October 30, 2017 • 49 mins
In 1998, Kian Khatibi was 22 years old and living in Westchester County, NY when he was wrongfully convicted of stabbing two men during a bar fight and sentenced to 7 to 14 years in prison. After eventually discovering that his brother had committed the crime, Kian successfully fought for his release from prison in 2008 and was finally exonerated in 2012. Kian Khatibi graduated with honors from New York University in 2011 and passed the bar exam in New York after graduating from Cardozo School of Law in 2014. He established a law practice in New York City and is currently working to free other wrongfully convicted individuals.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I fell into the hands of corrupt detective. I was
not eve enough to believe that I would be able
to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,
that they would investigate adequately and so that I wouldn't
be going to prison because I was a good person.
I hadn't anything wrong. In the back of your mind,
you say, well, when we go to a hearing, we
(00:23):
go to court, the truth will come out. The prosecution
from day one knew I was innocent and let force
testimony go uncorrected from the lower courts all way up
to the United States Supreme Court. You have someone with
a badge with ultimate and really, in that moment, unchecked authority.
(00:44):
Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them
on TV, because it may just be a dirty d
ai that is trying to rise upward. This is wrongful conviction.
(01:16):
Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam Today, I
have very special guest, Kian Katib, who's going to tell
you a story that will well, it'll probably blow your
mind because it blows mine. Ken, Welcome to the show.
Thank you good to be here. So Keion. Ironically, I
guess you could say is from Pleasantville, New York, and
(01:37):
you grew up in sort of a nuclear family, sort
of normal childhood pretty much. Yeah, there was five of us,
all about a year year and a half apart, and
I'm I'm the number two. And the crux of your
story all revolves around a tragic incident that happened in
a bar in Pleasantville called lock Stock and Barrel and nine.
(02:01):
That's where it all started. Yes, that's where it all started.
Two people were stabbed in a fight in this bar,
and at the time that had happened, you were in
the police station, which is just sort of like, I mean,
you can't have much of a better alibi than that
that was hidden. But there's video that exists that proves
that you were in the police station at the time
of the stabbing, and yet they managed to convict you. Anyway,
(02:22):
So let's go back to that faithful day or that
faithful night, I should say, when you were in that bar,
What was going on? How did this fight happen? How
did you end up going to the police state. I mean,
it's all so nuts. Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a
good place to start. Well, I was inside of the
bar Lockstock and Barrel, in the village of Pleasantville, Westchester County,
(02:45):
New York. And I just got in there. I think
I was there maybe under ten minutes, and there was
a scuffle. There was a I guess a group of
young folks and everybody in there was in their twenties,
most likely college bar, and there was a scuffle and
I got pushed on the back and kind of like bumped,
and I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar.
(03:09):
A little shorter than me is document. He grabbed me
by the collar and starts lifting me up and I
put my hand to push him away. He's assaulting me,
harassing me at the very least. And at that time
I the bouncer was standing at the door, and he
turned around he saw some kind of scuffle. I'm not
sure exactly what was going on. I was just focusing
(03:31):
on the guy who had his arm around my collar
and squeezing my shirt, you know. And the bouncer grabbed
my shoulder and says, hey, you gotta get out of here.
So I left, you know, I obliged. I'm not going
to sit there and argue, hey, I deserve to stay,
I don't, you know. So I walk out and the
bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but you
(03:53):
were the closest guy to me, and I just had
to get a grip on the situation. So I left.
I want a seven eleven store to get some coffee.
And you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well,
all my friends are inside. I came with them. At
this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although
(04:14):
I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do
I get home? Uh? Do I go tell my friends?
And you know, we're everybody doesn't have a cell phone, no,
nothing like that. That's just not going on. So, you know,
maybe a few people at that time, if I recall correctly,
had what they called pages. Yeah, so I'm thinking what
(04:35):
do I do? So I start walking back toward the
bar and saying, maybe I can see someone outside, make
sure everyone my friends knew at least I was kicked
out and that I'm going home, or maybe they're leaving
too soon. I'll get her ride. So I started walking
back to the bar and um, there's a huge parking
lot on one of the sides of the lock Stock
(04:56):
and Barrel bar or pub whenever you call it, And
then I see a group there's altercation and there's yelling
and screaming, but I walk a little closer because I,
you know, I didn't think it involved me and didn't
at that time. It's also the way back to the
bar that I have to go, so I get a
little closer and it seems these guys are just like
(05:18):
arguing and screaming with each other some some dumb stuff.
In my mind, I'm like, oh, there's a couple of
drunk folks out here arguing, you know, has nothing to
do with me. And I go to walk past them
and one of the guy's points at me and says, hey,
there's the guy from from the bar. In my head,
I'm just like, oh my god, and I'm thinking, is
(05:39):
that one of the guys who had me by the
collar or one of his friends. I'm like, jeez, it
wasn't enough that I just got kicked out of the bar.
Now now now they're like, hey, that's him, Like so um.
I kind of steer around the group to get to
the sidewalk because I'm don't want anything to do with that,
and the guys still yelling and it looks like he
wanted to come after me or to hit the tone
(05:59):
of his voice. So, you know, and I'm a small guy,
you know. At that time, I think I weighed like
a dty five pounds at you know, five nine, so
that's probably as light as you can get. You know.
I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs
and everything. And you know, these guys are some there.
We're both actually football players. So it's very intimidating for me. Yeah,
(06:20):
and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like, this
is not a great night so far. But yeah, exactly exactly,
but it's about to get a lot worse. It's about
to get a lot worse. In fact, that was the
beginning of the next ten years of of downward spiral,
you know, until the light, so until the hard fought
light that is. So I managed to get past them
(06:41):
and past them right across the street as the train station.
I walked past them. I said, I'm out of here.
I'm going to the train station. And it's this downstairs
in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs, it's maybe like thirty steps
and um, you know, it's a big carve out and
it's kind of like, you know, a dip in the ground.
So it's like a big co chamber right there, because
(07:01):
there's you know, concrete walls all around here in this
down in this pit in the middle of Pleasantville. And
I started hearing all this yelling and screaming from the
bar and it's just echoing down there, and I'm just thinking,
what what is going on there? So I get I
get nervous a little because one I was just kicked
out of the bar to the guys were saying, hey,
(07:23):
there's that guy. So I'm like, you know, I just
didn't feel safe, Like what happens if one of them,
in their drunken stupor says, hey, I saw that guy
go down the train station steps. Let's go find them,
you know, And this this is what's going through my mind.
At least, you know, I think I thought it was
reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not
a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big person. So
(07:47):
I come back up the steps of the train station
and I just kind of positioned myself right next to
the police station door, which is on the other side
of the train station. And when I hear the train coming,
I'll walk down and grab the train. So I'm and
I'm laughing, but it's like, actually, all of this sounds
very rational to me. Actually, you know you're I mean,
(08:10):
that's you're going to go to the police station for protection.
At the time I thought it was too but you know,
in hindsight, I see that every step I made I
was was apparently, you know, a step toward the fatal
results which which occurred, and you couldn't have predicted that.
So you go to the police station. Now it's about, well,
we actually know because there's there's time stamps and stuff. Right,
(08:32):
we know you went to the police station at one
twelve in the morning, right, and then and then what happened.
I was outside waiting to listen to the train to
go back down just for safety reasons alsome to hear
tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking,
is that related to the fight that the folks get
into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are
(08:54):
they driving around looking for people? It's it's going to
be one of those like brawls between villages, you know,
because there's rivalries in in some of these towns, like
football rivalries or whatever, Hawthorne, west Lake. And I was thinking, uh,
maybe something like that's going on. I'm outside and I
hear these tire screations, and all of a sudden, I
hear these some it was women's voices, and it sounded
(09:17):
like they were screaming, like a horror film or something
like that. My heart just jumped out of me at
that time, and I ran into the police station and
there was a glass wall there in the desk officer
and she's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, well, listen,
I was just coming from down the road from you know,
the seven eleven, walking back past the lock stock and barrel,
(09:41):
and um, there was some guys that were after me,
and I'm a little intimidated to wait down here by
the train station alone. And I just worried that they
might come and find me, and I guess fight me.
That's what's going through my mind. At least. I asked
if I could get a ride to uh police station
next door, because in Westchester the train stations are probably
(10:03):
like a mile apart, you know. And the officer said, yeah,
come here here some water. Sure I can give you
a ride to the Hawthorn train station, no problem, give
me a second. And so I sat down. I'm I'm
drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I feel like,
you know, that's it. I did what I had to
do to take care of myself, at least for that moment.
(10:24):
I'll be able to get a ride to the train station,
go home, and and that'll be that about it. I
guess less than a minute around around that time goes
by in the officer comes back around to me and says, hey, listen,
I can give you a ride, but I've got to
go run and answer this call. And I don't know
what time I'm coming back, so I can give you
(10:46):
a ride, but you have to wait, and I have
no idea what I'm coming back. So I said, okay,
well thanks, and then he just like gunned it out
the door. So I'm sitting there and I finished my water,
and I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my
ride and I do have to get home, So I
get up and I leave, and you know, eventually I
find my way home that night, And I thought that
(11:09):
was the end of it. When did you find out
what actually happened that night at the bar, Because they
turned out to be a lot more than what you thought. Right,
A couple of people were stabbed. Well, Pleasantville is a
small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking about it the next day, Okay,
so yeah, so the word gets around. You find out
that there were a couple of people stabbed in the
(11:30):
bar that as it turns out, they were so drunk
that didn't even realize they had been stabbed until they
came out. But one guy was in the hospital for
a couple of weeks, so it's a pretty a pretty
serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops are trying
to figure out who did it right exactly, and how
the hell did they land on you when you were
in the police station at the time of the stabbing.
