October 30, 2017 • 49 mins
In 1998, Kian Khatibi was 22 years old and living in Westchester County, NY when he was wrongfully convicted of stabbing two men during a bar fight and sentenced to 7 to 14 years in prison. After eventually discovering that his brother had committed the crime, Kian successfully fought for his release from prison in 2008 and was finally exonerated in 2012. Kian Khatibi graduated with honors from New York University in 2011 and passed the bar exam in New York after graduating from Cardozo School of Law in 2014. He established a law practice in New York City and is currently working to free other wrongfully convicted individuals.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I was naive enough to believe that I would be
able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,
that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't
be going to prison because I was a good person.
I hadn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
In the back of your mind, you say, well, when
we go to a hearing or we go to court,
the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one
knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected
from the lower courts all the way up to the
United States Supreme Court.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,
in that moment, unchecked authority.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Don't presume that people are guilty when you seem on TV,
because it may just be a dirty da that is
trying to rise upward.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
(01:18):
Jason Flamm. Today I have very special guests Keon Katibi,
who's going to tell you a story that will well,
it'll probably blow your mind because it blows mine. Ken,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 5 (01:30):
Thank you, good to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
So Keon, ironically, I guess you could say, is from Pleasantville,
New York, and you grew up in sort of a
nuclear family, sort of a normal childhood pretty much.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, there was five of us, all about a year
year and a half apart, and I'm the number two.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
And the crux of your story all revolves around a
tragic incident that happened in a bar in Pleasantville called
lock Stock and Barrel eight.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
That's where it all started.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Yes, that's where it all started. Two people were stabbed
in a fight in this bar, and at the time
that it happened, you were in the police station, which
is just sort of like, I mean, you can't have
much of a better alibi than that it was hidden.
But there's video that exists that proves that you were
in the police station at the time of the stabbing,
and yet they managed to convict you. Anyway, So let's
(02:22):
go back to that fateful day or that faithful night,
I should say, when you were in that bar, What
was going on? How did this fight happen? How did
you end up going to the police state. I mean,
it's all so nuts.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a good place to start. Well,
I was inside of the bar Lockstock and barrel in
the village of Pleusbonville, Westchester County, New York, and i'd
just gotten there. I think I was there maybe under
ten minutes.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
And there was a scuffle.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
There was a I guess a group of young folks
and everybody in there was in their twenties, most likely
college bar and there was a scuffle and I got
pushed on the back and kind of like bumped, and
I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar.
A little shorter than me is stocky guy, and he
grabbed me by the collar and starts lifting me up
and I put my hand to push him away.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
He's assaulting me, harassing me at the very least.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
And at that time, the bouncer was standing at the
door and he turned around he saw some kind of scuffle.
I'm not sure exactly what was going on. I was
just focusing on the guy who had his arm around
my collar and squeezing my shirt.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
That's reasonable, you know.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
And the bouncer grab my shoulder and says, hey, you
got to get out of here.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
So I left. You know, I obliged.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I'm not going to sit there and argue, hey, I
deserve to stay, you know, So I walk out, and
the bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but
you were the closest guy to me, and I just
had to get a grip on the situation.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
So I left.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I went to seven to eleven store to get some coffee,
and you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well,
all my friends are inside. I came with them. At
this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although
I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do
I get home? Do I go tell my friends? And
(04:20):
you know, we're nineteen ninety eight. Everybody doesn't have a
cell phone, er nothing like that. That's just not going on.
So you know, maybe a few people at that time,
if I recall correctly, had what they call pagers. Right, yeah,
So I'm thinking what do I do? So I start
walking back toward the bar and saying, maybe I can
see someone outside, make sure everyone my friends knew at
(04:43):
least I was kicked out and that I'm going home,
or maybe they're leaving too soon.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
I'll get a ride, right, right.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
So I start walking back to the bar and there's
a huge parking lot on one of the sides of
the lock stock and barrel, bar or pub, whatever you
call it. And then I see a group there. There's
altercation and there's yelling and screaming. But I walk a
little closer because I, you know, it didn't think it
involved me and didn't at that time.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
It's also the way back to the bar.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
That I have to go, so I get a little
closer and seems these guys are just like arguing and
screaming with each other some some dumb stuff. In my mind,
I'm like, oh, there's a couple of drunk folks out
here arguing, you know, has nothing to do with me.
And I go to walk past them and one of
the guys points at me and says, hey, there's the
guy from the bar. In my head, I'm just like,
(05:36):
oh my god. And I'm thinking, is that one of
the guys who had me by the collar or one
of his friends. I'm like, jeez, it wasn't enough that
I just got kicked out of the bar. Now they're like, hey,
that's him. Like so I kind of steer around the
group to get to the sidewalk because I don't want
anything to do with that. And the guy's still yelling
(05:56):
and it looks like he wanted to come after me
or to hit the tone of his voice.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
So, you know, and I'm a small guy.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
You know, at that time, I think I weighed like
one hundred and forty five pounds at you know, five nine,
so that's probably as light as you can get. You know.
I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs
and everything. And you know, these guys are some they
were both actually football players. Oh so it's very intimidating
for me.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Yeah, and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like,
this is not a great night so far. Yeah, exactly, exactly,
but it's about to get a lot worse.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
It's about to get a lot worse. In fact, that
was the beginning of the next ten years of downward spiral,
you know, until the light, so till the hard fought
light that is. So I managed to get past them
and past them. Right across the street is the train station.
Speaker 5 (06:46):
I walked past them.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I said, I'm out of here. I'm going to the
train station. And it's this downstairs in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs,
it's maybe like thirty steps, and you know, it's a
big carve out and it's kind of like, you know,
a dip in the ground, so it's like a big
ex chamber right there, because there's you know, concrete walls
all around here in this down in this pit in
the middle of Pleasantville.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
And I start hearing all this.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yelling and screaming from the bar and it's just echoing
down there, and I'm just thinking, what what is going
on there? So I get I get nervous a little
because one I was just kicked out of the bar.
Two the guys were saying, hey, there's that guy. So
I'm like, you know, I just didn't feel safe, Like
what happens if one of them, in their drunken stupor says, hey,
(07:29):
I saw that guy go down the train station steps.
Let's go find them, you know, And this is what's
going through my mind.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
At least, you know, logically, I think it was.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
I thought it was.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not
a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big a person.
So I come back up the steps of the train
station and I just kind of positioned myself right next
to the police station door, which is on the other
side of the train station. And when I hear the
train coming I'll walk down and grab the train. So
(08:03):
I'm I'm laughing, but it's like, actually.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
All of this sounds very rational to me. Actually, you know,
you're I mean, that's you're going to go to the
police station for protection.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
At the time I thought it was too but you know,
in hindsight, I see that every step I made was apparently,
you know, a step toward the fatal results which occurred.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
And you couldn't have predicted that. So you go to
the police station. I was about, well, we actually know,
because there's there's time stamps and stuff, right, we know
you went to the police station at one twelve in
the morning, right, and then and then what happened.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I was outside waiting to listen to the train to
go back down, just for safety reasons, also to hear
tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking,
is that related to the fight? Did the folks get
into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are
they driving around looking for people? It's going to be
one of those like a brawls between villages, you know,
(09:00):
because there's rivalries in some of these towns, like football
rivalries or whatever. Hawthorne, Westlake and I was thinking, oh,
maybe something like that's going on. I'm outside and I
hear these tire screeches, and all of a sudden, I
hear these some it was women's voices, and it sounded
like they were screaming, like a horror film or something
like that. My heart just jumped out of me at
(09:21):
that time, and I ran into the police station and
there was a glass wall there in the desk. Officer
and she's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, well, listen.
I was just coming from down the road from you know,
the seven to eleven, walking back past the lockstock and barrel,
and there was some guys that were after me, and
(09:45):
I'm a little intimidated to wait down here by the
train station alone, and I just worried that they might
come and find me, and I guess fight me.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
That's what's going through my mind. At least.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I asked if I could get a ride to a
police station next door, because in Westchester the train stations
are probably like a mile apart, you know.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
And the officer said, yeah, come here, here's some water.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Sure I can give your ride to the Hawthorn train station,
no problem, give me a second, And so I sat down,
I'm drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I
feel like, you know, that's it. I did what I
had to do to take care of myself at least
for that moment. I'll be able to get a ride
to the train station, go home, and that'll be that
(10:30):
about it. I guess less than a minute around that
time goes by and the officer comes back around to
me and says, hey, listen, I can give you a ride,
but I've got to go run and answer this call.
And I don't know what time I'm coming back, so
I can give your ride, but you have to wait
and night. I have no idea when I'm coming back.
(10:50):
So I said, okay, well thanks, and then he.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
Just like gunned it out the door.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
So I'm sitting there and I finished my water, and
I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my ride
and I do have to get home, So I get
up and I leave, and you know, eventually I find
my way home that night, and I thought that was the.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
End of it.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Well when did you find out what actually happened that
night at the bar, Because it turned out to be
a lot more than what you thought. Right, A couple
of people were stabbed.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Well, Pleasantville is a small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking
about it the next.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Day, Okay, so yeah, so the word gets around. You
find out that there were a couple of people stabbed
in the bar. As it turns out, they were so
drunk they didn't even realize they had been stabbed until
they came out. But one guy was in the hospital
for a couple of weeks. Yeah, so it was a
pretty pretty serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops
are trying to figure out who did it right exactly,
and how the hell did they land on you when
(11:46):
you were in the police station at the time of
the stabbing. Let's talk about this. How did you end
up getting convicted because most of the witnesses said you
weren't there.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, I guess, you know, it's kind of torturous to
explain how we got from A to B, but I'll
give it my best shot.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
So there was about two weeks that went by.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
In the interim, I'm just getting all these rumors, you know,
and friends are talking about folks getting stabbed this, and
that the victims were found actually down the block in
front of the Bank of New York and another bar,
you know, but I kind of put some things together
and say, oh, that probably had something to do with
the altercation that was at lock Stock and Barrel. And
(12:28):
on January twenty eighth, nineteen ninety eight, I'm in Pleasantville,
down by the Piete Seria. You know, my mom still
lived there at the time, as well as brothers and
sisters and a detective, Detective Masie of the Pleasantville Police Department.
