ramone junior,
(49:03):
and that's a big divide in the family. And you
just fine, this cycle is going to continue, So audience,
if I can do anything, man, please don't let this
happen to nobody else. I'm getting cheary now, So I'm
the end there because I'm in New York and I
want to smile.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Well, we're happy to have you here in New York.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
I'm gon get a little choked up too, and I
really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your experience, knowledge, strength,
and your vision for the future. So once again, thank
you everyone for listening to this very special episode of
Wrongful Conviction with Kerry Porter.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Carrie. Thank you, Thank you Kerry Porter. The legend over
and that makes me smile.
Speaker 5 (50:02):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
get your podcasts, it really helps and I'm a proud
donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org
to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
(50:25):
The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
At Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Speaker 5 (50:36):
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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