Let's talk about this. How did you end up getting
(11:50):
convicted because most of the witnesses said you weren't there. Well,
I guess, you know, it's kind of tortuous to explain
how we got from A to B, but I'll give
it my best shot. So there was about two weeks
that went by. In the interim, I'm just getting all
these rumors, you know, and friends are talking about folks
(12:10):
getting stabbed this, and that the victims were found actually
down the block in front of the Bank of New
York and another bar, you know, but I kind of
put some things together and say, oh, that probably had
something to do with the altercation that was at lock
Stock and Barrel. And on January, I'm in Pleasantville, down
(12:33):
by the pizzeria. You know. My mom still lived there
at the time, as well as brothers and sisters and
a detective, Detective Mazie of the Pleasantville Police Department. I
guess he catches wind that I'm there, you know, and
it's I'm actually on the same block as the police department.
And out of the blue, he approaches me. And you know,
(12:54):
he's a real imposing guy. He probably weighed at least
two hundred pounds and I think he's close to six ft.
And he approaches me and he says, hey, hey, Keian,
come here, you know. And I walk over him and
he says, you come with me right now. You talk
to me what happened a couple of weeks ago. And
I said, well, tell me what you're talking about. I
(13:15):
don't know. He goes on about Saturday night, this and that.
I told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you
right now, but here's my card if you want to,
you know, calm down. And we'll make an appointment. I'll
come in and speak with you, but I have other
things to do right now. You know, I have a job.
I work evenings as a waiter. And he got so
piste off, like the anger in his face it was,
(13:38):
it was just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says,
you don't want to talk to me, then all right,
f you, and he jams his finger into my notes
and it like stung me. And I'm just in shock
right there, and I'm standing there, frozen, and I don't
know what to do, Like what's next? You know, it's
(14:00):
he gonna like drag me away? Is he gonna like
take me into a van? And I don't. I don't
know all this stuff. I'm like, you know, I'm at
a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away. I
stand there for a minute and then I walk away.
When I go home, art go to work, my day
goes on. I I contemplate calling him and make an appointment,
(14:23):
but I'm but I'm not sure. I don't. I don't
want to go and face more of that hostility, that's
for sure. Then, UM I think about two weeks go by,
and um, a couple of my friends call me up
or or tell me. I don't recall exactly when I
but when I see them or hear from them, they say, hey,
the police are out with a warrant for your arrest.
(14:43):
And I said, all right, you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah,
they came. They showed me the warrant and they said
they're looking for you. And I said, did you immediately
think that it was for the stabbings or did you think, like,
what the hell could they possibly be looking for me for? Well,
that's the only thing I could put my finger on.
It's not like I was out there doing all sorts
of stuff where they you weren't like a master criminal. No, okay,
(15:07):
So okay, So now they've got this warrant for your arrest.
Now what happens? Well, I call a lawyer and I
tell him a story. I said, you know, my friends
telling me there's a warrant for my arrest, and the
lawyers like, well, did you see it? And I was like,
well no, because you know then I probably would have
been arrested by the time I saw it. But I'd
like to know, how do we handle this? You know,
do I turn myself in. Do we call them, did
they come pick me up? And so we arranged um
(15:29):
a date for me to turn myself in on the warrant.
So that's what we did. And I think it was
February four when it turned myself in. I was I
was arrested. I was held in um County jail for
about a week without bail until I had a felony
hearing in Pleasantville. I want to the felony hearing, there
(15:52):
was two victims. One of the victims is testifying about
how he uh thinks that I stabbed him this and that,
and it was held over for indictment. I was indicted.
I went to trial and I was convicted. Of course,
you know, there's a lot more in between to the story,
but that that's uh, that's the timeline there. But both
of the victims, it was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes,
(16:15):
And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the time.
They were sad. They were so heavily intoxicated that they
didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came along
and lifted up their shirt and said, how come there's
all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk do
you have to be to not know you were stabbed? Well, Boyer,
according to his hospital record, he was His blood alcohol
content B a C was greater than point three and
(16:39):
that's all it registered on on his blood test. And
I think the way the hospital had it set up,
if you're greater than point three, I mean that was
that was all they showed. You know, they'll show point
zero eight point one, but greater than point three was
was the max. They don't go higher and that and
that's a state where you can um according to the consensus,
like you can black out, you whose consciousness you potentially
(17:02):
you could die from alcohol poisoning at that level. Let's
talk it for a second. I think for drunk driving
the limit is point zero eight, right, So when you're
at point three, that means you're about four times the
legal limit for driving, and you're getting to the point where, yes,
you can have acute alcohol poisoning and you can die.
And it's interesting because at trial, neither one of them
(17:24):
was able to identify you as the assailant, right, yeah,
I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them or
they saw me stabbed them, but they made conclusions that
it must have been me that stabbed them, and you know,
and that the jury was allowed to hear that and that,
and that they believed I stabbed them. That was a
real shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter
(17:47):
or to show the jury. Why Why did these victims
believe that I stabbed them when in fact I didn't.
Well we know now that there are a number of reasons.
The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know
lead to wrong flight identifications in so many cases. Right,
(18:07):
the police showed a photo lineup with you in it
and showed it to the victims and told them that
the actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a
number of things they did that are that are at
a minimum bad police work. And I think that's one
of the factors that happened in your case that led
to you being identified as as the sailing even though
(18:29):
you weren't even there. That's one of the main factors. Yes,
so you're a trial. How long did it take you
to get to trial? It took a little over one year,
so you're in jail the whole time I actually bailed out.
I was out on five thousand dollars bail, so before trial,
I was out on bail, and during trial, I was
I guess, you know, lucky enough to to be out
(18:49):
on bail. It's interesting that they set bail at five
thousand dollars, right, That would indicate to me that the
judge who set the bail was not very concerned that
you were going to be around stabbing anybody, because if
they were, they certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand.
Mean that's almost like a misdemeanor type of bail. Yeah, Well,
when we went to the felony hearing, I think the
(19:10):
judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses in
the case and set the bail at five thousand, and
I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing occurred
in February of and the trial occurred in February of nine,
so there was a whole year there to prepare and
you know, fix up the weaknesses. And I guess those
(19:33):
are nice words to use, because the real words I
should use is they had a whole year to destroy evidence,
to suppress evidence, to fabricate evidence, and to coerce these
witnesses to testify against me. So by the time I
went to trial, you know, it was pretty much guaranteed
lights out. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty incredible when you
(19:57):
think about, again, this is New York. You're a guy
who's not the typical defendant, you know, you you hadn't
really had a lot of altercations with the police before,
and yet they did things that are so beyond the pale,
including not handing over a bloody shirt and hat that
were found at the crime scene, right, I mean, and
(20:19):
then eventually claiming that they were misplaced. I mean misplaced,
that's a nice word. Yeah, that was That was just ridiculous.
I mean, I have no words to explain their reasoning
and doing that, or or how they explain why they
did that. It's just it's ridiculous. Not only did they
withhold exculpatory evidence, including the videotape that they knew had
(20:41):
a time stamp on it that would have placed you
at the police station at the time that the crime
was being committed, which is right there, case closed done.
That means they knew that you didn't do it, that
they withheld that, they intimidated your friend Eric, right, who
was in the bar. Yeah, well, I'd have to just
say he was he was not my friend, but I
(21:04):
didn't know who he was. Yeah, he was an associate.
I mean he he would have been a friend if
he was a a nicer person. Put I just wouldn't
call him a friend. Okay. So they intimidated the acquaintance
of yours named Eric Freud into implicating you. And we
know from either way the cop behaved towards you, actually
(21:25):
physically assaulting you on the street in front of the
pizza place. We know that there's a lot of credibility
to that claim. And then they also threatened the bouncer
if he didn't implicate you, right, so they I mean,
I don't want to believe that police behave like that.
I grew up and I still believe that. You know, listen,
most I think most police are good. I think as
(21:46):
a society we need police. I'm not one of these
people who's like an anarchist or something like. And I
always say I'm not soft on crime. I'm tough on injustice. Right.
I believe we need to have a system of laws.
We need to have people in place, police, prosecutors. The
old system has to function because it has to keep
society safe. But when it's turned upside down, it's just
it's it's so deeply disturbing to see what they can do,
(22:11):
how they can grind somebody like you up. So, Kiah,
now that you are a practicing attorney, and we're gonna
get to that in a few minutes, because some of
the stuff you're doing now is so fascinating. Looking back
on your trial, do you feel that you were represented
in an adequate manner? Well, I mean I don't. I
don't and I hope I never represent someone myself as
(22:34):
an attorney. Now, the way I was represented at trial
by my attorney, then there was a lot of problems
there with the defense. At the same time, I have
to say to myself, well, how can a defense truly
be effective if all the evidence is being withheld from
(22:55):
the defense's You know, yeah, I mean you didn't have
much of a chance. He would have needed the Clarence
Darrow or the modern day version be Barry Schecked representing
you to give yourself a fighting chance, and that's clearly
not what you had. You weren't a rich guy, right,
You couldn't afford the dream Team. I was on financial
aid going to community college at that time. I had
(23:18):
to put it politely, you were fucked, right, But then
you got to trial, it was already it basically was
a formality. They were they were gonna they had you,
they were gonna get you. And that's exactly what they did.
(23:43):
You get convicted and sentenced to what seven to fourteen years.