I guess he catches wind that I'm there, you know,
and I'm actually on the same block as the police department,
(12:51):
and out of the blue, he approaches me. And you know,
he's a real imposing guy. He probably weighed at least
two hundred pounds and I think he's close to six feet.
And he approaches me and he says, hey, hey, Keon,
come here, you know. And I walk over to him
and he says, you come with me right now. You
talk to me what happened a couple weeks ago. And
(13:12):
I said, well, tell me what you're talking about.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
He goes on about Saturday night, this and that. I
told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you right now,
but here's my card. If you want to, you know,
calm down and we'll make an appointment. I'll come in
and speak with you. But I have other things to
do right now. You know, I have a job. I
work evenings as a waiter. And he got so pissed off,
(13:36):
Like the anger in his face it was, it was
just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says, you
don't want to talk to me? Then all right, a
few and he jams his finger into my nose and
it like stung me. And I'm just in shock right there,
and I'm standing there, frozen, and I don't know what
(13:57):
to do, Like what's next, you know, is he going
to like drag me away? Is he going to like
take me into a van?
Speaker 5 (14:03):
And I don't know all this stuff. I'm like, you know,
I'm at a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away.
I stand there for a minute and then I walk away.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
When I go home, I go to work, My day
goes on. I contemplate calling them and making an appointment,
but I'm not sure. I don't want to go and
face more of that hostility, that's for sure. Then I
think about two weeks go by, and a couple of
my friends call me up or tell me. I don't
(14:36):
recall exactly when I but when I see them or
hear from them, they say, hey, the police are out
with a warrant for your arrest. And I said, are
you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah, they came.
They showed me the warrant and they said they're looking
for you.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
And I said, did you immediately think that it was
for the stabbings or did you think, like, what the
hell could they possibly be looking for me for?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Well, that's the only thing I could put my finger on.
It's not like I was out there doing all sorts
of stuff where they.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
You weren't like a master criminal. No, okay, So okay,
So now they've got this warrant for your arrest. Now
what happens?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Well, I call a lawyer and I tell them a story.
I say, you know, my friend's telling me there's a
warrant for my arrest. And the lawyer's like, well, did
you see it? And I was like, well no, because
you know then I probably would have been arrested by
the time I saw it. But I'd like to know,
how do we handle this? You know, do I turn
myself in, do we call them, do they come.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Pick me up?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
And so we arranged a date for me to turn
myself in on the warrant. So that's what we did,
and I think it was February fourth of nineteen ninety eight.
I went and turned myself in. I was I was arrested.
I was held in county jail for about a week
without bail until I had a felony hearing in Pleasantville.
(15:50):
I went to the felony hearing. There was two victims.
One of the victims is testifying about how we thinks
that I stabbed them this and that, and it was
held over for indictment. I was indicted. I went to trial,
and I was convicted. Of course, you know, there's a
lot more in between to the story, but that's uh,
that's the timeline there.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
But both of the victims was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes,
And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the
time they were stad. They were so heavily intoxicated that
they didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came
along and lifted up their shirt and said, how come
there's all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk
do you have to be to not know you were stabbed.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Well, Boyer, according to his hospital record, he was His
blood alcohol content BAC was greater than point three and
that's all it registered on his blood test. And I
think the way the hospital had it set up, if
you're greater than point three, I mean that was that
was all they showed. You know, they'll show point zero
(16:49):
eight point one, but uh, greater than point three was
was the max. They don't go higher and that and
that's a state where you can, according to the consensus,
like you can black out whose consciousness you potentially you
could die from alcohol poisoning. Sure, at that level.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Let's talk about that for a second. I think for
drunk driving the limit is point zero eight, right, So
when you're at point three, that means you're about four
times the legal limit for driving, and you're getting to
the point where, yes, you can have a cute alcohol
poisoning and you can die. And it's interesting because at trial,
neither one of them was able to identify you as
(17:26):
the assailant, right.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them
or they saw me stab them, but they made conclusions
that must have been me that stabbed them, and you know,
and that the jury was allowed to hear that, and
that they believed I stabbed them. That was a real
shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter or.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
To show the jury.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Why Why did these victims believe that I stabbed them
when in fact I didn't.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Well, we know now that there are a number of reasons.
The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know
lead to wrongful identifications in so many cases. Right, the
police showed a photo lineup with you in it and
showed it to the victims and told them that the
actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a number
(18:19):
of things they did that are at a minimum bad
police work. And I think that's one of the factors
that happened in your case that led to you being
identified as the sale even though you weren't even there.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
That's one of the main factors.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Yes, so you're a trial. How long did it take
you to get to trial?
Speaker 5 (18:35):
It took a little over one year.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
So you were in jail the whole time.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
I actually bailed out.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I was out on five thousand dollars bail, So before trial,
I was out on bail, and during trial, I was
I guess, lucky enough to be out on bail.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
It's interesting that they set bail at five thousand dollars, right,
That would indicate to me that the judge who set
to bail was not very concerned that you were going
to be around stabbing anybody, because if they were, they
certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand. I mean that's
almost like a misdemeanor type of bail.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Well, when we went to the felony hearing, I think
the judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses
in the case and set the bail at five thousand,
and I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing
occurred in February of ninety eight, and the trial occurred
in February of ninety nine, so there was a whole
(19:28):
year there to prepare and you know, fix up the weaknesses.
And I guess those are nice words to use, because
the real words I should use is they had a
whole year to destroy evidence, to suppress evidence, to fabricate evidence,
and to coerce these witnesses to testify against me. So
(19:49):
by the time I went to trial, you know, it
was pretty much guaranteed lights out.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Yeah, I mean it's pretty incredible when you think about, Again,
this is New York. You're a guy who's not the
typical defendant. You know, you hadn't really had a lot
of altercations with the police before, and yet they did
things that are so beyond the pale, including not handing
over a bloody shirt and hat that were found at
(20:16):
the crime scene, right, I mean, and then eventually claiming
that they were misplaced. I mean misplaced, that's a nice word.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
Yeah, that was just ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I mean, I have no words to explain their reasoning
and doing that, or how they explain why they did that.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
It's just it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Not only did they withhold exculpatory evidence, including the videotape
that they knew had a timestamp on it that would
have placed you at the police station at the time
that the crime was being committed, which is right there,
case closed done. That means they knew that you didn't
do it, that they withheld that. They intimidated your friend Eric, right,
(20:58):
who was in the bar.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, well, I'd have to just say he was not
my friend, but I didn't know who he was.
Speaker 5 (21:05):
Yeah, he was an associate.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I mean, he would have been a friend if he
was a nicer person, but I just wouldn't call him
a friend.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Okay, So they intimidated acquaintance of yours named Eric Freud,
into implicating you. And we know from whether way the
cop behaved towards you actually physically assaulting you, yeah, on
the street in front of the pizza place. We know
that there's a lot of credibility to that claim. And
then they also threatened the bouncer if he didn't implicate you, right,
(21:37):
so they I mean, I don't want to believe that
police behave like that. I grew up and I still
believe that. You know, Listen, most I think most police
are good. I think as a society we need police.
I'm not one of these people who's like an anarchist
or something, and I always say I'm not soft on crime.
I'm tough on injustice. Right. I believe we need to
have a system of laws, We need to have people
(21:57):
in place, police, prosecutors. Whole system has to function because
it has to keep society safe. But when it's turned
upside down, it's just it it's so deeply disturbing to
see what they can do, how they can grind somebody
like you up so ken now that you are a
practicing attorney, and we're going to get to that in
(22:17):
a few minutes because some of the stuff you're doing
now is so fascinating. Looking back on your trial, do
you feel that you were represented in an adequate manner?
Speaker 5 (22:27):
Well, I mean I don't.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
I don't and I hope I never represent someone myself
as an attorney. Now, the way I was represented at
trial by my attorney, then there was a lot of
problems there with the defense. At the same time, I
have to say to myself, well, how can a defense
truly be effective if all the evidence is being withheld
(22:55):
from the defense?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
It's really hard, you know. So yeah, I mean you
didn't have much of a chance. You would have needed
the Clarence Darrow or a modern day version be very
shack representing you to give yourself a fighting chance. Absolutely,
and that's clearly not what you had. You weren't a
rich guy, right, or you couldn't afford the dream team.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Oh, I was on financial aid going to community college
at that time, right, I could hardly even afford, to.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Put it politely, you were fucked, right, But well, then
you got to trial. It was already It basically was
a formality. They were they were gonna they had you,
They were going to get you. And that's exactly what
they did. You get convicted and sentenced to what seven
(23:49):
to fourteen years In person, I'm trying to imagine what
was going through your mind when that happened.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Well, like you had just said a few minutes ago,
in your America, this doesn't happen. This type of behavior
from police officers doesn't happen.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
And that's what I was thinking too, even.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
After my arrest and during my trial, you know, and
now all I keep thinking is, you know, there's no
way that the jury would convict me or this judge
will allow this even to get to a verdict based
on this evidence. And I know I'm innocent, and I
feel like, you know, that doesn't happen. You don't get
(24:29):
convicted of things you didn't do. Not in my America, right,
And the last thing I think in my mind is
that everyone would simply jump on board and push my
head under the water. That's the last thing I thought
would happen. And the whole time I was in prison,
I thought, surely someone would come with a helping hand
(24:50):
and see the injustice that has occurred here. But you
know that doesn't happen, you know, and you're stuck, always
hoping for the next level.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
When you're in prison.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
At first it's oh, you know, you get arrested, I'll
be released at the felony hearing. They'll see this was
a mistake, you know. But that doesn't happen, and the
jury will see and the judge will see, and maybe
even the prosecutor will see that I'm innocent. You know,
these are actually kind of naive thoughts.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Looking back, they were naive thoughts. I mean, they're idealistic thoughts.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, you really can't ignore that. Oftentimes police and prosecutors
have a motive to get a conviction, which doesn't always
equate with justice.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
No, and that's the reasonable doubt standard is something that
needs to be reinforced into everyone's head. There you have
to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In your case,
there was tons of reasonable doubt. Even though a huge
percentage of the evidence, and the most important evidence was
with hell, there was still reasonable doubt and you still
had a story to tell that that should have at
least put some one of two of the jurors in
(25:58):
a position to say I can't reasonably convict this guy.
Which prison did you get sent to?
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Well, initially, I'm in Westchester County Jail almost almost for
like a year there. It turns out that they apparently
they forgot me. That's what I was told. After I
was convicted, my bells revoked. I go to Westchester County Jail,
and everybody I see coming in after pleading guilty or convicted,
(26:25):
they're upstate within two weeks, and there I am eight
nine months later, and I didn't know what was going on.
So I actually called my mom and I said, can
you call the jail and find out what's going on.
It's supposed to be out of here to go up state,
Not like I was like, hey, let's go up state,
but in the county. It's pretty rough conditions Westchester County Jail.
(26:46):
I mean, basically don't get to see anybody or anything.
It's no sunlight. It's pretty tough. So she called and
she said, well, the state says they forgotcha, so they
didn't know, you know, whatever paperwork era. So I think
in July of ninety nine, I shipped upstate to Downstate
Correctional Facility, which is in Fishkill, New York. After my
(27:08):
mom called and I figured out that I was lingering
over there in the county jail for a better half
of a year.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
And that tells you something about just how bad jails are.
And I think it's important for people to realize that
you don't see the sunlight thinking about that. How insane
is it that you, an innocent man, is actually asking
can you please transfer me to it? Was that a
maximum security prison? It was, Yeah, so you attract to
transferred to a maximum security prison. So in prison, now
you're in this it even it sounds it just sounds
(27:36):
scary right downstate. It just sounds like.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
It was prison in general. It was very, very scary
and intimidating.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
How did you survive in this environment?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Well, the first thing I had to do was I guess,
observe what's going on and find out what I want
to be involved with. When I went upstate, or even
it started in the county jail, I realized that there's
a lot of folks there in prison, in jail in general,
who had or have drug problems, you know, and there's
(28:12):
no doubt that they continue to use drugs while in prison.
And there's another large group which tends to gamble all
the time. Some of them they'll talk to you with that,
you know, without strangling. You are are rippings about jaboget, right,
So you know, as a young, skinny, twenty two year
old that I was, you know, and they say, they
(28:32):
give some advice and they say, stay away from gambling
and drugs and you're gonna increase your chances of not
getting a shank in the back. And I thought, you know,
that really made sense. So I'm really not a gambler
to begin with, you know, And the most I ever
did back in high school was smoke some pots.
Speaker 5 (28:50):
So I thought, hey, I'm good.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
You know. I wasn't the type of guy who had
to prove myself. You know, that's not what I was
there for. I wasn't there to earn my stripes in prison.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
I was there because for things I didn't do.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
You know. It was not a big bad dude. And
I think I.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Have ability to make people laugh as well and feel
comfortable around me. So a lot of folks, a lot
of folks felt a closeness or ability to talk to me,
and that includes you know, some of the gang leaders,
some of the old timers. You know, these are big
time dudes in jail. They head up the gangs, and
you know, I would talk with them, and they seem
(29:36):
to be more you know, in control and calm. I
guess because of their you know, a long experience. They
were no longer going out doing wild things. Those were
the younger folks in the prison generally, who were like
stabbing up people or doing crazy stuff for no reason.
So I think I made I guess you could say,
friends or whatever with a few of them, and they
(29:58):
respected me.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
And you think they knew that you were innocent.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
No, to be honest with you, that's probably the last
thing you want to do going upstate because there are
folks there. They will pray, people prey on any whiff
of weakness, any whiff of weakness, and it's really intense
like that, and you just have to learn really quick
what people interpret as weakness because you will instantly get
(30:27):
preyed upon. Like, for example, I'm crossing my legs right here, right,
No big deal.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
You look at it, You see anything I.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Didn't notice until you've pointed it.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Well, go up there as twenty two years old and
you're crossing your legs and in prison. The environment is
it's so homophobic, it's unreal. It's on real, but that's
the standard and it's fully accepted. And that's just the
machismo the male line there. It's so homophobic. You cross
(30:58):
your legs or you do anything that's considered not macho,
and you're instantly labeled as weak or soft and or gay,
and then you're preyed upon as someone who can be
made fun of or stolen from, or a chump or
a punk or whatever. So you really have to watch
out for anything like that in the outside world, which
(31:21):
you just being yourself, you know, crossing my legs whatever.
I mean, I'm not gay, but it wouldn't matter. I'm
just saying any any indication. At the same time, you know,
there's people that sniff out newcomers and they'll try to
watch your body language, how you hold your shoulders, and
if there's a piece of weakness, they'll come up and
(31:41):
they'll try to be your friend or this or that.
You know, it might not find out for weeks later
that they're actually preying on you, praying on your weakness
to find out so that they can basically wrap you
up in a corner some place and demand your commissary.
And I've seen this happen to so many people. It's
rather sad. If that works out, then they go on
(32:03):
to the next level of intimidation, and they'll have people
call their family at home and say, hey, can you
send me some pack of cigarettes? Can you send me
some money? I'm in trouble here, and that money will
go to, you know, an extort or someone else under
threat of rape or or getting beat up, and then
oftentimes you know it does lead to rape, but the
(32:25):
person who you know who's victimizing there is just really
a really intimidated person.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
It's all so terrifying, the whole idea of the eggshells
you're walking on and having to learn a whole new,
twisted culture and programming, and it's got to stop. I mean,
being sent to prison shouldn't mean being tortured. There should
be some some dignity in this process. And that is
it's an affront to should be in front of everybody's
sensibility and everybody's sense of fairness so great, So here's
(32:55):
where things get really nuts. Kean on November seventheeenth, two
thousand and seven, during a dinner at your family's home,
your dad was talking about how much he missed you
and wish you were there and everything else, and then
a crazy, crazy thing happened. And I don't know how
easy this is for you to even talk about, but
I mean, do you want to tell what happened or
(33:16):
you want me to do it?
Speaker 5 (33:18):
Go ahead and then I'll fill in the blanks.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
So, having read the story, it was at that time
that your brother, I think his name is pronounced Kavon, correct, right,
your brother Kavon began weeping at the dinner table and
admitted that he, in fact was the culprit. And I'm
getting the chills as I'm saying this, right, and I'm
trying to picture what the hell was going through your parents'
minds at this point in time, right, I mean, here
(33:41):
they are talking about how much they miss you, as
any parent would, and now learning not only that in fact,
everything you've been saying all along was true, that you
were innocent, but that the actual perpetrator is sitting at
the dinner tab with him. It's your brother. Things start
to progress from there, right, Tell me how that things
start to move at that point, because a new hearing
of ultimately is held at which he's brought to the stand.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Well, just to give you, I guess an abbreviated step
by step timeline there.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
So after that evening, you know, my father.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
And brother, sisters. Eventually they came and saw me and
and told me what occurred, and I said, okay, well,
this is what we should do now. Eventually it led
to affidavits reciting his statements, the confession to stabbing the
two individuals being included in emotion what they call a
(34:36):
four forty motion in New York, which is what you
do after direct appeal to get facts off the record
in and that was filed and that resulted in a hearing.
Following the hearing, my conviction was vacated and a new
trial was ordered based on the confession of my brother,
as well as some other evidence which developed during the hearing.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
But wait a minute before before we get to that. Yeah,
I'm at a loss to imagine what that meeting was like.
Was it both of your parents that came to the
prison to tell you this news?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
No, my dad, Yeah, my mom was in Chicago at
that time.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
So your dad comes to the prison and tells you that,
in fact, your brother had admitted that it was he
who had committed this crime for which you have now
had eight years of your life stolen from you in
the most terrible way. I mean, what was that like.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Well, different people will have different reactions if they were
in my position, But for me, I can tell you
it was simply a feeling of relief.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
I just felt relieved.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Because now you could see light at the end of
the tunnel. Yes, well, that's logical. You didn't feel rage.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
It was relief for a while, did come. I mean
I did throughout the years that followed up, you know,
possibly up until just a few years ago. I don't
talk to my brother right now for variety reasons. Obviously
you know this is what happened here is one of them.
But in the beginning, for at least a few months,
(36:18):
it was just relief.