I'm trying to imagine what was going through your mind
when that happened. Well, like you had just said a
few minutes ago, in your America, this doesn't happen. This
type of behavior from police officers doesn't happen. And that's
(24:06):
what I was thinking too, even after my arrest and
during my trial, you know, and all I keep thinking is,
you know, there's no way that the jury would convict me,
or this judge will allow this even to get to
a verdict based on this evidence. And I know I'm innocent,
(24:26):
and I feel like, you know, that doesn't happen. You
don't get convicted of things you didn't do. Not in
my America, right, And the last thing I think in
my mind is that everyone would simply jump on board
and push my head under the water. That's the last
thing I thought would happen. And the whole time I
(24:47):
was in prison, I thought, surely someone come with a
helping hand and see see the injustice that has occurred here.
But you know that that doesn't happen, you know, and
you're stuck, always hoping for the next level. When you're
in prison. At first it's oh, you know, you get arrested,
I'll be released at the felony hearing. They'll see this
(25:07):
was a mistake, you know. But that doesn't happen, and
the jury will see and the judge will see, and
maybe even the prosecutor will see that I'm innocent. You know,
these are actually kind of naive thoughts looking back, they
were naive thoughts. I mean, they're they're idealistic thoughts. Yeah,
you really can't ignore that. Oftentimes police and prosecutors have
a motive to get a conviction, which doesn't always equate
(25:32):
with justice. No, and that's the reasonable doubt standard is
something that needs to be reinforced into everyone's head. There
you have to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In
your case, there was tons of reasonable doubt. Even though
a huge percentage of the evidence, and the most important
evidence was with hell, there was still reasonable doubt and
you still had a story to tell that that should
(25:54):
have at least put some one of two of the
jurors in a position to say, I can't it reasonably
convict this guy. Which prison did you get sent to? Well, initially,
I mean Westchester County Jail, almost almost for like a
year there. It turns out that they apparently they forgot me.
(26:14):
That's what I was told. After I was convicted, my
bells revoked. I go to Westchester County Jail, and everybody,
um I see coming in after pleading guilty or convicted
their upstate within two weeks. And there I am eight
nine months later, and I didn't know what was going on.
So I actually called my mom and I said, can
you call the jail and find out what's going on.
(26:37):
It's supposed to be out of here to go upstate.
Not like I was like, hey, let's go up state,
but in the county. It's pretty rough conditions Westchester County Jail.
I mean basically don't get to see anybody or anything.
It's no sunlight. It's pretty tough. So she called and
she said, well, the state says they forgot you here,
so they don't they didn't know, you know, whatever paperwork error.
(26:59):
So I think in July I shipped up state to
Downstaate Correctional Facility, which is in Fishkill, New York. After
my mom called and I figured out that I was
lingering over there in the county jail for a better
half of a year. And that tells you something about
just how bad jails are. And I think it's important
for people to realize that you don't see the sunlight
(27:20):
thinking about that. How insane is it that you, an
innocent man, is actually asking can you please transfer me
to it? Was that a maximum security prison? Yeah, so
you're attracted transferred to a maximum security prison. So in
prison now you're you're in this it even it sounds
it just sounds scary right downstairs, just sounds like it
(27:41):
was prison in general was it was very, very scary
and intimidating. How did you survive in this environment? Well,
the first thing I had to do was I guess,
observe what's going on and find out what what I
want to be involved with. So when I went up state,
(28:01):
or even it started in the county jail, I realized
that there's a lot of folks there in prison, in
jail in general, who had or have drug problems and all.
And there's no doubt that they continue to use drugs
while in prison. And there's another large group which tends
to gamble all the time. Some of them they'll talk
(28:22):
to you, you know, without strangling. You are are rippons
with about japage, right, So you know as a young,
skinny twenty two year old that I was, and they'd say,
they give some advice and they say, stay away from
gambling and drugs and you're going to increase your chances
of not getting a shank in the back. And I thought,
(28:42):
you know, that really made sense. So I'm really not
a gambler to begin with, you know, And the most
I ever did back in high school was sunk some pots.
So I thought, hey, I'm good. You know, I wasn't
the type of guy who had proved myself. You know,
that's not what I was there for. I wasn't there
to earn my stripes in prison. You know. I was
(29:04):
there because for things I didn't do. You know, I
was not a big bad dude, and I think I am.
I have ability to make people laugh as well and
feel comfortable around me. So a lot of folks, a
lot of folks felt a closeness or ability to talk
(29:25):
to me, and that includes you know some of the
gang leaders, some of the old timers. You know, these
are big time dudes in jail. They head up the
gangs and and you know, I would talk with them,
and they seem to be more you know, in control
and calm. I guess because of their you know, a
long experience. They were no longer going out doing wild things.
(29:45):
Those were the younger folks in the prison generally, who
are like stabbing up people or are doing crazy stuff
for no reason. So I think I made I guess
you could say, friends or whatever with with a few
of them, and they respected me and think they knew
that you were innocent. No, to be honest with you,
that's probably the last thing you want to do going
(30:07):
up state because there are folks there. They will pray,
people prey on any whiff of weakness, any whiff of weakness,
and it's really intense like that, and you just have
to learn really quick what people interpret as weakness, because
you will instantly get preyed upon. Like, for example, crossing
(30:31):
my legs right here, right, No big deal. You look
at it, you see anything go up there. It's twenty
two years old and you're crossing your legs and in prison.
The environment is it's so homophobic, it's unreal. It's on real,
but that's the standard and it's fully accepted. And that's
(30:54):
just the machismo the male line there. It's so homophobic.
You cross your legs, are you do anything that's considered
not macho, and you're instantly labeled as weak or soft
and or gay, and then you're preyed upon as someone
who can be made fun of, our stolen from or
(31:14):
a chump or a punk or whatever. So you really
have to watch out for anything like that in the
outside world, which you're just being yourself, you know, crossing
my legs whatever. I mean, I'm not gay, but it
wouldn't matter. I'm just saying any any indication. At the
same time, you know, there's people that that sniff out
newcomers and they'll try to watch your body language, how
(31:37):
you hold your shoulders, and if and if there's a
piece of weakness, they'll come up and they'll try to
be your friend or this or that. You know, it
might not find out for weeks later that they're actually
preying on you, praying on your weakness to find out
so that they can basically wrap you up in a
corner someplace and demand your commissary. And I've seen this
(31:58):
happen to so many people. It's rather sad. If that
works out, then they go on to the next level
of intimidation and they'll they'll have people call their family
at home and say, hey, can you send me some
pack of cigarettes? Can you send me some money? I'm
in trouble here, and that money will go to, you know,
an extort or someone else under threat of rape or
(32:18):
or getting beat up, and and and then oftentimes you
know it does lead to rape. But the person who
you know, who's victimizing there is is just really a
real intimidated person. It's also terrifying the whole idea of
the eggshells you're walking on and having to learn a
whole new, twisted culture and programming. And it's got to stop.
(32:39):
I mean, being sent to prison shouldn't mean being tortured.
There should be some some dignity in this process, and
that is it's an affront. Two should be a front
to everybody's sensibility and everybody's sense of fairness. So so
here's where things get really nuts. Kean on November seven teen,
(33:00):
two thousand and seven, during a dinner at your family's home.
Your dad was talking about how much he missed you
and wish you were there and everything else, and then
a crazy, crazy thing happened. And I don't know how
easy this is for you to even talk about, but
I mean, do you want to tell what happened or
you want me to do it? Go ahead and then
I'll fill in the blanks. So, having read the story,
(33:22):
it was at that time that your brother, I think
his name is pronounced Cavan, right, your brother Cavan, began
weeping at the dinner table and admitted that he, in
fact was the culprit. And I'm getting the chills as
I'm saying this, and I'm trying to picture what the
hell was going through your parents minds at this point
in time, right, I mean, here they are talking about
(33:42):
how much they miss you, as any parent would, and
now learning not only that in fact, everything you've been
saying all along was true, that you were innocent, but
that the actual perpetrator is sitting at the dinner table
with them, is your brother. Things start to progress from there, right,
tell me how that things start to move at that point,
because a new hearing of ultimately is held at which
(34:03):
he's brought to the stand. Well, just to give you,
I guess an abbreviated step by step timeline there. So
after that um evening, you know, my father and brother, sisters.
Eventually they came and saw me and UH and told
me what occurred, and I said, okay, well this is
what we should do now. Eventually it led to affidavits
(34:27):
reciting his statements, the confession to stabbing the two individuals
being included an emotion what they call UH for fort
emotion in New York, which is UH what you do
after direct appeal to get facts off the record in
and that was filed and that resulted in a hearing.
Following the hearing, my conviction was vacated and a new
(34:49):
trial was ordered based on the confession of my brother,
as well as some other evidence which developed during the hearing.
But wait minute, be before we get to that. I'm
at a loss to imagine what that meeting was like.
Was it both of your parents that came to the
prison to tell you this news? No, my dad, Yeah,
(35:11):
my mom was in Chicago at that time. So your
dad comes to the prison and tells you that, in fact,
your brother had admitted that it was it was he
who had committed this crime for which you have now
had eight years of your life stolen from you in
the most terrible way. I mean, what was that like? Um, well,
(35:36):
different people will have different reactions if they were in
my position. But for me, I can tell you it
was simply a feeling of relief. I just felt relieved
because now you could see light at the end of
the tunnel. Well, that's that's logical. You didn't feel rage.
(35:57):
It was relief for a while. That ray did come.
I mean I I did throughout the years that followed. Um,
you know, possibly up until just a few years ago.