Speaker 5 (36:20):
It was just relief. You know.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
I was sitting there, stuck in prison, and I couldn't
I just couldn't figure out why I'm there or how,
you know, how the state could have so much power
over an individual's liberty with without without providing enough circuit breakers,
enough safety nets, you know, And I'm still.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
There, amazingly, as fate would have it. On September twenty third,
two thousand and eight, which was your thirty third birthday, right, Yeah,
you got the best birthday present you could imagine.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
I definitely did you want to talk about that? Well,
I was upstate, you know where was I at this time?
I think I was at a Sing Sing correctional facility,
and they called me down to white planes and I
walked out in front of the judge on September twenty three. Meanwhile,
I had a retrial ordered by this time, but it
was just a retrial, and I think the prosecutor stepped
(37:16):
up and just said we would not oppose defendant's ro
R release right now. And I heard that and I
was just like, I don't know, I'm lucky at him
lose consciousness at that time, just hearing those words.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
So the judge cut me loose, got me loose.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Right then in the court room, and I was in
this state issued clothing, and I'm still surrounded by these officers,
you know, like a sergeant, you know, a couple of
muscle bound officers all surrounding me with handcuffs. And I
couldn't believe it.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
So what happened? Did they take the handcuffs off right
then and there? But then you had to still change.
It was like you walk out into the daylight wearing
a correction of the uniform.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Right at they gave me what's called a court uniform,
which is like, I guess it's always tight jeans. They
always give somebody two sizes too small. But so it
was tight jeans like from the eighties.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
You know.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
So wait a minute, but you're in the courtroom, in
the courtroom, but you were still dressed in the.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
State issued clothing.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
Yeah, at what point did you change into these two
tight jeans?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Oh, right before I got into court, they say, here's
a beige sweatshirt and jeans. Here, you can put them
on so you don't have to go in front of
the judge in your prison greens.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Okay, so at that moment you almost collapse, right, but
you didn't, And then did the courtroom break out? That
moment must be etched in your memory permanently.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
I mean, well, if you take it back about one
minute before the judge said that, you have an officer
sitting down on my right side, an officer sitting down
on my left side, and an officer behind me.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
And as they walk you in, well.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
One guy you know who feels like he has like
the hand of a gorilla strength, you know, always the
case has a hand on your shoulder, and they're walking
you to the chair. Sit down here, look forward, don't
turn to the right, don't turn to the left. And
to be honest with you, they they mean that, don't
turn your head to the right. Don't turn your head
to the left. And I've seen people upstate or in
the prison facilities. You know, if you turn your head,
(39:18):
you get taken down. And it's not a pretty sight.
Speaker 5 (39:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
They don't just take you down, you get a beat down.
So I'm sitting in this chair and then have officer
like you can feel the breath on the back of
your neck of these officers just waiting to take down
a convicted violent felon for even moving your head to
the right. And that was how it was until the
(39:44):
judge said ro rd And so I turned to my
lawyer and I said, can I can I stand up?
Speaker 5 (39:53):
Can I'm free to go?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
And he says yes, and all the officers stand up,
and I get up and I say, you're on or
I can leave. She says yes, you can leave, and
I turn the officers and I say I can go out.
Those back doors. Yes, I had to ask the question,
like I must have just kept repeating it to every
single officer there before I even felt the courage to
(40:15):
take a step, because you gotta understand, for ten years
I had been under the gun, and if you make
any move unauthorized in a situation like that, you are
getting taken down and oftentimes you end up in the
hospital and there's no recourse for that. You know, you
(40:36):
turn your head when they say you didn't turn your head,
you disrespect a direct order. And you know the way
the law works as far as prisoners is concerned. Apparently
there you can get taken down and knee in the
back and you know, a foot on the face, I guess,
but you know the it was hard to believe, and
I really couldn't believe it. I asked, I think I
just repeated so many times, can I.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
Go out that door? Can I go out that door?
And I had to make sure.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Because I felt I felt it was unreal.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
And your parents and family in the courtroom, yeah.
Speaker 5 (41:08):
They started crying.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
So I actually walked over back of them in the
seat and I said, don't cry this, you know, this
is a beautiful moment.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
Should be happy.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
And so I tried to be strong for them, and
I tried myself not to cry, because you know, I
didn't want it to turn into one big weeping fest,
and you know, I wanted I wanted to see some
smiles on their face. You know, care about Tom, I
love them.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
And so.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
We got up and left, and I left with my
sisters and they took me to immediately, they took me
to the mall to get Bear jeans, and you know,
that was that was a very interesting moment as well,
because they're picking out jeans for me, you know, because
my style is ten years outdated, and I'm trying these
(41:53):
jeans on it and they're all tight, and I'm telling them,
I think this is really tight on my you know,
my butt, and they're like, listen, it should be a
lot tighter.
Speaker 5 (42:03):
We're letting you go with that. That's the style now.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
And so I was like okay, and I tried them on.
I walked out and took me a few weeks to
realize that that was probably just ordinary geens right there,
as opposed to nineteen ninety nine when everybody was wearing
more loose stuff. And so I got used to it,
still going ten years later.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
So you ultimately graduate college and go to law school,
not just any law school, NYU law school.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
So let me correct you on that one. So I
went to NYU underbred and I graduated with honors. For
law school, I went to Benjamin N. Cardozo Law School,
which is Yeshiva University's grad school. You know, that's also
the home of the Innocent Project, of course, and that
that's my that's my law school.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
Yeah, so you went to NYU. You went from Community College, Pleasantville,
waiting Tables, maximum security prison, unbelievab ordeal and saga to NYU,
one of the hardest schools in the world to get
into and graduate with honors, and then to Cardozo Law School,
(43:12):
which is the home of the Innis's Project, which is
again a top top law school. And then you pass
the bar, which is again I mean, that's an incredible
accomplishment for anyone, much less someone who if your brain
was spaghetti, nobody would it would be totally understandable. But
you managed to find this extra gear, this focus, this determination,
(43:33):
is drive, and accomplish these great things and pass the
bar and now you're in practice as a criminal defense
attorney in New York.
Speaker 5 (43:40):
That is correct.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Yes, incredible. It's an incredible, incredible story. And you've won
one lawsuit right already for yourself, for myself. Yeah, right,
And now you're representing clients, including one whose story has
kept me up at nights since you told me about it.
And I don't know if you're at liberty to talk
about that case. But what's really nuts to me is
(44:02):
that Keon now finds himself representing a case that is
eerily similar to his own.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
That is true, Absolutely, I see a lot of things
in common with my case there. It's part of the
reason which drives me to help this man out.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
Are you able to talk about that? I know it's
an ongoing case, so.
Speaker 5 (44:17):
It's an ongoing case.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
I think the case you're talking about I'm wearing a
T shirt right now, right, is that it?
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yes, So it's free free Darwin, just like it sounds
the ar Wyn broke r Oque dot com.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Yeah, that has a little information about the case and
what we're trying to do for Darwin.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
And so I mean, this case, it seems like, has
a very eerie resemblance to your own, you know, with
the difference being that in this case someone was it
was a stabbing but it was actually someone who was killed.
And Darwin has been in prison even longer than you were,
and it's still fighting for his freedom.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Yeah, he's going on quite a long time now, but
you know he's a strong individual, so hopefully he can
get through this and result will be something equitable and
just for him at least to gain his freedom again.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
And it's an important part of your story too, So
I want to talk about this because this is where
it's so important that people like you exist and are
able to spend the time and devote the brain power
and the energy and the inspiration, draw on your own
experience to help somebody who was wrongfully convicted and is
now serving a terrible sentence in a terrible place. And
(45:29):
this is a guy who was a young up and comer,
right entrepreneur, entrepreneur running a pet store, write his own
pet store at twenty four years old. I want to
bring attention to his case and use your story to
drive interest in Darwin's case and helpefully have him sitting
here in your seat sometime soon.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
I would love nothing more than to see that.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
For the people listening, what can they do to help Darwin?
Speaker 3 (45:55):
To help Darwin? Well, you know, we have to hire
a gang expert. It was exclusive to New York and
investigators and all these things cost money. And when you
go to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's like pushing a
rock up a mountain. It requires so much effort because
courts are really not receptive generally, so it requires a
(46:15):
lot of effort and a lot of money. So on
the website, if someone would like to donate, it's right there.
None of it will go to me. I don't charge
an hourly fee. I'm working pro bono and I will
continue to do so until I see justice done in
this case. But they can donate and it will go
toward a forensic pathologist, a gang expert, other experts that
(46:37):
are needed. Possibly paperwork that I acquire from the DA
or police or litigation you know, costs court fees. It'll
all go toward that. So that's one way that they
can help and it will go a long way.
Speaker 4 (46:50):
So in a nutshell, people please go to free Darwinroque
dot com and see how you can get involved and
help Kion in this remarkable effort that he's putting forth
on behalf of this innocent man who finds himself in
these strangely Twilight Zone esque circumstances that you found yourself
(47:12):
in twenty years ago or so. Ken, we have a
tradition here on Ronfuel Conviction, which is that I like
to turn the mic over to you, the star of
our show today, for any closing thoughts.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
Well, if folks are out there listening, obviously they expressed
an interest in the criminal justice system, are the injustice
that's occurring within that system. If you feel to help out,
there's always ways, and it doesn't always require giving money,
although every little bit does help as well. Reach out
(47:46):
to some folks and you know, if you're really interested
in helping the movement, because there's plenty of folks still
in jail for things they did not do. I think
it's epidemic, if not pandemic, in this country. And also
thing we're still trying to get a hold on how
many people actually get convicted of things they didn't do,
(48:06):
and I think it's I think it's much greater than
your average person anticipates. So don't be afraid to reach out.