All right, don't talk to my brother right now. For
variety reasons. Obviously, you know, there's what happened here is
one of them. But um, in the beginning, for at
(36:17):
least a few months, it was just relief. It was
just relief. You know, I was sitting there, stuck in prison,
and and I couldn't I just couldn't figure out why
I am there? How you know, how the state could
have so much power over an individual's liberty with with
without without providing enough circuit breakers, enough safety nets, you know,
(36:40):
And I'm still there, amazingly as as fate would have
it on septemberd and eight, which was your thirty third birthday. Right,
You've got the best birthday present you could imagine. I
definitely did you want to talk about that? Well? I
was upstate, you know, where was I at this time? Hime?
I think I was at Sing Sing Correctional facility. And
(37:03):
they called me down to White Plains and I walked
out in front of the judge on September. Meanwhile, I
had a retrial ordered by this time, but it was
just a retrial, and I think the prosecutor stepped up
and just said we would not oppose defendant's r O
R release right now. And I heard that, and I
(37:26):
was just like, I don't know, I'm luck atting lose
consciousness at that time, just just hearing those words. So
the judge caught me loose, caught me loose right then
in the court room, and I was in this state
issued clothing and I and I'm still surrounded by these officers,
you know, like a sergeant, you know, a couple muscle
(37:46):
bound officers and all surrounding me with handcuffs and and
I couldn't believe it. So what happened? Did they take
the handcuffs off right then and there. But then you
had to still change. It wasn't like you walk out
into the daylight wearing a correction uh uniform. Right of
the they gave me what's called the court uniform, which
is like, I guess, it's always tight jeans. They always
(38:07):
give somebody two sides is too small. But it was
tight jeans like from the eighties. You know. So wait
a bit, but you're in the courtroom, in the room,
but you were still dressed in the state issued clothing. Now,
at what point did you change into these tight jeans? Oh,
right before I got into court, they say, here's a
beige sweatshirt and jeans here, you can put them on
(38:29):
so you don't have to go in front of the
judge in your prison greens. Okay, So at that moment
you almost collapse, right, but you didn't, And then did
the courtroom break out? That moment must be etched in
your memory permanently. I mean, well, if you take it
back about one minute before the judge said that, you
have an officer sitting down on my right side, an
(38:50):
officer sitting down on my left side, and an officer
behind me. And as they walk you in. Well, one
guy you know who feels like he has like the
hand of a of a guerrilla strength. You know, it's
always the case as a hand on your shoulder and
they're walking you to the chair. Sit down here, look forward,
don't turn to the right, don't turn to the left.
And to be honest with you, they mean that, don't
(39:12):
turn your head to the right. Don't turn your head
to the left. And I've seen people upstate or in
the prison facilities. You know, if you turn your head,
you you get taken down. And it's not a pretty sight.
You know. They don't just take you down, you you
get a beat down. So I'm sitting in this chair
and then have officer like you can feel the breath
on the back of your neck of these officers just
(39:32):
waiting two take down a convicted violent felon for even
moving your head to the right. And that was how
it was until the judge said R O RT and
I So I turned to my lawyer and I said,
can I can I stand up? Can I'm free to go?
(39:54):
And he says yes, and all the officers stand up
and I get up and I say, you're on or
I can leave. She says yes, you can leave. And
I turned the officers and I say, I can go
off those back doors. Yes. I had to ask the question,
like I must have just kept repeating it to every
single officer there before I even felt the courage to
(40:15):
take a step, because you gotta understand, for ten years
I had been under the gun, and if you make
any move unauthorized in a situation like that, you are
getting taken down and oftentimes you end up in the hospital.
And and there's no recourse for that. You know, you
(40:36):
turn your head when they say you didn't turn your head,
you disrespected direct order, and uh, you know the way
the law works as far as prisoners is concerned. Apparently
there you can get taken down and a knee in
the back and you know, a foot on the face,
I guess, but you know that it was hard to
believe and I and I and I really couldn't believe it.
I asked, I think I just repeated so many times,
(40:57):
can I go out that door? Kind of go out
that door? And I had to make sure because I felt,
I felt it was unreal. And were your parents and
family in the courtroom, Yeah, they started crying. So I
actually walked over back at them in the seat, and
I said, don't cry this, you know, this is a
beautiful moment. Should be happy. And so I tried to
be strong for them, and I tried myself not to
(41:20):
cry because you know, I didn't want it to turn
into one big weeping fest. And you know, I wanted
I wanted to see some smiles on their face, you know,
care about to my love then. And so we got
up and left, and I left with my sisters and
they took me to immediately, they took me to the
mall to get bear jeans, and you know, that was
(41:43):
that was a very interesting moment as well, because they're
picking out jeans for me, you know, because my style
is ten years outdated, and I'm trying these jeans on
and they're all tight, and I'm telling them, I think
this is really tight on my you know, my butt,
and they're like, listen, it should be a lot tighter.
(42:03):
We're letting you go with that. That's the style now.
And so I was like okay, and I tried them on.
I walked out and took me a few weeks to
realize that that was probably just ordinary jeans right there,
as opposed to when everybody was wearing more loose stuff,
and so I got used to it, still going ten
(42:24):
years later. So you ultimately graduate college and go to
law school, not just any law school, n yucho, so
let me correct you on that one. So I went
to n y U undergrad and I graduated with honors.
For law school, I went to Benjamin and Cardozo Law School,
(42:44):
which is Yeshiva University's grad school. You know, that's also
the home of the Innocent Project, and that that's my
that's my law school. So you went to n y U.
He went from Community College, Pleasantville, Waiting Tables, maximum security prison,
unbelievable ordeal and Saga two n YU one of the
(43:05):
hardest schools in the world to get into and graduate
with honors, and then to Cardoza Law School, which is
the home of the Innisis Project, which is again a
top top law school. And then you passed the bar,
which is again I mean, that's an incredible accomplishment for anyone,
much less someone who if your brain was was spaghetti,
(43:26):
nobody would it would be totally understandable. But you managed
to find this extra gear, this focus, this determination, is
drive and accomplish these great things that passed the bar,
and now you're in practice as a criminal defense attorney
in New York. Incredible, it's incredible, incredible story. And you've
won one lawsuit right already, for yourself, for myself, right
(43:49):
and now you're representing clients, including one whose story has
kept me up at night since you told me about it.
And I don't know if you're at liberty to talk
about the case. But what's what's really nuts to me
is that Kian now finds himself representing a case that
is eerily similar to his own. That is true. Absolutely,
I see a lot of things in common with my
(44:11):
case there. It's part of the reason why strives me
to help this man out. Are you able to talk
about that? I know it's an ongoing case, So it's
an ongoing case. I think the case you're talking about
I'm wearing a T shirt right now, right? Is that it? Yes?
So it's free f R E Darwin just like it
sounds the A R W I N roke r o
q U E dot com. Yeah, and has a little
(44:31):
information about the case and what we're trying to do
for for Darwin. And so I mean, this case it
seems like has a very eerie resemblance to your own,
you know, with the difference being that in this case
someone was it was a stabbing, but it was actually
someone who was killed. And Darwin has been in prison
even longer than you were, and it's still fighting for
(44:52):
his freedom. Yeah, he's going on quite a long time now,
but you know he's a strong individual. So hopefully he
can get through this and and we're sol it will
be something equitable and just for him at least to
gain his freedom again. And it's an important part of
your story too, So I want to talk about this
because this is where it's so important that people like
you exist and are able to spend the time and
(45:14):
devote the brain power and the energy and the inspiration
draw on your own experience to help somebody who was
wrongfully convicted and is now serving a terrible sentence in
a terrible place. And this is a guy who was
a young up and comer, right entrepreneur, running a pet
(45:35):
store right his own pet store, at twenty four years old.
I want to bring attention to his case and use
your story to drive interest in Darwin's case and helpfully
have him sitting here in your seat sometimes soon I
would love nothing more than to see that. For the
people listening, what can they do to help Darwin. To
(45:55):
help Darwin, well, you know, we have to hire a
gang expert. It was exclusive to New York and investigators
and all these things cost money. And when you go
to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's like pushing a rock
up a mountain. It requires so much effort because courts
are really not receptive generally, so it cards a lot
(46:15):
of effort and a lot of money. So on the website,
if someone would like to donate, it's right there. None
of it will go to me. I don't charge an
hour leafee, I'm I'm working pro bono and I will
continue to do so until I see justice done in
this case. But they can donate and it will go
toward a forensic pathologist, a gang expert, other experts that
(46:37):
are needed. Possibly paperwork that I acquire from the from
the d A or police or litigation you know, costs
court fees. It'll go toward that. So that's one way
that they can help and it will go a long way.
So in the nutshell, people please go to free Darwin
Rope dot com and see how you can get involved.
(46:58):
And help keyon in this remarkable effort that he's putting
forth on behalf of this innocent man who finds himself
in these strangely Twilight Zone esque circumstances that you found
yourself in twenty years ago or so. Ken, We have
a tradition here on wrongful conviction, which is that I
(47:19):
like to turn the mic over to you, the star
of our show today, for any closing thoughts. Well, if
folks are out there listening, obviously they expressed an interest
in the criminal justice system, are the injustice that's occurring
within that system. If you feel to help out, there's
always ways, and it doesn't always require giving money, although
(47:43):
every little bit does help as well. Reach out to
some folks and uh, if you know, if you're really
interested in and helping the movement, because there's plenty of
folks still in jail for things they did not do.
I think it's epidemic, if not pandemic, in this country.