Maybe volunteer some time. Hey, it could be a good thing.
You can donate to certain charities and give it a shot.
Might make it feel better.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
donor to the Ennocence Project and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
(48:51):
The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I was naive enough to believe that I would be
able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,
that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't
be going to prison because I was a good person.
I hadn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
In the back of your mind, you say, well, when
we go to a hearing or we go to court,
the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one
knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected
from the lower courts all the way up to the
United States Supreme Court.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,
in that moment, unchecked authority.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Don't presume that people are guilty when you seem on TV,
because it may just be a dirty da that is
trying to rise upward.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
(01:18):
Jason Flamm. Today I have very special guests Keon Katibi,
who's going to tell you a story that will well,
it'll probably blow your mind because it blows mine. Ken,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 5 (01:30):
Thank you, good to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
So Keon, ironically, I guess you could say, is from Pleasantville,
New York, and you grew up in sort of a
nuclear family, sort of a normal childhood pretty much.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, there was five of us, all about a year
year and a half apart, and I'm the number two.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
And the crux of your story all revolves around a
tragic incident that happened in a bar in Pleasantville called
lock Stock and Barrel eight.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
That's where it all started.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Yes, that's where it all started. Two people were stabbed
in a fight in this bar, and at the time
that it happened, you were in the police station, which
is just sort of like, I mean, you can't have
much of a better alibi than that it was hidden.
But there's video that exists that proves that you were
in the police station at the time of the stabbing,
and yet they managed to convict you. Anyway, So let's
(02:22):
go back to that fateful day or that faithful night,
I should say, when you were in that bar, What
was going on? How did this fight happen? How did
you end up going to the police state. I mean,
it's all so nuts.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a good place to start. Well,
I was inside of the bar Lockstock and barrel in
the village of Pleusbonville, Westchester County, New York, and i'd
just gotten there. I think I was there maybe under
ten minutes.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
And there was a scuffle.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
There was a I guess a group of young folks
and everybody in there was in their twenties, most likely
college bar and there was a scuffle and I got
pushed on the back and kind of like bumped, and
I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar.
A little shorter than me is stocky guy, and he
grabbed me by the collar and starts lifting me up
and I put my hand to push him away.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
He's assaulting me, harassing me at the very least.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
And at that time, the bouncer was standing at the
door and he turned around he saw some kind of scuffle.
I'm not sure exactly what was going on. I was
just focusing on the guy who had his arm around
my collar and squeezing my shirt.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
That's reasonable, you know.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
And the bouncer grab my shoulder and says, hey, you
got to get out of here.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
So I left. You know, I obliged.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I'm not going to sit there and argue, hey, I
deserve to stay, you know, So I walk out, and
the bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but
you were the closest guy to me, and I just
had to get a grip on the situation.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
So I left.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I went to seven to eleven store to get some coffee,
and you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well,
all my friends are inside. I came with them. At
this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although
I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do
I get home? Do I go tell my friends? And
(04:20):
you know, we're nineteen ninety eight. Everybody doesn't have a
cell phone, er nothing like that. That's just not going on.
So you know, maybe a few people at that time,
if I recall correctly, had what they call pagers. Right, yeah,
So I'm thinking what do I do? So I start
walking back toward the bar and saying, maybe I can
see someone outside, make sure everyone my friends knew at
(04:43):
least I was kicked out and that I'm going home,
or maybe they're leaving too soon.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
I'll get a ride, right, right.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
So I start walking back to the bar and there's
a huge parking lot on one of the sides of
the lock stock and barrel, bar or pub, whatever you
call it. And then I see a group there. There's
altercation and there's yelling and screaming. But I walk a
little closer because I, you know, it didn't think it
involved me and didn't at that time.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
It's also the way back to the bar.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
That I have to go, so I get a little
closer and seems these guys are just like arguing and
screaming with each other some some dumb stuff. In my mind,
I'm like, oh, there's a couple of drunk folks out
here arguing, you know, has nothing to do with me.
And I go to walk past them and one of
the guys points at me and says, hey, there's the
guy from the bar. In my head, I'm just like,
(05:36):
oh my god. And I'm thinking, is that one of
the guys who had me by the collar or one
of his friends. I'm like, jeez, it wasn't enough that
I just got kicked out of the bar. Now they're like, hey,
that's him. Like so I kind of steer around the
group to get to the sidewalk because I don't want
anything to do with that. And the guy's still yelling
(05:56):
and it looks like he wanted to come after me
or to hit the tone of his voice.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
So, you know, and I'm a small guy.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
You know, at that time, I think I weighed like
one hundred and forty five pounds at you know, five nine,
so that's probably as light as you can get. You know.
I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs
and everything. And you know, these guys are some they
were both actually football players. Oh so it's very intimidating
for me.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Yeah, and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like,
this is not a great night so far. Yeah, exactly, exactly,
but it's about to get a lot worse.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
It's about to get a lot worse. In fact, that
was the beginning of the next ten years of downward spiral,
you know, until the light, so till the hard fought
light that is. So I managed to get past them
and past them. Right across the street is the train station.
Speaker 5 (06:46):
I walked past them.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I said, I'm out of here. I'm going to the
train station. And it's this downstairs in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs,
it's maybe like thirty steps, and you know, it's a
big carve out and it's kind of like, you know,
a dip in the ground, so it's like a big
ex chamber right there, because there's you know, concrete walls
all around here in this down in this pit in
the middle of Pleasantville.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
And I start hearing all this.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yelling and screaming from the bar and it's just echoing
down there, and I'm just thinking, what what is going
on there? So I get I get nervous a little
because one I was just kicked out of the bar.
Two the guys were saying, hey, there's that guy. So
I'm like, you know, I just didn't feel safe, Like
what happens if one of them, in their drunken stupor says, hey,
(07:29):
I saw that guy go down the train station steps.
Let's go find them, you know, And this is what's
going through my mind.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
At least, you know, logically, I think it was.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
I thought it was.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not
a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big a person.
So I come back up the steps of the train
station and I just kind of positioned myself right next
to the police station door, which is on the other
side of the train station. And when I hear the
train coming I'll walk down and grab the train. So
(08:03):
I'm I'm laughing, but it's like, actually.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
All of this sounds very rational to me. Actually, you know,
you're I mean, that's you're going to go to the
police station for protection.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
At the time I thought it was too but you know,
in hindsight, I see that every step I made was apparently,
you know, a step toward the fatal results which occurred.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
And you couldn't have predicted that. So you go to
the police station. I was about, well, we actually know,
because there's there's time stamps and stuff, right, we know
you went to the police station at one twelve in
the morning, right, and then and then what happened.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I was outside waiting to listen to the train to
go back down, just for safety reasons, also to hear
tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking,
is that related to the fight? Did the folks get
into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are
they driving around looking for people? It's going to be
one of those like a brawls between villages, you know,
(09:00):
because there's rivalries in some of these towns, like football
rivalries or whatever. Hawthorne, Westlake and I was thinking, oh,
maybe something like that's going on. I'm outside and I
hear these tire screeches, and all of a sudden, I
hear these some it was women's voices, and it sounded
like they were screaming, like a horror film or something
like that. My heart just jumped out of me at
(09:21):
that time, and I ran into the police station and
there was a glass wall there in the desk. Officer
and she's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, well, listen.
I was just coming from down the road from you know,
the seven to eleven, walking back past the lockstock and barrel,
and there was some guys that were after me, and
(09:45):
I'm a little intimidated to wait down here by the
train station alone, and I just worried that they might
come and find me, and I guess fight me.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
That's what's going through my mind. At least.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I asked if I could get a ride to a
police station next door, because in Westchester the train stations
are probably like a mile apart, you know.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
And the officer said, yeah, come here, here's some water.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Sure I can give your ride to the Hawthorn train station,
no problem, give me a second, And so I sat down,
I'm drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I
feel like, you know, that's it. I did what I
had to do to take care of myself at least
for that moment. I'll be able to get a ride
to the train station, go home, and that'll be that
(10:30):
about it. I guess less than a minute around that
time goes by and the officer comes back around to
me and says, hey, listen, I can give you a ride,
but I've got to go run and answer this call.
And I don't know what time I'm coming back, so
I can give your ride, but you have to wait
and night. I have no idea when I'm coming back.
(10:50):
So I said, okay, well thanks, and then he.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
Just like gunned it out the door.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
So I'm sitting there and I finished my water, and
I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my ride
and I do have to get home, So I get
up and I leave, and you know, eventually I find
my way home that night, and I thought that was the.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
End of it.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Well when did you find out what actually happened that
night at the bar, Because it turned out to be
a lot more than what you thought. Right, A couple
of people were stabbed.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Well, Pleasantville is a small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking
about it the next.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Day, Okay, so yeah, so the word gets around. You
find out that there were a couple of people stabbed
in the bar. As it turns out, they were so
drunk they didn't even realize they had been stabbed until
they came out. But one guy was in the hospital
for a couple of weeks. Yeah, so it was a
pretty pretty serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops
are trying to figure out who did it right exactly,
and how the hell did they land on you when
(11:46):
you were in the police station at the time of
the stabbing. Let's talk about this. How did you end
up getting convicted because most of the witnesses said you
weren't there.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, I guess, you know, it's kind of torturous to
explain how we got from A to B, but I'll
give it my best shot.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
So there was about two weeks that went by.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
In the interim, I'm just getting all these rumors, you know,
and friends are talking about folks getting stabbed this, and
that the victims were found actually down the block in
front of the Bank of New York and another bar,
you know, but I kind of put some things together
and say, oh, that probably had something to do with
the altercation that was at lock Stock and Barrel. And
(12:28):
on January twenty eighth, nineteen ninety eight, I'm in Pleasantville,
down by the Piete Seria. You know, my mom still
lived there at the time, as well as brothers and
sisters and a detective, Detective Masie of the Pleasantville Police Department.
I guess he catches wind that I'm there, you know,
and I'm actually on the same block as the police department,
(12:51):
and out of the blue, he approaches me. And you know,
he's a real imposing guy. He probably weighed at least
two hundred pounds and I think he's close to six feet.
And he approaches me and he says, hey, hey, Keon,
come here, you know. And I walk over to him
and he says, you come with me right now. You
talk to me what happened a couple weeks ago. And
(13:12):
I said, well, tell me what you're talking about.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
He goes on about Saturday night, this and that. I
told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you right now,
but here's my card. If you want to, you know,
calm down and we'll make an appointment. I'll come in
and speak with you. But I have other things to
do right now. You know, I have a job. I
work evenings as a waiter. And he got so pissed off,
(13:36):
Like the anger in his face it was, it was
just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says, you
don't want to talk to me? Then all right, a
few and he jams his finger into my nose and
it like stung me. And I'm just in shock right there,
and I'm standing there, frozen, and I don't know what
(13:57):
to do, Like what's next, you know, is he going
to like drag me away? Is he going to like
take me into a van?
Speaker 5 (14:03):
And I don't know all this stuff. I'm like, you know,
I'm at a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away.
I stand there for a minute and then I walk away.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
When I go home, I go to work, My day
goes on. I contemplate calling them and making an appointment,
but I'm not sure. I don't want to go and
face more of that hostility, that's for sure. Then I
think about two weeks go by, and a couple of
my friends call me up or tell me. I don't
(14:36):
recall exactly when I but when I see them or
hear from them, they say, hey, the police are out
with a warrant for your arrest. And I said, are
you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah, they came.
They showed me the warrant and they said they're looking
for you.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
And I said, did you immediately think that it was
for the stabbings or did you think, like, what the
hell could they possibly be looking for me for?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Well, that's the only thing I could put my finger on.
It's not like I was out there doing all sorts
of stuff where they.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
You weren't like a master criminal. No, okay, So okay,
So now they've got this warrant for your arrest. Now
what happens?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Well, I call a lawyer and I tell them a story.
I say, you know, my friend's telling me there's a
warrant for my arrest. And the lawyer's like, well, did
you see it? And I was like, well no, because
you know then I probably would have been arrested by
the time I saw it. But I'd like to know,
how do we handle this? You know, do I turn
myself in, do we call them, do they come.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Pick me up?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
And so we arranged a date for me to turn
myself in on the warrant. So that's what we did,
and I think it was February fourth of nineteen ninety eight.
I went and turned myself in. I was I was arrested.
I was held in county jail for about a week
without bail until I had a felony hearing in Pleasantville.
(15:50):
I went to the felony hearing. There was two victims.
One of the victims is testifying about how we thinks
that I stabbed them this and that, and it was
held over for indictment. I was indicted. I went to trial,
and I was convicted. Of course, you know, there's a
lot more in between to the story, but that's uh,
that's the timeline there.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
But both of the victims was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes,
And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the
time they were stad. They were so heavily intoxicated that
they didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came
along and lifted up their shirt and said, how come
there's all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk
do you have to be to not know you were stabbed.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Well, Boyer, according to his hospital record, he was His
blood alcohol content BAC was greater than point three and
that's all it registered on his blood test. And I
think the way the hospital had it set up, if
you're greater than point three, I mean that was that
was all they showed. You know, they'll show point zero
(16:49):
eight point one, but uh, greater than point three was
was the max. They don't go higher and that and
that's a state where you can, according to the consensus,
like you can black out whose consciousness you potentially you
could die from alcohol poisoning. Sure, at that level.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Let's talk about that for a second. I think for
drunk driving the limit is point zero eight, right, So
when you're at point three, that means you're about four
times the legal limit for driving, and you're getting to
the point where, yes, you can have a cute alcohol
poisoning and you can die. And it's interesting because at trial,
neither one of them was able to identify you as
(17:26):
the assailant, right.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them
or they saw me stab them, but they made conclusions
that must have been me that stabbed them, and you know,
and that the jury was allowed to hear that, and
that they believed I stabbed them. That was a real
shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter or.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
To show the jury.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Why Why did these victims believe that I stabbed them
when in fact I didn't.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Well, we know now that there are a number of reasons.
The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know
lead to wrongful identifications in so many cases. Right, the
police showed a photo lineup with you in it and
showed it to the victims and told them that the
actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a number
(18:19):
of things they did that are at a minimum bad
police work. And I think that's one of the factors
that happened in your case that led to you being
identified as the sale even though you weren't even there.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
That's one of the main factors.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Yes, so you're a trial. How long did it take
you to get to trial?
Speaker 5 (18:35):
It took a little over one year.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
So you were in jail the whole time.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
I actually bailed out.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I was out on five thousand dollars bail, So before trial,
I was out on bail, and during trial, I was
I guess, lucky enough to be out on bail.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
It's interesting that they set bail at five thousand dollars, right,
That would indicate to me that the judge who set
to bail was not very concerned that you were going
to be around stabbing anybody, because if they were, they
certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand. I mean that's
almost like a misdemeanor type of bail.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Well, when we went to the felony hearing, I think
the judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses
in the case and set the bail at five thousand,
and I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing
occurred in February of ninety eight, and the trial occurred
in February of ninety nine, so there was a whole
(19:28):
year there to prepare and you know, fix up the weaknesses.
And I guess those are nice words to use, because
the real words I should use is they had a
whole year to destroy evidence, to suppress evidence, to fabricate evidence,
and to coerce these witnesses to testify against me. So
(19:49):
by the time I went to trial, you know, it
was pretty much guaranteed lights out.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Yeah, I mean it's pretty incredible when you think about, Again,
this is New York. You're a guy who's not the
typical defendant. You know, you hadn't really had a lot
of altercations with the police before, and yet they did
things that are so beyond the pale, including not handing
over a bloody shirt and hat that were found at
(20:16):
the crime scene, right, I mean, and then eventually claiming
that they were misplaced. I mean misplaced, that's a nice word.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
Yeah, that was just ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I mean, I have no words to explain their reasoning
and doing that, or how they explain why they did that.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
It's just it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Not only did they withhold exculpatory evidence, including the videotape
that they knew had a timestamp on it that would
have placed you at the police station at the time
that the crime was being committed, which is right there,
case closed done. That means they knew that you didn't
do it, that they withheld that. They intimidated your friend Eric, right,
(20:58):
who was in the bar.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, well, I'd have to just say he was not
my friend, but I didn't know who he was.
Speaker 5 (21:05):
Yeah, he was an associate.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I mean, he would have been a friend if he
was a nicer person, but I just wouldn't call him
a friend.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Okay, So they intimidated acquaintance of yours named Eric Freud,
into implicating you. And we know from whether way the
cop behaved towards you actually physically assaulting you, yeah, on
the street in front of the pizza place. We know
that there's a lot of credibility to that claim. And
then they also threatened the bouncer if he didn't implicate you, right,
(21:37):
so they I mean, I don't want to believe that
police behave like that. I grew up and I still
believe that. You know, Listen, most I think most police
are good. I think as a society we need police.
I'm not one of these people who's like an anarchist
or something, and I always say I'm not soft on crime.
I'm tough on injustice. Right. I believe we need to
have a system of laws, We need to have people
(21:57):
in place, police, prosecutors. Whole system has to function because
it has to keep society safe. But when it's turned
upside down, it's just it it's so deeply disturbing to
see what they can do, how they can grind somebody
like you up so ken now that you are a
practicing attorney, and we're going to get to that in
(22:17):
a few minutes because some of the stuff you're doing
now is so fascinating. Looking back on your trial, do
you feel that you were represented in an adequate manner?
Speaker 5 (22:27):
Well, I mean I don't.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
I don't and I hope I never represent someone myself
as an attorney. Now, the way I was represented at
trial by my attorney, then there was a lot of
problems there with the defense. At the same time, I
have to say to myself, well, how can a defense
truly be effective if all the evidence is being withheld
(22:55):
from the defense?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
It's really hard, you know. So yeah, I mean you
didn't have much of a chance. You would have needed
the Clarence Darrow or a modern day version be very
shack representing you to give yourself a fighting chance. Absolutely,
and that's clearly not what you had. You weren't a
rich guy, right, or you couldn't afford the dream team.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Oh, I was on financial aid going to community college
at that time, right, I could hardly even afford, to.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Put it politely, you were fucked, right, But well, then
you got to trial. It was already It basically was
a formality. They were they were gonna they had you,
They were going to get you. And that's exactly what
they did. You get convicted and sentenced to what seven
(23:49):
to fourteen years In person, I'm trying to imagine what
was going through your mind when that happened.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Well, like you had just said a few minutes ago,
in your America, this doesn't happen. This type of behavior
from police officers doesn't happen.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
And that's what I was thinking too, even.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
After my arrest and during my trial, you know, and
now all I keep thinking is, you know, there's no
way that the jury would convict me or this judge
will allow this even to get to a verdict based
on this evidence. And I know I'm innocent, and I
feel like, you know, that doesn't happen. You don't get
(24:29):
convicted of things you didn't do. Not in my America, right,
And the last thing I think in my mind is
that everyone would simply jump on board and push my
head under the water. That's the last thing I thought
would happen. And the whole time I was in prison,
I thought, surely someone would come with a helping hand
(24:50):
and see the injustice that has occurred here. But you
know that doesn't happen, you know, and you're stuck, always
hoping for the next level.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
When you're in prison.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
At first it's oh, you know, you get arrested, I'll
be released at the felony hearing. They'll see this was
a mistake, you know. But that doesn't happen, and the
jury will see and the judge will see, and maybe
even the prosecutor will see that I'm innocent. You know,
these are actually kind of naive thoughts.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Looking back, they were naive thoughts. I mean, they're idealistic thoughts.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, you really can't ignore that. Oftentimes police and prosecutors
have a motive to get a conviction, which doesn't always
equate with justice.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
No, and that's the reasonable doubt standard is something that
needs to be reinforced into everyone's head. There you have
to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In your case,
there was tons of reasonable doubt. Even though a huge
percentage of the evidence, and the most important evidence was
with hell, there was still reasonable doubt and you still
had a story to tell that that should have at
least put some one of two of the jurors in
(25:58):
a position to say I can't reasonably convict this guy.