And also thing we're still trying to get a hold
on how many people actually get convicted of things they
(48:06):
didn't do, and I think it's I think it's much
greater than then your average person anticipates. So don't be
afraid to reach out. Maybe volunteers some time. Hey, it
could be a good thing. You can donate to certain
charities and give it a shot. Might make you feel better.
(48:28):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
(48:51):
The music on the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast.
Rnful Conviction with Jason flam is a production Lava for
Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
I fell into the hands of corrupt detective. I was
not eve enough to believe that I would be able
to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,
that they would investigate adequately and so that I wouldn't
be going to prison because I was a good person.
I hadn't anything wrong. In the back of your mind,
you say, well, when we go to a hearing, we
(00:23):
go to court, the truth will come out. The prosecution
from day one knew I was innocent and let force
testimony go uncorrected from the lower courts all way up
to the United States Supreme Court. You have someone with
a badge with ultimate and really, in that moment, unchecked authority.
(00:44):
Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them
on TV, because it may just be a dirty d
ai that is trying to rise upward. This is wrongful conviction.
(01:16):
Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam Today, I
have very special guest, Kian Katib, who's going to tell
you a story that will well, it'll probably blow your
mind because it blows mine. Ken, Welcome to the show.
Thank you good to be here. So Keion. Ironically, I
guess you could say is from Pleasantville, New York, and
(01:37):
you grew up in sort of a nuclear family, sort
of normal childhood pretty much. Yeah, there was five of us,
all about a year year and a half apart, and
I'm I'm the number two. And the crux of your
story all revolves around a tragic incident that happened in
a bar in Pleasantville called lock Stock and Barrel and nine.
(02:01):
That's where it all started. Yes, that's where it all started.
Two people were stabbed in a fight in this bar,
and at the time that had happened, you were in
the police station, which is just sort of like, I mean,
you can't have much of a better alibi than that
that was hidden. But there's video that exists that proves
that you were in the police station at the time
of the stabbing, and yet they managed to convict you. Anyway,
(02:22):
So let's go back to that faithful day or that
faithful night, I should say, when you were in that bar,
What was going on? How did this fight happen? How
did you end up going to the police state. I mean,
it's all so nuts. Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a
good place to start. Well, I was inside of the
bar Lockstock and Barrel, in the village of Pleasantville, Westchester County,
(02:45):
New York. And I just got in there. I think
I was there maybe under ten minutes, and there was
a scuffle. There was a I guess a group of
young folks and everybody in there was in their twenties,
most likely college bar, and there was a scuffle and
I got pushed on the back and kind of like bumped,
and I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar.
(03:09):
A little shorter than me is document. He grabbed me
by the collar and starts lifting me up and I
put my hand to push him away. He's assaulting me,
harassing me at the very least. And at that time
I the bouncer was standing at the door, and he
turned around he saw some kind of scuffle. I'm not
sure exactly what was going on. I was just focusing
(03:31):
on the guy who had his arm around my collar
and squeezing my shirt, you know. And the bouncer grabbed
my shoulder and says, hey, you gotta get out of here.
So I left, you know, I obliged. I'm not going
to sit there and argue, hey, I deserve to stay,
I don't, you know. So I walk out and the
bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but you
(03:53):
were the closest guy to me, and I just had
to get a grip on the situation. So I left.
I want a seven eleven store to get some coffee.
And you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well,
all my friends are inside. I came with them. At
this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although
(04:14):
I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do
I get home? Uh? Do I go tell my friends?
And you know, we're everybody doesn't have a cell phone, no,
nothing like that. That's just not going on. So, you know,
maybe a few people at that time, if I recall correctly,
had what they called pages. Yeah, so I'm thinking what
(04:35):
do I do? So I start walking back toward the
bar and saying, maybe I can see someone outside, make
sure everyone my friends knew at least I was kicked
out and that I'm going home, or maybe they're leaving
too soon. I'll get her ride. So I started walking
back to the bar and um, there's a huge parking
lot on one of the sides of the lock Stock
(04:56):
and Barrel bar or pub whenever you call it, And
then I see a group there's altercation and there's yelling
and screaming, but I walk a little closer because I,
you know, I didn't think it involved me and didn't
at that time. It's also the way back to the
bar that I have to go, so I get a
little closer and it seems these guys are just like
(05:18):
arguing and screaming with each other some some dumb stuff.
In my mind, I'm like, oh, there's a couple of
drunk folks out here arguing, you know, has nothing to
do with me. And I go to walk past them
and one of the guy's points at me and says, hey,
there's the guy from from the bar. In my head,
I'm just like, oh my god, and I'm thinking, is
(05:39):
that one of the guys who had me by the
collar or one of his friends. I'm like, jeez, it
wasn't enough that I just got kicked out of the bar.
Now now now they're like, hey, that's him, Like so um.
I kind of steer around the group to get to
the sidewalk because I'm don't want anything to do with that,
and the guys still yelling and it looks like he
wanted to come after me or to hit the tone
(05:59):
of his voice. So, you know, and I'm a small guy,
you know. At that time, I think I weighed like
a dty five pounds at you know, five nine, so
that's probably as light as you can get. You know.
I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs
and everything. And you know, these guys are some there.
We're both actually football players. So it's very intimidating for me. Yeah,
(06:20):
and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like, this
is not a great night so far. But yeah, exactly exactly,
but it's about to get a lot worse. It's about
to get a lot worse. In fact, that was the
beginning of the next ten years of of downward spiral,
you know, until the light, so until the hard fought
light that is. So I managed to get past them
(06:41):
and past them right across the street as the train station.
I walked past them. I said, I'm out of here.
I'm going to the train station. And it's this downstairs
in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs, it's maybe like thirty steps
and um, you know, it's a big carve out and
it's kind of like, you know, a dip in the ground.
So it's like a big co chamber right there, because
(07:01):
there's you know, concrete walls all around here in this
down in this pit in the middle of Pleasantville. And
I started hearing all this yelling and screaming from the
bar and it's just echoing down there, and I'm just thinking,
what what is going on there? So I get I
get nervous a little because one I was just kicked
out of the bar to the guys were saying, hey,
(07:23):
there's that guy. So I'm like, you know, I just
didn't feel safe, Like what happens if one of them,
in their drunken stupor says, hey, I saw that guy
go down the train station steps. Let's go find them,
you know, And this this is what's going through my mind.
At least, you know, I think I thought it was
reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not
a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big person. So
(07:47):
I come back up the steps of the train station
and I just kind of positioned myself right next to
the police station door, which is on the other side
of the train station. And when I hear the train coming,
I'll walk down and grab the train. So I'm and
I'm laughing, but it's like, actually, all of this sounds
very rational to me. Actually, you know you're I mean,
(08:10):
that's you're going to go to the police station for protection.
At the time I thought it was too but you know,
in hindsight, I see that every step I made I
was was apparently, you know, a step toward the fatal
results which which occurred, and you couldn't have predicted that.
So you go to the police station. Now it's about, well,
we actually know because there's there's time stamps and stuff. Right,
(08:32):
we know you went to the police station at one
twelve in the morning, right, and then and then what happened.
I was outside waiting to listen to the train to
go back down just for safety reasons alsome to hear
tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking,
is that related to the fight that the folks get
into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are
(08:54):
they driving around looking for people? It's it's going to
be one of those like brawls between villages, you know,
because there's rivalries in in some of these towns, like
football rivalries or whatever, Hawthorne, west Lake. And I was thinking, uh,
maybe something like that's going on. I'm outside and I
hear these tire screations, and all of a sudden, I
hear these some it was women's voices, and it sounded
(09:17):
like they were screaming, like a horror film or something
like that. My heart just jumped out of me at
that time, and I ran into the police station and
there was a glass wall there in the desk officer
and she's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, well, listen,
I was just coming from down the road from you know,
the seven eleven, walking back past the lock stock and barrel,
(09:41):
and um, there was some guys that were after me,
and I'm a little intimidated to wait down here by
the train station alone. And I just worried that they
might come and find me, and I guess fight me.
That's what's going through my mind. At least. I asked
if I could get a ride to uh police station
next door, because in Westchester the train stations are probably
(10:03):
like a mile apart, you know. And the officer said, yeah,
come here here some water. Sure I can give you
a ride to the Hawthorn train station, no problem, give
me a second. And so I sat down. I'm I'm
drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I feel like,
you know, that's it. I did what I had to
do to take care of myself, at least for that moment.
(10:24):
I'll be able to get a ride to the train station,
go home, and and that'll be that about it. I
guess less than a minute around around that time goes
by in the officer comes back around to me and says, hey, listen,
I can give you a ride, but I've got to
go run and answer this call. And I don't know
what time I'm coming back, so I can give you
(10:46):
a ride, but you have to wait, and I have
no idea what I'm coming back. So I said, okay,
well thanks, and then he just like gunned it out
the door. So I'm sitting there and I finished my water,
and I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my
ride and I do have to get home, So I
get up and I leave, and you know, eventually I
find my way home that night, And I thought that
(11:09):
was the end of it. When did you find out
what actually happened that night at the bar, Because they
turned out to be a lot more than what you thought. Right,
A couple of people were stabbed. Well, Pleasantville is a
small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking about it the next day, Okay,
so yeah, so the word gets around. You find out
that there were a couple of people stabbed in the
(11:30):
bar that as it turns out, they were so drunk
that didn't even realize they had been stabbed until they
came out. But one guy was in the hospital for
a couple of weeks, so it's a pretty a pretty
serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops are trying
to figure out who did it right exactly, and how
the hell did they land on you when you were
in the police station at the time of the stabbing.