Which prison did you get sent to?
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Well, initially, I'm in Westchester County Jail almost almost for
like a year there. It turns out that they apparently
they forgot me. That's what I was told. After I
was convicted, my bells revoked. I go to Westchester County Jail,
and everybody I see coming in after pleading guilty or convicted,
(26:25):
they're upstate within two weeks, and there I am eight
nine months later, and I didn't know what was going on.
So I actually called my mom and I said, can
you call the jail and find out what's going on.
It's supposed to be out of here to go up state,
Not like I was like, hey, let's go up state,
but in the county. It's pretty rough conditions Westchester County Jail.
(26:46):
I mean, basically don't get to see anybody or anything.
It's no sunlight. It's pretty tough. So she called and
she said, well, the state says they forgotcha, so they
didn't know, you know, whatever paperwork era. So I think
in July of ninety nine, I shipped upstate to Downstate
Correctional Facility, which is in Fishkill, New York. After my
(27:08):
mom called and I figured out that I was lingering
over there in the county jail for a better half
of a year.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
And that tells you something about just how bad jails are.
And I think it's important for people to realize that
you don't see the sunlight thinking about that. How insane
is it that you, an innocent man, is actually asking
can you please transfer me to it? Was that a
maximum security prison? It was, Yeah, so you attract to
transferred to a maximum security prison. So in prison, now
you're in this it even it sounds it just sounds
(27:36):
scary right downstate. It just sounds like.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
It was prison in general. It was very, very scary
and intimidating.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
How did you survive in this environment?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Well, the first thing I had to do was I guess,
observe what's going on and find out what I want
to be involved with. When I went upstate, or even
it started in the county jail, I realized that there's
a lot of folks there in prison, in jail in general,
who had or have drug problems, you know, and there's
(28:12):
no doubt that they continue to use drugs while in prison.
And there's another large group which tends to gamble all
the time. Some of them they'll talk to you with that,
you know, without strangling. You are are rippings about jaboget, right,
So you know, as a young, skinny, twenty two year
old that I was, you know, and they say, they
(28:32):
give some advice and they say, stay away from gambling
and drugs and you're gonna increase your chances of not
getting a shank in the back. And I thought, you know,
that really made sense. So I'm really not a gambler
to begin with, you know, And the most I ever
did back in high school was smoke some pots.
Speaker 5 (28:50):
So I thought, hey, I'm good.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
You know. I wasn't the type of guy who had
to prove myself. You know, that's not what I was
there for. I wasn't there to earn my stripes in prison.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
I was there because for things I didn't do.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
You know. It was not a big bad dude. And
I think I.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Have ability to make people laugh as well and feel
comfortable around me. So a lot of folks, a lot
of folks felt a closeness or ability to talk to me,
and that includes you know, some of the gang leaders,
some of the old timers. You know, these are big
time dudes in jail. They head up the gangs, and
you know, I would talk with them, and they seem
(29:36):
to be more you know, in control and calm. I
guess because of their you know, a long experience. They
were no longer going out doing wild things. Those were
the younger folks in the prison generally, who were like
stabbing up people or doing crazy stuff for no reason.
So I think I made I guess you could say,
friends or whatever with a few of them, and they
(29:58):
respected me.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
And you think they knew that you were innocent.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
No, to be honest with you, that's probably the last
thing you want to do going upstate because there are
folks there. They will pray, people prey on any whiff
of weakness, any whiff of weakness, and it's really intense
like that, and you just have to learn really quick
what people interpret as weakness because you will instantly get
(30:27):
preyed upon. Like, for example, I'm crossing my legs right here, right,
No big deal.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
You look at it, You see anything I.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Didn't notice until you've pointed it.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Well, go up there as twenty two years old and
you're crossing your legs and in prison. The environment is
it's so homophobic, it's unreal. It's on real, but that's
the standard and it's fully accepted. And that's just the
machismo the male line there. It's so homophobic. You cross
(30:58):
your legs or you do anything that's considered not macho,
and you're instantly labeled as weak or soft and or gay,
and then you're preyed upon as someone who can be
made fun of or stolen from, or a chump or
a punk or whatever. So you really have to watch
out for anything like that in the outside world, which
(31:21):
you just being yourself, you know, crossing my legs whatever.
I mean, I'm not gay, but it wouldn't matter. I'm
just saying any any indication. At the same time, you know,
there's people that sniff out newcomers and they'll try to
watch your body language, how you hold your shoulders, and
if there's a piece of weakness, they'll come up and
(31:41):
they'll try to be your friend or this or that.
You know, it might not find out for weeks later
that they're actually preying on you, praying on your weakness
to find out so that they can basically wrap you
up in a corner some place and demand your commissary.
And I've seen this happen to so many people. It's
rather sad. If that works out, then they go on
(32:03):
to the next level of intimidation, and they'll have people
call their family at home and say, hey, can you
send me some pack of cigarettes? Can you send me
some money? I'm in trouble here, and that money will
go to, you know, an extort or someone else under
threat of rape or or getting beat up, and then
oftentimes you know it does lead to rape, but the
(32:25):
person who you know who's victimizing there is just really
a really intimidated person.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
It's all so terrifying, the whole idea of the eggshells
you're walking on and having to learn a whole new,
twisted culture and programming, and it's got to stop. I mean,
being sent to prison shouldn't mean being tortured. There should
be some some dignity in this process. And that is
it's an affront to should be in front of everybody's
sensibility and everybody's sense of fairness so great, So here's
(32:55):
where things get really nuts. Kean on November seventheeenth, two
thousand and seven, during a dinner at your family's home,
your dad was talking about how much he missed you
and wish you were there and everything else, and then
a crazy, crazy thing happened. And I don't know how
easy this is for you to even talk about, but
I mean, do you want to tell what happened or
(33:16):
you want me to do it?
Speaker 5 (33:18):
Go ahead and then I'll fill in the blanks.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
So, having read the story, it was at that time
that your brother, I think his name is pronounced Kavon, correct, right,
your brother Kavon began weeping at the dinner table and
admitted that he, in fact was the culprit. And I'm
getting the chills as I'm saying this, right, and I'm
trying to picture what the hell was going through your parents'
minds at this point in time, right, I mean, here
(33:41):
they are talking about how much they miss you, as
any parent would, and now learning not only that in fact,
everything you've been saying all along was true, that you
were innocent, but that the actual perpetrator is sitting at
the dinner tab with him. It's your brother. Things start
to progress from there, right, Tell me how that things
start to move at that point, because a new hearing
of ultimately is held at which he's brought to the stand.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Well, just to give you, I guess an abbreviated step
by step timeline there.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
So after that evening, you know, my father.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
And brother, sisters. Eventually they came and saw me and
and told me what occurred, and I said, okay, well,
this is what we should do now. Eventually it led
to affidavits reciting his statements, the confession to stabbing the
two individuals being included in emotion what they call a
(34:36):
four forty motion in New York, which is what you
do after direct appeal to get facts off the record
in and that was filed and that resulted in a hearing.
Following the hearing, my conviction was vacated and a new
trial was ordered based on the confession of my brother,
as well as some other evidence which developed during the hearing.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
But wait a minute before before we get to that. Yeah,
I'm at a loss to imagine what that meeting was like.
Was it both of your parents that came to the
prison to tell you this news?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
No, my dad, Yeah, my mom was in Chicago at
that time.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
So your dad comes to the prison and tells you that,
in fact, your brother had admitted that it was he
who had committed this crime for which you have now
had eight years of your life stolen from you in
the most terrible way. I mean, what was that like.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Well, different people will have different reactions if they were
in my position, But for me, I can tell you
it was simply a feeling of relief.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
I just felt relieved.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Because now you could see light at the end of
the tunnel. Yes, well, that's logical. You didn't feel rage.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
It was relief for a while, did come. I mean
I did throughout the years that followed up, you know,
possibly up until just a few years ago. I don't
talk to my brother right now for variety reasons. Obviously
you know this is what happened here is one of them.
But in the beginning, for at least a few months,
(36:18):
it was just relief.
Speaker 5 (36:20):
It was just relief. You know.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
I was sitting there, stuck in prison, and I couldn't
I just couldn't figure out why I'm there or how,
you know, how the state could have so much power
over an individual's liberty with without without providing enough circuit breakers,
enough safety nets, you know, And I'm still.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
There, amazingly, as fate would have it. On September twenty third,
two thousand and eight, which was your thirty third birthday, right, Yeah,
you got the best birthday present you could imagine.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
I definitely did you want to talk about that? Well,
I was upstate, you know where was I at this time?