Let's talk about this. How did you end up getting
(11:50):
convicted because most of the witnesses said you weren't there. Well,
I guess, you know, it's kind of tortuous to explain
how we got from A to B, but I'll give
it my best shot. So there was about two weeks
that went by. In the interim, I'm just getting all
these rumors, you know, and friends are talking about folks
(12:10):
getting stabbed this, and that the victims were found actually
down the block in front of the Bank of New
York and another bar, you know, but I kind of
put some things together and say, oh, that probably had
something to do with the altercation that was at lock
Stock and Barrel. And on January, I'm in Pleasantville, down
(12:33):
by the pizzeria. You know. My mom still lived there
at the time, as well as brothers and sisters and
a detective, Detective Mazie of the Pleasantville Police Department. I
guess he catches wind that I'm there, you know, and
it's I'm actually on the same block as the police department.
And out of the blue, he approaches me. And you know,
(12:54):
he's a real imposing guy. He probably weighed at least
two hundred pounds and I think he's close to six ft.
And he approaches me and he says, hey, hey, Keian,
come here, you know. And I walk over him and
he says, you come with me right now. You talk
to me what happened a couple of weeks ago. And
I said, well, tell me what you're talking about. I
(13:15):
don't know. He goes on about Saturday night, this and that.
I told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you
right now, but here's my card if you want to,
you know, calm down. And we'll make an appointment. I'll
come in and speak with you, but I have other
things to do right now. You know, I have a job.
I work evenings as a waiter. And he got so
piste off, like the anger in his face it was,
(13:38):
it was just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says,
you don't want to talk to me, then all right,
f you, and he jams his finger into my notes
and it like stung me. And I'm just in shock
right there, and I'm standing there, frozen, and I don't
know what to do, Like what's next? You know, it's
(14:00):
he gonna like drag me away? Is he gonna like
take me into a van? And I don't. I don't
know all this stuff. I'm like, you know, I'm at
a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away. I
stand there for a minute and then I walk away.
When I go home, art go to work, my day
goes on. I I contemplate calling him and make an appointment,
(14:23):
but I'm but I'm not sure. I don't. I don't
want to go and face more of that hostility, that's
for sure. Then, UM I think about two weeks go by,
and um, a couple of my friends call me up
or or tell me. I don't recall exactly when I
but when I see them or hear from them, they say, hey,
the police are out with a warrant for your arrest.
(14:43):
And I said, all right, you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah,
they came. They showed me the warrant and they said
they're looking for you. And I said, did you immediately
think that it was for the stabbings or did you think, like,
what the hell could they possibly be looking for me for? Well,
that's the only thing I could put my finger on.
It's not like I was out there doing all sorts
of stuff where they you weren't like a master criminal. No, okay,
(15:07):
So okay, So now they've got this warrant for your arrest.
Now what happens? Well, I call a lawyer and I
tell him a story. I said, you know, my friends
telling me there's a warrant for my arrest, and the
lawyers like, well, did you see it? And I was like,
well no, because you know then I probably would have
been arrested by the time I saw it. But I'd
like to know, how do we handle this? You know,
do I turn myself in. Do we call them, did
they come pick me up? And so we arranged um
(15:29):
a date for me to turn myself in on the warrant.
So that's what we did. And I think it was
February four when it turned myself in. I was I
was arrested. I was held in um County jail for
about a week without bail until I had a felony
hearing in Pleasantville. I want to the felony hearing, there
(15:52):
was two victims. One of the victims is testifying about
how he uh thinks that I stabbed him this and that,
and it was held over for indictment. I was indicted.
I went to trial and I was convicted. Of course,
you know, there's a lot more in between to the story,
but that that's uh, that's the timeline there. But both
of the victims, it was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes,
(16:15):
And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the time.
They were sad. They were so heavily intoxicated that they
didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came along
and lifted up their shirt and said, how come there's
all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk do
you have to be to not know you were stabbed? Well, Boyer,
according to his hospital record, he was His blood alcohol
content B a C was greater than point three and
(16:39):
that's all it registered on on his blood test. And
I think the way the hospital had it set up,
if you're greater than point three, I mean that was
that was all they showed. You know, they'll show point
zero eight point one, but greater than point three was
was the max. They don't go higher and that and
that's a state where you can um according to the consensus,
like you can black out, you whose consciousness you potentially
(17:02):
you could die from alcohol poisoning at that level. Let's
talk it for a second. I think for drunk driving
the limit is point zero eight, right, So when you're
at point three, that means you're about four times the
legal limit for driving, and you're getting to the point where, yes,
you can have acute alcohol poisoning and you can die.
And it's interesting because at trial, neither one of them
(17:24):
was able to identify you as the assailant, right, yeah,
I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them or
they saw me stabbed them, but they made conclusions that
it must have been me that stabbed them, and you know,
and that the jury was allowed to hear that and that,
and that they believed I stabbed them. That was a
real shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter
(17:47):
or to show the jury. Why Why did these victims
believe that I stabbed them when in fact I didn't.
Well we know now that there are a number of reasons.
The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know
lead to wrong flight identifications in so many cases. Right,
(18:07):
the police showed a photo lineup with you in it
and showed it to the victims and told them that
the actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a
number of things they did that are that are at
a minimum bad police work. And I think that's one
of the factors that happened in your case that led
to you being identified as as the sailing even though
(18:29):
you weren't even there. That's one of the main factors. Yes,
so you're a trial. How long did it take you
to get to trial? It took a little over one year,
so you're in jail the whole time I actually bailed out.
I was out on five thousand dollars bail, so before trial,
I was out on bail, and during trial, I was
I guess, you know, lucky enough to to be out
(18:49):
on bail. It's interesting that they set bail at five
thousand dollars, right, That would indicate to me that the
judge who set the bail was not very concerned that
you were going to be around stabbing anybody, because if
they were, they certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand.
Mean that's almost like a misdemeanor type of bail. Yeah, Well,
when we went to the felony hearing, I think the
(19:10):
judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses in
the case and set the bail at five thousand, and
I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing occurred
in February of and the trial occurred in February of nine,
so there was a whole year there to prepare and
you know, fix up the weaknesses. And I guess those
(19:33):
are nice words to use, because the real words I
should use is they had a whole year to destroy evidence,
to suppress evidence, to fabricate evidence, and to coerce these
witnesses to testify against me. So by the time I
went to trial, you know, it was pretty much guaranteed
lights out. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty incredible when you
(19:57):
think about, again, this is New York. You're a guy
who's not the typical defendant, you know, you you hadn't
really had a lot of altercations with the police before,
and yet they did things that are so beyond the pale,
including not handing over a bloody shirt and hat that
were found at the crime scene, right, I mean, and
(20:19):
then eventually claiming that they were misplaced. I mean misplaced,
that's a nice word. Yeah, that was That was just ridiculous.
I mean, I have no words to explain their reasoning
and doing that, or or how they explain why they
did that. It's just it's ridiculous. Not only did they
withhold exculpatory evidence, including the videotape that they knew had
(20:41):
a time stamp on it that would have placed you
at the police station at the time that the crime
was being committed, which is right there, case closed done.
That means they knew that you didn't do it, that
they withheld that, they intimidated your friend Eric, right, who
was in the bar. Yeah, well, I'd have to just
say he was he was not my friend, but I
(21:04):
didn't know who he was. Yeah, he was an associate.
I mean he he would have been a friend if
he was a a nicer person. Put I just wouldn't
call him a friend. Okay. So they intimidated the acquaintance
of yours named Eric Freud into implicating you. And we
know from either way the cop behaved towards you, actually
(21:25):
physically assaulting you on the street in front of the
pizza place. We know that there's a lot of credibility
to that claim. And then they also threatened the bouncer
if he didn't implicate you, right, so they I mean,
I don't want to believe that police behave like that.
I grew up and I still believe that. You know, listen,
most I think most police are good. I think as
(21:46):
a society we need police. I'm not one of these
people who's like an anarchist or something like. And I
always say I'm not soft on crime. I'm tough on injustice. Right.
I believe we need to have a system of laws.
We need to have people in place, police, prosecutors. The
old system has to function because it has to keep
society safe. But when it's turned upside down, it's just
it's it's so deeply disturbing to see what they can do,
(22:11):
how they can grind somebody like you up. So, Kiah,
now that you are a practicing attorney, and we're gonna
get to that in a few minutes, because some of
the stuff you're doing now is so fascinating. Looking back
on your trial, do you feel that you were represented
in an adequate manner? Well, I mean I don't. I
don't and I hope I never represent someone myself as
(22:34):
an attorney. Now, the way I was represented at trial
by my attorney, then there was a lot of problems
there with the defense. At the same time, I have
to say to myself, well, how can a defense truly
be effective if all the evidence is being withheld from
(22:55):
the defense's You know, yeah, I mean you didn't have
much of a chance. He would have needed the Clarence
Darrow or the modern day version be Barry Schecked representing
you to give yourself a fighting chance, and that's clearly
not what you had. You weren't a rich guy, right,
You couldn't afford the dream Team. I was on financial
aid going to community college at that time. I had
(23:18):
to put it politely, you were fucked, right, But then
you got to trial, it was already it basically was
a formality. They were they were gonna they had you,
they were gonna get you. And that's exactly what they did.
(23:43):
You get convicted and sentenced to what seven to fourteen years.
I'm trying to imagine what was going through your mind
when that happened. Well, like you had just said a
few minutes ago, in your America, this doesn't happen. This
type of behavior from police officers doesn't happen. And that's
(24:06):
what I was thinking too, even after my arrest and
during my trial, you know, and all I keep thinking is,
you know, there's no way that the jury would convict me,
or this judge will allow this even to get to
a verdict based on this evidence. And I know I'm innocent,
(24:26):
and I feel like, you know, that doesn't happen. You
don't get convicted of things you didn't do. Not in
my America, right, And the last thing I think in
my mind is that everyone would simply jump on board
and push my head under the water. That's the last
thing I thought would happen. And the whole time I
(24:47):
was in prison, I thought, surely someone come with a
helping hand and see see the injustice that has occurred here.
But you know that that doesn't happen, you know, and
you're stuck, always hoping for the next level. When you're
in prison. At first it's oh, you know, you get arrested,
I'll be released at the felony hearing. They'll see this
(25:07):
was a mistake, you know. But that doesn't happen, and
the jury will see and the judge will see, and
maybe even the prosecutor will see that I'm innocent. You know,
these are actually kind of naive thoughts looking back, they
were naive thoughts. I mean, they're they're idealistic thoughts. Yeah,
you really can't ignore that. Oftentimes police and prosecutors have
a motive to get a conviction, which doesn't always equate
(25:32):
with justice. No, and that's the reasonable doubt standard is
something that needs to be reinforced into everyone's head. There
you have to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In
your case, there was tons of reasonable doubt. Even though
a huge percentage of the evidence, and the most important
evidence was with hell, there was still reasonable doubt and
you still had a story to tell that that should
(25:54):
have at least put some one of two of the
jurors in a position to say, I can't it reasonably
convict this guy. Which prison did you get sent to? Well, initially,
I mean Westchester County Jail, almost almost for like a
year there. It turns out that they apparently they forgot me.
(26:14):
That's what I was told. After I was convicted, my
bells revoked. I go to Westchester County Jail, and everybody,
um I see coming in after pleading guilty or convicted
their upstate within two weeks. And there I am eight
nine months later, and I didn't know what was going on.
So I actually called my mom and I said, can
you call the jail and find out what's going on.
(26:37):
It's supposed to be out of here to go upstate.
Not like I was like, hey, let's go up state,
but in the county. It's pretty rough conditions Westchester County Jail.
I mean basically don't get to see anybody or anything.
It's no sunlight. It's pretty tough. So she called and
she said, well, the state says they forgot you here,
so they don't they didn't know, you know, whatever paperwork error.
(26:59):
So I think in July I shipped up state to
Downstaate Correctional Facility, which is in Fishkill, New York. After
my mom called and I figured out that I was
lingering over there in the county jail for a better
half of a year. And that tells you something about
just how bad jails are. And I think it's important
for people to realize that you don't see the sunlight
(27:20):
thinking about that. How insane is it that you, an
innocent man, is actually asking can you please transfer me
to it? Was that a maximum security prison? Yeah, so
you're attracted transferred to a maximum security prison. So in
prison now you're you're in this it even it sounds
it just sounds scary right downstairs, just sounds like it
(27:41):
was prison in general was it was very, very scary
and intimidating. How did you survive in this environment? Well,
the first thing I had to do was I guess,
observe what's going on and find out what what I
want to be involved with. So when I went up state,
(28:01):
or even it started in the county jail, I realized
that there's a lot of folks there in prison, in
jail in general, who had or have drug problems and all.
And there's no doubt that they continue to use drugs
while in prison. And there's another large group which tends
to gamble all the time. Some of them they'll talk
(28:22):
to you, you know, without strangling. You are are rippons
with about japage, right, So you know as a young,
skinny twenty two year old that I was, and they'd say,
they give some advice and they say, stay away from
gambling and drugs and you're going to increase your chances
of not getting a shank in the back. And I thought,
(28:42):
you know, that really made sense. So I'm really not
a gambler to begin with, you know, And the most
I ever did back in high school was sunk some pots.
So I thought, hey, I'm good. You know, I wasn't
the type of guy who had proved myself. You know,
that's not what I was there for. I wasn't there
to earn my stripes in prison. You know. I was
(29:04):
there because for things I didn't do. You know, I
was not a big bad dude, and I think I am.
I have ability to make people laugh as well and
feel comfortable around me. So a lot of folks, a
lot of folks felt a closeness or ability to talk
(29:25):
to me, and that includes you know some of the
gang leaders, some of the old timers. You know, these
are big time dudes in jail. They head up the
gangs and and you know, I would talk with them,
and they seem to be more you know, in control
and calm. I guess because of their you know, a
long experience. They were no longer going out doing wild things.
(29:45):
Those were the younger folks in the prison generally, who
are like stabbing up people or are doing crazy stuff
for no reason. So I think I made I guess
you could say, friends or whatever with with a few
of them, and they respected me and think they knew
that you were innocent. No, to be honest with you,
that's probably the last thing you want to do going
(30:07):
up state because there are folks there. They will pray,
people prey on any whiff of weakness, any whiff of weakness,
and it's really intense like that, and you just have
to learn really quick what people interpret as weakness, because
you will instantly get preyed upon. Like, for example, crossing
(30:31):
my legs right here, right, No big deal. You look
at it, you see anything go up there. It's twenty
two years old and you're crossing your legs and in prison.
The environment is it's so homophobic, it's unreal. It's on real,
but that's the standard and it's fully accepted. And that's
(30:54):
just the machismo the male line there. It's so homophobic.
You cross your legs, are you do anything that's considered
not macho, and you're instantly labeled as weak or soft
and or gay, and then you're preyed upon as someone
who can be made fun of, our stolen from or
(31:14):
a chump or a punk or whatever. So you really
have to watch out for anything like that in the
outside world, which you're just being yourself, you know, crossing
my legs whatever. I mean, I'm not gay, but it
wouldn't matter. I'm just saying any any indication. At the
same time, you know, there's people that that sniff out
newcomers and they'll try to watch your body language, how
(31:37):
you hold your shoulders, and if and if there's a
piece of weakness, they'll come up and they'll try to
be your friend or this or that. You know, it
might not find out for weeks later that they're actually
preying on you, praying on your weakness to find out
so that they can basically wrap you up in a
corner someplace and demand your commissary. And I've seen this
(31:58):
happen to so many people. It's rather sad. If that
works out, then they go on to the next level
of intimidation and they'll they'll have people call their family
at home and say, hey, can you send me some
pack of cigarettes? Can you send me some money? I'm
in trouble here, and that money will go to, you know,
an extort or someone else under threat of rape or
(32:18):
or getting beat up, and and and then oftentimes you
know it does lead to rape. But the person who
you know, who's victimizing there is is just really a
real intimidated person. It's also terrifying the whole idea of
the eggshells you're walking on and having to learn a
whole new, twisted culture and programming. And it's got to stop.
(32:39):
I mean, being sent to prison shouldn't mean being tortured.
There should be some some dignity in this process, and
that is it's an affront. Two should be a front
to everybody's sensibility and everybody's sense of fairness. So so
here's where things get really nuts. Kean on November seven teen,
(33:00):
two thousand and seven, during a dinner at your family's home.
Your dad was talking about how much he missed you
and wish you were there and everything else, and then
a crazy, crazy thing happened. And I don't know how
easy this is for you to even talk about, but
I mean, do you want to tell what happened or
you want me to do it? Go ahead and then
I'll fill in the blanks. So, having read the story,
(33:22):
it was at that time that your brother, I think
his name is pronounced Cavan, right, your brother Cavan, began
weeping at the dinner table and admitted that he, in
fact was the culprit. And I'm getting the chills as
I'm saying this, and I'm trying to picture what the
hell was going through your parents minds at this point
in time, right, I mean, here they are talking about
(33:42):
how much they miss you, as any parent would, and
now learning not only that in fact, everything you've been
saying all along was true, that you were innocent, but
that the actual perpetrator is sitting at the dinner table
with them, is your brother. Things start to progress from there, right,
tell me how that things start to move at that point,
because a new hearing of ultimately is held at which
(34:03):
he's brought to the stand. Well, just to give you,
I guess an abbreviated step by step timeline there. So
after that um evening, you know, my father and brother, sisters.
Eventually they came and saw me and UH and told
me what occurred, and I said, okay, well this is
what we should do now. Eventually it led to affidavits
(34:27):
reciting his statements, the confession to stabbing the two individuals
being included an emotion what they call UH for fort
emotion in New York, which is UH what you do
after direct appeal to get facts off the record in
and that was filed and that resulted in a hearing.
Following the hearing, my conviction was vacated and a new
(34:49):
trial was ordered based on the confession of my brother,
as well as some other evidence which developed during the hearing.
But wait minute, be before we get to that. I'm
at a loss to imagine what that meeting was like.
Was it both of your parents that came to the
prison to tell you this news? No, my dad, Yeah,
(35:11):
my mom was in Chicago at that time. So your
dad comes to the prison and tells you that, in fact,
your brother had admitted that it was it was he
who had committed this crime for which you have now
had eight years of your life stolen from you in
the most terrible way. I mean, what was that like? Um, well,
(35:36):
different people will have different reactions if they were in
my position. But for me, I can tell you it
was simply a feeling of relief. I just felt relieved
because now you could see light at the end of
the tunnel. Well, that's that's logical. You didn't feel rage.
(35:57):
It was relief for a while. That ray did come.
I mean I I did throughout the years that followed. Um,
you know, possibly up until just a few years ago.
All right, don't talk to my brother right now. For
variety reasons. Obviously, you know, there's what happened here is
one of them. But um, in the beginning, for at
(36:17):
least a few months, it was just relief. It was
just relief. You know, I was sitting there, stuck in prison,
and and I couldn't I just couldn't figure out why
I am there? How you know, how the state could
have so much power over an individual's liberty with with
without without providing enough circuit breakers, enough safety nets, you know,
(36:40):
And I'm still there, amazingly as as fate would have
it on septemberd and eight, which was your thirty third birthday. Right,
You've got the best birthday present you could imagine. I
definitely did you want to talk about that? Well? I
was upstate, you know, where was I at this time? Hime?