I think I was at a Sing Sing correctional facility,
and they called me down to white planes and I
walked out in front of the judge on September twenty three. Meanwhile,
I had a retrial ordered by this time, but it
was just a retrial, and I think the prosecutor stepped
(37:16):
up and just said we would not oppose defendant's ro
R release right now. And I heard that and I
was just like, I don't know, I'm lucky at him
lose consciousness at that time, just hearing those words.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
So the judge cut me loose, got me loose.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Right then in the court room, and I was in
this state issued clothing, and I'm still surrounded by these officers,
you know, like a sergeant, you know, a couple of
muscle bound officers all surrounding me with handcuffs. And I
couldn't believe it.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
So what happened? Did they take the handcuffs off right
then and there? But then you had to still change.
It was like you walk out into the daylight wearing
a correction of the uniform.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Right at they gave me what's called a court uniform,
which is like, I guess it's always tight jeans. They
always give somebody two sizes too small. But so it
was tight jeans like from the eighties.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
You know.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
So wait a minute, but you're in the courtroom, in
the courtroom, but you were still dressed in the.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
State issued clothing.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
Yeah, at what point did you change into these two
tight jeans?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Oh, right before I got into court, they say, here's
a beige sweatshirt and jeans. Here, you can put them
on so you don't have to go in front of
the judge in your prison greens.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Okay, so at that moment you almost collapse, right, but
you didn't, And then did the courtroom break out? That
moment must be etched in your memory permanently.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
I mean, well, if you take it back about one
minute before the judge said that, you have an officer
sitting down on my right side, an officer sitting down
on my left side, and an officer behind me.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
And as they walk you in, well.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
One guy you know who feels like he has like
the hand of a gorilla strength, you know, always the
case has a hand on your shoulder, and they're walking
you to the chair. Sit down here, look forward, don't
turn to the right, don't turn to the left. And
to be honest with you, they they mean that, don't
turn your head to the right. Don't turn your head
to the left. And I've seen people upstate or in
the prison facilities. You know, if you turn your head,
(39:18):
you get taken down. And it's not a pretty sight.
Speaker 5 (39:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
They don't just take you down, you get a beat down.
So I'm sitting in this chair and then have officer
like you can feel the breath on the back of
your neck of these officers just waiting to take down
a convicted violent felon for even moving your head to
the right. And that was how it was until the
(39:44):
judge said ro rd And so I turned to my
lawyer and I said, can I can I stand up?
Speaker 5 (39:53):
Can I'm free to go?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
And he says yes, and all the officers stand up,
and I get up and I say, you're on or
I can leave. She says yes, you can leave, and
I turn the officers and I say I can go out.
Those back doors. Yes, I had to ask the question,
like I must have just kept repeating it to every
single officer there before I even felt the courage to
(40:15):
take a step, because you gotta understand, for ten years
I had been under the gun, and if you make
any move unauthorized in a situation like that, you are
getting taken down and oftentimes you end up in the
hospital and there's no recourse for that. You know, you
(40:36):
turn your head when they say you didn't turn your head,
you disrespect a direct order. And you know the way
the law works as far as prisoners is concerned. Apparently
there you can get taken down and knee in the
back and you know, a foot on the face, I guess,
but you know the it was hard to believe, and
I really couldn't believe it. I asked, I think I
just repeated so many times, can I.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
Go out that door? Can I go out that door?
And I had to make sure.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Because I felt I felt it was unreal.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
And your parents and family in the courtroom, yeah.
Speaker 5 (41:08):
They started crying.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
So I actually walked over back of them in the
seat and I said, don't cry this, you know, this
is a beautiful moment.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
Should be happy.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
And so I tried to be strong for them, and
I tried myself not to cry, because you know, I
didn't want it to turn into one big weeping fest,
and you know, I wanted I wanted to see some
smiles on their face. You know, care about Tom, I
love them.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
And so.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
We got up and left, and I left with my
sisters and they took me to immediately, they took me
to the mall to get Bear jeans, and you know,
that was that was a very interesting moment as well,
because they're picking out jeans for me, you know, because
my style is ten years outdated, and I'm trying these
(41:53):
jeans on it and they're all tight, and I'm telling them,
I think this is really tight on my you know,
my butt, and they're like, listen, it should be a
lot tighter.
Speaker 5 (42:03):
We're letting you go with that. That's the style now.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
And so I was like okay, and I tried them on.
I walked out and took me a few weeks to
realize that that was probably just ordinary geens right there,
as opposed to nineteen ninety nine when everybody was wearing
more loose stuff. And so I got used to it,
still going ten years later.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
So you ultimately graduate college and go to law school,
not just any law school, NYU law school.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
So let me correct you on that one. So I
went to NYU underbred and I graduated with honors. For
law school, I went to Benjamin N. Cardozo Law School,
which is Yeshiva University's grad school. You know, that's also
the home of the Innocent Project, of course, and that
that's my that's my law school.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
Yeah, so you went to NYU. You went from Community College, Pleasantville,
waiting Tables, maximum security prison, unbelievab ordeal and saga to NYU,
one of the hardest schools in the world to get
into and graduate with honors, and then to Cardozo Law School,
(43:12):
which is the home of the Innis's Project, which is
again a top top law school. And then you pass
the bar, which is again I mean, that's an incredible
accomplishment for anyone, much less someone who if your brain
was spaghetti, nobody would it would be totally understandable. But
you managed to find this extra gear, this focus, this determination,
(43:33):
is drive, and accomplish these great things and pass the
bar and now you're in practice as a criminal defense
attorney in New York.
Speaker 5 (43:40):
That is correct.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Yes, incredible. It's an incredible, incredible story. And you've won
one lawsuit right already for yourself, for myself. Yeah, right,
And now you're representing clients, including one whose story has
kept me up at nights since you told me about it.
And I don't know if you're at liberty to talk
about that case. But what's really nuts to me is
(44:02):
that Keon now finds himself representing a case that is
eerily similar to his own.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
That is true, Absolutely, I see a lot of things
in common with my case there. It's part of the
reason which drives me to help this man out.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
Are you able to talk about that? I know it's
an ongoing case, so.
Speaker 5 (44:17):
It's an ongoing case.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
I think the case you're talking about I'm wearing a
T shirt right now, right, is that it?
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yes, So it's free free Darwin, just like it sounds
the ar Wyn broke r Oque dot com.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Yeah, that has a little information about the case and
what we're trying to do for Darwin.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
And so I mean, this case, it seems like, has
a very eerie resemblance to your own, you know, with
the difference being that in this case someone was it
was a stabbing but it was actually someone who was killed.
And Darwin has been in prison even longer than you were,
and it's still fighting for his freedom.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Yeah, he's going on quite a long time now, but
you know he's a strong individual, so hopefully he can
get through this and result will be something equitable and
just for him at least to gain his freedom again.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
And it's an important part of your story too, So
I want to talk about this because this is where
it's so important that people like you exist and are
able to spend the time and devote the brain power
and the energy and the inspiration, draw on your own
experience to help somebody who was wrongfully convicted and is
now serving a terrible sentence in a terrible place. And
(45:29):
this is a guy who was a young up and comer,
right entrepreneur, entrepreneur running a pet store, write his own
pet store at twenty four years old. I want to
bring attention to his case and use your story to
drive interest in Darwin's case and helpefully have him sitting
here in your seat sometime soon.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
I would love nothing more than to see that.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
For the people listening, what can they do to help Darwin?
Speaker 3 (45:55):
To help Darwin? Well, you know, we have to hire
a gang expert. It was exclusive to New York and
investigators and all these things cost money. And when you
go to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's like pushing a
rock up a mountain. It requires so much effort because
courts are really not receptive generally, so it requires a
(46:15):
lot of effort and a lot of money. So on
the website, if someone would like to donate, it's right there.
None of it will go to me. I don't charge
an hourly fee. I'm working pro bono and I will
continue to do so until I see justice done in
this case. But they can donate and it will go
toward a forensic pathologist, a gang expert, other experts that
(46:37):
are needed. Possibly paperwork that I acquire from the DA
or police or litigation you know, costs court fees. It'll
all go toward that. So that's one way that they
can help and it will go a long way.
Speaker 4 (46:50):
So in a nutshell, people please go to free Darwinroque
dot com and see how you can get involved and
help Kion in this remarkable effort that he's putting forth
on behalf of this innocent man who finds himself in
these strangely Twilight Zone esque circumstances that you found yourself
(47:12):
in twenty years ago or so. Ken, we have a
tradition here on Ronfuel Conviction, which is that I like
to turn the mic over to you, the star of
our show today, for any closing thoughts.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
Well, if folks are out there listening, obviously they expressed
an interest in the criminal justice system, are the injustice
that's occurring within that system. If you feel to help out,
there's always ways, and it doesn't always require giving money,
although every little bit does help as well. Reach out
(47:46):
to some folks and you know, if you're really interested
in helping the movement, because there's plenty of folks still
in jail for things they did not do. I think
it's epidemic, if not pandemic, in this country. And also
thing we're still trying to get a hold on how
many people actually get convicted of things they didn't do,
(48:06):
and I think it's I think it's much greater than
your average person anticipates. So don't be afraid to reach out.
Maybe volunteer some time. Hey, it could be a good thing.
You can donate to certain charities and give it a shot.
Might make it feel better.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
donor to the Ennocence Project and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
(48:51):
The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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