I think I was at Sing Sing Correctional facility. And
(37:03):
they called me down to White Plains and I walked
out in front of the judge on September. Meanwhile, I
had a retrial ordered by this time, but it was
just a retrial, and I think the prosecutor stepped up
and just said we would not oppose defendant's r O
R release right now. And I heard that, and I
(37:26):
was just like, I don't know, I'm luck atting lose
consciousness at that time, just just hearing those words. So
the judge caught me loose, caught me loose right then
in the court room, and I was in this state
issued clothing and I and I'm still surrounded by these officers,
you know, like a sergeant, you know, a couple muscle
(37:46):
bound officers and all surrounding me with handcuffs and and
I couldn't believe it. So what happened? Did they take
the handcuffs off right then and there. But then you
had to still change. It wasn't like you walk out
into the daylight wearing a correction uh uniform. Right of
the they gave me what's called the court uniform, which
is like, I guess, it's always tight jeans. They always
(38:07):
give somebody two sides is too small. But it was
tight jeans like from the eighties. You know. So wait
a bit, but you're in the courtroom, in the room,
but you were still dressed in the state issued clothing. Now,
at what point did you change into these tight jeans? Oh,
right before I got into court, they say, here's a
beige sweatshirt and jeans here, you can put them on
(38:29):
so you don't have to go in front of the
judge in your prison greens. Okay, So at that moment
you almost collapse, right, but you didn't, And then did
the courtroom break out? That moment must be etched in
your memory permanently. I mean, well, if you take it
back about one minute before the judge said that, you
have an officer sitting down on my right side, an
(38:50):
officer sitting down on my left side, and an officer
behind me. And as they walk you in. Well, one
guy you know who feels like he has like the
hand of a of a guerrilla strength. You know, it's
always the case as a hand on your shoulder and
they're walking you to the chair. Sit down here, look forward,
don't turn to the right, don't turn to the left.
And to be honest with you, they mean that, don't
(39:12):
turn your head to the right. Don't turn your head
to the left. And I've seen people upstate or in
the prison facilities. You know, if you turn your head,
you you get taken down. And it's not a pretty sight.
You know. They don't just take you down, you you
get a beat down. So I'm sitting in this chair
and then have officer like you can feel the breath
on the back of your neck of these officers just
(39:32):
waiting two take down a convicted violent felon for even
moving your head to the right. And that was how
it was until the judge said R O RT and
I So I turned to my lawyer and I said,
can I can I stand up? Can I'm free to go?
(39:54):
And he says yes, and all the officers stand up
and I get up and I say, you're on or
I can leave. She says yes, you can leave. And
I turned the officers and I say, I can go
off those back doors. Yes. I had to ask the question,
like I must have just kept repeating it to every
single officer there before I even felt the courage to
(40:15):
take a step, because you gotta understand, for ten years
I had been under the gun, and if you make
any move unauthorized in a situation like that, you are
getting taken down and oftentimes you end up in the hospital.
And and there's no recourse for that. You know, you
(40:36):
turn your head when they say you didn't turn your head,
you disrespected direct order, and uh, you know the way
the law works as far as prisoners is concerned. Apparently
there you can get taken down and a knee in
the back and you know, a foot on the face,
I guess, but you know that it was hard to
believe and I and I and I really couldn't believe it.
I asked, I think I just repeated so many times,
(40:57):
can I go out that door? Kind of go out
that door? And I had to make sure because I felt,
I felt it was unreal. And were your parents and
family in the courtroom, Yeah, they started crying. So I
actually walked over back at them in the seat, and
I said, don't cry this, you know, this is a
beautiful moment. Should be happy. And so I tried to
be strong for them, and I tried myself not to
(41:20):
cry because you know, I didn't want it to turn
into one big weeping fest. And you know, I wanted
I wanted to see some smiles on their face, you know,
care about to my love then. And so we got
up and left, and I left with my sisters and
they took me to immediately, they took me to the
mall to get bear jeans, and you know, that was
(41:43):
that was a very interesting moment as well, because they're
picking out jeans for me, you know, because my style
is ten years outdated, and I'm trying these jeans on
and they're all tight, and I'm telling them, I think
this is really tight on my you know, my butt,
and they're like, listen, it should be a lot tighter.
(42:03):
We're letting you go with that. That's the style now.
And so I was like okay, and I tried them on.
I walked out and took me a few weeks to
realize that that was probably just ordinary jeans right there,
as opposed to when everybody was wearing more loose stuff,
and so I got used to it, still going ten
(42:24):
years later. So you ultimately graduate college and go to
law school, not just any law school, n yucho, so
let me correct you on that one. So I went
to n y U undergrad and I graduated with honors.
For law school, I went to Benjamin and Cardozo Law School,
(42:44):
which is Yeshiva University's grad school. You know, that's also
the home of the Innocent Project, and that that's my
that's my law school. So you went to n y U.
He went from Community College, Pleasantville, Waiting Tables, maximum security prison,
unbelievable ordeal and Saga two n YU one of the
(43:05):
hardest schools in the world to get into and graduate
with honors, and then to Cardoza Law School, which is
the home of the Innisis Project, which is again a
top top law school. And then you passed the bar,
which is again I mean, that's an incredible accomplishment for anyone,
much less someone who if your brain was was spaghetti,
(43:26):
nobody would it would be totally understandable. But you managed
to find this extra gear, this focus, this determination, is
drive and accomplish these great things that passed the bar,
and now you're in practice as a criminal defense attorney
in New York. Incredible, it's incredible, incredible story. And you've
won one lawsuit right already, for yourself, for myself, right
(43:49):
and now you're representing clients, including one whose story has
kept me up at night since you told me about it.
And I don't know if you're at liberty to talk
about the case. But what's what's really nuts to me
is that Kian now finds himself representing a case that
is eerily similar to his own. That is true. Absolutely,
I see a lot of things in common with my
(44:11):
case there. It's part of the reason why strives me
to help this man out. Are you able to talk
about that? I know it's an ongoing case, So it's
an ongoing case. I think the case you're talking about
I'm wearing a T shirt right now, right? Is that it? Yes?
So it's free f R E Darwin just like it
sounds the A R W I N roke r o
q U E dot com. Yeah, and has a little
(44:31):
information about the case and what we're trying to do
for for Darwin. And so I mean, this case it
seems like has a very eerie resemblance to your own,
you know, with the difference being that in this case
someone was it was a stabbing, but it was actually
someone who was killed. And Darwin has been in prison
even longer than you were, and it's still fighting for
(44:52):
his freedom. Yeah, he's going on quite a long time now,
but you know he's a strong individual. So hopefully he
can get through this and and we're sol it will
be something equitable and just for him at least to
gain his freedom again. And it's an important part of
your story too, So I want to talk about this
because this is where it's so important that people like
you exist and are able to spend the time and
(45:14):
devote the brain power and the energy and the inspiration
draw on your own experience to help somebody who was
wrongfully convicted and is now serving a terrible sentence in
a terrible place. And this is a guy who was
a young up and comer, right entrepreneur, running a pet
(45:35):
store right his own pet store, at twenty four years old.
I want to bring attention to his case and use
your story to drive interest in Darwin's case and helpfully
have him sitting here in your seat sometimes soon I
would love nothing more than to see that. For the
people listening, what can they do to help Darwin. To
(45:55):
help Darwin, well, you know, we have to hire a
gang expert. It was exclusive to New York and investigators
and all these things cost money. And when you go
to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's like pushing a rock
up a mountain. It requires so much effort because courts
are really not receptive generally, so it cards a lot
(46:15):
of effort and a lot of money. So on the website,
if someone would like to donate, it's right there. None
of it will go to me. I don't charge an
hour leafee, I'm I'm working pro bono and I will
continue to do so until I see justice done in
this case. But they can donate and it will go
toward a forensic pathologist, a gang expert, other experts that
(46:37):
are needed. Possibly paperwork that I acquire from the from
the d A or police or litigation you know, costs
court fees. It'll go toward that. So that's one way
that they can help and it will go a long way.
So in the nutshell, people please go to free Darwin
Rope dot com and see how you can get involved.
(46:58):
And help keyon in this remarkable effort that he's putting
forth on behalf of this innocent man who finds himself
in these strangely Twilight Zone esque circumstances that you found
yourself in twenty years ago or so. Ken, We have
a tradition here on wrongful conviction, which is that I
(47:19):
like to turn the mic over to you, the star
of our show today, for any closing thoughts. Well, if
folks are out there listening, obviously they expressed an interest
in the criminal justice system, are the injustice that's occurring
within that system. If you feel to help out, there's
always ways, and it doesn't always require giving money, although
(47:43):
every little bit does help as well. Reach out to
some folks and uh, if you know, if you're really
interested in and helping the movement, because there's plenty of
folks still in jail for things they did not do.
I think it's epidemic, if not pandemic, in this country.
And also thing we're still trying to get a hold
on how many people actually get convicted of things they
(48:06):
didn't do, and I think it's I think it's much
greater than then your average person anticipates. So don't be
afraid to reach out. Maybe volunteers some time. Hey, it
could be a good thing. You can donate to certain
charities and give it a shot. Might make you feel better.
(48:28):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
(48:51):
The music on the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast.
Rnful Conviction with Jason flam is a production Lava for
Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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